What are your Dylan words of the day?
Maya Allison
discovered (even if I've heard it many times already). It follows me
around, waiting behind corners to jump out and stun me, it whispers in my
ear, or it simply keeps rolling around in my mind, flavoring everything in
the mix.
Today it is:
A question in your nerves is lit
Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
Tricia J
"I knooooow!"
"Exactly!"
"rural"
"Weeeeeeeeellll... "
I can't wait to hear "agrarian"
Don't Tread On Me
someone who understands the responsibility that comes with his freedom" and:
But this one struck me recently: "I am goin' to teach peace to the conquered
/ I'm gonna tame the proud"
Pretty bold statement, but I like it.
--
Hamp Nettles
www.rovingblade.com/dylan
"Maya Allison" <mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B8AC74F5.5B8F%mayaa...@earthlink.net...
Lloyd Fonvielle
"They drove that car as far as they could -- abandoned it out West . . ."
HoopsNHops
President_dudley
--WigWam
Jonny Thakkar
"Maya Allison" <mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B8AC74F5.5B8F%mayaa...@earthlink.net...
karen
They tell me to be discreet for all intended purposes,
They tell me revenge is sweet and from where they stand, I'm sure it is.
But I feel nothing for their game where beauty goes unrecognized,
All I feel is heat and flame and all I see are dark eyes.
From silhouetted anger to manufactured peace,
Answers of emptiness, voice vacancies
- and the ubiquitous everybody must get stoned.
tom .
i got the feeling that something ain't right.
i'm so scared in case i fall off my chair,
and i'm wondering how i'll get down the stairs.
clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right...
here i am stuck in the middle with you.
(bob is so freaking awesome sometimes!)
Pat Fitzgerald
Denis
Denis
Wellcome Lion
Maya Allison <mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<B8AC74F5.5B8F%mayaa...@earthlink.net>...
Kevin Thomson
As great as you are a man,
You'll never be greater than yourself."
Kevin Thomson
Some people they ain't human, they got no heart or soul
Jeff Wells
Yesterday, oddly enough, I was walking around with "working on a guru" stuck
in my head. This morning, so far, it's "always carry a lightbulb."
Maya Allison
> "guernsey cow"
>
> "I knooooow!"
>
> "Exactly!"
>
> "rural"
>
> "Weeeeeeeeellll... "
>
> I can't wait to hear "agrarian"
Um...??? Is this another chopped liver thing? (<--not a Dylan quote...)
Mad Dan
currently find SO FUCKING USEFUL are:
Say what you want, I have heard it all
RWSURF
>--WigWam
>
No no no! It's
"Wiggle like a big faaat snaaaake."
-Wiggle Waggle
Maya Allison
> I'm on the fringes of the night, fighting back tears that I can't control
> Some people they ain't human, they got no heart or soul
Funny, how the things you have the hardest time parting with
Are the things you need the least
Bkindmoore
"Well, my wrist was empty
But my nerves were kickin'
Tickin' like a clock"
and
"The man standin' next to me, his head was exploding,
Well, I was prayin' the pieces wouldn't fall on me"
CPyle2bob
plain stuck in my head..
FEVER..in the morning...fever all through the night...
(ouchiemama is that a good cut off this ladies only cd)
squeegee your third eye
You been TEEEASIN' me
Maya Allison <mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<B8AC74F5.5B8F%mayaa...@earthlink.net>...
Standtapping
i always remember this one
R Murray
RWSURF
>
>(ouchiemama is that a good cut off this ladies only cd)
Yes it is. Even though I don't qualify for the cd club, a kind soul sent me
the mp3 of Fever. :-)
Does anyone know when and where this was performed? Bob is in great voice and
the guitar and keyboards cook. It has his cadre of black backup singers, so
that means sometime in the 80s??
Rick
don wiley
And they made a killer out of him is what what they did."
On Thu, 07 Mar 2002 06:38:06 GMT, Maya Allison
<mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
Pongo616
now".......brownsville girl
this one comes up alot with me
Kelly Huckeby
news:2mLh8.35886$xG....@news2.bloor.is...
The past couple days i've been walking around with, "I've been walking
40 miles of bad road.
If the bible is right the world will explode." Can't even explain why.
Just seems relevent lately.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
karen
Very cute tom.
Napster - RIP
Maris Sayner
> Every few days a line from Dylan will be hanging in the air, newly
> discovered (even if I've heard it many times already). It follows me
> around, waiting behind corners to jump out and stun me, it whispers in my
> ear, or it simply keeps rolling around in my mind, flavoring everything in
> the mix.
>
> Today it is:
>
> A question in your nerves is lit
> Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
'Ya must be livin' in the shadow of some kind of evil star'
M>
keith.smith11
"Maya Allison" <mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B8AC74F5.5B8F%mayaa...@earthlink.net...
karen
This comp should have a warning on the cover.
Mike & Karen
MICHEAL MAY
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
don wiley
From the disease of conceit."
and
"What good am I?"
Bendikjoe
Tricia J
<mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Tricia J wrote:
>
>> "guernsey cow"
see "Bob Dylan's 115th Dream"
>>
>> "I knooooow!"
I can only hear this in my head so far
>>
>> "Exactly!"
