[LH] the tide is turning...
yellowmattercustard
Bryan Dongray
> All be it at somewhat of a slow pace, but anything is better than nothing.
>
> http://ivaw.org/
All I get is "Access Denied".
Can you quote some of the page?
Bryan
yellowmattercustard
Access denied? Why? Don't tell me we are mimicking our friends in China now.
Do a search for Winter Soldier. It's a rather busy website at the
moment. Hopefully that is the cause of your connection issues and not
some bs interference from homegrown sources.
> Can you quote some of the page?
I'll try...here you go.
> Bryan
About IVAW
Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) was founded by Iraq war veterans in
July 2004 at the annual convention of Veterans for Peace (VFP) in Boston
to give a voice to the large number of active duty service people and
veterans who are against this war, but are under various pressures to
remain silent.
From its inception, IVAW has called for:
Immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces in Iraq;
Reparations for the human and structural damages Iraq has suffered, and
stopping the corporate pillaging of Iraq so that their people can
control their own lives and future;
Full benefits, adequate healthcare (including mental health), and other
supports for returning servicemen and women.
Our membership includes recent veterans and active duty servicemen and
women from all branches of military service, National Guard members, and
reservists who have served in the United States military since September
11, 2001.
IVAW’s strategy is to mobilize the military community to withdraw its
support for the war and occupation in Iraq. Therefore, IVAW is leading
the movement of veterans and GIs who are working to bring the troops
home now.
Today, IVAW members are in 48 states, Washington, D.C., Canada, and on
numerous bases overseas, including Iraq. IVAW has chapters around the
country and in Canada. IVAW members educate the public about the
realities of the Iraq war by speaking in communities and to the media
about their experiences. Members also dialogue with youth in classrooms
about the realities of military service. IVAW supports all those
resisting the war, including Conscientious Objectors and others facing
military prosecution for their refusal to fight. IVAW advocates for full
funding for the Veterans Administration, and full quality health
treatment (including mental health) and benefits for veterans when they
return from duty.
Also...from the website:
Why we're against the war
Q: Why are veterans, active duty, and National Guard men and women
opposed to the war in Iraq?
A: Here are 10 reasons we oppose this war:
The Iraq war is based on lies and deception.
The Bush Administration planned for an attack against Iraq before
September 11th, 2001. They used the false pretense of an imminent
nuclear, chemical and biological weapons threat to deceive Congress into
rationalizing this unnecessary conflict. They hide our casualties of war
by banning the filming of our fallen's caskets when they arrive home,
and when they refuse to allow the media into Walter Reed Hospital and
other Veterans Administration facilities which are overflowing with
maimed and traumatized veterans.
For further reading: www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/index.html
The Iraq war violates international law.
The United States assaulted and occupied Iraq without the consent of the
UN Security Council. In doing so they violated the same body of laws
they accused Iraq of breaching.
For further reading:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/imtconst.htm
http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/
Corporate profiteering is driving the war in Iraq.
From privately contracted soldiers and linguists to no-bid
reconstruction contracts and multinational oil negotiations, those who
benefit the most in this conflict are those who suffer the least. The
United States has chosen a path that directly contradicts President
Eisenhower's farewell warning regarding the military industrial complex.
As long as those in power are not held accountable, they will continue...
For further reading:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0714-01.htm
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/
Overwhelming civilian casualties are a daily occurrence in Iraq.
Despite attempts in training and technological sophistication,
large-scale civilian death is both a direct and indirect result of
United States aggression in Iraq. Even the most conservative estimates
of Iraqi civilian deaths number over 100,000. Currently over 100
civilians die every day in Baghdad alone.For further reading:
http://www.nomorevictims.org/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html
http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70A1EF73C5A0C758DDDA10894DE404482
Soldiers have the right to refuse illegal war.
All in service to this country swear an oath to protect and defend the
Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and
domestic. However, they are prosecuted if they object to serve in a war
they see as illegal under our Constitution. As such, our brothers and
sisters are paying the price for political incompetence, forced to fight
in a war instead of having been sufficiently trained to carry out the
task of nation-building.
For further reading:
http://thankyoult.live.radicaldesigns.org/content/view/172/
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qa6ZHYcG_EM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1dAXQeH7y9g&mode=related&search=
http://girights.objector.org
Service members are facing serious health consequences due to our
Government's negligence.
Many of our troops have already been deployed to Iraq for two, three,
and even four tours of duty averaging eleven months each. Combat
stress, exhaustion, and bearing witness to the horrors of war contribute
to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a serious set of symptoms that
can lead to depression, illness, violent behavior, and even suicide.
Additionally, depleted uranium, Lariam, insufficient body armor and
infectious diseases are just a few of the health risks which accompany
an immorally planned and incompetently executed war. Finally, upon a
soldier's release, the Veterans Administration is far too under-funded
to fully deal with the magnitude of veterans in need.
For further reading:
http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/
http://www.vets4vets.us/
The war in Iraq is tearing our families apart.
