Time Out Of Mind - Overrated?
MrPither12
down and it's easier to actually hear the record over the hype.... So what are
we left with? To me, certainly one of Bob's better efforts in 20 years (which
is both saying a lot and saying very little), with a few really good songs (Not
Dark Yet, Highlands) and one incredibly bad one (Make You Feel My Love).... But
is it really great? Should it proudly take it's place alongside Freewheelin,
Hwy61, BOB, Live 66, BOTT and so forth - or a somewhat lesser position,
somewhere around Oh Mercy, TBT, New Morning and such?
IMHO, TOOM is very very god - but not a classic. The reason I say this has less
to do with the material than it does the performance. And that's what TOOM is
to me: a "performance" versus an "experience". I just don't believe Bob for one
moment on it. To me it is one of the few times I can actually hear Bob acting,
and to me if Bob doesn't sound like he believes it, no matter how silly the
songs he's singing (Self-Portrait, anyone?) then it's not primo Bob. It's Bob
putting on the make-up and playing a role (the role of "Bob"), which is okay,
but it ain't real. Listen to the difference between "Idiot Wind" and "Love
Sick". Both songs are "I-have-had-enough-and-am-gonna-tell-ya" sort of tunes,
but the dif is I believe Bob's performance on "IW", I believe every word, and I
don't on "LS." And it's not because one is angrier than the other, it's a
question as to the singer's committment to the words.
Bile and anger and truth and love used to be common on Bob's records; a given -
but on TOOM I believe it's an act, an attempt by Bob - to be Bob. It doesn't
make me enjoy TOOM any less ---but as "a performance" not as a true
"experience."
Kristian Baardsen
my love as a bad, not even a "quite good" song. When I first heard it, I
couldn't believe that such a great song could still be written.
And in my opinion, the album is pretty real, and Dylan sounds genuine to
me. Even though I've heard better versions of many of the songs live.
Personally, I rate it among Dylans very best albums.
Kristian
JeffW
<snip>
>IMHO, TOOM is very very god - but not a classic. The reason I say this has less
>to do with the material than it does the performance. And that's what TOOM is
>to me: a "performance" versus an "experience". I just don't believe Bob for one
>moment on it. To me it is one of the few times I can actually hear Bob acting,
>and to me if Bob doesn't sound like he believes it, no matter how silly the
>songs he's singing (Self-Portrait, anyone?) then it's not primo Bob. It's Bob
>putting on the make-up and playing a role (the role of "Bob"), which is okay,
>but it ain't real. Listen to the difference between "Idiot Wind" and "Love
>Sick". Both songs are "I-have-had-enough-and-am-gonna-tell-ya" sort of tunes,
>but the dif is I believe Bob's performance on "IW", I believe every word, and I
>don't on "LS." And it's not because one is angrier than the other, it's a
>question as to the singer's committment to the words.
What you may hear as Bob's lack of committment to the words is, to my ears,
his weariness with all words. And it's as convincing as anything I've heard.
martin blank
>
> Personally, I rate it among Dylans very best albums.
>
> Kristian
personally, i rate it unlistenable at any speed and in any mental state altered
or unaltered.
vic
don freeman
> to do with the material than it does the performance. And that's what TOOM is
> to me: a "performance" versus an "experience". I just don't believe Bob for one
> Sick". Both songs are "I-have-had-enough-and-am-gonna-tell-ya" sort of tunes,
> but the dif is I believe Bob's performance on "IW", I believe every word, and I
> don't on "LS." And it's not because one is angrier than the other, it's a
> question as to the singer's committment to the words.
This is a very interesting point you've raised. I've always felt we won't get a
true Bob Dylan revival with great singing again until he starts writing songs he
really believes in. For me, two things drag TOOM down. The songs don't have enough
to draw me in that much, and the singing is only good half the time.
"Make You Feel My Love" is a good example of this. I agree with you that it's got
the worst lyrics on the album, and it also has the worst singing. "Highland" has
that moment in the middle where the Dylan magic seems to be back, both lyrically
and the way he sounds.
I too yearn for performances where I can believe Bob. I think he does too.
Trev (bob Fan) Gibb
yeah sum of yer points r spot on, and we all haveour own opinions. but TOOM
is real.
Empire Burlesque isnt a real record that was acted, hence the lyrics. (still
like sum of the songs tho)
well bobs comeback is here again, hes in the top ten album charts in the uk
from 12 to 9. previously at no 4.
i understand the songs arent well crafted in the terms of chord progressions
and so on.
but thats not the aim of a bob record, hes not into that.
hes into intense emotion around basic chords and musical style and superb
lyrics.
TOOM is a live performance to me, its often improvised and the sound
reocrding is superb. only other time he reached this feeling of being there,
was with the song Shot Of Love
love toom, althopugh we're not talkin genius songs, we're talkin greta
performance, and i terms of blues they are played ahnd sung well.
and toom achieves wot it strives for. we shud stop comparing dylan to his
previous forms.
TOOM is a good album.
Trev
"MrPither12" <mrpit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618072132...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
Qwertydoob
PhilDavis51
live.......altho I play the studio album a lot more than say, Under The Red
Sky........Just my two euros worth........Phil
" are birds free
from the chains
of the skyway?"
Richard Hart Hayes
horrible (!) photos he contributed to the album's layout.
Mike Bodner
> IMHO, TOOM is very very god - but not a classic. The reason I say this has less
> to do with the material than it does the performance. And that's what TOOM is
> to me: a "performance" versus an "experience". I just don't believe Bob for one
> moment on it. To me it is one of the few times I can actually hear Bob acting,
> and to me if Bob doesn't sound like he believes it, no matter how silly the
> songs he's singing (Self-Portrait, anyone?) then it's not primo Bob.
I think what you're hearing (and what's turning you off) is the
self-consciousness of the singing on TOOM. to me, it sounds as if he,
Lanois, or the two of them spent more time trying to sculpt a voice than
they did getting that voice to perform. it's one of the stupid things I
worry about--that Bob has/will become so obsessed by the sound of his
own voice that he'll forget that, as Paul Williams suggests, he sings
better without one. listen to the Roseland version of "Shelter From the
Storm" on bobdylan.com--he doesn't give a damn if his voice cracks, and
it's glorious. in contrast, some of the 2000 stuff I've heard is (at
it's worst & lots of exceptions) an experiment in which vocal tone can
change three times in one line, searching for the most inoffensive sound
and overlaying a simple melody that everyone can enjoy on top of it.
needless to say, not always the stuff of great performance. more along
the veteran entertainer vein.
I remember reading an interview with Don Was in The Telegraph--Bob went
over every line on UTRS with great care that everything was just right.
they did and re-did until it was just so. the finished, husky, smoky
growl may be nice on the ears, but that stuff ain't real.
Mike
Alan Fraser
<Kristian...@stud.jbi.hio.no> wrote:
>> Dark Yet, Highlands) and one incredibly bad one (Make You Feel My Love)....
>If you've ever been in love, you cannot possobly think of Make you feel
>my love as a bad, not even a "quite good" song. When I first heard it, I
>couldn't believe that such a great song could still be written.
Exactly. It's a love song that works extremely well within its own
context. It's been enormously successful, too, which proves that Bob
knows how to write a commercial song when he wants to. And, as people
here have pointed out, the lyrics are far more subtle than your
average commercial ditty.
Alan
Ze 39steps
I haven't REALLY been in love...or that I REALLY don't like "To Make You Feel
My Love." Why would you even make a comment like that?
And the fact that it was a commercial hit (by other people), what does that
mean? You want me to name some other hits of the past 5 years?
I agree with the original poster. I love TOOM, and I appreciate the more
straightforward lyrics, but they don't seem that genuine or effective to me.
The best lines, and the most interesting thing about them, are the blues and
folk lyrics he borrows. I've said this before I think, I always wanted to hear
Dylan write death songs, songs about mortality, because naturally, lots of
people want to hear a great artist's take on the big issues. It just doesn't
completely work for me. "Not Dark Yet" is a great song, but a lot of the
lyrics seem more like clever lines than real sentiments. I know most of you
will disagree. To me, Lou Reed's "Magic and Loss" is a more successful album
regarding these issues, although it's also a bigger failure on some levels, and
I prefer to listen to TOOM. Reed's album really aspires to be something
different, more insightful, doesn't worry about alienating anybody, it seems
honest, personal, complex. And in terms of break up albums, "Blood on the
Tracks" is definitely more interesting, to me anyway. Dylan does sound weary
on Time Out of Mind,
Check out my goddamn website:
www.mp3.com/montgomerycleft
Ze 39steps
and again, I really like it, but it is not the work of a great poet to me.
I can already see some of your fists and teeth are clenched.
Tur...@webtv.net
stages of his and my growth...for this time and stage in my life it is
my favorite.... magic and moving...
if the next one ....has the same effect on me for this next time and
stage I will be
extremely pleased...tp
ps although I enjoy Live Bob the best I still can go back and enjoy the
studio versions
including TOOM...happy trails Bobaloos !