>>
>> "rural"
>>
>> "Weeeeeeeeellll... "
Rome Interview Part 1
>>
>> I can't wait to hear "agrarian"
another one that only exists in my head until I get part 2 of the Rome
Interview
>
>Um...??? Is this another chopped liver thing? (<--not a Dylan quote...)
he he - "Is this another chopped liver thing" wouldn't be bad though
would it?
>
Tricia J
(sobs quietly)
nates
> >> "I knooooow!"
>
> I can only hear this in my head so far
You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go
- nate
Tumulty
T.
Lloyd Fonvielle
> I asked Fat Nancy not to lean upon the shelf.
Tumulty, try to have a little compassion. As fat as Nancy is, she'll
never be fatter than herself.
Sam Garrett
> Every few days a line from Dylan will be hanging in the air, newly
> discovered (even if I've heard it many times already).
"You're dancin' with whom they tell you to
Or you don't dance at all."
It's tough out there
High water everywhere
AND
Wond'rin' if she'd changed at all
If her hair was still red.
and a hundred others that come up often
Sam Garrett
karen
Dear Chopped Liver,
I am again requesting you to e-mail me regarding the above.
We can't have you puddling up the floors around here.
Someone may slip and fall.
Bkindmoore
There's beauty in the sunrise in the sky"
and (because the weekend is upon us)
"Oh, oh, are we gonna fly
Down in the easy chair!"
Bkindmoore
Tricia J
touche!
Martin Golan
All sorts of garbage is happening at work, everything incredibly tense though the basics of my job have not changed. So I announced to myself: "The game is the same, it's just up another level."
Fit perfectly.
Martin (in Montclair)
-------------------------------
http://www.mywifeslastlover.com/
Tumulty
You've been rollin' your eyes, you've been teasin' me.
T.
Sigrid Trumpy
Tumulty
> I recently had my first "Dylan words" from L&T.
> All sorts of garbage is happening at work, everything incredibly tense though the basics of my job have not changed. So I announced to myself: "The game is the same, it's just up another level."
What looks good in the day , at night is another thing.
Maya Allison
and others being the "punkest, funniest, most anarchic, cerebral,
paranoid, important and quintessentially American" artists of our time
(quotes from NYPress excerpt at botttom):
In the Dylan line of the day thread, bend...@aol.com (Bendikjoe)
wrote:
> Always carry a light bulb.
>
> (not a song, but an interview)
Which reminded me of a question: I read that Pynchon and Dylan knew
each other through Farina (no, I didn't read Hajdu's book), and I
thought of Pynchon's "Byron the Immortal Light Bulb" (Gravity's
Rainbow) when I saw "Don't Look Back" the other night.
I started looking for a tangible connection between Dylan's giant
necessary light bulb (that "once blew up a house") and Pynchon's
immortal light bulb (which is a threat to capitalism)... were light
bulbs just an interesting topic back then? I certainly found them
interesting back then, but I was a toddler.
Looking around on Google, I found a hilarious post from 1990,
reproducing a letter which "proves" that Thomas Pynchon is not JD
Salinger (as is often conjectured, playfully) but is actually Bob
Dylan (which means he wrote "Gravity's Rainbow" when he was about
14?).
Anyway, it looks as if Pynchon and Dylan probably didn't know each
other well, the light bulb connection is just a coincidence, if on a
zeitgeist level, sooo...
Why am I posting this? Reading the past Dylan-Pynchon posts, and the
various recluse authors/poets/musicians who might in fact be someone
else, I started to realize that what I think of as "Dylan thought" is
only one expression of this universe of thought. I have yet to hear a
name for the kind of thought that grows around him, Pynchon and others
(even Laurie Anderson in my own mind's working). It's certainly
connected to the Beats, the cultural revolution beginning in the 60's,
etc., but these don't do it justice. It has something to do with
Postmodernism (I've seen some PM's claim Dylan), perhaps that what
this is. Whatever the term is must include a language of engaging
with pop culture and American history and spiritual truths, all with a
certain humor and playfulness, all with the pain of turning them
inside out for the better ("badly-into-madness-into-joy"). Perhaps
because we are still in this growth of thought, but if the movement
hasn't been identified yet, I have a feeling it will be, and as a
revolutionary one.
I know these interconnections are obvious to anyone on rmd but a few,
but for me it was, well, kind of a light bulb going off in my head. I
was hoping someone could point me in a direction with this, is Hajdu's
book where I should start? Perhaps not. I'm mostly interested in
looking at the themes and innovations in common, ways of thinking and
the like.
Below, also cited in parts by the revered President Dudley and tom,
are a few things I found on-line:
---------------
From the NYPress review of "Positively 4th Street":
"Amazing. Pynchon and Dylan in the same broad social circle. Did they
know each other? Did they get along? This is a beautiful thing to
learn. The punkest, funniest, most anarchic, cerebral, paranoid,
important and quintessentially American novelist of the second half of
the 20th century moved in the same circles, might even have known, the
punkest, funniest, most anarchic, cerebral, paranoid, important and
quintessentially American musician. I'd love to know if they ever
really met; and if they did, where. And what did they talk about?
