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Re: "Grateful Dead Phenomenon" - Salon's "The Well" Discussion

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Richard Morris

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Jun 15, 2007, 5:07:23 PM6/15/07
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"No one's noticed" <Mark....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1181941213.1...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
> http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/301/Nicholas-Meriwether-All-Graceful-page01.html
>
> -------------------------------
>
> We're pleased to introduce our next guest, Nicholas Meriwether, who'll
> be
> joined by fellow Deadhead and longtime friend Christian Crumlish to
> delve
> into details from Nicholas's new book, "All Graceful Instruments".
>
> Nicholas Meriwether is the Oral Historian at the South Caroliniana
> Library
> at the University of South Carolina. As a student, Nicholas attended
> Princeton and Cambridge. His special studies there focused on the
> history of
> the bohemians; this ultimately led him to create "All Graceful
> Instruments:
> The Contexts of the Grateful Dead Phenomenon."

What this newsgroup needs is a good historian ...
Of course, it couldn't be an *oral* historian!

Lfh

unread,
Jun 15, 2007, 6:03:57 PM6/15/07
to
On Jun 15, 2:07 pm, "Richard Morris" <jrmor...@trouserscomcast.net>
wrote:

> What this newsgroup needs is a good historian ...
> Of course, it couldn't be an *oral* historian!

Of course not. they'd obvioulsy have to be quite anal, wouldn't they?

Anyone care to open themselves up to such?

Fred

volkfolk

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Jun 16, 2007, 7:45:37 AM6/16/07
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"Lfh" <onetas...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181945037....@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

I'm sure that this is a post that we could all get behind

Scot


volkfolk

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Jun 16, 2007, 7:46:36 AM6/16/07
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"Richard Morris" <jrmo...@trouserscomcast.net> wrote in message
news:FKydnYU1vpoQYu_b...@comcast.com...

> What this newsgroup needs is a good historian ...
> Of course, it couldn't be an *oral* historian!

Shut yo mouth!!!!

Scot


mike flugennock

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Jun 16, 2007, 10:02:56 AM6/16/07
to

Huh, it'd beat the hell out of an _anal_ historian.


Oh, OK; as the Brits say, "I'll get me coat..."


--

.

"Though I could not caution all, I yet may warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools!"

--grateful dead.
________________________________________________________________
Mike Flugennock, flugennock at sinkers dot org
Mike's Political Cartoons: dubya dubya dubya dot sinkers dot org

mjd

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Jun 16, 2007, 11:08:09 AM6/16/07
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On Jun 16, 7:45 am, "volkfolk" <volkf...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Lfh" <onetaste2...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

I'll back you up on that...

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Christian Crumlish

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Jun 17, 2007, 11:34:13 PM6/17/07
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Anyone can pose a question to this interview by emailing
ink...@well.com

(Some old-ish timers from this newsfroup may remember me, Nick's
humble interviewer.)

-xian-

On Jun 15, 2:00 pm, No one's noticed <Mark.Ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/301/Nicholas-Meriwether-A...

Pepe Papon

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Jun 18, 2007, 5:56:09 AM6/18/07
to
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 03:34:13 -0000, Christian Crumlish
<christian...@gmail.com> wrote:

>Anyone can pose a question to this interview by emailing
>ink...@well.com
>
>(Some old-ish timers from this newsfroup may remember me, Nick's
>humble interviewer.)
>
>-xian-

Holy moly, I haven't seen you around here in years! Welcome back!

>On Jun 15, 2:00 pm, No one's noticed <Mark.Ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/301/Nicholas-Meriwether-A...
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> We're pleased to introduce our next guest, Nicholas Meriwether, who'll
>> be joined by fellow Deadhead and longtime friend Christian Crumlish to
>> delve into details from Nicholas's new book, "All Graceful Instruments".

