what is "Desolation Row" about?

[icn...@gmail.com]

Does anyone have any ideas about the meaning of this ambiguous, enigmatic song? Thanks...

[Mr Jinx]

I think you have hit the nail on the head when you sait it is ambigous and enigmatic. The nature of these things is that they defy the kind of analasis that pins down meaning and leave as many (if not more) questions than answers.

I believe Desolation Row is a state of mind. But there are people who will tell you it was a particular avenue in New York. Those people are right from their side and I am right from mine.

Good luck with yours.

Mr Jinx

[really real]

C'mon, Jinx, give the guy a break. Back when I used to interpret Dylan
songs for 50 cents each, I would have said Desolation Row is about
Modern Times. It references the upcoming Apocalypse - The Titanic Sails
at Dawn, and it describes the current hideous state of affairs, as the
old labour battle, "Which side are you on" becomes a sad joke as we all
sink.

Ophelia, Cinderella, Casanova and Romeo are characters, just like us,
who have been poisoned by the love in these modern times while Einstein
is a famous person brought down in the same way. The blind commissioner
and the riot squad are the current state of politics and law enforcement.

And the whole sad description of our modern times is the backdrop for
Dylan's personal message - he and his lady are looking out over all
this, but he can't read anymore because he's stuck in the thick of it.

[Mr Jinx]

That's a good 49 cents worth right there! Actually I defy anyone to better that.

Mr Jinx

[crazytimes]

It's about eleven mintues, twenty-one seconds long...

[chris]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 4:24:30 AM UTC-4, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
> Does anyone have any ideas about the meaning of this ambiguous, enigmatic song? Thanks...

please do your homework by yourself. are you taking the dylan class??? don't be lazy...use your brain...:-).

[really real]

On 10/12/2012 2:25 PM, poisoned rose wrote:

> chris <cpyl...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> are you taking the dylan class???
>

> It's funny you say this, because the first time I gave Dylan any serious
> consideration was when my sophomore HS English teacher spent a class or
> two having us discuss the lyrics of this song.
>


Did he do a good job? Had you heard the song before? How did you react
to the lessons?

I remember a student asking me the meaning of "darkness at the break of
noon" and I didn't have a good answer for her. I would do better now.

[really real]

>
> No. Actually, I don't recall if she even played the song. She might have
> just passed out copies of the lyrics.


You don't recall Charley McCoy's guitar work? Shame on your teacher if
she didn't play the song. Or shame on you for forgetting it, if she did.

>
>> How did you react to the lessons?
>

> Sparked some interest in Dylan, sure.

A good teacher would have sparked some interest in looking at imagery in
a different way. Or not.

[DianeE]

<icn...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b8ce509-3634-409f...@googlegroups.com...

> Does anyone have any ideas about the meaning of this ambiguous, enigmatic
> song? Thanks...

--------------
Was that some kind of joke?

DianeE

[really real]

> Have a nice day.
>


There's no need to get snippy, poisoned rose. Despite all the chaos you
cause here, you do sometimes bring up some points worth discussing, and
g-d knows, this newsgroup needs all the help it can get.

Don't you find it ironic that you, who always processes songs and albums
based on a musical interpretation, would not even remember if there was
music in your teacher's Desolation Row lessons?

When I taught English, I always told the students to look at the lyrics
for our discussions and not concert yourself with whether you like the
music or not. Of course I only played them songs which I liked, both
lyrically and musically and I was trying to broaden their taste in music.

[Jim Kitzmiller]

8 to 12 minutes depending on the version.

I always enjoyed thinking it was about fame.

[marcus]

One of my favorite high school moments was during my senior
year('67-'68) when the college-aged student teacher in my English
class let me bring in my "Alice's Restaurant" album and play it for
the class. Not only were we listening to it, but about two dozen kids
hanging outside the classroom door in the hallway also were listening
to it. A great communal Sixties happening. I had a chance to relay
that story to Arlo after I saw him in concert about 3 years ago. Now,
I realize that he has probably heard other-related remembrances
hundreds of times, but he still smiled, autographed my 1967 "Alice's
Restaurant" album, and said, "That was really cool, man".

[really real]

>
> I always enjoyed thinking it was about fame.
>

It's true that Einstein Ezra Pound, T. S. Eliot, and Bette Davis are
famous, as are, I guess, Romeo, Ophelia, Casanova, Cinderella, the
Phantom of the Opera and the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dr. Filth, I'm not
so sure of and Cain and Able are something else. Einstein used to be
famous for playing electric violin but he's been demoted to sniffing
drain pipes. And there are a lot of musical references in the song and
at the end, it sounds like a description of Dylan being wasted on the
road of a tour. The Apocalypse and Dylan's upcoming motorcycle accident
seem so entwined.

[M. Rick]

And the only sound that’s left after the tailgaters go
Is Coach Sandusky cleaning up on Desolation Row

[Brother Jumbo]

On Oct 12, 9:24 am, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
>   Does anyone have any ideas about the meaning of this ambiguous, enigmatic song? Thanks...

Yes.

You're welcome.

[really real]

I can't believe the level of negativity in this newsgroup. Why shouldn't
we be discussing Desolation Row?

I suppose there is a feeling that anyone who asks about one of Dylan's
great songs should be treated with contempt. Do we assume they are a
trolls, or just too unhip to communicate with.