Pynchon writes appealingly of his youthful beatnik days in the
introduction to his short-story collection Slow Learner, but he
doesn't mention Dylan.
"So who knows? It's a longshot, but maybe Pynchon played Ezra Pound to
the younger Dylan's T.S. Eliot, shaking him by the shoulders, telling
him no, forget this folk crap, forget Seeger, forget Bikel, forget
sandals, get louder, wilder, sicker -- start breaking stuff -- it's
your business to freak out precisely these people." (referring to the
"precious" Greenwich Village scene)
http://www.nypress.com/14/16/food/apples.cfm
and from tom:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&selm=3A770D30.BE7789A5%40hotmail.com
more scattered about, mostly in discussions of Postmodernism
eddie
with own behavior:
"What makes the wind wanna blow tonight
Don't feel like crossing the street, and my car ain't actin' right.
Called home, everybody seemed to have moved away.
My conscience is beginning to bother me today."
Maya Allison <mayaa...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<B8AC74F5.5B8F%mayaa...@earthlink.net>...
> Every few days a line from Dylan will be hanging in the air, newly
RWSURF
>Don't feel like crossing the street, and my car ain't actin' right.
>Called home, everybody seemed to have moved away.
>My conscience is beginning to bother me today."
What's that from??
Maya Allison
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late.
raven
RWSURF wrote:
Shot of Love
Lloyd Fonvielle
[Which reminds me of these lines from Seamus Heaney:
"Running water never disappointed.
"Crossing water always furthered something.
"Stepping stones were waypoints of the soul."]
Maya Allison
And glowed like burnin' coal
Tricia J
wrote:
>the comic book and me, we caught the bus
the comic book and me (just us) we caught the bus?
Britman51
dave harrison
annotated delusions time could be fixed while the law looks the other
way. I'd pick 1951 play the music across the spectrum, someone else
might say '47. The sun comes out the rain stops the way things happen
you need a prism nobody has to meet anyone HCE Joyce said. Blazes
Boylan. Everytime go to funerals these days think of the funeral
scenes in Ulysees, in and out the carriages. Wear a long black crombie
came from the son-in-law of my gran's last beau, Sid. Stand on the
pavement, sit in the bar. Discuss the deceased. Here comes everybody
there goes everybody spend most of your life imagining it's you the
cart is pulling across the heavens the moment dawn breaks until the
day you see it pulling towards the cliff. The books are there, the
letters are there. Invent it all and not give a damm.
Best Regards
Dave Harrison
''These are days when no one should rely unduly on his 'competence.'
Strength lies in improvisation. All the decisive blows are struck
left-handed.'
'One-Way Street,' Walter Benjamin. Berlin 1926
''Well it's always been my nature to take chances
my right hand drawing back while my left hand advances'
ml...@columbia.edu (Maya Allison) wrote in message news:<932ccf44.02030...@posting.google.com>...
karen
right over my head, but I enjoyed reading it nevertheless.
you are very well read it's well known.
ml...@columbia.edu (Maya Allison) wrote in message news:<932ccf44.02030...@posting.google.com>...
Henry Porter
news:f78b15a.02030...@posting.google.com:
> you're compressing, the landscape rolls, close-up the frames are
> annotated delusions time could be fixed while the law looks the other
> way. I'd pick 1951 play the music across the spectrum, someone else
> might say '47. The sun comes out the rain stops the way things happen
> you need a prism nobody has to meet anyone HCE Joyce said. Blazes
> Boylan. Everytime go to funerals these days think of the funeral
> scenes in Ulysees, in and out the carriages. Wear a long black crombie
Did Boylan happen to strike you, sharply, upside the head with his large
red crowbar of a thing?
Or does this just mean that Afghani hash is still circulating?
HP
William Gray
"Henry Porter" <henry...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns91CC7139D80C4he...@65.32.1.6...
gold-stamped
glories (follies) of my youth, restored in a minds-eye-moment of reverie.The
old days are gone forever, and these here ain't far behind........
Michael G Smith
nor does it discuss any themes their work might have in common. There
are a few quotes from Pynchon concerning Richard Farina (obtained from
Pynchon via fax!) that are amusing to read but you can read these
quickly while standing in the aisle of a bookstore. The rest of the
book isn't very good.
> Why am I posting this? Reading the past Dylan-Pynchon posts, and the
> various recluse authors/poets/musicians who might in fact be someone
> else, I started to realize that what I think of as "Dylan thought" is
> only one expression of this universe of thought. I have yet to hear a
> name for the kind of thought that grows around him, Pynchon and others
> (even Laurie Anderson in my own mind's working). It's certainly
> connected to the Beats, the cultural revolution beginning in the 60's,
> etc., but these don't do it justice. It has something to do with
> Postmodernism (I've seen some PM's claim Dylan), perhaps that what
> this is. Whatever the term is must include a language of engaging
> with pop culture and American history and spiritual truths, all with a
> certain humor and playfulness, all with the pain of turning them
> inside out for the better ("badly-into-madness-into-joy").
