Original/Old Scores
hornd...@gmail.com
I've been looking for a copy of the old Simrock scores to Brahms
symphonies. I haven't found a place to buy them or check them out from
a library. Anybody know where to find these? www.imslp.org has a copy
of the symphonies edited by Hans Gal and published in 1926 (dover
score). It seems to be in the public domain according to German
copyright law, but I'd like to find the original to be sure it's out of
copyright version. Thanks for the help!
-----Horndude77
PS I'm also looking for original/old scores to Beethoven Horn Sonata
Op. 17 and the Mozart horn concerti if you have any clues to where to
find these either.
Peter T. Daniels
They all died more than 70 years ago. There are no copyright issues --
that's why Dover (and anyone else) can reprint them.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <446CFE...@worldnet.att.net>,
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > hornd...@gmail.com wrote:
> > >
> > > I've been looking for a copy of the old Simrock scores to Brahms [...]
>
> > that's why Dover (and anyone else) can reprint them.
>
Why should they, when the Gesamtausgabe is doubtless more clearly
printed and easier to read?
hornd...@gmail.com
ago, the edition is more than 25 year old. The only part where there is
some iffy ground is that it was published in 1926 and that Hans Gal
died in 1987. Though I'm fairly sure that dover would not illegally
publish this for as long as they have.) and that this edition is
probably clearer than the original. I'd still like to find a copy of
the simrock scores. (If for no other reason than to compare and to see
the state of music publishing in that era.)
-----Horndude77
Peter T. Daniels
Of publishing, or of engraving? The score'll look like any other score
produced around the same time.
David Gray Porter
domain.
Those airplane ads just jumped the gun a little.
--
http://depts.washington.edu/reecas/events/conf2002/papers02/Niekum.doc
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:446CFE...@worldnet.att.net...
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Hey, this means that in 14 months, George Gershwin's music becomes public
> domain.
> Those airplane ads just jumped the gun a little.
No, the law changed. United Airlines first used Rhapsody in Blue the day
after the 50th anniversary of his death (the really clever one set among
the paintings at the Art Institute -- talk about intertextuality!! --
their home town museum).
Michael Haslam
I don't know about the US but certainly in the UK some pieces/composers
that were Public Domain before the extension from 50 to 70 years after
the composer's death went back into copyright for a few years, eg Elgar
(?d.1936, which would mean he goes back into Public Domain at the end of
this year.)
--
MJHaslam
Remove accidentals to obtain correct e-address
"Can't you show a little restraint?" - Dr. David Tholen
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > David Gray Porter wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey, this means that in 14 months, George Gershwin's music becomes public
> > > domain.
> > > Those airplane ads just jumped the gun a little.
> >
> > No, the law changed. United Airlines first used Rhapsody in Blue the day
> > after the 50th anniversary of his death (the really clever one set among
> > the paintings at the Art Institute -- talk about intertextuality!! --
> > their home town museum).
>
> I don't know about the US but certainly in the UK some pieces/composers
> that were Public Domain before the extension from 50 to 70 years after
> the composer's death went back into copyright for a few years, eg Elgar
> (?d.1936, which would mean he goes back into Public Domain at the end of
> this year.)
United sure didn't stop using the Rhapsody in its commercials when the
law changed. (Including production of many new ones.)
John W. Kennedy
As far as I know, the changes in the US law did /not/ involve
retroactively putting things back into copyright. It certainly didn't
happen with books.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
David Gray Porter
--
http://depts.washington.edu/reecas/events/conf2002/papers02/Niekum.doc
"John W. Kennedy" <jwk...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:8SLbg.4162$6d2....@fe08.lga...
John W. Kennedy
> It did happen with an awful film called ironically "It's a Wonderful Life."
No, although the copyright to "It's a Wonderful Life" had been allowed
to lapse under the old law, it was not restored to copyright status as a
result of the change. A Supreme Court ruling brought it back under
control of the owners because the short story it was based on ("The
Greatest Gift", by Philip Van Doren Stern) was still under copyright.
Margaret Mikulska
> hornd...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>I'd still like to find a copy of
>>the simrock scores. (If for no other reason than to compare and to see
>>the state of music publishing in that era.)
>
> Of publishing, or of engraving? The score'll look like any other score
> produced around the same time.
Utter nonsense, P.T. Don't write about things you know nothing about.
Every edition has an editor who makes editorial decisions. The
differences between various editions of the same work are often very
significant. Sometimes this is a major headache for musicologists (but
sometimes it helps determine the original text of the work).
