Re: BALLAD OF JACK AND THE BEANSTALK (tune: BALLAD OF JACK THE RIPPER by Leslie Fish)
Paul Rubin
> I wrote the following during tonight's (April 1, 2005) episode of the
> CBS-TV show JOAN OF ARCADIA - the plot of that episode had a law-class
> conducting a mock-trial of Jack vs. the Giant from the fairy-tale "Jack
> and the Beanstalk."
>
> BALLAD OF JACK AND THE BEANSTALK by Kate Gladstone
> (tune: "Ballad of Jack the Ripper" by Leslie Fish)
> ...
Excellent! Do you have the lyrics on a web site? I'd like to link it
into Wikipedia:
Filksinger
> Giants and trolls and ogres used to be fair game
> to rob and kill because they were weird and ugly,
> very like D&D.
>
> --Lee
Actually, I think it was more of a form of racism. In D&D, old fairy
tales, and Tolkien, it is a given that certain creatures are inherently
evil. If they have wealth, it is always obtained by murder and looting,
or, if not, you are allowed to take it from them because of a sort of
privateering morality.
As a GM, I was always the sort to get an entire band of adventurers
killed because they stupidly killed the law-abiding orc farmers, and got
hung for it. Usually, this was groups at cons or something, as I gave
fair warning to my players.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
Kate Gladstone
> Kate Gladstone wrote:
> >
> > Lee notes:
> >
> > > Giants and trolls and ogres used to be fair game
> > > to rob and kill because they were weird and ugly, ...
> >
> > What a [um ... er ...], magnificent thing to teach children ...
>
> Urr, I hope it came across that I didn't approve. ...
Yes, that did come across.
Otherwise, I'd have responded *far* more fiercely!
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair - ka...@global2000.net
http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Filksinger
> As someone who's always identified with Dick Deadeye in "HMS Pianfore"
> and with the three-eyed daughters in fairy tales, I've always assumed
> that it wasn't racism but prejudice against those who look or act
> different, the same justification my schoolmates had for picking on me
> because I was shorter and fatter and got better grades. But yes, I
> do agree that trolls (dark-skinned creatures who lived in the ground),
> rather like the Scandinavian view of Lapps and Slavs (who dug pits
> into the ground for dwellings, as protection from the winter cold,
> are victims of racism. The giant stories may similarly point to
> a shorter ethnic group's view of a taller one. I'm not at all sure
> about the prejudice against three-eyed and one-eyed people.
>
> --Lee
Both, I suppose. Both racism and prejudice against those who simply look
different, even when of the same race, are found in fairy tales.
And racism is, to a large degree, a prejudice against those who look and
act differently, after all. So, I suppose, your observation is the more
general case, while my observation of racism is a more specific case.
Kate Gladstone
> So, as you
> note above, the state of being a giant is treated as an
> implicit debit: ...
... much like "the state of being an orc or troll or giant sentient
spider" in Tolkien - some other fantasy writer (LeGuin?) once commented
that J. R. R. Tolkien could (or at least would) never have written a
story in which any orc, any troll, or Shelob repented of evil and began
doing good.
Orcs, trolls, and Shelob, in THE HOBBIT/LORD OF THE RINGS, come across
as irremediably "stuck" in evilness:
something like "original sin" ...
... only more so, because religions that believe in "original sin"
generally believe that people can get rid of their "original sin" by
some process. Orcs/trolls/Shelob apparently don't have this option -
conveniently for Tolkien and his heroes, who can kill orcs or whatever
on sight with no moral qualms.
(not just "shoot first, ask questions later" as in the cops-and-robbers
or cowboy-story genres - more like "shoot first, because you don't even
NEED to ask questions, ever. See orc, kill orc - case closed!")
Kate Gladstone
>
> Some days. In some places,,, I'm just an old man walking with a stick
> these days... The stick is about a 1.5" diameter LILAC limb. I don't
> know how much you know about woods... But let's say I don't worry too
> much when I'm using that walking stick
I have heard that, during the Middle Ages, lilac and dogwood often
served as "metal substitutes" for such purposes as making gears and
other mechanical/handicraft parts whode durability mattered greatly.
Joe Ellis
Kate Gladstone <ka...@global2000.net> wrote:
> Re:
>
> > So, as you
> > note above, the state of being a giant is treated as an
> > implicit debit: ...
>
> ... much like "the state of being an orc or troll or giant sentient
> spider" in Tolkien - some other fantasy writer (LeGuin?) once commented
> that J. R. R. Tolkien could (or at least would) never have written a
> story in which any orc, any troll, or Shelob repented of evil and began
> doing good.
>
> Orcs, trolls, and Shelob, in THE HOBBIT/LORD OF THE RINGS, come across
> as irremediably "stuck" in evilness:
>
> something like "original sin" ...
>
> ... only more so, because religions that believe in "original sin"
> generally believe that people can get rid of their "original sin" by
> some process. Orcs/trolls/Shelob apparently don't have this option -
> conveniently for Tolkien and his heroes, who can kill orcs or whatever
> on sight with no moral qualms.
>
> (not just "shoot first, ask questions later" as in the cops-and-robbers
> or cowboy-story genres - more like "shoot first, because you don't even
> NEED to ask questions, ever. See orc, kill orc - case closed!")
I think Tolien is a particularly bad example for your point, but that may be
because you don't know the WHOLE story... because it goes beyond Hobbit/LOTR.
If you read the background material it becomes clear that the orcs, trolls, and
what-not have no free will and are directly created by evil. It is "impossible"
for them to "repent".
POTENTIAL LOTR MYTHOS SPOILERS FOLLOW:
Digging through "The Simarillion" (which, unfortunately, was my _first_
encounter with Tolkien... it took me years to get over that.), the closest
parallel that I see to the saga in terms most would be familiar with would be
the pre-Adam-and-Eve story of the fall of Lucifer and his followers. Sauron is a
FAR bigger "badass" than most realize - he's not just the embodiment of evil, he
_is_ The First Evil, and his allies took various other forms to walk
Middle-Earth... among them Shelob and Balrogs. (And the Forces of Good also
assumed other forms - some of them even appearing to be Men... Suffice it to
say, Gandolf was "slumming"...) Sauron's creatures are his attempts at creation
based on the creations of Elves, Men, Dwarves, and others. He is incapable of
"singing the Chorus of Creation" by himself or with his followers (It's far too
complex for his limited resources), but he _can_ sow "disharmony" in the
creations of others, as he did in the beginning at the First Creation. Orcs
weren't created from nothing, they are perversions of Elves. Goblins, of
Dwarves. The Wraiths, of Men. The Uruk-Hai, perversions of Orcs crossed with
Men. (I might not be remembering the exact relationships correctly, but you get
the idea...)
It's important to note that in the LOTR Saga, the "gods" of whatever persuasion
are not omnicient, not perfect, not infallible, and _very_much_not_ all-powerful
OR immortal, though they _are_ extraodrinarily difficult to destroy. Sauron had
been defeated at least twice before LOTR, but the Good Guys were
unwilling/unable to completely destroy him.
The evil creatures in LOTR are the very _embodiment_ of evil, not just good guys
gone bad. They're "bad to the bone" because they were deliberately _made_ that
way by or at the direction of Sauron. It _is_ very black and white, but
remember, Tolkien said flat out he was creating an "English Mythology", not an
alternate universe or anything intended to approach reality.
--
"What it all comes to is that the whole structure of space flight as it
stands now is creaking, obsolecent, over-elaborate, decaying. The field is
static; no, worse than that, it's losing ground. By this time, our ships
ought to be sleeker and faster, and able to carry bigger payloads. We ought
to have done away with this dichotomy between ships that can land on a planet,
and ships that can fly from one planet to another." - Senator Bliss Wagoner
James Blish - _They Shall Have Stars_
John in Detroit
would fit in my daughter's car (She drove) and I found the procedure for
cutting Lilic
Now, it turns out that when I went to Jack Chalker's funeral his brother
-in-law knows woods and he chorsed with me on the last line of this
Step 1: Install new blade in power saw
Step 2: Measure and cut
Step 3: (The part we chorused on) Install new blade.....
I can believe it as a metal substitute. It sure is not pine!!!!!
Kate Gladstone wrote:
> I have heard that, during the Middle Ages, lilac and dogwood often
> served as "metal substitutes" for such purposes as making gears and
> other mechanical/handicraft parts whode durability mattered greatly.
