Accents when singing ethnic ballads?
Daniel Briggs
(I think I remember a peripheral discusstion some time ago, but....)
What do you people do about accents when singing an ethnic ballad? In
particular, what do you do when the ballad is not part of your native
culture. I see two basic possibilities, both bad. You can either
sing it in your native accent, (in my case, West Coast American), or
try to mimic the source that you learned it from. (At the moment, I
am wrestling with some stuff from Silly Wizard.) In the first case,
you can rob the ballad of much of its character. In the second case,
you run the risk of sounding like an early Walt Disney movie. The
possibilities of mortal embarrassment are many! What to do?
--
This is a shared guest account, please send replies to
dbr...@nrao.edu (Internet)
Dan Briggs / NRAO / P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM / 87801 (U.S. Snail)
Greg Bullough
>Here's a question that I haven't seen kicked around too much recently.
>(I think I remember a peripheral discusstion some time ago, but....)
>What do you people do about accents when singing an ethnic ballad? In
>particular, what do you do when the ballad is not part of your nati
I've heard a number of PC (politically correct) folk-music mavens claim
that it is just awful to use the native accent when singing. That's usually
because they can't pull it off, themselves. And because they heard that
Ewan MacColl said they shouldn't (though he affected different British
regionalisms himself!).
However, whenever I've heard a Brit folksinger do an American ballad, they
do it with an American accent, if the ballad was clearly American in nature.
I *NEVER* want to hear "Handsome Molly" (the Appalachian version) done other
than with a gen-u-ine Appalachian nasal twang.
Silly Wizard was mentioned. If you listen carefully, you'll hear Andy
M. Stewart affecting the traditional Irish singer's inflection on
"Bridget O' Malley." Of course, he'll have an easier time of Scot's
than you will :-)
Similarly, I think the "Broom of the Cowdenknowes" would sound incredibly
stupid an an American accent. What it gets down to, is if the references
betray the origin of a song, it benefits from being sung in the language
of the original.
Note that I say "in the language." I think that for our purposes, American-
English, Scots-English, Irish-English, etc., ought to be thought of as
distinct languages. It's no different than singing a Spanish song in
Spanish, or a German song in German. Of course, as a singer of traditional
music, you ought to work just as hard at getting your variations of English
right as you would "foreign" languages.
Greg
ANNE CAPEHART
I think that this is a matter of the nature of the song
and what you want to do with it. A linguistic accent is like a musical
style or tradition. Thus just as there is a recognizeable
bluegrass vocal and instrumnal style, or a distinguishable
jazz torch singer style, or a Black gospel style, every music tradition has
a range of acceptable stylistic and linguistic variations. Sometimes
a piece of music does not cross these boundaries well, while others
can be very good in more than one style.
Many Beatles tunes fall into this category. "I've Just Seen a Face" is a
wonderful blugrass tune as done by the Charles River Valley Boys.
"Eleanor Rigby" is an incredible anthem as done by Aretha Franklin.
Others need to stay generally in the stylistic mold of their origin.
Examples are the myriad failures of even the best compsers such as
Aaron Copeland to bring oldtime country fiddle from the Appalachians
into classical music with any degree of credibility.
Sometimes it is acceptable or even desirable to change and vary
the melody of a song. Other times this is a desecration and a sacrilege.
How do you know which is which?
How does any musician know the "right" way to perform a song. He
brings his experience, his taste, his judgement, his affection for
his audiences, and most of all his RESPECT for his sources and
his collaborators and his musical community. He uses these to the best
of his ability, and then he applies a sense of self criticism.
He asks himself "Does it work?" and if the answer is 'NO' then he
either works on it some more or he abandons the attempt.
There is a spiritual component to most traditional music. Does that
mystical aspect transcend the changes a particular singer makes to
the song? Would a "native" singer of the song be likely to feel that a "new"
version with a changed accent was a good idea?
Think about blues. Almost always, the lyrics are sung with a southern
accent or a black accent. NOT because it is an imitation, but because the
music and the melody and the tones you need to produce seem to require
that type of vocal production. The slides and stretches of the blues scales
NEED to have longer vowels and dont lend themselves to clear stops.
The voice is just another instrument. You play what is appropriat to
the musical context on that instument as on any other.
When I play and sing with black artists,
when I SPEAK I don't mimic their accent, although I have that
ability. But when I SING with them, I shape my words and my
treatment of the song to fit and blend with theirs.
Take opera:
Opera in english seems to use a very classical
almost british accent, no matter what the subject, while italian opera
seem to be much more colloquial. Again it is a matter of what the
music requires.
Now to your question as to scottish ballads. I personally think that
those tend to sound very good in scottish or irish accents, and they
translate well into "Mountain" versions. I (personally) think that
they sound execrable when done in middle american. I think that the accent
IS as you suggest, an important part of the songs, particularly since many
ballads were orignally sung unaccompanied, so that the accent was
that much more a prominant part of the presentation.
However, a caveat: IF you elect to do a song in accent or dialect, then you
have to treat that accent or dialect just as you would an entire
style of music. Ideally you will work at it until a "native" singer
would not consider you to be a "non-native" by hearing you. YOU dont
just "mimic" the accent of a single song. You learn the dialect at leat
well enough that you can credibly to several songs, ideally take
a song that was NOT done with that accent or style and apply that style
to it. Think of a style or accent as being on the same scale as an instrument,
in terms of what you have to do to master it.
Often a style and an accent are wedded together: it may be better to
completely change style AND accent thenm to retain one without the other.
That is to say a completely new context and treatment of a song might be
preferable to a half assed or unskilled attempt to mimic the source.
It is NEVER a good idea to do an exact imitation. You will never do as good
a job of being Ewan McColl as he does. If the song does not move you enough
to motivate you to bring something of yourself to it, then that
is a pretty good sign that you should leave it alone.
I suggest that you consider learning ONE tradition or style SO
well that the accent will be a natural part of it, and the question will
take care of itself.
A final comment on accents in general:
When you visit a foreign country do you speak the local language or
do you speak english? How good does your accent have to be before
you speak the local language? In France people seem to prefer that
either you speak French well, with a good accent, or not at all.
A poor accent, to them, is insulting. In Italy, in contrast, any
attempt to speak Italian, no matter how badly, is appreciated. The
Italians are generally complemented that you made the attempt.
Musical traditions and styles vary in the same way.
Vic
=========================================================
Victor Lukas Bitnet: LUKA...@Dukemc.bitnet
Duke University, Internet: LUKA...@Dukemc.bitnet
Durham, NC Compuserve: 73077,3061
Education is a journey, not a destination.
=========================================================
--
Anne Racel Internet: cape...@nevada.edu
University of Nevada, Compuserve: 72105,1105
Las Vegas Bitnet: cape...@unsvax.bitnet
"Yes, it works well in practice, but will it work in theory?" Anon.
ANNE CAPEHART
I'm posting this for a friend, so please reply to the address below.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I think that this is a matter of the nature of the song
Jeff Winslow
>Examples are the myriad failures of even the best compsers such as
>Aaron Copeland to bring oldtime country fiddle from the Appalachians
>into classical music with any degree of credibility.
I don't think Copeland was writing for an audience of country fiddlers,
so I doubt if he cared a bit whether he retained any of this "credibility".
He was a composer; composers care a lot more about the authenticity of
their own sound than the authenticity of some little bit of it to its
origin. And so they should. Complaining about a lack of credibility in
Appalachian Spring, especially in the exquisite 13 instrument version,
because the fiddle music doesn't sound like the real thing, is like
complaining about a Bible reading because it's not in the original
Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic. That isn't the point of it.
>Take opera:
>Opera in english seems to use a very classical
>almost british accent, no matter what the subject, while italian opera
>seem to be much more colloquial. Again it is a matter of what the
>music requires.
No, it is a matter of opera people having peculiar attitudes about sung
English, and also a matter of many opera singers having learned English
as a second language somewhere in Europe. The music does not, repeat
does NOT require any such nonsense. *Especially* not American operas.
Why would an American composer, as common practice, write for any language
other than the one that he knows? Nor can I think of any good musical
or dramatic reason why translated Wagner, for example, should avoid
an American sound. Except maybe to keep people from hearing how bad
the translation is. :-)
I don't have any argument with your posting in general, in fact I think
you make a lot of good points, but I couldn't let these two go by
uncontested.
Jeff Winslow
James Moore
>I'd rather hear honest material done in the style
>native to the performer, by an understanding performer, than fake accents
>that sound like the "original" but carry little of the meaning or significance
>from that song's "folks". If this means that not just anyone can do any
>type of material, even if the technical skills are there, well, that's the
>price we pay for honesty.
)I don't agree with what Jim has to say, but it puts me in mind of a
great song that I don't remember, which tells the story of a singer
who takes almost precisely Jim's point of view (with perhaps just a
tad more humour :-]):
Chorus:
But what do you do if you're young and white and Jewish
[And goes on to lament that the singer has never worked with his
hands, never been hungry, and so forth]
Does this sound familiar to anyone? I heard it on the radio, once,
and have absolutely no more information about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Moore | Wind River Systems
ja...@wrs.com | Alameda, California
| 1-800-USA-4WRS / Fax 415-814-2010
Al Stavely
In article <12...@wrs.wrs.com> ja...@roover.wrs.com (James Moore) writes:
>
>But what do you do if you're young and white and Jewish
>[And goes on to lament that the singer has never worked with his
>hands, never been hungry, and so forth]
>
>Does this sound familiar to anyone? I heard it on the radio, once,
>and have absolutely no more information about it.
>
Written and sung by Grit Laskin of Toronto. He was mentioned a few times
in this newsgroup recently. I heard him do it in Ann Arbor in the 70's.
- Allan Stavely, New Mexico Tech, USA
ANNE CAPEHART
Again, please reply to Vic's address, not mine. :-)
In article <33...@wrgate.WR.TEK.COM> je...@midas.WR.TEK.COM (Jeff Winslow) writes:
>
>I don't think Copeland was writing for an audience of country fiddlers,
>so I doubt if he cared a bit whether he retained any of this "credibility".
