Listenin' to Bob Dylan singin' in 1963
really real
"Listenin' to Bob Dylan singin' in 1963
Watching the flags of freedom flyin'"
The new Neil Young album sounds good this morning. Okay, some of the
melodies sound familiar, but the spirit and spark and aim of this record
is quite marvelous.
Neil Young is taking aim at evil, just like that protest singing Bob
Dylan did in '63. America's lucky to have Neil Young. Had he stayed at
home in Canada, he wouldn't have as much to sing about.
Mr Jinx
The problem is exactly that: Neil is taking aim just like Bob did in
1963. The world has moved on since those simpler times. Peace signs,
love-ins and anti-nuclear bumper stickers went out some time ago. Bob
is wise enough to see that the seeds of war reside inside us all. The
exchanges between the characters on 'Love & Theft' show the workings of
conflict and war with great clarity and without having to be overt or
about any specific conflict of the moment.
"One of the boss' hangers-on
Sometimes comes to call
At times you least expect
Tryin' to bully you, strongarm you
inspire you with fear
It has the opposite effect"
Just about says it all, really.
Neil Young is a simpler soul than Bob. Maybe he has to make big gauche
statements specific to a certain situation in order to make his songs
work. Dylan did that kind of thing when he was a young man but - like
most of us - he has grown up. The Young man, though, still seems stuck
in one-dimensional teen posturing. However much you we sympathize with
the cause he appears to be espousing you can't help wishing he didn't
have to be quite so obvious about it.
Maybe he should have given 'Love & Theft' a good listen.
"Well my captain he's decorated - he's well schooled and he's skilled
My captain, he's decorated - he's well schooled and he's skilled
He's not sentimental - don't bother him at all
How many of his pals have been killed."
Mr Jinx
Pilgrim
Right. Since "Love & Theft" came out on 9/11, that subtle approach has
worked wonders. It's one way or the highway Jinx, at it again. When
did speaking out publicly on an issue become teen posturing? Good
grief. You may have a legitimate argument about artistic merit. I'll
agree with that one, but in a country where mail is regularly being
searched (I know people who have to deal with this continuously), phone
lines may be tapped without a warrent, our president has declared
himself above the law and God knows what other lunacy is happening
(detention centers, anyone?), and any kind of opposition is labled
unpatriotic, speaking out clearly and unambiguously may be a better
political solution.
badlands420
>When
> did speaking out publicly on an issue become teen posturing?
When you write a song called "Let's Impeach The President" and you're not a
citizen of the country you're singing about, you're pretty much a jackass
whether you've got a valid point or not.
Pilgrim
Why? His wife is a US citizen and so are his children. He lives in
this country and pays taxes.
Pilgrim
In fact, since he lives in this country and pays taxes and isn't
allowed to vote, I'd say he has more of a reason to make his statement.
At least this way he's able to get some kind of representation, in
theory, at least, for the money he's given to the US Treasury. He
could even sing the Star Spangled Banner in Spanish, though maybe not
completely in tune.
RJ
"badlands420" <bu...@hole.com> wrote:
> When you write a song called "Let's Impeach The President" and you're not a
> citizen of the country you're singing about, you're pretty much a jackass
> whether you've got a valid point or not.
Neil Young has live in America for over forty years (older than you have
been alive I would assume). His Wife is American and so are all of his
Children. Which I guess makes you the jackass.
badlands420
> Neil Young has live in America for over forty years (older than you have
> been alive I would assume).
Right, so he likes to reap all the benefits of living here, bestows upon
himself the right to criticize American leaders (well, as long as they've
got the right political affiliation), but is unwilling to legitimize his
views by becoming naturalized. Why do you suppose this is?
badlands420
> In fact, since he lives in this country and pays taxes and isn't
> allowed to vote,
That doesn't make him any different from the guy who mows my lawn.
really real
>
> When you write a song called "Let's Impeach The President" and you're not a
> citizen of the country you're singing about, you're pretty much a jackass
> whether you've got a valid point or not.
Anyone who would complain about Neil Young not being a citizen is
someone who wants to defend George Bush.
>
>
really real
>
> The problem is exactly that: Neil is taking aim just like Bob did in
> 1963. The world has moved on since those simpler times. Peace signs,
> love-ins and anti-nuclear bumper stickers went out some time ago. Bob
> is wise enough to see that the seeds of war reside inside us all.
Yes, good old Bob back in '63 was too young not to speak out of turn.
Now, Bob is so much wiser now that he doesn't take stands in his songs.
But someone has to.
Treadleson
Yeah, that's true. But look around and you'll notice that many guests
in this country have little sense of grace or civility. In fact it's
become almost de rigeur (like my French lingo?).
badlands420
> Anyone who would complain about Neil Young not being a citizen is
> someone who wants to defend George Bush.
