Do you believe in ghosts?
really real
mean, a belief that after a person dies, he or she can remain on earth
in some form and actually affect things, like talk to people or interact
with reality.
Bob Dylan doesn't seem to believe in ghosts. In Spirit on the Water, he
says quite specifically that no one has ever seen a ghost:
"You ever seen a ghost? No
But you have heard of them "
Dylan has sung about ghosts a lot, like the ghosts of Belle Starr and
Lenny Bruce, or the ghost his patron saint is fighting with, but like
the ghost of electricity, these are obviously metaphorical ghosts.
I did see a ghost once, when I was a very young child. I was in bed, and
this ghost like woodsman approached my bed. For the next five years or
so, I always slept facing the wall so I wouldn't see any more ghosts.
But now I've put aside childish things.
Please ignore this post if you are sensitive about your believes or you
don't like discussions about the nature of reality.
crazytimes
really real
>
> On the other hand, don't most Canadian men work as lumberjacks? So,
> perhaps the woodsman was simply a passerby whom your sleep-muddled mind
> perceived as a ghost.
You've got it! I was having a Canadian dream. If only there had been a
moose in my bedroom as well.
Martin
> You've got it! I was having a Canadian dream. If only there had been a
> moose in my bedroom as well
There are plenty of interesting dream sequences in Northern Exposure,
aren't there? And Ed sees a ghost, and has conversations with him in
The Brick. And I used to think it was set in Canada, but it isn't is
it? Can't say I've ever seen a ghost, but I did see Ghostbusters, and
found the ghost woman in that pretty scary. I was only 13 at the time
though. Hey - same year I first saw Bob!
Jumbo
>
> Bob Dylan doesn't seem to believe in ghosts. In Spirit on the Water, he
> says quite specifically that no one has ever seen a ghost:
>
> "You ever seen a ghost? No
> But you have heard of them "
No, that's the narrator of Spirit on the Water acknowledging that the
addressee claims never to have actually seen a ghost. I take that to
mean the person being spoken to is a bit of a linear thinker.
Bernie Woodham
"really real" <reall...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:4eITj.244945$pM4.87620@pd7urf1no...
> I did see a ghost once, when I was a very young child.
I used to live in a developing suburb northwest of Chicago. There used to
be this house with a large unkept field behind it. The place looked
abandoned. But the lights would come on at night. It was said to be
haunted. A couple of friends I had ran into one of the local greasers who
was on his way to the haunted house to meet up with some other greasers. So
my friends tagged along.
It turned out to be 4 or 5 other greasers they met up with and they were all
mainly hanging out in the field throwing rocks at the house to see if they
could get the ghosts angry. Or something, hell I wasn't there.
But, my friends got to talking about it the next day so we actually knew
someone who had a car and about 7 of us, (two catholic girls and 5 guys),
drove out to the haunted house one afternoon. We walked around the place
peeking in the windows, but then found a ladder and was able to break into
an upstairs window to get into the place.
The girls figured out it was a nunnery. We wandered through the place gaping
around as though it was some ancient religious relic. Then left. One of
the girls stole a rosary and was convinced she was going to hell for it.
There was also a long twisted road not too far from there that was supposed
to be haunted. I spent a lot of time driving down that road. I was with
damn near the same group of people when we went out investigating places on
that road.
Never found any ghosts though.
ohioln
that may look like a person or animal that's partially transparant.
really real
>>
>> "You ever seen a ghost? No
>> But you have heard of them "
>
> No, that's the narrator of Spirit on the Water acknowledging that the
> addressee claims never to have actually seen a ghost.
No, not, it's Uncle Bob, talking to us directly, just like when he told
us the times were a changing.