>
>>Take opera:
>>Opera in english seems to use a very classical
>>almost british accent, no matter what the subject, while italian opera
>>seem to be much more colloquial. Again it is a matter of what the
>>music requires.
>
>No, it is a matter of opera people having peculiar attitudes about sung
>English, and also a matter of many opera singers having learned English
I am inclined to agree with you about the opera, and in fact my
favorite english language opera is Porgy and Bess, which is
a counter example to my assertion about British English.
In particular I like "There's a Boat That's Leaving..." as sung
by Avon Long that is INDEED very colloquial.
The Copeland example however I will stand behind, although we might
have some fruitful discussion of what we each mean by "credible"
in this context.
Cheers.
Vic Lukas luka...@dukemc.bitnet or luka...@dukemc.mc.duke.edu
Jeff Winslow
>I am inclined to agree with you about the opera, and in fact my
>favorite english language opera is Porgy and Bess, which is
>a counter example to my assertion about British English.
Yes - that's a good example! I wish there were more performances,
of other operas, like that.
>The Copeland example however I will stand behind, although we might
>have some fruitful discussion of what we each mean by "credible"
>in this context.
Well, I'm not sure how fruitful it would be. Unless I'm badly
misinterpreting you, it's just a matter of two different cultures.
The fiddler is going to listen and say, "Huh?", and the normal
concertgoer is either going to say "gosh that sounds like
old-time fiddle music" or "gosh that's a beautiful piece" or
"gosh I hope I turned my lights off" or "Zzzzz", depending on
all sorts of things.
Once again, although this is the wrong group for it, I would recommend
a hearing of the original 13-instrument version of Appalachian Spring.
I heard it performed live a few years ago, and although I'm not
necessarily a big Copeland fan, nor a fan of the orchestral version,
I loved it.
Jeff Winslow
Greg Bullough
>favorite english language opera is Porgy and Bess, which is
>a counter example to my assertion about British English.
>In particular I like "There's a Boat That's Leaving..." as sung
>by Avon Long that is INDEED very colloquial.
that the singers of "Porgy and Bess" don't speak the same dialect/accent
of English in which they sing the opera?
Seems to me that the most important thing is that you sing the song in
a manner that's believeable *to you*. The rest will sort of work itself
out.
Greg
Al Stavely
In article <1990Aug28.1...@nmt.edu> I wrote:
>
>In article <12...@wrs.wrs.com> ja...@roover.wrs.com (James Moore) writes:
>>
>>But what do you do if you're young and white and Jewish
>
>Written and sung by Grit Laskin of Toronto. He was mentioned a few times
>in this newsgroup recently. I heard him do it in Ann Arbor in the 70's.
>
ze...@cs.cs.cs.sfu.ca corrects me:
Just possibly Laskin Wrote it. I don't have my copy of
Silverstein's book to check. Almost certainly SS wrote it
and GL gives proper credit if he sings it on the radio.
You can't "take the subway everywhere you go" in Toronto
as much as New York; SS is Jewish, GL may be; the content
of the song is more consistent with SS than GL in my
opinion. What the hell, they're both my heros./Zeke Hoskin
Zeke is probably right. I seem to remember Laskin talking as if he
wrote it himself, and I don't remember him crediting Shel Silverstein,
but it's been a long time... Anyhow, I think it fits Laskin too --
it's exactly his style of humor -- and yes, I'm sure Laskin is Jewish.
- Al Stavely, New Mexico Tech, USA
Jon Berger
>
>>I'd rather hear honest material done in the style
>>native to the performer, by an understanding performer, than fake accents
>>that sound like the "original" but carry little of the meaning or significance
>>from that song's "folks". If this means that not just anyone can do any
>>type of material, even if the technical skills are there, well, that's the
>>price we pay for honesty.
>
>)I don't agree with what Jim has to say, but it puts me in mind of a
>great song that I don't remember, which tells the story of a singer
>who takes almost precisely Jim's point of view (with perhaps just a
>tad more humour :-]):
>
>Chorus:
>
>But what do you do if you're young and white and Jewish
>[And goes on to lament that the singer has never worked with his
>hands, never been hungry, and so forth]
>
>Does this sound familiar to anyone? I heard it on the radio, once,
>and have absolutely no more information about it.
I never heard the song you refer to, but it reminds of an old Brian
Handelsman cartoon, depicting a group of obviously affluent, upper-class
well-dressed white couples sitting in a lavishly appointed living room.
One of them is plaing a guitar, and they're happily singing:
Dey took John Henry to de grabeyard
And dey buried him in de sand
And ebry locomotive dat comes along
Says "Dere lies a steel-dribin' man"
Or something like that. It was in the New Yorker a long time ago. It may
have warped me at an early age or something, but I always think of that
cartoon when I find myself slipping into colorful ethnic dialect.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Berger jo...@ingres.com {mtxinu,sun,amdahl,pyramid}!ingres!jonb
"Gentlemen, I regret to inform you that we're all drawings." -- B. Kliban
Zeke Hoskin
What do you do when you're young and white and Jewish
And you've never swung a hammer 'gainst a spike
And you've...one of the nicer songs about folk singing, along
with Tom Lehrer's Folk Song Army (Ready! Aim! Sing!). Young
and White And Jewish is by Shel Silverstein, and can be found
in his really wonderful songbook _Dirty Feet_. Silverstein is
also well known for a series of wry cartoons that Playboy ran
fifteen years or so back, and wrote such children's gems as
_I'm Being Eaten by a Boa Constrictor_ and _You're Always Welcome
In Our House_. If anyone knows where to get a copy of the book,
tell me: mine got borrowed from the person who borrowed it and
that's the last I've heard of it.
Peter S. Shenkin
>Just to further muddy the waters (*ahem*), we all realize, don't we,
>that the singers of "Porgy and Bess" don't speak the same dialect/accent
>of English in which they sing the opera?
Well, last year at the Metropolitan Opera, the all-Black cast sho' did....
-P.
************************f*u*cn*rd*ths*u*cn*gt*a*gd*jb**************************
Peter S. Shenkin, Department of Chemistry, Barnard College, New York, NY 10027
(212)854-1418 she...@cunixc.cc.columbia.edu(Internet) shenkin@cunixc(Bitnet)
***"In scenic New York... where the third world is only a subway ride away."***
Peter S. Shenkin
>What do you do when you're young and white and Jewish
>And you've never swung a hammer 'gainst a spike
>...Young and White And Jewish is by Shel Silverstein, and can be found
>in his really wonderful songbook _Dirty Feet_. Silverstein is
>also well known for a series of wry cartoons that Playboy ran
>fifteen years or so back, and wrote such children's gems as
>_I'm Being Eaten by a Boa Constrictor_ and _You're Always Welcome
...and also a string of wry country hits, such as "Boy Named Sue", done by
Johnny Cash, "Here in Topeka," also known as "One's On the Way" (Loretta
Lynn), "One Piece at a Time" (Cash), and "Numbers" (Bobby Bare). (I'm
less certain about the last two, but I think they're Shel's; can anyone
confirm?)
[[ Cross-posting to rec.music.country added for this thread only. ]]
David M Tate
>In <1990Aug19.2...@nmt.edu> dbr...@nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>>What do you people do about accents when singing an ethnic ballad?
>
>unsatisfactory answer is that you have no business singing that material!
I have a real problem with this response. This is *folk* music, dammit, and
I'm folk too. If you don't want to listen to my fake Scots accent, you can
leave, but "For A' That" or "Rogues in a Nation" or (even more so) something
like "Cam Ye Oer Frae France" is just as powerful to a Yank like me as it is
to a native speaker, but really can't be done in American English...
--
David M. Tate | "When pungency, not blandness, is called for
dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu | our tone is sometimes frankly tendentious."
"A Man for all Seasonings" | --Bratley et al., "A Guide to Simulation"
David M Tate
>
>The only time non-English-speakers singing in English sound awkward to me
>is when they don't seem to know what the words mean.
It's not just non-English-speakers. I have this problem on an album of mine
with Louis Armstrong singing Cole Porter :-)...
David M Tate
>
>and White And Jewish is by Shel Silverstein, and can be found
>in his really wonderful songbook _Dirty Feet_. Silverstein is
>also well known for a series of wry cartoons that Playboy ran
>fifteen years or so back, and wrote such children's gems as
>_I'm Being Eaten by a Boa Constrictor_ and _You're Always Welcome
>In Our House_.
Not to mention the wonderful _Where the Sidewalk Ends_ and _The Giving Tree_,
and the debilitatingly funny "Uncle Shelby's ABZ Book", which should ON NO
ACCOUNT be shown to any child under the age of ten years, for fear of causing
permanent psychological damage.
David M Tate
>In article <12...@netcom.UUCP> gr...@netcom.UUCP (Greg Bullough) writes:
> >Just to further muddy the waters (*ahem*), we all realize, don't we,
> >that the singers of "Porgy and Bess" don't speak the same dialect/accent
> >of English in which they sing the opera?
>
>Well, last year at the Metropolitan Opera, the all-Black cast sho' did....
You don't *really* believe that black opera singers with the Met ordinarily
speak in 1920's South Atlantic Poor Black English, do you? This was just a
bad joke, right?
John Eaton
< But what do you do if you're young and white and Jewish
< [And goes on to lament that the singer has never worked with his
< hands, never been hungry, and so forth]
Stan Rogers did an updated working mans chant that was based not
on railroads or ships but rather on modern office work.
Comedian Alan Arkin who fits at least two or three of those quals
wrote "Bananna Boat Song" for Harry Belefonte.
