a Karamazov documentary
Roman Turovsky
albert landa
"Roman Turovsky" <r.tur...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:B6UWk.838$QX3...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-8-RiLJa7Y
>
> RT
What a lovely little doco! He is a great artist but why on earth does he
associate with such awful mediocrities like "Sting" (ridiculous name!)?
Is this just for career advancement, or does he really believe that HIS
artistry goes well with this sort of "singing"? For me this sort of
association simply degrades his work and leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
Incidentally, is Karamazov Russian or Ukrainian? Not that it matters in the
least.Just curious.
albert landa
>
>
Roman Turovsky
"albert landa" <alber...@dodo.com.au>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-8-RiLJa7Y
>> RT
>
> What a lovely little doco! He is a great artist but why on earth does he
> associate with such awful mediocrities like "Sting" (ridiculous name!)?
think of his style.
> Is this just for career advancement, or does he really believe that HIS
> artistry goes well with this sort of "singing"?
I for one have nothing against his singing as far as Dowland is concerned.
It is a lot better than any silly professional countertenor out there who
abuses Elisabethan song, and Sting's unoperatic approach is quite
appropriate for the material.
> For me this sort of association simply degrades his work and leaves a bad
> taste in the mouth.
>
> Incidentally, is Karamazov Russian or Ukrainian? Not that it matters in
> the least.Just curious.
>
> albert landa
He is Bosnian.
RT
howard posner
On Nov 25, 2008, at 5:30 PM, albert landa wrote:
What a lovely little doco! He is a great artist but why on earth does he
associate with such awful mediocrities like "Sting" (ridiculous name!)?
Is this just for career advancement, or does he really believe that HIS
artistry goes well with this sort of "singing"? For me this sort of
association simply degrades his work and leaves a bad taste in the
mouth.
I know. Dreadful, isn't it? Like recording Bach on a modern piano.
Incidentally, is Karamazov Russian or Ukrainian? Not that it matters
in the
least.Just curious.
Bosnian.
albert landa
>
> "albert landa" <alber...@dodo.com.au>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-8-RiLJa7Y
>>> RT
>>
>> What a lovely little doco! He is a great artist but why on earth does he
>> associate with such awful mediocrities like "Sting" (ridiculous name!)?
> Sting is no mediocrity. He is a fine misician, regardless of what we might
> think of his style.
I must confess that I know next to nothing about "Sting" His "singing" on
that You Tube doco was abysmal and in my opinion was totally lacking in
musicianship, not to mention intonation.He is,in my opinion. a total
mediocrity, and I hate his commercialism.In fact, I hate everything he
stands for.
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
>
> I must confess that I know next to nothing about "Sting" His "singing" on
> that You Tube doco was abysmal and in my opinion was totally lacking in
> musicianship, not to mention intonation.He is,in my opinion. a total
> mediocrity, and I hate his commercialism.In fact, I hate everything he
> stands for.
Couldn't we save that level of venom for some worthy politician? Yes,
you could say he's slumming. Yes, his lute recording is something of a
vanity project. But getting some face time for Dowland (and Karamazov!)
can't be all bad!
Steve
>>
>>> Is this just for career advancement, or does he really believe that HIS
>>> artistry goes well with this sort of "singing"?
>> I for one have nothing against his singing as far as Dowland is concerned.
>> It is a lot better than any silly professional countertenor out there who
>> abuses Elisabethan song, and Sting's unoperatic approach is quite
>> appropriate for the material.
>>
>>
>>> For me this sort of association simply degrades his work and leaves a bad
>>> taste in the mouth.
>>>
>>> Incidentally, is Karamazov Russian or Ukrainian? Not that it matters in
>>> the least.Just curious.
>>>
>>> albert landa
>> He is Bosnian.
>> RT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
dewach...@gmail.com
dewach...@gmail.com
Why don't you two get a room? Or better yet Trovosky, try peddling
your love affair with Karamazov, and all things Russian on the lute
list. Or better yet, move to Moscow this winter.
Albert, you'll be right at home on the lute list lots of opinionated
Sting haters over there! They all have a fear of success (that's why
they play the lute) and like you, most of them hate Sting because he
makes lots of money and gets laid a lot, an unfamiliar concept to most
lute players. The illustrious Robert Barto of course being the
exception to the rule.