Anyone who speaks in arbitrary absolutisms should really get laid more
often.
badlands420
> Yes, good old Bob back in '63 was too young not to speak out of turn.
> Now, Bob is so much wiser now that he doesn't take stands in his songs.
> But someone has to.
So you think Neil Young's album is going to have some profound impact on
geopolitical affairs?
PS- There are few things more entertaining than interacting with graying
hippie liberals who steadfastly refuse to exchange their 60s idealism for
21st century reality. I realize I've just alienated at least 95% of the
people in this NG, but that's fine.
really real
> So you think Neil Young's album is going to have some profound impact on
> geopolitical affairs?
A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step
>
> PS- There are few things more entertaining than interacting with graying
> hippie liberals who steadfastly refuse to exchange their 60s idealism for
> 21st century reality. I realize I've just alienated at least 95% of the
> people in this NG, but that's fine.
It's one thing to speak in abstracts, but are you really in support of
this dreadful Iraq war?
khematite
> > So you think Neil Young's album is going to have some profound impact on
> > geopolitical affairs?
>
>
> A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step
Of course, so does a journey of one step.
badlands420
> It's one thing to speak in abstracts, but are you really in support of
> this dreadful Iraq war?
I'd love to know when I said, implied, or intimated that. That you would
infer such a thing from one comment about Neil Young is, frankly, sad. You
should stop being a political binarist and open yourself up to the wonderful
world of individual thought.
M. Rick
can only write (and sing) a "Fuck Castro" song if you live outside of Cuba.
The problem here is that Neil Young has lived in America for 40 years and he
hasn't bothered to vote. If voting is totally useless then so is singing
about impeaching the President.
badlands420
> The problem here is that Neil Young has lived in America for 40 years and
> he
> hasn't bothered to vote. If voting is totally useless then so is singing
> about impeaching the President.
My problem isn't with his subject matter (he can whine about anything he
wants for all I care), but more with his semantics. If he titled the thing
"I Hope The US Impeaches Their President," that would be fine with me. But
when he says "Let's Impeach The President," he's possessively referring to a
function of the United States government, which is elected by the voting
citizenry of the United States, of which he is not a member by his own
choosing. If he was so bothered about all this shit, you'd think it would
matter to him enough to take the citizenship test and go vote. Until he
does, he can either change the verbiage of his titles or shut his fuckin'
mouth.
Pilgrim
You actually hire someone to mow your lawn?
Elitist.
really real
> I'd love to know when I said, implied, or intimated that. That you would
> infer such a thing from one comment about Neil Young is, frankly, sad.
What's sad is all the horrible deaths that have occurred as a result of
the disintegration of the country of Iraq, caused by America's foreign
war there. When one of America's greatest singer-songwriters takes a
stand against the war, you criticize him for doing so because he's not
an American citizen.
Then you comment about "with graying hippie liberals who steadfastly
refuse to exchange their 60s idealism for 21st century reality."
That comment sounds to me like you think 21st century reality is all
about invading Iraq. America was horribly wrong to invade Vietnam in the
20th century, causing about 3 million deaths. For America to forget this
disaster and launch an even worse war in the 21st century shows that
this is not an issue of centuries, it's an issue of imperialism and
warmongering.
Your so-called individual thought on this issue, like using the word
"liberal" as a pejorative, exposes what you really think about the Iraq
war. Criticizing Neil's Young's lack of American citizenship is an
attempt to blame the messenger of the anti-war message.
really real
> My problem isn't with his subject matter (he can whine about anything he
> wants for all I care), but more with his semantics. If he titled the thing
> "I Hope The US Impeaches Their President," that would be fine with me. But
> when he says "Let's Impeach The President," he's possessively referring to a
> function of the United States government, which is elected by the voting
> citizenry of the United States, of which he is not a member by his own
> choosing. If he was so bothered about all this shit, you'd think it would
> matter to him enough to take the citizenship test and go vote. Until he
> does, he can either change the verbiage of his titles or shut his fuckin'
> mouth.
>
>
Pure bullshit. You're trying to impeach Neil Young on a technicality.
Voting against George Bush in California turned out to have no effect,
because of the way the Electoral College works. Actually, defeating
George Bush in a presidential election also turned out to have no
effect, but that's a different story.
I encourage people to vote, and was annoyed that in TOOM, Dylan seemed
to be expressing the futility of voting. But that's got nothing to do
with someone writing a great anti-war and anti-Bush song. Separate the
art from the artist.
If it turned out that Steve Earle was a homosexual, it would not detract
one iota from his song, Condi Condi.