John Eaton
!hpvcfs1!johne
Greg Bullough
>
>Not to mention the wonderful _Where the Sidewalk Ends_ and _The Giving Tree_,
>and the debilitatingly funny "Uncle Shelby's ABZ Book", which should ON NO
>ACCOUNT be shown to any child under the age of ten years, for fear of causing
>permanent psychological damage.
personal-growth/affective education with kids. This seemed great, and
all that, until one day I read it again.
In the book, the tree gives and gives, until it has no more to give and
has lost its essential self. The boy takes and takes, and never really
gives anything much back to the tree, except the satisfaction of having
given.
Now, usually the book is presented as "oh gee, isn't it wonderful how
generous and virtuous the tree is, shouldn't we all be like it?" Which
for living, is a load of crap.
I'm afraid that, as a didactic fairy story, "The Giving Tree" has lots
of pitfalls.
Somehow I get the feeling that Shel knew that.
Greg
Jim Muller
>In <40...@alliant.Alliant.COM> mul...@alliant.Alliant.COM (Jim Muller) writes:
>>In <1990Aug19.2...@nmt.edu> dbr...@nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
>>>What do you people do about accents when singing an ethnic ballad?
>>Good question, and I don't know the "best" anwser. The "proper" but maybe
>>unsatisfactory answer is that you have no business singing that material!
>I have a real problem with this response.
Like I said, that answer may be unsatisfactory. Well, I did go to qualify
and expound on that statement.
>This is *folk* music, dammit, and I'm folk too.
This is a good example of different answers applying when you come from
different starting points, so lets's develop this a bit. Of *course*
you are a folk. But dadgummit, "Rogues in a Nation" is not a folk song
for you in the sense that your "folks" sang it when they were young, or
you learned it through the mystical/mythical folk process as a child from
other children or your extended family, and you know what the betrayal was
all about that lead to English domination of Scotland, etc. It's just a
nice-sounding song that you learned from a *recording* by Steel-Eye Span
(and maybe others). There *are* songs that qualify for you, but that isn't
one of them. That process by which you learned it, and by which it carries
meaning for you, applies just as well to music by Elvis Presley or New Kids
On the Block. For a song to be a Folk Song to you, it must mean something
to you, be it a light-hearted ditty from you childhood or a memorable story
of Paul Revere warning of the British invasion or the great Chicago Fire.
When you sing it as someone else's Folk Song, it is a "folk song" to you.
Now, when you sing it, there are several ways you might do so. You could
just sing it and enjoy it. This is what you are describing as your right.
Fine and dandy, and it's a good song for that. But that carries no label
of "folk". You could just as easily sing Hopalong Cassidy's songs or Cole
Porter's or Elvis's. You are a folk, and you are just singing. Period. In
this case, the simple sound is the important thing, mostly, though you might
like the lyrics too. And the sound requirement usually includes the accent.
Now suppose you perform it as a "folk song", and you describe it as such.
This could take two forms: Either you are demonstrating part of your own
heritage and culture or you are recreating someone else's. After all, the
value of "folk songs" over simple commercial stuff is that they carry this
cultural baggage. This is why they are more "real", why the entertain us
in their special way. They certainly don't come with commercial production
values or execution, in many cases anyway. So for it to be a significant
"folk song" performance, it really should carry some of that cultural stuff.
(We are talking about performances. If you just mean singing for your own
enjoyment or your friends entertainment, then you are still in the previous
paragraph.) If you can handle the cultural stuff that comes with the song,
then fine, do it! But that involves a *lot* more than just the accent. If
you know what it means to be a Scot or Irishman dominated by the English,
then great! (I certainly don't, not really.) If you can handle it, then
the accent is *not* the key ingredient! The accent is quite secondary to
making the song carry to the audience the full meaning that it has to it
originators. You are taking someone else's Folk Song and making it a "folk
song". Now, you could of course be singing your own Folk Song rather than
someone else's. At least with your own, you *know* what the song is about.
You know what "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" is about, I would expect,
since many of use are no more than two generations away from having some
relative who fought in the War Between the States. You know, or can at
least understand, what the issues were in the Oklahoma Dust Bowl, or any
big earthquake or flood, or even "Rock-a-bye Baby". Maybe it isn't firsthand
knowledge, but it is far more real than trying to sound Irish! At least the
song you perform as a "folk song" is also a Folk Song to you. The accent
will be natural for your own Folk Songs, though that isn't the significant
feature any more than the Scottish accent is in "Rogues in a Nation".
Am I just being dogmatic with all this drivel? Not really. The issue is
one of semantics, partly, since that is why we disagreed. You can sing
anything you damned well please, and call it whatever you want, too. But
if you are going to *call* it "folk" (and semantics is the business of what
we call things), then we need to speak the same language, decide what we
mean by folk. Is it Folk or "folk" or neither? Is this a performance?
This whole thing brings up another issue, just what *is* Folk music in this
day of recorded music and a commercial music industry? When was the last
time you heard "Rock-a-bye Baby" sung in a serious performance, with the
introduction of "Here's a pretty song that mothers used to sing to their
infants in North America during the first half of the 20th century"? Would
anyone even care?? So where exactly did "Rogues in a Nation" come from?
I dunno, maybe they wrote it, maybe it really is a Folk Song from Scotland.
What about all the songs written by Tom Paxton or Woody Guthrie? When did
they become Folk Songs instead of a new song written by someone then recorded?
Many of Tom Paxton's songs would be considered Folk now, if only because so
many people have heard them and know them (though they do little for me).
Most of his are recognized as his because he is a well-know author. But it
is funny how easy it is for other non-Folk songs to slide into Folkdom by
the simple expedient of the author being less memorable. Do you know that
Fiddlin' Arthur Smith wrote "Dueling Banjos"? It amuses me to read here
of someone wanting to know about some great "traditional" folk song that I
remember came out by some group like the Chad Mitchell Trio in, oh, maybe
1964, as a brand new song, written by someone (I neither remembered nor
cared) and released by RCA or Columbia or A&M or some other major label in
an attempt to sell more records! This is not to say that newly-written songs
by the great contemporary singer-songwriters are no good, in fact, they are
wonderful as contemporary (and acoustic) music, but it isn't folk by any
definiton, Folk or "folk". It suggests that "folk" as a genre is not so
special, and is certainly mis-named. Actually, what it really says is that
the value of "folk" music is its ability to carry the meaning of Folk (all
as defined above), rather than just to sound good. To my judgement, that
makes what I said above all the more significant. If you perform a song and
*call* it a "folk song", then your primary emphasis should be to carry to
the audience the true meaning and vitality that it had to those who sang it
as a Folk Song. The accent is not the key thing. The world is just *full*
of music that sounds good but is empty. If you can express the life and the
meaning and get it sound good too, then great!! But if you can't get the
meaning, then forget, it, accent or not.
--
- Jim Muller
Jim Muller
(Bob Davis) writes:
> Silverstein also wrote "The Unicorn", a popular song recorded
>quite a number of years back by The Irish Rovers:
Really??? Good grief! There a lot of guys in the Irish pubs down in
Southie and Alston who are gonna' be disappointed. That paragon of
commercial success has become a "traditional" folk song to a lot of
people. Geez, I wonder if The Irish Rovers were really Irish...
--
- Jim Muller
Bill Vermillion
>In article <11...@fornax.UUCP> ze...@fornax.UUCP (Zeke Hoskin) writes:
> >What do you do when you're young and white and Jewish
> >And you've never swung a hammer 'gainst a spike
> ...
> >...Young and White And Jewish is by Shel Silverstein, and can be found
> >in his really wonderful songbook _Dirty Feet_. Silverstein is
> >also well known for a series of wry cartoons that Playboy ran
> >fifteen years or so back, and wrote such children's gems as
> >_I'm Being Eaten by a Boa Constrictor_ and _You're Always Welcome
> >In Our House_...
>
>...and also a string of wry country hits, such as "Boy Named Sue", done by
>Johnny Cash, "Here in Topeka," also known as "One's On the Way" (Loretta
>Lynn), "One Piece at a Time" (Cash), and "Numbers" (Bobby Bare). (I'm
>less certain about the last two, but I think they're Shel's; can anyone
>confirm?)
Don't know about that particular one but Shel's songs appear on a couple of
Bobby Bare albums, and most of the songs on Bares "Baroom (backroom)
Ballads" double disk set. "Rosalie's Good-Eats Cafe" is a classic.
One of my favorite's of Shel's is "The Great Conch Train Robbery" - all
about the daring plot to hold up the Conch Train, the planning, and the
eventual robbery, only to be foiled an shot by a vacation sherrif from
Kansas. The "Conch Train" is a tourist train ride through the city of Key
West. I have about 4 or 5 of Silversteins albums I gathered over the last
many many years.
He's a treasure that far too few have had the pleasure to experience.
>[[ Cross-posting to rec.music.country added for this thread only. ]]
>
> -P.
Well it needs to be rec.music.country.western if you REALLY want to post it
there.
bill
--
Bill Vermillion - UUCP: uunet!tarpit!bilver!bill
: bi...@bilver.UUCP
Bob Davis
>In article <1990Aug29.1...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> she...@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Peter S. Shenkin) writes:
>>In article <11...@fornax.UUCP> ze...@fornax.UUCP (Zeke Hoskin) writes:
>> >in his really wonderful songbook _Dirty Feet_. Silverstein is
>> >also well known for a series of wry cartoons that Playboy ran
>> >fifteen years or so back, and wrote such children's gems as
>> >_I'm Being Eaten by a Boa Constrictor_ and _You're Always Welcome
>> >In Our House_...
>>
>>...and also a string of wry country hits, such as "Boy Named Sue", done by
>>Johnny Cash, "Here in Topeka," also known as "One's On the Way" (Loretta
>He's a treasure that far too few have had the pleasure to experience.
Silverstein also wrote "The Unicorn", a popular song recorded
quite a number of years back by The Irish Rovers:
".....and that's why you've never seen a unicorn
to this *very* day!
Oh, you'll see green alligators
and long-necked geese..."
Silverstein more-recently authored the best selling book,
_A Light in the Attic_.