Have fun you two!
Steve Freides
news:492ca6bf$0$15177$c30e...@pit-reader.telstra.net...
Sting, with the Police, is legendary stuff and rightly so - innovative,
idiosyncratic, well composed songs very well performed. A Police album
would be right up there on my short list of "if you could only take one
rock 'n' roll CD to a desert island." Many of Sting's subsequent solo
efforts are first-rate as well, IMHO, judged on their own terms, of
course.
I don't care for his Dowland but I don't think he'd be offended by
knowing that. :) It is what it is, a man famous in one genre trying his
hand at another because he enjoys it and fame has afforded him the
luxury of doing so. No one said it was supposed to be great art, and
IMHO, it certainly is not. That it gets classical music, in this case
Dowland, a wider exposure is a good thing and to be applauded. That it
gets music discussed in rec.music.early a wider exposure is even more
laudable.
Not to mention the fact that how many of us would ever have even _heard_
of this lute player had it not been for his association with Sting?
Think of how many people have heard a lute for the time in their lives
because of this project.
If Sting wants to record medieval chant, Brahms, or anything in between,
that's fine with me, too. I can't promise I'll buy it, but can promise
I won't criticize it for not being something it's not trying to be.
-S-
dsi1
> albert landa wrote:
>>
>> I must confess that I know next to nothing about "Sting" His "singing"
>> on that You Tube doco was abysmal and in my opinion was totally
>> lacking in musicianship, not to mention intonation.He is,in my
>> opinion. a total mediocrity, and I hate his commercialism.In fact, I
>> hate everything he stands for.
>
> Couldn't we save that level of venom for some worthy politician?
> Yes, you could say he's slumming. Yes, his lute recording is something
> of a vanity project. But getting some face time for Dowland (and
> Karamazov!) can't be all bad!
>
Face time is right. The reality is that most folks never heard a lute or
J. Dowland before Songs From the Labyrinth. Personally, I ain't a fan or
the lute or Dowland or Sting. :-)
Mark & Steven Bornfeld
I'm a fan of all three, though getting into Dowland actually took a
while. I haven't heard Sting's recording--just one or two pieces.
Steve
albert landa
"Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote in message
news:6p5f54F...@mid.individual.net...
One thing that has emerged from this discussion is that that song that
"Sting" sings on that little doco, you know, where he sings that ascending
phrase ending with "I die" ( I have temporarily forgotten its title) is
utterly divine, and has made me want to rush out and buy a Dowland disc, but
sung by a real singer.Any suggestions?
albert landa
>
>
Roman Turovsky
RT
"GR" <guitarr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2008112621281016807-guitarromancer@gmailcom...
> On Nov 26, 4:34 pm, "albert landa" <albert37...@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>
>> One thing that has emerged from this discussion is that that song that
>> "Sting" sings on that little doco, you know, where he sings that
>> ascending
>> phrase ending with "I die" ( I have temporarily forgotten its title) is
>> utterly divine, and has made me want to rush out and buy a Dowland disc,
>> but
>> sung by a real singer. Any suggestions?
>>
>> albert landa
>>
>>
>
> No suggestions at all because you won't be able to find a "real singer"
> other than Sting performing this song on CD anytime soon, you see I think
> your hearing needs a little repair, there is no phrase ending with the
> words "I die" in that song that Sting and Karamazov perform together
> onstage in this little doco which is actually a promo for Karamazov's
> first solo/new Decca release "A Lute Is A Song"
>
> Here are the lyrics to the first phrase -
>
> Alone with my thoughts this evening
> I walked on the banks of Tyne
> I wondered how I could win you
> Or if I could make you mine
> Or if I could make you mine
>
> Now if that were your only hearing problem it wouldn't be so bad but this
> song titled "I Was Brought To My Senses" (Alone With My Thoughts This
> Evening) which you very generously call "utterly divine" is not written by
> John Dowland but by Sting himself! (music & lyrics) it first appeared on
> Sting's recording "Mercury Falling" released in 1996.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_Falling
>
> Sting is merely rehashing this song which sounds slightly Elizabethan &
> "Dowlandesque" (mainly in its intro verses) into a lute and voice arr..