If you want Neil Young to shut his mouth, then it's obvious you don't
like his message.
Pilgrim
badlands420 wrote:
> > Yes, good old Bob back in '63 was too young not to speak out of turn.
> > Now, Bob is so much wiser now that he doesn't take stands in his songs.
> > But someone has to.
>
> So you think Neil Young's album is going to have some profound impact on
> geopolitical affairs?
I think if he influences enough people with the biodiesel, he just
might. Michigan's governor just decided that this state is going to
expand production of it and make it more available in more gas stations
throughout the entire state.
The funny thing is, the state Neil lives in, along with Illinois, is
actually trying to impeach the dear leader.
>
> PS- There are few things more entertaining than interacting with graying
> hippie liberals who steadfastly refuse to exchange their 60s idealism for
> 21st century reality. I realize I've just alienated at least 95% of the
> people in this NG, but that's fine.
Oh, don't flatter yourself. I doubt that that comment is what has
alienated people. Don't call me a hippie, now. I was a baby then.
That kind of well reasoned, subtle argumentation just isn't going to
work. Just swear at me, instead.
Wilbur Slice
wrote:
First of all, even a US citizen can't really say "Let's" impeach the
president. Only members of Congress can, technically speaking, do
that. So while you might be pedantically correct about Neil not being
able to do so, you are also pedantically wrong about his citizenship
being the limiting factor. But who gives a crap? I think we all get
what he means.
And also, if he were to become a citizen and vote, it would add up to
just about nothing. Bush was not elected because Neil Young didn't
cast a vote. (In fact, IIRC, Young supported Bush in the last
election - the dumb fuck). He has a VASTLY more powerful influence by
writing his music and playing it and publicizing it. It might still
not be significant enough to decide any issues, but it's a hell of a
lot more potent than any single vote.
Pilgrim
really real wrote:
>
> I encourage people to vote, and was annoyed that in TOOM, Dylan seemed
> to be expressing the futility of voting.
He was in Ohio when he wrote that.
badlands420
> You actually hire someone to mow your lawn?
Well yeah, it's a big fuckin' lawn.
badlands420
>When one of America's greatest singer-songwriters takes a
> stand against the war, you criticize him for doing so because he's not an
> American citizen.
Your thinking is simplistic and nonsensical here. Neil Young makes his
living producing products for public consumption and, by consequence, public
criticism. You seem to be suggesting, with a straight face, that it's
distasteful for anyone to criticize Neil Young because you happen to agree
with his "message."
> That comment sounds to me like you think 21st century reality is all about
> invading Iraq.
Then you're an idiot and a simpleton. Have it your way.
>America was horribly wrong to invade Vietnam in the 20th century, causing
>about 3 million deaths.
And now we move into full-scale straw man mode. Why am I not surprised.
>For America to forget this disaster and launch an even worse war in the
>21st century shows that this is not an issue of centuries, it's an issue of
>imperialism and warmongering.
See what I mean?
> Your so-called individual thought on this issue, like using the word
> "liberal" as a pejorative,
I hate to break this to you, but the word "liberal" has been a pejorative in
this country for at least two decades. If you think I'm wrong, find me a
Democratic elected official who describes him/herself as a liberal. I'll be
waiting to hear back from you.
>exposes what you really think about the Iraq war.
You have no idea what I think about the Iraq war, you fucking dolt. You
haven't even asked me what I think about the Iraq war, because you'd rather
make a horse's ass of yourself by jumping to conclusions that are not in
evidence. Spending every waking hour of your life on anal-retentive analyses
of Bob Dylan setlists has clearly had a catastrohpic effect on your IQ.
>Criticizing Neil's Young's lack of American citizenship is an attempt to
>blame the messenger of the anti-war message.
When somebody acts like a jackass, I call him a jackass. I make no exception
for political ideology, even if it's the same as my own. If you'd rather
live in a black/white world where everything is 100% good or 100% bad,
that's your own business. But I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that
that's the same way George Bush's brain works.
Nate Smith
;-)....however.......
perhaps our first SmallTalkAtTheWall* founder, mac_cam99, will
probably disagree. here's the story from our database:
".. I had the opportunity to shake Bob’s hand briefly after a concert
he gave in Spartanburg, SC in November ’96. It was the night before the
Presidential election of that year. I had had a beer or twelve that night
and was feeling no fear. I had no idea what to say to him so the first
thing that popped out of my mouth was “Great show Bob!!! Who ya gonna
vote for tomorrow???” All he said in reply was “hey!!”, not unpleasantly.
