Delurk, and Tunes for Filk Songs?
nyma...@netway.com
and a friend to some of the regulars here *wave*.
When I was a teenager my Great Pretentious Dream was to be a fantasy
novelist and poet, and my great love was singing, chorally and in the
Baptist church I was raised in, so every so often I'd self-pollinate and
write a hymn. I'm not Baptist anymore, but I still do like to sing that
kind of music, among others; many of my favorites, like Echo's Children's
"Outward Bound" and "The Mary Ellen Carter", are musically in that genre
but not on the usual topic.
In college I stopped writing poetry and stopped having the time to sing
chorally, so since I've gotten into filk, I've welcomed the chance to sing
and also to write again. (The only song I've written so far that is at all
not wretched is "Been There, Done That [The Perils of Cons]" after last
year's Arisia, but I hope to write a few more before I'm done.)
The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs that probably
don't need any more parodies, at least not from me. I was thinking about
this recently, because I have a couple ideas, including a love song, so, I
thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
as most hymn tunes would.
Ny
PS I'd've just asked this tomorrow at the next meeting, but I won't be
able to be there. Besides, it seemed a good subject for my debut post.
Robert B. Cooke
>Hi! My name is Ny Martin, and I'm a member of MASSFILC and the OKChorale,
>and a friend to some of the regulars here *wave*.
Hi, Ny!
<snip>
> I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
>and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs that probably
>don't need any more parodies, at least not from me. I was thinking about
>this recently, because I have a couple ideas, including a love song, so, I
>thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
>advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
>as most hymn tunes would.
There have been several discussions on this newsgroup about the
interchangability of tunes (what can be sung to "Gilligan's Island",
etc.). If you are writing poetry with a rhythmic structure that
matches one tune, chances are that it will match a large number of
other tunes.
Even if you don't personally compose tunes, one or more people in the
MASSFILC group will probably begin singing your poem to *some* tune
about as soon as you hand it to them.
Another option is learning to develop your own tunes. I'm personally
of the opinion that almost any prose can be sung in an emotionally
effective manner, whether or not it has an intended rhythmic
structure. My music background is also vocal (as opposed to instrument
training). One of the best ways I've found to develop a tune is just
to pick a random note and begin to sing (vocalese) the words. As I
play with the notes, an effective tune often develops itself.
Hope some of this is useful. Welcome to the group!
Robert
--
Robert B. Cooke
Cordele, Georgia
robert underscore b underscore cooke at mindspring dot com
Lee Gold
>
> nyma...@netway.com wrote:
>
> > I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
> >thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
>
> interchangability of tunes
I don't know about Ny, but my tunes are alien to standard Western
music rules, and Barry insists on modifying the few I've asked
him to learn because he can't sing them on tune.
Ny seems to be asking for a source of easily learned tunes that
aren't hymns or filksongs. I'd suggest
advertising jingles
campfire songs and children's songs
Many of us also used folksongs (both old ones and ones from the
60s folk revival), carols, and songs from well-known musicals.
Many of us may not be familiar with various hymns and so not
think of the melody as hymnal.
Also do feel free to vary a melody's pacing and rhythm.
"Lalaga" sounds very beautiful -- and different -- slowed down.
"Wabash Cannonball" sounds quite different when done slowly
and less marcado (less pronounced stress). Further examples
at Arisia, I hope. Looking forward to meeting you, Ny, as I
also typically write songs to other people's melodies.
--Lee
Robert B. Cooke
>"Robert B. Cooke" wrote:
>>
>> nyma...@netway.com wrote:
>>
>> > I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
>> >and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs... I
>> >thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
>>
>> There have been several discussions on this newsgroup about the
>> interchangability of tunes
>> Another option is learning to develop your own tunes.
>
>I don't know about Ny, but my tunes are alien to standard Western
>music rules, and Barry insists on modifying the few I've asked
>him to learn because he can't sing them on tune.
Umm... A definite point. I hadn't thought of that. My choral
background means that usually I follow standard Western music rules,
even in vocalese.
>Ny seems to be asking for a source of easily learned tunes that
>aren't hymns or filksongs. I'd suggest
> advertising jingles
Easily learned and well known. I have a knee-jerk reaction against it,
but that's my problem. (g) I hope to be able to hear some examples at
one of the cons to change my mind.
> campfire songs and children's songs
>Many of us also used folksongs (both old ones and ones from the
>60s folk revival), carols, and songs from well-known musicals.
>Many of us may not be familiar with various hymns and so not
>think of the melody as hymnal.
A number of celtic tunes are available on-line in ABC format, and I've
had fun playing with those.
>
>Also do feel free to vary a melody's pacing and rhythm.
>"Lalaga" sounds very beautiful -- and different -- slowed down.
>"Wabash Cannonball" sounds quite different when done slowly
>and less marcado (less pronounced stress). Further examples
>at Arisia, I hope. Looking forward to meeting you, Ny, as I
>also typically write songs to other people's melodies.
>
>--Lee
--
Robert B. Cooke
Cordele, Georgia
robert underscore b underscore cooke at mindspring dot com
"Cordele comes from Cordelia, but personally, I think of it
as meaning 'Heart of the song'"
Iolanthe
nyma...@netway.com wrote:
> Hi! My name is Ny Martin, and I'm a member of MASSFILC and the
OKChorale,
> and a friend to some of the regulars here *wave*.
Hello! Nice to meet you. :-)
As for your question, I get most of my filk tunes from Gilbert and
Sullivan musicals -- you can find plenty of midi versions of the songs
at this fantastic site:
http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/
(I even sequenced a few of them. :-) )
And if you write stuff in ballad meter, it can go to any number of
tunes.
--
"You are old, Father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head --
Do you think at your age it is right?"
"In my youth," Father William replied to his son,
"I feared it would injure the brain;
But now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again!"
-- Alice's Adventures in Wonderland
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Terence Chua
> The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
> talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
> ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
> and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs that probably
> don't need any more parodies, at least not from me. I was thinking about
> this recently, because I have a couple ideas, including a love song, so, I
> thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
> advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
> as most hymn tunes would.
I'm a relatively young 'un as filkers go - having only started seriously
filking over the last year plus. However, for what it's worth, I started
with simple parodies - taking familiar pop tunes and just putting new
lyrics to them.
To progress into your own tunes, what you can try is taking traditional
folk tunes - old folk songs often recycle tunes. "The Irish
Washerwoman", or "Turkey In The Straw". Right now I'm trying to think of
a Lensman song to the tune of, or a reasonable facsimile of "Hearts of
Oak". I'm unabashed to say that some of my original tunes are actually
take-offs or variations on already established songs - often taking a
couple of bars, and then twirling it off in another direction.
Eventually, you'll start winding up with tunes of your own.
----------
Terence Chua kh...@tim.org
WWW: http://www.khaosworks.org
KhaOS@TinyTIM: telnet://yay.tim.org:5440
"Love ain't a dying art as far as I can see..."
Mark A. Mandel
: Also do feel free to vary a melody's pacing and rhythm.
: "Lalaga" sounds very beautiful -- and different -- slowed down.
"Lalage"? Leslie's setting of Kipling's poem, which requires
mispronouncing the name? (K does, so L has to. Doesn't affect the effect
of the poem and the song, though, except a bit for pedants like me.)
: "Wabash Cannonball" sounds quite different when done slowly
: and less marcado (less pronounced stress). Further examples
marcato
*
: at Arisia, I hope. Looking forward to meeting you, Ny, as I
: also typically write songs to other people's melodies.
Yes, and you'll like her! And, Ny, you'll like Lee.
-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
Philological Busybody
a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
--
To reply by email, remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.
Mark A. Mandel
:> The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
:> talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
:> ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
[...]
: Eventually, you'll start winding up with tunes of your own.
But even if you don't, no one will mind. And you'll be no less a filker
for it.
-- Mark
Lee Gold
>
> Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> : "Lalaga" sounds very beautiful -- and different -- slowed down.
> "Lalage"?
Oops, I typoed it. Sorry.
>
> : and less marcado (less pronounced stress).
> marcato
Ditto.
--Lee
Patrick Connors
: The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
: talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
: ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
: don't need any more parodies, at least not from me. I was thinking about
: this recently, because I have a couple ideas, including a love song, so, I
: thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
: advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
: as most hymn tunes would.
My advice is to write what you write, pass it along to your musician
friends and let them play with it. Magic will happen. And if you hear
your words set to music that doesn't work, say so.
I write my own tunes, but I take the songs to the group that will perform
them and we re-arrange so it works for the group. Usually this improves
the tune.
--
Patrick Connors |
| Smile! The fresh air's good for your teeth.
| -- Jack Bogut, KDKA Radio, 1970s
|
Jacob Sommer
>
> Hi! My name is Ny Martin, and I'm a member of MASSFILC and the OKChorale,
> and a friend to some of the regulars here *wave*.
