Desolation Row
eric
From: WScott2805 <wscot...@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Desolation row
In article <7ab33b$1o$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, al...@petergreen.com writes:
>I really doubt the song has any real meaning; just more of that surrealism
>that Bob's so great at.
>
Wscott wrote:
>So true - Bob is great at surrealism. IMO Bob uses surreal images to create a
>certain mood, not to mean anything in particular with individual images. The
>purpose of Desolation Row is, I think, threefold.
>
>1 to create a mood of chaos where individuals are contrary to how they are
>perceived in the real (or even fictional) world. Therefore, Einstein is famous
>for playing the electric violin; Casanova lacks self confidence, Ophelia is an
>old maid etc
>
>2 to create a sense of menace eg postcards of the hanging are sold, the riot
>squad's restless, people are strapped to heart attack machines
>
>3 to suggest impending disaster eg the fortune telling lady takes all her
>things inside (no future) and, especially, the Titanic sails at dawn with the
>passengers squabbling uselessly amongst each other while even poets are
>'fighting in the captain's tower.
>
>This perhaps reflects Bob uses surreal images to create a
>certain mood, Therefore it's a profoundly political song.
>
>This IMO is what makes Dylan's use of surrealist images so great. They are not
>simply chosen at random nor do individual images mean anything in particular,
>rather they create a particular atmosphere. Lesser talents do simply choose
>random images - this doesn't really work (see Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds or
>Whiter Shade of Pale). Dylan's method does even if we don't always know why!
>
>Wes
>
>The post office has been stolen
>and the mailbox is locked
Hi Wes,
Great post, although I don't agree with you. I never considered Dylan to
be a surrealist, not even in his wildest years(66-67) and I think you
don't either if you say that 'Bob uses surreal images to create a
certain mood' according to the 'rules' of surrealism I believe it's
impossible to use the subconscious for creating a certain mood by
purpose. What comes out comes out, l'ecrit automatique. Dylan's images
are not surrealistic, maybe they're strange but that's just because in
'normal' life we use other(lesser) words to describe situations.
I think his images are always logical, they all mean something, Dylan
designed them, there's no chaos on Desolation Row, at least not while
I'm listening, it's just another level of meaning, conscious meaning.
He's more like an alchemist or a symbolist in my eyes(and ears) than a
surrealist.
I think because of his special talent Dylan is able to reach another
level of reality and this reality is not found in dreams or in chaos but
in real live and in real ideas and in real art. I think Desolation Row
is like a collage, carefully made, presenting an image, Dylan's image,
of a mad world in motion. I totally agree with you when you say
that in Desolation Row Bob creates a certain mood by melting all these
images together, but that doesn't mean that he left out the detail in
favour of the big picture. All the individual images have meaning too.
To me at least.
In visions of Johanna, when he speaks of the Mona Lisa, he also condemns
the museums were this and other famous works of art reside(they go on
trial). Because the Mona Lisa is only worth something if her heart is
still beating, if you can feel her smile, if she's real. She's no
historical character, she lives on this world right here and now.
Maybe there is some metaphysical level, like a universal mind, where all
the archetypes of mankind float around, their names and faces change,
but they're real because they've lived and walked on this earth for
thousands of years and still do. Just like Mr. Jones, just like Johanna,
we all know them.
But that's not Surrealism. He's just extremely sensitive to this higher
level of reality.
By the way, I don't think surrealism even exists, Breton was a fool and
so was Dali, Most of their work is fantasy. They made conscious attempts
at being unconscious. It was just DADA all over again. And DADA was
bullsh$t too. What do you think is Surrealism anyway? Did you read
Freud? Don't thrust that guy.
I'm not saying there is no subconsciousness, it just doesn't work like
Surrealism says it does. It's more of a deja-vu thing I believe, you're
doing something, writing something, thinking some thought and all of a
sudden that thought connects with another thought you once read or
heard, and then that line of thought melts together with your own
idea(which is ofcourse also not really your own idea). If you have the
kind of talent that Dylan has you can connect thoughts that without that
talent would seem to have nothing in common. Dylan has a very special
memory, he doesn't remember facts the way other people do. I think
Nietsche once said that a bad reader 'takes what he needs and leaves the
rest', well maybe Dylan is a bad reader but he's certainly a genius in
taking what he needs.
This sounds a little abstract doesn't it, maybe I can give you an
example of what I mean with 'linking thoughts'.