The use of stop-loss on active duty troops and the unnecessarily lengthy
and repeat active tours by Guard and Reserve troops place enough strain
on our military families, even without being forced to sacrifice their
loved ones for this ongoing political experiment in the Middle East.
For further reading:
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_loss_092704,00.html
The Iraq war is robbing us of funding sorely needed here at home.
$5.8 billion per month is spent on a war which could have aided the
victims of Hurricane Katrina, gone to impoverished schools, the
construction of hospitals and health care systems, tax cut initiatives,
and a host of domestic programs that have all been gutted in the wake of
the war in Iraq.
For further reading:
http://www.costofwar.com
The war dehumanizes Iraqis and denies them their right to
self-determination.
Iraqis are subjected to humiliating and violent checkpoints, searches
and home raids on a daily basis. The current Iraqi government is in
place solely because of the U.S. military occupation. The Iraqi
government doesn’t have the popular support of the Iraqi people, nor
does it have power or authority. For many Iraqis the current government
is seen as a puppet regime for the U.S. occupation. It is undemocratic
and in violation of Iraq’s own right to self-governance.
For further reading:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Our military is being exhausted by repeated deployments, involuntary
extensions, and activations of the Reserve and National Guard.
The majority of troops in Iraq right now are there for at least their
second tour. Deployments to Iraq are becoming longer and many of our
service members are facing involuntary extensions and recalls to active
duty. Longstanding policies to limit the duration and frequency of
deployments for our part-time National Guard troops are now being
overturned to allow for repeated, back-to-back tours in Iraq. These
repeated, extended combat tours are taking a huge toll on our troops,
their families, and their communities.
For further reading:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-military12jan12,0,7198945.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Q: Why do Iraq Veterans Against the War call for the immediate
withdrawal from Iraq?
A: There are several reasons why immediate withdrawal is the critical
first step toward solving the problems in Iraq.
The reasons and rationale given for the invasion were fraudulent.
There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq during the time of the
invasion according to US officials and former chief UN weapons inspector
Hans Blix. The idea that Al Qeada and the 9/11 terrorist attacks were
connected to Saddam Hussein and the Baath party were proven false in the
9/11 Commission Report. Members of the Bush Administration have admitted
that they “misspoke” in the run up to the war.
The presence of the US military is not preventing sectarian violence.
The US occupation of Iraq has proven to be unable to prevent sectarian
violence and halt an escalation towards a civil war. Despite having an
average of 140,000 troops in country since the occupation began,
internal violence and attacks against civilians and Iraqi security
forces have been on a steady incline.
The occupation is a primary motivation for the insurgency and global
religious extremism.
The insurgency can be broken down into many individually named factions
with various goals, beliefs, and techniques. However, our membership of
veterans believe that the occupation of Iraq is the primary thing
encouraging the insurgency and giving it legitimacy in the eyes of many
Iraqis. Likewise, other people of the Islamic faith are encouraged to
resist America ’s policies internationally based on how they perceive
our military operations in the Middle East.
We can no longer afford to fight this war of choice.
The financial burden is destroying our domestic programs that could be
used to protect us from natural disasters, provide medical programs, or
help improve education. We are jeopardizing the US economy and putting
strains on the budgets of important government agencies like the
Veterans Affairs Department.
National security is compromised.
Funds that could be used to protect our ports and transportation are
being stripped away while our National Guard units are on constant
deployments instead of being used to protect and defend us here at home.
The world is becoming more dangerous.
International terrorist attacks have increased and it has become more
dangerous for Americans to travel abroad. Approval for US policy has
decreased and the dislike of Americans has increased.
Our national “moral authority” is being undermined.
The US has lost credibility to much of the world as the defender of
liberty and freedom and our national identity is eroding. We can no
longer deploy our armed forces for peace keeping measures with the good
faith of the international community. We need to regain the respect and
faith of the global community. This begins by withdrawing our troops
from Iraq and helping the Iraqi people rebuild their country and society.
The majority of American citizens, Iraqi citizens and US military would
like to see an immediate end to the war in Iraq.
If we are truly a democracy and we aim to create a democracy in Iraq our
leaders will represent the will of the citizens and lead according to
their wishes.
The military is broken.
We are abusing the small population of armed service members with
multiple deployments while using inadequate vehicles and equipment. Less
than one half of a percent of the American population is serving in the
active armed forces, which is the least amount in the last century. Only
25% of the troops in Iraq are there for their first tour, while 50% are
there on their second tour, and the remaining 25% are there three times
or more. We continue to involuntarily extend soldiers with Stop-Loss,
recall them repeatedly for additional service using the Individual Ready
Reserve, and send soldiers with diagnosed medical problems into combat.
Donny Bravo
- Donny
................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-
Douglas Alan
> Don Quixote salutes you!
And by Don Quixote you mean W? As he seems quite intent on fighting
wars that can't be won.
|>oug
yellowmattercustard
> Donny Bravo <donny...@jesusanswers.com> wrote:
>
>> Don Quixote salutes you!
>
> And by Don Quixote you mean W?
Or, as the case may be...D.W.!