Quite prolific, that Shel Silverstein.
______________________________________________________________________________
Bob Davis \\ INTERNET : so...@trantor.harris-atd.com | _ _ |
Harris Corporation, ESS \\ UUCP : ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!sonny |_| |_| | |
Advanced Technology Dept.\\ AETHER : K4VNO |==============|_/\/\/\|_|
PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 \\ VOICE : (407) 727-5886 | I SPEAK ONLY | |_| |_| |
Melbourne, FL 32902 \\ FAX : (407) 729-2537 | FOR MYSELF. |_________|
Mike Godfrey
> Geez, I wonder if The Irish Rovers were really Irish...
The Irish Rovers are all originally from Northern Ireland, but the group
re-settled in Canada many years ago. They've had a couple of TV series
on Canadian television, and used to pop up from time to time on other
shows such as CBC's "The Beachcombers".
Even if they aren't the world's best band, I'll always have a soft spot in
my heart for them as they introduced me to Irish music.
--
Mike Godfrey WANTED: Canadian seeks quiet holiday spot.
Dept of Comp Sci, UofT No lakes or golf courses.
mi...@csri.toronto.edu
Morna J. Findlay
>So where exactly did "Rogues in a Nation" come from?
>I dunno, maybe they wrote it, maybe it really is a Folk Song from Scotland.
>What about all the songs written by Tom Paxton or Woody Guthrie? When did
>they become Folk Songs instead of a new song written by someone then recorded?
I often get annoyed when people don't acknowledge authors of
songs, even when they must know *perfectly well* who wrote them.
"Parcel o' Rogues", as anyone who thought about it could guess,
was written by Robert Burns. To ignore the author in this case is
I feel to deny the HUGE debt owed by Scotland to Burns, who not
only wrote dozens of our most beloved and famous songs, but
systematically and deliberately saved 100s of tunes and songs
from oblivion.
Abandoning his career as a poet for the last years of his life,
he used his fame to get over 300 songs he had collected
published. Sometimes modifying them, sometimes almost rewriting
them, sometimes setting several sets of words to one tune.
Theres' no doubt but that we'd have lost many, many of these
songs and tunes if it hadn't been for him.
He was an excellsnt fiddler, and picked up these tunes from his
many nights in the pub - just as you or I might, exept that he
did this 200 years ago, and so has saved so much for us that we
would have lost. He tried to write a tune of his own once, but
it was so bad he through it away. A good anthology of his work,
will allways quote the name of the tune to which he has set his
own words.
E.G "Scots Wha Hae" is set to the tune "Hey Tuttie Tattie"
"Gloomy December" to "Through the Lang Moor" etc..
His enthususiasm and skill revived the pride in Scots song and
music that was in danger of dying due to the (then) recent
domination of culture and government by England.
The same thing seems to be happening with more recent authors
like Hamish Henderson, for example. I've seen his "51st Higland
Divisions Farewell to Sicily" described as "traditional".
Why is this? Don't Folk musiciand *want* to acknowledge authors??
M
--
Morna Findlay JANET: mo...@uk.ac.ed.lfcs
LFCS, Dept. of Computer Science UUCP: ..!mcsun!ukc!lfcs!morna
University of Edinburgh ARPA: morna%lfcs.e...@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Edinburgh EH9 3JZ, UK. Tel: 031-667-1081 Ext 2807
ac...@cleveland.freenet.edu
When I was a country music DJ on WGNU in St. Louis back in the early 70's,
we played a Shel Silverstein tune called "A Front Row Seat To Hear Old
Johnny Sing", which was very funny. And sometimes, if I needed to fill half
a minute to time up to the hourly news, I would flip it over and play "The
26-second Song".
The complete lyrics to that are as follows:
"All the DJ's keep complaining
The tunes run much too long
So I went out and wrote myself
a 26-second song."
(Would you believe there is a shorter record than that? Kenny Price sang one
called "The Shortest Song In the World", and its running time is only 18
seconds. I don't recall who wrote it. The entire lyric is this: "This is the
shortest song in the world.")
--
NEIL PARKS
Domain routing:
ac...@cleveland.freenet.edu
Bang routing:
uunet!ncoast!skybridge!cleveland.freenet.edu!ac119
Fidonet: 157/511 (Appleholics)
GT: 27/0 (Tardis)
"Competition is the backbone of the American free enterprise system."
David M Tate
>In <33...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>
>>I have a real problem with this response.
>
>then fine, do it! But that involves a *lot* more than just the accent. If
>you know what it means to be a Scot or Irishman dominated by the English,
>then great! (I certainly don't, not really.) If you can handle it, then
>the accent is *not* the key ingredient! The accent is quite secondary to
>making the song carry to the audience the full meaning that it has to it
>originators.
This, and the deleted paragraphs ahead of it, make good sense.
> At least with your own, you *know* what the song is about.
>You know what "When Johnny Comes Marching Home" is about, I would expect,
>since many of use are no more than two generations away from having some
>relative who fought in the War Between the States. You know, or can at
>least understand, what the issues were in the Oklahoma Dust Bowl, or any
>big earthquake or flood, or even "Rock-a-bye Baby". Maybe it isn't firsthand
>knowledge, but it is far more real than trying to sound Irish! At least the
>song you perform as a "folk song" is also a Folk Song to you. The accent
>will be natural for your own Folk Songs, though that isn't the significant
>feature any more than the Scottish accent is in "Rogues in a Nation".
Here's where it gets a little fuzzy. How is the American Civil War more real
to me than the Glorious Revolution, or being a being a railroad laborer more
immediate than being a chimney sweep. As I child, I was equally ignorant of
all of these things, and as an adult I know comparable amounts about them all.
My father sang "John Henry" and "Casey Jones" to me, but that doesn't mean
that I have any more cultural affinity for railroad labor than I do for sushi
chefs. We sang wassailing carols, too. In Illinois.
The plain fact is, there was nothing in my early life, or in my parents' lives,
that qualifies as cultural context for many of the folk-songs I learned as a
child. Now, I am being told that this disqualifies me from ever being able
to appreciate these songs, or any others, and that I should avoid sharing them
with others because my feelings about the things they describe are somehow
inferior, less genuine, than the feelings of people who grew up elsewhere.
I begin to see why Steeleye Span made it their explicit goal to undo the work
of the British Folk-Song Society.
I thought the whole point of the song was to preserve the memory and spread
the word. If only people from the cultural context of the song are qualified
to do this, then pretty quickly you're going to run out of eligible singers.
Will songs about coal miners become taboo when coal mining stops? Are songs
that talk about swords and shields off-limits now?
I know you weren't trying to insult me, but I can't avoid interpreting your
comments as "You couldn't possibly have enough empathy to make your feelings
about the subject of the song worth sharing", which hurts. It's a lot like
being told I shouldn't perform jazz because I'm not black. I'm sure Stan
Getz would be amused by that one.
Thomas Leathrum
I have been following the thread on accents with some interest, but when
it took this turn I must admit I was a bit surprised. We're now trying
to define folk music again. I just want to slip in my two cents' worth
before the thread dies (when people realize the whole project is silly).
It seems to me that there are two extremes of views in defining folk
music. The first, and the one that started this discussion (with the
quote: "This is *folk* music, dammit, and I'm folk too"), is probably
best expressed in the quote (I've heard it attributed to Woody Guthry,
Leadbelly, and a couple of others): "I ain't never heard no horse
sing." The other is probably best expressed by a quip someone I heard
running a folk songs workshop was going to put on a rubber stamp:
"Certified Authentic Folk Song -- Author Unknown".
Whenever this discussion happens, The Folk Process has to be mentioned
somewhere, usually with due reverence. I have only been going to folk
festivals actively for less than a year now, but already I feel like a
part of that process. Let me give you one example. I went to a little
one-day micro-festival at a lakeside recreation area just north of here
a couple of months ago, and at about 2pm it started raining. This
wasn't a "cover up the equipment and try again in half an hour" rain --
within half an hour the field was flooded. They moved some of the
concerts indoors to a little inn about five miles away. But before this
happened, there was a group of people standing under a tent to avoid the
rain, and one of the performers was there. She suggested we sing. So
we did. Before long, we started making up a song. I don't remember
whose idea it was, but she started writing it down, and about ten people
were contributing. All I remember now is the first two lines: "We're
mighty, mighty glad you came/ Came in spite of the rain..." (a very
upbeat tune). The performer will probably wind up recording it and
claiming authorship (she has every right to), but this is, to me, a
certifiable folk song. Just Plain Folk made this song. Us.
One person on this thread said: "After all, the value of "folk songs"
over simple commercial stuff is that they carry this cultural baggage."
I couldn't agree more, but I think there's a danger of overvaluing the
baggage. The song I talked about above will change, grow, different
people will sing it different ways, and all that is OK because they are
just putting their own baggage on the song. A good folk song stands up
to that, at least for a while. After that, it becomes a Traditional folk song.
So I guess I sit somewhere in the middle of these extremes: I don't
mind artists claiming authorship of a folk song, as long as they don't
mind other people singing it once in a while; if, in the process, the
song changes, so much the better.
So here's the way I look at this accents business: I will try to sing
the song because I like its message, and I think I can feel and express
something "right" about it; if it's in an accent, I may try to copy that
accent, especially if I think it will make it sound "more right", or
just plain better; if I can't get the accent, damned if that's going to
stop me from singing. I like the song, and isn't that, after all, the
whole point?
Regards,
Tom Leathrum
mo...@dartmouth.edu
Tony Newell
I always liked "Sara Silvia Sinthia Stout...who would not take the
garbage out."
--
Tony Newell "...it's just a fact of life no one
(408) 435-3633 (Voice) cares to mention, she wasn't good
(408) 435-5300 (Fax) but she had good intentions!"