I understand this comparison and I agree with it - though I can't
think of any other American artists (beginning with the "cultural
revolution" in the 60's at least) that I would put in the same league
as Dylan and Pynchon. I like Toni Morrison and Don DeLillo but their
work seems more a by-product of post-modernism rather than the other
way around (the trailblazing destructive playfulness of Pynchon and
Dylan).
I don't know if you came across this in your Google search but here's
something I wrote last year on what I perceived to be a shared theme
of Tangled Up in Blue and Vineland:
Cheers,
Michael
Maya Allison
> I have no idea what you are talkin about in fact most of it sailed
> right over my head, but I enjoyed reading it nevertheless.
Well, very kind of you to say. I once made this rule to myself that I
wouldn't post any items longer than a certain length, because it is a
sign that it's not fully boiled-down, and I invariably regret it when
I do. This post last night was a case in point. This morning I woke
up with the epic-post hangover, thinking to myself "oh no, I didn't
actually post that did I? Groan..." I would have been better off
hollering drinking songs in the middle of Times Square, at least it
wouldn't be archived by Google. Not that I was drunk when I posted,
but I was punchy and rushed -- Spring is in the air in NY and it's
making me act funny.
But I have been thinking that Dylan is way more of the best kind of
punk than I ever realized -- not afraid to shake things up. And
Pynchon seems linked, and this morning, in the posting hangover blues
I also thought Godard could complete this in a way, except of course
he's French... maybe David Lynch... Patti Smith... we need more women
on this list.
Oh no, there I go again, approaching maximum post-length. Oweee.
Maya Allison
to read it now.
Dylan and Pynchon may be in their own sort of league, but there are a
lot of threads of influence coming and going from them, as well as
possible parallels in breakthroughs by other artists. When you say
someone's work is a byproduct of postmodernism, it suggests that they
didn't actively engage and participate in developing new expressions
of whatever this is ("postmodernism" is not an adequate term for me,
it's been so abused). I'm wondering if it's possible to say there is
ongoing a Gestalt-type shift in interactions with popular American
culture -- I'm not close to being able to formulate it at all, it's
still in the "Hey look! Two brilliant guys with ideas about
light-bulbs" seedling phase.
I suppose my difficulty getting at this light-bulb feeling is like
that feeling of the tide changing, but being so in the middle of it
that one can't observe it except to say "wow, this is amazing and
important..."
mikey...@hotmail.com (Michael G Smith) wrote:
<snip>
I understand this comparison and I agree with it - though I can't
think of any other American artists (beginning with the "cultural
revolution" in the 60's at least) that I would put in the same league
as Dylan and Pynchon. I like Toni Morrison and Don DeLillo but their
work seems more a by-product of post-modernism rather than the other
way around (the trailblazing destructive playfulness of Pynchon and
Dylan).
<snip>
Henry Porter
> he's French... maybe David Lynch... Patti Smith... we need more women
> on this list.
Not exactly sure what you're looking for, but perhaps you should check out
some stuff by PJ Harvey. She's been known to shake things up.
You may also want to track down a (defunct?) band called Lotion. Pynchon
was a fan of theirs and was known to attend gigs; he contributed an essay
as liner notes to their album "Nobody's Cool." Some said the liner notes
were the only interesting thing about the album.
> Oh no, there I go again, approaching maximum post-length. Oweee.
That's close to what Molly Bloom said to Blazes Boylan one afternoon.
HP
Maya Allison
>Not exactly sure what you're looking for, but perhaps you should
check out
>some stuff by PJ Harvey. She's been known to shake things up.
>You may also want to track down a (defunct?) band called Lotion.
Pynchon
>was a fan of theirs and was known to attend gigs; he contributed an
essay
>as liner notes to their album "Nobody's Cool." Some said the liner
notes
>were the only interesting thing about the album.
I adore PJ Harvey, just discovering her (I'm way behind my peers, and
everyone for that matter, in the music department). And I just found
the liner notes on-line, to which you refer:
http://www.themodernword.com/pynchon/pynchon_essays_lotion.html
Thanks for the ideas. This is fun.
karen
>
> > I have no idea what you are talkin about in fact most of it sailed
> > right over my head, but I enjoyed reading it nevertheless.
>
> Well, very kind of you to say. I once made this rule to myself that I
> wouldn't post any items longer than a certain length, because it is a
> sign that it's not fully boiled-down, and I invariably regret it when
> I do. This post last night was a case in point. This morning I woke
> up with the epic-post hangover, thinking to myself "oh no, I didn't
> actually post that did I? Groan..."
YEP been there. Computer mfgs. should hide the send button or put a
delay on it or add a last chance to save your dignity switch. At
least a "do you really want to send THIS" message should pop up.
I would have been better off
> hollering drinking songs in the middle of Times Square, at least it
> wouldn't be archived by Google. Not that I was drunk when I posted,
> but I was punchy and rushed -- Spring is in the air in NY and it's
> making me act funny.
A) can I join you, we could do a duet? B) Not just spring in the air
in NY and crocus popping - It is fallout trauma still coursing in our
brains and forcing us to behave irrationally. C) Thank you, you
enlightened me, unintentionally.
>
> But I have been thinking that Dylan is way more of the best kind of
> punk than I ever realized -- not afraid to shake things up. And
> Pynchon seems linked, and this morning, in the posting hangover blues
> I also thought Godard could complete this in a way, except of course
> he's French... maybe David Lynch... Patti Smith... we need more women
> on this list.
>
> Oh no, there I go again, approaching maximum post-length. Oweee.
Lost me again, oh well I get the sentiment at least.
RonE
14 or so. I was 19 when I read it for the first time. And if that is too
much too handle, at least read "The Crying of Lot 49" for an introduction to
Gravity's Rainbow. You will learn all about "anit-paranoia", and it's
relationship to graphical novels......
And contrary to what everyone else believes, the Hajdu book is worth
reading.
Good luck, but I did not understand your post either - there's no
connection, in my mind.
Later.....
Maya Allison wrote in message
<932ccf44.02030...@posting.google.com>...
Maya Allison
> ml...@columbia.edu (Maya Allison) wrote:
> > rin...@yahoo.com (karen) wrote:
> >
> > > I have no idea what you are talkin about in fact most of it sailed
> > > right over my head, but I enjoyed reading it nevertheless.
> >
> > Well, very kind of you to say. I once made this rule to myself that I
> > wouldn't post any items longer than a certain length, because it is a
> > sign that it's not fully boiled-down, and I invariably regret it when
> > I do. This post last night was a case in point. This morning I woke
> > up with the epic-post hangover, thinking to myself "oh no, I didn't
> > actually post that did I? Groan..."
>
> YEP been there. Computer mfgs. should hide the send button or put a
> delay on it or add a last chance to save your dignity switch. At
> least a "do you really want to send THIS" message should pop up.
Or better yet, a "take it back" button -- we can't have one in real
life, why can't we at least have one in computerland?
> I would have been better off
> > hollering drinking songs in the middle of Times Square, at least it
> > wouldn't be archived by Google. Not that I was drunk when I posted,
> > but I was punchy and rushed -- Spring is in the air in NY and it's
> > making me act funny.
>
> A) can I join you, we could do a duet?
It's a plan. What would a good drinking song by Dylan be?
> B) Not just spring in the air
> in NY and crocus popping - It is fallout trauma still coursing in our
> brains and forcing us to behave irrationally.
I have noticed that I'm a LOT more spacey lately, with a tendency to
glaze over at odd, important moments, like when I'm hitting the "post
now" button. I thought I was just getting stupider...
> C) Thank you, you enlightened me, unintentionally.
??? Well, uh (glazing over) uh...
<snipping my own ramblins>
> > Oh no, there I go again, approaching maximum post-length. Oweee.
>
> Lost me again, oh well I get the sentiment at least.
It's okay, I lost myself!
Maya Allison
"And contrary to what everyone else believes, the Hajdu book is worth
reading.
"Good luck, but I did not understand your post either - there's no
connection, in my mind."
Thanks for the info. The connection isn't concrete, I meant it as a
question inspired by the NYPress article on Hajdu's book, but it was a
half-baked post (that darn post button is just too responsive!), I'll
come back to it if it ever forms.
-Maya
Christine Morgan
> Every few days a line from Dylan will be hanging in the air, newly
> discovered (even if I've heard it many times already). It follows me
> around, waiting behind corners to jump out and stun me, it whispers in my
> ear, or it simply keeps rolling around in my mind, flavoring everything in
> the mix.
>
> Today it is:
>
> A question in your nerves is lit
> Yet you know there is no answer fit to satisfy
There's a whole lot of people dying tonight
From the disease of conceit,
Whole lot of people crying tonight
From the disease of conceit.
Bkindmoore
To be just like I am
But everybody wants you
To be just like them
sd9
>Subject: Re: What are your Dylan words of the day?
>From: bkind...@aol.com (Bkindmoore)
>Date: 3/9/2002 10:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <20020310011802...@mb-fk.aol.com>
Walk upside-down inside handcuffs
Kick my legs to crash it off
Say okay, I have had enough
What else can you show me?
Howard Mirowitz
For everyone's information:
HCE = Humphrey Chimpden Earwicker = Here Comes Everybody, the hero of
Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. His wife is Anna Livia Plurabelle, or ALP.
Blazes Boylan = the lover of Molly Bloom, wife of Leopold Bloom, hero of
Joyce's _Ulysses_. There is a scene in Ulysses where Bloom is sitting in a
bar, where he has stopped for a quick pint on the way home from Paddy
Dignam's funeral, thinking of the bed springs creaking in his flat as he
imagines Boylan banging Molly.
As Bloom and Molly are the Odysseus and Penelope of _Ulysses_, so HCE and
ALP are the Adam and Eve, Osiris and Isis, Jesus and Mary (and Mary
Magdalene), David and Bathsheba, Samson and Delilah, Joyce and Nora
Barnacle -- the archetypal Man and Woman -- of the _Wake_.
Hope this helps,
H.
Howard Mirowitz
Your thoughts make sense to me! ... I think ...
If I understand what you're driving at correctly, then I would say that the
"movement" toward the mode of American artistic expression you're groping
for started in the '60's in Greenwich Village and on the West Coast. The
Village contributed left-wing politics, beatnik folk music and jazz and
poetry; the West Coast added hedonism, drugs (especially LSD, with the Acid
Tests) and a psychedelic tinge of anti-reality.