-MM
Dr Matt
As one of the fringe benefits of the week I spent with the Minnesota
Orchestra at the beginning of this month, I now have on my shelf
Schirmer's stylebook, a gift to each of the composer participants
from Susan Feder. I've read much of it in detail, and skimmed other
portions devoted to the intricacies of building a set of
Schirmer-specific templates in Score software (engraver-specific
software which I used 1985-1987 but which I find unsuitable for
composition).
Schirmer's style of notation is highly consistent with Schirmer--
and very distinct not only in fonts but in placement rules and other
details from Universal, Peters, and especially Durand (forget about
Hal Leonard....) . Most interesting to me was their rules for the
use of wiggly lines over trills: They only use the wiggly
line when a trill is over a tied note, and then only extend the wiggle
to slightly past the last tied notehead incorporated into the tie.
For trills on a single notehead, even if it's a double-whole note, they
only use the script mark "tr" (which they use on every trill in any
case). Their philosophy on trill bars seems
to be analogous to the way they use extension lines after syllables
in vocal music to clarify melismas. They also insist that such vocal
texts be broken into syllables per standard dictionaries, regardless
of how singers break them in performance, and that they be capitalized
and punctuated exactly as in the original publication.
An aside especially for PTD: Two places in the stylebook deal
specifically with what they call "un-frenched" scores, that is,
scores in which no staves are ever omitted and no systems are ever
consolidated onto a page. In both places, the publishers make clear
that this is a preliminary format of a work that they judge is likely
to be revised. They emphasize that it is for the convenience of the
publisher only, and they state explicitly that it is inconvenient
to conductors because it forces conductors to turn more pages.
Final publications of scores are always artfully "frenched",
according to them.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
John Wiser
>
> I've been looking for a copy of the old Simrock scores to Brahms
> symphonies. I haven't found a place to buy them or check them out from
> a library. Anybody know where to find these? www.imslp.org has a copy
> of the symphonies edited by Hans Gal and published in 1926 (dover
> score). It seems to be in the public domain according to German
> copyright law, but I'd like to find the original to be sure it's out of
> copyright version. Thanks for the help!
Apart from the considerations mentioned by Mikulska and Field (you may
safely ignore ignoramus Daniels),. Simrock's scores were printed on
a peculiarly nasty sort of high-acid paper, which time and oxygen have
rendered into low-grade dark-brown mulch. Libraries have for the most part
have discarded these as too fragile for practical use in reference or
performance.
> PS I'm also looking for original/old scores to Beethoven Horn Sonata
> Op. 17 and the Mozart horn concerti if you have any clues to where to
> find these either.
These are of course much older and were usually printed on better paper.
But they are of museum-grade rarity. Prepare to spend a year's middle-class
income on the 1801 Johannn André partitur of K.; 447, if you can find one
for sale,
and that's just one concerto. Look for "Premier Concerto pour le Cor, Oeuvre
92"
if you're browsing in Blackwell's [insert smirky here].
cordially
--
John Wiser
cee...@frontiernet.net
jic...@frontiernet.net
visit http://jicotea.pbwiki.com and
http://bargainbooks.pbwiki.com for my book lists,
http://ceeclef.pbwiki.com for printed music,
books on music and recordings.
Jicotea Used Books & Music
33 Newton Drive / PO Box 136
Howells NY 10932 0136 USA
845 386 2824
Peter T. Daniels
Please try to read for comprehension rather than for point-scoring,
Margaret.
An 1860 Brahms orchestral score will look a lot like an 1860 Liszt
orchestral score or an 1860 Beethoven orchestral score.
I've never come across a mention of textual difficulties in Brahms's
scores, since he was very much there to supervise the printing and see
that it was done correctly.
Or have you forgotten that a great deal of his time was spent precisely
as an editor of other composers' music? Schumann and Bach come to mind.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> hornd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I've been looking for a copy of the old Simrock scores to Brahms
> > symphonies. I haven't found a place to buy them or check them out from
> > a library. Anybody know where to find these? www.imslp.org has a copy
> > of the symphonies edited by Hans Gal and published in 1926 (dover
> > score). It seems to be in the public domain according to German
> > copyright law, but I'd like to find the original to be sure it's out of
> > copyright version. Thanks for the help!
>
> Apart from the considerations mentioned by Mikulska and Field (you may
> safely ignore ignoramus Daniels),.
