New SEMIOGRAPHY of CONTEMPORARY MUSIC book

[kati...@gmail.com]

Finally a book about this topic. More than 640 symbols and signs all explained in 4 languages....GREAT!

Author: Paolo Tortiglione
Publication date: 2012
ISBN: 8876656162 ISBN 13: 9788876656163
TITLE: Semiography and semiology of contemporary music.
Online store:
http://www.deastore.com/search/products/2051841/keywords/9788876656163

free shipment

Hope this help

[Peter T. Daniels]

Unfortunately there is no "Look Inside!" feature at that site, and the
book is not listed by amazon. All there is to go by is the handful of
reader comments, from which it appears that the book does not deal
with either semiography or semiology of music (those would refer to
interpretation of music -- not performance practice, but what it
_means_).

Rather, it appears to be a guide to contemporary music _notation_. In
view of the poor rendition of the English title of the book, it's
quite possible that the English translations of the terminology inside
the book are not accurate but simply move Italian phrases into English
orthography as if they were English words.

(Linguists call these "faux amis" or "false friends" -- an important
example is that the German adjective "konsequent" does NOT mean
"consequent" in English, but rather "consistent.")

[kati...@gmail.com]

Peter
you could be right, but I found it on AMAZON.IT. Yes, there is no look-inside but I bought the book for 19.50 Euros. I wrote also to Barnes and Nobles worldwide bookseller (www.bn.com) and they wrote me that they are inserting the book into their online catalog for all Americans and international customers.
Believe me: the book is not a simple translation but all symbols are accompained by a lot of words and musical examples taken by original score. All commented. The englihs introduction is written by the Italian Musicological Society's President, Guido Salvetti and looks like very impressive. Also there is a huge bibliography and a list of more than 150 scores and composers. There are chapters about Saxophone, Winds, Strings, Voice, Harp, Electronic Music, etc.

I would like to discuss with you whenever you have this book inside your hands. It will be a more "concrete" discussion.

Thanks for your reply
Kati


I teach Musical Semiography and Semiology and I believe it is the first complete and exhaustive book about this topic since about 25 years! I've adopted immediatly the book for my students. A lot of enthusiastic comments and feedback. It will be adopted also by many other music school in my country from next academic year.

[kati...@gmail.com]

On Monday, 23 July 2012 15:25:19 UTC+2, kati...@gmail.com wrote:

Amazon.it (but must be translated with google translate)

http://www.amazon.it/Semiography-semiology-contemporary-italiana-francese/dp/8876656162/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343061332&sr=8-1

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jul 23, 12:32 pm, katigl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 23 July 2012 15:25:19 UTC+2, kati...@gmail.com  wrote:
> > Finally a book about this topic. More than 640 symbols and signs all explained in 4 languages....GREAT!
>
> > Author: Paolo Tortiglione
> > Publication date: 2012
> > ISBN: 8876656162 ISBN 13: 9788876656163
> > TITLE: Semiography and semiology of contemporary music.
> > Online store:
> >http://www.deastore.com/search/products/2051841/keywords/9788876656163
>
> > free shipment
>
> > Hope this help
>
> Peter
> you could be right, but I found it on AMAZON.IT. Yes, there is no look-inside but I bought the book for 19.50 Euros. I wrote also to Barnes and Nobles worldwide bookseller (www.bn.com) and they wrote me that they are inserting the book into their online catalog for all Americans and international customers.
> Believe me: the book is not a simple translation but all symbols are accompained by a lot of words and musical examples taken by original score. All commented. The englihs introduction is written by the Italian Musicological Society's President, Guido Salvetti and looks like very impressive. Also there is a huge bibliography and a list of more than 150 scores and composers. There are chapters about Saxophone, Winds, Strings, Voice, Harp, Electronic Music, etc.

What we do not know is how accurate the English (or French or German)
translations in the book are.

> I would like to discuss with you whenever you have this book inside your hands. It will be a more "concrete" discussion.

I have always been interested in music notation, but at almost US$30
(plus shipping from Italy -- which could easily bring the price to
$50) this is too expensive just for curiosity.

It has not yet appeared in bn.com; they have one book mentioning Paolo
Tortiglione, a volume on "informatici italiani."

> Thanks for your reply
> Kati
>
> I teach Musical Semiography and Semiology and I believe it is the first complete and exhaustive book about this topic since about 25 years! I've adopted immediatly the book for my students. A lot of enthusiastic comments and feedback. It will be adopted also by many other music school in my country from next academic year.

