LARS/La Bamba -- question about timing/source of the claim
Dylanetics
contention that the refrain or some other part of the melody/chords for
LARS derive from La Bamba by Ritchie Valens.
Usually people state or imply that Bob himself drew the connnection.
On the other hand, the recent Greil Marcus book (2005) says Phil
Spector referred to the connection in a lecture he gave at U. Cal.
Berkeley in 1967 and in an interview in1969 -- and Marcus doesn't say
whether Spector got the idea from Bob.
Does anybody know the source for the story that *Bob* was the first to
draw the connection (regardless of whether he was serious or not)? In
some interview? Prior to 1967?
Mr Jinx
the two songs?
OK, they may share a few chords but then a villiage idiot might share a
blood goup with Einstein.
Mr Jinx.
Derek Homsberg
> the two songs?
Exactly. When we're dealing with a genre where most songs are based on the
I, IV, and V chords, as La Bamba is, it's not too difficult to find
similarities between two songs. The only interesting question here is
whether Bob actually acknowledged that LARS was patterned on La Bamba, or
even noticed the connection, or whether Spector did. But the musical
connection itself has no particular significance. There are dozens of songs
that we could musically connect to LARS.
Robin
RS
Mr Jinx
basic assumption that songs are somehow equivalent, like pieces in a
jigsaw: all of equal weight and value. (This bit joins with that, this
with that and so on).
If we connect enough pieces, the thinking goes, we then understand
perfectly where everything fits via chronology or a series of links in
some notional chain.
When you throw a genius like Dylan into the equasion, however, the
whole game changes: the chain and chronology are broken.
At first glance Like A Rolling Stone may appear to be a Rock/Pop/Folk
song much like any other, but is it really?
The epoque-defining nature of its message. Its cultural significance.
Its seismic effect upon the generation on whom it was unleashed: all
of these things and many more take it well beyond sensible comparison
with the essentially ephemeral music of its contemporaries.
Until Greil Marcus writes a book on La Bamba, don't hold your breath,
folks, all links to other songs of the era are tenuous at best for
Like A Rolling Stone.
Sure, it may be of mild interest if Dylan himself has mentioned other
songs in connection with this song but in the final analysis it is a
stand-alone piece, unlike anything. It casts a shadow into the past
and the future. Any similarities with what went before are rendered
irrelevant by its gravity. It came from the past like a diamond came
from coal. It's Like A Rolling Stone!
Mr Jinx
John
John
"Dylanetics" <dylan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1115721394.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Robin
I wonder if songs like "Wild Thing" and "Hang on Sloopy" were inspired
by La Bamba, LARS or T&S.
RS
monic...@yahoo.com
In the line notes to Biograph, Dylan says that one of the starting
points for LARS was the signature riff from "La Bamba." It's hardly a
deep secret, any more than the relationship between Monk and Sherlock
Holmes, or Yojimbo and Filstul of Dollars, or Throne of Blood and
MacBeth. Figuring out who was the first to be quoted in print about
the connection is just an exercise in obtaining useless and pointless
knowledge. Besides, Ritchie Valens didn't really write the melody for
"La Bamba"; it's essentially a traditional song.
Dylan played it, on his guitar (or maybe piano), in a Columbia studio
in Manhattan, June 15-16, 1965. The enterprise you're trying to engage
in is like focusing a murder mystery on figuring out who found the body
rather than who did the killing.
Robin
you want to throw at us?
RS
Derek Homsberg
> were inspired
> by La Bamba (59) , LARS (65) or T&S (62).
Not to mention, Louie Louie (63) and All Day and All of the Night (65)
I've added the years that each of these songs charted. I doubt that any of
the other songs you mention were inspired by LARS, because most predated
LARS and as Mr. Jinx said, LARS is on a whole other level. For example,
there were plenty of these "basic" rock songs to around to provide
inspiration for Wild Thing. LARS has a whole different sound and feel from
these other songs.
Derek Homsberg
> in Manhattan, June 15-16, 1965. The enterprise you're trying to engage
> in is like focusing a murder mystery on figuring out who found the body
> rather than who did the killing.
Or whether the clothing of one victim was inspired by or copied from the
clothing of another victim of a different murder.
Dylanetics
I'll defer to the more musical folks, but it's my impression from
reading RMD that it would be extremely difficult to identify the
connection to La Bamba just by listening to LARS -- too many other
songs have the same chord structure. If someone tells you about La
Bamba, then you can nod and say, yeah, I see it, of course. But
somebody has to tell you.
I gather from Bill's post he's saying that Bob is known to have played
La Bomba in the studio when he was recording LARS, which would
certainly count as evidence that he was drawing on it. I wasn't aware
of that, so thanks to Bill for filling me in. It's not on the tapes,
I assume, because Greil Marcus doesn't mention it (and he's heard the
tapes).