Ok, so fast forward a year later. I’m listening to ‘Time Out of Mind’ for
the first time and ‘Highlands’ comes on. I hear the line “somebody just
asked me if I was registered to vote” and bolt upright from my bed and
said “Holy Shit!!!, that was me!!!”... of course, chances are it WASN’T
me... chances are he just needed something to rhyme with “full length
leather coat”... but a boy can dream, can’t he???
so i'm guessing he was in Spatanburg. S.C..
- gneight
* http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/smalltalkatthewall/
really real
>
> I hate to break this to you, but the word "liberal" has been a pejorative in
> this country for at least two decades.
And you're either part of the problem or part of the solution.
There have been a lot of problems with America that have lasted at least
two decades. That doesn't make them right.
Pilgrim
badlands420 wrote:
> > You actually hire someone to mow your lawn?
>
> Well yeah, it's a big fuckin' lawn.
Are you better than the man who mows your big fuckin' lawn?
M. Rick
In that case I'll follow Neil Young's example and refuse to vote. And while
I'm at it I'll renounce my irrelevant citizenship. But I will join Neil's
whistle-stop tour and implore my fellow countrymen impeach the President.
"Buy your tickets to impeach the President! Bootlegs of the impeachment
concert sold at the door!"
Pilgrim
You do understand the process of the Electoral College, don't you M.
Rick?
M. Rick
Official bootlegs, that is. Neil has to pay his taxes whether he votes or
not.
"Let's burn less oil" - George Bush
Rachel
i'm also going to tailor it to the situation at hand.
Keith Richards needs a new brain. The doctor tells him he has two
choices.
"We have two brains available, Mr. Richards. Albert Einstein's, and
George Bush's. Which would you like?"
"Well, George Bush's, naturally."
"What??" shrieked the doctor. "Why in the world would you want his
brain over Albert Einstein's???"
"Because it's never been used!" Keith told him.
Pilgrim
Also, what is the issue with someone suggesting we impeach the
President if they don't vote? It seems to me that it's a suggestion to
people to start being vocal on the issue so more Congress people (who
actually do the impeaching) hear it and develop a spine.
Considering that Bush actually lost by popular vote in 2000, and quite
possibly by Electoral College in 2004, though we'll never really know,
getting rid of the man-handling of elections and various kinds of fraud
(which will probably get worse in the future with the use of
computers), there are quite a number of people who are dissillusioned
about the voting process and Democracy in the U.S..
Rachel
the second person. i tried to write it with bob dylan, and think of
something clever to say about bob's brain, but it didn't work out.
i'm having a very bad day.
that joke was really stupid.
sorry.
M. Rick
You do understand that the right to vote includes state and local
elections. And if Neil Young is so concerned about making his vote
count for President, he's wealthy enough to establish a residency in
one of the swing states and mail in his absentee ballot. If he's not
concerned about voting then I don't see why he should be concerned
about impeaching.
M. Rick
So I should implore my Congressman to impeach the President but I
shouldn't bother to vote in the next Congressional election.
Gotta turn down the sound.
.
J Buck
President if they don't vote?>
There's an old saying, "if you don't vote, don't bitch". Not that I
agree with it 100%.
badlands420
> Are you better than the man who mows your big fuckin' lawn?
No, I'm not better than any man.
badlands420
> There have been a lot of problems with America that have lasted at least
> two decades. That doesn't make them right.
I'd put the two-party duocracy right at the top of that list.
badlands420
> Voting against George Bush in California turned out to have no effect,
> because of the way the Electoral College works.
So you're arguing in favor of voter apathy and low turnout. No wonder you
like Neil Young so much.
Treadleson
really real wrote:
> >
> If you want Neil Young to shut his mouth, then it's obvious you don't
> like his message.
You'll like his message if you like lies, gross distortions,
half-truths, slander, adolescent lyric writing, pandering to the
converted, bumper sticker sloganeering, agitprop, scurrilous
accusations, piousness, and twisting reality to advance some political
agenda through music.
"Let's Impeach the President":
Let's impeach the president for lying
And leading our country into war
Abusing all the power that we gave him
And shipping all our money out the door
He's the man who hired all the criminals
The White House shadows who hide behind closed doors
And bend the facts to fit with their new stories
Of why we have to send our men to war
Let's impeach the president for spying
On citizens inside their own homes
Breaking every law in the country
By tapping our computers and telephones
What if Al Qaeda blew up the levees
Would New Orleans have been safer that way
Sheltered by our government's protection
Or was someone just not home that day?
Let's impeach the president
For hijacking our religion and using it to get elected
Dividing our country into colors
And still leaving black people neglected
Thank god he's cracking down on steroids
Since he sold his old baseball team
There's lot of people looking at big trouble
But of course the president is clean
Thank God
really real
> You'll like his message if you like lies, gross distortions,
> half-truths, slander, adolescent lyric writing, pandering to the
> converted, bumper sticker sloganeering, agitprop, scurrilous
> accusations, piousness, and twisting reality to advance some political
> agenda through music.