Gardner Read's last book on music notation has a small section on
contemporary notation, but clearly it is not as comprehensive as this
one.

[Jonathan Ellis]

what on earth is a semiography... apart from, perhaps, quarter of a
biography :-)

-- Jonathan.

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:032b3b17-6be3-45b3...@cu1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jul 23, 4:23 pm, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30...@gmail.com> wrote:

> what on earth is a semiography... apart from, perhaps, quarter of a
> biography :-)

Half a biography, surely.

According to the *Cambridge Italian Dictionary* edited by Barbara
Reynolds (1962), a _semiografia_ is an "abbreviation; conventional
sign, shorthand (writing)" (there's no English word "semiography," but
if there were it should, etymologically, mean 'writing meanings' --
but for that, we have the word semasiography (same Greek root as
"semantic").

A _semiologia_ is a "treatise on symbols"; there's no English word for
that concept. The English word "semiology" is the name for the
philosophical study of signs or of meaning.

So the English translations in the book are suspect. Hopefully our
Finnish friend can also read the French and German versions, and maybe
putting them all together will arrive at the intention of the Italian.

> "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:032b3b17-6be3-45b3...@cu1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

[Jonathan Ellis]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:c2338f4d-f3c3-49d2...@t32g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

On Jul 23, 4:23 pm, "Jonathan Ellis" <jle30...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> what on earth is a semiography... apart from, perhaps, quarter of a
>> biography :-)

> Half a biography, surely.

not if a biography consists of two monographies :-)

[kati...@gmail.com]

I do not wantt o insist but looks like
http://www.deastore.com/search/products/2051841/keywords/9788876656163

has FREE shipment to USA, Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico and all the world if you wait the starndard 14 days shipment.

http://www.deastore.com/help/248#A.6.5

As I'm starting to use this book for my students I'd like to read your comments on it, if you decide to buy it. I bought it. No shipment cost from deastore.com

On Monday, 23 July 2012 15:25:19 UTC+2, kati...@gmail.com wrote:

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Jul 27, 10:14 am, katigl...@gmail.com wrote:
> I do not wantt o insist but looks likehttp://www.deastore.com/search/products/2051841/keywords/9788876656163

>
> has FREE shipment to USA, Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico and all the world if you wait the starndard 14 days shipment.
>
> http://www.deastore.com/help/248#A.6.5
>
> As I'm starting to use this book for my students I'd like to read your comments on it, if you decide to buy it. I bought it. No shipment cost from deastore.com

Did you see my comment the other day about how the two main words in
the title are simply not English words, but Italian words transposed
into English spelling? The book simply cannot be reliable. It is
either the author's fault, if he felt he could do it in four
languages, or the publisher's fault, for commissioning an incompetent
translation.

Again, it may be that the French or German is better than the English,
or maybe you can simply read the Italian.

[kati...@gmail.com]

Peter
sorry to say that your are totally wrong.

Just to be sure....I called yestarday the publisher and the public relations office said that the native language was English and the book was first written in english as the authore's parents family were UK in origin. Furthermore they said the other languages translators are composer and musicians with more than 20 years experience in music book translation and the translation was also submitted to other 12 language revisor before publishing.

As you haven't the book in your hands you cannot talk in this way. It is not serious.

By the way: you will not change your idea as it seems you have some preconception or early ideas about other peoples that thinks different from you.

I live in Helsinki and for sure all my collagues at Sibelius Academy of Music have appreciated the book. It is a totally reliable and it is a very serious work.

Please write your opinions, as I appreciate its, but please do not talk without having real examples to criticize.

It is not serious by a person like you are.

Bye
Kati

On Monday, 23 July 2012 15:25:19 UTC+2, kati...@gmail.com wrote:

[cls...@gmail.com]

Hi All
I read just few minutes ago all the thread. I bought the book last month.
I'm sorry: Peter the book is perfectly written in English. Why you say it isn't?

I think the book should not be considerd as a language book. It is a simple Music Semiography book. Yes, perhaps, some words could be impreved....but we are talking about FEW words over more than 300 pages....

IMHO: Kati is right!

I paid 23 euros with free sheep. It was a good price for a so great book. There is nothing similar on the book market.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:19:42 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
> Hi All
>
> I read just few minutes ago all the thread. I bought the book last month.
>
> I'm sorry: Peter the book is perfectly written in English. Why you say it isn't?
>
>
>
> I think the book should not be considerd as a language book. It is a simple Music Semiography book. Yes, perhaps, some words could be impreved....but we are talking about FEW words over more than 300 pages....