>
> So now all the trash-talking about Sting which you've unfairly spewed up
> in this thread is reduced to nothing because of your ignorance - Go get
> some musical history awareness of both Dowland and Sting & put some real
> ears on you and listen much more perceptively in the future.
>
> If you with your presently questionable ears consider a Sting song
> "utterly divine" don't you think a musician of Karamzov's stature would at
> least think the same and possibly even perform with its composer?
>
> So the thing that has really emerged from this discussion is that
> Karamazov has suffered nothing with his collaborations with Sting but that
> YOU have suffered by not knowing what you're talking about and in the
> process have unfairly maligned two great musicians of different musical
> styles sharing their talents together.
>
>
> GR
>
dsi1
I learned a couple of Dowland pieces when I started lessons. They're ok
pieces - some folks might consider them fun. The bass lines are
different from the Bach and modern implementations that we're used to
and what the heck - how bad could a piece about a lady's puffe be? :-)
Problem is that I'm not real simpatico with the polished wine and cheese
crowd that this type of music is so right for and cannot get into it
without feeling like a fake. To add to that, I have always been thwarted
by the pull-offs and the hammer-ons in the pieces. They always come off
sounding pansy and not crisp enough... just a slushy mess.
Edin is as pure a musician that has ever lived, eh? There seems to be an
invasion of Eastern European musicians to the west - they're bringing
their old world instruments to the new world. How strange.
>
> Steve
>
albert landa
"dsi1" <ds...@spamworld.com> wrote in message news:ggln7q$rp9$1...@aioe.org...
> Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>>> Face time is right. The reality is that most folks never heard a lute or
>>> J. Dowland before Songs From the Labyrinth. Personally, I ain't a fan or
>>> the lute or Dowland or Sting. :-)
>>
>>
>> I'm a fan of all three, though getting into Dowland actually took a
>> while. I haven't heard Sting's recording--just one or two pieces.
>
> I learned a couple of Dowland pieces when I started lessons. They're ok
> pieces - some folks might consider them fun. The bass lines are different
> from the Bach and modern implementations that we're used to and what the
> heck - how bad could a piece about a lady's puffe be? :-)
>
> Problem is that I'm not real simpatico with the polished wine and cheese
Polished wine?? I dunno.I know this skin-head who rides a Harley Davidson
and he really gets off on early Elizabethan music.Oh, and he really loves
wine and is quite a conoisseur of cheese.An amazing character!
albert landa
dsi1
>>
>> Problem is that I'm not real simpatico with the polished wine and cheese
>
> Polished wine?? I dunno.I know this skin-head who rides a Harley Davidson
> and he really gets off on early Elizabethan music.Oh, and he really loves
> wine and is quite a conoisseur of cheese.An amazing character!
I'm not too simpatico with Harley riding skin-heads either, but then
again, don't we all know a semi-scary Harley dude that digs sissy stuff?
Of course, if he loves that type of music, you can be sure that he's
"into" wine - that's part of the job description. :-)
Have a good Thanksgiving - that is, if you celebrate this great American
holiday in Oz - you probably don't but just in case...
>
> albert landa
>
albert landa
"dsi1" <ds...@spamworld.com> wrote in message news:gglsjf$ip5$1...@aioe.org...
Thank you for your good wishes.I'm sure all the American ex-pats out here
will be celebrating your Thanksgiving.Incidentally just what are the
"thanks" being given for? Also, I don't wish to appear obtuse.It's really
just curiosity, but exactly what do you have against wine and cheese?
albert landa
dsi1
>
> Thank you for your good wishes.I'm sure all the American ex-pats out here
> will be celebrating your Thanksgiving.Incidentally just what are the
> "thanks" being given for? Also, I don't wish to appear obtuse.It's really
> just curiosity, but exactly what do you have against wine and cheese?
>
> albert landa
>
My guess is that every new colony in a strange new land will reach a
point where it seems they'll survive - at least for another year. I'll
bet that most early settlements in inhospitable climes did not survive.
The celebration of a successful harvest is probably common to most
cultures - the early colonists were thankful that they were probably not
going to die. I say that entirely reasonable. It does seem slightly odd
that we celebrate Thanksgiving - our food supply is pretty reliable. I
mean it's not like I go to the market around harvest time and notice a
sudden abundance of foods and feel relief that I'm not going to die of
starvation for a while.
