Nic Jones: A Belated Introduction
Dave Webber
here during the past couple of weeks, I'm surprised and disappointed at the
number of people who, strangely for a folk music NG, seem unfamiliar with
Nic and his work. Perhaps it's geography--Nic was for many years one of the
biggest stars on the UK folk circuit but remains little-known in North
America. If you don't know Nic Jones, you should! Serendipitously, there
was an excellent article on Nic, written by Alan Murray, in the April/99
issue of 'Folk Roots" a magazine to which every regular on this NG should
hold a lifetime subscription. It's quite simply the finest magazine on folk,
world and roots music on the planet. Check out their website at
<www.froots.demon.co.uk>.
Anyway, the Nic J. article (one of many about Nic that FR has published over
the years, supportive bunch that they are) tells us that, among other
things: "Canadee-I-O", the trad song whose arrangement was allegedly
purloined by Dylan, is on "Penguin Eggs", Nic's last studio album (1980) and
the only one of his six original albums currently in print, on the Topic
(UK) label. (The FR article notes dryly that Dylan "...is not unfamiliar
with Nic's work". The English have such a gift for understatement.) Nic
himself is playing guitar again, but his badly injured right hand "...still
won't obey orders to his satisfaction". (The entire right side of Nic's body
was shattered in the 1982 auto accident which ended his performing career;
he was in hospital for six months, much of that time in a coma. That he
survived at all is remarkable. With all his reconstruction, airport metal
detectors tend to go berserk when he walks through!). Nic has however,
contributed vocals to several of Gerry Hallom's recent CDs and his memory,
once seriously scrambled, has improved greatly in recent years.
Unfortunately, it is still doubtful whether he will ever be able to resume
actively performing.
Despite his many challenges, Nic remains a positive, upbeat, and warm human
being who prefers to look to the future rather than dwell on the past.
Besides being one of the finest folk/trad guitarists and singers in Britain,
Nic was also an accomplished fiddler, and his fiddling style has been a
strong influence on Eliza Carthy, among others. (Eliza has twice recorded
Nic's lovely "Ten Thousand Miles"-- used without credit in the film "Fly
Away Home".) Eliza's father, Martin Carthy OBE, recently recorded a version
of "Sir Patrick Spens" using Nic's famously influential tune for the song.
You can hear the performance on Martin's superb 1998 CD, "Signs of Life",
on the Topic/Green Linnet label.
I found some of the arguments presented in that long thread puzzling to say
the least, No one was arguing that Nic deserved to be paid arranger's
royalties simply because he is disabled. That's an extraordinarily
patronizing attitude which he would be the first to reject. Rather, it was
simply because, as Folk Roots editor Ian Anderson noted in his NG post of
June 6, there exists "...very strong evidence that Dylan did get his version
from Nic's". (If you missed it, you can seek out Anderson's post on DejaNews
for the whole story.) A public thank-you to Nic Jones for the song, from
Dylan, would probably have been sufficient; certainly it would have
satisfied Nic, who, perhaps ironically, has always cited Dylan as one of
his own formative musical influences.
But let's not start all that up again. Rather, let us all hope and pray that
the health of Nic Jones, a bona fide folk music legend, continues to
improve, that the fool who holds the rights to most Nic's catalog of
recordings (see below) will see fit to bring them back into print, thereby
allowing Nic to once again earn something from his art, and that Nic Jones
will be given his rightful place in the international folk music pantheon.
PS: Nic's albums , in order of release, are: "Ballads and Songs"
(Trailer (UK), 1970), "Nic Jones" (Trailer, 1971), "The Noah's Ark Trap"
(Trailer (UK)/Shanachie (US), 1977) (a superb album), "From the Devil to a
Stranger" (Transatlantic/Leader (UK), 1978, "Bandoggs" (Transatlantic, 1978)
(a short-lived attempt at forming a folk music "supergroup", with Pete &
Chris Coe & Tony Rose), "Penguin Eggs", and 1998's "In Search of Nic Jones"
(Mollie Music) a wonderful compilation of odds and ends painstakingly
assembled and privately released by Nic and his wife Julia. It is currently
available only by mail order from the UK, though there is talk of a NA
release. This album, ironically, shows Nic branching out in a whole new
direction in the final months before his accident, singing several of his
own songs, one by Loudon Wainwright, and performing a guitar arrangement of
"The Teddy Bears' Picnic"! There may be a companion volume to this CD on the
way.
These albums are all gems and are eminently worth the trouble of seeking
them out. Again, at this time only "Penguin Eggs" is readily available on CD
in North America. Good luck!
Keith Weston
available CD from Nic (in the US, at least) is one of the absolute best folk
recordings of the 1980s. That it's not better known is one of the greatest
shames. I was swept away then as now by "Canidee-i-o". That track is also
available on a Rhino Bros. collection of the greatest folksingers of the
1980's.
Best regards,
Keith Weston
WUNC Radio
Dave Webber wrote in message ...
Len Holton
>Given the length of the "Dylan shafted Nic Jones" thread that's been growing
>here during the past couple of weeks, I'm surprised and disappointed at the
>number of people who, strangely for a folk music NG, seem unfamiliar with
>Nic and his work. Perhaps it's geography--Nic was for many years one of the
>biggest stars on the UK folk circuit but remains little-known in North
>America. If you don't know Nic Jones, you should!
(excellent post snipped)
I'm pleased to report that *some* progress is being made to make some
NA listeners more aware of Nic. I presented a program back in March
devoted entirely to Nic, from my available collection which has some
notable omissions alas...but it is rather nice to have some good news
coming out of Arkansas for a change :-) Here's the play list:-
Nic Jones - The Lass Of London City - Nic Jones - Trailer
Nic Jones - Napoleon's Lamentation - Nic Jones - Trailer
Nic Jones - Bonny Bunch Of Roses - Nic Jones - Trailer
Nic Jones - Miles Weatherhill - The Noah's Ark Trap - Shanachie
Nic Jones - The Isle Of France - The Noah's Ark Trap - Shanachie
Nic Jones - Crockery Ware - The Noah's Ark Trap - Shanachie
Bandoggs - The Tailor In The Tea Chest/Astley's Ride/Up & Away -
Bandoggs - Highway Records
Nic Jones - The Drowned Lovers - Penguin Eggs - Topic
Nic Jones - The Flandyke Shore - Penguin Eggs - Topic
Nic Jones - Texas Girl At The Funeral Of Her Father - In Search Of -
Mollies Music
Nic Jones - Ruins By The Shore - In Search Of - Mollies Music
Nic Jones - Rose Of Allendale - In Search Of - Mollies Music
ryan...@tc.umn.edu
>
> Given the length of the "Dylan shafted Nic Jones" thread that's been
>growing here during the past couple of weeks, I'm surprised and
>disappointed at the number of people who, strangely for a folk music NG,
>seem unfamiliar with Nic and his work.
Why? This is an international folk music discussion group, and not a UK
folk music discussion group. I'm betting there are a lot of folk
musicians in the UK North American and other posters have never heard of.
How much do you know about Larry Long or Buddy Red Bow?
Folk music is tied to the communities from which the musicians hail. Why
would any one be "surprised and disappointed" that folk music acts from
their own region aren't world renowned?
>Perhaps it's geography--Nic was for many years one of the
> biggest stars on the UK folk circuit but remains little-known in North
> America. If you don't know Nic Jones, you should!
Why should we know who Nic is? Should many UK folk fans know who Dave
Lippman is? Or the Bone Tones?
> Serendipitously, there was an excellent article on Nic, written by Alan
>Murray, in the April/99 issue of 'Folk Roots" a magazine to which every
>regular on this NG should hold a lifetime subscription.
Well,apparently you are't too discriminating in your folk music tastes or
opinions with a statement like this. Why would North Americans need to
have a subscription to your favorite UK folk music magazine to be
suitably informed about the folk music scene? I think that's a pretty
arrogant assumption...not to mention the fact that there are other very
good folk music magazines from those isles that deserve just as much, if
not more attentiont than Folk Roots...
> It's quite simply the finest magazine on folk, world and roots music on
>the planet.
Well, that explains the gist of this post, now doesn't it? Who are you
"defending" here--Nic Jones or Ian Anderson?
> Check out their website at <www.froots.demon.co.uk>.
> Anyway, the Nic J. article (one of many about Nic that FR has published
>over the years, supportive bunch that they are) tells us that, among
>other things: "Canadee-I-O", the trad song whose arrangement was
>allegedly purloined by Dylan, is on "Penguin Eggs", Nic's last studio
>album (1980) and the only one of his six original albums currently in
>print, on the Topic (UK) label. (The FR article notes dryly that Dylan
>"...is not unfamiliar with Nic's work". The English have such a gift for understatement.)
And arrogant presumption too. So, is this current thread in
rec.music.folk nothing more than a thinly disguised attempt by FR &
their fans to shore up the "official" FR spin regarding Nic Jones? The
more I read about all this, the more I have to say I feel something from
your side the pond is very wrong in all this...It has a very coercive and
manipulative feel to it. And it gives me a sick feeling in my gut...