--

~ Seth Jackson

MySpace URL - http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong
Songwriting and Music Business Info: http://www.sethjackson.net

Olompali4

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Jun 18, 2007, 7:09:39 AM6/18/07
to
On Jun 15, 4:00 pm, No one's noticed <Mark.Ka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.well.com/conf/inkwell.vue/topics/301/Nicholas-Meriwether-A...
>
> -------------------------------
>
> We're pleased to introduce our next guest, Nicholas Meriwether, who'll
> be
> joined by fellow Deadhead and longtime friend Christian Crumlish to
> delve
> into details from Nicholas's new book, "All Graceful Instruments".
>
> Nicholas Meriwether is the Oral Historian at the South Caroliniana
> Library
> at the University of South Carolina. As a student, Nicholas attended
> Princeton and Cambridge. His special studies there focused on the
> history of
> the bohemians; this ultimately led him to create "All Graceful
> Instruments:
> The Contexts of the Grateful Dead Phenomenon."

Thanks for linking this. Great read.

Andrew

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Jun 18, 2007, 1:46:11 PM6/18/07
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"Christian Crumlish" <christian...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1182137653.5...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...

One thing that caught my eye from this discussion was this little passage:

--"If there is a rumbling subtext in all this of "sheer significance," on
so many levels, then perhaps as good a way of summing it up is Dennis
McNally's comment to me, many years ago, when we were ruminating on
this; his comment on why the Dead were great was, "Three geniuses," by
which he meant Garcia, Lesh and Hunter; to which my quick response was,
"and seven virtuosi."--

What do you all make of this? While I can get on board the idea of Garcia,
Lesh, Hunter as geniuses (even though I think that term can be overused),
I'm not sure that I can get behind the idea of seven other virtuosi in the
Dead. For instance, Bob: while I think he is one of the most unique rhythm
guitar players ever, virtuoso would not be a word that would immediately
come to mind when I think of Bob Weir. The drummers, the keyboardists: these
aren't necessarily guys who I immediately associate with the idea of
virtuoso musicians.

Now, Donna, of course...


Message has been deleted

Deke_Rivers

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Jun 18, 2007, 2:02:15 PM6/18/07
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On Jun 18, 10:46 am, "Andrew" <amur...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> What do you all make of this? While I can get on board the idea of Garcia,
> Lesh, Hunter as geniuses (even though I think that term can be overused),
> I'm not sure that I can get behind the idea of seven other virtuosi in the
> Dead. For instance, Bob: while I think he is one of the most unique rhythm
> guitar players ever, virtuoso would not be a word that would immediately
> come to mind when I think of Bob Weir. The drummers, the keyboardists: these
> aren't necessarily guys who I immediately associate with the idea of
> virtuoso musicians.

Agreed with the three above; and maybe TC should be included, but no
one else. Closest one would be Kreutzmann.
pl

Andrew

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Jun 18, 2007, 11:58:19 PM6/18/07
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"band beyond description" <1...@456.com> wrote in message
news:5dnuulF...@mid.individual.net...
> they all are virtuosos, Andrew (save Donna). I always thought each of the
> band members was the best at what they did with their respective
> instrument, in the Grateful Dead amalgamation/construct. just exactly
> perfect.

Was Pig a virtuoso? Vince? Keith? I can maybe see arguments made for Weir,
the drummers, maybe even T.C., maybe Brent (although with all of those,
still I think virtuoso is stretching it), but I just don't see seven
virtuosi in the GD beyond Phil, Jer and Hunter...


Lfh

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Jun 19, 2007, 12:07:41 AM6/19/07
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On Jun 18, 8:58 pm, "Andrew" <amu...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Was Pig a virtuoso? Vince? Keith? I can maybe see arguments made for Weir,
> the drummers, maybe even T.C., maybe Brent (although with all of those,
> still I think virtuoso is stretching it), but I just don't see seven
> virtuosi in the GD beyond Phil, Jer and Hunter...

I don't see it in any of them beyond Hunter, period.

Fred

Pepe Papon

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Jun 19, 2007, 2:40:55 AM6/19/07
to
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:46:11 -0700, "Andrew" <amur...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

I'm not sure about Bob as a virtuoso, but I've always put him in the
genius category. 4 geniuses.

Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Andrew

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Jun 21, 2007, 2:13:10 PM6/21/07
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"No one's noticed" <Mark....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1182432160....@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Two thoughts from "The Well" thread that caught my attention:
> ----------------------------------------
> Jerry told Blair Jackson and me in 1981 that the band felt that they
> were leaving the audience behind a little too often in those shows;
> that breaks my heart, just a bit. So the managers, Ned told me, were
> urging the band to keep things a little more earthbound in the
> mid-'70s.

Yeah, if true, that is pretty sad ain't it.

Although, if by mid-70s, they are including '74 and '75 in there, obviously
the "managers" wishes were not really carrying a lot of weight.

> There were other factors in the grounding of the starship,
> too, of course. A band that forged its polyglot dialogue while blazing
> on Owsley's acid was bound to tell a less-soaring tale when it was
> cocaine that propelled the vehicle. They got lazy, too, and the
> audience gets some of the blame for that. A band that is applauded
> wildly and paid preciously for half-assed performances has little
> incentive to spruce up their presentation.

Hmmmm. "Half-assed performances"? That may be going a little far there. Is
this still referring to the mid-70s?


Christian Crumlish

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Jun 22, 2007, 6:41:29 PM6/22/07
to
> >(Some old-ish timers from this newsfroup may remember me, Nick's
> >humble interviewer.)
>
> >-xian-
>
> Holy moly, I haven't seen you around here in years! Welcome back!

Thanks, Seth! Good to see you too. Usenet doesn't seem to be part of
my daily reading habits anymore. Kind of a shame. Great to see the
newsfroup chugging along.

I've also been helping out a bit with the Dead.net relaunch, so I'm
still "around"...

-xian-


Christian Crumlish

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Jun 22, 2007, 6:47:05 PM6/22/07
to
On Jun 19, 7:16 am, band beyond description <1...@456.com> wrote:

> On 2007-06-19 12:58:19 +0900, "Andrew" <amu...@hotmail.com> said:
>
>
>
> > "band beyond description" <1...@456.com> wrote in message
> >news:5dnuulF...@mid.individual.net...
> >> On 2007-06-19 02:46:11 +0900, "Andrew" <amur...@hotmail.com> said:
>
> >>> "Christian Crumlish" <christian.cruml...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> >>>news:1182137653.5...@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> >>>> Anyone can pose a question to this interview by emailing
> >>>> inkw...@well.com
> OK, Pig was a little rough around the edges, and Vince, eh. Keith
> could be sublime when he wasn't junked up. But they all got better as
> a beast as the years went on.
> --
> Peace,
> Steve

Yeah, I could have challenged Nick on that one (still can, I suppose).
I don't even think of Jerry as a virtuoso, given his approach,
although his sheer talent and inventiveness might qualify him. Pig was
brilliant in his idiom. Weir is inspired at at times astounding in his
reach. Brent was talented but not a virtuoso or a genius. Kreutzman,
in his heyday was approaching virtuoso territory, imho. Phil's
obviously a genius and a unique and inventive player but I don't know
if virtuoso is the right word. Virtuoso really gets at a very
different kind of musical excellence from the kind the Dead engaged
in, where the holistic effect often exceeded any single player's
capabilities.

-xian-

Avant Grape

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Jun 22, 2007, 6:46:57 PM6/22/07
to


X-man??? Well I'll be... All those fine memories of Kamp Kimock and
splashing around in the water. ;-)

Hope you're well.

-JC

Lfh

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Jun 22, 2007, 7:15:17 PM6/22/07
to
On Jun 22, 3:47 pm, Christian Crumlish <christian.cruml...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Virtuoso really gets at a very
> different kind of musical excellence from the kind the Dead engaged
> in, where the holistic effect often exceeded any single player's
> capabilities.

HRYK. I don't think the Dead had any musical virtuosos, per se. But,
odd as it sounds, I think what they *did* have transcends virtuosity
and is planted firmly in the ineffable. What they were able to achieve
with almost scary regularity when they were on the top of their game
was something that many, if not most, of those who could be considered
virtuosos couldn't hope to approach on their best days.