..ctnews!copilot!tony --Lyle Lovett--
Dale R. Shaver
>
>When I was a country music DJ on WGNU in St. Louis back in the early 70's,
>we played a Shel Silverstein tune called "A Front Row Seat To Hear Old
>Johnny Sing", which was very funny. And sometimes, if I needed to fill half
>a minute to time up to the hourly news, I would flip it over and play "The
>26-second Song".
>
>The complete lyrics to that are as follows:
>
>"All the DJ's keep complaining
>The tunes run much too long
>So I went out and wrote myself
>a 26-second song."
>
>(Would you believe there is a shorter record than that? Kenny Price sang one
>called "The Shortest Song In the World", and its running time is only 18
>seconds. I don't recall who wrote it. The entire lyric is this: "This is the
>shortest song in the world.")
Oh, but there's a shorter one still. Unfortunately, not by
a country singer. It goes:
"This song... is pretty damn short!"
and lasts a good 5 seconds.
--
Dale Shaver, Unify Technical Support Phone: (916) 922-1177, x 733
d...@unify.UUCP Fax: (916) 920-5306
{{ucdavis,csun,lll-crg}!csusac,pyramid,sequent}!unify!dxs
"Please continue the petty bickering; I find it quite intriguing"
BOWDEN DON H
>>(Would you believe there is a shorter record than that? Kenny Price sang one
>>called "The Shortest Song In the World", and its running time is only 18
>>seconds. I don't recall who wrote it. The entire lyric is this: "This is the
>>shortest song in the world.")
>
>Oh, but there's a shorter one still. Unfortunately, not by
>a country singer. It goes:
>
> "This song... is pretty damn short!"
>
>and lasts a good 5 seconds.
There's a shorter one *still*: On a circa 1969 album by the Fugs ("it crawled
into my hand, honest") there's a tune by Tuli Kupferberg entitled, "Tuli,
Visited by the Ghost of Plontinus" that runs three seconds. The lyrics:
"I'm just in this for the sex, myself."
El Reylo
"Free Enterprise--the Backbone of the American Competitive System."
at...@acad2.anc.ak.edu at...@alaska.Bitnet
Daniel Briggs
writes:
>I begin to see why Steeleye Span made it their explicit goal to undo the work
>of the British Folk-Song Society.
Now I'm curious. Could you expand on this? Where was this stated? Did they
say that on an album jacket somewhere, or in an interview?
--
This is a shared guest account, please send replies to
dbr...@nrao.edu (Internet)
Dan Briggs / NRAO / P.O. Box O / Socorro, NM / 87801 (U.S. Snail)
ac...@cleveland.freenet.edu
> El Reylo
>
>"Free Enterprise--the Backbone of the American Competitive System."
>
>at...@acad2.anc.ak.edu at...@alaska.Bitnet
>
If you are going to plagiarize my signature, at least get it right. I said,
David M Tate
>In article <34...@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate)
>writes:
>>I begin to see why Steeleye Span made it their explicit goal to undo the work
>>of the British Folk-Song Society.
>
>Now I'm curious. Could you expand on this? Where was this stated? Did they
>say that on an album jacket somewhere, or in an interview?
OK.
As I recall, this was stated somewhere on the jacket or liner notes of their
first (only?) live album, "Live at Last".
I can't recall the details, but I think the point was that the current (that
is, 1969) practice of 'collecting' folk songs seemed more aimed at putting
those songs in museums instead of in people's throats, and Span wanted to see
if they couldn't bring some of those 'exhibits' back to the people. IMHO,
they succeeded beyond their wildest possible dreams. My mother the English
teacher used to play their arrangements of "Thomas Rymer" and "The Wife of
Usher's Well" to her 9th-grade classes. The kids got a lot more out of that
than they did *reading* "Barbara Allen" and "Lord Randall", or even listening
to more 'traditional' renderings of them...
I could be wrong about the source on this; it could be the liner notes to
"Original Masters", which summarizes the group's history up through "Rocket
Cottage" or so...
--
David M. Tate | "Tightrope walkers are not concerned with
dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu | distance records."
"A Man for all Seasonings" | --Joe Haldeman, "Buying Time"
Greg Bullough
>
>
>The same thing seems to be happening with more recent authors
>like Hamish Henderson, for example. I've seen his "51st Higland
>Divisions Farewell to Sicily" described as "traditional".
>
>Why is this? Don't Folk musiciand *want* to acknowledge authors??
>
they honestly don't know where the song came from. That, and the fact that
many recording companies aren't very good at seeing that the author
information gets on the label of the record. So, if you get a song from
someone who doesn't know where it came from, or from a recording with
inadequate labeling, you may not know if it's traditional or not. Add to
that that many artists "adapted and arranged" and then copyrighted the
arrangements, and it gets even fuzzier.
Then, on top of all else, many writers (e.g. John Connolly, Andy M. Stewart,
Pete St. John, et. al.) manage to blend into established styles so effectively
that it's difficult to distinguish their "new traditional" pieces from
"traditional traditional."
Then again, someone playing the air to Hamish Henderson's song owes him
nothing. It's a traditional (possibly Scots-American) tune called "Farewell
to the Creeks."
Greg
Greg Bullough
>
>I always liked "Sara Silvia Sinthia Stout...who would not take the
>garbage out."
>
>
I heard it as a child on "Jim Copp Tales," a wonderful children's record.
Well worth looking for, in used record shops.
Greg
d...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
use to describe a particular type of music that happens to describe whatever
it is they're listening to. Thus, Michelle-Shocked was "folk" because she
seemed to present a standard folkie pose, woman singer, accoustic guitar,
"sensitive" lyrics, etc. Currently, she seems determined to defy all
pigeon-holers, having done a swing album. Similarly, k.d. lang was a c&w
singer because she sang sweet country songs, and coaxed Owen Bradley out of
retirement.
On the "traditional" side of folk music it's an even worse mess. Folklorists
and singers clash on matters of authenticity, appropriateness, etc. As
it has been pointed out, one of Steeleye Span's goals was to liberate
folk songs from being mere museum pieces, and they succeeded admirably, yet
it's questionable whether they really returned the songs to the oral tradition.
Ultimately, the folk-rock revolution hasless to do with the oral tradition
than it does with defining an entirely new musical genre that builds on
traditional forms, and recognizes the inherent tendency for performers
to interpret and change songs. Indeed, the folk-rock bands often
encourage some version of the "folk process" by quite consciously
changing lyrics, style, etc. This is nothing new in popular music, if
a song is strong enough, it can survive many interpretations and
styles, yet remain distinct. The Byrds didn't change a note of
Dylan's "Mr. Tambourine Man", but they added their own unmistakable
sound to it and created something entirely new in the process. If
the "folk process" has different manifestations, than the myriad of
influences which go into any song or performance of a song
are surely part of that process.
Indeed, musical styles, songs, lyrics, etc. are not static entities, they grow
organically. "Punk rock" did not just magically come into existance the moment
that Maclolm Mclaren ripped John Lydon's shirts, it evolved as
a reaction to the current popular scene. As a musical style, it was inspired
by American bands like The Ramones and The New York Dolls, who were
inspired by bands like The Stooges and the Thirteenth Floor Elevators,
all of whom were inspired by the excitement and energy of early rock and roll
and rockabilly, which was inspired by a fusion of R&B and Country
music, which had their antecedents in African music and Anglo-Celtic
balladry.
Even the utterly urban sounds of Rap have antecedents like these - the
tradition of "toasting", where performers tell stories in verse
sounds remarkably like rap music, and was quite clearly a bona fide
oral tradition.
This doesn't mean that a genuine oral tradition does not exist any more.
It certainly does. As a child, I sang "London Bridge is Falling
Down", without having the faintest idea what it was about, and in
retrospect, the business about walking through arched arms and
risking being "trapped" seems almost spooky tome now. But
I also sang "Jingle Bells Batman Smells", which is certainly no great
song, but I defy anyone to find on author (perhaps some folksinger
of 2193 AD will sing it and say "this is a song that little children
used to sing on busses, we don't know who this "Batman" is, but
modern scholars feel that it must be some long-forgotten pagan god" :-) )
Many kids have picked out the ghastly strains of "Heart and Soul"
on the piano, and yet, that was a published song. Why did THAT song
enter the strange "little kid oral tradition" and other songs
didn't? Who knows, but obviously, such traditions are quite alive and well,
even if the songs aren't always very good.
Which brings me to my final point, which is in regards to passing judgement
on songs in an oral tradition. I think that folklorists have
done a tremendous disservice by recording only versions of songs that
they liked. I've looked through many books by the likes of John Jacob
Niles and others and been quite irritated to read that a certain
"inferior" version of a song was recorded, but omitted. Who
ever told folklorists they could make these judgements? Fortunately,
modern folklorists treat their work as more descriptive than
prescriptive.
- Dan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Elvis was seated on the toilet, actually reading a religious book...when
suddenly a terrible pain gripped him by his stomach and seized his heart with a
strangler's grip. 'Oh no, dear dear God,' he thought. He couldn't move. He
couldn't get up. He had to get up. He must get up...That terrible pain, like
swords of fire, jabbing, slitting, cutting into his stomach, and especially his
liver - it was impossible to bear...Suddenly the thought flashed through him:
this must be like what Jesus suffered."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Eaton
< Quite prolific, that Shel Silverstein.
As long as we are compiling an anthology of songs we
must list The_Great_Smoke_Off which appeared in
Playboy and was recorded by SS. Most of its air time
has been on Dr. Demento.
In the Laid Back Calfornia Town Of Sunny San Rafael
Lived a Gal named Pearly Sweetcakes, You probaly knew her well.
She was stoned 18 of her 21 years
And she could smoke em faster than any cat could roll.
(Or something like that)
John Eaton
!hpvcfs1!johne
Jim Muller
>I know you weren't trying to insult me, but I can't avoid interpreting your
>comments as "You couldn't possibly have enough empathy to make your feelings
>about the subject of the song worth sharing", which hurts.