Still, my question wasn't (and isn't) about the influence of La Bamba
on LARS.
I'm curious about the connections between LARS, which some regard as
the greatest rock song ever, and Phil Spector, whom a lot people regard
as the greatest rock producer ever. As well as someone Bob was
apparently mentioning as a possible producer at the same time he
recorded LARS. (Thank God that didn't happen, by the way.)
Question: How did Spector identify the influence of La Bamba in his
lecture in 1967? Did he know what Bob was playing in the Columbia
studio in 1965? Had word gotten out? Had Bob said anything about it
(which was my posted question)? Did Bob talk to Phil about it?
In Chronicles, page 93, Bob brings up La Bamba. He tells us that he
used to sing Valens' In a Turkish Town, which suited him better than La
Bamba, "the song of Ritchie's that everybody else sang and I never knew
why."
Maybe Bob will wise up about La Bamba in Volume Two, and explain why he
thought it was right for LARS, his most famous and successful song.
Or maybe Bob is pulling our legs about La Bamba in Chronicles -- it
wouldn't be the only time. Of course, if Bob would do that in his
seeming autobiography, maybe his earlier statements about La Bamba and
LARS -- after Spector weighed in -- aren't completely reliable either.
Derek Homsberg
> reading RMD that it would be extremely difficult to identify the
> connection to La Bamba just by listening to LARS -- too many other
> songs have the same chord structure. If someone tells you about La
> Bamba, then you can nod and say, yeah, I see it, of course. But
> somebody has to tell you.
I don't think anyone has to tell you. The similarity in chord structure of
La Bamba to the refrain of LARS is there. It probably doesn't jump out at
most people, but it's certainly there. You're correct that many other songs
have the same structure - so someone could just as easily say "that part of
LARS sounds like the chords from Twist and Shout." It never occured to me
to compare the chords of LARS to anything else. I think of the song as
totally unique because the part that leads up to the "la bamba" part is
unique and powerful. By the time you get to the refrain, you feel you're
hearing something different and new, so there's no need to look for
similarities to other songs. But someone could easily notice it, make the
connection, and point it out - particularly someone who wanted to attack
Dylan as being derivative and not very original.
Dylanetics
Well, Spector felt sure enough about *which* of the many possible songs
it was to say it was La Bamba in a public lecture in 1967, where he was
dumping on LARS. He didn't indicate any doubts about the source.
Lucky hit? Testimony to Phil's musical genius? Or reasonable to infer
somebody tipped Phil off?
Mad Dan
wrote:
Get Off Of My Cloud
That's another.
Dylanetics
I agree with you about LARS -- it completely transcends its "sources."
And however one feels about Greil Marcus, I doubt anyone would say he
picked the wrong song for a book-length study.
BakedCivilServant
La Bamba, not Twist and Shout, etc., etc.
First, Bob or another participant in 1965 Columbia sessions did a
published interview letting the cat out of the bag in time for Spector
to read it and then give his 1967 lecture -- condescending statement
that "it's always fun to rewrite the chords to La Bamba" or whatever.
Second, Spector was present when some Dylan insider talked about Bob's
source. Maybe somebody said somebody at a party. Or possibly some
more formal setting -- Spector was at a meeting with Dylan's people
where they discussed LARS, and Bob or some other insider decided to
talk frankly about how Bob composed the song and how Bob, Kooper and
the other key musicians came up with LARS's distinctive sound,
Derek Homsberg
> First, Bob or another participant in 1965 Columbia sessions did a
> published interview letting the cat out of the bag in time for Spector
> to read it and then give his 1967 lecture -- condescending statement
> that "it's always fun to rewrite the chords to La Bamba" or whatever.
>
> Second, Spector was present when some Dylan insider talked about Bob's
> source. Maybe somebody said somebody at a party. Or possibly some
> more formal setting -- Spector was at a meeting with Dylan's people
> where they discussed LARS, and Bob or some other insider decided to
> talk frankly about how Bob composed the song and how Bob, Kooper and
> the other key musicians came up with LARS's distinctive sound,
Maybe Spector waived a gun in the face of every music industry person he
met, demanding to know Dylan's source.
Robin
RS
monic...@yahoo.com
Dylanetics', not yours. As should have been clear from the fact that I
quoted it in my post.
monic...@yahoo.com
Gray Flannel Dwarf
contention that the refrain or some other part of the melody/chords for
LARS derive from La Bamba by Ritchie Valens.>>
Has anybody noticed a similar parallel between the guitar riff in "It's
Alright, Ma" and the Everly Brothers song "Wake Up Little Susie"?
John Wesley Cowart
Ruud
similar. Well, who would disagree with Dylan himself, but play on your
guitar that I - IV - V - IV - I riff. You can sing (important parts of) La
Bamba, Twist and Shout, Hang on Sloopy, Sweets for my Sweet, Wild Thing,
Louie Louie, Get off of my cloud, Take another little piece of my heart,
Call me angel in the morning, Can you please crawl out of your window, but
NOT Like a Rolling Stone.