FOR THE THIRD TIME, "SEMIOGRAPHY" AND "SEMIOLOGY" (in this sense: "semiotics" is the science of meaning-systems, including language) ARE NOT ENGLISH WORDS.

THE BOOK COULD HAVE BEEN CALLED SOMETHING LIKE "CONTEMPORARY MUSIC NOTATION (and abbreviations)".

> IMHO: Kati is right!
>
>
>
> I paid 23 euros with free sheep. It was a good price for a so great book. There is nothing similar on the book market.

Then it's a shame it wasn't produced with a bit more care.

[John Wiser]

"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message

news:84222e22-4634-44c0...@googlegroups.com...

> On Saturday, July 28, 2012 8:19:42 AM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
>> Hi All
>>
>> I read just few minutes ago all the thread. I bought the book last month.
>>
>> I'm sorry: Peter the book is perfectly written in English. Why you say it
>> isn't?
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the book should not be considerd as a language book. It is a
>> simple Music Semiography book. Yes, perhaps, some words could be
>> impreved....but we are talking about FEW words over more than 300
>> pages....
>
> FOR THE THIRD TIME, "SEMIOGRAPHY" AND "SEMIOLOGY" (in this sense:
> "semiotics" is the science of meaning-systems, including language) ARE NOT
> ENGLISH WORDS.
>
> THE BOOK COULD HAVE BEEN CALLED SOMETHING LIKE "CONTEMPORARY MUSIC
> NOTATION (and abbreviations)".
>
>> IMHO: Kati is right!
>>
>>
>>
>> I paid 23 euros with free sheep. It was a good price for a so great book.
>> There is nothing similar on the book market.
>

[considerable snippage here]

The free sheep almost tips the balance.
What would one ewe in US dollars?

JDW

[cls...@gmail.com]

Yes...the first word is not in the Oxford Dictionary....BUT

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_semiology

2. http://books.google.it/books?id=2Zk_Meiva7MC&pg=PA741&lpg=PA741&dq=semiography&source=bl&ots=Szr29V7_V9&sig=Jr9uCBZTXUzQ_bJuKJLgF_y9hKw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UA8UUMSFAeLk4QSx64CYCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=semiography&f=false

3. http://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/philosophy/works/fr/barthes.htm

4. http://books.google.it/books?id=2eTamGqyQhQC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=semiography&source=bl&ots=uTuGI-tlsJ&sig=QTAomUEjnOp5FFv4d1MCOQaxQRQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UA8UUMSFAeLk4QSx64CYCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=semiography&f=false

5. http://books.google.it/books?id=D4GYHAAACAAJ&dq=semiography&source=bl&ots=7eYy_jqlEh&sig=MBWeR0GvQfVlEE4S_JmasKIBxaU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UA8UUMSFAeLk4QSx64CYCw&redir_esc=y

6. http://books.google.it/books?id=-c-dwk14mucC&pg=PA240&lpg=PA240&dq=semiography&source=bl&ots=tVpy0Z8rIg&sig=oTd36Vf9F_-RKUDO_C11ajTx5lc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UA8UUMSFAeLk4QSx64CYCw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=semiography&f=false

7. http://books.google.it/books?id=RFqlPtTSB2kC&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=semiography&source=bl&ots=Esw5mIjtep&sig=STGDif84lLFwV7JRUkLDtOkCQEY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VxAUUIbzKrDR4QSTloGgBw&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=semiography&f=false

etc. etc. etc.

[cls...@gmail.com]

Ahahh!
Sheep, Ship, Shipment, shipper, Sheepish.....

Very funny!

[Peter T. Daniels]

Does any of those links claim that an English word "semiography" means 'abbreviation' in Modern English, as it does in Modern Italian?

No, not one of them does. All but no. 4 (which is a translation by a Russian of a German original and uses it as a synonym for "notation"; possibly "neumes" would have been the correct word there) and no. 7, which is nothing but a list of English words from the root semeio-, use the words exactly as I said they would be used if they existed -- to mean 'study of signs', which in the US is known as semiotics and in Europe as semiology.

So unless the book is a book about the "meaning of music," like Leonard B. Meyer's well-known *Emotion and Meaning in Music*, or Deryck Cooke's searches for meanings in the motifs used by Schumann in his songs, which according to the descriptions at the seller's site it is not, then the book's use of English is not reliable.

[kati...@gmail.com]

Could be right but despite the thread it remains a really GREAT book

Thanks

On Monday, 23 July 2012 15:25:19 UTC+2, kati...@gmail.com wrote: