What's that Lasso mass?
Todd Michel McComb
M. Schulter <msch...@value.net> wrote:
>The idea of a complete 16th-century Mass for only two voices seems
>a bit unusual to me
If there are any, it's news to me. I don't know the Simon & Garfunkel
piece at all.
>In contrast, _bicinia_ (two-voice compositions) for voices or
>instruments, including some complete liturgical pieces and many
>sections of longer works, seem to me very common.
Sure... there are many of these, especially sections of larger
works. Complete instrumental works in two voices, bicinia, are
certainly not ultra-rare, but I don't know about calling them
common... three parts was certainly much more common. Gibbons
wrote some good ones in the early 17th century in England.
Todd McComb
mcc...@medieval.org
Glenn Knickerbocker
& Garfunkel's "Benedictus," and whether the whole mass is in just two
voices? A friend of mine wants a similar setting of the entire Credo,
and the setting from the same mass would be ideal.
--Glenn
M. Schulter
: Anybody know where to find the Lasso mass that's the source for Simon
: & Garfunkel's "Benedictus," and whether the whole mass is in just two
: voices? A friend of mine wants a similar setting of the entire Credo,
: and the setting from the same mass would be ideal.
Hello, there, and this is just a first guess: please be ready to disregard
my incautious initial reaction.
In fact, Lasso wrote a series of motets for two voices which are complete
pieces in themselves, and beautiful ones. It was also common in Masses of
the Renaissance to have _some sections_ of a work for four or five voices,
say, set for two or three voices. Such sections evidently gave a special
opportunity to craft the individual lines and to display contrapuntal
mastery, as well as providing variety of vocal "instrumentation."
From my recollection of the Simon and Garfunkel piece, I'd be tempted to
guess that it could be such a duo section from a Mass for a larger number
of voices. I'm trying to remember if the final "Hosanna in excelsis" was
included, and don't immediately recall it; this would be a place where
typically the full choral forces could join for the conclusion.
The idea of a complete 16th-century Mass for only two voices seems a bit
unusual to me, but maybe this remark might prompt lots of more
knowledgeable people to offer telling examples. In contrast, _bicinia_
(two-voice compositions) for voices or instruments, including some
complete liturgical pieces and many sections of longer works, seem to me
very common. Thus my guess above.
Most respectfully,
Margo Schulter
msch...@value.net
Adam Ross
> Anybody know where to find the Lasso mass that's the source for Simon
> & Garfunkel's "Benedictus," and whether the whole mass is in just two
> voices? A friend of mine wants a similar setting of the entire Credo,
> and the setting from the same mass would be ideal.
>
> --Glenn
I used to listen to lots of S & G when I was little, but I don't recall
this piece called "Benedictus" -- care to fill me in which album this was
on? Thanks.
Adam
Seattle, WA, USA
Todd Michel McComb
M. Schulter <msch...@value.net> wrote:
>The piece we're discussing is a two-voice _Benedictus_ setting
>which seemed more or less in 16th-century style.
It it really 3 parts, by any chance, i.e. 2 voices and a less
noticeable instrumental support?
>I should comment here that my "for voices or instruments" was
>intended somewhat in the Elizabethan sense "songs for voyces or
>viols," and refers for example to some of the two-part settings
>of popular French chansons whose ornamental runs _could_ lend them
>to instrumental performance, although by no means excluding a vocal
>performance.
Yes, that's what I thought you meant... but I am not familiar with
these French chansons. I know many, many 2-voice sections in larger
works, but an entire body of 2-voice songs with text? Do tell.
Todd McComb
mcc...@medieval.org
M. Schulter
: In article <7bvnos$7mg$1...@vnetnews.value.net>,
: M. Schulter <msch...@value.net> wrote:
: >The idea of a complete 16th-century Mass for only two voices seems
: >a bit unusual to me
: If there are any, it's news to me. I don't know the Simon & Garfunkel
: piece at all.
Maybe I had that album around 1970 or so; it had a song called _He was My
Brother_ or the like, and another called something like _Wednesday
Morning, 3 A.M._. The piece we're discussing is a two-voice _Benedictus_
setting which seemed more or less in 16th-century style. While I don't
recall mention of a period source at that time, Lasso wouldn't surprise
me.
: Sure... there are many of these, especially sections of larger
: works. Complete instrumental works in two voices, bicinia, are
: certainly not ultra-rare, but I don't know about calling them
: common... three parts was certainly much more common. Gibbons
: wrote some good ones in the early 17th century in England.
Maybe I should comment here that my "for voices or instruments" was
intended somewhat in the Elizabethan sense "songs for voyces or viols,"
and refers for example to some of the two-part settings of popular French
chansons whose ornamental runs _could_ lend them to instrumental
performance, although by no means excluding a vocal performance.
There is one famous collection of instrumental _bicinia_ which does come
to mind: _Music for Two_ (_Musica duorum_), by Eustachio Romano (Roma,
1521), edited by Hans David, Howard Mayer Brown, and Edward E. Lowinsky.
I'd agree that three-part instrumental works seem much more common.
Most appreciatively,
Margo Schulter
msch...@value.net
Glenn Knickerbocker
wrote:
>I used to listen to lots of S & G when I was little, but I don't recall
>this piece called "Benedictus" -- care to fill me in which album this was
>on? Thanks.
"Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M."
M. Schulter
: It it really 3 parts, by any chance, i.e. 2 voices and a less
: noticeable instrumental support?
Hello, and that's an _excellent_ question. Trying to recall the piece, I
wouldn't rule that out, and I can see how it would be possible to listen
to a section of the kind you describe and mainly notice the two voices.
: Yes, that's what I thought you meant... but I am not familiar with
: these French chansons. I know many, many 2-voice sections in larger
: works, but an entire body of 2-voice songs with text? Do tell.