I've nothing against wine and cheese, these are just foods. I just can't
fully appreciate folks that like to sort and classify foods as pastime.
It seems like such an odd thing to do - it probably also mean that
they've got a lot of time on their hands. Does that make me an evil
person? :-)
GR
> One thing that has emerged from this discussion is that that song that
> "Sting" sings on that little doco, you know, where he sings that ascending
> phrase ending with "I die" ( I have temporarily forgotten its title) is
> utterly divine, and has made me want to rush out and buy a Dowland disc, but
> sung by a real singer.Any suggestions?
>
> albert landa
dewach...@gmail.com
> albert landa wrote:
>
> >> Problem is that I'm not real simpatico with the polished wine and cheese
>
> > Polished wine?? I dunno.I know this skin-head who rides a Harley Davidson
> > and he really gets off on early Elizabethan music.Oh, and he really loves
> > wine and is quite a conoisseur of cheese.An amazing character!
>
> I'm not too simpatico with Harley riding skin-heads either, but then
> again, don't we all know a semi-scary Harley dude that digs sissy stuff?
You mean Doug?
dsi1
Honestly, I was not thinking of him. However, I'll have to defer to your
assessment since you probably know him better than I.
John Howell
>
>Thank you for your good wishes.I'm sure all the American ex-pats out here
>will be celebrating your Thanksgiving.Incidentally just what are the
>"thanks" being given for?
The survival of the European settlers through their first bitter New
England winter and their first harvest, according to legend as taught
in the elementary schools and Sunday schools. The usual logo is a
representation of a cornucopia brimming with the fruits of nature.
They were the ones intelligent enough to work WITH the native
indigenes, who already knew how to survive and what crops did well,
unlike other settler communities who tried to keep to European habits
and wipe out the "savages," and disappeared.
Canada has a similar holiday, and if one is clever about one's travel
one can end up celebrating two different Thanksgivings!!!
John
--
John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music
Virginia Tech Department of Music
College of Liberal Arts & Human Sciences
Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240
Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034
(mailto:John....@vt.edu)
http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html
"We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
of jazz musicians.
John Briggs
> At 9:40 PM +1100 11/27/08, albert landa wrote:
> >
> > Thank you for your good wishes.I'm sure all the
> > American ex-pats out here will be celebrating your
> > Thanksgiving.Incidentally just what are the "thanks"
> > being given for?
>
> The survival of the European settlers through their first
> bitter New England winter and their first harvest,
> according to legend as taught in the elementary schools
> and Sunday schools. The usual logo is a representation
> of a cornucopia brimming with the fruits of nature.
> They were the ones intelligent enough to work WITH the
> native indigenes, who already knew how to survive and
> what crops did well, unlike other settler communities who
> tried to keep to European habits and wipe out the
> "savages," and disappeared.
I'm not sure we should applaud their "intelligence" - they were lucky enough
to encounter two Native Americans who spoke English, one of whom had been to
London... They would have starved otherwise.
--
John Briggs
howard posner
>> Incidentally just what are the
>> "thanks" being given for?
>
> The survival of the European settlers through their first bitter New
> England winter and their first harvest, according to legend as taught
> in the elementary schools and Sunday schools.
And like most history taught in elementary schools, it's rubbish.
The short answer is "Gettysburg." Thanksgiving was proclaimed by
president Abraham Lincoln in October 1863, and it was about the
survival of a nation that had been in danger of splitting apart in a
civil war that was the bloodiest in human history. In 1863 the tide
of war turned; the Union captured Vicksburg, giving it control of the
Mississippi River, and crushed the Confederate Northern advance at
Gettysburg.
It's probably no coincidence that the date coincides with traditional
harvest festival times, but the association of Thanksgiving with the
"Pilgrims" (and one of the few moments in American history when
European settlers weren't annihilating the native people) came much
later, as the memory of the Civil War faded.
You can read the proclamation at http://showcase.netins.net/web/
creative/lincoln/speeches/thanks.htm Here's part of it, showing
Lincoln's astonishing mastery of words:
In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity,
which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke
their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order
has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and
harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military
conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the
advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of
wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the
national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the
ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the
mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have
yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily
increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp,
the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the
consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect
continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel
hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things.
They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing
with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It
has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly,
reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one
voice by the whole American People.
albert landa
> On 2008-11-26 16:34:50 -0500, "albert landa" <alber...@dodo.com.au>
> said:
>
>> One thing that has emerged from this discussion is that that song that
>> "Sting" sings on that little doco, you know, where he sings that
>> ascending
>> phrase ending with "I die" ( I have temporarily forgotten its title) is
>> utterly divine, and has made me want to rush out and buy a Dowland disc,
>> but
>> sung by a real singer.Any suggestions?
>>
>> albert landa
>
>
> No suggestions at all because you won't be able to find a "real singer"
> other than Sting performing this song on CD anytime soon, you see I
> think your hearing needs a little repair, there is no phrase ending
> with the words "I die" in that song that Sting and Karamazov perform
> together onstage in this little doco which is actually a promo for
> Karamazov's first solo/new Decca release "A Lute Is A Song"
> Here are the lyrics to the first phrase -
> wondered how I could win you ?Or if I could make you mine ?Or if I could
> make you mine
> Now if that were your only hearing problem it wouldn't be so bad but ?this
> song titled "I Was Brought To My Senses" (Alone With My Thoughts ?This
> Evening) which you very generously call "utterly divine" is not ?written
> by John Dowland but by Sting himself! (music & lyrics) it first ?appeared
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_Falling
> Sting is merely rehashing this song which sounds slightly Elizabethan &
> So now all the trash-talking about Sting which you've unfairly spewed ?up
> in this thread is reduced to nothing because of your ignorance - Go ?get
> some musical history awareness of both Dowland and Sting & put some ?real
> If you with your presently questionable ears consider a Sting song
> ?at least think the same and possibly even perform with its composer?
> So the thing that has really emerged from this discussion is that
> ?that YOU have suffered by not knowing what you're talking about and in
> ?the process have unfairly maligned two great musicians of different
> ?musical styles sharing their talents together.
> GR
You are an idiot, and very rude to boot.
I re-checked that song again and it is 'COME AGAIN" by Dowland.I did err in
that the line is actually "To die", not "I die".
I have expressed my opinions and I feel entitled to do that.I have never
heard 'Sting" in my life before and I stand by my opinion as expressed.I did
not "malign" Karamazov .The song that I described as "utterly" divine was
not by "Sting" but by John Dowland.
As to my ears.If you actually knew me you would realise how mistaken (and
highly personally insulting) you are.
To me 'Sting's" voice sounds untrained, his intonation is poor, and he has
this infuriating habit of starting a note softly, followed by a bulge in
crescendo.I have to admit that I am very ignorant of popular culture in
general.It just does not interest me.
Once again,Can anyone suggest a real singer in Dowland?
albert landa
>
>
>
G. Crona
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48B2pdprIDA
GR
> I re-checked that song again and it is 'COME AGAIN" by Dowland.
"Come Again" is nowhere to be found on the little doco this thread is
about and the same doco you're talking about here-
>>> "One thing that has emerged from this discussion is that that song that
>>> "Sting" sings on that little doco, you know, where he sings that
>>> ascending"
Could you please give cite the minutes and seconds into the doco video
(that Roman Turovsky linked to in the first post of this thread) that
it appears?
Thank you,
GR
John Howell
I was speaking of New England, where the original colonists did NOT
come across English-speaking natives because they were the first
Europeans there! I believe you are speaking of Virginia, which was
quite a different story. However, the original Virginia colony did
fail and its inhabitants did disappear without a trace, leaving only
the archeological layout of their original camp. John Smith and
Pocahontas came along a bit later.
But as I tried to intimate, our modern day Thanksgiving is based more
on legend and nostalgia than on accurate historical record.
albert landa
OK. There's been a mix-up here and it's certainly my fault.
What happened is this.I watched Turovsky's reccomended You Tube Doco and
after hearing some discussion about 'Sting" singing I looked up another doco
with precisely this and it was THIS doco that I was referring to.
Sorry.
albert landa
>
>
>
>
>
John Howell
>On Nov 27, 2008, at 11:39 AM, John Howell wrote:
>
>>> "thanks" being given for?