The musician who probably took this "language of engaging with pop culture
and American history and spiritual truths, all with a certain humor and
playfulness, all with the pain of turning them inside out for the better
("badly-into-madness-into-joy")." out to its Dadaist extreme was probably
Frank Zappa. Some others operating in this realm contemporaneously were
Tuli Kupferberg and the Fugs, and to some extent the Turtles (who had a very
close relationship with Zappa, and who famously charted on the Top 40 with
their cover of "It Ain't Me, Babe"). Later in the '60's, as the Vietnam
War escalated, Country Joe and the Fish (with "Fixin' To Die Blues" and
Arlo Guthrie (with "Alice's Restaurant" and "Comin' Into Los Angeles")
recast this language in a country-folk idiom.
In literature, I would identify Ken Kesey, Joseph Heller and especially Tom
Wolfe as contemporaries of Pynchon who shared his stylistic predilections.
Parts of _Catch-22_ seem to me to echo the manic insanity of _V_ and
_Gravity's Rainbow_, as do many passages from _One Flew Over the Cuckoo's
Nest_. But Tom Wolfe's early works of countercultural reportage, like _The
Kandy-Kolored Tangerine-Flake Streamline Baby_, _The Electric Kool-Aid Acid
Test_ and _The Pump House Gang_, literally read like Pynchon transposed to
the world of nonfiction.
The Pop Artists -- Rauschenberg, Stella, Warhol (whose links with Dylan have
been well chronicled) and especially Lichtenstein, with his stylized
blown-up cartoon icons -- also seem to me to carry the scent you're trying
to track. And the Frank Zappas of "pop" pictorial art, R. Crumb and the
other cartoonists of Zap Comix, came out of the same West Coast milieu that
produced Zappa himself.
I think you're definitely onto something here, Maya. A kind of '60's
American Bizzaro cultural infrastructure.
H.
Maya Allison <ml...@columbia.edu> wrote in message
news:932ccf44.02030...@posting.google.com...
> I'm looking for ideas on where to look for info on Dylan and Pynchon
> and others being the "punkest, funniest, most anarchic, cerebral,
> paranoid, important and quintessentially American" artists of our time
> (quotes from NYPress excerpt at botttom):
>
<snip>
Lloyd Fonvielle
Yes, but I don't see Dylan in this context, except in the most superficial ways
-- just as I no longer see Godard in the context of the French New Wave. Dylan
and Godard are so much bigger than these contexts -- or grew out of them so
quickly -- that it can be misleading to try and understand them in relation to
them. This was the mistake Hajdu made in "Positively 4th Street" -- the many
tempting connections between Farina and Dylan end up telling us a lot about the
Village in the early Sixties, and a lot about Farina, but very little about
Dylan.
Ultimately, what's really interesting about Dylan and Godard is the ways
they diverge from the artistic movements within which they came to prominence.
The same would hold true, for example, for the ways Cezanne and Degas diverge
from Impressionism -- looking at their work as a development or subset of
Impressionism actually constricts one's understanding of it.
karen
A good Dylan drinking song.
Actually, Thinking about this I've done this before. I sang Subterr.
Home. blues in front of the "molly wee" on the msg '01 (pre-show)
night to a few hip-hop street people. I was just a bit tipsy. If I was
riproaring drunk I would have never gotten those words out.
I was trying to convince them that bob was the first rapper. I had
witnesses. Jacki and Jane were quite amused. Annie were you there for
that, I disremember.
Anyway, we could do "all I really want to do" with the ear piercing
high notes.
karen
> tric...@aardvark.net.au (Tricia J) wrote in message news:<3c882189...@news.aardvark.net.au>...
> > On 7 Mar 2002 15:04:28 -0800, rin...@yahoo.com (karen) wrote:
> >
> > >cpyl...@aol.com (CPyle2bob) wrote in message news:<20020307111153...@mb-mq.aol.com>...
> > >> well, they aren't bob's words, but i heard bob sing them and now they are just
> > >> plain stuck in my head..
> > >>
> > >> FEVER..in the morning...fever all through the night...
> > >>
> > >> (ouchiemama is that a good cut off this ladies only cd)
> > >
> > >This comp should have a warning on the cover.
> >
> > (sobs quietly)
>
> Dear Chopped Liver,
>
> I am again requesting you to e-mail me regarding the above.
> We can't have you puddling up the floors around here.
> Someone may slip and fall.
Everyone stop feeling sorry for Tricia. I burned it for her and
emailed her begging her to please allow me to send her the freebee and
she hasn't responded!
Tricia, PLEASE let me send you this. SHEESH! Do I have to throw in a
2002 show to make sure you will take this other one! ;)
Kenneth Wilson
Howrd Mirowitx wrote:
> > The Pop Artists -- Rauschenberg, Stella, Warhol (whose links with Dylan
have
> > been well chronicled) and especially Lichtenstein, with his stylized
> > blown-up cartoon icons -- also seem to me to carry the scent you're
trying
> > to track. And the Frank Zappas of "pop" pictorial art, R. Crumb and the
> > other cartoonists of Zap Comix, came out of the same West Coast milieu
that
> > produced Zappa himself.