Completely different feel, in fact it's I - IV - I - IV - V
BTW, I tried improvising the lyrics of LARS on I - IV - V - IV - I, and I
think this could make a cool song. Has Dylan ever performed it this way?
Ruud
Dylanetics
SilkUpholsteredChair wrote:
> > Dylanetics wrote:
>
> >
> > Well, Spector felt sure enough about *which* of the many possible
> songs
> > it was to say it was La Bamba in a public lecture in 1967, where he
> was
> > dumping on LARS. He didn't indicate any doubts about the source.
> >
> > Lucky hit? Testimony to Phil's musical genius? Or reasonable to
> infer
> > somebody tipped Phil off?
>
> genius for Spector to say, "Aw man, he's just copping La Bamba in the
> refrain." Nobody would've said, "Huh? La Bamba? Where?" The words
> "Bam--" and "Feel" hit on the same first beat coming back into the
> tonic off the 5 chord. Of course, Valens stanza and refrain were
> identical musically, unlike Rolling Stone. (This is where Dylan
really
> went above and beyond, having the very unusual--people will now come
up
> with dozens of other examples, but anyway--the very unusual rhyming
of
> the last dragged out word of the stanza with the first word of the
> refrain. First rate! The band gets that build up at the end of the
> stanza and a huge release coming into the refrain, more like people
do
> releasing off a bridge. They get to crash down not only the first
beat
> of the refrain but on a rhyme as well. Sweet. And very exciting,
very
> alive. I don't doubt for a second that he and his buddy Bobby played
> the acetate over and over and over again all night after they had a
> mix, giggling with joy and disbelief over what they'd wrought.)
>
> GoodGawdAwmighty, was I off: La Bamba came before the Isley's Twist
> and Shout--by about 4 years. Sorry. I have a cold.
Thanks for a musicologically informed perspective on La Bamba, and also
for your additional point about what gives LARS its dynamism.
But just to check that I have it straight... Are you saying not only
(A) that we can clearly see how La
Bamba influenced LARS as we know it, but also (B) that Phil Spector
(and even lesser mortals) would have pointed specifically to La Bamba
(and NOT to some other song) if they had been asked to identify the key
musical source for LARS?
Putting it another way, is La Bamba the *unique* solution to X = older
pop songs that might have provided Bob with the musical substrate for
LARS?
I'm not questioning that Bob did, as a matter of historical fact, take
La Bamba as his substrate. Just whether he might (in priniciple) have
begun with Twist and Shout or one of the other songs people have
mentioned (assuming that it would have been subjected to roughly the
same amount of musical transformation as was necessary with La Bamba).
Dylanetics
guess the question:
Answer: "9W"
Question: "Herr Wagner, do you spell your name with a 'v'?"
In our case, I'm imagining Bob says "16" and then Phil Spector calls
out "What is 8 + 8?"
I'll grant that we know that's Bob was thinking (he told us in an
interview and later in some liner notes). But how did Phil know it?
Bob might have been thinking "What is 8 times 2?" or 'What is 20 minus
4?"
Is that what it's like with LARS relative to La Bamba, Twist and Shout,
and the others?
Mr Jinx
Are we really seriously concerned with whether or not Like a Rolling
Stone shares a few chords with La Bamba???? Is this really the burning
issue of our times?
Get a fucking grip, people! Talk about missing the point! We are
talking about a jiggy little pop song versus the full raging majesty of
Dylan's art. Any comparison is folly - as you must be aware if you
give it a minute's thought.
George Bush uses the word 'The'. So did Shakespeare. Does this mean
they are worthy of comparison.
Duh !!!!
Mr Jinx
Derek Homsberg
> they are worthy of comparison.
How dare you compare La Bamba and Twist and Shout to George Bush!
Mr Jinx
My mistake.
Jinx :)
J Buck
<Are we really seriously concerned with whether or not Like a Rolling
Stone shares a few chords with La Bamba???? Is this really the burning
issue of our times? Get a fucking grip, people! Talk about missing the
point! We are talking about a jiggy little pop song versus the full
raging majesty of Dylan's art. Any comparison is folly - as you must be
aware if you give it a minute's thought>
I had the same vision but you've captured it better than I could've. Or
maybe I was just lazy or too tired the last few nights to make the
effort. Either way, the minutiae that finds it's way to rmd truly
astounds at times.
Dylanetics
grasp!!
Your sloppiness point is well taken. It should have been: "Do you
spell your name with a 'v', Herr Wagner?" Meter, euphony and -- not
least -- timing!
Dylanetics
I was trying to respond to SilkUpholsteredChair's post.
"Timing" -- also one of the great punchlines.