>
--
John F Davis, in Delightful Detroit. WA8YXM(at)arrl(dot)net
"Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business"
Diabetic? http://community.compuserve.com/diabetes
Aaron Davies
> Digging through "The Simarillion" (which, unfortunately, was my _first_
> encounter with Tolkien... it took me years to get over that.), the closest
> parallel that I see to the saga in terms most would be familiar with would
> be the pre-Adam-and-Eve story of the fall of Lucifer and his followers.
> Sauron is a FAR bigger "badass" than most realize - he's not just the
> embodiment of evil, he _is_ The First Evil, and his allies took various
> other forms to walk Middle-Earth... among them Shelob and Balrogs.
ITYM Melkor aka Morgoth. Sauron is just one of Morgoth's many sidekicks.
Morgoth was the one responsible for creating orcs, trolls, etc. Shelob
is a special case, being the descendant of the spider Ungoliant, another
sidekick of Morgoth's.
But on the overall picture, you're right--the evil creatures in Middle
Earth have, in general, no free will.
--
Aaron Davies
Opinions expressed are solely those of a random number generator.
"I don't know if it's real or not but it is a myth."
-Jami JoAnne of alt.folklore.urban, showing her grasp on reality.
Joe Ellis
aa...@avalon.pascal-central.com.invalid (Aaron Davies) wrote:
> Joe Ellis <synth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Digging through "The Simarillion" (which, unfortunately, was my _first_
> > encounter with Tolkien... it took me years to get over that.), the closest
> > parallel that I see to the saga in terms most would be familiar with would
> > be the pre-Adam-and-Eve story of the fall of Lucifer and his followers.
> > Sauron is a FAR bigger "badass" than most realize - he's not just the
> > embodiment of evil, he _is_ The First Evil, and his allies took various
> > other forms to walk Middle-Earth... among them Shelob and Balrogs.
>
> ITYM Melkor aka Morgoth.
Yeah, that's it... <<sigh>> It's been awhile... OK, So Sauron _is_ AN original
badass, but not THE original Boss Badass... ;)
> Sauron is just one of Morgoth's many sidekicks.
> Morgoth was the one responsible for creating orcs, trolls, etc. Shelob
> is a special case, being the descendant of the spider Ungoliant, another
> sidekick of Morgoth's.
>
> But on the overall picture, you're right--the evil creatures in Middle
> Earth have, in general, no free will.
--
Lee Gold
>
> some other fantasy writer (LeGuin?) once commented
> that J. R. R. Tolkien could (or at least would) never have written a
> story in which any orc, any troll, or Shelob repented of evil and began
> doing good.
I ran a roleplaying campaign with a rebellious teenage
balrog who ran away from home and parents to join the
Good Guys, considerably startling the Archbishop of
Canterbury. (She ended up heading the city militia.)
E. E. Smith seems to have believed that the Eddorians
and a few other races were uniformly villainous,
something else I found implausible.
--Lee
John in Detroit
I guess, if yours is an evil family, then the black sheep is the good
one. Example... There have been many cop shows (And folks this is not
just TV) where one of the officers has "Family Ties" I'm taking mob type
family here. By the way... I know a Michigan State Trooper who's
family happens to be one of "those Familys" he is clearly the "Black
Sheep" from his father's point of view.. One very good trooper from my
point of view.
Lee Gold wrote:
>
> E. E. Smith seems to have believed that the Eddorians
> and a few other races were uniformly villainous,
> something else I found implausible.
>
> --Lee
--
Filksinger
<snip>
> I was quoting a song... And pointing out that bigotry, racism and hate
> of folks who are different, has NOT changed. What has changed is what'
> is socially acceptable, and that has not changed as much as you know.
Sorry. I have known people who really believed that "nothing had
changed", and used this to excuse their own unacceptable, sometimes
appalling, behavior. After all, if nothing had changed from non-violent
means, then violence was justified, in their minds.
> You said that years ago declaring yourself to be homosexual could get
> you locked up in a mental hospital.. Today it gets you beaten to a
> bloody pulp and if you survive there may well be enough brain damage
> that your fate will be that very same hospital (in some places at least)
> it means the police won't look into your beating/homicide as
> aggressively as they would, say, the mayor's (again in some places)
It got you beat up then, too, and a lot more routinely. Today, it is
news, because it is both unacceptable and less common.