Lindsey Luna
better than what they've gotten in the past seven years.
I have a bumper sticker on my car saying "Someone Honest for
President". This has gone beyond party lines; the United States needs
a moral and honest government no matter what... and quick.
Hope everyone had a fun and safe St. Patrick's Day!
Lindsey :)
Albert Lust
>
> - Donny
At least he went out there himself.
--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users.
It has removed 5679 spam emails to date.
Paying users do not have this message in their emails.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
Donny Bravo
<eb51d0810803182126m11...@mail.gmail.com>,
linds...@gmail.com (Lindsey Luna) wrote:
> This has gone beyond party lines; the United States needs
> a moral and honest government no matter what... and quick.
Tell me when our country had a "moral and honest government".
Name other similarly sized countries with "moral and honest government."
Will Vigar
>
> In article
> <eb51d0810803182126m11...@mail.gmail.com>,
> linds...@gmail.com (Lindsey Luna) wrote:
>
> > This has gone beyond party lines; the United States needs
> > a moral and honest government no matter what... and quick.
>
> Tell me when our country had a "moral and honest government".
>
> Name other similarly sized countries with "moral and honest government."
Ah, it reminds me of the old anarchistic adage 'Whoever you vote for, the
government always gets in....'
Never a truer word.....
--
"A Knife and Fork in a World of Soup"
Currently listening to: www.myspace.com/vestfortysso
Douglas Alan
> In article
> <eb51d0810803182126m11...@mail.gmail.com>,
> linds...@gmail.com (Lindsey Luna) wrote:
>
> > This has gone beyond party lines; the United States needs
> > a moral and honest government no matter what... and quick.
>
> Tell me when our country had a "moral and honest government".
>
> Name other similarly sized countries with "moral and honest government."
For once Donny and I can agree on something: The US government has
historically been no better or worse than any other imperialistic power.
Where we part ways is with his claim that we can't do better. We can!
And the first step in doing so, it to throw the lying bastards out on
their sorry asses.
|>oug
Bill Kawalec
"Douglas Alan" <do...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:200803232321....@space.mit.edu...
> Donny Bravo <donny...@jesusanswers.com> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <eb51d0810803182126m11...@mail.gmail.com>,
>> linds...@gmail.com (Lindsey Luna) wrote:
>>
>> > This has gone beyond party lines; the United States needs
>> > a moral and honest government no matter what... and quick.
>>
>> Tell me when our country had a "moral and honest government".
>>
>> Name other similarly sized countries with "moral and honest government."
>
> historically been no better or worse than any other imperialistic power.
hmmmm, well, let me ask you this (do not, however, interpret this as meaning
that I don't think we can/should be better);
Is the average Cuban better off today than in the 50s?
(no)
Last question;
Many people today are lining up to leave China, Eastern Europe, and the
Middle East. And where do they all go? North America. Seems in many ways you
trust the judgement of non-Americans than of Americans, so..........
Douglas Alan
> > For once Donny and I can agree on something: The US government has
> > historically been no better or worse than any other imperialistic power.
> hmmmm, well, let me ask you this (do not, however, interpret this as
> meaning that I don't think we can/should be better); Is the average
> Cuban better off today than in the 50s?
I was refering to dishonest use of imperialism, so your comments are a
non-sequitor.
I *can* tell you something interesting though, about Cuba -- the life
expectancies there are as high as they are in the US. Were they this
high in the 50s? I doubt it. So, I guess the answer to your question
would depend on how one defines "better off".
|>oug
Bill Kawalec
> Bill Kawalec <billk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > For once Donny and I can agree on something: The US government has
>> > historically been no better or worse than any other imperialistic
>> > power.
>
>> hmmmm, well, let me ask you this (do not, however, interpret this as
>> meaning that I don't think we can/should be better); Is the average
>> Cuban better off today than in the 50s?
>
> non-sequitor.
....or you just don't have an answer.
>
> I *can* tell you something interesting though, about Cuba -- the life
> expectancies there are as high as they are in the US. Were they this
> high in the 50s? I doubt it.
Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the hell up.
yellowmattercustard
> Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the hell up.
Bill,
There is nothing wrong with striving for higher ideals.
As an American, you should be demanding it.
Running around with an *f.u.* attitude gets you nowhere, except
placement on a few more *shit lists*.
Douglas Alan
> > I was refering to dishonest use of imperialism, so your comments are a
> > non-sequitor.
>
> ....or you just don't have an answer.
Or you were making an non-sequitor.
> > I *can* tell you something interesting though, about Cuba -- the life
> > expectancies there are as high as they are in the US. Were they this
> > high in the 50s? I doubt it.
> Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the
> hell up.
You're right -- doubting doesn't make it so. The fact that it IS so is
what makes it so.
|>oug
pDale
> Bill Kawalec <billk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[someone wrote:]
> > > I *can* tell you something interesting though, about Cuba -- the life
> > > expectancies there are as high as they are in the US. Were they this
> > > high in the 50s? I doubt it.
>
> > Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the
> > hell up.