>>
>> England winter and their first harvest, according to legend as taught
>> in the elementary schools and Sunday schools.
>
I believe I intimated that, but in more moderate language.
>The short answer is "Gettysburg." Thanksgiving was proclaimed by
>president Abraham Lincoln in October 1863,
An interesting theory, to be sure, but the lengthy quote you provided
failed to include either the word "thanks" or the word
"thanksgiving." I believe that considerably better proof is needed.
And the Wikipedia article on "Thanksgiving" points out, quite
correctly, that both harvest festivals and the giving of formal
thanks for the bounty of the earth go back millennia rather than a
few centuries.
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I require better proof than a
quotation that does not have any mention of giving thanks.
What I was looking for on Wikipedia (and did not find) was a
statement of when the date was fixed at the 4th Thursday in November
and became a national holiday by act of Congress.
albert landa
> is)
(I looked up another doco
Roland Hutchinson
Only the first colonists, not the first Europeans.
> I believe you are speaking of Virginia, which was
> quite a different story. However, the original Virginia colony did
> fail and its inhabitants did disappear without a trace, leaving only
> the archeological layout of their original camp. John Smith and
> Pocahontas came along a bit later.
Squanto was a more widely traveled man than most of the Mayflower company --
though, it needs to be said, not entirely by choice. Samoset apparently
picked up his English in Maine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squanto
> But as I tried to intimate, our modern day Thanksgiving is based more
> on legend and nostalgia than on accurate historical record.
True enough! An accurate historical record would remind us that we are
celebrating the successful attempt of a group of persecuted religious
bigots to establish a theocracy on someone else's land, where they could
take a turn at doing the persecuting.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Roland Hutchinson
> What I was looking for on Wikipedia (and did not find) was a
> statement of when the date was fixed at the 4th Thursday in November
> and became a national holiday by act of Congress.
Look again:
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States) :
Abraham Lincoln's successors as president followed his example of annually
declaring the final Thursday in November to be Thanksgiving. But in 1939,
President Franklin D. Roosevelt broke with this tradition. November had
five Thursdays that year, and Roosevelt declared the fourth Thursday as
Thanksgiving rather than the fifth one. In 1940, in which November had four
Thursdays, he declared the third one as Thanksgiving. Although many popular
histories state otherwise, he made clear that his plan was to establish it
on the next-to-last Thursday in the month instead of the last one. With the
country still in the midst of The Great Depression, Roosevelt thought an
earlier Thanksgiving would give merchants a longer period to sell goods
before Christmas.
[...]
The U.S. Congress in 1941 split the difference and passed a bill requiring
that Thanksgiving be observed annually on the fourth Thursday of November,
which was sometimes the last Thursday and sometimes (less frequently) the
next to last. On December 26 of that year President Roosevelt signed this
bill, for the first time making the date of Thanksgiving a matter of
federal law. See 55 Stat. 862 (1941).
Doug Sears
> this infuriating habit of starting a note softly, followed by a bulge in
> crescendo.
I'm not going to go track down examples of Sting doing this, but from your
description it sounds a lot like "messa di voce", an ornament highly
recommended by Giulio Caccini at just about the time of Dowland. Of course,
it can be overused.
And I wish people on this newsgroup cum mailing list could be more civil. I
find that the ones whose opinions I value most are unfailingly civil. The
trash-talkers just make it less fun to be here.
--Doug Sears
howard posner
On Nov 27, 2008, at 5:47 PM, John Howell wrote:
> An interesting theory, to be sure, but the lengthy quote you provided
> failed to include either the word "thanks" or the word
> "thanksgiving." I believe that considerably better proof is needed.
> * * *
> I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I require better proof than a
> quotation that does not have any mention of giving thanks.
I wasn't trying to prove anything, particularly since the whole
subject is OT, but if you required proof, you might have gone to the
URL I provided for the complete proclamation. You would have found
that Lincoln continued by saying he invited his fellow citizens "to
set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of
Thanksgiving..." Here is the complete proclamation for John to read
and everyone else to ignore. Note the total absence of Pilgrims,
Indians, and Mayflowers.
By the President of the United States of America.
A Proclamation.