Greg Wallace
Not Dark Yet. I don't think the record has his greatest lyrics (not close)
or his greatest singing (not close either) but the only songs I don't care
for are "Can't Wait" and a large chunk of "Highlands" (the put on if there's
a put on to hear on TOOM). "Make you Feel my Love" is a throwback to
"Empire Burlesque" and works as a song IMO. TOOM was probably worth its
Grammy in 1997. It's not Highway 61 but I don't know when you're going to
hear another one like that. Probably never.
"MrPither12" <mrpit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618072132...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
JeffW
>Overrated compared to what? Love Sick is plenty convincing to me and so is
>Not Dark Yet. I don't think the record has his greatest lyrics (not close)
>or his greatest singing (not close either) but the only songs I don't care
>for are "Can't Wait" and a large chunk of "Highlands" (the put on if there's
>a put on to hear on TOOM). "Make you Feel my Love" is a throwback to
>"Empire Burlesque" and works as a song IMO. TOOM was probably worth its
>Grammy in 1997. It's not Highway 61 but I don't know when you're going to
>hear another one like that. Probably never.
I wouldn't want to hear Bob try to follow up Highway 61. That's a young man's
album, just as TOOM is the work of age and hard-won experience. One of the
marvellous things about the man as an artist is that he grew up. He's not
trapped in the ghost of his youth. He wears his years with dignity and heavy
grace, unlike so many of his contemporaries, and even his acolytes.
Linn Carpenter
aren't used to Bob singing such a simplistic and loving song straight
from the heart because he doesn't do it often. His songs are so full of
imagery, complex metaphors and double-meanings which are wonderful, but
when a simple, uncomplicated piece of work comes from the man, people
consider it schmaltzy and so un-Dylan like. Why can't the man just
write and sing a love song that says what he feels and says he loves her
more than life in just those words without, to paraphrase Bob,
pussyfooting around? Every song Dylan sings does not have to be so
thought-provoking. Let the guy be in love.
Linn
robertandrews
>Should it proudly take it's place alongside Freewheelin, Hwy61, BOB, Live
66, BOTT and so forth - or a somewhat lesser position, somewhere around Oh
Mercy, TBT, New Morning and such?
Sometimes I think of it as a flawed Blood On the Tracks of middle (old?)
age, whose overall power exceeds any of his post-70's original albums.
>I just don't believe Bob for one moment on it.
I believe Highlands, Doorway, Not Dark Yet, Cold Irons Bound & Trying to Get
to Heaven. Love Sick sounds a bit affected, & though the essential idea of
the song is cute, some of the lyrics are weak. I don't believe Make You
Feel My Love, but we've been through that.
It's hard to mix humor & sadness, & Dylan doesn't always pull it off. Maybe
he'll delve deeper into black comedy, following Highlands & Things Have
Changed. Or maybe just comedy.
p.s. Spinal Tap's cover of Make You Feel My Love (Pump) just hit #1 in
Japan.
Stephen Walker
>
>
> Exactly. It's a love song that works extremely well within its own
> context. It's been enormously successful, too, which proves that Bob
> knows how to write a commercial song when he wants to. And, as people
> here have pointed out, the lyrics are far more subtle than your
> average commercial ditty.
>
> Alan
my wife likes Dylan but isn't a freak like me-when I played TOOM for her she
immediately freaked over "Make You Feel My Love" and her 2 favorite Bob
performances before were "Emotionally Yours" and "You Belong To Me"(from
Natural Born Killers, I think) I read somewhere that Dylan claims he's made
more money from "Make You Feel My Love" than any one song.
Steve
Linn Carpenter
Linn
Patricia Jungwirth
thinking is worth zero. Telepathy as music criticism is highly overrated.
Or, as the joker said to the mindreader, "You're okay, how am I?"
>Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:42:04 GMT
>From: don freeman <dfr...@home.com>
>> question as to the singer's committment to the words.
>
>I too yearn for performances where I can believe Bob. I think he does too.
>
>
Tricia
"I wish I was on some Australian mountain range
I got no reason to be there but
I imagine it would be some kinda change... "
-Bob Dylan, 'Outlaw Blues'
-January 1965
***tric...@aardvark.net.au
Blonde On Blonde: Bob Dylan in Melbourne, 1966:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/5581/
http://www.allexperts.com/displayExpert.asp?Expert=1806
Patricia Jungwirth
imagine... Barry White singing it... or Otis Reding... or that guy from the
O'Jays...