> Nic himself is playing guitar again, but his badly injured right hand
>"...still won't obey orders to his satisfaction". (The entire right side
>of Nic's body was shattered in the 1982 auto accident which ended his
>performing career; he was in hospital for six months, much of that time
>in a coma. That he survived at all is remarkable. With all his
>reconstruction, airport metal detectors tend to go berserk when he walks
>through!). Nic has however, contributed vocals to several of Gerry
>Hallom's recent CDs and his memory, once seriously scrambled, has
>improved greatly in recent years.
This is precisely the sort of disingenuous posting from the Jones camp
that I previously objected to. Perhaps the poster is unaware that
disabled people who suffer from chronic pain have serious memory
problems. Or that they also suffer from depression. Or that only a
handful of them will ever be able to make their bodies do what they once
did. Or that most disabled people have never been able to play a
guitar...
> Unfortunately, it is still doubtful whether he will ever be able to
>resume actively performing.
> Despite his many challenges, Nic remains a positive, upbeat, and warm
>human being who prefers to look to the future rather than dwell on the
>past.
Spare me, please. As far as I'm concerned, this statement falls squarely
in the "inspirational cripple" category. I'd much rather hear about the
*real* Nic Jones, including the one who was devastated by his
disability, his chronic depression, linked to the profound sadness and
sense of loss from no longer being able to play, that sort of thing...
>
> Besides being one of the finest folk/trad guitarists and singers in
>Britain, Nic was also an accomplished fiddler, and his fiddling style
>has been a strong influence on Eliza Carthy, among others. (Eliza has
>twice recorded Nic's lovely "Ten Thousand Miles"-- used without credit
>in the film "Fly Away Home".) Eliza's father, Martin Carthy OBE,
Oh yeah, don't forget the medals...
>recently recorded a version of "Sir Patrick Spens" using Nic's famously
>influential tune for the song. You can hear the performance on Martin's
>superb 1998 CD, "Signs of Life", on the Topic/Green Linnet label.
>
> I found some of the arguments presented in that long thread puzzling to
>say the least,
We can certainly see why--you don't appear to know any disabled people...
>No one was arguing that Nic deserved to be paid arranger's
> royalties simply because he is disabled. That's an extraordinarily
> patronizing attitude which he would be the first to reject. Rather, it
>was simply because, as Folk Roots editor Ian Anderson noted in his NG
>post of June 6, there exists "...very strong evidence that Dylan did get
>his version from Nic's".
OK--so Ian Anderson claims that Dylan was familiar with Nic Jones'
version, and I wouldn't dispute that. But what is Ian Anderson
suggesting that Dylan and/or the North American folk community do about
it? What exactly are you saying needs to be done here to right the wrong
done to Nic Jones? And who is responsible to see that it be done?
Dylan? The North American folk music community? Me, for having called
this whole thread a despicable exploitation of the "inspirational
cripple" stereotype by the UK/Nic Jones folk music camp?
>(If you missed it, you can seek out Anderson's post on DejaNews
> for the whole story.) A public thank-you to Nic Jones for the song,
>from Dylan, would probably have been sufficient; certainly it would have
> satisfied Nic,
Are you an official spokesperson for Nic Jones? For Folk Roots? If you
aren't, what gives you the right to come into a public forum and say what
would or would not satisfy Nic Jones? Or suggest that the article
published in Folk Roots is, in fact, true?
>who, perhaps ironically, has always cited Dylan as one of
> his own formative musical influences.
>
> But let's not start all that up again. Rather, let us all hope and pray
>that the health of Nic Jones, a bona fide folk music legend, continues
>to improve,
And if his health, like most disabled peoples' health *doesn't*
improve, just what do you suggest that North American folk music fans do
about it?
> that the fool who holds the rights to most Nic's catalog of
> recordings (see below) will see fit to bring them back into print,
>thereby allowing Nic to once again earn something from his art, and that
>Nic Jones will be given his rightful place in the international folk
>music pantheon.
Amen to that. But its a British folk music business that is responsible
for that, not North Americans, or Dylan for that matter. So why are you
suggesting with this disingenuous post that North Americans are somehow
guilty of a travesty of injustice against Nic Jones?
I'm sure as shit not suggesting that UK folk music fans should be aware
of Spider John Koerner, or his recent health problems. Or because you
aren't, that you are somehow a bunch of uncaring, patronizing assholes
because you aren't listening to his music...
Janet Ryan
G. M. Watson
I'm sorry to have to say this, considering how much I admired your stance on
the Paul Simon/RSA discussion, but IMHO your reaction to this post borders
on the hysterical. It saddens me. I'm not sure what set you off here. The
post I think you're responding to here seemed to me to be a pretty neutral
attempt to dispense some information, for those who might be interested, on
one of the more gifted folksingers of our time, who happens to be from the
UK. I appreciated the post, in the spirit of sharing information. No more,
no less. Frankly, the poster seemed to be a lot more rational and less
biased in what he was trying to say than many of the rest of us who were
ranting in that thread.
You're firing off in so many directions it's hard to know what to respond to
first and anyway right now I don't have the time. But I will say this: For
whatever we call "folk music"-- however you, I or whoever choose to define
it (and that would be a good topic for another thread) to survive, we have
to transcend such illusory barriers as international borders. We can't
afford that kind of parochialism any more if the music we love is to survive
into the new millenium. Calm down, take a couple of deep breaths, and let
the music play.
One more thing: As someone who has quite a number of disabled friends and
colleagues, ranging from amputees to respirator-dependent quadraplegics, I
resent your patronizing and offensive use of the word "cripple"
("Inspirational cripple"??! Come *on*!). This is ghettoization, plain and
simple. Whether it has been your experience or not, many disabled people
have worked hard to get past their physical challenges and lead rich,
rewarding lives, refusing, like Nic Jones, to wallow in depression and
defeatism. Think of Christpher Reeve, if you insist on an American example.
Most of my disabled friends regard the word "cripple" with the same distaste
African-Americans do the word "nigger" women do "bitch", or mentally
challenged persons do "retard". This isn't about being P.C. It's about being
polite.
----------
Genia Ainsworth
ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:
>
> Dave Webber wrote:
> >
> > Given the length of the "Dylan shafted Nic Jones" thread that's been
> >growing here during the past couple of weeks, I'm surprised and
>Why? This is an international folk music discussion group, and not a UK
> folk music discussion group.
You answered your own question here, it is an *international* folk music
discussion group, (not a US group), and Nic Jones was a major
international influence.
He is well known and respected in Canada, and the folks I met in
Australia knew him too.
I don't know what you have against FolkRoots, but it's the most
interesting music magazine I've found. It's very much an international
magazine, with readers all over the world.
The usual American complaint is that it doesn't feature x y or z
singer-songwriter. Thank heavens! There are thousands of them, and most
will never be of international interest.
I am surprised at how many Canadian and American artists DO appear,
considering the multitudes to choose from.
I don't always agree with Ian Anderson, but I sure appreciate his
educating me musically, and introducing me to new and exciting artists.
I subscribe to Dirty Linen as well, and it's a good US magazine, but
doesn't have the international scope of FR.
Your remarks about *cripples* are inexcusable.
Many disabled persons get over the anger and depression, and do pick up
their lives. As a nurse I'm often amazed and inspired by those with
severe disabilities who refuse to be held down, and who recover against
incredible odds.
Many never will improve, for various reasons, but none of them deserves
your ugly name calling!
You've made me sorry I defended you the other day.
I hope you've just had a bad day, and you aren't really as hate-filled
as you sound.
Take some time off and go enjoy some music.
Genia :-)
ryan...@tc.umn.edu
>
> Your remarks about *cripples* are inexcusable.
>
And IMO, so was the disingenuousness of the article I was responding to.
I'm on my way to spend the day at the Sister Kenney Institute for Chronic
Pain at Abbott-Northwestern Hospital with my former partner, who was
disabled 12 years ago. I'm also a pretty dedicated advocate for
disability rights--you might even say I'm militant about it. As I said
earlier on in this thread, I'm not trying to pull rank here. I thought
the Nic Jones thread came to a reasonable, thoughtful conclusion until I
read this post which I felt attempted to undo all the hard work we'd gone
through in that thread, and get it all going again.
I know I'm just as guilty of the same myself here. That
seemingly enigmatic, paradoxical behavior is what makes me human though,
doesn't it? But if you closely observe the way I post, you will see
that I am consistent when it comes to my principles. This is an issue
of principle for me. I understand the way I chose to express myself
about it in the last post will cause many people to dismiss what I said.
But I also know that it will get through to some people on a deep level,
and make them think about why the post I responded to illicited the kind
of response from me that it did.
I waited a number of days before I decided to respond. My anger never
dissipated, and remained as white hot as the moment I first read this
post.
And now that I'm on the soapbox, let me share some things with you. I
can't count the number of times I have gotten out of my car, and asked
fully abled people quite nicely and politely to move out of the
disability parking space theyu are occupying without a permit, so the
person I'm with who *does* have a disability permit, can park, and was
met with a torrent of verbal abuse that pales in comparison to what I
wrote yesterday.
One "reasonable" but telling response was made to me once by a passer-by
who, upon observing a woman who I had asked politely but firmly to move
her car out of the only available disability parking space, screaming in
my face "You're not my mother. You can't tell me where to park. I can
park here if I want to. I can park anywhere I feel like it, and you can't
make me leave. Fuck you, you bitch." The comment from the passerby (to
me) was "Take it easy lady--why are you hassling this woman, its *only* a
parking space."