Jumbo
I don't agree. I think the generic conventions, or stylistic
parameters, or whatever you want to call the 'feel' of the lyrics, are
different. Granted Times feels like a "sincere" address, Spirit on the
Water contains a multitude of spirit voices which prevents us knowing
which lines, if any, are "Bob" speaking. That's why there's the sly
question about ghosts. You've heard about ghosts because "I" mentioned
the big one in the opening lines of the song. All songs are narrated
by ghosts from other songs.
really real
> You've heard about ghosts because "I" mentioned
> the big one in the opening lines of the song. All songs are narrated
> by ghosts from other songs.
It's true that one could take the song Spirit on the Water to be about
God, because he does steal those opening lines from Genesis
"Spirit on the water
Darkness on the face of the deep
I keep thinking about you baby
I can't hardly sleep"
What we would have here is a religious song hiding as a secular song.
God is Dylan's "baby." He thinks about God all the time and can't hardly
sleep.
Why not? Dylan sings that he is "Praying to the powers above."
Dylan hears His name "Ringing up and down the line." Without god, life
doesn't mean a thing. God makes Dylan "a thousand times happier than I
could ever say." Dylan could live forever, perfectly with God. He wants
to be with God in paradise.
It all fits rather perfectly. The song is about Dylan's return to god
"I'd forgotten about you
Then you turned up again"
And Dylan naturally loves god with his whole heart, just the way he
loves women
"I'm wild about you, gal
You ought to be a fool about me"
In this context, the ghost lines fit perfectly. Only God is real, not
those demonic ghosts. We never see the ghosts, but we hear God's sweet
voice and God's pretty face which begs for love.
You can see that this is no metaphoric God that Dylan is singing about.
It's the Man in the Sky, and also, miraculously, the Son of God, who is:
"High on the hill
You can carry all my thoughts with you"
After all, the bearded Man in the Sky never really looks much like a
face that begs for love, but those erotic images of Christ on the Cross,
with his almost naked, gorgeous body, is perhaps the greatest
sado-erotic image of all time. No wonder Dylan is singing about God's sugar.
The way Dylan combines his erotic feelings for God and Jesus give
another interpretation of the ghost verse. It's about the Holy Ghost. No
one ever sees the holy ghost, but don't forget, as Jesus told us, anyone
who forsaketh the holy ghost is going to suffer that eternal punishment
that is the unthinkably cruel fate that awaits almost the entire
population of the planet.
The only trouble with this interpretation is that Dylan says he can't go
back to paradise anymore, and the song ends with him wanting to have a
whopping good time. Perhaps Dylan is just hedging his bets. After all,
it's that other guy from Minnesota who wrote all those erotic god songs.
SPIRIT ON THE WATER
Spirit on the water
Darkness on the face of the deep
I keep thinking about you baby
I can't hardly sleep
I'm traveling by land
Traveling through the dawn of day
You're always on my mind
I can't stay away
I'd forgotten about you
Then you turned up again
I always knew
We were meant to be more than friends
When you're near
It's just as plain as it can be
I'm wild about you, gal
You ought to be a fool about me
Can't explain
The sources of this hidden pain
You burned your way into my heart
You got the key to my brain
I've been trampling through mud
Praying to the powers above
I'm sweating blood
You got a face that begs for love
Life without you
Doesn't mean a thing to me
If I can't have you
I'll throw my love into the deep blue sea
Sometimes I wonder
Why you can't treat me right
You do good all day
And then you do wrong all night
When you're with me
I'm a thousand times happier than I could ever say
What does it matter
What price I pay
They brag about your sugar
Brag about it all over town
Put some sugar in my bowl
I feel like laying down
I'm as pale as a ghost
Holding a blossom on a stem
You ever seen a ghost? No
But you have heard of them
I see you there
I'm blinded by the colors I see
I take good care
Of what belongs to me
I hear your name
Ringing up and down the line
I'm saying it plain
These ties are strong enough to bind
Now your sweet voice
Calls out from some old familiar shrine
I got no choice
Can't believe these things would ever fade from your mind
I could live forever
With you perfectly
You don't ever
Have to make a fuss over me
From East to West
Ever since the world began
I only mean it for the best
I want to be with you any way I can
I been in a brawl
Now I'm feeling the wall
I'm going away baby
I won't be back 'til fall
High on the hill
You can carry all my thoughts with you
You've numbed my will
This love could tear me in two
I wanna be with you in paradise
And it seems so unfair
I can't go to paradise no more
I killed a man back there
You think I'm over the hill
You think I'm past my prime
Let me see what you got
We can have a whoppin' good time
Babs
> Let's get literal for a moment. Does anyone here believe in ghosts.
I believe in the ghost of 'lectricity.
Jumbo
>
> "Spirit on the water
> Darkness on the face of the deep
> I keep thinking about you baby
> I can't hardly sleep"
>
> What we would have here is a religious song hiding as a secular song.
> God is Dylan's "baby." He thinks about God all the time and can't hardly
> sleep.
That's how I hear it.
>
> Why not?
Indeed, it's a major part of lyrical poetry tradition to write
"secular"-seeming poetry secretly addressed to the deity, because one
is in (metaphorical) exile; i.e. unable to sing directly without
alienating people who might otherwise find their hearts opened by the
hidden message.
> Dylan sings that he is "Praying to the powers above."
> Dylan hears His name "Ringing up and down the line." Without god, life
> doesn't mean a thing. God makes Dylan "a thousand times happier than I
> could ever say." Dylan could live forever, perfectly with God. He wants
> to be with God in paradise.
>
> It all fits rather perfectly. The song is about Dylan's return to god
Yes. Or that narrator's, at least. I think this is sung by a specific
type of character. A bit of a gunman in his day.
> "I'd forgotten about you
> Then you turned up again"
>
> And Dylan naturally loves god with his whole heart, just the way he
> loves women
>
> "I'm wild about you, gal
> You ought to be a fool about me"
Yes, this comes from the gnostic tradition that God and Man are mutual
lovers, equally attracted to each other.
> In this context, the ghost lines fit perfectly. Only God is real, not
> those demonic ghosts. We never see the ghosts, but we hear God's sweet
> voice and God's pretty face which begs for love.
No, I think the ghosts are "real", too, in the allegorical universe of
the song.
> You can see that this is no metaphoric God that Dylan is singing about.
> It's the Man in the Sky, and also, miraculously, the Son of God, who is:
>
> "High on the hill
> You can carry all my thoughts with you"
I agree, except I don't see what difference it makes whether God is
metaphoric or not. That's a category error in this context.
> After all, the bearded Man in the Sky never really looks much like a
> face that begs for love, but those erotic images of Christ on the Cross,
> with his almost naked, gorgeous body, is perhaps the greatest
> sado-erotic image of all time. No wonder Dylan is singing about God's sugar.
Yes. Good stuff, rr.
> The way Dylan combines his erotic feelings for God and Jesus give
> another interpretation of the ghost verse. It's about the Holy Ghost. No
> one ever sees the holy ghost, but don't forget, as Jesus told us, anyone
> who forsaketh the holy ghost is going to suffer that eternal punishment
> that is the unthinkably cruel fate that awaits almost the entire
> population of the planet.
>
> The only trouble with this interpretation is that Dylan says he can't go
> back to paradise anymore,
The only man who killed a man in Paradise was Adam because his actions
led to his own death, as part of the penalty of Adam. The narrator,
therefore, is Adam (i.e. everyman) who killed himself in Paradise and
is now an exile from Eden, unable to go back there.
> and the song ends with him wanting to have a
> whopping good time. Perhaps Dylan is just hedging his bets. After all,
> it's that other guy from Minnesota who wrote all those erotic god songs.
time
Why wouldn't life lived with in communion with a loving God be
whopping good?
really real
> Why wouldn't life lived with in communion with a loving God be
> whopping good?
>
'Cause all the whores are down in hell
Damn their eyes, damn their eyes
Jumbo
Hell's just a metaphor really.
really real
>
> Hell's just a metaphor really.
It may even be like a myth
M. Rick
good?
I'm not sure Dylan's God is all that loving.
Dave B
<reall...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >
> > Hell's just a metaphor really.
>
> It may even be like a myth
Nah, I think it's a metaphor - isn't hell meant to be an afterlife without
God? Or is that purgatory? Either way, a lot of us are there and thriving
on it.
And ghosts are a metaphor for memories of the dead. I suspect the godly
and the aetheists can agree on that.
D
Jumbo
The one in Spirit on the Water is, though.
M. Rick
Not if God is Dylan's "baby":
Sometimes I wonder
Why you can't treat me right
You do good all day
Then you do wrong all night
Not exactly a "loving God." In any case, I don't buy the idea that God is
Dylan's "baby". "Face that begs for love" -- too crass of a sentiment when
applied to God. "Wild about you gal" -- woman. This is more like Adam
yearning for Eve in paradise, though you don't need any Bible references to
get the spirit of the song.
M. Rick
J Buck
I get the first 2. Is Captain Gregg Mrs. Muir's friend?
really real
>
> Nah, I think it's a metaphor - isn't hell meant to be an afterlife without
> God? Or is that purgatory? Either way, a lot of us are there and thriving
> on it.
>
> And ghosts are a metaphor for memories of the dead. I suspect the godly
> and the aetheists can agree on that.
If Hell is a metaphor, then is heaven a metaphor? Is afterlife a metaphor?
What was it about Shakespeare and those ghosts? I can understand
Banquo's ghost being a guilt-ridden visual hallucination, but Hamlet's
father's ghost seemed to be a literal character, telling Hamlet who
killed him.
M. Rick
That's him. "Jealousy is a disease of flesh."
Jumbo
Shakespeare was raised a Catholic and Catholics believed in Purgatory.
Souls suffering in Purgatory might return as ghosts,
Jumbo
> >The one in Spirit on the Water is, though.
>
> Not if God is Dylan's "baby":
>
> Sometimes I wonder
> Why you can't treat me right
> You do good all day
> Then you do wrong all night
>
> Not exactly a "loving God."
That shows a lack of understanding on your part of how God's love is
held to work in some quarters.
> In any case, I don't buy the idea that God is
> Dylan's "baby".
Free offer.
> "Face that begs for love" -- too crass of a sentiment when
> applied to God.
That's why it's vivid. In the tradition of secular-seeming devotional
poetry imagery that would be considered inappropriate in explicitly
devotional verse is often used.
> "Wild about you gal" -- woman.
Soul/God = Male/female of love lyric.
> This is more like Adam
> yearning for Eve in paradise,
Quite likely.
> though you don't need any Bible references to
> get the spirit of the song.
Exactly.
Bernie Woodham
"Jumbo" <ch...@cupolagallery.com> wrote in message
news:a82fdec0-43a5-4bde...@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
What about Jesus. He arose after was put to death. Would that be considered
a ghost?
really real
>
> What about Jesus. He arose after was put to death. Would that be considered
> a ghost?
>
>
Wasn't Jesus's revival more like Joe Hill's? Joe Hill never died either,
according to his followers.
Bernie Woodham
Ate his ashes too. No wine though.
M. Rick
to work in some quarters.
I understand that point of view quite well, and I don't believe Dylan shares
it. "Whopping good time" is a party, and most likely a party east of Eden.
It's hard to form a single idea out of the various spirits, even if that
idea is broadly and vaguely defined as "God." The dreamlike or trancelike
quality of the song doesn't lend itself to a rational approach.
I'm pale as a ghost
Holding a blossom on a stem
City Lights
really real
> It's hard to form a single idea out of the various spirits, even if that
> idea is broadly and vaguely defined as "God." The dreamlike or trancelike
> quality of the song doesn't lend itself to a rational approach.
>
Good point. Dylan's just throwing out verses, letting his subconscious
guide him. I think he relishes the fact it makes no rational sense.