Fred

Pepe Papon

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Jun 23, 2007, 6:12:22 AM6/23/07
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So, you're actually involved with the GD? Good job!

Pepe Papon

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Jun 23, 2007, 6:14:25 AM6/23/07
to
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:15:17 -0700, Lfh <onetas...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

FWIW, I recall a NY Times review of a 1979 MSG Dead show where the
critic made a comment to the effect of, "Garcia's virtuosity is beyond
question..."

JimK

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Jun 23, 2007, 8:10:19 AM6/23/07
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On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:15:17 -0700, Lfh <onetas...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Jun 22, 3:47 pm, Christian Crumlish <christian.cruml...@gmail.com>

Virtuoso (def.): A musician with masterly ability, technique, or
personal style.

Whether one believes that any of the Dead possessed masterly ability
or technique or not, it seems beyond question that as individuals and
as a group, the core members of the band certainly had a masterly
personal style.

JimK

Sherry in Vermont

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Jun 23, 2007, 1:10:52 PM6/23/07
to
> Virtuoso (def.): A musician with masterly ability, technique, or
> personal style.

My ex always said Steve Howe (of Yes) was a viruoso. Well, he also said
SH was a God.

I like - and can get quite happily lost in their music, but I
absolutely marvel at folks with the musical ability to talk about
*music*. I can play a CD. Also a record, 8-track, and cassette. Oh, and
reel-to-reel.

What are your opinions on Steve Howe's being a virtuoso? I think he's
pretty amazing, myself. But I also thought that of a guy playing paint
and garbage cans (plastic and metal) on the street in NYC!

Sherry in Vermont

Sherry in Vermont

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Jun 23, 2007, 1:26:02 PM6/23/07
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> My ex always said Steve Howe (of Yes) was a viruoso.

I have GOT to slow down when I type! I meant virtuoso, obviously.

Sherry in Vermont

Lfh

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Jun 23, 2007, 6:13:37 PM6/23/07
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On Jun 23, 5:10 am, JimK <jkezwind@comcastDOTnet> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 16:15:17 -0700, Lfh <onetaste2...@yahoo.com>

I guess it's kind of tricky, depending on what aspect of the def you
go with. I agree wholly on the last aspect re Jerry, Bob, and Phil. No
question, each had a singular style. Also, while none had that
straight out technical virtuosity, ala a Danny Gatton or Stanley
Clarke or someone like that, they did have far more than your average
player, along with a certain creative genius.

As for being a virtuoso based solely on personal style, that can get
dicey. Without question, John Lee Hooker had a style all his own, but
I don't think he could be in any way called a virtuoso, can he?

Fred

Lfh

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Jun 23, 2007, 6:47:16 PM6/23/07
to
On Jun 23, 10:10 am, Sherry in Vermont <sherr...@together.net> wrote:
> > Virtuoso (def.): A musician with masterly ability, technique, or
> > personal style.
>
> My ex always said Steve Howe (of Yes) was a viruoso. Well, he also said
> SH was a God.

I think Steve Howe has to be considered to be a virtuoso, and he was
certainly a god in the prime of his career. Throughout high school he
was without question my favorite guitar player and he's still in my
holy trinity of guitar players, along with Jerry and Frank, even
though he's nowhere near the player he once was and hasn't grown a
lick since 77.

Looking back through the advances in technique that have come along
since his heyday, it's easy to overlook how groundbreaking and
incredible he was. Like Jerry, he may not have been the most amazing
technician in any particular style, but the breadth of styles he could
play *while* maintaining a sound that was unmistakenly his own is the
stuff of genius.

Fred

Pepe Papon

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Jun 23, 2007, 8:32:33 PM6/23/07
to
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:47:16 -0700, Lfh <onetas...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I think Steve Howe has to be considered to be a virtuoso, and he was
>certainly a god in the prime of his career. Throughout high school he
>was without question my favorite guitar player and he's still in my
>holy trinity of guitar players, along with Jerry and Frank, even
>though he's nowhere near the player he once was and hasn't grown a
>lick since 77.

Steve Howe was better in the '70s.

JimK

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Jun 23, 2007, 9:24:09 PM6/23/07
to
On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:13:37 -0700, Lfh <onetas...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Go ahead, I won't stop you.

JimK

Lfh

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Jun 23, 2007, 10:26:51 PM6/23/07
to
On Jun 23, 3:47 pm, Lfh <onetaste2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I think Steve Howe has to be considered to be a virtuoso,

> Like Jerry, he may not have been the most amazing


> technician in any particular style, but the breadth of styles he could
> play *while* maintaining a sound that was unmistakenly his own is the
> stuff of genius.

So let me get this straight. Just like Jerry, Steve Howe was not a
master technician, but he has to be considered a virtuoso because,
just like Jerry, he had amazing breadth *and* his own distinctive
sound. But Jerry isn't a virtuoso?

Uh, that doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? So, in the interest of
consistency, I guess I'm gonna have to alter my stance, but I don't
know whether to pull Jerry up or to knock Steve down on the virtuoso
score, so I'll just say "fuck it" and leave them both with the musical
genius tag.

Fred

Avant Grape

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Jun 23, 2007, 11:55:43 PM6/23/07
to

Howe is the more technically proficient hence a greater virtuoso on the
guitar I would say. He seemingly has more in common with Jimmy Herring
than Garcia. But I question whether Howe had any improvisational
abilities. In fact, I question that a lot when it comes to prog
musicians who have no jazz background.

-JC

Lfh

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Jun 24, 2007, 12:35:11 AM6/24/07
to
On Jun 23, 8:55 pm, Avant Grape <avantgr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Lfh wrote:
> > On Jun 23, 3:47 pm, Lfh <onetaste2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>I think Steve Howe has to be considered to be a virtuoso,
>
> >>Like Jerry, he may not have been the most amazing
> >>technician in any particular style, but the breadth of styles he could
> >>play *while* maintaining a sound that was unmistakenly his own is the
> >>stuff of genius.
>
> > So let me get this straight. Just like Jerry, Steve Howe was not a
> > master technician, but he has to be considered a virtuoso because,
> > just like Jerry, he had amazing breadth *and* his own distinctive
> > sound. But Jerry isn't a virtuoso?
>
> > Uh, that doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? So, in the interest of
> > consistency, I guess I'm gonna have to alter my stance, but I don't
> > know whether to pull Jerry up or to knock Steve down on the virtuoso
> > score, so I'll just say "fuck it" and leave them both with the musical
> > genius tag.
>
> Howe is the more technically proficient hence a greater virtuoso on the
> guitar I would say.

Overall, I would say you are correct.

> He seemingly has more in common with Jimmy Herring
> than Garcia.

Huh? I'm not following this one at all, JC. Care to elaborate? I see
all sorts of similarities between Howe and Garcia, but I don't know
how he connects with Herring, though I only know Herring's stuff with
the Dead and Phil.

Howe and Jerry were both self-taught players with a deep appreciation
for American roots stuff, steel, acoustic and brought that to bear on
their playing big time. Both had remarkable melodic sense, and played
for the song far more than just wanking away.

> But I question whether Howe had any improvisational
> abilities.

Really? Certainly the stuff he was doing with Yes wasn't built to be a
jamming vehicle, but more of a play the composition and hit the marks
cleanly situation, but he improvised his solos all the time.

>In fact, I question that a lot when it comes to prog
> musicians who have no jazz background.

Again, prog by it's very nature wasn't based on improv to the degree
of jazz or anything the Dead were doing, so improvisation wasn't
nearly as key.

Fred


Julia

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Jun 24, 2007, 12:30:11 AM6/24/07
to
I'd qualify Pig as a virtuoso. He played music from his soul. Can't ask
for anything more than that. It showed. Maybe not on a technical level,
but that's not really why we listened in the first place.