> >
> > I think you're definitely onto something here, Maya. A kind of '60's
> > American Bizzaro cultural infrastructure.
>
> Yes, but I don't see Dylan in this context, except in the most superficial
ways
I don't either, and one reason is that the work most of those guys produced
seems relatively superficial itself. Maybe I'm not getting Zappa at all, and
I must admit I never listened to *most* of his records, but what I did hear
always struck me as one part musical cleverness for the sake of cleverness
(springing from his love for Varese and the like, granted) and one part
silliness for the sake of silliness. I suppose he showed a sharp eye in his
lyrics, but he never moved me or taught me anything, not once. There is a
time for cynicism, sure, but cynicism is relatively shallow nonetheless.
Wolfe and Kesey are (were) brilliant reporters. As for the Pop artists...
some I enjoy a little, but just how much do they really have to say? And how
far you can you take that stuff? Dylan works out of deep and life-affirming
traditions, musical and otherwise. He can dramatize absurdity, and he can
mock and get laughs, but he can also reflect and mourn and rage and
celebrate and woo ... , etc.
Ken
Lloyd Fonvielle
> Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:
> Howrd Mirowitx wrote:
> > > The Pop Artists -- Rauschenberg, Stella, Warhol (whose links with Dylan
> have
> > > been well chronicled) and especially Lichtenstein, with his stylized
> > > blown-up cartoon icons -- also seem to me to carry the scent you're
> trying
> > > to track. And the Frank Zappas of "pop" pictorial art, R. Crumb and the
> > > other cartoonists of Zap Comix, came out of the same West Coast milieu
> that
> > > produced Zappa himself.
> > >
> > > I think you're definitely onto something here, Maya. A kind of '60's
> > > American Bizzaro cultural infrastructure.
> >
> > Yes, but I don't see Dylan in this context, except in the most superficial
> ways
>
> I don't either, and one reason is that the work most of those guys produced
> seems relatively superficial itself. Maybe I'm not getting Zappa at all, and
> I must admit I never listened to *most* of his records, but what I did hear
> always struck me as one part musical cleverness for the sake of cleverness
> (springing from his love for Varese and the like, granted) and one part
> silliness for the sake of silliness. I suppose he showed a sharp eye in his
> lyrics, but he never moved me or taught me anything, not once.
Zappa had his moments, actually a lot of them:
"Brown shoes
"Don't make it.
"Quit school,
"Why fake it?"
These are words to live by.
And what about:
"Fuzzy dice, bongos in the back --
"My ship of love is ready to attack."
karen
knack for being a seed of inspiration.
George Spanos
> Maybe I'm not getting Zappa at all, and
> I must admit I never listened to *most* of his records, but what I did hear
> always struck me as one part musical cleverness for the sake of cleverness
> (springing from his love for Varese and the like, granted) and one part
> silliness for the sake of silliness. I suppose he showed a sharp eye in his
> lyrics, but he never moved me or taught me anything, not once.
I always thought that "Trouble Every Day" from the "Freak Out" album had a
lot to say, both musically and lyrically. I always liked the line: "I'm
not black, but there's a whole lot of times I wished I could say I'm not
white."
But, generally, Ken, I agree with you; Frank Zappa is no Bob Dylan.
While we're on this subject, however, I wonder what folks here think about a
quote that is often attributed to Zappa:
"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture."
Seems to me that Frank would see us as a bunch of dancin' fools, to harken
back to another song of his that I like.
George
Bill Goldman
Zappa does a hilarious impression of Dylan singing while under the influence
of sleeping tablets (or just very very laidback), on some album I've never
been able to track down since I heard it a few years ago.
He was also the best rock guitarist ever, along with Hendrix, arguably.
He could be a pretty good satirist, I always thought.
He had a gift of gathering around him some very good musicians, and there
are wonderful moments - and even quarters of an hour! - on many of his
albums.
Bkindmoore
Maya Allison
> I got every word you said that time!
phew!
> A good Dylan drinking song.
>
> Actually, Thinking about this I've done this before. I sang Subterr.
> Home. blues in front of the "molly wee" on the msg '01 (pre-show)
> night to a few hip-hop street people. I was just a bit tipsy. If I was
> riproaring drunk I would have never gotten those words out.
I love that story! That's what I'm going to do next time I'm in that state.
> I was trying to convince them that bob was the first rapper. I had
> witnesses. Jacki and Jane were quite amused. Annie were you there for
> that, I disremember.
>
> Anyway, we could do "all I really want to do" with the ear piercing
> high notes.
I actually don't know that song, vaguely familiar at best. In the meantime,
perhaps "Summer Days" -- it'd be a blast to belt out, fully uninhibited,
"but I know a place where there's still something going on!" and watch the
people try to pretend like they don't notice us. I propose a toast to the
king!