It's a pleasure to share what I have, edited in two modern publications:
First is what one modern edition describes as "a collection of
twenty-eight 'Canzoni francese a due voci' (Venice, 1539), composed by the
publisher Antoine Gardane, among others, 'to sing and play.'" Seven of
these are transcribed in Joel Newman, ed., American Recorder Society
Editions No. 81: _French Chansons for Two Recorders (S, A, or T) and/or
Two Voices (Galaxy Music, New York, 1974).
The other modern collection is selected from a two-volume anthology
published by "Martin Luther's friend Georg Rhau of Wittenberg ... _Bicinia
Gallica, Latina, Germanica_ [French, Latin, and German Duets], of 1545..."
This is Gordon J. Kinney, ed., _Renaissance for Two: 16th Century Bicinia
Gallica, Alto-Tenor, Alto Duet, H-88 (Hargail Music Press, New York.
1973).
Additionally, A-R Editions has a nice full volume of bicinia, many of them
sacred Latin settings, as part of their series on Renaissance music.
Some of the French chansons a2 have been performed in recordings of this
genre, sometimes to show the various arrangements possible for a popular
tune. Also, a two-voice version of _Ces facheux sots_ is performed as a
kind of prelude to a Mass by Francesco Layolle based on this melody --
both beautiful works.
There are also a number of bicinia settings of early Lutheran hymns which
I've seen in anthologies of the period.
clerks
the Missa Venatorum): a short 4 voice mass which was apparently designed
for those occasions when the good Duke wanted to get through mass quickly
and get out to hunt. There is a recording by Christ Church, Oxford, on
Nimbus (I'm not sure if it is still current.)
Adam Ross <mad...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<Pine.A41.4.05.990308...@dante35.u.washington.edu>...
Glenn Knickerbocker
>The Benedictus comes from the Missa Octavi Toni
Aha, thanks! I've definitely seen references to recordings of that, and
presumably a score won't be hard to find.
> a short 4 voice mass
Short is good, since she wants the entire Credo setting! Now to go find
it and see if it's as easily adapted to trio sonata texture as the
Benedictus.
Thank you very much!
^R http://members.aol.com/notr/dreams.poems.html
"They must be mad. They sing choruses in public!"
Justin Lewis-Anthony
>
> The Benedictus comes from the Missa Octavi Toni by Lassus (also known as
> the Missa Venatorum): a short 4 voice mass which was apparently designed
> for those occasions when the good Duke wanted to get through mass quickly
> and get out to hunt. There is a recording by Christ Church, Oxford, on
> Nimbus (I'm not sure if it is still current.)
>
available on Nimbus CD NI 5150, along with Missa Qual donna, Tristis est
anima mea, Exaltabo te Domine & De Profundis clamavi & Cipriano de
Rore's Madrigal.
--
Justin Lewis-Anthony
Precentor, <mailto:justin.lew...@christ-church.ox.ac.uk>
Christ Church Cathedral, Oxford
Dennis Cook
>The Benedictus comes from the Missa Octavi Toni by Lassus (also known as
>the Missa Venatorum): a short 4 voice mass which was apparently designed
>for those occasions when the good Duke wanted to get through mass quickly
>and get out to hunt. There is a recording by Christ Church, Oxford, on
>Nimbus (I'm not sure if it is still current.)
>
Whilst I would not want to question the wisdom of "clerks" (Mr.
Wickham, is that you?) the Lassus mass that comes to mind w.r.t. a two
part Benedictus is "Frère Thibault", available in a typically mediocre
edition by Novello.
regds,
Dennis
--
http://www.dcook.dircon.co.uk
"Maledictus qui bibet amittet vestes."
Glenn Knickerbocker
wrote:
>On 9 Mar 1999 09:00:11 GMT, "clerks" <cle...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>>The Benedictus comes from the Missa Octavi Toni by Lassus (also known as
>>the Missa Venatorum)
>Wickham, is that you?) the Lassus mass that comes to mind w.r.t. a two
>part Benedictus is "Frère Thibault"
Wait! You're both right!
I found a recording of the Missa Venatorum, and it includes "the"
Benedictus, with a choral Hosanna in triple meter following it--but that
recording omitted the Credo, which is the part I need! So I went hunting
through the collected works edition in the Vassar library. No Octavi
Toni, no Venatorum. In some library catalogue I had found a listing for
an Octavi Toni also known as "Puisque j'ay perdu." I did find "Puis que
i'ay perdu" but it was a nearly exact parody, so I doubt it has anything
to do with the eighth tone. Then I noticed, after all the appendices and
parody models in the last volume, two more masses, one of which was Octavi
Toni, but that wasn't it either.
I kept poking through the early masses looking for any other suitable
Credo, and there was quite a bunch of them with Benedictus duets followed
by triple-meter Hosanna choruses. One of those was indeed Frere Thibault.
But I spotted another very short, simple Credo that I thought might fit my
needs (I have to reduce it to an a cappella duet). In that mass, listed
as "Missa in imitationem moduli Iager," there was also a two-part
Benedictus, but with no Hosanna.
Only when I got my photocopies home and looked over them again did I
realize that that was "the" Benedictus! I didn't copy the whole mass, but
the endings of the Gloria and Sanctus, at least, matched the Venatorum.
The collected works edition listed the "Iager" (is that maybe a German
composer's name, Jaeger?) as being from 1560; the recording of the
Venatorum says "early 1570s." I wonder if the Hosanna was added later, or
if the two just had different sources and one is inaccurate.
Well, whatever its true origin, at least I have the Credo I need!
¬R Plus meditandum, minus misculandum.
(Marty Shapiro, deftly translated by Sean Fitzpatrick)