You are right that I was not trying to insult you, or anyone else! I don't
think I said, and certainly didn't mean, that you can't possibly have that
kind of empathy (though I did say that I can't always have it). What I said
was that that kind of empathy was critical, far more important than any accent.
--
- Jim Muller
Steve Goldfield
#>In article <1990Aug31.2...@NCoast.ORG> ac...@cleveland.freenet.edu writes:
#>>
#>>When I was a country music DJ on WGNU in St. Louis back in the early 70's,
#>>we played a Shel Silverstein tune called "A Front Row Seat To Hear Old
#>>Johnny Sing", which was very funny. And sometimes, if I needed to fill half
#>>a minute to time up to the hourly news, I would flip it over and play "The
#>>26-second Song".
#>>
#>>The complete lyrics to that are as follows:
#>>
#>>"All the DJ's keep complaining
#>>The tunes run much too long
#>>So I went out and wrote myself
#>>a 26-second song."
#>>
#>>(Would you believe there is a shorter record than that? Kenny Price sang one
#>>called "The Shortest Song In the World", and its running time is only 18
#>>seconds. I don't recall who wrote it. The entire lyric is this: "This is the
#>>shortest song in the world.")
#>
#>Oh, but there's a shorter one still. Unfortunately, not by
#>a country singer. It goes:
#>
#> "This song... is pretty damn short!"
#>
#>and lasts a good 5 seconds.
#>
#>--
#>Dale Shaver, Unify Technical Support Phone: (916) 922-1177, x 733
This discussion reminds me of Scotty Stoneman, who, while he was
playing with the Kentucky Colonels, got tired of drunks in bars
requesting he play "any damned thing." So he wrote a song with
that title and always played it upon request: play "Any Damned
Thing."
Steve Goldfield
Dan Parmenator-X Parmenter
(Steve Goldfield) writes:
>This discussion reminds me of Scotty Stoneman, who, while he was
>playing with the Kentucky Colonels, got tired of drunks in bars
>requesting he play "any damned thing." So he wrote a song with
>that title and always played it upon request: play "Any Damned
>Thing."
I always wanted to write a song, completely unrelated to the original
except by title, called "Freebird", so that all the morons in the audience
who invariably request it could be satisfied. The song's subject matter would
be people in audiences who shout out stupid requests, and its alternate
titles would include "Stairway to Heaven" and "Purple Haze".
- Dan
--
Randy Marchany
>
>A few years back, I had the fascinating experience of hearing one of my
>own songs performed by someone who had no idea who had written it. It
>was one of the finest moments of my life. To me, having a song
>actually enter the oral tradition is the closest thing to an Oscar the
>folk music world has to offer. I can't speak for Hamish Henderson, or
>Woody Guthrie or Stan Rogers or Wade Hemsworth or Cyril Tawney or any
>of the others whose music is easily mistaken for "traditional", but for
>myself, I wasn't insulted, I was proud.
>
I had a similar thing happen to me. It was even wierder because the
person was going to "teach" me a song that they had
learned from "somewhere". Needless to say, I was surprised when I
realized it was one that I had written.
I think the people that take issue with the evolving process of "folk
music" look at it in the short term. A hundred years from now, most of
the music written by 20th century folk musicians will probably be
described as "traditional". We can't see it clearly for music created in
our lifetime because the "oral tradition" hasn't had time to kick in.
-Randy Marchany
Internet: marc...@vtserf.cc.vt.edu
Doug Landauer
> folk musicians will probably be described as "traditional".
It's more likely that most of that music will be
described (if at all) as "forgotten". :-) :-)
Jon Berger
>In article <2...@skye.cs.ed.ac.uk> mo...@lfcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J. Findlay) writes:
>>
>>
>>The same thing seems to be happening with more recent authors
>>like Hamish Henderson, for example. I've seen his "51st Higland
>>Divisions Farewell to Sicily" described as "traditional".
>>
>>Why is this? Don't Folk musiciand *want* to acknowledge authors??
>>
>
>I don't think that's the problem. I think, as often, it's more simply that
[ various stuff deleted ]
>Then again, someone playing the air to Hamish Henderson's song owes him
>nothing. It's a traditional (possibly Scots-American) tune called "Farewell
>to the Creeks."
...which, of course, someone wrote. We don't know who, but it was
definitely someone. (Notwithstanding my sixth-grade music teacher's
definition of folk music, which was "music that wasn't written by
anyone." That's what she said, honest.) Our best guess, based on the
style and where we learned it and our gut feeling, is that it was
someone who died long enough ago that nobody else knows either, which
is more or less my definition of "traditional". Sometimes we go with
that and record the thing anyway, and sometimes we're wrong, and then
we get jumped all over by the likes of Ms. Findlay. In a genre which
supports a large body of artists who consciously try to compose in the
style of their long-dead antecedents, and which is perpetuated through
oral tradition and the "new oral tradition" of portable tape recorders,
it's not too surprising that these slip-ups happen. I don't think it's
really necessary to ascribe evil motives to anyone.
A few years back, I had the fascinating experience of hearing one of my
own songs performed by someone who had no idea who had written it. It
was one of the finest moments of my life. To me, having a song
actually enter the oral tradition is the closest thing to an Oscar the
folk music world has to offer. I can't speak for Hamish Henderson, or
Woody Guthrie or Stan Rogers or Wade Hemsworth or Cyril Tawney or any
of the others whose music is easily mistaken for "traditional", but for
myself, I wasn't insulted, I was proud.
I should add that I'm not talking about royalties here; that's an
entirely different issue. Copyrights should be respected. If someone
profits by performing anothers' work, the profits should be split; fair
is fair. But, call me naive if you will, I really don't think it's
very common for anyone to deliberately mislabel a modern song
"traditional" in order to avoid paying the royalty. For one thing, it
couldn't possibly work; for another, the actual monetary demands of a
royalty aren't painful enough to make it worthwhile.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Berger jo...@ingres.com {mtxinu,sun,amdahl,pyramid}!ingres!jonb
"Gentlemen, I regret to inform you that we're all drawings." -- B. Kliban
David M Tate
No need for the smileys, Doug. I think, when you get right down to it, that
this is the only definition that works. In the words of Star Trek, folk music
is "that which survives".
Certainly, some of the commercial popular music of our time will pass into
the folklore, and be remembered. Some of it will be from what we think of
as "traditional" or "folk" music, but much of it will not. The music of the
Beatles, for example, is already halfway there, and in another 30 or 40 years
will almost certainly qualify, the same way that the remembered songs of the
1890's (like "Bicycle Built for Two") already do.
Folk music is the stuff that people sing and play that was considered worth
remembering. Every composer's goal, in a sense, is for his music to stop
being "his" and to become "traditional". If the composer is *very* lucky, he
gets to have both, like Turlough O'Carolan or Woody Guthrie or Robert Burns...
--
David M. Tate | They said, "You have a blue guitar--
dt...@unix.cis.pitt.edu | You do not play things as they are."
"A Man for all Seasonings" | --Wallace Stevens
rst...@eagle.wesleyan.edu
> I always wanted to write a song, completely unrelated to the original
> except by title, called "Freebird", so that all the morons in the audience
> who invariably request it could be satisfied. The song's subject matter would
> be people in audiences who shout out stupid requests, and its alternate
> titles would include "Stairway to Heaven" and "Purple Haze".
but Your Mouth is Workin' Overtime."
Another approach:
I saw a guy named Ed Vadas doing a solo guitar and harmonica gig in a
Connecticut bar maybe 12 years ago, and some guy in the back kept
shouting "Hey man, do some Dead."
Ed took out a towel, wrapped it around his head and did a passable imitation of
Janis Joplin singing "Me and Bobby McGee" or "Piece of My Heart." Then he did a
few Elvis numbers. He may have thrown in"Purple Haze" too, or my hazy memory
has added it to embellish the story.
Anyhow, I think I was the only one in the place who got the joke.
Ed, mean while, went from being "Big Ed" to "Vast Ed" and has or had a band
called the Fabulous Heavyweights.
Bob in CT
Greg Bullough
>In article <1990Sep5.1...@ingres.Ingres.COM> jo...@hydra.Ingres.COM (Jon Berger) writes:
>>
>>A few years back, I had the fascinating experience of hearing one of my
>>own songs performed by someone who had no idea who had written it. It
>>was one of the finest moments of my life.
One fellow I know was really gratified when William Main Doerflinger
(_Chanteymen_and_Shanteyboys_ or _Music_of_the_Sailor_and_Lumberman_)
whipped out a tape recorder and asked him to sing one of his own songs so
he could "collect" it.
Jon mentioned that *someone* wrote "Farewell to the Creeks." Possibly.
However, just as possibly many "someones" evolved the the tune, changing
a note here, a phrasing there, etc., until we got what somebody first
transcribed to manuscript-paper. And THEY very likely "fixed" a couple
of things. Then along come folks of Krassner's ilk who attempt to
"correct" old established settings.
I have no doubt that the former process improves tunes and makes them
more "catchy." I have some doubts that the "repair" of tunes by
transcribers does much good whatever, though. Breandan Breathnach
mentions this habit of early scholars with some disdain.
Greg
Doug Landauer
The late Harry Chapin had my favorite response to those who would always
request that he sing his first hit yet again.
They'd yell out ... "TAXI!"
He'd say ... "Someone get that man a cab!"
Daniel Pearl
>the music written by 20th century folk musicians will probably be
>described as "traditional". We can't see it clearly for music created in
>our lifetime because the "oral tradition" hasn't had time to kick in.
I've seen it happen, right before my eyes. Take a great tune, like
"Fair Jenny's Jig". It has been recorded a lot over the years, and more
often than not, the tune is credited to that prolific composer, Trad.
Sometimes it is called an Irish tune, sometimes Scottish, or sometimes
a tune "from the Shetlands". The folk process plays tricks on the title,
too. I think I've seen it called "Sweet Jenny", or some such.
Anyway, the tune can't be more than 10 years old, and it was composed
by Peter Barnes, who lives in the Boston area.