Avant Grape

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Jun 24, 2007, 1:29:44 AM6/24/07
to


But that's the thing. Virtuosity is the complete opposite of soul when
you're
talking about musicianship. Pig was a performer first and foremost. He
was certainly not one who would be pegged as a virtuoso singer or
musician. Redefining the word's usage doesn't seem necessary or
appropriate. Better to just say that Pig moves you and you think he
sings with soul. Me personally, I think he was a pretty average singer
at best and his keyboard playing was pretty one-dimensional. Thankfully
the Dead progressed on forward from that to a higher level of
musicianship in their own playing and what they required from a sideman
keyboardist.

-JC

Avant Grape

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Jun 24, 2007, 1:30:10 AM6/24/07
to

Avant Grape

unread,
Jun 24, 2007, 1:43:21 AM6/24/07
to


Well both of their approaches to fingering, articulating notes and
playing scales have a very technical and precise edge to them...sort of
classicist, which tends to be the approach of just about all fusion/prog
musicians Jerry is the very antithesis of that approach. I'm not
saying Herring and Howe actually sound alike.

> Howe and Jerry were both self-taught players with a deep appreciation
> for American roots stuff, steel, acoustic and brought that to bear on
> their playing big time. Both had remarkable melodic sense, and played
> for the song far more than just wanking away.


But, I think the connection you see in their playing is deeply personal
and your own. It's a lot harder for me to build that bridge myself.

>>But I question whether Howe had any improvisational
>>abilities.
>
>
> Really? Certainly the stuff he was doing with Yes wasn't built to be a
> jamming vehicle, but more of a play the composition and hit the marks
> cleanly situation, but he improvised his solos all the time.
>
>
>>In fact, I question that a lot when it comes to prog
>>musicians who have no jazz background.
>
>
> Again, prog by it's very nature wasn't based on improv to the degree
> of jazz or anything the Dead were doing, so improvisation wasn't
> nearly as key.

Agreed. But there's quite a few prog-only musicians out there who
merely know how to play very fast and precise through scales, yet have
no experience in actually going beyond that. I chalk it up to those
musicians who never got comfortable playing music without music notation
to refer to. Whether Howe goes beyond that I have no clue. But I
haven't heard otherwise.

Now today, a lot of these young hot shot musicians who play prog can
play just about anything.

-JC

Avant Grape

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Jun 24, 2007, 1:54:05 AM6/24/07
to

Huh. Just was reading Howe's bio. Interesting that he grew up admiring
Jimmy Bryant and Les Paul. Now there were two very technical cats in
their day, who could certainly improvise I might add, though not in the
blowing session format that gave birth to modern jazz, fusion and the
extended rock jams we hear out of the Dead.

-JC

Brad Greer

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Jun 24, 2007, 10:14:55 AM6/24/07
to

I can definitely understand the comparisons you draw between Herring
and Howe - the "precise edge" is very apparent, to me.

>> Howe and Jerry were both self-taught players with a deep appreciation
>> for American roots stuff, steel, acoustic and brought that to bear on
>> their playing big time. Both had remarkable melodic sense, and played
>> for the song far more than just wanking away.
>
>
>But, I think the connection you see in their playing is deeply personal
>and your own. It's a lot harder for me to build that bridge myself.

Agree here as well - I don't see a lot that Howe and Garcia have in
common other than (apparently, I know little of Howe's background)
they were both self-taught. There's a huge difference in their basic
sensibilities, IMO.

>>>But I question whether Howe had any improvisational
>>>abilities.
>>
>>
>> Really? Certainly the stuff he was doing with Yes wasn't built to be a
>> jamming vehicle, but more of a play the composition and hit the marks
>> cleanly situation, but he improvised his solos all the time.
>>
>>
>>>In fact, I question that a lot when it comes to prog
>>>musicians who have no jazz background.
>>
>>
>> Again, prog by it's very nature wasn't based on improv to the degree
>> of jazz or anything the Dead were doing, so improvisation wasn't
>> nearly as key.
>
>
>
>Agreed. But there's quite a few prog-only musicians out there who
>merely know how to play very fast and precise through scales, yet have
>no experience in actually going beyond that. I chalk it up to those
>musicians who never got comfortable playing music without music notation
>to refer to. Whether Howe goes beyond that I have no clue. But I
>haven't heard otherwise.
>