But aside from all that, I'm sure there are still things to glean from
Desolation Row.

When I was on the 12 Tribe bus, a woman asked me what Visions of Johanna
was abut. She had heard that Johanna was sitting in the front row at one
of the concerts. I pulled up the lyrics on my phone, and we had a great
time going through the song, line by line.

[Brother Jumbo]

On Oct 14, 9:20 pm, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> On 10/14/2012 12:19 PM, Brother Jumbo wrote:
>
> > On Oct 12, 9:24 am, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>    Does anyone have any ideas about the meaning of this ambiguous, enigmatic song? Thanks...
>
> > Yes.
>
> > You're welcome.
>
> I can't believe the level of negativity in this newsgroup. Why shouldn't
> we be discussing Desolation Row?

No reason at all. But the OP offered nothing, only set up responders
for a fall.

>
> I suppose there is a feeling that anyone who asks about one of Dylan's
> great songs should be treated with contempt. Do we assume they are a
> trolls, or just too unhip to communicate with.

The former. And you're trolling just as much here, actually...

[really real]

>>
>> I can't believe the level of negativity in this newsgroup. Why shouldn't
>> we be discussing Desolation Row?
>
> No reason at all. But the OP offered nothing, only set up responders
> for a fall.

No Jumbo, you no longer post anything here that isn't just a complaint
about someone else's post. You're like M Rick but at least M Rick has
some humour in his complaints.

>>
>> I suppose there is a feeling that anyone who asks about one of Dylan's
>> great songs should be treated with contempt. Do we assume they are a
>> trolls, or just too unhip to communicate with.
>
> The former. And you're trolling just as much here, actually...

Yes, I know that you and poisoned rose think I'm a troll.

I'm just trying to keep this newsgroup functioning despite all the
bitterness there is here.

[icn...@gmail.com]

If asking an on topic, Dylan related question in a newsgroup specifically devoted to discussing Dylan is considered "trolling", I'd certainly hate to see what *real* trolling is like here, or better yet, an example of what's *not* considered trolling...

[Janice]

On Oct 15, 7:00 am, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
.

> >> I can't believe the level of negativity in this newsgroup. Why shouldn't
> >> we be discussing Desolation Row?
>
> > No reason at all. But the OP offered nothing, only set up responders
> > for a fall.

.

.
> I'm just trying to keep this newsgroup functioning despite all the
> bitterness there is here.

I do believe you, rr, and I can see your efforts to keep the
conversations flowing.

I don't know why the responses to what looks to me to be an honest
question are so weird... maybe because there is no answer, and after
all these years, we still don't know. I liked the comment about
"fame"... makes as much sense as anything else.

In answer to icn's question -- people have lots of ideas, but only
Bob knows what the song is about. I suggest you keep in mind a couple
things when reading Bob's lyrics:
1) He is just as likely to be writing about what happened on his way
to the laundromat as anything else, and
2) He makes stuff up (like names, f'rinstance, because it amuses him
and because it keeps him out of lawsuits)


On Oct 15, 2:09 pm, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
.

> If asking an on topic, Dylan related question in a newsgroup specifically devoted to discussing Dylan is considered "trolling", I'd certainly hate to see what *real* trolling is like here, or better yet, an example of what's *not* considered trolling...

Yes, weird, huh... we rmd folks sometimes spend too much time locked
in the same room together. It can get claustrophobic, and bitchy...
and smell funny.


~`~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRw2W8w_JW8

[Just Walkin']

On Oct 13, 11:51 am, jameskitzmil...@gmail.com (Jim Kitzmiller) wrote:
> 8 to 12 minutes depending on the version.
>
> I always enjoyed thinking it was about fame.
>

Funny, but I always thought it was about Al Aronowitz.

[marcus]

On Oct 15, 5:09 pm, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
>   If asking an on topic, Dylan related question in a newsgroup specifically devoted to discussing Dylan is considered "trolling", I'd certainly hate to see what *real* trolling is like here, or better yet, an example of what's *not* considered trolling...

Consider the source making the troll accusation.

[really real]

> I don't know why the responses to what looks to me to be an honest
> question are so weird... maybe because there is no answer, and after
> all these years, we still don't know. I liked the comment about
> "fame"... makes as much sense as anything else.

I have to disagree here. Dylan's lyrics are often incredibly rich and
when you go through them with someone who is knew to the songs, you can
show them all kinds of possibilities.

This really happened well with me and the woman on the 12 Tribes bus,
when she wanted to know what Visions of Johanna was about.

Admittedly. Desolation Row is more abstract than Visions of Johanna, but
there is still a lot there that can be explained and discussed.

Recently I read Ginsberg's analysis of Desolation Row and why it was
shoddy poetry. That was fascinating.

I think the real problem in the newsgroup in answering the question is
that people here have become too insular and cynical. They'd rather just
joke around and be snarky rather than help a newcomer.

[really real]

I was pointing out that if you ask a question about the meaning of one
of Dylan's most famously abstract songs, someone might consider you a
troll. It shouldn't be that way, of course. I always try to error on the
side of caution and answer questions about the meaning of Dylan songs,
no matter who is asking.

[M. Rick]

> In answer to icn's question --  people have lots of ideas, but only Bob knows what the song is about.

