did you really play a tromba marina like this?
Jack Campin - bogus address
http://www.henrystrobel.com/saintboniface/singing.jpg
Unless you were unbound by earthly gravity and the middle of a tight
throng of fellow seraphim I can't imagine why you'd want to play a
tromba marina at that angle. Did mortals ever do it that way?
==== j a c k at c a m p i n . m e . u k === <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts
bill
stage was tiny - pay was nothin'.
On Dec 24, 1:29 pm, Jack Campin - bogus address
John Howell
>
>Unless you were unbound by earthly gravity and the middle of a tight
>> throng of fellow seraphim I can't imagine why you'd want to play a
> > tromba marina at that angle. Did mortals ever do it that way?
> >
As a matter of fact I just recently (December 5th) saw the Waverly
Consort's Christmas program, and their tromba marina was played in
almost that same position, although resting on the player's shoulder.
They did not attempt to touch the harmonics, but used only the open
strings both as a drone and, later on in an excerpt from the Play of
Herod and the Slaying of the Innocents, by overdriving the strings
for a really nasty sound. Quite effective in both usages. And I
have also heard them use it in a similar way in a Roman de Fauvel
program.
What a lovely picture, although a highly unlikely combination of both
haut and bas instruments. But with angels, you never can tell!
John
--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:John....@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
"We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
Arthur Ness
news:mailman.262.123013...@wu-wien.ac.at...
|> > http://www.henrystrobel.com/saintboniface/singing.jpg
| >
| >Unless you were unbound by earthly gravity and the middle of a tight
| >> throng of fellow seraphim I can't imagine why you'd want to play a
| > > tromba marina at that angle. Did mortals ever do it that way?
| > >
|
| As a matter of fact I just recently (December 5th) saw the Waverly
| Consort's Christmas program, and their tromba marina was played in
| almost that same position, although resting on the player's shoulder.
| They did not attempt to touch the harmonics, but used only the open
| strings both as a drone and, later on in an excerpt from the Play of
| Herod and the Slaying of the Innocents, by overdriving the strings
I don't understand. Doesn't a tromba marina have just one string? By the
way, does anyone know what is meant in Vivaldi RV 588** by "violini in
tromba marina." Do they play harmonics?
**Concerto [C major RV 588] con 2 flauti, 2 salm[chalumeau?]'o 2 violini
in tromba
marini, 2 mandolini, 2 tiorbe, violincello e archi
AJN (Bosron)
Arthur Ness
there.
--
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Mozart's
Serenade No. 11 in E flat, K. 375, performed
by the Ensemble á Vent Français
Bordeaux Aquitaine,
Michel Arrignon, conductor.
To download, click on the CML link here
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
My Web Page: Scores
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Other Matters:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/musexx/
===================================
"Arthur Ness" <arthu...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:2Xr5l.1367$BC4....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
John Howell
>"John Howell" <John....@vt.edu> wrote in message
>news:mailman.262.123013...@wu-wien.ac.at...
>|> > http://www.henrystrobel.com/saintboniface/singing.jpg
>| >
>| >Unless you were unbound by earthly gravity and the middle of a tight
>| >> throng of fellow seraphim I can't imagine why you'd want to play a
>| > > tromba marina at that angle. Did mortals ever do it that way?
>| > >
>|
>| As a matter of fact I just recently (December 5th) saw the Waverly
>| Consort's Christmas program, and their tromba marina was played in
>| almost that same position, although resting on the player's shoulder.
>| They did not attempt to touch the harmonics, but used only the open
>| strings both as a drone and, later on in an excerpt from the Play of
>| Herod and the Slaying of the Innocents, by overdriving the strings
>| for a really nasty sound. <<snip>>
>
>I don't understand. Doesn't a tromba marina have just one string?
According to one source I Googled: "The measurements of the tromba
marina varied considerably, as did also the shape of the body and the
number of strings. An octave string, half the length of the melody
string, and even two more, respectively the twelfth and the double
octave, not resting on the bridge but acting as sympathetic strings,
were sometimes added to improve the timbre by strengthening the pure
harmonic tones without increasing the blare due to the action of the
bridge."
It is indeed normally thought of as a monochord, but do NOT expect
standardization in medieval instruments! It didn't exist. As for
the one I saw (and heard), I was sitting in the back row and could
not tell whether there was one string or more.
The usual questions involve "why"! My guess--and it is no more than
that--is that its similarity to what a trumpet could play led to its
use at a time when trumpets were reserved to the use of royalty or
the nobility, especially since early trumpets were relatively quiet
and the tromba marina can be bowed fairly vigorously.
>By the
>way, does anyone know what is meant in Vivaldi RV 588** by "violini in
>tromba marina." Do they play harmonics?
>
>**Concerto [C major RV 588] con 2 flauti, 2 salm[chalumeau?]'o 2 violini
>in tromba
>marini, 2 mandolini, 2 tiorbe, violincello e archi
Unfortunately I don't know the work. If I could see the score I
could make an educated guess, but my first guess would be that yes,
it may well involve the playing of harmonics. That isn't obvious
though, given the choice of recorders, chalumeaux, OR violini.