>
> You're right -- doubting doesn't make it so. The fact that it IS so is
> what makes it so.
>
<http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/the-numbers-behind-life-expectancy-152/>
Can a Cuban baby born today expect to outlive an American baby? That's one
contention of filmmaker Michael Moore in his indictment of the U.S.
health-care system, "Sicko." CNN, in a report that aimed to check Mr.
Moore's facts, reported otherwise. Mr. Moore has fired back <
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/news/article.php?id=10017> about this and
other factual disputes, and CNN has issued a rebuttal <
http://www.cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/Movies/07/15/moore.gupta/index.html?iref=newssearch
>.
[....]
A bigger question is whether life expectancy is a reliable indicator of the
overall quality and accessibility of a country's health-care system.
--
pDale
Douglas Alan
> Can a Cuban baby born today expect to outlive an American baby? That's
> one contention of filmmaker Michael Moore in his indictment of the
> U.S. health-care system.
I have no desire to debate about Michael Moore at the moment. I don't
know where he gets his facts, but mine come from the World Health
Organization, which says that the male life expectancy is 75 years in
both the US and Cuba.
> A bigger question is whether life expectancy is a reliable indicator
> of the overall quality and accessibility of a country's health-care
> system.
That's quite true. Nevertheless, the US spends more than three times
the per capita amount on healthcare where increased spending shows no
increased life-expectancy. That seems to indicate that we are doing
something wrong. We are a complete outlier in terms of costs, and yet
our life-expectancy is lower than *any* comparable country.
Here is a scatter plot I made using WHO data:
http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SAs1VMsOtha6Y__~EIYZM2~
|>oug
yellowmattercustard
> Here is a scatter plot I made using WHO data:
>
> http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SAs1VMsOtha6Y__~EIYZM2~
Fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to compile this chart.
Bryan Dongray
> pDale <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> A bigger question is whether life expectancy is a reliable indicator
>> of the overall quality and accessibility of a country's health-care
>> system.
>
> That's quite true. Nevertheless, the US spends more than three times
> the per capita amount on healthcare where increased spending shows no
> increased life-expectancy. That seems to indicate that we are doing
> something wrong. We are a complete outlier in terms of costs, and yet
> our life-expectancy is lower than *any* comparable country.
>
> Here is a scatter plot I made using WHO data:
>
> http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SAs1VMsOtha6Y__~EIYZM2~
Thank you. That was really interesting, and I can see why Cuba is the
place to mention about cost vs. age, since their "scatter dot" was an
obviously good one.
But I believe most of USA costs are related to legal fees and doctor
insurance against those claims American do all too often, which have
to come from somewhere, so medical costs increase!
I think aspects of quality of life include:
literacy rate: Cuba 99.8%, USA 99%
birth mortality rate (per 1000 live births): Cuba 6.04 deaths, USA 6.37 deaths
HIV/AID adults prevalence: Cuba less than 0.1%, USA 0.6%
Unemployment rate: Cuba 1.9%, USA 4.6%
Population below poverty line: Cuba NA%, USA 12%
Sources:
Cuba https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/cu.html
USA https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/print/us.html
At those pages this was a serious black mark against Cuba (in my eyes):
private citizens are prohibited from buying computers or accessing
the Internet without special authorization...
but the USA didn't have a shining report in the Illicit drug section.
Bryan
TTu...@aol.com
close to help determine whether one country has it any "better" than another.
The unemployment rate in the U.S. is going to be higher, simply because there
are more people here, which you'd figure would allow for more of the populus to
be unemployed at the time. Or not, but in this case it happens to be. (And in
both cases, we have no way of counting those who do not register as
unemployed.) And the last stat can't be used for comparison.
I do know this: Judging from what little I've seen of what Cuba looks like
now, from films and TV and the like, I'd rather be here than there. Some of the
shittiest areas of Phoenix look like the Trump Tower compared to the nicest
civilized areas of Cuba.
We've both got our problems,some of which I think would be best served by
opening up trade with Cuba.
That's enough before I veer even further off course of the original
discussion...
TT
In a message dated 3/26/08 10:54:20 AM, b...@dongrays.com writes:
> I think aspects of quality of life include:
> literacy rate: Cuba 99.8%, USA 99%
> birth mortality rate (per 1000 live births): Cuba 6.04 deaths, USA 6.37
> deaths
> HIV/AID adults prevalence: Cuba less than 0.1%, USA 0.6%
> Unemployment rate: Cuba 1.9%, USA 4.6%
> Population below poverty line: Cuba NA%, USA 12%
>
>
**************
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL
Home.
(http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Mikael Jakonen
Bill Kawalec wrote:
>Last question;
>Many people today are lining up to leave China, Eastern Europe, and the
>Middle East. And where do they all go? North America.
That's just plain bullshit.
Western Europe recieves more than it's fair share of Easter Europe
and Middle East migrations.
>Seems in many ways you trust the judgement of non-Americans than of
>Americans, so..........
What's so strange about that? A majority of Americans let their
belief in Jesus make them disregard reality. That's not sound
judgement. More than half of the population refuse to accept the
Theory of Evolution as the explanation of the biological diversity
that exists today. That's not sound judgement.