And, while the investigation may be less well investigated than it
should be, it is a lot better than no investigation, being locked up for
admitting that you were a homosexual, and having the person who beat
you, if even arrested, getting off because "he came on to me" was a
positive defense.
> There are still places where you and your wife would be treated much the
> same way.
>
> Thankfully, these places are becoming fewer and farther between
>
> And yes, the situation is improving as to what meanness is allowed
>
> But when the teachers stand there and watch a bunch of school yard
> bullies beat a genius into a near vegetative sstate, brain damage
> (Story posted by another in this tread) can you really say that things
> have changed? Some yes, but not nearly enough.
Enough? No, not enough. But it takes only a few minutes with a member of
most persecuted minorities, discussing their childhood and youth, to
realize they have changed quite a bit.
But I can't make it rhyme, or even come up with a good point to a song.
Maybe a point counterpoint, similar to "The Preacher and the Prof"?
Kate Gladstone
"background material" Joe may have in mind, I knew) that:
> ... the orcs, trolls, and
> what-not have no free will and are directly created by evil. It is
> "impossible" for them to "repent".
Yes, which supports rather than rebutting my point: orcs/trolls/etc.
literally cannot (in the universe of LOTR/SILMARILLION/etc.) choose
goodness, making it morally acceptable (in fact, morally good) to kill
them on sight if you can - sort of like "the only good Indian is a dead
Indian" in a lot of "wild West" stories/movies, or "the only good
[German / Japanese] is a dead one" in various World War II films and
books (the more stereotypical ones, that literally portray ALL Native
Americans/Germans/Japanese/whatever as bad to the bone, presumably from
the moment of conception.)
POTENTIAL LOTR-MYTHOS SPOILER FOLLOWS:
Note also that Tolkien denies free will, not only to those "directly
created by evil," but also (until a Divine Intervention happens) to a
race created by one of the good (or, at least, not directly-and-totally
evil) guys.
I refer, of course, to the Dwarves, whom (as the SILMARILLION informs
us) Aule of the Valar created: basically as a sort of "wrong guess"
about what kind of sentients Middle Earth would need to survive and
combat evil. When Aule creates the seven "fathers of the Dwarves," they
don't have free will - and they don't get free will until after Iluvatar
(God) shows wrath to Aule for having dared to, literally, "play God" by
creating life (at which point, as you will remember, Aule repents what
he did and begs Iluvatar for forgiveness - then, Iluvatar does a
miracle to give the Dwarves free will.)
This makes it look as though Tolkien assumed that life-forms don't get
free will except via God (which would normally, I suppose, happen at
their creation/birth/conception) - so life-forms created by others
instead of God don't have free will unless God decides to grant it by
miracle:
in the case of life-forms created by "career evildoers" such as Sauron,
then God presumably declines to pass the requisite miracle.
(He passed a miracle for Aule's creations because Aule repented of
"playing God.")
To me, this looks uneasily like the assumption now/recently made by some
- well, I can most kindly call them "scientifically ignorant people" -
who say things like "we can't let scientists do cloning because
anyone/anything made in a lab instead of made by God would be unnatural,
would not have a soul and therefore would not have free will." (Funny
thing: the people who object to cloning humans and livestock on the
grounds of "unnaturalness" - e.g., I actually have heard people say "I
wouldn't eat meat from a cloned sheep because it might make me a clone,
too!" - have no problem with growing cuttings from plants, or with
eating apples from a tree that grew from a cutting. Back to Tolkien:)
I literally cannot believe that, if a sentient life-form gets started in
a lab (or in the Middle-Earth equivalent - Aule's workshop, or Sauron's)
that it would have any less free will than those who arrive on the
planet through more usual processes. I can't believe, in other words,
that it would take a special miracle to give "lab creations" (like the
Dwarves) free will. (And if God could do it for the Dwarves, he could do
it for the Orcs if He wanted to. But He doesn't want to - which puts the
God of the LOTR mythos in the strange position of, basically, condemning
whole races of sentients [orcs and trolls] to eternal evilness because
they had an evil "parent" - Sauron - so God didn't see fit to give them
a way to become anything BUT evil.)
Frankly, I cannot respect such a God - and, yes, I admit that this gets
in the way of my enjoying Tolkien as much as most people do.
Re:
> ... Tolkien said flat out he was creating an "English Mythology", not
> an
> alternate universe or anything intended to approach reality.