One would think that people who make recordings would do a little
research!
--
Daniel Pearl Concurrent Computer Corporation, Westford, Massachusetts USA
(508) 392-2478 da...@westford.ccur.com
Jan Skurzynski
Speaking of modern (or at least recently written) music passing into the
realm of folk music I am reminded of an incident that happened just last
night. Several of our local area musicians got together to give a
concert out at the Idaho State Penitentiary. The effort was organized
and led by local resident and well-known musician (as well as good
friend) Rosalee Sorrels. All told there were six of us who played
in various groupings throughout the evening.
For those of you who have not had the pleasure of listening to Rosalee
perform her style is that of a singer/storyteller. One of the stories
she related last night was how she wrote a particular song and how it
seems to be passing into the realm of a folk song. The song (called
"I'm Gonna Tell") is a simple and fun story song that generally relates
the various threats kids make to each other in regards to tattling.
She remarked that over the years she has received many new verses from
people all over the country including 13 "dirty" verses from a folk
club in New England if I remember correctly. Children as well as adults
have contributed many new versions and sent them out to her. The song
has also been recorded several times in at least two versions that I'm
aware of. Anyway, she felt very good about the fact that one of her
songs appeared to be joining the ranks of American Folk Music.
All in all a most enjoyable evening for us as well as the "residents".
We all hope to do a lot more of this in the future (schedules permitting).
And as always, I personally appreciate the chance to work with such
wonderful musicians in a worthwhile and satisfying cause.
Jan Skurzynski
Killboy Powerhead
>The late Harry Chapin had my favorite response to those who would always
>request that he sing his first hit yet again.
>
>They'd yell out ... "TAXI!"
>
>He'd say ... "Someone get that man a cab!"
Jonathan Richman has been known to respond similarly to people who requested
one of his earliest songs (at least in the late '70s, when he wasn't doing
any of the original Modern Lovers material). In fact, I think this is
documented on the "Modern Lovers Live" album.
Someone in the audience yells "Pablo Picasso!"
Jonathan responds, in that little-boy tone of voice he has,
"No, my name is Jonathan".
-- Stewart
--
"Buy those skateboards, you Buckeyes."
-- Andy Whitman (a...@ncph.att.com)
/* uunet!sco!stewarte -or- stew...@sco.COM -or- Stewart Evans */
Jon Berger
>I've seen it happen, right before my eyes. Take a great tune, like
>"Fair Jenny's Jig". It has been recorded a lot over the years, and more
>often than not, the tune is credited to that prolific composer, Trad.
>Sometimes it is called an Irish tune, sometimes Scottish, or sometimes
>a tune "from the Shetlands". The folk process plays tricks on the title,
>too. I think I've seen it called "Sweet Jenny", or some such.
>
>Anyway, the tune can't be more than 10 years old, and it was composed
>by Peter Barnes, who lives in the Boston area.
>
>One would think that people who make recordings would do a little
>research!
Would one, now? I've responded to this sort of thing before, and I'll
do it again. Perhaps Mr. Pearl would be willing to offer some pointers
on how us people that make recordings should go about doing this
research?
Let's take a hypothetical, but by no means unlikely, case. Let's say I
go to my local Irish session or music camp or folk festival or
whatever, and someone plays this nice tune, which I learn. I ask the
person who played it where s/he got it, and s/he says, "Gosh, I don't
know, I think I learned it a while ago at my local Irish session or
music camp or folk festival or whatever. It's called, uhhh, `Sweating
Johnny' or something like that."
Now, cut to three months later. I'm making a tape, I really like the
tune, and I want to record it. What should I do? All I know about the
silly thing is that I learned it from someone who didn't know who wrote
it. I've never heard it before; nobody I know has ever heard it
before. Do I go to my local folk music archive and look it up under
A-C#-E-G<natural>-etc? Do I appeal to the vastly knowledgeable
rec.music.folk, describing the tune in a similarly textual fashion? Do
I simply assume that it was most likely written by Peter Barnes or Ewan
MacColl or Pat Shaw, and forget the whole thing?
In fact, what I probably do is make my best guess and go ahead and
record it. This is, in fact, the best possible way to find out if it
was written in recent memory: if it was, sure as hell someone is going
to recognize the tune and send me an irate letter, usually ending with
a few well-chosen sentences questioning my ethics, devotion to
folkloric scholarship, pitch perception, and brand of rosin.
To them I say, and to Mr. Pearl I say: look folks, it's not that I'm an
idiot, and it's not that I don't care, and it's not that I'm trying to
avoid paying royalties. It's just that modern folk composers tend to
write in the traditional idiom, which is another way of saying that
they deliberately try to make their songs sound like they were written
100 years ago. This leads to people occasionally mistaking a modern
song for an old one, and that's just the way it goes. _Every_ song and
tune was written by _somebody_, and not knowing that Peter Barnes wrote
"Fair Jenny's Jig" is no more an insult to him than not knowing who
wrote "Wind that Shakes the Barley" is an insult to whoever that was.
Sorry if I sound histrionic. I really don't mind finding out who wrote
what; I quite enjoy it, actually. It's just that the "God, how can you
be so *stupid*" attitude gets old pretty quick.
Daniel Pearl
about a tune?
I have not confronted this particular problem, as I compose
dance sequences, and not tunes. I can never be sure I
haven't composed an already existing sequence. If I come up with something
interesting, I compare it against my collections of thousands of dance
sequences looking for uncomfortable similarities. If my sequence is close
to another, then I'll either change my creation or bill it as a modification
of the existing sequence (and not give it a new name). If I ever decide
to publish anything, I'll be damned sure to give drafts to callers around
the country to see if they have seen anything like my "original" sequences.
The last thing I want to do is to steal credit from the original choreographer.
Perhaps people who are recording "traditional" tunes can do something
similar. Many identifiably traditional tunes can be found in the
big collections like Coles or O'Neills, and in other collections. It is
likely they have been recorded MANY times over the years. New
"traditional-sounding" tunes are a different kettle of monkeys. These
are often not published, but transmitted from musician to musician. Some
enterprising soul will transcribe the tune and 10th generation copies of
that transcription will percolate around the world.
But there are some people who know who composed the tune.
These people are most likely found near the home of the composer, but
the way people travel, they can be found most anywhere. How do you
reach these people? One might record a demo cassette of the
tunes whose identities are in doubt and distribute
a dozen copies to colleagues across the country. I'd say it is highly
likely that one of those persons, or a friend of theirs, will
have more information on the source of the tune.
There is time to do this sort of thing. Records take a while to make, and
the labels and covers tend to be one of the last things produced. Of course,
if clearances and copyrights are of concern, then this kind of research must
be done relatively early, before the mastering.
It does take a little effort, but I think it is the classy and right
thing to do.
Ellen EADES
>In article <54...@masscomp.ccur.com> da...@joisey.westford.ccur.com (Daniel Pearl) writes:
>>One would think that people who make recordings would do a little
>>research!
>
>idiot, and it's not that I don't care, and it's not that I'm trying to
>avoid paying royalties. It's just that modern folk composers tend to
>write in the traditional idiom, which is another way of saying that
>they deliberately try to make their songs sound like they were written
>100 years ago. This leads to people occasionally mistaking a modern
>song for an old one, and that's just the way it goes.
Yeah, I agree with both of you, and I think it's less black-and-white
than you're making it out to be. For example, I think it's entirely
within the realm of reason that you will have performed "Sweating Johnny"
many, many times live before you actually record it. You could tell
your audiences, "That last medley was 'Bring In the Pigs', 'John Henry
Ford,' and 'Sweating Johnny,' and the first two are Shetland Island
tunes and we don't know where the last one came from," and who knows --
someone may eventually come up to you at a concert and say, "Hey, that
was written by Seamus O'Grady O'Doherty," and they might even be right.
Or wrong. I'm sure misattributization of folk tunes is almost as large
a problem as attributization to "Trad" is.
Plus, a lot of tunes evolve out of other tunes. I wrote a song over the
weekend in honor of my cat, who saved my life and was wounded in the line
of duty on Saturday morning when she ate a spider that had been lurking
in my bathtub waiting to ambush me. She got bitten as it went down.
Anyhow, after I'd started humming the tune and I'd gotten the first
line ("There was a monster in the shower this morning..."), I realized
that I was ripping off the tune to John McCutcheon's song, "Red Corvette."
Did I immediately go, "Oh shit, I gotta get a new tune for this thing!"?
No ... I went, "Oh shit, now I'll have to remember two sets of lyrics
to the same tune." But I finished the song, it's a great song, and it
happens to have John's tune. If I ever record it, I'll get permission...
but that happens, and it was completely unconscious on my part. I haven't
heard "Red Corvette" for a year. It just happened to fit. If I hadn't
noticed that I was ripping off the tune, I might have announced in concert
that it was my tune and my lyrics, and then someone eventually would have
told me I was stupid and malicious and trying to avoid paying royalties.
Gads, no one ever told me traditional music was so damn complicated!
Ellen Eades
David Mostardi
>>I've seen it happen, right before my eyes. Take a great tune, like
>>"Fair Jenny's Jig". It has been recorded a lot over the years, and more
>>often than not, the tune is credited to that prolific composer, Trad.
>>Sometimes it is called an Irish tune, sometimes Scottish, or sometimes
>>a tune "from the Shetlands". The folk process plays tricks on the title,
>>too. I think I've seen it called "Sweet Jenny", or some such.
>>
>>Anyway, the tune can't be more than 10 years old, and it was composed
>>by Peter Barnes, who lives in the Boston area.
>
>go to my local Irish session or music camp or folk festival or
>whatever, and someone plays this nice tune, which I learn. I ask the
>person who played it where s/he got it, and s/he says, "Gosh, I don't
>know, I think I learned it a while ago at my local Irish session or
>music camp or folk festival or whatever. It's called, uhhh, `Sweating
>Johnny' or something like that."