I used the word "cripple" in this post in the same way I did in a
previous post in the Nic Jones thread. I'm fully aware of its
implications, and used it intentionally to shock people then, as I did in
this post. No one was up in arms when I used it before, so why the
sudden change of attitudes toward my use of the same word? Why are
people shocked and disgusted with my use of the word today, but said
nothing when I used it in the Nic Jones thread before?
The easy answer is because of the difference in the tone of my posts.
The first was all polite and nice. The second was angry. Damn angry.
The easy answers go out the window in the face of such complex
responses. I'm willing to admit I'm dead wrong here for the way I
tried to bring what I felt was insidiously prejudiced behavior in this
newsgroup, in this thread, to people's attention, as my principlies
demand I do. I was all nice and polite about this the first time round.
When I saw the same damn thing happening again, and the poster invoking
the most powerful and influential people on the UK folk music scene to do
it, I got very angry.
Was my response inappropriate to the circumstance? Maybe, maybe not.
People on this newsgroup, like every place else in society at large, are
often ignorant about what is and isn't patronizing, what is and isn't
disingenuous, and what is and isn't an important issue for disabled
people. Just like there are a lot of people in this newsgroup who
choose to remain ignorant about sexism, about racism, and about bigotry
and intolerance when it shows up here too.
If you have been here for any length of time and read my posts, you would
know that I *do* become angry in some of my posts where I feel people are
engaging in such behaviors. The one you read yesterday was one such
post.
From what I've been able to suss out from the Nic Jones thread, Folk
Roots and a few of their readers have decided to make a bit of a crusade
out of Nic Jones' disability vis a vis Dylan. Its being done in very
underhanded ways, and in ways that feeds into people's ignorance about
disability rights issues. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with
the disability issues Nic Jones or any other person with a disability
faces day in and day out. They aren't saying we should be giving more
attention to disabled artists on our music programs. Access to disabled
artists in our folk music venues. Artistic license to disabled artists
to express themselves, to speak for themselves, and to use *their* voice
in the expression of their aristic vision. What they've been going on
about is some imagined conspiracy by Dylan to exploit Nic Jones that none
of them, under close questioning and scrutiny of their positions, has
been able to prove even remotely.
*That* is what I find despicable here.
> Many disabled persons get over the anger and depression, and do pick up
> their lives. As a nurse I'm often amazed and inspired by those with
> severe disabilities who refuse to be held down, and who recover against
> incredible odds.
IMO, the above statement you've made is a good example of what many
disability rights activists I know refer to as "invoking the
inspirational cripple" stereotype to deny and avoid dealing with the real
issues confronting disabled people. Its a prejudice most people don't
even know exists, much less are aware they themselves fall prey to it
unthinkingly.
G.M. Watson mentioned Christopher Reeves, who's name usually comes up in
these discussions about disability rights because of his star status, and
the fact that his accident was filmed and replayed on tv repeatedly. He
is often invoked as an example of how well a disabled person can
"recover" from being disabled. We of course feel tremendous empathy and
pity for him and his family. And I would never suggest we should react
otherwise.
But Christopher Reeves' progress is directly related to his wealth.
Christopher Reeves received more care in the first month after his
accident than most people who become disabled receive in their lifetime.
When I tell stories about the people I've encountered in the chronic pain
disabled student, and disabled worker communities, many of whom have been
denied insurance coverage since becoming disabled, and can only afford a
minimum of medical attention, or talk about the percent of disabled
persons addicted to drugs and alcohol, or cite the stastics on divorce in
families with a disabled partner, they don't come away feeling quite so
uplifted or inspired. Its true that some disabled people are lucky
enough to do well. The majority don't have it so easy. And if I'm
perceived by some of you as evil incarnate for saying so, so be it.
It would certainly be nice if all the wonderful comments about disability
issues made in the Nic Jones threads weren't rife with these "disabled
people who have recovered against all the odds" comments. It really
would. I don't know if those of you making these comments are aware of
the inconsistency of your statements--you probably aren't. So let me
point it out to you--if you recover, you aren't disabled. Permanently
disabled people don't "recover" from their injuries. They reach a state
of wellness, if they're lucky, that can be maintained for long periods
between relapses.
In this last post, I did spew some choice words, its true. And I used
the very un-PC word "cripple" in the same way it is used by some
disability rights activists to shock people out of their complacency and
smug attitudes towards disabled people. I don't expect all people from
the disabled community would support such use of the term even in that
context, but I do know there are many who do. Regularly. To make the
points I'm trying to make here.
> You've made me sorry I defended you the other day.
I don't take stands on my principles based upon whether they make me
popular or not Genia. And if you are that fickle about yours, and give
support to people so conditionally, maybe you need to think on that.
And I'd like to ask people to consider this. In all your years of
involvement with folk music, how many disabled musicians have you
interacted with? How many of them are able to get their music or
performances out to the greater folk music community?
I didn't read the Folk Roots article that obviously started these
newsgroup threads about Nic Jones, so I can't comment on it. But my
comments on the way the Folk Roots defenders and some UK posters were
posting on the subject were made clear. If Folk Roots or anyone else in
the folk music community wants to take a position advocating for disabled
musicians, I will be the first to applaud their efforts. But that is
most definitely *NOT* what I've witnessed in these Nic Jones threads.
Janet Ryan
G. M. Watson
whether or not Dylan appropriated his song arrangement w/o acknowledgement
or not. It was you that chose to make it a "disabled" issue. No one in the
thread made the issue of Nic's injuries/disablement/call it what you will a
big deal until you jumped in, guns blazing. I can see you have issues around
the topic of disablement, but honest to god, Nic Jones' friends, Nic Jones'
advocates at "Folk Roots" (why on earth are you so furious with them, by the
way? Did they do you dirt at some time in the past?), and Nic himself have
never made it a major issue. If there's "issues" around Nic's disablement,
they relate primarily to the sense of loss his friends and fans feel at
being deprived of a great musician and Nic's being deprived of a career.
Period. Full stop.
Your intentional distortions make it sound like every second issue of Folk
Roots features a heartrending full-page photo of Nic made up as Tiny Tim,
complete with crutch, tragic expression, and outstretched palm, begging for
sympathy, while that manipulative puppet master Ian Anderson cackles evilly
offstage. I've read the FR article that the poster referred to (and my
original post on the topic weeks ago was in no way directly inspired by that
article, but by the whole Dylan/Jones issue, which I've been following for
some years in various media) and, like all the other articles I've read
about Nic in FR and other magazines (some of them even American--sorry), it
makes a point of how he does NOT want to make an issue of his disablement
(or whatever you want to call it) and maintains a remarkably upbeat
attitude, all things considered. That's the kind of person he's evidently
chosen to be. Why can't you allow him to feel that way? Why must you insist
he's a "cripple" and try to load him down with all kinds of baggage,
symbolic and otherwise? Nic's physical state, ultimately, has no direct
bearing to the Dylan issue, which, being one of artist's rights, would
remain the same even if Nic had never had his accident.
Incidentally, I agree with you about the Chris Reeve wealth/care issue. I
have the advantage of living in a country (Canada) with universal medical
insurance. In our medical care system, we, thankfully, don't have those
repugnant and frightening class distinctions you unfortunate Yanks have to
deal with. Maybe you ought to channel that considerable energy of yours into
working towards bringing about a similar system in the States instead of
wasting it screaming at people in parking lots. That would be a lot more
useful to everyone in the long run.
Respectfully,
GM Watson
----------
ryan...@tc.umn.edu
>
> You know, Janet, the main issue revolving around the Nic Jones thread
>was whether or not Dylan appropriated his song arrangement w/o
>acknowledgement or not.
Then why was nearly half of Dave Webber's original post about Nic Jones'
disability, including his comments on the ways his disability was
discussed in the previous thread? Re-read his post. I bowed out of the
last thread as gracefully as I could. The thread died out. Dave
Webber's post was nothing more than a blatant attempt to start the whole
thing up again. It was flame bait.
>It was you that chose to make it a "disabled" issue.
I think your memory is a little too conveniently selective. Re-read the
previous thread.
> No one in the thread made the issue of Nic's injuries/disablement/call
>it what you will
Excuse me? If you re-read that thread, you will find it being invoked by
the FR/Jones defenders repeatedly before I ever put a toe in the water.
> big deal until you jumped in, guns blazing.
I did no such thing.
> I can see you have issues around the topic of disablement,
Actually I don't have "issues." That's a trendy little buzzword used
often nowadays to dismiss peoples' dissenting, controversial or strongly
expressed point of view.
I regularly advocate for two disabled people, on average about 3 times a
week. Sometimes more often, sometimes less. I advocate for them because
the bureacratic system upon which they rely for their care and to have
their needs met is arrogantly adversarial. Just as you are being here,
IMO.
> but honest to god, Nic Jones' friends, Nic Jones' advocates at "Folk
>Roots"
OK--how about we clarify this point here and now. Just what are the
writers and editors at Folk Roots advocating for Nic Jones for? In what
way are they acting as his advocates, and who are the adversarial parties
involved that require them to act as Nic Jones' advocates? Its a
question I keep asking, and no one seems to be willing to answer.