One man's poetry is another man's lies, gross distortions etc etc.
Thank g-d we have freedom of speech in America. I want to listen to a
song called Let's Impeach the President.
khematite
I have to admit that I don't even understand what's being implied here.
It was voting FOR George Bush in California that turned out to have no
effect. Kerry won 55% of the vote in that state and got 100% of its
electoral votes--which some might consider unfair. It was the 45% who
voted FOR Bush in California who wound up having absolutely no effect
on the final result when the Electoral College met and California cast
all its electoral votes for Kerry.
Of course, California's electors ended up having no effect in the sense
that Bush was ultimately chosen, but that's usually what happens when
someone wins three million more votes than their opponent is able to
muster.
badlands420
> Thank g-d we have freedom of speech in America. I want to listen to a
> song called Let's Impeach the President.
Maybe you should listen to a song called Let's Win a Damn Election.
bach...@rogers.com
them
without calling them a "dolt", a "simpleton", a "jackass".
Real class act. You're a great advertisement for your beliefs.
A real shining example of a discerning, refined 'individual' intellect.
Mr Jinx
really real wrote:
> >
> > My problem isn't with his subject matter (he can whine about anything he
> > wants for all I care), but more with his semantics. If he titled the thing
> > "I Hope The US Impeaches Their President," that would be fine with me. But
> > when he says "Let's Impeach The President," he's possessively referring to a
> > function of the United States government, which is elected by the voting
> > citizenry of the United States, of which he is not a member by his own
> > choosing. If he was so bothered about all this shit, you'd think it would
> > matter to him enough to take the citizenship test and go vote. Until he
> > does, he can either change the verbiage of his titles or shut his fuckin'
> > mouth.
> >
> >
>
>
> Voting against George Bush in California turned out to have no effect,
> George Bush in a presidential election also turned out to have no
> effect, but that's a different story.
>
> I encourage people to vote, and was annoyed that in TOOM, Dylan seemed
> with someone writing a great anti-war and anti-Bush song. Separate the
> art from the artist.
>
> If it turned out that Steve Earle was a homosexual, it would not detract
> one iota from his song, Condi Condi.
>
> If you want Neil Young to shut his mouth, then it's obvious you don't
> like his message.
Not true. I agree with his message I just think he puts it clumsily
and it doesn't make for great or timeless art.
Mr Jinx
Pilgrim
I think Young's telling Americans to tell their Congresspeople to
impeach him. It's a bit of a 'rallying song', duh. Got your panties
in a bunch, though, which is a bit amusing, but not as amusing as
badlands spasms.
Pilgrim
Like in 2000?
M. Rick
The electoral college argument is that California was a decided (or
uncontested) state and therefore meaningless to vote in. The broader
argument is that the individual vote has no importance in any election.
However it is very important to add your individual voice to the impeachment
chorus.
M. Rick
one iota from his song, Condi Condi.
Here's a closer analogy, and one I'm sure you agree with: if it turned out
that Billy Bragg was a zionist bulldozer of Palestinian dwellings, it would
not detract one iota from his song, the Lonesome Death of Rachel Corrie.
Pilgrim
But, Jinx, do you honestly believe he should be censored because of bad
art? The answer to that is, don't buy the album. The argument going
on here is that he shouldn't be saying what he's saying because he
doesn't vote in the United States.
Mr Jinx
Of course he shouldn't be censored. He is entitled to any opinion he
wishes to put across (and people are entitled to be pissed off with him
for preaching). My point is just that I look to artists to make me
think, not tell me WHAT to think.
Mr Jinx
really real
>> My point is just that I look to artists to make me
> think, not tell me WHAT to think.
>
Neil Young is trying to make you think. He's trying to make you think
about the importance of protest songs in trying times. You are
resisting, but eventually, your brain will click into gear.
Mr Jinx
Lol ;-)
He's made me think about a checked shirt for the summer.
Mr Jinx
Pilgrim
Wev.
The entire world is affected by what the US does. I agree with Jinx
that the song is clumsy, but Young has a right to say whatever he
want's to say. It's not that bad of song though, when I compare it to
a few other people, even some of Dylans songs. Union Sundown comes to
mind. Obviously he thinks the song is something that many Americans
want and need to hear and he felt he needed to say it. Perhaps he
believes that the song will have more of an affect than his single
vote, which I'd have to aggree with, actually. I do vote, but in the
national elections, it's kind of like choosing between evil and
impotence. I chose impotence. I'm quite glad I live in a liberal town
inside a blue state, though. At least I have some local candidates to
choose from.