A quarter of the population decided to vote a moron for president,
and half the population let the first quarter get away with it. None
of that is sound judgement either.
___________________________________________________________________
Music is like vintage wine. It keeps getting better over the years,
if those who made it knew how to make it right...
____________________________________________________Mikael_Jakonen_
Bryan Dongray
> These are all interesting stats. Personally I think the first three are
> too close to help determine whether one country has it any "better" than
> another.
The point was the literacy rate in Cuba means virtually everyone can
read and write. The education system in the USA is getting worse
and worse for the poor end of society.
> The unemployment rate in the U.S. is going to be higher, simply
> because there are more people here, which you'd figure would allow for
> more of the populus to be unemployed at the time. Or not, but in this
> case it happens to be. (And in both cases, we have no way of counting
> those who do not register as unemployed.)
They quote a percentage, to make the comparison fair, 4.6% is far more
than the 1.9%.
Which makes me realize that the USA has a bigger percentage AND a bigger
total population, so it's VASTLY more absolutely number of people.
> And the last stat can't be used for comparison.
Correct.
My point was 12% are under the poverty line in the USA, which is
extremely high for a supposedly civilized country, which claims
to be economically wealthy.
> I do know this: Judging from what little I've seen of what Cuba looks
> like now, from films and TV and the like, I'd rather be here than there.
> Some of the shittiest areas of Phoenix look like the Trump Tower
> compared to the nicest civilized areas of Cuba.
Like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8
Called by some: So.Cal Shanty Town.
Bill Kawalec
"yellowmattercustard" <yellow...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:TJidnepAU9823Xfa...@giganews.com...
> Bill Kawalec wrote:
>
>> Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the hell
>> up.
>
>
> There is nothing wrong with striving for higher ideals.
>
> As an American, you should be demanding it.
>
> Running around with an *f.u.* attitude gets you nowhere, except placement
> on a few more *shit lists*.
it's crap like that that makes my ""attitude"" what it is! YOU made
ASSumptions about what my ""attitude"" is. You KNOW nothing.
If you took the time to actually READ, you would have seen that your buddy
there took an even bigger leap than you, just making shit up and saying "I
doubt it" with NO substance to back up his claim.
Shit. You people ain't even worth my time.
Bill Kawalec
> Bill Kawalec <billk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > I was refering to dishonest use of imperialism, so your comments are a
>> > non-sequitor.
>>
>> ....or you just don't have an answer.
>
>
>> > expectancies there are as high as they are in the US. Were they this
>> > high in the 50s? I doubt it.
>
>> Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the
>> hell up.
>
> what makes it so.
oh. so what you made up yesterday is fact today?? you work for NPR???
>
> |>oug
Bill Kawalec
--
I never read email at the Yahoo address!
"Douglas Alan" <do...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:200803261618....@space.mit.edu...
> pDale <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Can a Cuban baby born today expect to outlive an American baby? That's
>> one contention of filmmaker Michael Moore in his indictment of the
>> U.S. health-care system.
>
> I have no desire to debate about Michael Moore at the moment. I don't
> know where he gets his facts, but mine come from the World Health
> Organization, which says that the male life expectancy is 75 years in
> both the US and Cuba.
>
>> A bigger question is whether life expectancy is a reliable indicator
>> of the overall quality and accessibility of a country's health-care
>> system.
>
> That's quite true. Nevertheless, the US spends more than three times
> the per capita amount on healthcare where increased spending shows no
> increased life-expectancy. That seems to indicate that we are doing
> something wrong. We are a complete outlier in terms of costs, and yet
> our life-expectancy is lower than *any* comparable country.
>
> Here is a scatter plot I made using WHO data:
>
> http://services.alphaworks.ibm.com/manyeyes/view/SAs1VMsOtha6Y__~EIYZM2~
>
> |>oug
Bill Kawalec
<TTu...@aol.com> wrote in message news:c53.2eb3c2...@aol.com...
> These are all interesting stats. Personally I think the first three are
> too
> close to help determine whether one country has it any "better" than
> another.
> The unemployment rate in the U.S. is going to be higher, simply because
> there
> are more people here, which you'd figure would allow for more of the
> populus to
> be unemployed at the time. Or not, but in this case it happens to be. (And
> in
> both cases, we have no way of counting those who do not register as
> unemployed.) And the last stat can't be used for comparison.
>
> I do know this: Judging from what little I've seen of what Cuba looks like
> now, from films and TV and the like, I'd rather be here than there.
So would the people in rowboats in the Atlantic, trying to get to Miami.
THEY have a lot more credibility than anyone just spewing WHO
""statistics.""
Grow up, people!! ""Statistics"" can be used to prove anything. I once heard
a guy spend three hours on a radio show ""proving"" statistically that
smoking is good for you.
Bill Kawalec
"Bryan Dongray" <b...@dongrays.com> wrote in message
news:47EA9FA7...@dongrays.com...
> TTu...@aol.com wrote:
>> These are all interesting stats. Personally I think the first three are
>> too close to help determine whether one country has it any "better" than
>> another.
>
> read and write. The education system in the USA is getting worse
> and worse for the poor end of society.
>
>> there are more people here, which you'd figure would allow for more of
>> the populus to be unemployed at the time. Or not, but in this case it
>> happens to be. (And in both cases, we have no way of counting those who
>> do not register as unemployed.)
>
> than the 1.9%.
> Which makes me realize that the USA has a bigger percentage AND a bigger
> total population, so it's VASTLY more absolutely number of people.
>
>
> My point was 12% are under the poverty line in the USA, which is
> extremely high for a supposedly civilized country, which claims
> to be economically wealthy.
depends on HOW you define "poverty," doesn't it?????????
>
>> I do know this: Judging from what little I've seen of what Cuba looks
>> like now, from films and TV and the like, I'd rather be here than there.
>> Some of the shittiest areas of Phoenix look like the Trump Tower compared
>> to the nicest civilized areas of Cuba.
>
Bill Kawalec
"Mikael Jakonen" <trill...@bredband.net> wrote in message
news:6dgb9m$b8s...@ironport1.bredband.com...
>
> Bill Kawalec wrote:
>>Last question;
>>Many people today are lining up to leave China, Eastern Europe, and the
>>Middle East. And where do they all go? North America.
>
> That's just plain bullshit.
> Western Europe recieves more than it's fair share of Easter Europe and
> Middle East migrations.
>
What is their ""fair share.""
>
>>Seems in many ways you trust the judgement of non-Americans than of
>>Americans, so..........
>
> What's so strange about that? A majority of Americans let their belief in
> Jesus make them disregard reality.
fuck you, you slimy nazi!!!!!!!!!!
That's not sound
> judgement. More than half of the population refuse to accept the Theory of
> Evolution as the explanation of the biological diversity that exists
> today.
THEORY, airhead!!! THEORY!!! NOT a FACT, SKIPPY!! A THEORY!!!
DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?!?!?!?
(rhetoricsl question. the answer is obvious)
That's not sound judgement.
> A quarter of the population decided to vote a moron for president, and
> half the population let the first quarter get away with it. None of that
> is sound judgement either.
>
again, fuck you, you slimy nazi
yellowmattercustard
> again, fuck you, you slimy nazi
Such an angry individual. How sad.
Resorting to name calling will get you nowhere except on *another shitlist*!
Mike
news:nOSdnTY2LvP29Xba...@comcast.com...
>
> "yellowmattercustard" <yellow...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:TJidnepAU9823Xfa...@giganews.com...
>> Bill Kawalec wrote:
>>
>>> up.
>>
>>
>> There is nothing wrong with striving for higher ideals.
>>
>> As an American, you should be demanding it.
>>
>> Running around with an *f.u.* attitude gets you nowhere, except placement
>> on a few more *shit lists*.
>
>
>
> it's crap like that that makes my ""attitude"" what it is! YOU made
> ASSumptions about what my ""attitude"" is. You KNOW nothing.
> If you took the time to actually READ, you would have seen that your buddy
> there took an even bigger leap than you, just making shit up and saying "I
> doubt it" with NO substance to back up his claim.
> Shit. You people ain't even worth my time.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass, Cowlick!
--
"che passano"
Douglas Alan
> >> Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the
> >> hell up.
> > You're right -- doubting doesn't make it so. The fact that it IS so is
> > what makes it so.
> oh. so what you made up yesterday is fact today?? you work for NPR???
Hi, Mr. Bill. Do you mind if I call you that? So, you're claiming that
the life expectancy in Cuba in the fifties was greater than 77 years?
Instead of pointing the fingers at others, why don't you do the "putting
up or shutting up" and provide one shred of evidence for your putative
fact?
What's that you say, Mr. Bill? You can't?
Damn skippy.
|>oug
Douglas Alan
> > That's not sound judgement. More than half of the population refuse
> > to accept the Theory of Evolution as the explanation of the
> > biological diversity that exists today.
> THEORY, airhead!!! THEORY!!! NOT a FACT, SKIPPY!! A THEORY!!! DO YOU
> KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS?!?!?!? (rhetoricsl question. the answer is
> obvious)
Yeah, as in the "THEORY of gravity".
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here.
|>oug
Douglas Alan
> oh. so what you made up yesterday is fact today?? you work for NPR???
Actually, no, *The National Review* made up this fact, as according to
them, Cuba's life expectancy in the fifties was 59 years. Now it's 77.
Because I know that you are statistically challenged, I'll do the
arithmetic for you: That's an improvement of 18 years.
|>oug
Bryan Dongray
>> extremely high for a supposedly civilized country, which claims
>> to be economically wealthy.
>
> depends on HOW you define "poverty," doesn't it?????????
If you checked source I quoted, you'll see it's as defined by the CIA,
you can ask them.
>>> I do know this: Judging from what little I've seen of what Cuba looks
>>> like now, from films and TV and the like, I'd rather be here than there.
>>> Some of the shittiest areas of Phoenix look like the Trump Tower compared
>>> to the nicest civilized areas of Cuba.
>>
>> Like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnnOOo6tRs8
>> Called by some: So.Cal Shanty Town.
No comment on this? Why's that?
FYI: It is 93 second BBC news report.
Bryan
Bryan Dongray
>>>> non-sequitor.
>>> ....or you just don't have an answer.
>>
>>>> expectancies there are as high as they are in the US. Were they this
>>>> high in the 50s? I doubt it.
>>> Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the
>>> hell up.
>> what makes it so.
>
>
>
Making up facts is best left to Fox News.
Although other American Media is pretty much government propaganda too.
It's interesting that Bill uses the insult "Nazi", since there are
so many parallels between America and pre-WWII Germany, including
fabricating terrorist attacks, making up lies as to why to invade
another country, etc, etc... even by people who lived in Germany
and now live in the USA, they know it.
Bryan
Bill Kawalec
> Bill Kawalec <billk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> >> Doubting it don't make it so. If you don't have the proof, shut the
>> >> hell up.
>
>> > You're right -- doubting doesn't make it so. The fact that it IS so is
>> > what makes it so.
>
>> oh. so what you made up yesterday is fact today?? you work for NPR???
>
> the life expectancy in Cuba in the fifties was greater than 77 years?
> Instead of pointing the fingers at others, why don't you do the "putting
> up or shutting up" and provide one shred of evidence for your putative
> fact?
I made NO claims about life expectancy. YOU did, and you can't back it up.
Tell ya what, if you'd rather live two year longer in Cuba than in the
USofA, why don't you move there? Ya see, skippy, life expectancy in and of
itself means nothing. We're all terminal. You got any date about CAUSE of
death? It is entirely plausible that we have a shorter life expectancy
because of our standard of living.
Bill Kawalec
> Bill Kawalec wrote:
>> "Bryan Dongray" <b...@dongrays.com> wrote in message
>>> My point was 12% are under the poverty line in the USA, which is
>>> extremely high for a supposedly civilized country, which claims
>>> to be economically wealthy.
>>
>> depends on HOW you define "poverty," doesn't it?????????
>
> If you checked source I quoted, you'll see it's as defined by the CIA,
> you can ask them.
didn't ask about your source. I asked how you define poverty. what income
level do you call "poverty"?
>
>>>> I do know this: Judging from what little I've seen of what Cuba looks
>>>> like now, from films and TV and the like, I'd rather be here than
>>>> there. Some of the shittiest areas of Phoenix look like the Trump Tower
>>>> compared to the nicest civilized areas of Cuba.
>>>
Douglas Alan
> > Hi, Mr. Bill. Do you mind if I call you that? So, you're claiming that
> > the life expectancy in Cuba in the fifties was greater than 77 years?
> > Instead of pointing the fingers at others, why don't you do the "putting
> > up or shutting up" and provide one shred of evidence for your putative
> > fact?
> I made NO claims about life expectancy.
Yes, you did -- you made the absurd claim that it isn't immediately
obvious to anyone who has the slightest education in world history that
Cuba did not have a life expectancy of 77 years in the 50s, as the life
expectancy was only 68 years in the US in the 50s.
> YOU did, and you can't back it up.
Of course I can back it up, and I *did*. I don't live, however, to meet
your ridiculous whims for citations for the obvious.
> Tell ya what, if you'd rather live two year longer in Cuba than in the
> USofA, why don't you move there?
I never claimed that I want to live in Cuba. Please check your notes on
the issue.
> Ya see, skippy, life expectancy in and of itself means nothing.
That's where we differ. You see a higher life expectancy means that you
have a higher probability of living longer. You might want to write
that down too.
|>oug
Mikael Jakonen
Yes, in one fell swoop, Bill made it all clear where he comes from.
A Swedish child wouldn't pass his 9th grade displaying such
ignorance of science...
As for the rest of Bill's tripe: *yawn*
//Mike
Bryan Dongray
> "Bryan Dongray" <b...@dongrays.com> wrote in message
> news:47EBD4AD...@dongrays.com...
>> Bill Kawalec wrote:
>>> "Bryan Dongray" <b...@dongrays.com> wrote in message
>>>> My point was 12% are under the poverty line in the USA, which is
>>>> extremely high for a supposedly civilized country, which claims
>>>> to be economically wealthy.
>>> depends on HOW you define "poverty," doesn't it?????????
>> If you checked source I quoted, you'll see it's as defined by the CIA,
>> you can ask them.
>
> didn't ask about your source. I asked how you define poverty. what income
> level do you call "poverty"?
Interesting, as in an earlier post |>oug was chastised for his opinion
and not stating facts from a "reliable" source, but now you want my
opinion when I quoted a reliable source.
Bryan
Bill Kawalec
--
I never read email at the Yahoo address!
"Douglas Alan" <do...@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:200803272147....@space.mit.edu...
> Bill Kawalec <billk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > Hi, Mr. Bill. Do you mind if I call you that? So, you're claiming
>> > that
>> > the life expectancy in Cuba in the fifties was greater than 77 years?