Delia
composed (we think) in the light of specific happenings in Dylan's life. So
we think we know more about what Idiot Wind is about than we do Lovesick. I
think that like many great artists, Dylan's always used his own life and
emotions as grist for his mill and by this time in his life he's got a lot
of grist to use. . TOOM is composed from a point of reflection. The songs
of unhappy love may have been drawn from past experience but they're chosen
for specific reasons. I don't think this makes them less "real" only
different.
There have been a lot of very perceptive posts from time to time about the
ways the songs in TOOM work together to create a whole which is greater
than the sum of the parts. I think that's why TMYFML belongs in the album.
It presents the aspect of longing. (I think it was Lloyd who defended it
much better than I'm doing a while back.)
But there's something else that I've noticed about TOOM that I find
fascinating. There's kind of a return to surrealism. It's strongest in
Cold Irons Bound and Highlands, but it's there in the other songs, too if
you start thinking about it A few examples:
Well, the road is rocky and the hillside's mud
Up over my head nothing but clouds of blood.
or
Oh, the winds in Chicago have torn me to shreds
Reality has always had too many heads.
or
I step outside back to the busy street, but
nobody's going anywhere.
Actually when I started looking at the lyrics examples started to pop out at
me all over the place. Just take a look. There's something about the
juxtaposition of the old time lines from blues or gospel or Robert Burns or
wherever with present day absurdity that draws out the surrealism,
especially in Highlands.
For me TOOM is an album that exhibits more depth the more I listen to it.
(pace, Vic)
"MrPither12" <mrpit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010618072132...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
Howard Mirowitz
that seems to be so dreamlike. Kind of like Rene Magritte meets Leadbelly.
And the surrealism continues in "Things Have Changed."
And don't you think there is definitely something surreal in Dylan singing
"Return to Me" in Italian ?
I can't wait for the next album ...
H.
"Delia" <hanse...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:1VBX6.1878$c7.7...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
Ze 39steps
write and sing a love song that says what he feels and says he loves her
more than life in just those words without, to paraphrase Bob,
pussyfooting around? >>
What do you mean, why can't he? He can, he can do whatever he wants. No one
can stop him. That song made him a lot of money, lots of people love it. Some
don't. I don't. Who cares?
don freeman
>I too yearn for performances where I can believe Bob. I think he does too.
Patricia Jungwirth wrote:
> Personally I think that what you, or anyone else, think someone else is
> thinking is worth zero. Telepathy as music criticism is highly overrated.
> Or, as the joker said to the mindreader, "You're okay, how am I?"
I think that when Dylan wrote " don't get up, gentlemen, I'm just passing
through" that he was using very understated sarcasm. I think Dylan cares a lot
about his career and his craft and his art.
What do you think, Patricia?
RobertDDye
Feel Love works in two ways. On the surface, it's a straight love song. But I
really feel it's written by someone who is experiencing unrequited love. He
wants the other person so badly, but there is no reciprocity. Dylan's singing
conveys someone who is bitter and resigned to the fact that love with this
person will never happen, but still clings to that hope. "I know you haven't
made your mind up yet... I could make you happy... you ain't seen nothin' like
me yet." It certainly fits in with the rest of the album's tone.
<< Subject: Time Out Of Mind - Overrated?
From: mrpit...@aol.com (MrPither12)
Date: Mon, Jun 18, 2001 7:21 AM
Message-id: <20010618072132...@ng-ck1.aol.com>
tom .
that isn't completely true, marty; you have chatted about how you like one song on
the album and in this forum you even stated that you can listen to the song (see
below). i wasn't going to mention this but you keep forgetting to. so hey, liking
one song on a pop album ain't that bad...it's not like you had to pay for it.
anyway, we're all looking forward to your book. about marty's book (he's too shy
to talk about it or share so i will) - he emailed this unpublished masterpiece of
visionary commentary to some mutual acquaintances of ours. one thought it was
really swell except she thought the sentences are too long and he used the word
poetic too much. the book's topic is something about the groovy psychedelia
movement of the far out sixties and about how dylan was once as groovy as the
jefferson airplane of whom he's a huge fan. personally, i never really got into
the airplane, or the starship for that matter, because unlike marty, i do not long
for the return of the days of the sixties so i can relive my youth and, as such,
think the airplane pretty much blew. anyway, regarding all of this silliness about
rating toom, you people are too much - you treat albums as if they're actual works
of art. get over it, boneheads. they're only albums. little collections of
pop/rock and roll ditties. so come on, get over yourselves, grow up, and move on.
"From: Martin Blank (pub...@amber.indstate.edu)
Subject: Re: Oh mercy and TOOM overrated!?