I wish Dylan would post here so he can finally tell us what his songs
are really about. Sadly we don’t have that chance with Shakespeare.
This is why I attend Shakespeare séances every week, in an attempt to
conjure up the great author and unearth his secrets. Just so happens
that one time a ghost appeared to our little circle and said “my hour
is almost come, when I to sulphurous and tormenting flames must render
up myself.” We later found out that the ghost was Dylan wearing a
white sheet. “And to think, Dylan could have told us what his songs
were about!” we cried.

[Brother Jumbo]

On Oct 16, 2:19 am, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> I was pointing out that if you ask a question about the meaning of one
> of Dylan's most famously abstract songs, someone might consider you a
> troll. It shouldn't be that way, of course. I always try to error on the
> side of caution and answer questions about the meaning of Dylan songs,
> no matter who is asking.

No-one has observed that the OP never followed up!

People are free to be trusting (possibly naive in this case), but why
do they have to call a shrewd assessment cynical? I was in a book &
comics shop recently, and this guy walks in, says, hey, you guys have
got a lot of Dr. Who stuff. The staff didn't pull faces or act
cynical, they made polite conversation. Several reasons for the
difference. One being: he is there in person, he is not setting anyone
up with an insincere remark. Here, the OP pops a question and
disappears. Note that my 'cynical' remark was made several days after
the OP was made, and after people had given several indulgent replies.
THAT behaviour (not the 1st post itself), I submit, is the behaviour
of a troll, i.e. someone making a post in bad faith. Hence my
'weird' (thanks, Janice!) response.

I don't consider RReal a troll. But he often trolls. (I don't consider
myself a thief, but I sometimes steal paper clips & pens from work.)

[Brother Jumbo]

On Oct 15, 10:09 pm, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
>   If asking an on topic, Dylan related question in a newsgroup specifically devoted to discussing Dylan is considered "trolling", I'd certainly hate to see what *real* trolling is like here, or better yet, an example of what's *not* considered trolling...

Oh, you're back now, are you? Didn't you think it was polite to answer
earlier?

[icn...@gmail.com]

Brother Jumbo, I posted on the 12th and posted again in this thread on the 15th, 3 days later... but that is irrelevent, Imo... there are no rules about what/ when/ how to post... and if there were rules, they should be broken... my point seems obvious to me: there was nothing *remotely* trollish about my post... It was Dylan related, I didn't put a gun to people's head demanding a response, which of course would be pointless, I asked for people's opinions about a Bob Dylan song in a Bob Dylan newsgroup, nothing more, nothing less...

[marcus]

RR, I was not referring to you as the accuser.

[marcus]

On Oct 16, 7:18 am, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
>    Brother Jumbo, I posted on the 12th and posted again in this thread on the 15th, 3 days later... but that is irrelevent, Imo... there are no rules about what/ when/ how to post... and if there were rules, they should be broken...  my point seems obvious to me: there was nothing *remotely* trollish about my post... It was Dylan related, I didn't put a gun to people's head demanding a response, which of course would be pointless, I asked for people's opinions about a Bob Dylan  song in a Bob Dylan newsgroup, nothing more, nothing less...

pretty outrageous, huh? ;-)

[icn...@gmail.com]

What can one do? I've been posting on Usenet for many years, I'm well aware of tention and suspicion and arguing and fighting, whether between the group "regulars" or "semi regtulars" or between members of the group and "outsiders"... conflict seems to be an inevitable aspect of human nature, whether in "real life" or here on the internet...

[really real]

>
> I don't consider RReal a troll. But he often trolls. (I don't consider
> myself a thief, but I sometimes steal paper clips & pens from work.)
>

You mean I am a minor troll, or just a very petty troll?


I don't think I troll, Jumbo, but I know there is something in the style
in which I communicate that poisoned rose and you think is trolling.


Actually, Jumbo, I think you are more of a troll than I am. In the last
year or so, I don't remember you making one positive post in this
newsgroup. I just remember you making a lot of sniping, negative comments.

[really real]

On 10/16/2012 5:41 AM, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
> What can one do? I've been posting on Usenet for many years, I'm well aware of tention and suspicion and arguing and fighting, whether between the group "regulars" or "semi regtulars" or between members of the group and "outsiders"... conflict seems to be an inevitable aspect of human nature, whether in "real life" or here on the internet...
>

You just have to ignore Jumbo. He knows not what he does.


I find that in a newsgroup, you have to have a thick skin and ignore all
the sniping. Eventually, you might find some communication.

[chris]

On Tuesday, October 16, 2012 8:41:17 AM UTC-4, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
> What can one do? I've been posting on Usenet for many years, I'm well aware of tention and suspicion and arguing and fighting, whether between the group "regulars" or "semi regtulars" or between members of the group and "outsiders"... conflict seems to be an inevitable aspect of human nature, whether in "real life" or here on the internet...

lolol...well you could have started out saying, 'i get the sense that the song means...' and we may have all jumped in..but you just put a question on the table like, 'i'm too lazy to use my brain, what does your brain think of this''.(for me, the retired behavioralist from jhu)

i have an opinion about the desolation row meaning, however my flame retardment suit is in the cleaners right now, or i'd jump right in.
chris

[gemjack]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 05:41:33 -0700, really real <reall...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

My understanding of the definition of a troll is one that uses
comments as bait to antagonize a person or group. These are often
'satellite' comments that don't actually pertain to an existing
thread/conversation but are included simply to 'get a rise' out of
others.