What are the Folk Roots personnel and the Jones fans advocating? What
are they demanding be done on Nic Jones' behalf? Who are they making
those demands of? That's what responsible advocates do--they make
demands on behalf of people who, for whatever reason, are not able to
advocate for themselves.
>and Nic himself have never made it a major issue.
I won't take your word for that. Nic Jones can speak for himself. He
doesn't need Folk Roots or his fans to do that for him.
> Your intentional distortions make it sound like every second issue of
>Folk Roots features a heartrending full-page photo of Nic made up as
>Tiny Tim, complete with crutch, tragic expression, and outstretched
>palm, begging for sympathy, while that manipulative puppet master Ian
>Anderson cackles evilly offstage.
Who is being hysterical? Who is intentionally distorting?
> I've read the FR article that the poster referred to (and my
> original post on the topic weeks ago was in no way directly inspired by
>that article, but by the whole Dylan/Jones issue, which I've been
>following for some years in various media) and, like all the other
>articles I've read about Nic in FR and other magazines (some of them
>even American--sorry), it makes a point of how he does NOT want to make
>an issue of his disablement (or whatever you want to call it) and
>maintains a remarkably upbeat attitude, all things considered.
Again, you are presuming to speak on behalf of Nic Jones, when you have
no right to do so. Nic Jones can speak for himself. And your prejudices
are bleeding all over us. Why is Nic's upbeat attitude "remarkable" if
it is his nature to be upbeat? Why do you presume that because Nic Jones
has not chosen to advocate for disability rights publicly, that he
doesn't have opinions on them? Why do you presume to dismiss the
opinions of other people involved in disability rights advocacy and
activism when they have raised them in regards to this
non-controversy some people have insisted upon stirring up on Nic Jones'
behalf?
> That's the kind of person he's evidently chosen to be. Why can't you
>allow him to feel that way?
This is ludicrous. Nowhere in any of these posts have I said anything
about how Nic Jones should feel, act, think or any such thing.
> Why must you insist he's a "cripple"
I never called Nic Jones or anyone else a cripple. Get your facts
straight if you want to contribute meaningfully to this conversation.
You are accusing me of saying things I never said or insinuated.
> and try to load him down with all kinds of baggage, symbolic and
>otherwise? Nic's physical state, ultimately, has no direct
> bearing to the Dylan issue, which, being one of artist's rights, would
> remain the same even if Nic had never had his accident.
So why have so many posters from the Jones camp kept bringing it up?
Again and again and again?
> Incidentally, I agree with you about the Chris Reeve wealth/care issue.
So why did you invoke his name, if not to reinforce your own attempts to
invoke an "inspirational" figure who was disabled and "overcame" his
disability?
>I have the advantage of living in a country (Canada) with universal
>medical insurance. In our medical care system, we, thankfully, don't
>have those repugnant and frightening class distinctions you unfortunate
>Yanks have to deal with.
So who the hell do you think you are ranting on about this, when you
admit you have no experience of what I'm talking about, or understanding
of why I decided it was important enough to risk the wrath of the
newsgroup to raise these issues in the contexts I have?
> Maybe you ought to channel that considerable energy of yours into
> working towards bringing about a similar system in the States
I am. Been doing it for over a decade. I'm a political activist. And
your contribution to the disabled community is....?
> instead of wasting it screaming at people in parking lots.
This statement is way out of line. I trust you are referring to what I
wrote in my post to Genia, which you even quoted below. I don't spend my
time advocating for disabled people screaming in parking lots. Again,
get the facts straight before you shoot your mouth off.
Here is what I *did* say:
>>One "reasonable" but telling response was made to me once by a
>>passer-by who, upon observing a woman who I had asked politely but
>>firmly to move her car out of the only available disability parking
>>space, screaming in my face "You're not my mother. You can't tell me
>>where to park. I can park here if I want to. I can park anywhere I
>>feel like it, and you can't make me leave. Fuck you, you bitch." The
>>comment from the passerby (to me) was "Take it easy lady--why are you
>>hassling this woman, its *only* a parking space."
Janet Ryan
Dave Webber
---Nikos Kazantzakis, "Zorba the Greek"
To the NG:
This will probably go down, rightly or wrongly, as the longest post in this NG's history. My
dad always told me that if someone slaps you across the face or insults you that the smart
play is to just walk away, but I never was good at following his advice. Janet Ryan's three
posts in the last couple of days, in which she launches a vitriolic, insulting, and
profoundly ignorant attack on me, have made me absolutely livid. I feel I have to respond,
and so be done with it. As I state at the end (way, *way* down there) this is my last post on
this topic. Incidentally, the reason it's so damn long is that I felt I had to deal with her
comments on my post-- point by point. You may have to pay careful attention at itmes to know
who's speaking, as there are three separte voices here-- me, me, and Janet Ryan.Those with
sensitive ears or eyes and/or those who are disturbed by flame wars are advised to leave now.
Stand back, the rest of you. This is not going to be pretty.
ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:
> Dave Webber wrote:
> >
> > Given the length of the "Dylan shafted Nic Jones" thread that's been
> >growing here during the past couple of weeks, I'm surprised and
> >disappointed at the number of people who, strangely for a folk music NG,
> >seem unfamiliar with Nic and his work.
>
> Why? This is an international folk music discussion group, and not a UK
> folk music discussion group. I'm betting there are a lot of folk
> musicians in the UK North American and other posters have never heard of.
Yeah, that's true, there are, and in my small "disingenuous" (=sneaky, right?) way I tried to
change that a little. My post re Nic was an attempt to give those who might be interested a
bit more information about a very fine musician and singer, one I've admired for along time,
who happens to be from the UK. Why is that such a problem for you? Perhaps you feel that,
since you evidently choose to remain pig-ignorant about any music that doesn't originate or
happen in your own backyard, so should everyone else, and if there's any way for you to
bully people into your kind of petty small-mindedness, you will. How pathetic. Those of us
for whom music- folk, jazz, classical, or anything else-- is a global art form like to share
what we've discovered with others. I've done radio shows, written articles, worked in record
stores, volunteered at folk festivals and clubs, talked to people in groups and one-on-one,
and in general have done whatever I could over the years to spread the gospel. I think of all
this as acts of subversion, committed in the belly of the Leviathan that is contemporary
popular American culture.
At any rate, the name of this NG is "rec.music.folk", not
"rec.music.folk.approved.by.J.Ryan". You must have a hell of a time at folk festivals trying
to avoid all the performers that don't come from Minnesota.
Frankly, I watched the Dylan/Jones flame war with growing distaste, wondering when the
various factions were going to stop shouting and instead try to listen to one another. With a
dedicated screamer like you leading the charge on one side, it's no wonder this didn't
happen. My post was offered in the spirit of communication and reconciliation. You can put
whatever bizarrely distorted spin on it you want, but that's all it was. Maybe you need to
adjust your Lithium intake.
>
>
> How much do you know about Larry Long or Buddy Red Bow?
I'm familiar with them both, and saw Larry Long at a festival a few years back. What is
this, some kind of stupid one-upmanship game? OK, fine. How much do *you* know about
Shoukichi Kina, Oom Kulthoum, Mzwakhe Mbuli, Rosa Eskanazi, Rufus Guinchard, Riley Puckett,
Jeannie Robertson, King Solomon Hill, Jerry Alfred, Joe Heaney, Lydia Mendoza, Nimrod
Workman, or Mustafa Al-Kurd? Hmmm? Hell; I can play this game all night, but it's kind of
boring and petty, doncha think?.
>
>
> Folk music is tied to the communities from which the musicians hail. Why
> would any one be "surprised and disappointed" that folk music acts from
> their own region aren't world renowned?
How are you defining "community" here? By friends & colleagues/like-minded
people/party/cult/gender/gender orientation/artistic discipline/ethnic origin/physical
ability/building/block/neighbourood town/city/county/state/country/continent/planet? How,
exactly? Robert Johnson, so far as is known, never played for a white audience or outside of
the South. Yet 60+ years later, he's known and heard around the world. A musician I know
travelled up the Sepik River in New Guinea a few years ago, seeking players of traditional
music and musical instruments indigenous to the area, an area once richly diverse in musical
cultures. What he found instead in every village was groups of young kids listening to
Madonna and Snoop Doggy Dogg on portable tape decks. Communities, and their boundaries,
change, especially now, more than ever, under the ever-developing, relentless impact of
communications technology and mass-marketed culture. Their music changes with them.
Sometimes, as in the Sepik, it dies.
And so yeah, I'm perpetually disappointed that people like you, who would be expected to
know better, can't be bothered to step outside their narrow definitions of what for them is
acceptable or worthwhile culture. Thanks to people like you who sit smugly in your little
tightly-defined musical universes, traditional music is everywhere endangered. Of course, I'm
totally unrealistic, because I'm also disappointed that millions of people idolize Elton John
and Celine Dion and have never heard of, for example, Fernando Machado Soares or, outside of
the folk music world, Arturo Benedetti Michaelangeli. I'm perpetually disappointed at the
profound ignorance of worldwide traditional and traditionally based music forms by consumers
of mass popular culture. I've spent 35 years working hard to expand my knowledge and
understanding of worldwide music in all its forms. I could spend another 50 years and still
be a rank beginner. But hey, I'm a freak. Pay no attention to me and and turn that top-40
station back on.