Hy Ny! <wave>
> The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
> talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
> ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
> and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs that probably
> don't need any more parodies, at least not from me.
Hey, we don't write parodies because of *need*, we do it cuz it's
*fun*. Don't limit yourself.
> I was thinking about
> this recently, because I have a couple ideas, including a love song, so, I
> thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
> advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
> as most hymn tunes would.
>
> Ny
> PS I'd've just asked this tomorrow at the next meeting, but I won't be
> able to be there. Besides, it seemed a good subject for my debut post.
Write the words. The music will come.
Sometimes I write with a tune in my head before I put pen to paper (or
fingers to keyboard as the case usually is). More often I write the
words and try to keep the rhythm when writing them and let the melody
come. Sometimes they co-generate (like with "Silver and Gold") but
that is a pretty rare thing. Usually makes for a strong song though
when I'm writing an original. Parodies/recycled melodies are usually
pretty easy for me.
Jacob
nyma...@netway.com
: : also typically write songs to other people's melodies.
I'll be at Arisia no matter what. And I'm very much looking forward to the
filking.
: Yes, and you'll like her! And, Ny, you'll like Lee.
*blush* *smile* Thanks, Mark. :)
Ny
________________________
Nyani-Iisha (Ny) Martin
May you live in internetting times.
-Modern Chinese curse
nyma...@netway.com
nyma...@netway.com
I will gladly accept: what kind of cookies do people like?) I wanted to
reply to the thread as a whole, so I figured I'd pick a couple of posts to
reply to. Jacob shouldn't feel _too_ special that I picked his *big grin
and wink at Jacob*
Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote:
: nyma...@netway.com wrote:
:> Hi! My name is Ny Martin, and I'm a member of MASSFILC and the OKChorale,
:> and a friend to some of the regulars here *wave*.
: Hy Ny! <wave>
*smile*
:> I was thinking about
:> this recently, because I have a couple ideas....so
:> thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
:> advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
:> as most hymn tunes would.
: Write the words. The music will come.
I decided to do just this, but it reminds me of another thing I wanted to
mention.
One of the reasons I like structuring a song around its tune is that it
helps me keep the meter under control. Last time I was writing poetry I
was in high school and so was able to integrate my poetry writing into my
literature classes; now, it's several years later, and I've probably
forgotten most of what I knew about structure and meter, as well as given
away all my textbooks. So, do people have any suggestions, etc on this
subject? *big smile*
Thanks, everybody. I'm going to like it here.
nyma...@netway.com
I will gladly accept: what kind of cookies do people like?) I wanted to
reply to the thread as a whole, so I figured I'd pick a couple of posts to
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
1) Figure out what sort of tune would suit the song you're trying to
write, use that to guide your search.
2) Write the lyrics as poetry, then go hunting for a tune that fits
them.
3) Or write them to one tune while you're working on them, then find
another one that you can swap in for the final version. ("Stairway to
Gilligan's Island", anyone?)
> The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
> talent of mine
I'd have said the same until recently. Then I realized that harmonizing
counts as writing a tune (especially if it's more complicated than a
simple parallel or drone harmony). So:
4) You can take existing chord changes, improv a countermelody over
them, drop the original melody, then polish until it stands on its own
again... and you've written a song.
I can't do it on demand yet. But I can't write lyrics on demand yet
either. Practice is slowly improving both.
> advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
> as most hymn tunes would.
I dunno. Thinking about what Pete Seeger has done with hymn tunes and
similar -- his lyrics for Old Hundred and the Ode to Joy come to mind
immediately -- I suspect that simply changing tempo and arrangement on
some hymns might change their character completely. Don't forget, many
hymns swiped their melodies from other sources; there's nothing wrong
with returning the complement... unless you think someone who doesn't
understand that concept is going to be offended; in which case
approaches (3) and (4) may be useful.
--
------------------------------------------------------
Joe Kesselman, http://www.lovesong.com/people/keshlam/
Opinions expressed are solely those of the author
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> One of the reasons I like structuring a song around its tune is that it
> helps me keep the meter under control.
Reciting the lyrics to yourself, or singing them to a temporary tune,
might help.
If you remember _any_ of your poetic training, you're one up on most of
us. Whether you remember what to call it is less important than whether
you can do it.
"Trust your instincts. Let go." And then come back and fix it if you
think you let yourself go too far. Brainstorm first, then refine if
needed.
(Personally, I tend to think of meter as rhythm. But I'm partly
corrupted by the percussive side of the farce.)
mer...@hotmail.com
> I was just looking at a couple of Chad Mitchel Trio collections that
> I have.
I love the Chad Mitchell Trio (I actually even have a mini webpage
about them on my site at
www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Glade/6691/chad.html
'cause they were one of my formative influences.
I've heard more filks of Banks of Sicely than of anything else, and
I've certainly never heard a filk of Alberta, or James James Morrison
Morrison (for whom my little guitar is named) but I'd love to hear one
if they exist.
:)
Merav
who's probably going to dig out her copies of Reflecting and At the
Bitter End at some point soon
Jacob Sommer
>
> Thanks for all the suggestions and advice, and offers of help! (Which last
> I will gladly accept: what kind of cookies do people like?) I wanted to
> reply to the thread as a whole, so I figured I'd pick a couple of posts to
> base my replies on. Jacob shouldn't feel _too_ special that I picked his
> *big grin and wink at Jacob*
Okie :)
> Jacob Sommer <len...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> : nyma...@netway.com wrote:
> :> I was thinking about
> :> this recently, because I have a couple ideas....so
> :> thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
> :> advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
> :> as most hymn tunes would.
> : Write the words. The music will come.
>
> I decided to do just this, but it reminds me of another thing I wanted to
> mention.
>
> One of the reasons I like structuring a song around its tune is that it
> helps me keep the meter under control. Last time I was writing poetry I
> was in high school and so was able to integrate my poetry writing into my
> literature classes; now, it's several years later, and I've probably
> forgotten most of what I knew about structure and meter, as well as given
> away all my textbooks. So, do people have any suggestions, etc on this
> subject? *big smile*
Well, what little I recall of poetry styles is that they tended to be
very highly formalized in content, such as which lines rhyme with which
and how many syllables per line. They're good for structure but they
don't really have anything formal for flow. If you want to stick to a
more formal poetic structure that's fine, but remember the flow of the
words.
When I'm writing I work on the flow and the structure and am sometimes
willing to sneak in extra syllables if they'll fit or fudge a teeny bit
on the rhymes. In some ways I'm pretty formal in my style and it
probably shows.
> Thanks, everybody. I'm going to like it here.
<g>
BTW, chocolate chocolate chip cookies OR chocolate brownies with a
cheesecake top and mebbe some nicely melty chocolate chips inside -
those are my favorite cookies. Except for the one that'd let me get
onto any pay website free of charge ;-)
Jacob
Lee Gold
> I've certainly never heard a filk of Alberta, or James James Morrison
> Morrison (for whom my little guitar is named) but I'd love to hear one
> if they exist.
Someday I'd love to try having some filkers sing "Young Man Mulligan"
(no, not all of it) in the harmonies the Chad Mitchell Trio worked
out for the Great Historical Bum/Liar's Song (on which YMM is based).
--Lee Gold
Marie Martinek
>The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
>talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
>ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
>and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs that probably
>don't need any more parodies, at least not from me.
If it's not written as a "parody", go ahead and use hymns. (It's then
called a "pastiche", or maybe even a "hommage")
We may not even recognize the hymn tune. "Wow! You write great
melodies...!"
Try listening to Kathy Mar's "Drink Up the River", and then Cat
Faber's "Acts of Creation". Took me quite a while to realize Cat had
abducted Kathy's tune, since she did just enough twiddling with the
cadence, and put such a marvelous bunch of words to it.
--
Marie Martinek
Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA
mv-ma...@northwestern.edu
Bill Gawne
>
> In article <G3M6J...@world.std.com>, pci...@antiabuseworld.std.com
> (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
> > Hmmm. For a song about a band of brave, incorruptable heros, might I
> > suggest "Men of Harlech"?
>
> I'd consider it if I knew what Men of Harlech sounded like... :-)
If you want to hear it, one sure way would be to rent the video _Zulu!_
and listen to the Welsh Engineers sing it to the Zulus near the end of
the film. Given the cost of music cassettes and CD's, that might be the
cheapest way too, unless you have a friend with a sound file of it.
-Bill Gawne
Heather Rose Jones
>
> nyma...@netway.com wrote:
> : The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
> : talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
> : ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
> : and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs that probably
> : this recently, because I have a couple ideas, including a love song, so, I
> : thought I would ask people if they had any good ideas, suggestions,
> : advice, etc, especially ones that won't sound as out of place on the topic
> : as most hymn tunes would.
>
> friends and let them play with it. Magic will happen.
This is something like what I was thinking of suggesting to you. That
is, continue writing your lyrics to some tune you're familiar with, but
then hand them off to someone who writes music (and who writes music
that you like) and _don't_tell_them_what_tune_you_used_.