Not the best example, but the most recent:
"A good teacher would have sparked some interest in looking at imagery
in a different way. Or not."

And I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of positive comments. Bob
didn't make a lot of them either.

"The suffering is unending"
"My weariness amazes me"
"Everything is broken"
"I’m strolling through the lonely graveyard of my mind"
"I went out on Lower Broadway and I felt that place within-
That hollow place where martyrs weep and angels play with sin"

et cetera...
-gj

[Brother Jumbo]

On Oct 16, 1:41 pm, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
> Actually, Jumbo, I think you are more of a troll than I am. In the last
> year or so, I don't remember you making one positive post in this
> newsgroup. I just remember you making  a lot of sniping, negative comments.

Then you either have a poor (or selective) memory or you know not
whereof you speak. I recently, for example, posted a review of
Tempest. Highly positive, btw. I don't mind you didn't see it, but
don't tell me what I 'always' do based on your incomplete and often
unreliable (and highly selective) memory.

[Brother Jumbo]

On Oct 16, 12:18 pm, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
>    Brother Jumbo, I posted on the 12th and posted again in this thread on the 15th, 3 days later...

Yes, but not to reply to any of the answers kindly offered you. You
ignored *them*, and jumped on the back of this silly business, like
a ... hmm, what was the word again?

> but that is irrelevent, Imo...

Oh no doubt, it's irrelevant, to *you*.

> there are no rules about what/ when/ how to post...

No, just basic politeness, which you've said is irrelevant...

and if there were rules, they should be broken...

Yeah, fuck this please and thank you shit, gimme my fuckin' dinner,
bitch.

>  my point seems obvious to me: there was nothing *remotely* trollish about my post...

I said the behaviour was trollish. An OP that offered no opinion but
asked a FAQ which a minimal archive search could have answered, and
then the failure to acknowledge courteous responses. But like you say,
fuck dat politeness shit, yo one badass usenet mudah.

> It was Dylan related, I didn't put a gun to people's head demanding a response, which of course would be pointless, I asked for people's opinions about a Bob Dylan  song in a Bob Dylan newsgroup, nothing more, nothing less...

Oh, stop it, my tears are spoiling my coffee.

[icn...@gmail.com]

Brother Jumbo, would Bob Dylan care about this "politeness" issue that you seem so concerned about? He was often not very polite at certain times in his life... he was a rule breaker, and I believe in breaking rules as well... you lecturing people about politeness is extremly hypocritical... based on the way you are conversing with myself and other people here, it is clear that you yourself aren't the most polite person in the world either...

[really real]

>
> My understanding of the definition of a troll is one that uses
> comments as bait to antagonize a person or group. These are often
> 'satellite' comments that don't actually pertain to an existing
> thread/conversation but are included simply to 'get a rise' out of
> others.
>
> Not the best example, but the most recent:
> "A good teacher would have sparked some interest in looking at imagery
> in a different way. Or not."

I think there were better examples of what you are talking about in my
response to poisoned rose. I was trying to get poisoned rose to think
about the irony of him not being interested in the music part of his
teacher's Desolation Row lesson, when he is now, in my opinion, so
obsessed with music that he doesn't understand why so much pop and folk
music, and Dylan music, is so good.

I still don't think that is trolling though. It's provocative, but it's
trying to get a discussion going.

My comment about how a teacher should spark interest in looking at
imagery was definitely not meant to be provocative. I think Dylan's use
of imagery opened up a whole new way of writing and thinking that
changed the world. The way I added the words "or not" was a bit
trollish, I guess. I was just pre=empting the usual attack I get from
poisoned rose for not saying "in my opinion."

[really real]

Thanks for the response. I did indeed forget about your Tempest review.

Did anyone goad you into posting your review?

Are there any other examples of positive posts you've made?

[icn...@gmail.com]

Some people on newsgroups can be control freaks... I like to post in an unusual, creative, innovative way at times, to break the rules at times... why should there be rigid, narrow, one size fits all ways of posting?

[gemjack]

On Tue, 16 Oct 2012 07:18:27 -0700 (PDT), icn...@gmail.com wrote:

>I like to post in an unusual, creative, innovative way at times, to break the rules at times

There are no rules. Though using google groups, top posting, & not
including the portion of the thread you're replying to can certainly
complicate things.
-gj

[icn...@gmail.com]

That's how I see it too Gemeni... Jumbo is behaving like a control freak in a forum more suited to chaos...

[M. Rick]

>Does anyone have any ideas about the meaning of this ambiguous, enigmatic song? Thanks...

I don't find it very ambiguous. The only ambiguity is that you don’t
know what is dream or reality, or whether you are looking in or
looking out. But that’s an illusion since (as Dylan would have it)
we’re all stuck on Desolation Row.

[really real]

Without being flippant, could you tell me the meaning of these lines

"All except for Cain and Abel
And the hunchback of Notre Dame
Everybody is making love
Or else expecting rain"

I'm especially interesting in the reasons why Cain, Abel and the
Hunchback are the only ones not making love.

[really real]

>
>> my point seems obvious to me: there was nothing *remotely* trollish about my post...
>
> I said the behaviour was trollish. An OP that offered no opinion but
> asked a FAQ which a minimal archive search could have answered, and
> then the failure to acknowledge courteous responses. But like you say,
> fuck dat politeness shit, yo one badass usenet mudah.

Why do you continue to blame the victim here, Jumbo?

It's understandable that you were just being grumpy because you'd
forgotten your manners. Why not start posting something positive instead?

[icn...@gmail.com]

Well, Cain and Abel may have too busy fighting with each other to make love too often, and perhaps the hunchback of Notre Dame was expecting Claude Rains to join him for an afternoon to play checkers...

[really real]

On 10/16/2012 9:23 AM, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well, Cain and Abel may have too busy fighting with each other to make love too often, and perhaps the hunchback of Notre Dame was expecting Claude Rains to join him for an afternoon to play checkers...
>

Jeez, you're as bad as M Rick

Cain and Able represent mankind's first murder and therefore symbolize
all the horrible things that man does. I'm wondering if Dylan just
pulled the Hunchback out of his imagery bank without thinking too much
about it. Didn't the Hunchback love a little girl?

[crazytimes]

On Oct 16, 12:23 pm, icn...@gmail.com wrote:
>   Well, Cain and Abel may have too busy fighting with each other to make love too often, and perhaps the hunchback of Notre Dame was expecting Claude Rains to join him for an afternoon to play checkers...

Claude Rains is gonna fall...

[Jim Kitzmiller]

Three situations:

Cain, Able, Hunchback - not making love, not expecting rain
Some people making love, not expecting rain
Some people expecting rain, not making love.

So Cain, Able and Quasimoto are not the only ones not making love.

Jim Kitzmiller

[gemjack]

On 16 Oct 2012 10:56:35 -0700, jameski...@gmail.com (Jim

Kitzmiller) wrote:

>Without being flippant, could you tell me the meaning of these lines
>
>"All except for Cain and Abel
>And the hunchback of Notre Dame
>Everybody is making love
>Or else expecting rain"
>
>I'm especially interesting in the reasons why Cain, Abel and the Hunchback
>are the only ones not making love.
>
>
>Three situations:
>
>Cain, Able, Hunchback - not making love, not expecting rain
>Some people making love, not expecting rain
>Some people expecting rain, not making love.
>
>So Cain, Able and Quasimoto are not the only ones not making love.
>
>Jim Kitzmiller

Bingo! This has been my understanding as well.
-gj

[Gill Smith]

"poisoned rose" <pro...@poissonedrose.com> wrote in message
news:prose99-00D5F2...@news.eternal-september.org...

> really real <reall...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> "All except for Cain and Abel
>> And the hunchback of Notre Dame
>> Everybody is making love
>> Or else expecting rain"
>>
>> I'm especially interesting in the reasons why Cain, Abel and the
>> Hunchback are the only ones not making love.
>

> The Hunchback was a lonely freak who didn't manage much action with the
> ladeez. And the lack of love between Cain and Abel seems rather obvious.

what runs around Paris wrapped in greaseproof paper?

the lunchpack of Notre Dame

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[Just Walkin']

On Oct 16, 1:22 pm, gemjack <geminijackso...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 16 Oct 2012 10:56:35 -0700, jameskitzmil...@gmail.com (Jim

I seem to recall attending a session at a symposium on Bob Dylan's
work at the University of Minnesota where Thomas Crow of the Getty
Research Institute laid out the idea that Desolation Row came out of
Dylan's visit to Warhol's Factory and Like a Rolling Stone was a
rescue song written directly as a result.

You could be right and and I could be crazy but having spent a few
nights in Warhol's millieu back then (having attended the premier
screening of Trash with the director and his stars), not only can I
believe it, but I can still make the visual connections in the song,
then generalized in a way for all to appreciate a new way to say
spectacle without the spectacular.

A few years later, Springsteen's Lost In the Flood struck me the same
way regarding the scene we were experiencing at that time.

[M. Rick]

> I'm especially interesting in the reasons why Cain, Abel and the Hunchback are the only ones not making love.

Cain and Abel are busy fighting and the Hunchback is locked up away
from the woman he loves. They aren’t making love and they're not too
worried about the weather. The flood is coming but the show must go
on.

[Just Walkin']

Incidentally, "expecting rain," to some, also means waiting for money.
Just ask the rainmakers...

Of course there's the difference between romancing your cash from
audiences and seducing it out of patrons...but that's another thread.

[Christopher Helms]

On Oct 16, 3:10 pm, "Gill Smith" <gill.smith....@googlemail.com>
wrote:
> "poisoned rose" <pros...@poissonedrose.com> wrote in message
>
> news:prose99-00D5F2...@news.eternal-september.org...

>
> > really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> >> "All except for Cain and Abel
> >> And the hunchback of Notre Dame
> >> Everybody is making love
> >> Or else expecting rain"
>
> >> I'm especially interesting in the reasons why Cain, Abel and the
> >> Hunchback are the only ones not making love.
>
> > The Hunchback was a lonely freak who didn't manage much action with the
> > ladeez. And the lack of love between Cain and Abel seems rather obvious.

Trying to decipher Bob Dylan lyrics is an exercise in futility, as a
lot of YouTube common taters have found out.