Now, Young could do what YOU want him to do, but my bet is that he's
choosing to do what he does for his own reasons and you do what you
want to do for your own reasons. He no doubt disagrees with you.
I'm not sure what the situation is with dual residency in Canada, so I
can't answer the question about why he hasn't become a US citizen. He
might wish to remain Canadian for his own reasons. I honestly don't
know. I still think he's free to write a song about impeaching the US
president. I think anyone should be free to write a song about
impeaching the US president. They can also, if they want, write a song
about what a great president he's been or a song about his fishing
skills, or his mastery of the English language and or how good he looks
in a flightsuit. If I don't like the song, I won't buy the album.
It's pretty simple.
This is probably why Dylan retreated. When you get well known, too
many people think they own you and start bitching about what you've
said or what you've done. People still bitch about his choices,
though, at least the ones they know about. Fame must really suck
sometimes.
crazytimes
Pilgrim wrote:
> I still think he's free to write a song about impeaching the US
> president. I think anyone should be free to write a song about
> impeaching the US president.
Yep. God forbid an Iraqi write a song about impeaching the
presidente...
Weapons of Mass Destruciton - 'This machine kills fascists'
'We found a guitar factory hidden in the desert, so we bombed it'...
craiglg
-apart from your goodself- can listen to the words.
really real
> But Jinxy the problem is the music on L&T is just so awfull no one
> -apart from your goodself- can listen to the words.
>
True, the music is not the music world's most inviting, but those of us
real Bob Dylan fans read the lyric sheet when we play the album. I did
include Po' Boy in my 16 song essential introduction to Bob Dylan for my
barber.
M. Rick
I think he's just expressing his anger. Actually I find some of these
songs quite comical. Steriods. Flat screen TVs. Hijacking "our"
religion. Ain't singing for Spuds.
I doubt anyone is going to tell his Congressman to impeach Bush after
listening to Neil Young.
Pilgrim
M. Rick wrote:
> > I think Young's telling Americans to tell their Congresspeople to impeach him.
>
> I think he's just expressing his anger. Actually I find some of these
> songs quite comical. Steriods. Flat screen TVs. Hijacking "our"
> religion. Ain't singing for Spuds.
I did laugh at the "'our'" religion" bit, though I do think non-insane
Christians should be heard from a bit more. All the ones I know are
already politically active, but they're nice people and, well, sane, so
they don't have an in-your-face-lunacy with which to out-shout the
wingnuts.
>
> I doubt anyone is going to tell his Congressman to impeach Bush after
> listening to Neil Young.
Probably not directly and Pelosi just tabled the idea anyway.
khematite
> >I have to admit that I don't even understand what's being implied here.
>
> The electoral college argument is that California was a decided (or
> uncontested) state and therefore meaningless to vote in. The broader
> argument is that the individual vote has no importance in any election.
Ah well, if that was the argument being made, then the person making it
is really quite clever. After all, if one can persuade everyone else
that the individual vote has no importance, then one can go to the
polls on election day, cast the only vote, and thereby decide the
election.
badlands420
>
> Like in 2000?
Oh, fucking let it go already. You people could take humility lessons from
Richard Nixon.
badlands420
> Neil Young is trying to make you think.
He should worry about matters that effect his own country,
like.........umm.........baby seals and softwood lumber.
badlands420
> Real class act. You're a great advertisement for your beliefs.
> A real shining example of a discerning, refined 'individual' intellect.
Thank you, you're too kind.
badlands420
> True, the music is not the music world's most inviting, but those of us
> real Bob Dylan fans read the lyric sheet when we play the album.
Anyone who refers to himself as a "real fan" is an ignoramus.
craiglg
Mr Jinx
I hope you also included the rousing religious number Gotta Serve
Somebody for your barber. "You may know how to cut hair" etc.
Mr Jinx
Mr Jinx
I think really real was maybe having a sly dig at people like me who
occasionally - in moments of mindbendingly arrogant hubris - imagine
that our 24-7 focus on all things Dylan entitles us to the monkier:
'real fans'. really real himself has never made such a claim and
would, I am sure, only use such a term ironically.
Mr Jinx
really real
>
> He should worry about matters that effect his own country,
> like.........umm.........baby seals and softwood lumber.
>
>
You want to seal off America from immigrants, or tell immigrants, when
they come to America, to keep their mouths shut? Well, it would have
prevented Kissinger from doing so much damage, but otherwise, your
immigration policy would really be a disaster for your country.