I've often written lyrics to a "scratch tune", just to provide some
consistency in flow and emphasis between verses, and then written the
"real tune" later. (This can backfire, mind you. "Welsh History 101B"
was not _supposed_ to be sung to the tune of "The Ash Grove". That was
only the scratch tune. But I needed to debut it earlier than expected
and hadn't worked up a real tune yet and ... well, it stuck.)
--
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
*********
Terence Chua
> In article <khaos-369FF9....@news.newsguy.com>,
> Terence Chua <kh...@tim.org> wrote:
> >
> >Washerwoman", or "Turkey In The Straw". Right now I'm trying to think of
> >a Lensman song to the tune of, or a reasonable facsimile of "Hearts of
> >Oak". I'm unabashed to say that some of my original tunes are actually
>
> Hmmm. For a song about a band of brave, incorruptable heros, might I
> suggest "Men of Harlech"?
I'd consider it if I knew what Men of Harlech sounded like... :-)
----------
Rafe Culpin
> I've heard more filks of Banks of Sicely than of anything else, and
> I've certainly never heard a filk of Alberta, or James James Morrison
> Morrison (for whom my little guitar is named) but I'd love to hear one
> if they exist.
You mean there's a song of JJMM? I've seen a Les Barker filk of the poem.
(I can't dig it out at the moment - he's now up to 62 books!)
Rafe
--
To reply email rafe, at the address filk co uk
The WiGGLe Website for information on filk in the UK is at:
http://www.filk.co.uk/
Lee Gold
>
> In article <8u78tf$g7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, mer...@hotmail.com () wrote:
>
> > I've heard more filks of Banks of Sicely than of anything else, and
> > I've certainly never heard a filk of Alberta, or James James Morrison
> > Morrison (for whom my little guitar is named) but I'd love to hear one
> > if they exist.
>
> You mean there's a song of JJMM?
It's on AT THE BITTER END, now on CD.
--Lee
Mark A. Mandel
: In article <G3M6J...@world.std.com>, pci...@antiabuseworld.std.com
: (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
:> Hmmm. For a song about a band of brave, incorruptable heros, might I
:> suggest "Men of Harlech"?
: I'd consider it if I knew what Men of Harlech sounded like... :-)
The tune is better known in fandom as "Woad" (anon., early 20th cent.) or
"Code" (Kanefsky). The lyrics in rather stiff English translation should
be available on the Web. Reading or hearing it in Welsh should be
interesting but, if you've never heard the song and therefore presumably
don't know Welsh, uninformative, except for hearing the tune.
Plorkwort
>Terence Chua <kh...@tim.org> wrote:
>: In article <G3M6J...@world.std.com>, pci...@antiabuseworld.std.com
>: (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
>:> Hmmm. For a song about a band of brave, incorruptable heros, might I
>:> suggest "Men of Harlech"?
>
>: I'd consider it if I knew what Men of Harlech sounded like... :-)
from the mudcat: http://media.mudcat.org/midi/HARLCH.mid
sheet music:
http://www.numachi.com/cgi-bin/rickheit/dtrad/lookup?ti=HARLCH&tt=HARLCH
Plorkwort
--
Valentine: Is there anything in it? That we are all doomed? Oh, yes, it's
called the second law of thermodynamics. Hannah: Was it known about?
Valentine: By poets and lunatics from time immemorial.
--Tom Stoppard, _Arcadia_
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
Migawd. I'd forgotten that completely. I'm afraid to try to recall how
young I was when I first heard it...
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Try listening to Kathy Mar's "Drink Up the River", and then Cat
> Faber's "Acts of Creation". Took me quite a while to realize Cat had
> abducted Kathy's tune
And when I sing the early part of the verse for Cat's _Word_of_God_, I
keep slipping into _Hope_Eyrie_... so I've wondered if (part of?) the
tune for the former might have originated as a harmony for the latter.
(I haven't checked how far the parallels run... but this suggests that a
Really Interesting medly transition between the two might be possible.)
Lee Gold
>
> I've often written lyrics to a "scratch tune", just to provide some
> consistency in flow and emphasis between verses, and then written the
> "real tune" later.
I'd love to know the scratch tunes for your lyrics since Barry
hasn't been able to master your chosen tunes for some of them.
Is there a scratch tune for the one about hunting cancer like
wolves?
I often write one verse and then decide on what (known) tune
it wants to be to. It's worth mentioning that even if you
can sing a given verse to many different tunes, each tune
has its own caesura (brief pause in midline) and other
eccentricities so that a verse will sound better sung to
one tune than to another even if it scans to all of them.
And in spite of all the people explaining how easy it is to
write tunes or have other people write them for you,
that it is perfectly proper by filkish standards to reuse
other people's tunes, that it is in fact easier for
people reading your lyrics in a songbook to sing it if you've
reused a tune than if the reader has to master sheet music.
And that reusing a tune without reference to the original
lyrics isn't usually called "parody," either by lawyers or
by filkers.
--Lee Gold
Margaret Middleton
>hymns swiped their melodies from other sources;
Many of them probably just as non-respectable as "To Anacreon in Heaven", the
drinking song which Francis Scott Key used to base "The Star Spangled Banner"
on.
BTW: Rudyard Kipling used hymn tunes as structural guides for much of HIS
poetry-writing, which is a lot of why it is so easy for us a century later to
set them to fresh music (if we can't deduce the originals)
MSMinLR(at)aol.com (Margaret Middleton)
Shameless Plug for our local con: http://www.rockon.org
Help make a Quilted Artifact to sell for Interfilk:
http://members.aol.com/msminlr/ifquilt.htm
Heather Rose Jones
>
> Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> >
> > I've often written lyrics to a "scratch tune", just to provide some
> > consistency in flow and emphasis between verses, and then written the
> > "real tune" later.
>
> I'd love to know the scratch tunes for your lyrics since Barry
> hasn't been able to master your chosen tunes for some of them.
> Is there a scratch tune for the one about hunting cancer like
> wolves?
I don't think so on that one -- the scratch tune tends to disappear from
my consciousness once I've got an original worked out. It would be hard
to recall any specifically.
I've always suspected that "Wolves" really wants to have some
quarter-tones in places, but I always manage to bully them into being
regular notes. But the tune is a _lot_ more syncopated and free-form
than what's published in "Songbook Pusher" -- I tend to publish fairly
stripped-down versions of my rhythms to save my sanity.
Mark A. Mandel
: In article <3A082F32...@alum.mit.edu>, "Joe Kesselman (yclept
:> And when I sing the early part of the verse for Cat's _Word_of_God_, I
:> keep slipping into _Hope_Eyrie_... so I've wondered if (part of?) the
:> tune for the former might have originated as a harmony for the latter.
: I once mentioned the similarity to Cat, and she said that she used Hope
: Eyrie as a starting point for creating her own tune. I've done the same
: sort of thing. I wrote a setting of Berton Braley's "The Thinker" and
: later (but before performing) realized that I had swiped Jordin's
: "Pioneer's Song" almost note for note. I just started tweaking the tune
: till it was unrecognizable. Likewise, "Shrink Wrap Blues" started out
: sounding quite a bit like "16 Tons."
And I've done similar things. Probably most of us who write some of (what
we THINK is) our own music have done so.
I used to have a small collection of verses of songs that would slip into
each other and back again. Maybe I'll try to reconstruct it, just for
weirdness' sake.
-- Mark A. Mandel
The third millennium (Gregorian) will begin at 12:00 a.m., 1 January 2001.
Please be patient.
Chris Croughton
<msm...@aol.comstatic> wrote:
>>Don't forget, many
>>hymns swiped their melodies from other sources;
>
>Many of them probably just as non-respectable as "To Anacreon in Heaven", the
>drinking song which Francis Scott Key used to base "The Star Spangled Banner"
>on.
It happened both ways, a lot of songs which we now know as secular
started off as church melodies and acquired profane[1] words.
[1] Which meant simply "non-religious", but over time became used like
'irreligious' to mean obscene or blasphemous. I love how languages
changes...
>BTW: Rudyard Kipling used hymn tunes as structural guides for much of HIS
>poetry-writing, which is a lot of why it is so easy for us a century later to
>set them to fresh music (if we can't deduce the originals)
One of fairly few poets whose work can almost all either be read as
poetry or set easily to music. This may be one reason he is generally
highly regarded among filkers.
Chris C
Martin GK
Middleton) wrote:
>>Don't forget, many
>>hymns swiped their melodies from other sources;
>
>Many of them probably just as non-respectable as "To Anacreon in Heaven", the
>drinking song which Francis Scott Key used to base "The Star Spangled Banner"
>on.
"What a friend we have in Jesus" (supposedly respectable hymn now, as
compared to, for example, most of the stuff I play in church) was
originally the drinking song "What a friend I have in mother", popular
at the time. The same guy (whose name escapes me, but shouldn't) made
quite a habit of doing that sort of thing - he has also worked out
that people sing better to tunes they know. If you want people to sing
along from the word go, in either filk circles or church, it is better
to pick a familiar tune.
What *I* really need, though, is someone to teach me how to write
lyrics. Tunes I can do...the latest opus (this year's song) was
supposed to be going in the ConThirteena song book, copy date about a
week ago, and its still stuck there with lines missing from the second
and third verses. Any one read Peter Hamilton's "Mindstar Rising" and
want to co-write?
Cheers
Martin GK
--
Starsky's Hutch - the home of Martin and Andy Gordon-Kerr
http://www.starsky.demon.co.uk
There's a great deal of satisfaction in a job well done.
The problem is living until that point...E Neely
Eloise Beltz-Decker
> In article <3a04...@news.mdc.net>, nyma...@netway.com wrote:
>
> >The problem is, I don't write tunes. Never have. I think it's just not a
> >talent of mine, and after years of worrying over it I think it's probably
> >ok. I write songs around the structure of their intended tunes, though,
> >and most of the tunes I know well are hymns or filk songs that probably
> >don't need any more parodies, at least not from me.
>
> called a "pastiche", or maybe even a "hommage")
>
> We may not even recognize the hymn tune. "Wow! You write great
> melodies...!"
>
> Faber's "Acts of Creation". Took me quite a while to realize Cat had
> cadence, and put such a marvelous bunch of words to it.
And I can't sing either of them straight without thinking hard
first anymore, because my dang guitar class taught me 'The Gambler' by
Kenny Rogers, and guess who Kathy lifted her tune from? :->
--
Eloise Beltz-Decker elo...@ripco.com
http://pages.ripco.com/~eloise/
I'm depressive by nature, but a Pollyanna by choice.
Michelle & Boyd Bottorff
>
> What *I* really need, though, is someone to teach me how to write
> lyrics. Tunes I can do...the latest opus (this year's song) was
> supposed to be going in the ConThirteena song book, copy date about a
> week ago, and its still stuck there with lines missing from the second
> and third verses. Any one read Peter Hamilton's "Mindstar Rising" and
> want to co-write?
This actually sounds like a fun topic to start a thread on.
One thing that I've noticed that I think is worth mentioning, is that
you shouldn't get too attached to the lines you already have.
A lot of people seem to get stuck because they have one line that they
like, but they can't find a rhyme to match for the next line down. And
they sit there saying, "what rhymes with x?"
If you're stuck on line two, you should start fiddling around with line
one. There is never only one good way to say something. Rephrasing the
fist line often makes he second line much easier. :)
Anyone else with lyric writing tips?
Michelle Bottorff
Lady Lavender
--
Family webpage: http://home.sprintmail.com/~mbottorff/index.html
Lady Lavender's Filksongs: http://www.freemars.org/lavender/index.html
25r:2a:1p
Maureen O'Brien
even have to buy albums. Go thou to the library and check out a buncha
CDs or whatever. Pick out stuff you like and stuff you haven't heard of
before, and pick their bones ruthlessly. Traditional/Childe Ballad
music is particularly good for this. If you don't like it or can't use
it, you haven't spent anything but time and you've learned a little
more about music.
OTOH, if you want to learn to write tunes, I highly recommend humming
and whistling while purposefully changing the tune around. Mowing the
grass and other repetitive kinds of work are also bound to elicit music
out of sheer boredom and the droning beat. In fact, they usually elicit
verses too.
Maureen
Terence Chua
> Anyone else with lyric writing tips?
Get a good rhyming dictionary. Or if you're desperate, go on-line for
them. I usually use http://www.rhymezone.com/ if I have to. I try not
to, because it makes me too dependent on rhyming dictionaries when
really, I should be able to compose in my head - particularly if
inspiration strikes when I'm away from a net connection.
Another thing I can suggest is read old poetry (not the modern,
non-rhyming type), and/or get a good sense of meter. You can do a lot of
"cheating" with grace notes and similar "empty" sounds that will allow
you to fit more syllables in than usual.
The only other tip I can think of at present is also to expand your
vocabulary as much as possible.
nyma...@netway.com
music. So, I wrote this. It's not the poem I mentioned wanting to write;
that one's going to take me awhile. This one just kind of popped out the
other day.
I don't honestly know if it's any good; I might have lost the
poetry-writing knack for good. But, assuming this baby is worth keeping...
first of all, my scansion has always been bad, so please whap it for me.
Second of all, are there any tunes I can sing this to? If it comes out to
2 verses instead of 4, well, the better to not take up too long in the
circle. Third, what on Earth should I call it? (^:
Standing at dawn in Sun's chariot,
Spanning the world in a look,
Phaethon, luckless charioteer,
Did you know the risk you took?
I stand here, facing a new chance,
A sudden upswing to my fate,
Struggling to hold my heart's horses,
Fighting to make myself wait.
Like you, swept away by the glory,
I feel the reins dragged from my hand,
Surrender myself to the flying,
Giving no thought to land.
I think you loved the ride, Phaethon,
Though it cost you your all;
I trust my leap will be worth it,
Even facing the fall.
-Ny Martin
Dave Weingart
>A lot of people seem to get stuck because they have one line that they
>like, but they can't find a rhyme to match for the next line down. And
>they sit there saying, "what rhymes with x?"
Buy a rhyming dictionary. A *good* rhyming dictionary.
--
73 de Dave Weingart KA2ESK Consonance 2001! Urban Tapestry!
mailto:phyd...@liii.com Mike Stein! Oh, yeah, and some guy
http://www.liii.com/~phydeaux named Dave Wein-something-or-other.
ICQ 57055207 http://www.consonance.org
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
(and having writ, asked for comments)
> first of all, my scansion has always been bad, so please whap it for me.
Point of information: What's the proper accent/pronunciation of
"Phaethon"?
There are a few places where accent and syllable count differs from one
verse to the next, at least as I read it aloud and try to think of a
tune to fit to it. But whether that's a problem or not will depend
partly on what melody get's used.
Playing percussionist... I'm reading the rhythm of the first verse as
something like
DUM-dum-dum DUM-dum-dum DUM, dum dum
DUM-dum-dum DUM-dum-dum DUM
DUM-dum-dum DUM-dum DUM-dum-dum dum
DUM-dum-dum dum dum DUM-dum-dum
(some of theose being rests)... but it does vary. I like the galloping
feel of it, given the subject matter.
(If you don't have a tune yet, this sort of abstract view of the rhythm
can be a good way to check whether your scansion is consistant.)
> Second of all, are there any tunes I can sing this to?
Haven't found one yet, but it definitely feels like there ought to be. I
can almost hear a tune. Something with a heroic feel to it would be
approprite, considering the theme and mood...
Maureen O'Brien
>I don't honestly know if it's any good; I might have lost the
>poetry-writing knack for good. But, assuming this baby is worth >keeping...
<raises book>
BACK! Back, you demon of Self Doubt!
<splats Ny's demon like a cockroach, which is rather messy>
<turns to Ny>
Now that that's out of the way....
Good Lord, Ny, if you can write like this and not be sure it's any
good, I'd hate to see you on your good days!
Yes, it's good. Yes, it's worth keeping. And yes, it's so easy to set
to a tune that I couldn't avoid doing it long enough to get to the
third line! (Nice tune, too, I think.)
I'm sure everyone else is going to tell you the same thing.
Resistance is useless. You are good, Ny.
>first of all, my scansion has always been bad, so please whap it for
>me.
Heh. That's the real reason to write the tune yourself -- that way,
you can leave room for the extra syllables/grace notes. Either that,
or claim that's how you pronounce it in your dialect. <g>
Maureen
Heather Rose Jones
>
> One day in Teletubbyland, mbot...@sprintmail.com (Michelle & Boyd Bottorff) said:
> >A lot of people seem to get stuck because they have one line that they
> >like, but they can't find a rhyme to match for the next line down. And
> >they sit there saying, "what rhymes with x?"
>
> Buy a rhyming dictionary. A *good* rhyming dictionary.
I do a lot of rhymed verse and I have never used a rhyming dictionary to
write it. (I own one, but only because it has a nice introduction
explaining a wide variety of strict-form verse types.)
My rule of thumb, which makes this work, is to stick to rhyme-words with
as few syllables as possible. In my experience, the more syllables your
rhymed word has, the more it sticks out. If it's meant to be simply a
structural element in your verse, this is a Bad Thing. For me,
polysyllabic rhyming is always inherently funny. (Diana Gallagher wrote
some lyrics that I found rather inappropriately hilarious, because of
her tendency to use polysyllabic rhymes.) Rhymes that use multiple
words to match a polysyllabic rhyme are even more inherently funny.
Mind you, if you want to write comic verse, you should take all the
rules of thumb in this post and turn them on their heads.
Now, if you start with a rule of thumb that your rhymed words should be
as short as possible -- one syllable if at all possible, two permitted
if the second is an unstressed grammatical suffix -- then finding a
rhyming word is simply a matter of running your rhyme through the
alphabet (along with allowed initial consonant clusters).
Take the example of the first phrase of the previous paragraph.
Now: ow, bough, brow, cow, how, prow, plow, row (in the sense of
"fight", if you pronounce it that way), sow (pig), scow, vow, wow, yow.
If: cliff, griff (short for griffon), riff, stiff, tiff, whiff.
You: brew, blue, blew, cue, crew, clue, do, due, dew, drew, few, flew,
hue, hew, ... hmm, this one's going to go on forever.
Short words also tend ("tend" only, not a rule) to have more direct,
concrete meanings, and hence more emotional impact. Short words are
more likely to be long-time members of English vocabulary, and so to
conform more to overall English sound-rules, and so to have more
potential rhymes in the language. Polysyllabic words are more likely to
be borrowed words, and so have a greater likelihood of having
sound-contours that don't follow English patterns, and hence have fewer
potential rhymes.
If you have a really hard time finding a rhyme for an existing line, try
re-wording it to put a different word in the rhyming position (but
_don't_ cripple the syntax to do so), or try substituting a different
word with similar meaning.
Lee Gold
>
> One day in Teletubbyland, mbot...@sprintmail.com (Michelle & Boyd Bottorff) said:
> >A lot of people seem to get stuck because they have one line that they
> >like, but they can't find a rhyme to match for the next line down. And
> >they sit there saying, "what rhymes with x?"
>
> Buy a rhyming dictionary. A *good* rhyming dictionary.
For awhile I worked on an expanded rhyming dictionary that included
phrases and Fanspeak and up to date words.
--Lee
Joe Kesselman (yclept Keshlam)
> Third, what on Earth should I call it? (^:
Were it mine, I'd be tempted to ask Dr. Whom to help me find a classical
translation of "Sieze the Reins", or something of that sort. If in
English, I think I'd look for a one- or two-word phrase that conveys the
same "go for it, take the risk, commit..." attitude, which is what I
read as the heart of the poem.
HORRIBLE PUN WARNING:
It occurs to me that one entirely apt, and even poetically stylish,
title would be:
Phaethon Myself
Lee Gold
>
> I recall mentioning at a MASSFILC meeting that there had been a bunch of
> songs about, or at least mentioning, Icarus, but none that I knew of
> about Phaethon. Thanks for filling in the gap!
Kathy Mar sings a humorous song about Phaethon that leads in
to a father's telling his son he can't borrow the car tonight.
I don't know who wrote it.
--Lee
Mary Creasey
Gary McGath <gmc...@REMOVETHISmcgath.com> wrote in message
news:gmcgath-06637C...@news.shore.net...
>
> > And when I sing the early part of the verse for Cat's _Word_of_God_, I
> > keep slipping into _Hope_Eyrie_... so I've wondered if (part of?) the
> > tune for the former might have originated as a harmony for the latter.
>
> I once mentioned the similarity to Cat, and she said that she used Hope
> Eyrie as a starting point for creating her own tune. I've done the same
And when Leslie pointed it out to me, she also mentioned how
flattered she was that it _was_ borrowed, and used in a song
she likes a lot!
Mary
Robert B. Cooke
Ok, so I don't think in terms of glory. (g) I started out singing it
to a variant of "A Little Help From My Friends", shifted to Something
Else Completely In The Same Key (tm) for the second verse, alternated
the tunes one more time, then repeated verse one to end.
I LIKE IT! DO MORE!
(g)
Robert
nyma...@netway.com wrote:
>So, people said I should start by writing poems and let others set them to
>music. So, I wrote this. It's not the poem I mentioned wanting to write;
>that one's going to take me awhile. This one just kind of popped out the
>other day.
>
>I don't honestly know if it's any good; I might have lost the
>poetry-writing knack for good.
PUT YOUR HANDS ON THE MONITOR! HHEEAALL! CAN YOU FEEEEL THE SPIRIT?
SAY, "BAABY." PRAISE GHODS, SHE HAS BEEN HEALED OF THAT SELF DOUBT
DEMON. The ushers will now pass among you with the plates.
>But, assuming this baby is worth keeping...
>first of all, my scansion has always been bad, so please whap it for me.
>Second of all, are there any tunes I can sing this to? If it comes out to
>2 verses instead of 4, well, the better to not take up too long in the
>circle. Third, what on Earth should I call it? (^:
Actually, I thought of "Leap of Faith" or "Flight of Faith", but I
also like Joe's Horrible Pun, "Phaethon Myself"
>
<wonderful poem snipped>
>
>-Ny Martin
--
Robert B. Cooke
Cordele, Georgia
robert underscore b underscore cooke at mindspring dot com
"Cordele comes from Cordelia, but personally, I think of it
as meaning 'Heart of the song'"
Chris Croughton
<lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Kathy Mar sings a humorous song about Phaethon that leads in
>to a father's telling his son he can't borrow the car tonight.
>I don't know who wrote it.
I remember a translation of the Illiad (I don't remember whose; possible
a Penguin Classics or similar imprint) where I was thrown by a statement
that someone was in the van, closely followed by someone in their car.
Yes, I did eventually translate it to 'vanguard' and 'chariot', but it
was a severe case of cognitive dissonance...
("The Sun Drives Twelve Gold Horses - but the Moon drives a red
Chevette..." Thanks for the image, Talis!)
Chris C
Chris Croughton
<phyd...@liii.com> wrote:
>One day in Teletubbyland, mbot...@sprintmail.com (Michelle & Boyd Bottorff) said:
>>A lot of people seem to get stuck because they have one line that they
>>like, but they can't find a rhyme to match for the next line down. And
>>they sit there saying, "what rhymes with x?"
>
>Buy a rhyming dictionary. A *good* rhyming dictionary.
Are there any rhyming dictionaries which contain words like filk? And
does /anything/ have a decent rhyme for 'orange' (hint, it doesn't
rhyme with 'strange' in most dialects)?
Or more particularly, are there any which would suggest filking or other
stfnal words as potential rhymes?
I have a suspicion that the best such dictionary is still wetware, in
filkers' heads...
I agree with Heather's suggstion about taking the word and permuting it
with possible other initial letters, this is something I do a lot (not
necessarily to get rhymes, just to try to find a word on which my mind
has gone blank). It's even easier, of course, if you have a computer
with a decent list-of-words (I won't call any such list without
associated meanings a 'dictionary', no matter how many spill chuckers do
so) and a program to try out initial sequences and match the words.
Even better if the words have Soundex or other phonetic equivalents...
Chris C
David G. Bell
<slrn90nb5v...@dayspring.firedrake.org>
ch...@keristor.org "Chris Croughton" wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:16:15 GMT, Lee Gold
> <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >Kathy Mar sings a humorous song about Phaethon that leads in
> >to a father's telling his son he can't borrow the car tonight.
> >I don't know who wrote it.
>
> I remember a translation of the Illiad (I don't remember whose; possible
> a Penguin Classics or similar imprint) where I was thrown by a statement
> that someone was in the van, closely followed by someone in their car.
> Yes, I did eventually translate it to 'vanguard' and 'chariot', but it
> was a severe case of cognitive dissonance...
When Tolkien makes references to tales of an old Land Rover, you begin
to wonder if some of the vehicle-reference jokes are entirely accidental
coincidences.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
We suffer as a society and a culture when we don't pay the true value of
goods and services delivered. We create a lack of production. Less good
music is recorded if we remove the incentive to create it. -- Courtney Love
the Carrot-Topped
> I don't honestly know if it's any good; I might have lost the
> first of all, my scansion has always been bad, so please whap it for me.
> Second of all, are there any tunes I can sing this to? If it comes out to
> 2 verses instead of 4, well, the better to not take up too long in the
> circle. Third, what on Earth should I call it? (^:
Well, I have a slow, stately, heroic minor-key tune for it, which as I
analyze it, I realize is an improv on the traditional melody for the
Jewish song "Siman Tov" -- but it *does* work (believe it or not for those
who know the original). I'll sing it for you on Sunday if I remember it.
:/
It scans mostly, but then, as I think I mentioned to you once, being
Jewish and singing lots of Hebrew songs with odd scansion (ten syllables
in the first line of this verse, but 15 syllables in the first line of the
second verse, and only 6 in the first line of the third verse is rather
typical in such things-- though I'm certainly not saying that your poem
is like that) makes one very tolerant of such things. :/
Title-- maybe something like "Facing the Leap"?
--
R. S. Silverman
http://www.gingicat.org
"It isn't my fault that I'm supposed to be living in a musical and got
stuck in a dramatic production." --Robert Cooke, on rec.music.filk
Dave Weingart
>Are there any rhyming dictionaries which contain words like filk? And
I doubt it, but no rhyming dictionary will contain all words.
Lee Gold
>
> Are there any rhyming dictionaries which contain words like filk?
Well, mine does. It also contains other stfnal and scientific words.
It still needs a lot more work (and words) though.
Currently it's online in six Write files. I could email it to you
in ASCII.
And
> does /anything/ have a decent rhyme for 'orange' (hint, it doesn't
> rhyme with 'strange' in most dialects)?
Door-hinge is the best suggestion I've seen.
> I have a suspicion that the best such dictionary is still wetware, in
> filkers' heads...
My brain does fine on one-syllable words but doesn't easily pick up
multiple syllable words ending in that same stressed syllable
like "weight" rhyming not just with "fate" but with "debate" and "V8."
--Lee Gold
Lee Gold
>
> On 10 Nov, in article
> <slrn90nb5v...@dayspring.firedrake.org>
> ch...@keristor.org "Chris Croughton" wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 10 Nov 2000 02:16:15 GMT, Lee Gold
> > <lee...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> >
> > >to a father's telling his son he can't borrow the car tonight.
> > >I don't know who wrote it.
> >
> > a Penguin Classics or similar imprint) where I was thrown by a statement
> > that someone was in the van, closely followed by someone in their car.
> > Yes, I did eventually translate it to 'vanguard' and 'chariot', but it
> > was a severe case of cognitive dissonance...
>
> When Tolkien makes references to tales of an old Land Rover, you begin
> to wonder if some of the vehicle-reference jokes are entirely accidental
> coincidences.
Considering that Luthien Tinuviel was created to translate as
Florence Nightingale, I think all possible Tolkien puns are probably
deliberate.
--Lee Gold
Michelle & Boyd Bottorff
> I do a lot of rhymed verse and I have never used a rhyming dictionary to
> write it. (I own one, but only because it has a nice introduction
> explaining a wide variety of strict-form verse types.)
I don't even own one. <shrug>
If I did have one, it would always be somewhere else when I try and work
on a song anyway.
I do have a thesaurus (that never gets used when I'm writing anything.)
:)
Mark A. Mandel
: Are there any rhyming dictionaries which contain words like filk? And
: does /anything/ have a decent rhyme for 'orange' (hint, it doesn't
: rhyme with 'strange' in most dialects)?
NAFAIK... but "oranger" (comparative of the color word) rhymes with
"porringer" (dish for serving porridge). :-)\
-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
Philological Busybody
a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
Mark A. Mandel
: Are there any rhyming dictionaries which contain words like filk?
In kicking off the Oldies Session, I sang (ttto Banned from Argo)
We're filking with the oldies at Arisia '99
We've made these lyric sheets to help you sing and learn each line
So thank the folks who've volunteered to sing or lead each song
And please respect it if they ask you not to sing along.
I don't have a chorus for this filk
And not much rhymes with filk but milk and silk and ilk
It's getting pretty silly, so I'd better stop right now.
-- Mark A. Mandel
Arisia ex-filkczar... at last!
Blake Hodgetts
> Considering that Luthien Tinuviel was created to translate as
> Florence Nightingale, I think all possible Tolkien puns are probably
> deliberate.
>
> --Lee Gold
>
How do you translate "Florence" into Quenya? That is, what does
"Florence" mean, or what would be the grounding for saying that
"Luthien" means "Florence"? (I realize that Quenya is an invented
language, but there is presumably some etymological basis that
Tolkien had in mind.)
The only thing I can think of is possibly something having to do
with flowers? Is there a Quenya word for "flower" that is similar to
"Luthien"?
--blake
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Martin Julian DeMello
> Chris Croughton <ch...@keristor.org> wrote:
> : Are there any rhyming dictionaries which contain words like filk? And
> : does /anything/ have a decent rhyme for 'orange' (hint, it doesn't
> : rhyme with 'strange' in most dialects)?
> NAFAIK... but "oranger" (comparative of the color word) rhymes with
> "porringer" (dish for serving porridge). :-)\
In Sparkhill buried lies that man of mark
Who brought the Obelisk to Central Park
Redoubtable Commander H.H. Gorringe
Whose name supplies the long-sought rhyme for "orange."
-- Arthur Guiterman
--
Martin DeMello (quoting this for the n+1th time)
Lee Gold
>
> I don't have a chorus for this filk
> And not much rhymes with filk but milk and silk and ilk
bilk (meaning to con or cheat)
Lee Gold
>
> > Considering that Luthien Tinuviel was created to translate as
> > Florence Nightingale, I think all possible Tolkien puns are probably
> > deliberate.
> >
> > --Lee Gold
> >
>
> How do you translate "Florence" into Quenya? That is, what does
> "Florence" mean, or what would be the grounding for saying that
> "Luthien" means "Florence"?
> The only thing I can think of is possibly something having to do
> with flowers? Is there a Quenya word for "flower" that is similar to
> "Luthien"?
Loth as in Lothlorien and Luthien (one of which means Dreamflower).
The friends who explained the pun to me back in the late Sixties
(and who, I think, had access to more of Tolkien than LotR) said
Loth & Luth are related, and the pun was deliberate.
--Lee
Robert B. Cooke
!THANK YOU!
The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
un-rhymable is 'silver'
Any takers? (g)
Robert
--
Robert B. Cooke
Cordele, Georgia
robert underscore b underscore cooke at mindspring dot com
"Actually, 'Cordele' comes from Cordelia, but personally, I think of it
as meaning 'Heart of the Song'"
Plorkwort
>The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
>un-rhymable is 'silver'
>
>Any takers? (g)
My roommate last year invented the word "quilver," meaning "a large mob of
fierce and unfriendly squrrels" as a rhyme for silver.
Plorkwort
--
Valentine: Is there anything in it? That we are all doomed? Oh, yes, it's
called the second law of thermodynamics. Hannah: Was it known about?
Valentine: By poets and lunatics from time immemorial.
--Tom Stoppard, _Arcadia_
MegaMole
<robert_...@mindspring.com> writes
>
>The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
>un-rhymable is 'silver'
>
>Any takers? (g)
>
Does it have to be one word?
If not, then anything ending in an "il" syllable will work. For
example:
My triffid won me many a prize -
With Babygro I'd fill her.
Rivals cast their jealous eyes
On all my medals silver.
Or
Moishe's deli is the best -
The salt beef's pickled dill, the
Matzo balls, gefilte fish
And knives and forks of silver.
[two rather forced examples]
--
* MegaMole, The Official Enrico Basilica : Chocolate rix in thy tum *
* http://www.countertenor.demon.co.uk/index.html Filks, Liff, Stuff *
mo...@lspace.org mo...@music.slut.org.uk fi...@countertenor.demon.co.uk
"Listen! Lyf is gude, And thou art welbiloved and frended..." DQ 627
nyma...@netway.com
Maureen O'Brien <mob...@dnaco.net> wrote:
: Ny said:
:>I don't honestly know if it's any good; I might have lost the
:>poetry-writing knack for good. But, assuming this baby is worth >keeping...
: <raises book>
: BACK! Back, you demon of Self Doubt!
: <splats Ny's demon like a cockroach, which is rather messy>
Heh. Thanks, Maureen. :)
: Yes, it's good. Yes, it's worth keeping. And yes, it's so easy to set
: to a tune that I couldn't avoid doing it long enough to get to the
: third line! (Nice tune, too, I think.)
Oooo! Will you be at Philcon so I can hear it? :)
So, um....I think I might as well take the Bad Pun title Joe suggested,
not the least because it'll help lighten up the song a bit. And I wanted
to thank everyone for their help and suggestions. :) And I meant to say
something more substantiative than this, but my boyfriend is next to me on
his computer watching a cartoon about a dog without legs, so there went my
concentration. :)
Ny
Lee Gold
>
> Martin Julian DeMello <mdem...@kennel.ruf.rice.edu> wrote:
>
> >Mark A. Mandel <m...@world.std.take.this.out.com> wrote:
> >> Chris Croughton <ch...@keristor.org> wrote:
> >
> >> : Are there any rhyming dictionaries which contain words like filk? And
> >> : does /anything/ have a decent rhyme for 'orange' (hint, it doesn't
> >> : rhyme with 'strange' in most dialects)?
> >
> >> NAFAIK... but "oranger" (comparative of the color word) rhymes with
> >> "porringer" (dish for serving porridge). :-)\
> >
> >In Sparkhill buried lies that man of mark
> >Who brought the Obelisk to Central Park
> >Redoubtable Commander H.H. Gorringe
> >Whose name supplies the long-sought rhyme for "orange."
> >
> > -- Arthur Guiterman
> >
> >--
> >Martin DeMello (quoting this for the n+1th time)
>
> !THANK YOU!
>
> un-rhymable is 'silver'
>
> Any takers? (g)
You can rhyme it fully with "quicksilver" (but it's the
same sounds) and offrhyme it with words like "Wilbur."
Robert B. Cooke
>The moving finger of Robert B. Cooke wrote <robert_...@mindspring.com:
>>The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
>>un-rhymable is 'silver'
>>
>>Any takers? (g)
>
>My roommate last year invented the word "quilver," meaning "a large mob of
>fierce and unfriendly squrrels" as a rhyme for silver.