Jumbo
> >That shows a lack of understanding on your part of how God's love is held
>
> to work in some quarters.
>
> I understand that point of view quite well, and I don't believe Dylan shares
> it.
I don't understand why you understand it now but didn't understand it
before. Sorry to be pedantic but you said the lines about doing wrong
all night didn't sound like "a" loving God, not Dylan's loving God.
So, if you now accept a loving God could appear to "do wrong", why
can't the song's narrator have the same idea? As for whether Dylan
sees God in this kind of way... It seems reckless to speculate. These
aren't straight up autobio songs, like, say, the Saved material.
> "Whopping good time" is a party, and most likely a party east of Eden.
But there was a similar party in Summer Days. Dionysian jumping up on
the altar-table, proposing toasts to decay or the king.
> It's hard to form a single idea out of the various spirits, even if that
> idea is broadly and vaguely defined as "God." The dreamlike or trancelike
> quality of the song doesn't lend itself to a rational approach.
Well, yes, I agree with you here - but that doesn't mean we can't try
and pull down signals that it throws out.
M. Rick
didn't sound like "a" loving God, not Dylan's loving God.
So, if you now accept a loving God could appear to "do wrong", why can't the
song's narrator have the same idea?
Where do you get the idea that the narrator feels that God is loving for
doing wrong all night?
>As for whether Dylan sees God in this kind of way... It seems reckless to
speculate. These aren't straight up autobio songs, like, say, the Saved
material.
I'm speaking of "God" as found in his songs, if I could make such a
generalization.
>But there was a similar party in Summer Days. Dionysian jumping up on the
altar-table, proposing toasts to decay or the king.
A party that ends with his promise to torch the joint. A loving God might
welcome Dylan (narrator) into the paradise he yearns for, but in this song
(Spirit), Dylan can't make it back. There's a lightness of mood that
doesn't come across as well by reading the lyric.
Jumbo
> >Sorry to be pedantic but you said the lines about doing wrong all night
>
> didn't sound like "a" loving God, not Dylan's loving God.
> So, if you now accept a loving God could appear to "do wrong", why can't the
> song's narrator have the same idea?
>
> Where do you get the idea that the narrator feels that God is loving for
> doing wrong all night?
Good question. It's just because so many of the other ideas in the
song fit the idea of them being addressed to God so well that it
suggests this one must fit, too.
The counter-argument would be: Why stretch like that when all the
lines fit the idea of being addressed to some human object of desire?
Answer: well, they don't. The opening lines address the divinely-
ordered spirit from Genesis. So something odd is going on.
really real
>
> The counter-argument would be: Why stretch like that when all the
> lines fit the idea of being addressed to some human object of desire?
>
> Answer: well, they don't. The opening lines address the divinely-
> ordered spirit from Genesis. So something odd is going on.
Just because Dylan's narrator appropriated two lines from Genesis to
start the song doesn't mean anything odd or spiritual is going on.
There's always more spirit going on top of the water that in that deep
darkness below. It's a nice metaphor that has nothing to do with the Man
in the Sky creating the earth in seven days.
The devil can recite scripture and so can songwriters. Even I quote the
bible sometimes. Like Shakespeare, a lot of quotes from those old books
have become part of our culture and have lost their original holy rollery.
geminij...@yahoo.com
> Let's get literal for a moment. Does anyone here believe in ghosts. I
> in some form and actually affect things, like talk to people or interact
> with reality.
No. It's far more likely there are aliens among us.
-GJ
geminij...@yahoo.com
> > Hell's just a metaphor really.
>
> It may even be like a myth
It may even be like Jersey.
-GJ
Jumbo
I don't buy it.
really real
>>
>> The devil can recite scripture and so can songwriters. Even I quote the
>> bible sometimes. Like Shakespeare, a lot of quotes from those old books
>> have become part of our culture and have lost their original holy rollery.
>
> I don't buy it.
Of course you don't buy it. Your Bob Dylan is a spiritual man.
But my Bob Dylan is a mean spirited atheist. So I don't buy your view
either.
really real
>> Let's get literal for a moment. Does anyone here believe in ghosts. I
>> mean, a belief that after a person dies, he or she can remain on earth
>> in some form and actually affect things, like talk to people or interact
>> with reality.
>
> No. It's far more likely there are aliens among us.
I agree. It is far more likely that aliens are here rather than ghosts.
But what do you think the chances are, that aliens are among us? One in
a million?
Jumbo
OK. But my view is supportable by factual evidence, whereas your view
is demonstrably false. And yet you are the one committed to being
really real.
Heike C. Strand
analysis that will always exist in the world of Bob!
Hmmmm, "Ghosts" is such a word, really...it is more representative of
the "spooky" emphasis society has placed on the spirit after death. I
do not have to decide whether to believe that spirit exists after
death, as I have experienced absolute communication with passed loved
ones many, many times over my life. I surely do not call them
ghosts!
However, the word, used lyrically has a certain presence...and can
mean many things. "The ghost of her smile..." Something lingering
on...even a memory. The "ghost of electricity" is to me one of those
passionate phrases that flew from Bob's mind...that just placed the
perfect spin on the lyric...that writer's moment of fullfilling
language. :-)
As far as "Spirit on the Water"...love the song, do not claim to know
who it is for, or what it is about, but love to listen to it cranked
up while cleaning my house! I do not believe that it tells us Bob's
view on "ghosts" or anything else for certain, except that he can turn
an amazing phrase and continue to spark our minds and add some fun and
good energy to our lives!
All the best!
xoxo
Heike
On May 5, 11:20 am, really real <reallyr...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Let's get literal for a moment. Does anyone here believe in ghosts. I
> mean, a belief that after a person dies, he or she can remain on earth
> in some form and actually affect things, like talk to people or interact
> with reality.
>
> Bob Dylan doesn't seem to believe in ghosts. In Spirit on the Water, he
> says quite specifically that no one has ever seen a ghost:
>
> "You ever seen a ghost? No
> But you have heard of them "
>
> Dylan has sung about ghosts a lot, like the ghosts of Belle Starr and
> Lenny Bruce, or the ghost his patron saint is fighting with, but like
> the ghost of electricity, these are obviously metaphorical ghosts.
>
> I did see a ghost once, when I was a very young child. I was in bed, and
> this ghost like woodsman approached my bed. For the next five years or
> so, I always slept facing the wall so I wouldn't see any more ghosts.
> But now I've put aside childish things.
>
> Please ignore this post if you are sensitive about your believes or you
> don't like discussions about the nature of reality.
M. Rick
as I have experienced absolute communication with passed loved ones many,
many times over my life.
Next time you see your dead uncle Hymie, tell him to send me the five
dollars he owes me. This will allow him to rest in peace.
M. Rick
the idea of them being addressed to God so well that it
suggests this one must fit, too.
Even if the "spirit on the water" is the Genesis God, I don't see where the
narrator sees God as especially loving.
>Answer: well, they don't. The opening lines address the divinely- ordered
spirit from Genesis. So something odd is going on.
Not odd if you're willing to close your Bible for a few minutes and float
along with the song. The dominant theme is the longing to be with his lover
in paradise again. The first two lines set the scene, by the third line
he's talking to his lover. At the end he's given up on paradise and looking
for a good time, but there's no sense of final judgment or fate. It's just
a series of yearnings and meanderings. To be continued . . . or start all
over.
And mileys to go before I sleep.
Jumbo
> Wow...how much fun to read the ol' bantering of ideas and futile
> analysis that will always exist in the world of Bob!
Hey, who you calling futile?
Despite that cruel word, I'm glad to have at least contributed to
something positive on rmd, i.e. it being described as "fun".
And really, yes, it is futile, but, speaking for myself, I've often
had my mind changed by things said on here.