"Fair Jenny" is perhaps not the best example. Peter Barnes wrote the tune,
but did not advertise the fact for several years in order to see if the
tune would become popular on its own merits. It did, and now he has
admitted authorship.
David
--
******************************************************************
David Mostardi "Where the coffee is strong,
MSRI, Berkeley the cat is good-looking,
da...@msri.org and all the theorems are above-average."
d...@gnu.ai.mit.edu
>Plus, a lot of tunes evolve out of other tunes. I wrote a song over the
>weekend in honor of my cat, who saved my life and was wounded in the line
>of duty on Saturday morning when she ate a spider that had been lurking
>in my bathtub waiting to ambush me. She got bitten as it went down.
>Anyhow, after I'd started humming the tune and I'd gotten the first
>line ("There was a monster in the shower this morning..."), I realized
>that I was ripping off the tune to John McCutcheon's song, "Red Corvette."
>Did I immediately go, "Oh shit, I gotta get a new tune for this thing!"?
>No ... I went, "Oh shit, now I'll have to remember two sets of lyrics
>to the same tune." But I finished the song, it's a great song, and it
>happens to have John's tune. If I ever record it, I'll get permission...
>but that happens, and it was completely unconscious on my part. I haven't
>heard "Red Corvette" for a year. It just happened to fit. If I hadn't
>noticed that I was ripping off the tune, I might have announced in concert
>that it was my tune and my lyrics, and then someone eventually would have
>told me I was stupid and malicious and trying to avoid paying royalties.
And I'm betting that you probably didn't rip off the tune wholesale, but
rather snagged a bit of it, perhaps the main riff, or something.
Which brings me to the next controversy. Over on rec.music.misc, there's
been a fairly feverish battle over whether or not rap, or other
music that makes use of samples is "true" music. Somebody or other
claimed that Led Zeppelin ripping-off "You Need Love" by Willie
Dixon and not crediting him was just a case of "expanding" on the
orignal themes, whereas sampling by rappers was just straight theft.
I and other sane individuals pointed out that that was a load of
crap, an an absurd double standard.
You see, I genuinely believe that most rappers who use samples are using th
samples in interesting and novel ways, that often sound nothing like
the original. Granted, some rappers cross the line, such as MC Hammer
lifting the main riff of "Super Freak" completely. Others pointed
out that while this is true, MCH is one of the few rappers who actualy
gives credit and pays royalties to the people he samples.
So, the question I pose to rec.music.folk is this: Is sampling a
genuine instance of something like the "folk process"? My feeling is
that it is, particularly when the artist makes something entirely
new out of it. To me, it doesn't seem that different from what Ellen
described - she in essence "sampled" a riff and incorporated it into a novel
song.
- Dan
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Elvis was seated on the toilet, actually reading a religious book...when
suddenly a terrible pain gripped him by his stomach and seized his heart with a
strangler's grip. 'Oh no, dear dear God,' he thought. He couldn't move. He
couldn't get up. He had to get up. He must get up...That terrible pain, like
swords of fire, jabbing, slitting, cutting into his stomach, and especially his
liver - it was impossible to bear...Suddenly the thought flashed through him:
this must be like what Jesus suffered."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Muller
(Jon Berger) writes:
>Let's take a hypothetical, but by no means unlikely, case. Let's say I
>go to my local Irish session or music camp or folk festival or
>whatever, and someone plays this nice tune, which I learn. I ask the
>person who played it where s/he got it, and s/he says, "Gosh, I don't
>know, I think I learned it a while ago at my local Irish session or...
This is not just hypothetical, but extremely typical of many bluegrass
festivals. The person teaching the song to someone else may or may not
know its source. Sometimes it gets lost in the shuffle of conversation,
or amid a flurry of details of words and chords, etc. The burdens of both
teaching and learning really should include any source info though, even
if just out of respect for the original author. If you like a song, you
should appreciate the creativity that produce it. The job of spreading
source info isn't really that hard, since it can include the author or
a publisher or a record title or even just the fact that it was recorded
by such and such in about the year 19zippity-do. This flags it in the mind
of the learner as coming from somewhere tangible. But no matter whose
"job" it should be, the fact is that it takes very few generations of this
teaching/learning cycle for the author to be forgotten. And it certainly
is not helped by the fact that in some music fields people are only to
ready to accept a song as "traditional" whether or not there is reason to
believe so. In a nutshell, that festival situation you described may be
just about the *least* trustworthy source of reliable info on where songs
come from. If you learn something that way, you should research it further,
whether you plan to record it or just perform it.
>Now, cut to three months later. I'm making a tape,...
So now it is all the more imperative that you did that research over the
last three months. But you asked "How?" and that is a fair question. One
way is to call BMI and ask for info on the song by its name. The computer
search will take a few seconds, though the kind soul who answered their
phone may gasp "There are 6 pages of songs entitled 'Cousin Lenny'!" Or
you can start looking through your obscure-record collection, or asking
friends who have record collections. Better yet, call your favorite DJ
on your favorite non-mainstream radio station. Or call the persons who
organized that festival you learned it from in the first place. You could
write to a magazine or two, such as Bluegrass Unlimited. Now, all this may
take time, which means you can't just toss a tape together in a few months
(we've been planning our next recording for 4 months and we go into the
studio in December). You owe it to the authors and also to the following
musicians who will learn from you and possibly be led astray to do this
reasearch as accurately as possible. Your recording is, after all, a form
of archiving.
--
- Jim Muller
Randy Marchany
>
>You see, I genuinely believe that most rappers who use samples are using th
>samples in interesting and novel ways, that often sound nothing like
>the original. Granted, some rappers cross the line, such as MC Hammer
>lifting the main riff of "Super Freak" completely. Others pointed
>out that while this is true, MCH is one of the few rappers who actualy
>gives credit and pays royalties to the people he samples.
>
>So, the question I pose to rec.music.folk is this: Is sampling a
>genuine instance of something like the "folk process"? My feeling is
>that it is, particularly when the artist makes something entirely
>new out of it. To me, it doesn't seem that different from what Ellen
>described - she in essence "sampled" a riff and incorporated it into a novel
>song.
>
>- Dan
Sure, why shouldn't it be? After all, musicians put together discrete
elements (notes) in sequence to make up a song. Rappers put together
discrete elements (samples) to make up a riff. The ART is in how both
cases arrange the elements. I don't believe there's any difference
between the two forms. There are only so many notes in a scale and the
odds that sooner or later you'll get a repeat of a previous sequence are
pretty good. NPR did an interesting piece a while back on all of the
pieces in modern music that had themes that sounded remarkably similar
to their theme song for "All Things Considered".
Consider this: what if you met someone who heard any of Wierd Al
Yancovic's songs BEFORE hearing the originals that he spoofed? Then they
hear the original versions, if they have no background on either artist,
which would they think was the original version?
-Randy Marchany
Internet: marc...@vtserf.cc.vt.edu
Andrew Tannenbaum
it came from, for the attribution, instead of the usual "Trad" you put
"Don't know." Nah, that would never work, it's not pretentious enough.
Andrew Tannenbaum Interactive Cambridge, MA +1 617 661 7474
Ellen EADES
>>I was ripping off the tune to John McCutcheon's song, "Red Corvette."
>
>genuine instance of something like the "folk process"? My feeling is
>that it is, particularly when the artist makes something entirely
>new out of it. To me, it doesn't seem that different from what Ellen
>described - she in essence "sampled" a riff and incorporated it into a novel
>song.
Uh, no -- in the case I was describing, I took the ENTIRE TUNE and
wrote new lyrics to it. There are a couple of places where I sing
a different note in the same chord John uses, but that's not enough
(the courts have ruled) to call them two different tunes. I have
definitely got to credit the music to McCutcheon -- this is not a
sampling or a riff I was talking about. It's the same as when a filk
musician writes new lyrics to a well-known song.
But as far as your question goes, I think sampling does reflect the
folk process. Artists have made visual montages of Mona Lisa's eyes
and Marilyn Monroe's face since before Andy Warhol popularized the
process. Making an audial montage of recognizable riffs and putting
them together into a new piece of art doesn't strike me as fundamentally
different.
But this is significantly different from someone using a recognizable
riff, not as a montage, but as a way to grab attention. In other
words, if you didn't write "Purple Haze," I don't think you have a
right to open a piece of music with the same electric guitar chords
and then go into something different, because you're using Jimi's
trademark sound to get people to listen to your stuff, and that just
degenerates into "Name That Tune." Not fair.
Ellen Eades
Richard Gordon
Methinks the difference between a folk musician and a guy playing
covers is that the folkie tells people where he stole the material!
Heck, we are all folk, aren't we?
Seriously, part of playing "folk" music honestly is to acknowledge
sources accurately, particularly in concert settings and on
recordings.
--
Richard Gordon gor...@udel.edu
ACS, Smith Hall, Univ. of Delaware or ric...@brahms.udel.edu
Newark, DE 19716 USA or acs0...@udelvm.bitnet
(302) 451-1717 or c/o the Plywood Cattle Co.
Greg Bullough
>
>Seriously, part of playing "folk" music honestly is to acknowledge
>sources accurately, particularly in concert settings and on
>recordings.
However I believe that a musician who pays the proper royalty for his or
her "for profit" performances has fulfilled the moral obligation to the
author. I don't think that each and every song requires that the singer
label it as by "a great young songwriter named..." unless they really want
to. That doesn't mean that they can pass off others' songs as their own.
On the other hand, endless introductions of songs also become tiresome.
Greg
Jim Hori
>How about this: If you are recording a tune, and you don't know where
>it came from, for the attribution, instead of the usual "Trad" you put
>"Don't know." Nah, that would never work, it's not pretentious enough.
>
than anywhere in the world, in the old days (60's/70's), when
covering any song, instead of crediting a writer one would see
"adopted" under the title - a typically Jamaican twist on the
language, but with its own sweet kind of logic.
....
jimh