The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the
blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties,
which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the
source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so
extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften
even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful
providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled
magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States
to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved
with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been
respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in
the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly
contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful
diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful
industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the
shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our
settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the
precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore.
Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has
been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the
country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and
vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large
increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any
mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious
gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for
our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit
and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully
acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American
People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the
United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are
sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last
Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our
beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to
them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for
such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble
penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to
His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners
or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are
unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the
Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as
soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full
enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.
In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal
of the United States to be affixed.
Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the
year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of
the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth.
By the President: Abraham Lincoln
albert landa
"howard posner" <howard...@ca.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.223.122785...@wu-wien.ac.at...
Well,well,well.
This has indeed been extraordinarily interesting
Out here in Australia we don't know all that much about American history,
but it is indeed a great history, and as for the Gettysburg Address!.What a
mighty speech it is! It reminded me a little of Barack Obama's Acceptance
Speech which was one of the greatest speeches I have ever heard.
This, admittedly somewhat off-topic discussion has served to whet my
appetite and to start looking more into the history of your great nation.
albert landa
>
>
>
G. Crona
Zinn, Howard
A people's history of the United States : 1492-present
ISBN 0-582-77283-4
G
----- Original Message -----
From: "albert landa" <alber...@dodo.com.au>
Alain Naigeon
mailman.222.122784...@wu-wien.ac.at...
As for me, I've listened to videos on Youtube. I wouldn't say that Sting's
performance is the one I'd get, but I can't see no reason to be *sarcastic*
about it. And BTW, if we have many documents about theoretical aspects,
AFAIK we know nearly nothing about the vocal technique being thaught
during the Renaissance.
--
Français *==> "Musique renaissance" <==* English
midi - facsimiles - ligatures - mensuration
http://anaigeon.free.fr | http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/anaigeon/
Alain Naigeon - anai...@free.fr - Oberhoffen/Moder, France
http://fr.youtube.com/user/AlainNaigeon
Roman Turovsky
RT
"G. Crona" <kale...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.219.122783...@wu-wien.ac.at...
John Howell
>
>As for me, I've listened to videos on Youtube. I wouldn't say that Sting's
>performance is the one I'd get, but I can't see no reason to be *sarcastic*
>about it. And BTW, if we have many documents about theoretical aspects,
>AFAIK we know nearly nothing about the vocal technique being thaught
>during the Renaissance.
I'm not sure that's entirely true, although it depends in part on how
narrowly you define the word "Renaissance." Plenty of writers
indicated that the same kinds of technical skills (i.e. the ability
to ornament and improvise) were expected of both singers and
instrumentalists, and those very skills are certainly emphasized in
the several books on instrumental playing. We know what Caccini
wrote, and also the singing teacher Bacilli (whose dates I'm not sure
of, but whose article in New Grove I was written by my colleague at
Indiana University, Austin Caswell). And we know that even the
largest church choirs of the time were small by modern standards, and
that in spite of that the singers were capable of filling their
churches with sound.
But I am quite aware that some living singers have investigated
exactly this question and have obviously found sources that are
meaningful to them. I just don't know what those sources are. We
might start with a simple sentence by Michael Praetorius, writing in
the 1610s to explain to German choir directors how to duplicate the
very popular Venetian polychoral style, who said that when dividing
one's choir into smaller choirs and placing them around the church,
("be sure to have at least one singer in each choir, so that the text
is not lost." In other words, voices and instruments really were
considered equal, which means equal in volume as well as equal in
importance, and we have a VERY good idea of the volume level of
renaissance instruments.
John Briggs
> At 9:28 PM +0000 11/27/08, John Briggs wrote:
> > John Howell wrote:
> > > At 9:40 PM +1100 11/27/08, albert landa wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your good wishes.I'm sure all the
> > > > American ex-pats out here will be celebrating your
> > > > Thanksgiving.Incidentally just what are the
> > > "thanks" > being given for?
> > >
> > > The survival of the European settlers through their
> > > first bitter New England winter and their first
> > > harvest, according to legend as taught in the
> > > elementary schools and Sunday schools. The usual
> > > logo is a representation of a cornucopia brimming
> > > with the fruits of nature. They were the ones
> > > intelligent enough to work WITH the native
> > > indigenes, who already knew how to survive and what
> > > crops did well, unlike other settler communities who
> > > tried to keep to European habits and wipe out the
> > > "savages," and disappeared.