>
>
> >Perhaps it's geography--Nic was for many years one of the
> > biggest stars on the UK folk circuit but remains little-known in North
> > America. If you don't know Nic Jones, you should!
>
> Why should we know who Nic is? Should many UK folk fans know who Dave
> Lippman is? Or the Bone Tones?
So you don't spend the rest of your life wallowing in self-imposed ignorance. Also because
he's a great artist, whether you can accept that or not. Also to help the music survive (see
above).
>
>
> > Serendipitously, there was an excellent article on Nic, written by Alan
> >Murray, in the April/99 issue of 'Folk Roots" a magazine to which every
> >regular on this NG should hold a lifetime subscription.
>
> Well,apparently you are't too discriminating in your folk music tastes or
> opinions with a statement like this. Why would North Americans need to
> have a subscription to your favorite UK folk music magazine to be
> suitably informed about the folk music scene? I think that's a pretty
> arrogant assumption...not to mention the fact that there are other very
> good folk music magazines from those isles that deserve just as much, if
> not more attentiont than Folk Roots...
Not that I've seen. See next annotation. "Suitably" informed? I think "better" informed
would be more appropriate. Are you stupid enough to think that because Folk Roots is a UK
magazine, they only cover UK folk music?! ?
>
>
> > It's quite simply the finest magazine on folk, world and roots music on
> >the planet.
>
> Well, that explains the gist of this post, now doesn't it? Who are you
> "defending" here--Nic Jones or Ian Anderson?
I'm not "defending" anything, but I am proselytizing. What strange ideas you do have, to be
sure. I'm merely trying to let those who may be interested know about a profoundly useful
source of information on folk music. I stand by my statement. Folk Roots provides better,
broader, more in- depth coverage of folk, folk-based and traditional musics-- not just from
the UK, but from North America and indeed around the world-- than any other English-language
periodical I have EVER come across in decades of research in this field. It is an invaluable
tool for anyone wishing to broaden thier knowledge or musical horizons.
Unfortunately, Folk Roots certainly has nothing to offer to people like yourself, who've
obviously driven themselves nuts by trying to use only two hands to cover their ears and eyes
at the same time while repeatedly screaming "Go away!" at anyone trying to offer them
something useful. Have you ever read C.S. Lewis' wonderful "Narnia Chronicles", by the way?
Of course not; silly me. It's an *English* book. Anyway, in the final volume, "The Last
Battle", there's a relentlessly and determinedly ignorant band of dwarves (sorry, but that's
what Lewis called them) whose behavior and general attitude reminds me unnervingly of you.
Have a look sometime. (I think it's available in an American edition, so at least that will
make it partly OK to do so.)
>
>
> > Check out their website at <www.froots.demon.co.uk>.
> > Anyway, the Nic J. article (one of many about Nic that FR has published
> >over the years, supportive bunch that they are) tells us that, among
> >other things: "Canadee-I-O", the trad song whose arrangement was
> >allegedly purloined by Dylan, is on "Penguin Eggs", Nic's last studio
> >album (1980) and the only one of his six original albums currently in
> >print, on the Topic (UK) label. (The FR article notes dryly that Dylan
> >"...is not unfamiliar with Nic's work". The English have such a gift for understatement.)
>
> And arrogant presumption too. So, is this current thread in
> rec.music.folk nothing more than a thinly disguised attempt by FR &
> their fans to shore up the "official" FR spin regarding Nic Jones? The
> more I read about all this, the more I have to say I feel something from
> your side the pond is very wrong in all this...It has a very coercive and
> manipulative feel to it. And it gives me a sick feeling in my gut...
That "sick feeling" you have emanates from a place about two feet higher, I'd say. Why are
you so paranoid about Folk Roots? They write about Nic Jones for the same reason Down Beat
wries about Wynton Marsalis. To their readership, he's a star. Have you been stalked by Ian
Anderson or something? What the hell's your problem? Why this Anglophobia?
Alternative answer: Yeah, I confess, I 'm a tool of the international Folk Roots conspiracy.
Anderson promised me 1000 pounds and tickets to the next Cambridge Folk Festival. My orders
were to coerce, manipulate and browbeat the readers of rec.music.folk into swallowing the
"official" FR spin about Nic Jones. It's a good thing you found me out before I succeeded in
doing serious damage to impressionable American folkie minds. God forbid they should learn
something new. Can I get asylum on your "side of the pond"? (Which is somewhere just east of
Wackyland, it would seem.)
>
>
> > Nic himself is playing guitar again, but his badly injured right hand
> >"...still won't obey orders to his satisfaction". (The entire right side
> >of Nic's body was shattered in the 1982 auto accident which ended his
> >performing career; he was in hospital for six months, much of that time
> >in a coma. That he survived at all is remarkable. With all his
> >reconstruction, airport metal detectors tend to go berserk when he walks
> >through!). Nic has however, contributed vocals to several of Gerry
> >Hallom's recent CDs and his memory, once seriously scrambled, has
> >improved greatly in recent years.
>
> This is precisely the sort of disingenuous posting from the Jones camp
> that I previously objected to. Perhaps the poster is unaware that
> disabled people who suffer from chronic pain have serious memory
> problems. Or that they also suffer from depression. Or that only a
> handful of them will ever be able to make their bodies do what they once
> did. Or that most disabled people have never been able to play a
> guitar...
Much of that paragraph was paraphrased from the FR article. But really, Janet, this is
patronizing bullshit you're spreading around here. You know nothing about me. Would it help
if I told you that my partner of 18 years, once a gifted pianist, has suffered from chronic
inflammation and pain throughout her body for much of the past seven years? That no doctor
or specialist or therapist can tell her what is causing it, or offer an effective lasting
treatment? That more and more she faces the very real possibility of losing her job, leaving
her profession and career, and becoming for all intents and purposes unemployable at the age
of almost 50? That as a result of all this she has experienced profound depression and has
lately talked of suicide? Don't you DARE presume to patronize me! You know NOTHING about me
or my life! As for my familiarity with other disabled people, I know a good deal more than
you think. See below.
>
>
> > Unfortunately, it is still doubtful whether he will ever be able to
> >resume actively performing.
> > Despite his many challenges, Nic remains a positive, upbeat, and warm
> >human being who prefers to look to the future rather than dwell on the
> >past.
>
> Spare me, please. As far as I'm concerned, this statement falls squarely
> in the "inspirational cripple" category. I'd much rather hear about the
> *real* Nic Jones, including the one who was devastated by his
> disability, his chronic depression, linked to the profound sadness and
> sense of loss from no longer being able to play, that sort of thing...
Now who's claiming to know all about Nic Jones' thoughts and feelings? How do *you* know who
the "*real*" Nic Jones is or isn't? Why do you want him to be a tragic, haunted figure? Do
you feel more comfortable around disabled people who are convinced they're helpless and
therefore dependent on you? Sounds to me like Nic and his spouse have worked past all that.
When I said he was upbeat, I'm merely repeating what I've heard about him from everyone who's
come into contact with him. But then, Nic refuses to be slotted into the pigeonhole you've so
carefully prepared for him. That must really tick you off, I guess (see below).
And by the way, do you routinely call Nelson Mandela an "inspirational nigger", Gandhi an
"inspirational wog", or the students who died at Tienanmen "insprational chinks"? When I
first started spending time around disabled people, I was startled to hear them casually
referring to each other as "gimps". I got used to it, but I wouldn't dream of referring to
one of my disabled friends as a "gimp", no more than I'd call my Jewish freinds "kikes".
"Cripple" is a hurtful, limiting word. You can use it to refer to your ex-partner if it's OK
with that person, I guess, but an awful lot of other physically challenged people will get
pretty angry with you if you use it to refer to them, and rightly so. Curb your tongue.
>
>
> >
> > Besides being one of the finest folk/trad guitarists and singers in
> >Britain, Nic was also an accomplished fiddler, and his fiddling style
> >has been a strong influence on Eliza Carthy, among others. (Eliza has
> >twice recorded Nic's lovely "Ten Thousand Miles"-- used without credit
> >in the film "Fly Away Home".) Eliza's father, Martin Carthy OBE,
>
> Oh yeah, don't forget the medals...
Oh, yeah, don't forget the sneers... You may think that only singers from Minnesota matter,
but in England Carthy's OBE was seen as an overdue honor not only for him and for his stellar
career as one of this century's greatest and most influential performers and scholars of
traditional music, but also as recognition of English folk music as an indigenous art form of
the most profound significance. And if you want to take issue with these statements, I
couldn't give a good goddamn, because there are an awful lot of people in the UK-- and in
North America-- and elsewhere who would agree.
>
>
> >recently recorded a version of "Sir Patrick Spens" using Nic's famously
> >influential tune for the song. You can hear the performance on Martin's
> >superb 1998 CD, "Signs of Life", on the Topic/Green Linnet label.
> >
> > I found some of the arguments presented in that long thread puzzling to
> >say the least,
>
> We can certainly see why--you don't appear to know any disabled people...