Newsgroups: rec.music.dylan
Date: 2000/11/28
Linn Carpenter wrote:
> Oh, Martin/Vic/whoever you are, please. You've posted this opinion previously
and
> I really can't believe you can even say this. You're obviously begging to be
> flamed or have a tin ear. You think Standing in the Doorway, Tryin' To Get To
> Heaven, Not Dark Yet and Cold Irons Bound are unlistenable? Come on.
> Linn
i woulldn't say it if i didn't believe. the only song i can bear to listen to on
toom
is dirt road blues.
best regards,
vic"
tony z
> Sick". Both songs are "I-have-had-enough-and-am-gonna-tell-ya" sort of tunes,
> but the dif is I believe Bob's performance on "IW", I believe every word, and I
> don't on "LS." And it's not because one is angrier than the other, it's a
> question as to the singer's committment to the words.
>
> Bile and anger and truth and love used to be common on Bob's records; a given -
> but on TOOM I believe it's an act, an attempt by Bob - to be Bob. It doesn't
> make me enjoy TOOM any less ---but as "a performance" not as a true
> "experience."
mr. Pither, this is a thought-provoking post. i am inclined not to
agree with it, but first i wonder if you could ponder what it is
EXACTLY that strikes you in Dylan's manner of singing that evokes this
lack of ‘believability'.
"the singer's commitment to the words." i like that phrase, but how
does one measure such a commitment?
you say it strikes you that way & that you don't believe a word of it,
but you don't get real specific (i know when one is speaking of
musical sound, which takes place in a temporal mode, it's difficult to
put one's sense of it into words, but it would be helpful).
you say to compare Love Sick to Idiot Wind. (Idiot Wind = commitment,
Love Sick doesn't = commitment.) i think that is an unfair comparison
& i'll tell you why. i think it has to do with passionate displays in
a vocal performance.
to my mind, Dylan has never been a particularly ‘passionate' singer.
he rarely growls or shouts (barring his first album when he was
mimicking the blues & his tour with the Band in the early 70's - the
name of that live album escapes me at the moment – where he shouts
nearly every line of every song). such passionate displays can be
effective, but sound false if overused.
for the most part, Dylan has always allowed the lyric of his song to
speak for itself. what accounts for his vocal performance is his
inflection, what words in a phrase are emphasized. his vocalizing
follows speech in that regard & it's that that gives it a distinctive
‘voice', as if the real person behind the words is coming out from
behind the conventions of ‘singing' or giving a ‘performance'.
now Idiot Wind is the one song (i can hardly think of another) where
Dylan lets it all loose. he shouts many times during its performance,
stretches his vocal chords to the max. anger is certainly the emotion
at work here, even revenge.
Love Sick is NOT that kind of a song. the very title tells us it's
not. it's about weariness. giving up. a lack of passion, not a
heightened over-the-top display of passion. to my ears, his
performance (his vocalizing) is not mannered at all, but fits the song
perfectly.
to compare Love Sick to Idiot Wind is like comparing a turtle to an
eagle then complaining that the turtle cannot fly.
you say that is not that one is "angrier than the other, it's a
question as to the singer's committment to the words."
i hear his voice crack on the last line, the line that contradicts
everything that came before it "I'd give anything to be with you…"
that doesn't sound manufactured, or mannered, rather it stands as
coming from a position of being absolutely immersed in one's material,
in the natural display of emotion that comes out when one is 'living,
speaking and breathing' the truth & reality of the words in that very
moment.
it's a fine performance & there are many great performances throughout
the entire album. Dylan's voice cracks emotion & levels of meaning
the way a prism refracts light. just to hear him sing the line "when
you think you've lost everything, you find out you can always lose a
little more" is a grand experience.
if yr a singer, or write yr own songs, you may know how difficult it
is to outdo Dylan at this game. try singing any song on TOOM & give
it that treatment. it won't stand. even Make You Feel My Love
suffers when other singers sing it.
MYFML has some bad lines in it (when Dylan uses the cheap line
"everyone is on yr case" it makes me flinch). but Dylan has used such
slang & the vernacular of ‘street talk' throughout his entire career.
i've come to the conclusion that he does it purposely cuz it calls
attention to itself - - you can almost hear him saying to himself, as
he is about to scratch out that line, "hmmm, no other writer would use
a line like that." so he keeps it. he takes risks. it's memorable.
he makes it work.
MYFML when matched against Dylan's other work doesn't come off well at
all, but when matched against anything pouring out of the radio it
shines. it's basically a lone piano and a singer… stripped down that
way, the words gain power. that voice stands out as something stark &
naked & pure. when i first heard it on the radio i didn't even know
it was Dylan. i thought, wow, who is this guy? what a great voice!
& he writes like Dylan, too!
then i found out it was Dylan! all of a sudden the song didn't sound
so good anymore. cuz we all know what heights Dylan is capable of. &
it's not fair to hold him to that standard, a standard that he, after
all, created.
:-) T o n y
MrPither12
Love Sick is compariable to Idiot Wind only in that they both (are supposed) to
express strong emotions (anger and resignantion, if you wish). IW is a raw,
searing performance, totally believable. LS sounds hesitive, overly rehearsed
and affected. To me it doesn't express resignation at all, it expresses a
"performance" of resignantion. Which (to me) is representative of the 80& of
the record. <Shrugs> You like TOOM, I think it's only okay. I don't think it's
classic, it's merely better than most of his last 20 years of stuff.
I think MYFMYL is (sorry) total pap. Not pop - pap. It's pop too, but Billy
Joel pop. late 90s Elton pop. Bad pop. Poop. Schmaltz. It's up there with DC5's
"Because I love You" or the Bangles "Eternal Flame" or some such cal.... it
should (and probably was) played at someone's prom.... it may be "better" than
current radio offerings, but that is faint praise. It's not even good (bad)
enough to have made the cut on Self Portrait....
Peter Stone Brown
" tom ." <blin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3B2FA31C...@hotmail.com...
>
>
so come on, get over yourselves, grow up, and move on.
>
I Don't Wanna Grow Up
(Tom Waits/K. Brennan)
When I'm lyin' in my bed at night
I don't wanna grow up
Nothin' ever seems to turn out right
I don't wanna grow up
How do you move in a world of fog
That's always changing things
Makes me wish that I could be a dog
When I see the price that you pay
I don't wanna grow up
I don't ever wanna be that way
I don't wanna grow up
Seems like folks turn into things
That they'd never want
The only thing to live for
Is today...
I'm gonna put a hole in my TV set
I don't wanna grow up
Open up the medicine chest
And I don't wanna grow up
I don't wanna have to shout it out
I don't want my hair to fall out
I don't wanna be filled with doubt
I don't wanna be a good boy scout
I don't wanna have to learn to count
I don't wanna have the biggest amount
I don't wanna grow up
Well when I see my parents fight
I don't wanna grow up
They all go out and drinking all night
And I don't wanna grow up
I'd rather stay here in my room
Nothin' out there but sad and gloom
I don't wanna live in a big old Tomb
On Grand Street
When I see the 5 o'clock news
I don't wanna grow up
Comb their hair and shine their shoes
I don't wanna grow up
Stay around in my old hometown
I don't wanna put no money down
I don't wanna get me a big old loan
Work them fingers to the bone
I don't wanna float a broom
Fall in love and get married then boom
How the hell did I get here so soon
I don't wanna grow up
--
"Where the angels' voices whisper to the souls of previous times." --Bob
Dylan
Peter Stone Brown
e-mail: ps...@earthlink.net
http://store.yahoo.com/tangible-music/petstonbrowi.html
Linn Carpenter
me love it even more. :-)
Linn
maxenglish
nothing)... -and so is World Gone Wrong...
-But they're originally-digital... And digital just doesn't cut
it!...
Tricia J
>
>What do you think, Patricia?
What do I think about what? What do I think about what you think Dylan
thinks? I told you what I think about that!
About beleivable performances? I think the performance of 'Make You
Feel My Love' from Atlantic City last November is pretty damn
believable, maybe because while I'm watching it and listening to it,
this funny little guy who's singing it makes me believe he's a great
soul singer, like Barry White or something, and when I blink and look
again, he's Bob Dylan. That's pretty amazing. Or at least I think it
is.
tony z
agree with it, but first i wonder if you could ponder what it is
EXACTLY that strikes you in Dylan's manner of singing that evokes this
lack of ‘believability'.
"the singer's commitment to the words." i like that phrase, but how
does one measure such a commitment?
you say it strikes you that way & that you don't believe a word of it,
but you don't get real specific (i know when one is speaking of
musical sound, which takes place in a temporal mode, it's difficult to
put one's sense of it into words, but it would be helpful).
you say to compare Love Sick to Idiot Wind. (Idiot Wind = commitment,
Love Sick doesn't = commitment.) i think that is an unfair comparison
& i'll tell you why. i think it has to do with passionate displays of
a vocal performance.
to my mind, Dylan has never been a particularly ‘passionate' singer.
he rarely growls or shouts (barring his first album when he was
mimicking the blues & his tour with the Band in the early 70's - the
name of that live album escapes me at the moment – where he shouts
nearly every line of every song). such passionate displays can be
effective, but sound false if overused.
for the most part, Dylan has always allowed the lyric of his song to
speak for itself. what accounts for his vocal performance is his
inflection, what words in a phrase are emphasized. his vocalizing
follows speech in that regard & it's that that gives it a distinctive
‘voice', as if the real person behind the words is coming out from
behind the conventions of ‘singing' or giving a ‘performance'.
now Idiot Wind is the one song (i can hardly think of another) where
Dylan lets it all loose. he shouts many times during its performance,
stretches his vocal chords to the max. anger is certainly the emotion
at work here, even revenge.
Love Sick is NOT that kind of a song. the very title tells us it's
not. it's about weariness. giving up. a lack of passion, not a
heightened over-the-top display of passion. to my ears, his
performance (his vocalizing) is not mannered at all, but fits the song
perfectly.
to compare Love Sick to Idiot Wind is like comparing a turtle to an
eagle then complaining that the turtle cannot fly.
you say that is not that one is "angrier than the other, it's a
question as to the singer's committment to the words."
i hear his voice crack on the last line, the line that contradicts
everything that came before it "I'd give anything to be with you…"
that doesn't sound manufactured, or mannered, rather it stands as
coming from a position of being absolutely immersed in one's material,
in the natural display of emotion that comes out when one is ‘living,
speaking and breathing' the truth & reality of the words in that very
moment.
it's a fine performance & there are many great performances throughout
the entire album. Dylan's voice cracks emotion & levels of meaning
the way a prism refracts light. just to hear him sing the line "when
you think you've lost everything, you find out you can always lose a
little more" is a grand experience.
if yr a singer, or write yr own songs, you may know how difficult it
is to outdo Dylan at this game. try singing any song on TOOM & give
it that treatment. it won't stand. even Make You Feel My Love
suffers when other singers sing it.
MYFML has some bad lines in it (when Dylan uses the cheap line
"everyone is on yr case" it makes me flinch). but Dylan has used such
slang & the vernacular of ‘street talk', throughout his entire career.
i've come to the conclusion that he does it purposely cuz it calls
attention to itself - - you can almost hear him saying to himself, as
he is about to scratch out that line, "hmmm, no other writer would use
a line like that." so he keeps it. he takes risks. it's memorable.
he makes it work.
MYFML when matched against Dylan's other work doesn't come off well at
all, but when matched against anything pouring out of the radio it
shines. it's basically a lone piano and a singer… stripped down that
way, the words gain power. that voice stands out as something stark &
naked & pure. when i first heard it on the radio i didn't even know
it was Dylan. i thought, wow, who is this guy? what a great voice!
& he writes like Dylan, too!
then i found out it was Dylan! all of a sudden the song didn't sound
so good anymore. cuz we all know what heights Dylan is capable of. &
it's not fair to hold him to that standard, a standard that he, after
all, created.
:-) t o n y
don freeman
> MYFML has some bad lines in it (when Dylan uses the cheap line
> "everyone is on yr case" it makes me flinch). but Dylan has used such
> slang & the vernacular of ‘street talk' throughout his entire career.
That line "everyone is on yr case" makes me flinch too. Dylan's vernacular was
always artful and kind of thrilling, right up to "Hurricane," but I think it got
messed up with the cliché problem that surfaced after Street Legal.
Linn Carpenter
world is on your case", not "everyone is on yr case". It's not Gomer
Pyle singing here, guys. I will admit, though, that this is the only
line in the song I don't care for. Other than that, it's a beautiful
ballad.
Linn
don freeman
Linn Carpenter wrote:
> I will admit, though, that this is the only
> line in the song I don't care for.
Oh my god, Linn, we count on you liking every line of every Bob Dylan song!
This could end up growing like a cancer. First you won't like a line, then a verse
will seem a bit irrelevant, and the next thing you know, everything Dylan does will
start sounding like a bad Donovan album.
Linn Carpenter
song? There are a few Dylan songs I don't care for, though, I believe
they all have a certain charm and uniqueness.
Linn
Delia
"Howard Mirowitz" <how...@mirowitz.com> wrote in message
news:eGDX6.4722$Uj6....@open-news.pacbell.net...
>... Now I finally think I know what it is about TOOM
> that seems to be so dreamlike. Kind of like Rene Magritte meets
Leadbelly.
That's it. Great metaphor.
> And the surrealism continues in "Things Have Changed."
It does.
> And don't you think there is definitely something surreal in Dylan
singing
> "Return to Me" in Italian ?
This is true, too, but I can pass on it here :)
> I can't wait for the next album ...
>
> H.