The Silmarillion account of how Melkor rebelled against Iluvatar comes
very close to Christian (particularly medieval Catholic) tellings of
Lucifer's rebellion against God. Since Tolkien regarded Christianity
(and in particular Catholicism) as true, then this part of his mythos
(if nothing else) approaches what he regarded as reality.
By the way (still Tolkien, but not re God/evil/free will/etc.) -
has anyone noticed that Tolkien has, at one point, seven Dwarves (the
"Seven Fathers of the Dwarves") and at another point he has Snow-White
(as a poetic title of Elbereth)? But Tolkien's Dwarves (since they
generally have misgivings about anything to do with Elves) *don't*
particularly love the "Snow-White" of Tolkien's universe ...
John in Detroit
quarter century, which might shock even you though. Some of them are
covered by NDAs however so I can't go into detail.
And as for those who use "Nothing has changed" to excuse their behavior
Personally.. I do not believe there is any excuse..
To quote another song:
What Color is God's Skin
It is black, brown, it's yellow, it's red and it's white
Every man's the same in the Good Lord's sight
(Copyright "Up With People" a school, it's closed now)
--
John in Detroit
were working for the USofA, but they were Germans and related
neighboring countries... My Uncles among them
Imagine this scene... It's the middle of WW II, there is a long table,
On one side of the table are a couple of family sons and their NAVY
buddies... ON the other side a couple of family sons and their ARMY
buddies, it's Los Angles, CA. USA. At the head of the table sits the
Family Father (Can't spell the proper word) saying Grace before meals
"Bless us or Lord and These thy gifts......."
In flawless GERMAN
Kate Gladstone wrote:
--
David G. Bell
<kate-E34DAE.1...@syrcnyrdrs-03-ge0.nyroc.rr.com>
ka...@global2000.net "Kate Gladstone" wrote:
> Re:
>
> > So, as you
> > note above, the state of being a giant is treated as an
> > implicit debit: ...
>
> ... much like "the state of being an orc or troll or giant sentient
> spider" in Tolkien - some other fantasy writer (LeGuin?) once commented
> that J. R. R. Tolkien could (or at least would) never have written a
> story in which any orc, any troll, or Shelob repented of evil and began
> doing good.
>
> Orcs, trolls, and Shelob, in THE HOBBIT/LORD OF THE RINGS, come across
> as irremediably "stuck" in evilness:
>
> something like "original sin" ...
>
> ... only more so, because religions that believe in "original sin"
> generally believe that people can get rid of their "original sin" by
> some process. Orcs/trolls/Shelob apparently don't have this option -
> conveniently for Tolkien and his heroes, who can kill orcs or whatever
> on sight with no moral qualms.
>
> (not just "shoot first, ask questions later" as in the cops-and-robbers
> or cowboy-story genres - more like "shoot first, because you don't even
> NEED to ask questions, ever. See orc, kill orc - case closed!")
The theology gets entangled.
1: It is believed, within the setting of Middle Earth, that orcs were
originally elves, warped by Morgoth. There's maybe a streak of
Lysenkoism in that theory, and it's not presented as a certainty.
2: It is known that different things happen to Elves and Men when they
die. This is significant in several of the stories told in The
Silmarillion -- Beren and Luthien for instance -- and what is known
within that World is that Elves return to the Undying Lands, while Men
just disappear to their own fate. There is an inference that Men have
souls, while Elves don't.
At this point, you start building your own structures. But it's
consistent with the text that Orcs, when killed, are released for a form
of redemption, something akin to Purgatory, or healing, being restored
to the Light of Valinor. And the death of an Elf isn't such a terrible
thing, for some of the same reasons. The point about Arwen is that she
is choosing the Fate of Men. She's not just choosing to die.
Trolls, who knows? Shelob is, it seems, a totally different sort of
creature, failing the "talks and builds a fire" test.
--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.
"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
Kate Gladstone
Please let me clarify that I reported, not endorsed,
the statement/viewpoint that
"the only good __________s are dead _________s"
[fill the blank with "German" or anything else].
Noting that a (wrong) belief exists
(and even noting that I found something similar in Tolkien)
does not equal acceptance or approval of that belief.
Kate Gladstone
> ... it's consistent with the text that Orcs, when killed, are released for a form
> of redemption, something akin to Purgatory, or healing, being restored
> to the Light of Valinor.
Thanks! That makes me feel a *lot* better!
Now I can once again enjoy Tolkien with a clear conscience.
John in Detroit
(The Silver Screen) You made it clear in the first message.
And I do agree.. Notice how many evil dudes in today's shows are Arabic?
It's another version of "Except for the names, and a few other changes"
as Mr. Diamond sang. Much the same story. The enemy of the day as it were.
I mean, it's not like we don't have home grown terrorists, Bush wishes
to renew and reinforce the Patriot act after all, the biggest terror in
my life is said act.
Oh, and in news of interest to many here....
I suspect that many BNF (Big Name Filkers) Keep passports handy but how
about the lessor lights who basically limit their travels to the US and
Canada? (Ok, so some of those are not all that "less" say a 9.9 on a
scale of 10, and some of the BNF's are not all that big either, say an 8
on the same scale, I will let others assign the specific ratings to the
specific filkers)
Very soon they are going to modify the entry requirements into the US so
you will need a passport. Going to be fun for me should I ever wish to
cross the border cause though I can go visit folks in Canada using only
my Driver's license, (Unless and until Canada says "Fine, if that's the
way it's going to be, then you need a passport to come here too!!) I
won't be able to return home w/o one.
To get a passport I need my birth cert. I'm adopted, this will be fun
(Ok, only half adopted, I do know where the cert is kept and have a
letter typed, I just haven't gotten around to writing the check)
I also know which court (10th dist, Michigan) did the adoption
But I guess I got a lot of paperwork to do... Stupid Presidink
Kate Gladstone wrote:
> Thanks, John, for the info.
>
> Please let me clarify that I reported, not endorsed,
> the statement/viewpoint that
> "the only good __________s are dead _________s"
> [fill the blank with "German" or anything else].
>
> Noting that a (wrong) belief exists
> (and even noting that I found something similar in Tolkien)
> does not equal acceptance or approval of that belief.
>
--
Fax Paladin
> Interestingly, though, Japanese superstitions/stereotypes about
> Burakunin have claimed that they *do* look or act exceedingly different,
> in "animal-like" ways. (e.g., claiming that the eyes of Burakunin
> reflect shimmers of red light at night, in the way that many animals'
> eyes do, and even - in the old days - claiming that Burakunin habitually
> walked around on all fours whenever unobserved by "normal" people) ...
> As far as anyone can find, no evidence exists that any such claims
> hold true ... making it sound as if people *wanted* to create or allege
> a physical difference (between themselves and a disfavored group) if
> they couldn't find an actual difference to point fingers at.
SPOILER WARNING for the graphic novel _Watchmen_
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
In my often-imagined, never-written-down _Watchmen_ screenplay, when the
villain explains his motivations at the climax I give him the deeper,
more general case than the stopping-the-Cold-War reason given in the
original. Basically: We're hard-wired to need enemies, as a corollary to
being social animals; if we don't have any we'll pick someone for the
job, a *them* against which to define *us*. At the start, it was a
survival trait, since the tribe over the hill really was out to kill us.
But as weapons became more and more efficient and humanity more and more
interdependent it was less and less a survival trait, and with modern
WMDs became an active threat to the survival of the entire species. Thus
the villain's plot: to *provide* an ogre, an enemy so radically
different from and threatening to mankind as to expose differences among
humans for the petty things they are - to trick humans into putting
aside their differences and working together, to buy time for humanity
to evolve past needing enemies before it self-destructs.
The troubles with that plan, of course, only *start* with it requiring
half of New York City to die...
Fax
--
a"} HAVE PUN, WILL TRAVEL |The Texas Filk Page
/_\ Fax Paladin, Waco |http://www.texasfilk.org
--------------------------
"It'll all work out." "HOW?!"
"I don't know -- it's a mystery."
Stoppard & Norman, "Shakespeare in Love"
Fax Paladin
> Re:
>
>
>>So, as you
>>note above, the state of being a giant is treated as an
>>implicit debit: ...
>
>
> ... much like "the state of being an orc or troll or giant sentient
> spider" in Tolkien - some other fantasy writer (LeGuin?) once commented
> that J. R. R. Tolkien could (or at least would) never have written a
> story in which any orc, any troll, or Shelob repented of evil and began
> doing good.