If you can stop spitting venom for a moment, Janet, come over and meet my friend Don D. Don
dived into a shallow pond one day when he was 10 years old and broke his neck. Don's a
quadraplegic; has no movement below his neck; gets around in a breath-steered wheelchair. He
spent 18 years (!) bedridden in an instituion, in a ward with a dozen other guys. In 1985 he
was able to move into a specially-designed unit in a newly-built housing co-op and thus
became my neighbor. Don's home consists of six private rooms with a common social area. His
roommates are all quads, all respirator-dependedent, most of whom had been instituionalized,
none longer than Don. They live independent lives, in independent apartments with a common
area, with a careperson on duty 24 hours a day. A couple of the younger ones are still beer
drinkers and hell raisers and hang with the same sort of scuzzy friends that got them into
their accidents. Don, in contrast, was elected to our Board of Directors, enrolled in
accounting courses, and eventually he got a job as an industrial accountant. Then he met the
woman of his dreams, a non-disabled lady. Don and she were married. He moved out and now
they live on their own; Don's wife was trained in how to care for him.
Or step this way and have a talk with Walt L. Walt was in the same institution as Don, but
for only 12 years. When Walt moved into our community, he was already a spokesperson and
activist in the disabled community. Walt's a high-function quad; he ahs some movement in his
upper body. Walt works with numerous community groups and disabled-rights organizations.
Eventually he was recruited for civic politics. Walt ran for our local parks board a few
years ago and finished high up in the polls, though he didn't get elected. Walt's one of the
sweetest, kindest, most upbeat people I've ever known, and one of the most inspirational.
Among many other activities, he tours high schools, talking to kids on what it means to be
disabled. Walt, too, got married a couple of years ago and they got a house of their own. We
were happy for him but sorry as hell to lose such a good member.
Over here's my friend M. M., a paraplegic, for years has coordinated disabled access at our
local folk festival. I met M. by accident 20 years ago when I entered the wrong room at the
performers' hotel and stumbled across M. and a well-known folk musician she'd been pursuing
all weekend in flagrante delicto, so to speak. We laugh about it now when we think back; what
a dramatic way to begin a long-term friendship.
Or shake hands with Jim B., one of the finest white R&B singers and guitarists anywhere. He's
got a whiskey-smooth singing voice that was just made for smoke-filled bars. Jim comes from
St. Louis. When he was in his early 20s he was hit by a drunk driver and lost both his legs.
He wears prostheses and walks with two canes. In the 25 years since his accident he's become
a renowned and beloved local performer, host of his own local TV show, an actor in several
internationally-syndicated TV series, and a dozen other things.
I think I've made my point. Granted, these are all exceptional people, but each of them
refuses to wear the "inspirational cripple" costume society cuts for them. They simply get on
with their lives, and with helping others, and try to avoid people like you who try to
control their lives, tell them what to think. how to act, how to feel, and keep reminding
them that they're helpless cripples. I"ve met people like you, Janet. I've met your type in
rehabilitation centers, in welfare offices, and in skid row missions. It really pisses off
people like you when your "helpless crippples" and your "helpless" poor suddenly start to
demand the right to independence and self-determination. When they don't want you to mentor
and "support" them any more. When that happens, people like you can't control and manipulate
them any more. You lose your power over them. That's the real issue here, isn't it? Power and
control. People like Nic Jones refuse to act like the stereotype you want them to be, they
refuse to wallow in their personal tragedy, and that really pisses you off, doesn't it? They
don't need you. Pinocchio cuts his strings and there's nothing more for the puppeteer to do.
Take my advice, Janet. Get therapy. You need it.
>
>
> >No one was arguing that Nic deserved to be paid arranger's
> > royalties simply because he is disabled. That's an extraordinarily
> > patronizing attitude which he would be the first to reject. Rather, it
> >was simply because, as Folk Roots editor Ian Anderson noted in his NG
> >post of June 6, there exists "...very strong evidence that Dylan did get
> >his version from Nic's".
>
> OK--so Ian Anderson claims that Dylan was familiar with Nic Jones'
> version, and I wouldn't dispute that. But what is Ian Anderson
> suggesting that Dylan and/or the North American folk community do about
> it? What exactly are you saying needs to be done here to right the wrong
> done to Nic Jones? And who is responsible to see that it be done?
> Dylan? The North American folk music community? Me, for having called
> this whole thread a despicable exploitation of the "inspirational
> cripple" stereotype by the UK/Nic Jones folk music camp?
Christ, I don't know. Picket Dylan concerts? Launch a class-action lawsuit? What needs to be
done is for people to bloody well educate themselves about alternative forms of music and
about issues like this, when they arise, and not spend most of their time with their heads up
their ass obediently waiting for the next Garth Brooks CD.
>
>
> >(If you missed it, you can seek out Anderson's post on DejaNews
> > for the whole story.) A public thank-you to Nic Jones for the song,
> >from Dylan, would probably have been sufficient; certainly it would have
> > satisfied Nic,
>
> Are you an official spokesperson for Nic Jones? For Folk Roots? If you
> aren't, what gives you the right to come into a public forum and say what
> would or would not satisfy Nic Jones? Or suggest that the article
> published in Folk Roots is, in fact, true?
Nic Jones is the one and only offical spokesperson for Nic Jones. I'm sure you're pissed that
he's healthy enough to be able to speak for himself, but there it is. I've been a reader of
Folk Roots for over a decade, but Ian Anderson still speaks for the mag as far as I know. We
have a pretty active folk club and folk festival in our town, both of which bring in a lot of
touring Brits, and I have been able to talk to enough people in recent years who work in or
have connections with the UK folk scene, some of whom who have known Nic since long before
his accident, to be able to get some idea of the man and how he wants to live his life. The
article in Folk Roots mostly confirmed a bunch of stuff already known to people who have
kept track of this story.
>
>
> >who, perhaps ironically, has always cited Dylan as one of
> > his own formative musical influences.
> >
> > But let's not start all that up again. Rather, let us all hope and pray
> >that the health of Nic Jones, a bona fide folk music legend, continues
> >to improve,
>
> And if his health, like most disabled peoples' health *doesn't*
> improve, just what do you suggest that North American folk music fans do
> about it?
It quite possibly won't. I'd like them to be aware of Nic and his work and to care about him.
Also, to buy his albums if and when they become available again. It's a win/win situation;
Nic will be able to pay some bills and purchasers of his albums will have a wonderful musical
experience.
>
>
> > that the fool who holds the rights to most Nic's catalog of
> > recordings (see below) will see fit to bring them back into print,
> >thereby allowing Nic to once again earn something from his art, and that
> >Nic Jones will be given his rightful place in the international folk
> >music pantheon.
>
> Amen to that. But its a British folk music business that is responsible
> for that, not North Americans, or Dylan for that matter. So why are you
> suggesting with this disingenuous post that North Americans are somehow
> guilty of a travesty of injustice against Nic Jones?
Crap. Come off it. "Disingenuous"---oh darn, you've discovered my my hidden agenda again. My
god, how you like to put words in people's mouths! Ignorance of Nic and his career is the
only "injustice" being commited here, and that's more an artistic injustice than anything
else. Those who refuse to learn about an artist of his calibre do an injustice mostly to
themselves.
>
>
> I'm sure as shit not suggesting that UK folk music fans should be aware
> of Spider John Koerner, or his recent health problems. Or because you
> aren't, that you are somehow a bunch of uncaring, patronizing assholes
> because you aren't listening to his music...
If you knew anywhere near as much as you want everyone to think you do about Spider John,
you'd know that he has a sizable fan base in England, and that he's toured over there many
times, playing clubs and festivals. They love him, and so they should. He's a great performer
and always has been. So popular is Spider John in the UK, in fact, that, ironically-- and
you're gonna hate this-- Folk Roots did a cover story on him a while back. Big, detailed
story and interview, color photos; better coverage than anything I've ever seen in, say,
Dirty Linen. They (he) talked a lot about Spider John's health problems, too.
Face it, Janet. You're full of bile, hatred, anger, self-righteousness, unhappiness, and
paranoia, but what you're mostly full of, besides yourself, is shit. I have nothing more to
say to or about you and I want to hear nothing more from you on this or any other topic.
This is my last communication on this subject.
D. Webber
>
>
george...@my-deja.com
"G. M. Watson " <gor...@istar.ca> wrote:
> Janet:
> I'm sorry to have to say this, considering how much I admired your
stance on
> the Paul Simon/RSA discussion, but IMHO your reaction to this post
borders
> on the hysterical. It saddens me. I'm not sure what set you off here.
This seems as good a point as any to pitch in some info, given that I
agree with all that G M Watson has written, and applaud his/her very
courteous expression of those views.
The sad fact is that there is a strong antipathy between Janet and Folk
Roots which seems to be colouring Janet's contributions here.
> Whether it has been your experience or not, many disabled
people
> have worked hard to get past their physical challenges and lead rich,
> rewarding lives, refusing, like Nic Jones, to wallow in depression and
> defeatism. Think of Christpher Reeve, if you insist on an American
example.
And it has to be stressed that Nic and his family have never sought to
capitalise on his disability. Nor does the Folk Roots article. That
article is, IMO a fine piece of work, managing to get the balance right
in giving information about Nic's current state of health (which many
people are interested in; I was far from alone at feeling a deep sense
of personal loss at Nic's accident, and despair at his prospects for
recovery) without being intrusive or voyeristic.