Can't Wait
martin blank
don freeman wrote:
> MrPither12 wrote:
>
> > MYFML has some bad lines in it (when Dylan uses the cheap line
> > "everyone is on yr case" it makes me flinch). but Dylan has used such
> > slang & the vernacular of ‘street talk' throughout his entire career.
>
> That line "everyone is on yr case" makes me flinch too.
that's part of my (major) problem too with toom. too many lines that make me flinch
to the point of embarassment.
best regards,
vic
martin blank
don freeman wrote:
> Linn Carpenter wrote:
>
> > I will admit, though, that this is the only
> > line in the song I don't care for.
>
> Oh my god, Linn, we count on you liking every line of every Bob Dylan song!
>
yeah! what gives? bob IS perfect after all.
best regards,
vic
tony z
> express strong emotions (anger and resignantion, if you wish). IW is a raw,
> searing performance, totally believable. LS sounds hesitive, overly rehearsed
> and affected. To me it doesn't express resignation at all, it expresses a
> "performance" of resignantion. Which (to me) is representative of the 80& of
> the record. <Shrugs> You like TOOM, I think it's only okay. I don't think it's
> classic, it's merely better than most of his last 20 years of stuff.
>
Mr. Pither:
i understand your idea that one performance is authentic & the other
is mannered, but i am asking you to use some introspection & possibly
come to grips as to WHY you judge them that way. in other words, WHAT
is it in the performance of Love Sick that makes it sound
overly-rehearsed, stilted, mannered or unauthentic to you?
i specifically mentioned the last line (an important line that sheds
light upon the entire song) that particularly strikes me as sounding
as an authentic delivery.
side note: a fellow musician of mine, after going thru take after take
after take of a song of mine, expressed the opinion that everything in
the vocal performance of the song can be "figured out beforehand" - -
the lines that need emphasizing, how to deliver a phrase, basically
saying that authentic passion (for lack of a better term) can be
'pre-programmed' into the song.
i take it that both you & i disagree with that.
i believe that there's something about the way a vocal line lays
across the landscape of the music (how that music is particularly
played from one take to the next) that makes the performance succeed
or not. i believe each particular performance brings out some kinda
feeling in the interplay of vocal & music, how the music affects the
vocal, how the vocal changes how the musicians play from take to take.
normally i get my most authentic performance within the first 2 –3
takes, often the first, when musicians are still basically ‘learning'
or ‘feeling their way through' - - the music has more of a newness to
it, unafraid to explore parts of sonic territory that after a few
takes, become routine.
any thoughts?
please don't take this as an attack, it's a sincere question to find
out specifically where we differ.
:-) t o n y Z
nates
> That line "everyone is on yr case" makes me flinch too. Dylan's vernacular was
> always artful and kind of thrilling, right up to "Hurricane," but I think it got
> messed up with the cliché problem that surfaced after Street Legal.
"he's tall, dark & handsome
and your holding his hand...."
:-(
- nate
tony z
very good point about cliche's... maybe you can expound on that?
tony z
Don, get it right... Mr. Pither didn't write that about flinching. i wrote that.
tony z
> world is on your case", not "everyone is on yr case". It's not Gomer
> Pyle singing here, guys. I will admit, though, that this is the only
> line in the song I don't care for. Other than that, it's a beautiful
> ballad.
>
> Linn
>
Jeez Linn! chop my head off why don't ya? i don't go to a Dylan
website to gather the exact lyrics, i rely on memory. i can't even
remember lyrics to my own songs, let alone Dylan songs.
anyway, the idea certainly wasn't wrong... "the whole world" means
"everyone" doesn't it?
Patricia Jungwirth
>From: Linn Carpenter <new...@home.com>
>Yeah, that makes me flinch, too, because the line is "and the whole
>world is on your case", not "everyone is on yr case". It's not Gomer
>Pyle singing here, guys. I will admit, though, that this is the only
>line in the song I don't care for. Other than that, it's a beautiful
>ballad.
>
Well, when he sang it in Newcastle, Australia, the same day as the papers
here ran the story on his "secret love child" with the headlines about
"Daddy Dylan's Secret Desiree", somehow that line seemed very appropriate.
And in 'Chimes of Freedom' he sang "and for all the sons and daughters in
the whole wide universe".
Linn Carpenter
just that I feel like a mother defending her baby when it comes to that
song. It gets bashed so much around here that I feel I must protect and
defend. :-)
And yeah, the whole world does mean everyone, but it doesn't sound as
good even though I wish he had used a whole different line altogether.
Linn
Linn Carpenter
circumstances. :-)
Linn