Brian Link
I wonder how often we're led astray by iconography generated by
fanciful artists. I can certainly envision a painter who's seen these
instruments, but never a performance, who decides to use his
imagination to render how they might be played.
BLink
--------------------------
"The worst thing about censorship is [redacted]"
John Howell
>
>I wonder how often we're led astray by iconography generated by
>fanciful artists. I can certainly envision a painter who's seen these
>instruments, but never a performance, who decides to use his
>imagination to render how they might be played.
Hi, Brian. There's also a distinct possibility that there are layers
of meaning or subtleties that would have been clear to the artists of
the time, but are completely unknown to us. Literal depiction was
not their goal. (It's so hard to get angels to sit for portraits!)
But yes, artists can be sloppy. That's one caveat about the many
illustrations in the Cantigas de Sancta Maria. Not only can we not
assume that those particular instruments had anything to do with the
music they're illustrating, but we also can't assume that the
artist(s?) actually saw any particular combination of instruments
being played together as illustrated. In fact the earlier we go, the
less we know!
Arthur Ness
mis-read the instrumentation. There's no "o" there. So its flutes,
chalumeau and violins in tromba marina. I too must look at the score.
Perhaps a solution will come to mind. I downloaded a CD, but they use
guitars instead of mandolins, and I can't tell quite what else is playing.
Or at least I can't hear what should be the violins in tromba marina.
Heard a "Best of Vivaldi" CD. Musically it is a very good work.
===================================
"John Howell" <John....@vt.edu> wrote in message
news:mailman.267.123040...@wu-wien.ac.at...
Arthur Ness
Thank you for the information which has long eluded me. I am going to
order the CD you mention, which seems to be unusual in that it uses
trombas marinas. Many of the available CDs (about a dozen) do not specify
instruments used. It is a fine Vivaldi work, and I look forward to
hearing it.
=====AJN (Boston, Mass.)=====
This week's free download from Classical Music Library is Mozart's
Serenade No. 11 in E flat, K. 375, performed
by the Ensemble á Vent Français
Bordeaux Aquitaine,
Michel Arrignon, conductor.
To download, click on the CML link here
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
My Web Page: Scores
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/
Other Matters:
http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/
http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/musexx/
===================================
"Terry" <bo...@clown.invalid> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C57F28C9...@news.tpg.com.au...
| On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 07:19:03 +1100, Arthur Ness wrote
| (in article <XaR5l.1582$BC4...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>):
|
| > Thank you, John. I didn't realize they came with multiple strings. I
| > mis-read the instrumentation. There's no "o" there. So its flutes,
| > chalumeau and violins in tromba marina. I too must look at the score.
| > Perhaps a solution will come to mind. I downloaded a CD, but they use
| > guitars instead of mandolins, and I can't tell quite what else is
playing.
| > Or at least I can't hear what should be the violins in tromba marina.
| > Heard a "Best of Vivaldi" CD. Musically it is a very good work.
| > ===================================
|
| "Vivaldiąs Con(cer)to Con molti Istrom(en)ti, RV 558, uses eleven
concertante
| instruments: two violins łin tromba marina˛, two chalumeaux, two flutes
and
| one cello, plus two mandolins and two theorbos. In 1790 the chapel of
the
| Pieta still owned two violins łdetti servono per trombe marine simili˛.
These
| were presumably doctored instruments with an asymmetric bridge which
would
| vibrate freely, capable of resonating with that particular rattling
sound
| which characterized the tromba manna, the archaic single-string bowed
| instrument."
|
| (the above extracted from an essay by Toussaint Loviko, accompanying the
| Virgin Veritas recording by Fabio Biondi and Europa Galante)
| --
| Cheers!
|
| Terry
|
Arthur Ness
Thanks again. I must have mis-read your last message. Sorry! Thank you for
the YouTube reference. I have found it (them!). It is nice to be able to
preview it.
It is a much better performance than the one I downloaded for a number of
reason. One of which is that the piece was mislabeled, and it is NOT RV
558.<shudder> No wonder the mandolins sounded like guitars. I thought it
was an attempt to make "The Best of Vivaldi" more palatable.
Arthur
=============================================
"Terry" <bo...@clown.invalid> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C582FC9D...@news.tpg.com.au...
| On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:53:14 +1100, Arthur Ness wrote
| (in article <Kpd6l.1847$BC4....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>):
|
| > Dear Terry!
| >
| > Thank you for the information which has long eluded me. I am going to
| > order the CD you mention, which seems to be unusual in that it uses
| > trombas marinas. Many of the available CDs (about a dozen) do not
specify
| > instruments used. It is a fine Vivaldi work, and I look forward to
| > hearing it.
|
| <snip>
|
| ... but it *doesn't* use trombas marina! As I mentioned, Vivaldi's score
| calls for "violini in tromba marina", which seems to mean violins that
have
| been doctored to produce a sound reminiscent of the tromba marina.
|
| Anyway, I feel sure you'll enjoy the performances. By the way, if you
are of
| a mind to do some searching around on YouTube, there is a video clip of
this
| performance.
| --
| Cheers!
|
| Terry
|