But who am I to speak? I'm not an American, so I shouldn't even be
allowed in a newsgroup about an American singer songwriter.
really real
>
> I think really real was maybe having a sly dig at people like me who
> occasionally - in moments of mindbendingly arrogant hubris - imagine
> that our 24-7 focus on all things Dylan entitles us to the monkier:
> 'real fans'. really real himself has never made such a claim and
> would, I am sure, only use such a term ironically.
>
No, actually I was being serious. By "real fan" I meant "serious fan,"
someone who would look up the lyrics if they couldn't follow them by
listening to a Dylan song.
badlands420
> You want to seal off America from immigrants, or tell immigrants, when
> they come to America, to keep their mouths shut?
No, but I certainly wish they would have the good taste to do so on their
own.
>Well, it would have prevented Kissinger from doing so much damage,
Kissinger is a citizen and registered voter. What the hell is your point?
>but otherwise, your immigration policy would really be a disaster for your
>country.
I think the present immigration policy is sufficiently disastrous on its
own, thank you.
> But who am I to speak? I'm not an American, so I shouldn't even be allowed
> in a newsgroup about an American singer songwriter.
Oh, nonsense. Bitching and moaning about American politics is one of the
world's two favorite pastimes. The other one is begging us for money.
badlands420
> No, actually I was being serious. By "real fan" I meant "serious fan,"
> someone who would look up the lyrics if they couldn't follow them by
> listening to a Dylan song.
1. So a "real fan" has to be fixated solely on the lyrics and isn't allowed
to listen to a song simply to enjoy the music?
2. Who the hell appointed you the final arbiter of what a "real fan" is,
anyway?
3. What possible purpose could ever be served by using the term "real fan?"
People who go around affixing such haughty labels to themselves are
typically doing so to mask a paralyzing sense of personal inadequacy.
I cannot WAIT to hear you try to rationalize yourself out of this particular
wet paper bag.
Treadleson
Pilgrim wrote:
>
> Also, what is the issue with someone suggesting we impeach the
> President if they don't vote?
Well, "put your money where your mouth is" is pretty much the issue
here. It's hypocrisy to exhort people to engage in a constitutional
process when he himself doesn't participate in the constitutional
process.
really real
>
> Kissinger is a citizen and registered voter. What the hell is your point?
>
He never got rid of his awful European accent.
really real
>
> 1. So a "real fan" has to be fixated solely on the lyrics and isn't allowed
> to listen to a song simply to enjoy the music?
>
How are you doing on the Hollywood Strings do the Collected Works of Bob
Dylan?
Anyone who listens to Bob Dylan and doesn't pay attention to the lyrics
is not a real fan.
badlands420
> He never got rid of his awful European accent.
I always dreamed of hearing Kissinger and Johnny Cash doing a duet of Old
Man River.
badlands420
> Anyone who listens to Bob Dylan and doesn't pay attention to the lyrics
> is not a real fan.
Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the musical quality of Dylan's material is
doing himself a profound disservice and has probably never picked up a
guitar before.
It's really funny that you're sitting here trying to argue that you're a
"real fan" because you willfully ignore half the equation of what a song is.
Or maybe your comprehensive skills just aren't sufficient to appreciate good
lyrics and good music simultaneously.
really real
>
> Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the musical quality of Dylan's material is
> doing himself a profound disservice and has probably never picked up a
> guitar before.
No, that kind of person only reads the lyric book and never even listens
to the Hollywood Strings.
>
> It's really funny that you're sitting here trying to argue that you're a
> "real fan" because you willfully ignore half the equation of what a song is.
> Or maybe your comprehensive skills just aren't sufficient to appreciate good
> lyrics and good music simultaneously.
Well, that's my point, that one must listen to the lyrics. Dylan is
famous for his lyrics, not so much his music, though he has a nice sense
of melody and has worked with some good bands.
Can you imagine Dylan going electric at Newport, with the Butterfield
Blues Band, if he hadn't sung but only played harmonica. That would have
been really revolutionary, but it wouldn't have changed the world the
way his folk songs did, electricitly.
>
>
badlands420
> Well, that's my point, that one must listen to the lyrics.
And you don't think it's at all arrogant to expect other people to listen to
music in precisely the same context as you do, even going so far as to tell
them how they "must" do it? I don't recall Dylan ever imposing such
conditions on his listeners, so what the hell gives you that right?
>Dylan is famous for his lyrics, not so much his music, though he has a nice
>sense of melody and has worked with some good bands.
It's too bad that you're unable or unwilling to appreciate the depth that
Dylan's music is able to attain purely due to the deftness of his chord
structures, his instrumental phrasing, his picking patterns, his choice of
chord positions, or the impeccable tastefulness of the arrangements on his
more recent work. You're sitting here pretty much dismissing out of hand the
musical merit of Dylan's work, while at the same time trying to portray
yourself as the ultimate "real" Dylan fan. This is rather a perverse
dichotomy into which you've talked yourself.