Maya Allison
Thanks H. It's nice to know that if I'm totally out to lunch, at least I'm
not dining alone with this idea! Seriously folks... I'm still groping, but
an aspect of what I'm looking to comprehend is the distinction between
riffing on popular culture and engaging it in such a way as to change its
course. I don't know enough about Zappa to comment, but Warhol... might
work, less in the fine arts than in his elevation of advertising to a form
of homage to commercial images -- I loved that story of Dylan taking one of
his prints as payment for a film appearance (did I get that right?). I'm
zeroing in on the aspect that pays homage to, and challenges notions about,
what has come before in tradition and American culture, which I find quite
different from being either derivative or strictly rebellious. Dylan
clearly reveres his musical ancestry, but doesn't restrict himself to
replaying it. That's as far as I've gotten.
Howard Mirowitz
Kenneth Wilson <kfw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:003701c1c8a5$8f1ebd40$cfd4bfa8@u8f5h7...
Well, Ken, you and Lloyd are right, of course. Dylan clearly transcended
not only this context, but all the other contexts he's found himself in --
those he sought out, those he was shoehorned into and those he invented
himself -- throughout his career. But we are looking at him from a vantage
point 40 years in the future of the time we're discussing. Back in those
days, it wasn't as obvious as it is now that Dylan would end up being
incredibly culturally significant, listed in Time Magazine's 100 most
influential figures of teh XXth Century, and these other folks would end up
wherever they've ended up. For example, I would even argue that in 1964-65
Warhol was considered more culturally significant than Dylan. You have to
travel back in time to the '60's, making sure to forget everything you know
that happened since then, in order to really appreciate how Dylan and the
other people I mentioned fit together in a consistent picture.
In their own ways, all these figures were, I believe, working towards what
Maya's describing as "the aspect that pays homage to, and challenges notions
about,
what has come before in tradition and American culture" -- in fact, they
were trying to simultaneously deconstruct and reconstruct pieces of it by
using surrealistically humorous skepticism to excavate the unstated,
unconscious infrastructural assumptions of American existence, in order to
unearth some principles more fundamental than consumerism, capitalism and
WASPy good manners.
As you all point out, though, Dylan did it more successfully. He had a
pervasive impact on the way people expressed themselves during the '60's;
and since the '60's were the fulcrum of so many huge changes throughout the
world (especially changes in how we communicate!), the way in which people
expressed themselves during that decade had, in turn, a disproportionate and
continuing impact on succeeding phases of Amerca's cultural development.
Dylan's self-created persona was so iconically identified with that impact,
and he was so successful in establishing new artistic contexts for his
work -- even as the old ones ceased appearing revolutionary and were
subsumed into the global, central context of American society -- that he
remained relevant while his contemporaries, by and large, remained tied to
the '60's (with some crucial exceptions such as Wolfe). Thus, today we see
Zappa, Zap Comix and the Pop Artists as quaint, while Dylan still appears
timely and vital. But 40 years ago they all appeared equally vital,
equally relevant, equally capable of imprinting themselves on America far
into the future.
H.
dave harrison
No and yes.
Warhol was considered more culturally significant.
Dylan as ''folk singer''stood top of that tree; Dylan as electrified
beat poet compared with all others until the 1966 tour.
You are absolutely right we have 40 years & everything has to be
dropped off. I'd go further back for the substance of your argument,
to the 1950s, to the City Lights catalogue, to black musicians, to
changes in technology & the distribution of image & to the power and
authority still invested in the word. I'd bring in Bruce, Dick Gregory
& Mailer's 'White Hipster'.
Don't see it as American.
Feel uncomfortable with the word transcended. It's more like
Heisenberg disappearing around a corner.
Best Regards
Dave Harrison
nates
>
> On 8 Mar 2002 19:44:02 -0800, hol...@crosslink.net (Sigrid Trumpy)
> wrote:
>
> >the comic book and me, we caught the bus
>
> the comic book and me (just us) we caught the bus?
============================================================================
.----------------------------------------------------------.
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||__\___||_____||_____||_____||_____||_____||_____||_____| |
|~\_______/ : |
.|_/ 61 "WE MUST BUS 'TIL EARLY MAY!" Gus ---' |
| |
O .'~~~~~~~~\ ooo life is a bus(
} / /~~~~~~~\ \ AAA /~~~~~~\ /
\ /,| / \ |\ \================ 10th Avenue ====| | :: | |========/__
`-'' | \__/ |~`----------------------------------| \____/ /-------'---
`______' `______'
Well, the comic book and me, just us, we caught the bus.
=============================================================================
- nate
Barry Welch
%^)
Kenneth Wilson
> Warhol... might
> work, less in the fine arts than in his elevation of advertising to a form
> of homage to commercial images -- I loved that story of Dylan taking one
of
> his prints as payment for a film appearance (did I get that right?).
I love the story of him trading it to Grossman for a couch!
Ken
Kenneth Wilson
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks,
ken
frinjdwelr
home.
There's a great bit, I think on the '81 interview tape, where he's asked
about this story. He admits it was true, but adds something to the effect
of... It was a stupid thing to do. If someone gave me another one now, I
wouldn't do that.
Tricia J
wrote:
and the bit about him telling an interviewer in the 80s that he wished
he could meet Warhol again and tell him he was very sorry he traded it
for Grossman's couch.
the neverending story...
George Spanos
Didn't Dylan say somewhere that he regretted trading that print?
George
Maya Allison
> wiggle, wiggle, wiggle
>
> %^)
do you do the dance to go with it?