Yeah, you're probably right here, at least in the general sense (like
you, I have no idea of Howe could actually improvise freely or not,
I've never heard him do it). And I agree it's a comfort thing -
improvising on stage, in front of people, isn't easy for a lot of
musicians. You have to be willing to take chances, not everybody is.
Because you can really miss the mark when you improvise and the fear
of failure really creates problems for some musicians.

When the members of the Dead talk about how valuable the Acid Tests
were to developing their style I think a lot of it has to do with
removing inhibitions - they weren't afraid to fail and so they were
willing to improvise on a group scale. The fact that the members of
the band were keyed into each other (also probably helped by the acid)
allowed them to pull some great shit off, which led to more confidence
and it all fed on itself.

Lfh

unread,
Jun 24, 2007, 6:39:32 PM6/24/07
to
On Jun 23, 10:43 pm, Avant Grape <avantgr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > Huh? I'm not following this one at all, JC. Care to elaborate? I see
> > all sorts of similarities between Howe and Garcia, but I don't know
> > how he connects with Herring, though I only know Herring's stuff with
> > the Dead and Phil.
>
> Well both of their approaches to fingering, articulating notes and
> playing scales have a very technical and precise edge to them...sort of
> classicist, which tends to be the approach of just about all fusion/prog
> musicians

Have you ever observed Howe's fingering, JC? One could hardly call it
classicist, and surely a classical player would sneer at the idea. He
hardly ever even uses his pinky, for god's sake. As for the precise
thing, I've heard many precise uber alles folks, complain that he's
too sloppy, so go figure.

> > Howe and Jerry were both self-taught players with a deep appreciation
> > for American roots stuff, steel, acoustic and brought that to bear on
> > their playing big time. Both had remarkable melodic sense, and played
> > for the song far more than just wanking away.
>
> But, I think the connection you see in their playing is deeply personal
> and your own. It's a lot harder for me to build that bridge myself.

I'm not saying they sound alike, either. I'm saying that they have a
lot in common. Add to the stuff I mentioned above the fact that they
are both mongrels stylistically. They wouldn't be considered virtuosos
in any of the styles they play, but they could play them more than
passably and could do so with a unique voice that was discernable
regardless of the style.


> >>But I question whether Howe had any improvisational
> >>abilities.
>
> > Really? Certainly the stuff he was doing with Yes wasn't built to be a
> > jamming vehicle, but more of a play the composition and hit the marks
> > cleanly situation, but he improvised his solos all the time.
>
> >>In fact, I question that a lot when it comes to prog
> >>musicians who have no jazz background.
>
> > Again, prog by it's very nature wasn't based on improv to the degree
> > of jazz or anything the Dead were doing, so improvisation wasn't
> > nearly as key.
>
> Agreed. But there's quite a few prog-only musicians out there who
> merely know how to play very fast and precise through scales, yet have
> no experience in actually going beyond that.

Undoubtably, but Steve Howe wasn't one of them. He was far more
creative and melodically tempered than your average chopmeister.

> I chalk it up to those
> musicians who never got comfortable playing music without music notation
> to refer to. Whether Howe goes beyond that I have no clue. But I
> haven't heard otherwise.

It would be pretty hard for him to be someone who never got
comfortable playing without notation, given that he doesn't read music
and never had any musical training.

Fred

Christian Crumlish

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 2:58:51 AM6/25/07
to
On Jun 23, 3:12 am, Pepe Papon <a...@mindspring.invalid> wrote:
>
> >I've also been helping out a bit with the Dead.net relaunch, so I'm
> >still "around"...
>
> >-xian-
>
> So, you're actually involved with the GD? Good job!