Dylan definitely read 'The Waste Land' of T.S. Elliot before he wrote
Desolation Row and not just because he drops Elliot's name. Beside the
fact that Desolation Row has a lot in common with that great poem, Dylan
also took some images from it, although he uses them in a whole
different way. In the Waste Land section 'Burial Of The Dead' there's a
fortune teller(yes, a fortune teller!) named Madame Sosostris laying out
a pack of tarots. She has a lot more to say than this but here is a
short quote:
And here is the one-eyed merchant, and this card
Which is blank, is something he carries on his back,
Which I'm forbidden to see. I do not find the Hanged Man,
Fear death by water.
Dylan certainly found the hanged man didn't he, on a postcard I believe
and maybe, just maybe, the thing the one-eyed merchant carries on his
back( which Madame Sosostris is forbidden to see) is the heart attack
machine. And by the way, the titanic did sail at dawn and T.S. Elliot
drowned with it so don't take the boat if you receive a warning like
that.
Okay, another example, this time from the 'Game Of Chess' section of The
Waste Land:
You ought to be ashamed of yourself, I said, to look so antique
(and her only thirty-one.)
I can't help it, she said, pulling a long face,
It's them pills I took, to bring it off, she said
Poor Ophelia, do I have to say more…
I also don't agree with you that in Desolation Row 'individuals are
contrary to how they are
perceived in the real (or even fictional) world.' Einstein disguised as
Robin Hood can be perfectly capable of playing the electric violin, why
not, he's the archetype of the rebel-genius, he's no historical
character,
and in every Casanova there's an unsecure person too, if you don't
believe that, then just remind me to show you the scars.
Also, about the apocalyptic images (e.g. postcards of the hanging are
sold, the riot squad's restless, people strapped to heart attack
machines), why do you think these are surreal? To me they are very
precise descriptions of the state of our world, maybe a little
exaggerated but not much.
How did you come to the conclusion that DR is a 'profoundly political
song'?
I think what Dylan does in Desolation Row is criticise the limited ways
in which we experience art. But he's trying to show that truth to us,
not by speaking to the mind(persuading us with reason, as in politics)
but by speaking to the heart( how does it feel?)
The poets who are fighting in the captain's tower are not political,
maybe they stand for modernism, but not in a
political way, their fight is an intellectual fight, and they can't
win(or lose) because the fishermen & the mermaids hold the real truth.
It's all pretty symbolic and not surreal at all I think.
Ofcourse, I can't prove all this and it's not that important anyway, I
think you will agree with me when I say that
once the music starts playing all this talk about what this means or
that means is swept away by the pure beauty
of it all.
Greetings from Amsterdam
Erik
Dig...@wxs.nl
PS
Sorry for bad English, I'm foreign here…
Bill Tilghman
Ah, yes, the pure beauty of it all. Anyone have any comments on the guitar
playing of Mike Bloomfield which adds so much to this amazing song?
fjlepkowski
eric wrote in one of the best posts I've ever read on rmd:
He's more like an alchemist or a symbolist in my eyes(and ears) than a
surrealist.
& I say:
Bingo! I agree completely. That is the particular source of Dylan's power,
that is why we endlessly argue the meaning of his songs, that's why they
provide such endless stimulus for contemplation. And throughout your post,
what a superb, eloquent appreciation of Bob. Yes. Thanks.
Frank Lepkowski
Peter Stone Brown
>
> Regarding Desolation Row...
> Ah, yes, the pure beauty of it all. Anyone have any comments on the guitar
> playing of Mike Bloomfield which adds so much to this amazing song?
>
Yes, it's Charlie McCoy.
--
"I can't even remember what it was I came
here to get away from." --Bob Dylan
Peter Stone Brown
e-mail: pet...@erols.com
http://www.tangible-music.com/peterstonebrown/
ksta...@centuryinter.net
> In the Waste Land section 'Burial Of The Dead' there's a
> fortune teller(yes, a fortune teller!) named Madame Sosostris laying out
> a pack of tarots. She has a lot more to say than this but here is a
> short quote:
>
> And here is the one-eyed merchant, and this card
> Which is blank, is something he carries on his back,
> Which I'm forbidden to see. I do not find the Hanged Man,
> Fear death by water.
>
> Dylan certainly found the hanged man didn't he, on a postcard I believe
> and maybe, just maybe, the thing the one-eyed merchant carries on his
> back( which Madame Sosostris is forbidden to see) is the heart attack
> machine. And by the way, the titanic did sail at dawn and T.S. Elliot
> drowned with it so don't take the boat if you receive a warning like
> that.
First off, I'm not trying to start a fight or deliberately embarrass
the author of the above, I'm just compelled to clear some things up.
01: T.S. Eliot most certainly did NOT go down with the Titanic. I do hope
the author of the above was speaking figuratively in regards to "Desolation
Row".