> >
> > I'm not sure we should applaud their "intelligence" -
> > they were lucky enough to encounter two Native
> > Americans who spoke English, one of whom had been to
> > London... They would have starved otherwise.
>
> colonists did NOT come across English-speaking natives
> because they were the first Europeans there! I believe
> you are speaking of Virginia, which was quite a different
> story. However, the original Virginia colony did fail
> and its inhabitants did disappear without a trace,
> leaving only the archeological layout of their original
> camp. John Smith and Pocahontas came along a bit later.
No, I'm talking about the Mayflower "Pilgrims" at Plymouth Colony.
They seemed more like the B-Ark from Golgafrincham...
--
John Briggs
bill
>
> "We never play anything the same way once." Shelly Manne's definition
> of jazz musicians.
the only criticism i have of the karamazov video - a silly one - is
the "hair thing" - i hope he gets over it, becomes a little more
comfortable with himself and continues to make wonderful music.
envy and gutter sniping aside, sting has been bashed about enough - me
thinks - for his very enjoyable dowland recordings. dowland was a pop-
musician and it shouldn't be considered as outlandish for another pop-
musican to play his music. i once heard a highly embarrassing
performance of "ol' man river" by the cambridge univ. choir in which
"dee's, dat's, dem's, etc. and ribber's" were enunciated in clear,
crisp, well modulated tones ... all thoroughly pukkah, i'm sure - and
cringe making.
- bill
Alain Naigeon
mailman.225.122789...@wu-wien.ac.at...
> At 4:00 PM +0100 11/28/08, Alain Naigeon wrote:
>>
>>As for me, I've listened to videos on Youtube. I wouldn't say that Sting's
>>performance is the one I'd get, but I can't see no reason to be
>>*sarcastic*
>>about it. And BTW, if we have many documents about theoretical aspects,
>>AFAIK we know nearly nothing about the vocal technique being thaught
>>during the Renaissance.
>
> I'm not sure that's entirely true, although it depends in part on how
> narrowly you define the word "Renaissance." Plenty of writers indicated
> that the same kinds of technical skills (i.e. the ability to ornament and
> improvise) were expected of both singers and instrumentalists, and those
> very skills are certainly emphasized in the several books on instrumental
> playing.
Well, rather thn stylistic aspects, I was thinking of voice production
(I'm not sure to be familiar with the technical terms in English; in French
people often talk of "chest" voice, "head" voice, or "mixed" voice, but
I know that some teachers nowadays refer to "thin vocal strings" or
"thick vocal strings", etc).
> We know what Caccini wrote, and also the singing teacher Bacilli (whose
> dates I'm not sure of, but whose article in New Grove I was written by my
> colleague at Indiana University, Austin Caswell). And we know that even
> the largest church choirs of the time were small by modern standards, and
> that in spite of that the singers were capable of filling their churches
> with sound.
Aha, that's it. We know that some contemporary popular singers wouldn't
be able to fill a church without a microphone. That's not necessarly a
negative comment, I just mean it tells something on the vocal technique.
> But I am quite aware that some living singers have investigated exactly
> this question and have obviously found sources that are meaningful to
> them. I just don't know what those sources are. We might start with a
> simple sentence by Michael Praetorius, writing in the 1610s to explain to
> German choir directors how to duplicate the very popular Venetian
> polychoral style, who said that when dividing one's choir into smaller
> choirs and placing them around the church, ("be sure to have at least one
> singer in each choir, so that the text is not lost." In other words,
> voices and instruments really were considered equal, which means equal in
> volume as well as equal in importance, and we have a VERY good idea of the
> volume level of renaissance instruments.
I realize that the technical differences between classical and popular
singing is greater for women than for men. A classical female singer
isn't supposed to use her chest voice (I have even heard that women
of a high social condition weren't expected to talk like that!?).
OTH, a man may use his chest voice amongst other techniques, even
if classical singers perhaps specially work to get smoother transitions
between their ranges.
I'd be also curious to know which document we have about the fact
that they were singing without vibrato (excepted, of course, at some
places, on purpose, as an ornament).