[really real]

>>
>>> The Hunchback was a lonely freak who didn't manage much action with the
>>> ladeez. And the lack of love between Cain and Abel seems rather obvious.
>
>
> Trying to decipher Bob Dylan lyrics is an exercise in futility, as a
> lot of YouTube common taters have found out.
>

I disagree, not when people are being serious at trying to illuminate
the lyrics. This post about the Hunchback is just silliness, but the
previous post was not, explaining that the Hunchback was locked up and
away from the girl he loved.

[Bryan]

One of my favorite songs is Dylan's Stuck Inside of Mobile With the
Memphis Blues Again.

--Bryan

[gemjack]

I still love it that he preferred to use that take for the album even
with the slight vocal error. I wonder if people that cover it throw
in the screw up.
-gj

[c r]

life and life only-----

[George M. Middius]

Christopher Helms wrote:

> Trying to decipher Bob Dylan lyrics is an exercise in futility, as a
> lot of YouTube common taters have found out.

Nonetheless, Dylan is quite proud of the songs he wrote in the '60s
that made him famous. He told an interviewer on 60 Minutes that he
doesn't know how on earth he came up with such incisive, era-defining
lyrics, and he wishes he could still do it.

I could take a guess how he did it.

[Dave Smith]

I would hazard to suggest that there may be a lot of boomers like myself
who were exposed to Dylan as teens and would recognize lyrics and titles
from his first few albums, and then he sort of disappeared from our
consciousness.

[really real]

>
> I would hazard to suggest that there may be a lot of boomers like myself
> who were exposed to Dylan as teens and would recognize lyrics and titles
> from his first few albums, and then he sort of disappeared from our
> consciousness.
>

What;s interesting is that a bunch of those people showed up at the
Dylan concert.

The ad said "Don't You Dare Miss It" so they figured they should go see
this hero from their youth.

But if you don't know his new songs, you can't exactly get into them,
especially in an arena with a crummy sound system. No wonder so many go
away unsatisfied.

[gemjack]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:00:40 -0700, really real <reall...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>
>>
>> I would hazard to suggest that there may be a lot of boomers like myself
>> who were exposed to Dylan as teens and would recognize lyrics and titles
>> from his first few albums, and then he sort of disappeared from our
>> consciousness.

That's a shame. His first 18 studio albums were great!

>What;s interesting is that a bunch of those people showed up at the
>Dylan concert.
>
>The ad said "Don't You Dare Miss It" so they figured they should go see
>this hero from their youth.
>
>But if you don't know his new songs, you can't exactly get into them,
>especially in an arena with a crummy sound system. No wonder so many go
>away unsatisfied.

Yeah, going to see Bob in the middle of a tour isn't the best way to
become reacquainted. Most people must ease themselves into Bob, so to
speak.
-gj

[really real]

>>
>> But if you don't know his new songs, you can't exactly get into them,
>> especially in an arena with a crummy sound system. No wonder so many go
>> away unsatisfied.
>
> Yeah, going to see Bob in the middle of a tour isn't the best way to
> become reacquainted. Most people must ease themselves into Bob, so to
> speak.

I think a boomer whose lost touch with Dylan should just listen to the
new albums, so that he knows the songs and knows what Dylan is up to.

Mind you, preparing for the Tempest Tour wouldn't involve much listening.

[rwalker]

I've continued to buy every release, but nothing after Desire really
grabs me the way the earlier stuff did. I enjoy it, but not in the
same way.

[gemjack]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 14:21:37 -0400, rwalker <rwa...@despammed.com>
wrote:

I would agree that was the last 'great' album by the Bob we'd known up
to that point. Street Legal stands on it's own as a wild card in my
book, a wonderful album but by a different, short-lived, version of
Bob. And things were never the same again. The question persists: do
we blame Sara, disco, his penis, the smokes, Jesus, or the voice?
-gj

[icn...@gmail.com]

GJ, very generally speaking, that seems to be the pattern for many artists... they start off tentatively as beginners in their craft, they gradually progress... eventually they reach theire peek and make theire masterpiece or series of masterpieces, then they begin a slow decline, as theire creative abilities and inspiration gradually diminsh...

[gemjack]

True. I imagine there are *some* that start off stumbling, then hone
their craft and then eventually produce more quality material, but I
can't quite think of one right now. I can think of bands that go
that route, but individual artists? I see a lot of bell curves, but
not a complete opposite where you start off weak and end at your best.
-gj

[really real]

> True. I imagine there are *some* that start off stumbling, then hone
> their craft and then eventually produce more quality material, but I
> can't quite think of one right now. I can think of bands that go
> that route, but individual artists? I see a lot of bell curves, but
> not a complete opposite where you start off weak and end at your best.

I can't believe you last four guys are talking as if Dylan never had a
revival in the 21st Century. If you haven't been impressed by TOOM, Love
& Theft, and Modern Times, then you are indeed sad old Dylan fans.

[M. Rick]

> I could take a guess how he did it.

Guess away

[gemjack]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 13:12:16 -0700, really real <reall...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>

Of course that's good stuff, near masterpieces even when compared to
what was immediately before them. But it's laughable to compare them
to his work in the 60's and 70's. This is an example of the bell
curve I mentioned earlier.
-gj

[gemjack]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 13:53:23 -0700, poisoned rose
<pro...@poissonedrose.com> wrote:

>gemjack <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> True. I imagine there are *some* that start off stumbling, then hone
>> their craft and then eventually produce more quality material, but I
>> can't quite think of one right now. I can think of bands that go
>> that route, but individual artists? I see a lot of bell curves, but
>> not a complete opposite where you start off weak and end at your best.
>

>This doesn't quite satisfy the criterion, but I think the Flaming Lips
>are an unusual case in that they hit their prime 12-15 years into their
>career.
>
>I don't really know, but I'd guess that I enjoy few artists who didn't
>release one of their top-tier albums within their first three tries.
>Might be an interesting question to investigate.