>> > Instead of pointing the fingers at others, why don't you do the
>> > "putting
>> > up or shutting up" and provide one shred of evidence for your putative
>> > fact?
>
>> I made NO claims about life expectancy.
>
> Yes, you did -- you made the absurd claim that it isn't immediately
> obvious to anyone who has the slightest education in world history that
> Cuba did not have a life expectancy of 77 years in the 50s, as the life
> expectancy was only 68 years in the US in the 50s.
did not, skippy
I asked a fucking QUESTION (to which you have no answer).
>
>> YOU did, and you can't back it up.
>
> Of course I can back it up, and I *did*. I don't live, however, to meet
> your ridiculous whims for citations for the obvious.
>
>> Tell ya what, if you'd rather live two year longer in Cuba than in the
>> USofA, why don't you move there?
>
> I never claimed that I want to live in Cuba. Please check your notes on
> the issue.
3
LEARN TO *READ*, a-hole. NOWHERE did I say that you said you wanted to live
in Cuba. I mearely asked why the fuck you don't!
Your lack of reading skills explains MUCH of what you ""believe.""
>
>> Ya see, skippy, life expectancy in and of itself means nothing.
>
> That's where we differ. You see a higher life expectancy means that you
> have a higher probability of living longer. You might want to write
> that down too.
fucking idiot!
>
> |>oug
Bill Kawalec
no, I do not want your ""opinion"" (I know it's worthless). I want a number.
Fill in the blank;
Poverty is an income of less than --------- for an individual.
if any of you people could really fucking READ, you MIGHT actually learn
something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Bryan
>
Douglas Alan
> >> I made NO claims about life expectancy.
> > Yes, you did -- you made the absurd claim that it isn't immediately
> > obvious to anyone who has the slightest education in world history that
> > Cuba did not have a life expectancy of 77 years in the 50s, as the life
> > expectancy was only 68 years in the US in the 50s.
> did not, skippy
Did too.
> I asked a fucking QUESTION (to which you have no answer).
I've answered every reasonable question that has been asked of me,
including my sources.
> >> Tell ya what, if you'd rather live two year longer in Cuba than in the
> >> USofA, why don't you move there?
> >
> > I never claimed that I want to live in Cuba. Please check your notes on
> > the issue.
> LEARN TO *READ*, a-hole. NOWHERE did I say that you said you wanted to
> live in Cuba. I mearely asked why the fuck you don't! Your lack of
> reading skills explains MUCH of what you ""believe.""
When did you stop beating your wife?
|>oug
yellowmattercustard
> Bill Kawalec <billk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> LEARN TO *READ*, a-hole. NOWHERE did I say that you said you wanted to
>> live in Cuba. I mearely asked why the fuck you don't! Your lack of
>> reading skills explains MUCH of what you ""believe.""
>
> When did you stop beating your wife?
>
> |>oug
When he got laid.
Ted Jacobs
From: Douglas Alan <do...@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [LH] the tide is turning...
To: love-...@gaffa.org
Message-ID: <200803301743....@space.mit.edu>
Bill Kawalec <billk...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> I made NO claims about life expectancy.
> > Yes, you did -- you made the absurd claim that it isn't immediately
> > obvious to anyone who has the slightest education in world history
> > that Cuba did not have a life expectancy of 77 years in the 50s, as
> > the life expectancy was only 68 years in the US in the 50s.
> did not, skippy
Did too.
> I asked a fucking QUESTION (to which you have no answer).
I've answered every reasonable question that has been asked of me, including my sources.
> >> Tell ya what, if you'd rather live two year longer in Cuba than in
> >> the USofA, why don't you move there?
> >
> > I never claimed that I want to live in Cuba. Please check your
> > notes on the issue.
> LEARN TO *READ*, a-hole. NOWHERE did I say that you said you wanted to
> live in Cuba. I mearely asked why the fuck you don't! Your lack of
> reading skills explains MUCH of what you ""believe.""
When did you stop beating your wife?
|>oug
***
Hey |>oug,
I only get the chance to Read LH every few weeks or so, but every time I do there is little on-topic; rather every digest I read you seem to be arguing politics with a seemingly endless procession of out-of-their-depth huckleberries such as Archie Bunker here.
So anyhoo I guess I got a question here:
What makes LH's(and you in particular)such a retard magnet?
-ted
Douglas Alan
> So anyhoo I guess I got a question here:
> What makes LH's(and you in particular)such a retard magnet?
My winning personality, I guess!
|>oug
P.S. Hey, so how come you haven't commented on the wonderful YouTube KT
covers I posted?!?! Or on the great KT lyrics visualization I also
posted?!?!?
Bryan Dongray
What will I learn from answering a question?
Why don't you tell me what you believe poverty means?
Why don't you ask the people I quoted this from (ie the CIA), and I
suggest you don't use the same language, unless you want to be wisked
away to some secret prison, with no trial, no lawyer, no appeal,
just torture and abuse.
Bryan