Peter Watts
JaneG
has fans in this group. When American border guards arrest, beat and
pepper spray an SF author returning to his home in Canada, it sets off
a lot of Internet discussion. Here's a place to start. Please
consider donating to his legal costs.
http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/11/dr-peter-watts-canad.html
Joe Kesselman
Already tossed him a few bucks, and an apology on behalf of the sane
Americans. Also told him that if the donations run over his legal costs,
he should feel free to route my contribution to the stray cat fund.
--
Joe Kesselman,
http://www.love-song-productions.com/people/keshlam/index.html
{} ASCII Ribbon Campaign | "may'ron DaroQbe'chugh vaj bIrIQbej" --
/\ Stamp out HTML mail! | "Put down the squeezebox & nobody gets hurt."
John from Detroit
Ok, from the berviety of this post I know this is not the full story.
Do you have a link to the full story (I am always interested, and from
what you have posted. I don't have enough info to form an opinion say
for "Say What?" so... Please, Say What. Thank you)
Mark Horning
> Do you have a link to the full story (I am always interested, and from
> what you have posted. I don't have enough info to form an opinion say
> for "Say What?" so... Please, Say What. Thank you)
I'm not certain anyone has the full story. As described there are
some inconsistencies, like why one would have to deal with US Border
Guards when "entering" Canada, as opposed to leaving. Having recently
visited CA I can say that the CA border folks were very pleasant and
professional and our folks were pretty rude and surly.
John Scalzi has a bit of a writeup here:
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2009/12/11/helping-out-peter-watts/
Lee Gold
> On Dec 16, 6:28 am, John from Detroit <So...@noaddress.net> wrote:
>
>> Do you have a link to the full story (I am always interested, and from
>> what you have posted. I don't have enough info to form an opinion say
>> for "Say What?" so... Please, Say What. Thank you)
>
> I'm not certain anyone has the full story. As described there are
> some inconsistencies, like why one would have to deal with US Border
> Guards when "entering" Canada, as opposed to leaving. Having recently
> visited CA I can say that the CA border folks were very pleasant and
> professional and our folks were pretty rude and surly.
On border crossing into and out of Canada, we have encountered some
delightful and polite Canadian Border Guards -- and some thoroughly
loathsome US Border Guards, whom we treated with groveling politeness
until they finally condescended to let us back into our native country.
Watts may not be accustomed to acting like a fifth class citizen, but
it's the only safe way to deal with an arrogant law enforcement official
who's got a gun.
You say, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Is there anything I can do to help?" And
you NEVER get out of the car without permission. You NEVER reach into a
pocket or open up a purse without permission. In fact, you NEVER do a
thing without permission.
--Lee
Joe Kesselman
> In fact, you NEVER do a thing without permission.
"Gotcha! I didn't say Simon Says, so you're under arrest..."
Rich Brown
credibility.
--
There's an apt-get for that.
Rich Brown -- rab -- Song Assasin -- FreeMars.org
Harold Groot
wrote:
Hmmmm.... I haven't done a whole lot of border crossing LATELY, but I
used to do a fair amount of it a while back (when Canada was in
reasonable driving distance for me). For the life of me, I can't
recall a single incident of unreasonable behavior by either the
Canadian =OR= the US border guards. Are my experiences really all
that different from those of everybody else?
Joe Kesselman
> Are my experiences really all
> that different from those of everybody else?
The whole "homeland[*] security" thing has given us less-qualified and
more-paranoid border guards. It really is different. Be warned: DO carry
your passport these days, or you may not be able to come back into the
States. And treat them with respect; they've largely lost their sense of
humor and perspective.
Of course police generally are more paranoid than they used to be. Time
was, getting out of the car and walking back toward the officer was a
sign of respect. These days they would much rather you stay in the car
so they can duck back out of the line of fire if necessary. Ideally,
they would prefer you also keep your hands on the dashboard where they
can be seen, but they won't tell you to do that unless they have
probable cause.
(A friend of mine was once in the awkward position of driving a rental
car that had been stolen and recovered, but which hadn't yet had all its
records updated; they treated him as armed and dangerous, which confused
the heck out of him until they figured out what had happened. They did
then have the grace to explain and apologize, admittedly. But that was
*before* the overreaction to 9/11; these days, I suspect he'd have been
at far more serious risk of being shot, or at least tazed.)
Canada seems to be a more civil society, wasn't _directly_ terrorized,
and didn't react in terror. I'd be willing to bet that their police
forces are still treating the public as innocent until proven guilty,
rather than suspect until proven innocent. So while it sounds like he
did make some fairly basic mistakes -- most notably, forgetting that
it's often easier to follow police directions first and complain after
they've satisfied themselves that you aren't a threat to them,
especially if they sound stressed out -- I'd bet that he really didn't
understand what he was getting into.
And of course that in no way excuses the overreaction by the border guards.
[* The phrase "homeland security" still drives me crazy. "Domestic" is
far more appropriate than "homeland" -- it's the traditional term, and
carries more appropriate connotations. I honestly think Shrub would have
used "fatherland" if someone hadn't stopped him.]
Joe Kesselman
> to me, e.g., whether I had a "green card for [my] keyboard." When I said
> I didn't know what that even meant, they didn't explain.
Two possibilities:
1) Occasionally, when there's something that they think may trigger
suspicions of undeclared purchases when you come back, the customs folks
will recommend that you get a receipt on the way in so you can prove it
wasn't purchased in Canada.
2) They may simply have been testing how you would react under a bit of
stress, trying to shake loose a bit more of an indication about whether
you were nervous or just uncomfortable. If so, you gave them exactly the
right answer.
Tip: Don't over-answer their questions; that comes across as nervous. I
made that mistake one time on the way into Canada, and they pulled us
over. Made us wait for a while with the "if you confess, it'll go easier
on you than if you make us work for it" pressure. Finally they tried
that one more time with "we're about to bring over the sniffer dogs" --
and my reaction of "Good; I like watching them work" apparently
convinced them that we were harmless after all.
(That was only the second time I'd been stopped. The first was the very
first time I drove up to FKO, when either my first-time nervousness or
the concept of "music festival" triggered a search. Or it may just have
been "check every Nth car whether you think it's needed or not, just to
keep both the guards and the public on their toes", which I know they've
sometimes done.)
JaneG
As described there are
> some inconsistencies, like why one would have to deal with US Border
> Guards when "entering" Canada, as opposed to leaving. Having recently
> visited CA I can say that the CA border folks were very pleasant and
> professional and our folks were pretty rude and surly.
>
legislation gives Homeland Security the right to challenge and detail
people regardless of which direction they are headed. As far as I
know, there is no equivalent Canadian legislation that would let a
Canadian border official detain an American on his or her way home.
Generally I find the border officials of both countries OK to deal
with, but the American ones keep telling me, rather rudely, that the
name on my passport is illegal and I must change it before
reentering. They do not accept that each country gets to set its own
laws about its own passports; they would like to apply US laws to all
foreigners and all foreign governments. Because of some old Scottish
custom, my family put my chosen name, the only one I have ever used,
the middle, and I've met hundreds of other people in that situation.
To avoid getting called by a name that is not mine, I shortened the
first name to an initial, and it appears that way on my driver's
licence, health card, passport, airline tickets, etc.
Rob Wynne
> (That was only the second time I'd been stopped. The first was the very
> first time I drove up to FKO, when either my first-time nervousness or
> the concept of "music festival" triggered a search. Or it may just have
> been "check every Nth car whether you think it's needed or not, just to
> keep both the guards and the public on their toes", which I know they've
> sometimes done.)
>
I posted this in my journal some years back, when I decided to pop over to
Canada for lunch while visiting my girlfriend in Detroit:
Saturday Morning: They stopped me right there and said...(Canadian Content)
I woke up Saturday bright and early, had a shower and went through my
morning rituals, and eventually was joined by Dave and Angie. We spent the
morning watching Catwoman with the sound off to see if it was less stupid
that way (Verdict: Not really, but it *is* more watchable), and an episode
of a program called "Cheap Seats" to determine if 30 year old pro wrestling
programs are more fun with MST3K style heckling (Verdict: Quite a bit.)
Eventually, Angie and I got ourselves in order and set out for the day's
big adventure, which was to pop across the bridge into Windsor, Ontario, so
that I could say that I'd properly been to Canada. (My previous brief stop
in that country doesn't count, since they wouldn't even let us off the
plane.) Everyone always says that the real trick isn't getting into Canada,
of course, but getting them to let you back into the US, but I had my
passport, just in case. We paid our toll and rolled up to the border guard,
who asked our intentions for coming to Canada. "Just coming over for lunch
and maybe some shopping," we said. "Well, have you ever been
fingerprinted?" "Sure," I said, ever truthful. "Have you ever been
arrested?" Now, the truth of the matter is, yes, I have. Over 10 years ago,
I bounced a cheque and, with one thing or another, forgot to go and pay it.
Six months after that, a nice sheriff came to my door to explain to me that
this sort of thing wasn't allowed and gave me a ride in his car to the
county jail, where I spent an hour or so waiting for my friend Craig to
bring me the $100 or so that I'd need to pay it all off. (the original
cheque was for less than $20.)
The guard looked at me suspiciously, and then gave us a yellow slip of
paper and instructed us to pull into the inspection station. So we pulled
over and parked, and a couple of very nice guard type people thoroughly
searched the car, perhaps to ensure we weren't trying to bring more bad
cheques into the country, and making us mighty grateful we'd gotten the
microwave out of the trunk before we made the trip. They then told us to go
see the nice immigration folks.
Now friends, there was only one of two reasons that the nice folks in
immigration would want to talk to us, and one was to give us honorary
Canadian citizenships for being so brave and honest to the border guard,
which we didn't expect, and the other was to yell at us for making them do
a bunch of extra paperwork just so we could have lunch in a foreign
country, which is what we expected, but when we got up to the window it
turned out there was a third possibility, because before we could say a
word they stopped me right there and said "Kid, have you ever been
arrested?" So I proceeded to tell them the story of the bad cheque
massacree and the three part harmony and they stopped me right there and
said "Kid, did you ever go to court?" So I told them story about the campus
cop and the failure-to-yield-at-the-nonexistent-stop-sign story and they
Stopped Me Right There and said "Kid, we want you to go sit on that bench
over there, marked Group W." So Angie and I went and sat on the bench and
had a good time playing with the pencils while they ran background checks
on us to make sure we weren't wanted international criminals sneaking over
the border to bother their women. Finally, the loudspeaker came to life and
said "Kid, come and get your passport" and we went back to the window and
the lady said "Welcome to Canada, have a nice day."
Having going through these ordeals just to get into the country, we were
determined that we weren't going to eat our lunch just anywhere, so we
drove for awhile. Like most fairly urban areas in other countries, it was a
curious mix of familiar and strange. We kept rejecting most of the
restaurants we passed, either for being too dubious (The Pita Pit?), or too
American. (I didn't go through that much hassle to cross the border to eat
at a Subway). We ended up at a little fish and chips shop near the river
called Sir Cedrics, which promised the best Fish and Chips on either side
of the border. I have no idea if that's true, but it was awfully darn good!
(Two signs of note: a church with the following message: "Our Lord In
Heaven, Please Send Us What You Know We Need Today". I commented "How
delightfully Canadian. ???Oh Lord, if it's not too much bother, just send
along whatever it was that you thought we might want. But only when it's
convenient. OK, thanks, bye." The other sign was an sex shop with a sign
out front advertising a "Condom blowout sale". Angie: "Doesn't really
inspire you with confidence in the product, does it?")
Being fed, we made a stop at the local mall, at which I snagged a bottle of
Canadian Tylenol, a book on the Beatles that I spotted at Cole's, and five
Arrogant Worms cds and a Barenaked Ladies DVD. This satisfied my desire to
buy some things I couldn't easily find back home, and, suitably impressed
with the country as a whole, we decided to head home.
Of course, given the our travails getting INTO Canada, we were prepared for
a real hassle on the way back. We took the tunnel this time, rather than
the bridge, because after nutmeg, variety is the spice of life. We pulled
up to the border and endured the following exchange:
"Whatcha bringin' back?"
"Some CDs"
"Have a nice day."
And we were back on native soil.
--
Rob Wynne / The Autographed Cat / d...@america.net
http://www.autographedcat.com/ / http://autographedcat.livejournal.com/
Gafilk 2010: Jan 8-10, 2010 - Atlanta, GA - http://www.gafilk.org/
Aphelion - Original SF&F since 1997 - http://www.aphelion-webzine.com/
Doug Wickström
<garym@_MYLASTNAME_.com> wrote:
>When I crossed into Canada at Port Huron in the nineties, taking a
>shortcut from Michigan to New York, the Canadian customs people were
>thoroughly polite, but were clearly determined to find something. They
>searched all through my car and asked questions which didn't make sense
>to me, e.g., whether I had a "green card for [my] keyboard." When I said
>I didn't know what that even meant, they didn't explain. Finally they
>let me through without objections.
A cachet. Basically, it's a pre-approved form from the
government of the country one is entering allowing one to bring
something in duty-free, provided it is then re-exported.
--
Doug Wickström
Wes Struebing
Groot) wrote:
<snip>
>
>Hmmmm.... I haven't done a whole lot of border crossing LATELY, but I
>used to do a fair amount of it a while back (when Canada was in
>reasonable driving distance for me). For the life of me, I can't
>recall a single incident of unreasonable behavior by either the
>Canadian =OR= the US border guards. Are my experiences really all
>that different from those of everybody else?
Don't know from personal experience, but it seems to be relatively
recent, Harold.
--
Wes Struebing
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America,
and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples,
promising liberty and justice for all.
Homepage: www.carpedementem.org
linkedin profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/wesstruebing
Rob Wynne
> In article <hgdl5r$fvo$1...@news.america.net>, Rob Wynne <d...@america.net>
>
>> Having going through these ordeals just to get into the country, we were
>> determined that we weren't going to eat our lunch just anywhere, so we
>> drove for awhile.
>
>
Well, we went half a mile past the railroad tracks and went round the back,
but all we found was a Canada Tire and a Tim Hortons. So with tears in our
eyes, we went off looking for another place to have a lunch (which couldn't
be beat).