Modern Times: Ovid and Henry Timrod
Douglas Clark
elaborate? Seems Richard Thomas of Harvard(?) has spotted it.
--
Douglas Clark ..................... Bath, Somerset, UK ......
http://usergroup.plus.net .......... http://www.dgdclynx.plus.com
Douglas Clark
we have this from a communication between Chris Rollason and Richard Thomas
giving links......
Chris,
It's all in my article (pp. 35 ff.) in Oral Traditions 22.1:
http://journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/22i/Thomas.pdf
Jonny Thakkar, a graduate student at UChicago has added more Ovid and
Timrod:
http://www.askesian.com/index.php/2008/11/09/a-tree-with-roots/
And I suppose I should paste this in....written by Scott Warmuth, I think. I
hope nobody minds me posting this in rmd.
http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism/Posts/00004567.html
Dylan and Ovid
I think we might have mentioned this before ... from Stuff:
Nelson poet Cliff Fell found Dylan had used lines from prolific Roman poet
Ovid on his album Modern Times, recorded this year.
Last weekend he received an e-mail from New Zealand-born Harvard
University professor Richard Thomas congratulating him on the findings and
saying he would include them in his lectures and a book he was writing.
He teaches courses on the classics, including Ovid, and on Dylan.
Fell said he stumbled across the borrowed lines when he was studying for a
poem he was writing about Ovid.
He said two of Dylan's songs, Workingman's Blues and Ain't Talking, lifted
translated lines from Tristia, a book of poems by Ovid.
For example, Fell compared Dylan's line "no one can ever claim that I took
up arms against you" from Workingman's Blues with Ovid's "My cause is
better: no one can claim that I ever took up arms against you".
========
Comments
========
Scott Warmuth scripsit:
I saw your post regarding Dylan's use of Ovid lines, as discovered by poet C
l iff Fell.
A few weeks ago I noticed an article in New Zealand's The Nelson Mail by
Fell online at
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/nelsonmail/0,2106,3823946a6507,00.html.
In the article Fell cited four examples and wrote, "There may be more, for
all I know...Not that I'll be counting."
I decided to do some counting, and I was able to find a significant number
of other lines that Mr. Dylan seems to have been fond of beyond the ones
that Fell cited. I have included them below.
--------------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan "Ain't Talkin'" -
"Every nook and cranny has its tears"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 1, Section 3, Line 24 -
"every nook and corner had its tears"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Ain't Talkin'" -
"all my loyal and my much-loved companions"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 1, Section 3, Line 65 -
"loyal and much loved companions, bonded in brotherhood"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Ain't Talkin'" -
"I'll make the most of one last extra hour"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 1, Section 3, Line 68 -
"let me make the most of one last extra hour"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Workingman's Blues #2" -
"My cruel weapons have been put on the shelf"
Bob Dylan Ovid - Tristia, Book 2, Section 1, Line 179 -
"Show mercy, I beg you, shelve your cruel weapons"
(notice how Bob has reworked this line to make it rhyme with "You are dearer
to me than myself/As you yourself can see ," which he also borrowed from
Ovid)
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "The Levee's Gonna Break" -
"Some people got barely enough skin to cover their bones"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 4, Section 7, Line 51 -
"there's barely enough skin to cover my bones"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Ain't Talkin'" -
"I practice a faith that's been long abandoned"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 5, Section 7, Lines 63-64 -
"I practice terms long abandoned"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Ain't Talkin'" -
"They will tear your mind away from contemplation"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 5, Section 7, Line 66 -
"tear my mind from the contemplation of my woes"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Ain't Talkin'" -
"In the last outback at the world's end"
Ovid - Black Sea Letters, Book 2, Part 7, Line 66
"I'm in the last outback, at the world's end"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Ain't Talkin" -
"They approve of me and share my code"
Ovid - Black Sea Letters, Book 3, Part 2, Line 38 -
"who approve, and share, your code"
------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are the lines that Cliff Fell mentioned in his article:
Bob Dylan - "Working Man's Blues #2" -
"No one can ever claim/That I took up arms against you"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 2, Lines 51-53 -
"no one can claim that I ever took up arms against you"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Workingman's Blues #2" -
"To lead me off in a cheerful dance"
Tristia, Book 5, Section 12, Line 8 -
"or Niobe, bereaved, lead off some cheerful dance"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Workingman's Blues #2" -
"Tell me now, am I wrong in thinking/That you have forgotten me?"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 5, Section 13, Line 18 -
"that I'm wrong in thinking you have forgotten me!"
----------------------------------------------
Bob Dylan - "Workingman's Blues #2" -
"You are dearer to me than myself/As you yourself can see"
Ovid - Tristia, Book 5, Section 14, Line 2 -
"wife, dearer to me than myself, you yourself can see"
--
Douglas Clark ..................... Bath, Somerset, UK ......
http://usergroup.plus.net .......... http://www.dgdclynx.plus.com
"Douglas Clark" <dgdc...@dgdclynx.plus.com> wrote in message
news:VJidnc4coqnY4oPU...@posted.plusnet...
Jumbo
wrote:
>
> news:VJidnc4coqnY4oPU...@posted.plusnet...
>
> > Seems as though Bob has been transcribing lyrics again. Anyone like to
> > elaborate? Seems Richard Thomas of Harvard(?) has spotted it.
>
> > --
> > Douglas Clark ..................... Bath, Somerset, UK ......
> >http://usergroup.plus.net..........http://www.dgdclynx.plus.com
Thanks for this Douglas. As I recall you posted something about this
some while back and it was fascinating then too and it gave Martin
something to think about over his scrambled eggs, though he never came
back with the result of his digestive process. But (and this is silly
quibble not aimed at you, but offered as a general quadrivial
aside)... isn't Bob "adapting" the translator of Ovid not Ovid
exactly. As I say, this is a quibble but, in the matter of exact words
being used, possibly relevant. I love the way Bob does it. I think
it's great. Especially the Spenser in Tell ol' Bill, it's lovely.
Jumbo
Sorry Douglas, it wasn't you, it was Donald. I searched and found this
old thread:
Just Walkin'
wrote:
We know. Bob likes driving book sales. Increases literacy.
Check out Love and Theft...
Jumbo
Yeah, and what's great is stumbling across the odd one yourself
occasionally. I was watching Hustler (Paul Newman). I'd never seen it
before and the woman is looking out the window and she says "I've got
troubles, you've got troubles. Maybe we better leave each other
alone."
On a separate note, I'm still puzzled by the "sweet fat which sticks
to your ribs" ... what is that? I found the original in a Whitman
poem, but I still don't really know ... is it the paunch you get from
married life?
Douglas Clark
news:13479144-ecb8-4769...@w1g2000prk.googlegroups.com...
Thanks for the link. Chris Rollason thought that there had been previous
mention in rmd.
scottw
appear on Modern Times. These show up in the Peter Green translation
of The Erotic Poems, which includes The Art of Love:
"I've been conjuring up all these long dead souls from their crumblin'
tombs"
"Rollin' And Tumblin'"
"She conjures up long-dead souls from their crumbling sepulchres"
The Amores Book 1, Section 8, lines 17 - 18
=========================
"I ain't nobody's house boy, I ain't nobody's well trained maid"
"Rollin' And Tumblin'" -
"You must get yourself a houseboy and a well-trained maid, who can
hint what gifts will be welcome."
The Amores Book 1, Section 8, lines 88 - 89
===============================
"If I catch my opponents ever sleepin'/I'll just slaughter them where
they lie"
"Ain't Talkin'"
"Night attacks are a great thing. Catch your opponents sleeping and
unarmed. Just slaughter them where they lie."
The Amores Book 1, Section 9, lines 21 - 22
In the edition that I have the "houseboy" line and the "slaughter"
line appear on facing pages.
Scott Warmuth
Albuquerque, NM