Prince comes to mind. The first 3 Beatle albums are certainly not
their best IMO, but that's a band so they're not applicable.

>As for Dylan over time, I'd say his greatest liabilities for me are the
>deteriorated voice, his limited musical range (dress 'em up any way you
>like, but he's still mostly mining the same old strummed folk chords)
>and the increasing detachment perceivable between him and whatever
>musicians are currently on his salary roster.

I think the lively, rollicking band members he brings in as a veneer
for those things you mentioned do more harm than good. They seem like
capable and accomplished musicians but you can sort of tell that Bob
dictates what is played, which I'd wager is beneath their true
capabilities. He's even said that the music now is very structured
and measured, unlike say the RTR days which I will always prefer.
-gj

[Gill Smith]

"gemjack" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6lut785l4m2tp8pup...@4ax.com...

> I would agree that was the last 'great' album by the Bob we'd known up
> to that point. Street Legal stands on it's own as a wild card in my
> book, a wonderful album but by a different, short-lived, version of
> Bob. And things were never the same again. The question persists: do
> we blame Sara, disco, his penis, the smokes, Jesus, or the voice?

inability to read music

it's the difference between classical composers who got better as they aged

and guitar strummers stuck in the musical rut that their fingers have carved
out for them

not forgetting that a fair bit of Dylan's early stuff was 'adapted'/nicked

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[really real]

>> I can't believe you last four guys are talking as if Dylan never had a
>> revival in the 21st Century. If you haven't been impressed by TOOM, Love
>> & Theft, and Modern Times, then you are indeed sad old Dylan fans.
>
> Of course that's good stuff, near masterpieces even when compared to
> what was immediately before them. But it's laughable to compare them
> to his work in the 60's and 70's. This is an example of the bell
> curve I mentioned earlier.
> -gj
>

I don't think its so laughable at all. Some of these new songs have a
construction and a creativity that's very similar to the 60s Dylan
songs. Of course, Things Have Changed, and they don't sound the same.
Except in concert.

[really real]

>
> not forgetting that a fair bit of Dylan's early stuff was 'adapted'/nicked
>

And that certainly hasn't changed

[gemjack]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 13:13:08 +0100, "Gill Smith"
<gill.sm...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>"gemjack" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:6lut785l4m2tp8pup...@4ax.com...
>
>> I would agree that was the last 'great' album by the Bob we'd known up
>> to that point. Street Legal stands on it's own as a wild card in my
>> book, a wonderful album but by a different, short-lived, version of
>> Bob. And things were never the same again. The question persists: do
>> we blame Sara, disco, his penis, the smokes, Jesus, or the voice?
>
>inability to read music
>
>it's the difference between classical composers who got better as they aged
>
>and guitar strummers stuck in the musical rut that their fingers have carved
>out for them

This is twice now that this has been brought up, and I think it's a
very valid point. Not so long ago I began to notice that many of my
personal little compositions could arguably be referred to as sounding
similar to others so I whipped out my old every-chord-known-to-man
book that I amazingly still had and just began practicing chords that
I had never used before, then finding other chords that were new to me
that progressed nicely with it. I eventually came up with a new song
that was, for a while, a serious bitch to play but completely unlike
anything I'd ever written before. It's not exactly 'reading music'
but it opened up this amateur's eyes to something new and helps swerve
around that musical rut you mentioned. It sort of makes me think that
if you already know how to effortlessly play your brand new song as
soon as you write it, then it's not a brand new song at all.
-gj

[gemjack]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 06:53:45 -0700, really real <reall...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>

Ok, laughable may be a bit biased, but nothing from 97 to now sounds
like anything from the 60s to me. And that's not necessarily a bad
thing either. Do you think Dylan has ever fallen into self parody?
-gj

[really real]

>>
>> I don't think its so laughable at all. Some of these new songs have a
>> construction and a creativity that's very similar to the 60s Dylan
>> songs. Of course, Things Have Changed, and they don't sound the same.
>> Except in concert.
>
> Ok, laughable may be a bit biased, but nothing from 97 to now sounds
> like anything from the 60s to me. And that's not necessarily a bad
> thing either. Do you think Dylan has ever fallen into self parody?
> -gj
>

There was self parody on Blonde on Blonde.

The new stuff definitely sounds different, but lyrically, there are real
similarities. I bet someone could do some cover versions from both
periods and they'd sound similar.

[gemjack]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:29:18 -0700, poisoned rose

<pro...@poissonedrose.com> wrote:

>gemjack <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

>> Do you think Dylan has ever fallen into self parody?
>

>I wouldn't say so unintentionally, but there was that "You may call me
>Bobby, you may call me Zimmy" line.

Those were the delirious, lost years. I've never explored those
albums but may. I hear that musically they were very good.
-gj

[gemjack]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2012 09:06:55 -0700, really real <reall...@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>
>>>

Lol. Well yeah. They'd sound like the guy doing both songs.
-gj

[nate]

i always do: "when i sp- he built a fire..."