>
> Orcs, trolls, and Shelob, in THE HOBBIT/LORD OF THE RINGS, come across
> as irremediably "stuck" in evilness:
>
> something like "original sin" ...
>
> ... only more so, because religions that believe in "original sin"
> generally believe that people can get rid of their "original sin" by
> some process. Orcs/trolls/Shelob apparently don't have this option -
> conveniently for Tolkien and his heroes, who can kill orcs or whatever
> on sight with no moral qualms.
>
> (not just "shoot first, ask questions later" as in the cops-and-robbers
> or cowboy-story genres - more like "shoot first, because you don't even
> NEED to ask questions, ever. See orc, kill orc - case closed!")
>
The modern version: See stormtrooper, kill stormtrooper.
Why do you think we're not allowed to see their faces?
Joe Ellis
Gary McGath <garym@_MYLASTNAME_.com> wrote:
> There could be an interesting song speculating, or just raising
> questions, about the social and family lives of orcs. "What Does a
> Dorsai Do?" would be a possible model.
>
> The question which always comes to my mind is: Where are the female
> orcs? Perhaps males and females are indistinguishable to humans and they
> fight side by side. But then where are the children?
>
> Are there orc villages in Mordor? Or perhaps there are no "wild" orcs,
> and they all live in Sauron's barracks?
There simply aren't any of the above. The books imply (and the recent movies
show, for whatever that's worth) that they're "created" through magic as adults.
No females, no children.
>
> I once was in a Dragonquest game in which my character, in order to find
> vital information, allowed himself to be captured by orcs so he could
> negotiate with them. The negotiation worked.
Hmmm... Obviously not Tolkien orcs - he would have been negotiating their
digestive tracts. Remember, they EAT "manmeat"...
> Later our party became
> the governing body of a city, and an orc tribe appealed to us for
> recognition of their civil rights.
Phillip Mills
Gary McGath <garym@_MYLASTNAME_.com> wrote:
> Are there orc villages in Mordor?
A question I find very interesting since I have some scribbled notes for
a song which requires some form of answer in order for it to actually be
written.
> Or perhaps there are no "wild" orcs,
> and they all live in Sauron's barracks?
That seems unlikely given the amount of time and chaos since Melkor was
said to have started the breeding program. Also, there are comments in
the chronology talking about Sauron populating Mordor with "his
creatures" while various groups of orcs are described as being
elsewhere. Unless there was a later massive resettlement that I missed
(quite possible), surviving orcs would have been widely distributed.
I remember various grumblings of orcs while Sam and Frodo were among
them. I must re-read that section for clues.
--
Phillip Mills
Multi-platform software development
(416) 224-0714
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Joe Ellis
Gary McGath <garym@_MYLASTNAME_.com> wrote:
> In article
> <synthfilker-B554...@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com>,
> Joe Ellis <synth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > > The question which always comes to my mind is: Where are the female
> > > orcs? Perhaps males and females are indistinguishable to humans and they
> > > fight side by side. But then where are the children?
> > >
> > > Are there orc villages in Mordor? Or perhaps there are no "wild" orcs,
> > > and they all live in Sauron's barracks?
> >
> > There simply aren't any of the above. The books imply (and the recent
> > movies
> > show, for whatever that's worth) that they're "created" through magic as
> > adults.
> > No females, no children.
>
> That makes a kind of sense, at least for LOTR. But then who created the
> orcs of the Misty Mountains in _The Hobbit_, and for what purpose?
Leftovers from previous wars, I suspect...
>
> There are definitely "wild" trolls, anyway -- the trio in _The Hobbit_,
> and the one who "sat alone on his seat of stone" in LOTR (finally
> leading us back to a song).
These may well be leftovers, as well...
Fax Paladin
> In article <garym-A3DCE6....@news-out.mv.net>,
> Gary McGath <garym@_MYLASTNAME_.com> wrote:
>
>
>>There could be an interesting song speculating, or just raising
>>questions, about the social and family lives of orcs. "What Does a
>>Dorsai Do?" would be a possible model.
>>
>>The question which always comes to my mind is: Where are the female
>>orcs? Perhaps males and females are indistinguishable to humans and they
>>fight side by side. But then where are the children?