I wouldn't want to overstate the case. I did some consulting around
the setup and community planning for the Dead.net relaunch, working
with some folks from the Well and some folks from Rhino. No real
direct contact with anyone from the GD, especially since there's not
much of an entity there any more. What was GDM is now part of Rhino,
as I understand. Gary Lambert, who did the Almanac all those years, is
involved in the editorial side of the new site. So it would be a
stretch to call the Dead themselves my client, but I'm still happy to
play a tiny part in online Dead fandom.

JC, thanks for the greeting (though I confess I don't recall the
"splashing in the water" reference).

-xian-

--
I had one of those flashes, I'd been there before, been there before

Pepe Papon

unread,
Jun 25, 2007, 3:54:58 AM6/25/07
to
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007 06:58:51 -0000, Christian Crumlish
<christian...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 23, 3:12 am, Pepe Papon <a...@mindspring.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >I've also been helping out a bit with the Dead.net relaunch, so I'm
>> >still "around"...
>>
>> >-xian-
>>
>> So, you're actually involved with the GD? Good job!
>
>I wouldn't want to overstate the case. I did some consulting around
>the setup and community planning for the Dead.net relaunch, working
>with some folks from the Well and some folks from Rhino. No real
>direct contact with anyone from the GD, especially since there's not
>much of an entity there any more. What was GDM is now part of Rhino,
>as I understand. Gary Lambert, who did the Almanac all those years, is
>involved in the editorial side of the new site. So it would be a
>stretch to call the Dead themselves my client, but I'm still happy to
>play a tiny part in online Dead fandom.

Close enough - a GD-related project is very cool.

the150

unread,
Jun 26, 2007, 2:03:00 AM6/26/07
to
> MySpace URL -http://www.myspace.com/sethjacksonsong

> Songwriting and Music Business Info:http://www.sethjackson.net


Check out this great video of Phish doing "While My Guitar Gently
Weeps" live on Halloween in 1994. These guys actually covered the
whole White Album live during that show. Unbelievable. I know it's a
little off the subject of the Dead, but good music is good music,
right?

Check it out at http://jamminaway.blogspot.com/

Kelly Humphries

unread,
Jul 2, 2007, 11:26:22 AM7/2/07
to
Also sprach Christian Crumlish <christian...@gmail.com>:

> Anyone can pose a question to this interview by emailing

> ink...@well.com


>
> (Some old-ish timers from this newsfroup may remember me, Nick's
> humble interviewer.)
>
> -xian-

Where's Dario Wolfish, and what have you done with him?!

Jeff

unread,
Jul 2, 2007, 12:12:42 PM7/2/07
to
Kelly Humphries wrote the following on 07/02/07 09:26:

Do you mean Wereo Doltish?

SkyYellow...@hotmail.com

unread,
Jul 2, 2007, 12:43:32 PM7/2/07
to
On Jul 2, 11:12 am, Jeff <huckinfa...@tigger.net> wrote:
> Kelly Humphries wrote the following on 07/02/07 09:26:
>
> > Also sprach Christian Crumlish <christian.cruml...@gmail.com>:

>
> >> Anyone can pose a question to this interview by emailing
> >> inkw...@well.com

>
> >> (Some old-ish timers from this newsfroup may remember me, Nick's
> >> humble interviewer.)
>
> >> -xian-
>
> > Where's Dario Wolfish, and what have you done with him?!
>
> Do you mean Wereo Doltish?

no....No.....NOOOOOO!!!!!!

By even writing the name, you risk manifesting and bringing that evil,
timewasting beast to this site.......

Gods help up!

Christian Crumlish

unread,
Jul 15, 2007, 1:30:49 PM7/15/07
to
On Jul 2, 8:26 am, Kelly Humphries <kpiscesatspeakeasydotnet@> wrote:
> Also sprach Christian Crumlish <christian.cruml...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Anyone can pose a question to this interview by emailing
> > inkw...@well.com

>
> > (Some old-ish timers from this newsfroup may remember me, Nick's
> > humble interviewer.)
>
> > -xian-
>
> Where's Dario Wolfish, and what have you done with him?!

I ate him

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