Barbara
"badlands420" <bu...@hole.com> wrote in message
news:Ogp9g.176304$bm6.99838@fed1read04...
>
> > Anyone who listens to Bob Dylan and doesn't pay attention to the lyrics
> > is not a real fan.
>
> Anyone who refuses to acknowledge the musical quality of Dylan's material
is
> doing himself a profound disservice and has probably never picked up a
> guitar before.
I may not know all the lyrics to all his songs but the ones I grew up on and
played over and over before there were pcs to look up lyrics, I would replay
the record to memorize the words, those I definitely know. I am still
playing catch up.
I don't play guitar or any instrument but I can truely appreciate the
beautiful music he has created through the
years. I even would make my mother listen to the instrumentals and say to
her, isn't that beautiful, just listen to that!
So, what does this make me, not a real fan? a fake fan?
A fan is anyone who appreciates and artist either by his lyrics, music, or
both. I appreciate both.
badlands420
> I don't play guitar or any instrument but I can truely appreciate the
> beautiful music he has created through the
> years. I even would make my mother listen to the instrumentals and say to
> her, isn't that beautiful, just listen to that!
That's a good point. When I hear someone trying to discount the non-lyrical
merit of Dylan's compositions, it makes me wonder how long it's been since
they listened to Pat Garrett & Billy the Kid.
Temporary Like Achilles
badlands420 wrote:
> >> You people could take humility lessons from Richard Nixon.
I'm not taking sides on this issue -- I think both sides in the
argument make some valid points. However, that *is* a great, funny
line!
Temporary
J Buck
<Barbara wrote: I don't play guitar or any instrument but I can truely
That's also a good point. PG&BTK is a horribly underrated album.
Greg Hill
is... Neil Young is singing for US...he's an artist... its about time
somebody had the balls to come right out with it.. this president is a liar,
thief and murderer... he deserves much more than impeachment...so rock on,
Neil, we are singing along with you
"Wilbur Slice" <wil...@wilburslice.com> wrote in message
news:0vg662h84hk6b5kdu...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 10 May 2006 22:22:29 -0700, "badlands420" <bu...@hole.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>> The problem here is that Neil Young has lived in America for 40 years
>>> and
>>> he
>>> hasn't bothered to vote. If voting is totally useless then so is
>>> singing
>>> about impeaching the President.
>>
>>My problem isn't with his subject matter (he can whine about anything he
>>wants for all I care), but more with his semantics. If he titled the thing
>>"I Hope The US Impeaches Their President," that would be fine with me. But
>>when he says "Let's Impeach The President," he's possessively referring to
>>a
>>function of the United States government, which is elected by the voting
>>citizenry of the United States, of which he is not a member by his own
>>choosing. If he was so bothered about all this shit, you'd think it would
>>matter to him enough to take the citizenship test and go vote. Until he
>>does, he can either change the verbiage of his titles or shut his fuckin'
>>mouth.
>>
>
>
> First of all, even a US citizen can't really say "Let's" impeach the
> president. Only members of Congress can, technically speaking, do
> that. So while you might be pedantically correct about Neil not being
> able to do so, you are also pedantically wrong about his citizenship
> being the limiting factor. But who gives a crap? I think we all get
> what he means.
>
> And also, if he were to become a citizen and vote, it would add up to
> just about nothing. Bush was not elected because Neil Young didn't
> cast a vote. (In fact, IIRC, Young supported Bush in the last
> election - the dumb fuck). He has a VASTLY more powerful influence by
> writing his music and playing it and publicizing it. It might still
> not be significant enough to decide any issues, but it's a hell of a
> lot more potent than any single vote.
>
>
>
>
badlands420
> Neil Young is singing for US...he's an artist... its about time
> somebody had the balls to come right out with it..
I think it's great that we live in a society so free that some hippie
foreigner can move here and become fabulously wealthy by bitching about our
government.
Pilgrim
Technically, he's just bitching about the current administration. I'm
sure he's a supporter of Democratic government. In fact, that's
probably why he's bitching about the current administration.
Interesting things are beginning to happen, though, Rove's indictment
will be announced soon, and they're closing in on Cheney:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12774274/site/newsweek/
What is Bush's approval rating? About 29%?
Get the popcorn.
badlands420
> Technically, he's just bitching about the current administration.
Last time I checked, he's been bitching about American government longer
than I've been alive.
Pilgrim
What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground?
badlands420
> What if you knew her and found her dead on the ground?
Same thing happened to me once.
Sincerely,
Robert Blake