>>
>>Are there orc villages in Mordor? Or perhaps there are no "wild" orcs,
>>and they all live in Sauron's barracks?
>
>
> There simply aren't any of the above. The books imply (and the recent movies
> show, for whatever that's worth) that they're "created" through magic as adults.
> No females, no children.
Except (in the movies at least) those aren't regular orcs but Saruman's
hybrids, the Uruk-hai. And somewhere in there (in the Moria backstory?),
one orc chieftain is described as being the son of a previous chieftain.
Phillip Mills
<synthfilker-B554...@newsclstr01.news.prodigy.com>,
Joe Ellis <synth...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> In article <garym-A3DCE6....@news-out.mv.net>,
> Gary McGath <garym@_MYLASTNAME_.com> wrote:
>
> > The question which always comes to my mind is: Where are the female
> > orcs? Perhaps males and females are indistinguishable to humans and they
> > fight side by side. But then where are the children?
> >
> > Are there orc villages in Mordor? Or perhaps there are no "wild" orcs,
> > and they all live in Sauron's barracks?
>
> There simply aren't any of the above. The books imply (and the recent movies
> show, for whatever that's worth) that they're "created" through magic as
> adults.
> No females, no children.
From The Silmarillion, Chapter 3:
"Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the
Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor [...] by slow arts of cruelty
were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race
of Orcs [...] the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the
Children of Iluvatar"
Joel Polowin
> There simply aren't any of the above. The books imply (and the recent movies
> show, for whatever that's worth) that they're "created" through magic as adults.
> No females, no children.
I don't think that's correct. In _The Hobbit_, Gollum had "caught a
small goblin-imp. How it squeaked!" To me, this seems to refer to
a child.
--
Joel Polowin jpolow...@sympatico.ca but delete "XYZZy" from address
tea://grey.hot
Jeff Urs
> Except (in the movies at least) those aren't regular orcs but Saruman's
> hybrids, the Uruk-hai. And somewhere in there (in the Moria backstory?),
> one orc chieftain is described as being the son of a previous chieftain.
That'd be Gandalf's line when the goblins joined the Battle of
Five Armies in _The Hobbit_: "...Bolg, whose father you slew, O
Dain...", or something to that effect.
--
Jeff
thn...@yahoo.com
>A question I find very interesting since I have some scribbled
> notes for a song which requires some form of answer in order for
> it to actually be written.
I remember seeing a song called "The Orc-wife's Lament". Can any one
place it?
-- Mark A. Mandel, The Filker With No Nickname
http://filk.cracksandshards.com/
Now on the Filker's Bardic Webring!
[This text prepared with Dragon NaturallySpeaking.]
Estron
> Basically: We're hard-wired to need enemies, as a corollary to
> being social animals; if we don't have any we'll pick someone for the
> job, a *them* against which to define *us*.
I agree. here how I put it, a few years ago:
THE DIVISION GAME
by John Mitchell
Copyright 1998 by John Mitchell. All rights reserved.
CHORUS: Hey, let's play a game that's fun to do
Draw a line between me and you
It may be difficult, but, hey,
We'll split ourselves apart some way
Now wherever humans are, if they have to, they'll go far
To find a point of difference, from which to build a fence
And once that fence goes up, you see, there is a "they," there is a "we"
And when our groups are set up right, we can begin to fight (CHORUS)
The best of lines are plain to see, and you can't change them easily
The color that your skin appears -- we've used that one for years
Now we both have the same skin tone,
But what land did your folks call home?
If we have diff'rent ancestry, then you can't be like me (CHORUS)
It seems we're from the same old sod, so tell me if you worship God
If someone else receives your prayer, then that's enough right there
But you're a Christian, I am too -- we pray to Christ, who was a Jew
Hey, if you're Cath'lic, and I'm not, we can go on what we've got (CHORUS)
It's got to be we're not the same, for then I can have you to blame
For somehow keeping me away from what I could attain
Hey, let's invent a way to screen, we'll both be fans of pro sports teams
You root for someone else, that's great -- now I know whom to hate
CHORUS2: Oh, let's play a game that's fun to do
Drive a wedge between me and you
It may be difficult, but, hey,
What else is there to do today?
We'll split ourselves apart some way
--
Any opinions expressed above are only that, and are my own.
Pax vobiscum.
est...@tfs.net
Sugar Creek, Missouri