>This isn't about being P.C. It's about being
> polite.
Surely that equates EXACTLY with true/valid "Political Correctness"?
As for whether more people ought to be aware of Nic as a performer -
Janet, why not let them try "Penguin Eggs" and judge for themselves?
(Though I've always found PE less satisfactory than the lost-forever
records, "From the Devil to a Stranger" and "Noah's Ark Trap" - whose
titles I've probably mis-remembered).
Regards
George
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
ryan...@tc.umn.edu
> The sad fact is that there is a strong antipathy between Janet and Folk
> Roots which seems to be colouring Janet's contributions here.
You know George, the sad fact is there is a level of childishness and
vindictiveness some of you uk.music.folk posters are willing to stoop
which is utterly amazing to me.
I became curious when I read your post--suspicious actually--that
something was a bit off with this thread, so I duck into uk.music.folk, a
newsgroup I haven't participated in for awhile now due to unwarranted
harrassment and near constant personal attacks by a group of
uk.music.folk posters which includes yourself and Ian Anderson, and what
do I find?
Well, it seems that the mature, level headed editor of Folk Roots himself
has run home to uk.music.folk to tattle on me because I'm being mean to
him. Yes, that's right. Started a thread--a whole thread--about little
ole me, to whom he refers to as "the Janet virus." This in a newsgroup
that regularly harrasses and hounds people for posting virus warnings ad
nauseum, and shames them if they engage in name calling.
Apparently, Ian's post wasn't the first time a uk.music.folk poster has
chosen to post about me, knowing I'm not there to defend myself, since I
left the uk.music.folk newsgroup because of harrassment like you are
trying to start up here in rec.music.folk. I was told another poster
went tattling back to uk.music.folk on me because of my posting in
rec.music.celtic. And now you come into rec.music.folk and attempt to
start your harrassment campaign here. What's up with all of you
anyway? How much of a threat can one woman posting in newsgroups be to
the lot of you?
You men in uk.music.folk are the most paranoid people I've ever
encountered on the Internet. I'm gone from uk.music.folk George. I have
no intention of playing along with your Janet jihad here, or in any other
newsgroups.
I've said all I have to say in this thread, and to the uk.music.folk
posters like yourself who only post to rec.music.folk when you have an ax
to grind with American posters. I harbor no ill intentions toward any of
you. But I do suggest you stay the hell out of my face.
Janet Ryan
george...@my-deja.com
ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:
> george...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > The sad fact is that there is a strong antipathy between Janet and
Folk
> > Roots which seems to be colouring Janet's contributions here.
>
> You know George, the sad fact is there is a level of childishness and
> vindictiveness
Janet, others must judge us according to our postings. And are free to
pop over to uk.m.f. to see the 'alert' about you which appeared there
(it's a thread called "nastiness"), or do a dejaNews seach to find how
harshly we've treated you.
Do note, by the way, that I said antipathy BETWEEN you and Folk Roots,
without laying blame on either side. However, for the record, here is
Ian Anderson's lead article of that thread:
IA> The Janet Virus is active again. It may have been disinfected
IA> from this ng, but over on the US singer/songwriter newsgroup
IA> rec.music.folk there is a particular nasty outbreak on a thread
IA> concerning Nic Jones. Some viewers may find items featured to be
IA> offensive.
Certainly not complementary to you or this ng. But (IMO) not unfair in
its indication of what you are up to here. As for the follow ups - apart
from mine, accusing you of a "knee-jerk" reaction to a mention of Folk
Roots, and one defending you, the remainder say "why bother with what's
going on over there". (True at least one of them is also uncomplementary
to you.)
So why did Ian post his "Janet Alert". No idea, you'll have to ask him.
Why did I chose to follow his article up by returning - selectively - to
r.m.f. after a long absence? Because I took Ian's article to suggest
that some muck was being slung over here, in relation to Nic. Which I
find is, indeed, the case. And because I felt someone who knows at least
a little of Nic's situation might contribute some informed opinion to
that debate. Again, it's for others to judge whether I have achieved
anything in that direction.
G.
Jeri Corlew
>george...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> The sad fact is that there is a strong antipathy between Janet and Folk
>> Roots which seems to be colouring Janet's contributions here.
>
>You know George, the sad fact is there is a level of childishness and
>vindictiveness some of you uk.music.folk posters are willing to stoop
>which is utterly amazing to me.
You chose to take a stand against Folk Roots and the Nic Jones article without
ever having read the article. (Ian Anderson is involved, therefore I must
disagree.) That's vindictive. People who have read the article disagree with
you, so you accuse them of being the evil minions of IA. That's vindictive.
>
>I became curious when I read your post--suspicious actually--that
>something was a bit off with this thread, so I duck into uk.music.folk, a
>newsgroup I haven't participated in for awhile now due to unwarranted
>harrassment and near constant personal attacks by a group of
>uk.music.folk posters which includes yourself and Ian Anderson, and what
>do I find?
If he was going to start something, he should have done so here, where you first
attacked IA, Folk Roots, and all of its readers. That was vindictive too.
>
>And now you come into rec.music.folk and attempt to
>start your harrassment campaign here. What's up with all of you
>anyway? How much of a threat can one woman posting in newsgroups be to
>the lot of you?
Argument is not harassment. The initial argument was about Nic Jones' right to
receive credit and compensation for his work. You focused on Folk Roots'
involvement, took exception to someone simply trying to make Nic's musical
contribution known, and labeled people as "disingenuous." Did you expect no one
to take issue with that? What did you expect?
Forget the disability issue, forget Nic Jones can no longer do what he is
skilled at, and forget Folk Roots. Nic got/is getting screwed. Using someone's
arrangements without credit is wrong. Squirreling away the masters of his
previous work in some moldy old closet and refusing to publish music people want
to buy is wrong.
__
Jeri Corlew
(Remove "XXX" to reply)
george...@my-deja.com
Dave Webber <dw...@direct.ca> wrote:
> "You can knock forever on a deaf man's door."
> ---Nikos Kazantzakis, "Zorba the Greek"
>
> To the NG:
> This will probably go down, rightly or wrongly, as the longest post
in this NG's history.
My God!
I take the (unoriginal) view that an advantage of Usenet is that you can
only judge posters by what they write; you meet them without any of the
"baggage" life has attached to them other than what is apparent in their
postings. So from that viewpoint I'm saddened that you've been pushed
into a position of having to spread so much before us to demonstrate
your credibility.
At the same time, I'm humbled, deeply moved and greatly uplifted by so
much of what you wrote; I KNOW this sounds cliched, but thank you for
sharing it with us.
And I reckon a weekend of listening to the magic of Nic Jones' records
is now called for!
With love
George
george...@my-deja.com
ryan...@tc.umn.edu wrote:
I fear my first attempt to answer this - central - point got lost in the
internals of DejaNews, and that "second attempt will be second best"
becase inbetweentimes I've read more of Janet and THAT damages my
objectivity.
> OK--how about we clarify this point here and now.
Yes, that's what I'd like to do. Unfortunately that's hard, 'cause
reality bears little relation to how you are choosing to present things.
> Just what are the writers and editors at Folk Roots advocating for
> Nic Jones for? In what way are they acting as his advocates
This is your unreality, Janet. You're errecting a citadel just so you
can delight in knocking it down. Folk Roots IS NOT advocating for Nic.
It would not be so presumptuous, and would not show that disregard for
the wishes of Nic and his family.
> Its a question I keep asking, and no one seems to be willing to
> answer.
Willingness doesn't come in to it. It can't be answered because the
question simply doesn't relate to reality, in any way.
>
> What are the Folk Roots personnel and the Jones fans advocating?
Reporting isn't necessarily advocacy. But let's step back a second to
this "Folk Roots personnel". Folk Roots ISN'T a mouthpiece for any
particular agenda. What it publishes is very much "the viewpoint of the
contributor rather than the magazine or its editor". OF COURSE the
Editor decides whether any particular piece IS within the scope of the
Mag. But you'd go a long way to find an Editor who is more ready to
publish stuff critical of himself (and his magazine). But the mag.
doesn't (as I understand - I haven't read there "who's who" for a while)
have staff writers. Indeed it has a distinctly small staff. And while it
may commission some articles, much (most?) of what the "editorial
material" it publishes (as distinct from the reviews) either arises out
of informal contacts ("I'm going to <such-and-such> soon, would you be
interested in a piece" - to which the answer is usually "Yes if you can
come up with something interesting") - or else arives unsolicited. The
idea of a FR-led master plan is simply a nonsense.
> Nic Jones can speak for himself. He
> doesn't need Folk Roots or his fans to do that for him.
So once again let's have a little injection of the essential facts. They
are quite simple:
1) Nic Jones was widely considered to be an outstanding performer and
interpreter. He was also extremely well liked. (I imagine he and the
Editor of FR were on friendly terms, not that that's really
significant).
2) He had a very serious car accident, which could easily have cost him
his life.
3) After the accident Nic's family made it clear they wanted to be left
out of the limelight. That wish has been respected (here I can only
speak for the situation in the UK) by the Folk press and individuals who
knew/know Nic and his family.