>
>Plorkwort
Hahahahehehehehe
Do you think your roommate would mind re-defining it as "a large mob
of fierce and unfriendly beings of a type which would ordinarily not
be a threat"? That would make it much more flexible in both
conversation and songs.
"Run, there's a quilver of pokemon approaching."
Robert B. Cooke
>In article <3a0c8668...@news.mindspring.com>, Robert B. Cooke
><robert_...@mindspring.com> writes
>>
>>The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
>>un-rhymable is 'silver'
>>
>>Any takers? (g)
>>
>>Robert
>
>Does it have to be one word?
>
>If not, then anything ending in an "il" syllable will work. For
>example:
>
>My triffid won me many a prize -
>With Babygro I'd fill her.
>Rivals cast their jealous eyes
>On all my medals silver.
>
>Or
>
>Moishe's deli is the best -
>The salt beef's pickled dill, the
>Matzo balls, gefilte fish
>And knives and forks of silver.
>
>[two rather forced examples]
>--
Umm, for me, neither "fill her" nor "dill, the" rhymes with "silver."
I really like the triffid verse, though. Does that count? (g)
Mark, are you out there? In Dr. Whom's opinion, would a rhyme require
another word with the "lv" sound? (or is there a Klingon rhyme...?)
Lee Gold's "quicksilver" might count, but I'm inclined to regard that
as repetition rather than rhyme. YMMV.
Daniel R. Reitman
(Robert B. Cooke) wrote:
>The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
>un-rhymable is 'silver'
>Any takers? (g)
I believe it was Stephen Sondheim who came up with
To find a rhyme for silver
Or any "rhymeless" rhyme
Requires only will, ver-
Bosity, and time.
Dan, ad nauseam
Mark A. Mandel
:>--
Which, as you are probably aware, is the only known (form of) rhyme for
the word "month". :-)\
: The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
: un-rhymable is 'silver'
And "purple".
-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
Philological Busybody
a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
--
To reply by email, remove the obvious spam-blocker from my edress.
Mark A. Mandel
Yeah, yeah, that's why I made it "not much" instead of "nothing" (which,
to be truthful, I sang at the time).
-- Mark
Mark A. Mandel
: Mark, are you out there? In Dr. Whom's opinion, would a rhyme require
: another word with the "lv" sound? (or is there a Klingon rhyme...?)
: Lee Gold's "quicksilver" might count, but I'm inclined to regard that
: as repetition rather than rhyme. YMMV.
Yes and yes. The usual rules for rhyme in English require complete
identity from the vowel of the rhyme to the end, but difference before (so
"quicksilver" would be disqualified, as self-rhyme). The reference point
usually, and in this case, is the vowel of the accented syllable. If we
said that "fill her" rhymes with "silver", we would have to allow "filler"
as well. We do not. It can work as a near-rhyme, if you wish it to, much
as creators of alphabets (A is for ...) often cheat on X with words like
eXecutive, because there are so few legitimate options; but it is not a
rhyme.
Klingon has the "lv" cluster (N.B.: two sounds, not one, by any analysis),
but not the vocalic "r" sound that we spell "er" here, so there is no K.
rhyme for it. If we look for approximations using the *Klingon* <er>,
which approximately rhymes with the first syllable of "merry" (in the
speech of those who pronounce "merry" differently than "Mary" and
"marry"), we still find no K. words ending in <er>. The closest approach
would be a word like <vergh>, meaing 'dock' (noun or verb). You could have
a compound such as <jIlvergh>, literally 'neighbor-dock', which presumably
would mean something like the next dock over.
Walter de la Mare wrote a poem called "Silver" that uses the word in
almost every line, but never at the end. It begins
Slowly, silently, now the moon
Walks the night in her silver shoon.
("Shoon" is an archaic plural of "shoe".)
-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
Philological Busybody
a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
Mark A. Mandel
: I don't honestly know if it's any good; I might have lost the
: poetry-writing knack for good.
Rule 1: Don't apologize. (And don't apologize for apologizing...)
: [...] But, assuming this baby is worth keeping...
[poem snipped]
Oh, my! Oh, WOW!! Yes, yes, yes it is!! And I am keeping it!!
-- Mark
Mark A. Mandel
: When Tolkien makes references to tales of an old Land Rover, you begin
: coincidences.
Are you think of Landroval the Eagle?
-- Mark A. Mandel
FIJAGH! Now, *filking*, on the other hand...
http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html
Mark A. Mandel
: Considering that Luthien Tinuviel was created to translate as
: Florence Nightingale, I think all possible Tolkien puns are probably
: deliberate.
Shite! Reference, please?!
-- Mark
Mark A. Mandel
: Loth as in Lothlorien and Luthien (one of which means Dreamflower).
: The friends who explained the pun to me back in the late Sixties
: (and who, I think, had access to more of Tolkien than LotR) said
: Loth & Luth are related, and the pun was deliberate.
Lothlo/rien is 'dreamflower', according to Bombadil IIRC. Yes, I think
you're right about "loth", but I don't know about its connection to
"Lu/thien". (run to the shelf in the living room) OK, according to the
Appendix to the Silmarillion:
loth
'flower' in "Lothlo/rien", "Nimloth"; Quenya "lo/te:"
in "Ninquelo/te:", "Vingilo'te:".
It says nothing about lu/th, which doesn't disprove anything.
I'm using / for acute accent on the preceding vowel and : for dieresis
("umlaut").
-- Dr. Whom, Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and
Philological Busybody
a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel
Dave Weingart
>Oooo! Will you be at Philcon so I can hear it? :)
Philcon roll call? (As Dave raises his hand)
Lee Gold
>
> Philcon roll call? (As Dave raises his hand)
We expect to be there, barring unforeseen emergencies.
Just let us know as soon as you can what facility the filking
will be in.
--Lee Gold
Martin Julian DeMello
' We're filking with the oldies at Arisia '99
' We've made these lyric sheets to help you sing and learn each line
' So thank the folks who've volunteered to sing or lead each song
' And please respect it if they ask you not to sing along.
' I don't have a chorus for this filk
' And not much rhymes with filk but milk and silk and ilk
' It's getting pretty silly, so I'd better stop right now.
And someone's gonna end it anyhow.
--
Martin "my completion drive made me do it" DeMello
Martin Julian DeMello
> I don't honestly know if it's any good; I might have lost the
> poetry-writing knack for good. But, assuming this baby is worth keeping...
Wow! It certainly is! And you definitely haven't lost the knack (the
alternative is scary :)) Gonna keep a copy and hope it inspires me enough to
write the Icarus poem I keep meaning to essay.
> first of all, my scansion has always been bad, so please whap it for me.
> Second of all, are there any tunes I can sing this to? If it comes out to
> 2 verses instead of 4, well, the better to not take up too long in the
> circle. Third, what on Earth should I call it? (^:
> I stand here, facing a new chance,
> A sudden upswing to my fate,
This was the only problem I had with the scansion (it's a strongly duple
line; I'd want to replace 'upswing' with something that went x /), and even
that would prolly vanish if I heard you reciting or singing it.
Tunes? 'Where do you go to my lovely' was the first thing that popped into
my head when I started reading it, but that's prolly no help :)
As for a title - can't think of one offhand, but using a phrase from another
poem might be a nice idea. Or maybe something like 'Perihelion' (weak, but
you get the general drift).
--
Martin DeMello
Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.
-- Dylan Thomas
Martin Julian DeMello
> :>--
> :>Martin DeMello (quoting this for the n+1th time)
> *****
> Which, as you are probably aware, is the only known (form of) rhyme for
> the word "month". :-)\
:) I love this ng.
> : The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
> : un-rhymable is 'silver'
> And "purple".
While it's true that any twerp'll
Try to find a rhyme for 'purple'
All uncaring that such rhymes do not exist
And will follow up with 'silver'
For, until he's had his fill'ver,
He may find the Muse a challenge to resist
Third (or fourth, or n+1th)
When he gets around to 'month'
He'll discover, as he did the other times
That his effort's wasted, for in general
Words like these (and 'orange')
Are inflicted with a paucity of rhymes
[credit-where-due - the silver/fill'ver rhyme was shamelessly stolen from a
poet who's name I forget. n+1th I got from the rec.puzzles archive, where
it's uncredited.
Oh, and exist/resist is semi-assonant but it works. Though I really
shouldn't have used 'rhymes' both in line 3 and at the end - does 'vainly
searching for a loophole or a twist' work better in the former?]
--
Martin DeMello
Martin Julian DeMello
> Mind you, if you want to write comic verse, you should take all the
> rules of thumb in this post and turn them on their heads.
[...]
Except, IMHO, this one:
> If you have a really hard time finding a rhyme for an existing line, try
> re-wording it to put a different word in the rhyming position (but
> _don't_ cripple the syntax to do so), or try substituting a different
> word with similar meaning.
It's *extremely* hard to get away with strained syntax, even for humorous
effect; I've seen a number of otherwise good filks that were ruined for me
by strained, unnatural, inverted or just plain wrong phrasing thrown in for
the sake of scansion and rhyme.
--
Martin DeMello
Dave Weingart
>> Philcon roll call? (As Dave raises his hand)
>
>We expect to be there, barring unforeseen emergencies.
>Just let us know as soon as you can what facility the filking
>will be in.
*grin* Not Millennium Philcon, Lee :)
The regular, plain old, once-a-year Philcon, taking place a week
from yesterday 'til a week from tomorrow :)
Filk will most likely be in the main con hotel at MilPhil
Bruce Adelsohn
>
> One day in Teletubbyland, nyma...@netway.com said:
> >Oooo! Will you be at Philcon so I can hear it? :)
>
> Philcon roll call? (As Dave raises his hand)
(Counting off, in unison with Dave and all other attendees:) ONE!
--
- mka Bruce Adelsohn - ska Stefan Davidson -
bru...@cybernex.net | http://www.rishathra.com/Bruce
All heroes have flaws. | I'm no hero.
May you live as long as you wish, and love as long as you live!
Mary Creasey
Chris Croughton <ch...@keristor.org> wrote in message
news:slrn90i1vm...@dayspring.firedrake.org...
> On 07 Nov 2000 23:46:36 GMT, Margaret Middleton
> <msm...@aol.comstatic> wrote:
>
> >>Don't forget, many
> >>hymns swiped their melodies from other sources;
> >
> >Many of them probably just as non-respectable as "To Anacreon in Heaven",
the
> >drinking song which Francis Scott Key used to base "The Star Spangled
Banner"
> >on.
>
> It happened both ways, a lot of songs which we now know as secular
> started off as church melodies and acquired profane[1] words.
>
> [1] Which meant simply "non-religious", but over time became used like
> 'irreligious' to mean obscene or blasphemous. I love how languages
> changes...
>
> >BTW: Rudyard Kipling used hymn tunes as structural guides for much of
HIS
> >poetry-writing, which is a lot of why it is so easy for us a century
later to
> >set them to fresh music (if we can't deduce the originals)
>
> One of fairly few poets whose work can almost all either be read as
> poetry or set easily to music. This may be one reason he is generally
> highly regarded among filkers.
I've often thought that it would be a neat master's thesis or doctoral
dissertation to do research on the music of Kipling's day (not forgetting
the music-hall genre) and his own writings, both published and unpublished--
and see just WHAT tunes he had in mind for given poems.
I've heard Bellamy's tunes (which, IIRC, are based on the music-hall stuff).
Maybe it's my cultural difference, but I find the tunes that the filkers use
(Fish, Coulson, Longcor, others) seem to fit a lot of the songs better.
Mary
Martin Julian DeMello
> The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
> un-rhymable is 'silver'
> Any takers? (g)
See my follow up to Mark Mandel's post downthread :)
--
Martin DeMello
Martin Julian DeMello
> Are inflicted with a paucity of rhymes
Ack! I really did mean to say 'afflicted'.
--
Martin DeMello (up waaaaay too late)
Lee Gold
>
> One day in Teletubbyland, Lee Gold <lee...@mediaone.net> said:
> >> Philcon roll call? (As Dave raises his hand)
> >
> >We expect to be there, barring unforeseen emergencies.
> >Just let us know as soon as you can what facility the filking
> >will be in.
>
>
> The regular, plain old, once-a-year Philcon, taking place a week
> from yesterday 'til a week from tomorrow :)
>
> Filk will most likely be in the main con hotel at MilPhil
Ah, I see. Umm, will there be a Philcon in the same year at
the Millennium Philcon? And any particular reason you charming
people decided to give Worldcon the same last name as your
regional -- and confuse some of the rest of us?
--Lee
the Carrot-Topped
I'll be there (running the Arisia party Saturday night, in fact). Jacob
Sommer and Ny Martin will also be there.
BTW, if anyone is interested in participating in the Philcon kosher Friday
night dinner, email me privately.
Best,
Rachel
--
R. S. Silverman
http://www.gingicat.org
"It isn't my fault that I'm supposed to be living in a musical and got
stuck in a dramatic production." --Robert Cooke, on rec.music.filk
Margaret Middleton
>(Fish, Coulson, Longcor, others) seem to fit a lot of the songs better.
>
Possibly that is because they *were* un-influenced by the tunes Kipling had in
mind, and were working only from the message of the text?
MSMinLR(at)aol.com (Margaret Middleton)
Shameless Plug for our local con: http://www.rockon.org
Help make a Quilted Artifact to sell for Interfilk:
http://members.aol.com/msminlr/ifquilt.htm
Maureen O'Brien
I never really thought about it before I got deep into filking, but
a lot of the rhymes in my rhyming dictionary really aren't, for me.
Living in Dayton, I can pronounce words two or three different ways
(Ohio North, Ohio Appalachian, or Dayton I-Live-By-An-Air-Force-Base-
And-Our-Regional-Dialect-Is-Everywhere), but usually not the rhyming
dictionary way.
Oh, I know how things are supposed to be pronounced, but 'our' really
is pronounced the same way as 'are' more times than it's pronounced
'ow-er' around here. 'Exist' really is 'iggzist' more often than
'eggzist'. And, sad though I am to admit it (and I really am sad; it
just ruins a lot of my early poems), 'again' may be pronounced 'agen'
or 'agin', but never to rhyme with 'slain' or 'pain' or 'rain' or
'bane'. And then, I have to try to remember whether I'm singing 'when'
as 'wen', 'win', or 'wuhn' (as in "One Eye Was a Boy", if you're singing
it fast and not doing the ol' geezer accent) so that it rhymes right!
(And people wonder why England produced so much lyrical poetry. They
just have the advantage of sounding like the rhymes in the books.)
(Although I'm sure many of you get the same kind of dialect overlap....)
Although I must admit my life was improved by learning that the proper
pronunciation of 'kludge' (as 'kludge' or 'kloozh') depended on which
of two identical spellings derived from entire different meanings and
languages one was referring to. <g>
OTOH, Ireland will never convince gamers not to pronounce 'geas' as
'jee-us', 'gi-us', or 'gay-us'. Never.
Maureen, who was in fact pronouncing her name one Appalachian way when
she proposed her title of 'Mor-Righan' earlier, but usually doesn't use
3 sylls. Of course, Maureen is also commonly pronounced Mahreen (by my
aunt from Lon Guyland), Marine, Mreen, Marie, Eileen, Irene, and, like
the town I work in, Moraine. <g>
Margaret Middleton
>just ruins a lot of my early poems), 'again' may be pronounced 'agen'
>or 'agin', but never to rhyme with 'slain' or 'pain' or 'rain' or
>'bane'.
Or even 'Spain'
Martin Julian DeMello
>>And, sad though I am to admit it (and I really am sad; it
>>just ruins a lot of my early poems), 'again' may be pronounced 'agen'
>>or 'agin', but never to rhyme with 'slain' or 'pain' or 'rain' or
>>'bane'.
> Or even 'Spain'
Though even the better English poets have rhymed it both ways (presumably as
an eye rhyme for the ~ain words)
There was a young lady from Spain
Who was sick as she rode on a train
Not just once but again
And again and again
And again and again and again
-- Anon (but shades of Kanef :))
--
Martin DeMello
Margaret Middleton
>
>Though even the better English poets have rhymed it both ways (presumably as
>an eye rhyme for the ~ain words)
I was actually thinking of "My Fair Lady" :
Liza --
"The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain"
Higgins --
"Again"
Martin Julian DeMello
>>> Or even 'Spain'
>>
>>Though even the better English poets have rhymed it both ways (presumably as
>>an eye rhyme for the ~ain words)
> I was actually thinking of "My Fair Lady" :
> Liza --
> "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain"
> Higgins --
> "Again"
Ah - I was thinking of Kipling's "Way Through the Woods":
They shut the road through the woods
Seventy years ago.
Weather and rain have undone it again,
And now you would never know ...
--
Martin DeMello
Jacob Sommer
What about when deliberately off scansion is put in for effect? I do that
on a few of my songs.
Jacob
Steve Brinich
>
> One day in Teletubbyland, nyma...@netway.com said:
> >Oooo! Will you be at Philcon so I can hear it? :)
>
> Philcon roll call? (As Dave raises his hand)
See you there (I'll be running a few things in gaming and on one panel
in filking).
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Conterpoint Four: http://www.filker.org/conterpoint/
Mark A. Mandel
: : The other English word (that I'm aware of) that is traditionally
: : un-rhymable is 'silver'
: And "purple".
And, come to think of it, a number of other non-basic color words, such as
"crimson", "beige", "turquoise" (if paroxytone, i.e., stressed on the
penult. Oxytone, stressed on the ultima, it rhymes with "boys" and such).