Jumbo
>
> Even if the "spirit on the water" is the Genesis God, I don't see where the
> narrator sees God as especially loving.
Well, cos it starts with the Genesis God, in a direct quotation, then
goes into a long string of love lyrics. Kind of short Old Testament
attached to very very long New. Revesal of arrangement in t'Bible.
> . The opening lines address the divinely- ordered
> spirit from Genesis. So something odd is going on.
>
> Not odd if you're willing to close your Bible for a few minutes and float
> along with the song.
Why does noticing that the opening lines quote Genesis suggest I'm a
dogma-bound Bible-basher who refuses to just float along? I said
earlier that I agree with your more relaxed way of enjoying the song's
imagery. It seems to me that some people feel unnecessarily threatened
by certain interpretative suggestions.
> The dominant theme is the longing to be with his lover
> in paradise again. The first two lines set the scene, by the third line
> he's talking to his lover. At the end he's given up on paradise and looking
> for a good time, but there's no sense of final judgment or fate. It's just
> a series of yearnings and meanderings. To be continued . . . or start all
> over.
Yes, and all of that's consistent with reading the loved one as God.
That's why it's clever. (Not me, the technique.)
really real
>
> OK. But my view is supportable by factual evidence, whereas your view
> is demonstrably false. And yet you are the one committed to being
> really real.
All facts are personal, Jumbo. Use your common sense.
Jumbo
Some facts are more personal than others. Some girls mothers etc (With
apologies to Babs...)
really real
> Wow...how much fun to read the ol' bantering of ideas and futile
> analysis that will always exist in the world of Bob!
Thanks for that feedback, Heike. I really appreciate comments like this
because I take a lot of criticism for bringing up topics like ghosts in rmd.
geminij...@yahoo.com
At least. I believe the Drake Equation gives an accurate
representation of the odds.
-GJ
M. Rick
Even if I heard it that way, there isn't much to suggest that his God
especially loving. The fact that you love someone doesn't mean they love
you. "You ought to be a fool about me."
Jumbo
According to Gnostic and other mystical philosophies, for love to
occur between any subject and object they must share something in
common.
From this it may be said to follow that if Human loves God it
therefore partakes to some extent of the divine and that therefore
God, since it partakes of the human, ought to be foolish enough (i.e.
contain the capacity to change, i.e. fall from a position of total
unity) to love Human.
M. Rick
between any subject and object they must share something in common.
Good for God, bad for Britney. Doesn't work when the object has a reality
independent of the subject.
>From this it may be said to follow that if Human loves God it therefore
partakes to some extent of the divine and that therefore
God, since it partakes of the human, ought to be foolish enough (i.e.
contain the capacity to change, i.e. fall from a position of total
unity) to love Human.
Even if I read his lover(s) as God, I don't get a sense of reciprocity.
This is pretty much of a one-way street. And I'm not sure why the narrator
is more "gnostic" than typically Christian or Jewish. He's more like a
ghost wandering through a dream. The "ghostic" philosophy.
Jumbo
> >According to Gnostic and other mystical philosophies, for love to occur
>
> between any subject and object they must share something in common.
>
> Good for God, bad for Britney. Doesn't work when the object has a reality
> independent of the subject.
That shows a poor understanding of the word "love" in this context.
>
> >From this it may be said to follow that if Human loves God it therefore
>
> partakes to some extent of the divine and that therefore
> God, since it partakes of the human, ought to be foolish enough (i.e.
> contain the capacity to change, i.e. fall from a position of total
> unity) to love Human.
>
> Even if I read his lover(s) as God, I don't get a sense of reciprocity.
> This is pretty much of a one-way street.
The spirit on the water was sent one way, the lyric is returned the
other.
> And I'm not sure why the narrator
> is more "gnostic" than typically Christian or Jewish. He's more like a
> ghost wandering through a dream. The "ghostic" philosophy.
Orphic gnosticism runs all through the lyrics of Bob's career.