That's it, really. There has remained widespread interest in Nic's
health/recovery (questions of "does anyone know how Nic is" continue to
surface on uk.m.f. from time to time), and brief statements - meeting
with the approval of the family - have been made. Whatever has
been said about Nic's health has also been reported in Folk Roots
and elsewhere. Despite the interest, there has been refreshingly little
speculation. And I am assured Nic's family are generally happy with
how they have been left to rebuild their lives.
The recent article in Folk Roots was a timely piece of good news. To my
mind it was a really excellent piece of journalism (although clearly
others must judge for themselves). It answered the interest in Nic and
his health, including presenting things as he and his family see it, and
with a sensitive level of interpretation - but without being intrusive
or voyeristic. It also gave a good over-view of his career.
Other matters involving Nic have (with an exception I'll come to)
nothing to do with his injuries/recovery - although given the interest
in his health it is (to my mind) natural that people talking about these
matters also, in passing, mention Nic's accident/health. No advocacy, no
grand plot, just human interest and decency.
The two main issues involving Nic - both fair subject for reportage, IMO
- are Dylan's "lifting" of one of Nic's arrangements. Now Dylan lifted a
hell of a lot from the UK tradition and he may well not have realised
INITIALLY that this was very much Nic Jones' arrangement but . . Let's
not go into that again, or into the parallells with Simon/Carthy
(although some people in these parts who are generally well informed
seem not to realise that Carthy did get a financial settlement out of a
law suit arrising from the Scarborough Fair business) . .
. . and secondly the inability of Nic and his family to secure the
re-release of Nic's recording back catalogue. (And as I've noted
elsewhere, I find "Noah's Ark Trap" and "Devil to a Stranger" more
satisfying recordings than the admittedly very fine "Penguin Eggs".)
Clearly one reason the family were keen on such a re-release was to
bring in some money, to partially make up for the loss of Nic's income
as a performer. And, arguably, Nic's loss of earning capability makes
the attitude of the copyright owner all the more inexcusible. If ever
there were a "special case" for Dave Bulmer bending his own judgement of
his own best financial interests then surely this was it?
> Nic Jones can speak for himself.
Despite your speculation, there is no conflict between Nic, the UK folk
media, and his fans.
> your prejudices are bleeding all over us. Why is Nic's upbeat
> attitude "remarkable"
Sorry, but it's your lack of knowledge of Nic and his situation which is
showing . .
> Why do you presume . .
Possibly because, recognising that Nic is entitled to his own opinions
in these matters, one takes note of what Nic says, or chooses not to
say, rather than give credence to your spurious speculation?
Yes, my irritation is showing. Sorry, folks.
Anyway, I HOPE this is all some help in making it plain that there's no
conspiracy here, and that although there may be a number of issues they
are all ESSENTIALLY straightforward.
G.
Dave Webber
Thank you (and the others who've spoken up) very much for your kind words of
support. They mean more to me than I can say. Re your closing suggestion: I
most heartily concur.
Thanks
Dave
----------
In article <7ke0qa$no3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, george...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <3768C82E...@direct.ca>,
> Dave Webber <dw...@direct.ca> wrote:
>> "You can knock forever on a deaf man's door."
>> ---Nikos Kazantzakis, "Zorba the Greek"
>>
>> To the NG:
>> This will probably go down, rightly or wrongly, as the longest post
> in this NG's history.
> <could be, and I've just snipped it all>
>
> My God!
>
> I take the (unoriginal) view that an advantage of Usenet is that you can
> only judge posters by what they write; you meet them without any of the
> "baggage" life has attached to them other than what is apparent in their
> postings. So from that viewpoint I'm saddened that you've been pushed
> into a position of having to spread so much before us to demonstrate
> your credibility.
>
> At the same time, I'm humbled, deeply moved and greatly uplifted by so
> much of what you wrote; I KNOW this sounds cliched, but thank you for
> sharing it with us.
>
> And I reckon a weekend of listening to the magic of Nic Jones' records
> is now called for!
>
> With love
>
> George
>
>
>>
>
>
Dave Webber
Hi again:
I just want to apologize for my unintentional slighting of Dirty Linen in my
monster post in this thread the other day. Tom Nelligan, who wrote the Folk
Roots article on Spider John that appeared last winter, e-mailed to remind
me that DL also published an article on Spider John, also by Tom, in their
April/May '98 issue (#75). Tom's also reviewed two of Spider John's CDs and
an SJK video in the pages of DL during the past two years. I believe that
Dirty Linen is far and away the finest folk music publication in North
America and, again, I apologize to DL and to Tom for letting my zest for
combat (groan) get in the way of the facts.
Help me make it up to them by running out and buying a copy of the very next
issue! You'll be glad you did.
Dave W.
----------(long snip snip snip)
J. Ryan:
>> I'm sure as shit not suggesting that UK folk music fans should be aware
>> of Spider John Koerner, or his recent health problems. Or because you
>> aren't, that you are somehow a bunch of uncaring, patronizing assholes
>> because you aren't listening to his music...
>
D. Webber:
Jon Plews
Dave Webber wrote in message <3768C82E...@direct.ca>...
>"You can knock forever on a deaf man's door."
>---Nikos Kazantzakis, "Zorba the Greek"
>
>To the NG:
>This will probably go down, rightly or wrongly, as
>the longest post in this NG's history.
Not by a long chalk. It is one of the longest articles I've
read from start to finish though.
[ snip
>Janet Ryan's three posts in the last couple of days, in which
>she launches a vitriolic, insulting, and profoundly ignorant
>attack on me, have made me absolutely livid.
[ snip ]
>This is not going to be pretty.
[ snipped point by point response to Janet M. Ryans post ]
It wiped out my desire to tear a strip of Janet for not
"looking before she leapt" yet again. I think she will
be extremely hurt by what you've written and I have no
desire to add to that.
I'm sorry you have been driven to these rather extreme
lengths, but I found (most of) your post quite uplifting.
Jon Plews.
ryan...@tc.umn.edu
Webber's post.
But before I get to that, I'd like to thank the good folks of
rec.music.folk for being sensitive enough to show dignified restraint in
this thread, and not contributing to this thread. I am asking that
*everyone* continue to show similar restraint in response to this post
of mine, and not reply to this post either.
My sole purpose for posting is to set the record straight on a matter of
great importance that emerged as a result of something Dave posted in his
response to me. I had hoped someone else would bring this matter to the
attention of the newsgroup so it wouldn't be necessary for me to post
again. But sadly, no one has. So as a matter of conscience, I
feel I must. But please--everyone--please know it is most definitely not
my intention to rekindle the flames, and I hope this isn't misinterpreted
as such.
On Thursday last, Dave Webber wrote:
<snip post up to the point just past where Dave Webber gave descriptions
of a number of disabled people he knows, which was followed by the
following from Dave:>
>> I think I've made my point. Granted, these are all exceptional
>>people, but each of them refuses to wear the "inspirational cripple"
>>costume society cuts for them.
I have not, nor will I reproduce the text that was included in Dave's
post that identified a number of disabled people he claims to know.
While he apparently (in one circumstance it's hard to tell) only used
people's first names and initials, he also gave some specific personal
information with which these people might be able to be identified.
Such behavior under any circumstances should NEVER, EVER, EVER be done.
This is such a basic issue of integrity and fairness, not to mention
security and safety for the disabled person, that I had to post and bring
it to the attention of the newsgroup.
I honestly believe Dave acted out of anger and ignorance, and certainly
didn't do it to cause his friends any intentional harm. However, the
fact that he violated the very necessary anonymity and privacy disabled
people need to function in their daily lives had to be brought to the
attention of people who read his post, and have been following this
thread.
I know it will be hard for Dave and his supporters to believe I am not
asking anyone to judge or condemn Dave, especially in light of the way he
responded to my post. I am asking you all to be open minded enough to
accept what I'm saying here at face value--to anyone who reads
this--please, please NEVER publicly identify a disabled person like this
under any circumstances. It is so very wrong, and it can have
devastating consequences for the disabled person.
If you have questions about it, don't just take my word for it, but go to
one of the sites I listed in my "Artists with disabilities" post, and ask
about these matters of privacy and anonymity for disabled people,
especially on-line.
I consulted with a number of knowledgeable people from the disabled
community about this before I decided to post again to the thread.
Without exception, all of them recommended I raise this specific issue to
inform people in the newsgroup, and who might read this message in an
archive--particularly in light of the misinformation about disabled
people that has appeared in the Nic Jones threads.
Please don't think its ever acceptable to use a real complete name, a
real first name and initial of the last name, or just initials when
speaking about a specific individual. When combined with the kind of
information Dave gave, the potential exists for the individual to be
identified by people who have less than good intentions towards the
disabled person--which can include health and social service providers,
employers who may not be aware of the person's disability (people get
fired for being disabled all the time), people's residences or places of
employment can be ascertained, leaving them open to victimization and
harrassment--all kinds of negative consequences can result from a person
being identified publicly in this way.
Not knowing if Dave actually reads this newsgroup regularly or not, I
have sent him this post via private mail as well. And I'd like to
suggest to you Dave that you get in contact with the archive databases at
places like DejaNews, and ask them to remove your post identifying your
friends from their archives.
Respectfully,
Janet Ryan