02: The thing the one-eyed merchant ( Mr. Eugenides ) carries on his back
is closet homosexuality, refer to lines 207-214 of "The Fire Sermon"
section and know that "a weekend at the Metropole" ( hotel in Brighton )
is an invitation to an assignation. There are other interpretations, to
be sure, but this one tends to stick. This verse is based on an actual
occurrence in Eliot's life. I cannot say if Old Possum accepted.
I'm quite aware that there was alot of free-association going on in the quoted
post, I just didn't want those unfamiliar with Eliot or "The Waste Land" to
assume innacurate information as fact. Since this is a Dylan group and not an
Eliot group, I suppose it ultimately doesn't matter, but I'm the type of guy
who takes it upon himself to point this stuff out even if the consequences are
dire... Like that time in high school when I had the bejesus beaten out of me
when I corrected some jerk in a metal T-shirt that Jimi Hendrix DIDN'T write
"All Along The Watchtower" and that the line was "Plough-man dig my earth", NOT
"dig my herb". Anyhoo, "WL" probably did inspire "DR" indirectly. I think most
people familiar with both works would concede as much.
Just another hypocrite lecteur,
- Keith
warren barr
>The discussion stated recently that some good ones are:
>
>1) 25. June, 1995, Washington, RFK
>2) 18. Jan. 1998, Madison Sq. G. (B.D. Doing the Big Apple)
>3) 21. June 1998, Glasgow
>
>Last night I heard 2) which is the only of these 3 I have heard. I
>think the public 'yawl' in the beginning is very disturbing.
>
>My favorites are:
>
>1) from Escaping of the Run, vol. 2, Utrecht, 1997 (also has a nice
>Tom Thumb and Positively 4th)
>2) from Guitarts Kissing, 1966
>
In the Glasgow performance he blows the first verse. I was at the 1/18/98
show and although it was a religious experience to see him perform it live,
it doesn't come close to 6/25/95. The Manchester '66 performance of this
song is my favorite but in my original post I asked if anyone knew of any
performance of this song post '66 that comes close to the 6/25/95 performance.
Warren
Lloyd Fonvielle
ksta...@centuryinter.net wrote:
> Since this is a Dylan group and not an Eliot group . . .
Anything and anyone whirling around in Dylan's cosmos is relevant here . . . from
Handy-Dandy to Tiny Montgomery, fighting in the captain's tower . . .
Peter Stone Brown
>
>
> Anything and anyone whirling around in Dylan's cosmos is relevant here . . . from
> Handy-Dandy to Tiny Montgomery, fighting in the captain's tower . . .
When did this happen and who won, Dandy or Montgomery? Was the captain there? Is this
when the controvery started to surround Dandy or did that come earlier or later, and
were the dogs and pigeons flying up and fluttering around?
Lee Marshall
ksta...@centuryinter.net wrote:
> I think most
> people familiar with both works would concede as much.
>
> I see no reason to connect WL and DR other than their length. It seems a little
> lazy (or a throwback to sixties' 'rock academicism' to suggest a relation. Didn't
> Dylan once say he didn't like Eliot?
Lee
Lloyd Fonvielle
Peter Stone Brown wrote:
> Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > Anything and anyone whirling around in Dylan's cosmos is relevant here . . . from
> > Handy-Dandy to Tiny Montgomery, fighting in the captain's tower . . .
>
> When did this happen and who won, Dandy or Montgomery? Was the captain there? Is this
> when the controvery started to surround Dandy or did that come earlier or later, and
> were the dogs and pigeons flying up and fluttering around?
The fight ended before a decision -- apparently a man with a badge skipped by -- but Tiny
broke every bone in Dandy's body. Dandy just laughed at him, as though nothing had
happened -- a moral victory, I guess.
Peter Stone Brown
>
>
> The fight ended before a decision -- apparently a man with a badge skipped by -- but Tiny
> broke every bone in Dandy's body. Dandy just laughed at him, as though nothing had
> happened -- a moral victory, I guess.
Maybe his all girl orchestra struck up the band and took him home.
Lloyd Fonvielle
Peter Stone Brown wrote:
> Lloyd Fonvielle wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > The fight ended before a decision -- apparently a man with a badge skipped by -- but Tiny
> > broke every bone in Dandy's body. Dandy just laughed at him, as though nothing had
> > happened -- a moral victory, I guess.
>
> Maybe his all girl orchestra struck up the band and took him home.
Yeah, but you know Dandy -- as they carried him out he waved and said, "Well, so long, boys --
I'll see you tomorrow!" . . . and was as good as his word.