;-)

- nate

[nate]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 4:53:27 PM UTC-4, crazytimes wrote:
> It's about eleven minutes, twenty-one seconds long...

Ladies and gentlemen - we have the winner right here.

Crazy was first to get this posted.

But, then not again, we have other posts and flames that follow....


- nate

[nate]

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 2:25:00 PM UTC-4, really real wrote:
>
> It's true that Einstein Ezra Pound, T. S. Eliot, and Bette Davis are
> famous, as are, I guess, Romeo, Ophelia, Casanova, Cinderella, the
> Phantom of the Opera and the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dr. Filth, I'm not
> so sure of and Cain and Able are something else. Einstein used to be
> famous for playing electric violin but he's been demoted to sniffing
> drain pipes. And there are a lot of musical references in the song and
> at the end, it sounds like a description of Dylan being wasted on the
> road of a tour. The Apocalypse and Dylan's upcoming motorcycle accident
> seem so entwined.

Everybody seems to have forgotten the Huge Clue in the last verse:

"All these people that you mention
Yes, I know them, they're quite lame
I had to rearrange their faces
And give them all another name"

Is Einstein really the same famous Einstein or is he some NYU physics student dropout he knew from Positively 4th Street that used to have promise in some band in some dive bar? Is Ophelia just a convenient nickname he gave to this sad young woman he got to know in the village? And so on. That he was able to recast each memorable person he met in his early days in NYC to some historical figure and give it all a witty, clever wild goose chase for academics and mediots to ponder over for 100's of years hence - is remarkable indeed. Remember Paul Sargent! Maybe the only literal giveaway on the album. The names have been changed to protect the nothingness.

- nate

[really real]

>
> Everybody seems to have forgotten the Huge Clue in the last verse:
>
> "All these people that you mention
> Yes, I know them, they're quite lame
> I had to rearrange their faces
> And give them all another name"
>
> Is Einstein really the same famous Einstein or is he some NYU physics student dropout he knew from Positively 4th Street that used to have promise in some band in some dive bar? Is Ophelia just a convenient nickname he gave to this sad young woman he got to know in the village? And so on. That he was able to recast each memorable person he met in his early days in NYC to some historical figure and give it all a witty, clever wild goose chase for academics and mediots to ponder over for 100's of years hence - is remarkable indeed. Remember Paul Sargent! Maybe the only literal giveaway on the album. The names have been changed to protect the nothingness.

I don't think we've forgotten that. It's the significance of the names
he chooses that gives the poem meaning. Whom he is actually talking
about is not important.

But I think the idea of fame is a key to this song. Desolation Row is
where Dylan, now famous. is swimming. We can ask him about the famous
people he now knows, and I'm sure they're quite lame.

[Gill Smith]

"gemjack" <geminij...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:0d2088t680m8fkh39...@4ax.com...

haha

mention of Memphis Blues Again suddenly made me see the similarities between
that and my own piece

http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/Daddy_Was_A_Liberal/index.html

chords and melody aren't exactly the same but the overall song strucure is
similar

nothing new under the sun.......

--
http://www.gillsmith999.plus.com/

[Jim Kitzmiller]

On Saturday, October 13, 2012 2:25:00 PM UTC-4, really real wrote:

>=20

> It's true that Einstein Ezra Pound, T. S. Eliot, and Bette Davis

>are=20 famous, as are, I guess, Romeo, Ophelia, Casanova, Cinderella,
>the=20 Phantom of the Opera and the Hunchback of Notre Dame. Dr.
>Filth, I'm not=
=20

> so sure of and Cain and Able are something else. Einstein used to

> be=20 famous for playing electric violin but he's been demoted to
> sniffing=20 drain pipes. And there are a lot of musical references in
> the song and=20 at the end, it sounds like a description of Dylan
> being wasted on the=20 road of a tour. The Apocalypse and Dylan's
> upcoming motorcycle accident=
=20

> seem so entwined.

Everybody seems to have forgotten the Huge Clue in the last verse:

"All these people that you mention
Yes, I know them, they're quite lame
I had to rearrange their faces
And give them all another name"

Is Einstein really the same famous Einstein or is he some NYU physics stude=
nt dropout he knew from Positively 4th Street that used to have promise in =
some band in some dive bar? Is Ophelia just a convenient nickname he gave =
to this sad young woman he got to know in the village? And so on. That he=
was able to recast each memorable person he met in his early days in NYC t=
o some historical figure and give it all a witty, clever wild goose chase f=
or academics and mediots to ponder over for 100's of years hence - is remar=
kable indeed. Remember Paul Sargent! Maybe the only literal giveaway on t=

he album. The names have been changed to protect the nothingness.

- nate

I finally got to see I'm Not There, the movie (the best Bob movie, ever, by
the way). I couldn't get that last verse out of my mind while watching it.

Jim Kitzmiller

[gemjack]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2012 18:10:42 -0700, poisoned rose
<pro...@poissonedrose.com> wrote:

>> Prince comes to mind. The first 3 Beatle albums are certainly not
>> their best IMO, but that's a band so they're not applicable.
>

>I'm not sure why you draw a distinction between bands and solo acts for
>this question...seems like the same principle to me.

It kind of is, just seems like bands are allowed a bit more time to
ramp-up than a solo artist.
-gj