Look who's talking!
The owner of the original ironic name.
Ian Pace
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4471C1...@worldnet.att.net...
> Margaret Mikulska wrote:
>>
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > hornd...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >
>> >>I'd still like to find a copy of
>> >>the simrock scores. (If for no other reason than to compare and to see
>> >>the state of music publishing in that era.)
>> >
>> > Of publishing, or of engraving? The score'll look like any other score
>> > produced around the same time.
>>
>> Utter nonsense, P.T. Don't write about things you know nothing about.
>> Every edition has an editor who makes editorial decisions. The
>> differences between various editions of the same work are often very
>> significant. Sometimes this is a major headache for musicologists (but
>> sometimes it helps determine the original text of the work).
>
> Please try to read for comprehension rather than for point-scoring,
> Margaret.
>
> An 1860 Brahms orchestral score will look a lot like an 1860 Liszt
> orchestral score or an 1860 Beethoven orchestral score.
In what sense do you mean? Printed where? Edited by whom? Standards of
editing varied considerably in that period.
>
> I've never come across a mention of textual difficulties in Brahms's
> scores, since he was very much there to supervise the printing and see
> that it was done correctly.
>
> Or have you forgotten that a great deal of his time was spent precisely
> as an editor of other composers' music? Schumann and Bach come to mind.
> --
I would read some of what Robert Pascall, co-founder of the new Johannes
Brahms Gesamtausgabe, has to say on the subject, if I were you. His essay
'The Editor's Brahms', in Michael Musgrave (ed) - The Cambridge Companion to
Brahms, is a good place to start. There are most definitely textual
difficulties in Brahms's scores.
Also, look at the situation with editions of Chopin or Schumann to see quite
how many difficulties can arise with respect to editions. When composers
write multiple versions of works, have them published simultaneously by
different companies in different countries, or modify scores and parts
post-publication on the basis of experience from performance, and so on, the
complications are legendary.
Ian
Nightingale
Margaret Mikulska wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> hornd...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I'd still like to find a copy of
>>> the simrock scores. (If for no other reason than to compare and to see
>>> the state of music publishing in that era.)
>>
>>
>> Of publishing, or of engraving? The score'll look like any other score
>> produced around the same time.
>
>
> Utter nonsense, P.T. Don't write about things you know nothing about.
> Every edition has an editor who makes editorial decisions.
The look of the score will have far more to do with the publisher than
the editor. Some of my teachers can look at a page of music and know
what company published it and when. Sometimes it is the editorial
decisions which will tell you when a score was published (for example,
early choral music) but sometimes it's nothing at all to do with
content, just visual things like fonts, spacing, & shapes of slurs. The
larger publishers all have consistent looks to their scores.
--
Io la Musica son, ch'ai dolci accenti
So far tranquillo ogni turbato core,
Et or di nobil ira et or d'amore
Poss'infiammar le più gelate menti.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:4471C1...@worldnet.att.net...
> > Margaret Mikulska wrote:
> >>
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>
> >> > hornd...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>I'd still like to find a copy of
> >> >>the simrock scores. (If for no other reason than to compare and to see
> >> >>the state of music publishing in that era.)
> >> >
> >> > Of publishing, or of engraving? The score'll look like any other score
> >> > produced around the same time.
> >>
> >> Utter nonsense, P.T. Don't write about things you know nothing about.
> >> Every edition has an editor who makes editorial decisions. The
> >> differences between various editions of the same work are often very
> >> significant. Sometimes this is a major headache for musicologists (but
> >> sometimes it helps determine the original text of the work).
> >
> > Please try to read for comprehension rather than for point-scoring,
> > Margaret.
> >
> > An 1860 Brahms orchestral score will look a lot like an 1860 Liszt
> > orchestral score or an 1860 Beethoven orchestral score.
>
> In what sense do you mean? Printed where? Edited by whom? Standards of
> editing varied considerably in that period.
Read what I wrote: "will look like."
> > I've never come across a mention of textual difficulties in Brahms's
> > scores, since he was very much there to supervise the printing and see
> > that it was done correctly.
> >
> > Or have you forgotten that a great deal of his time was spent precisely
> > as an editor of other composers' music? Schumann and Bach come to mind.
> > --
>
> I would read some of what Robert Pascall, co-founder of the new Johannes
> Brahms Gesamtausgabe, has to say on the subject, if I were you. His essay
> 'The Editor's Brahms', in Michael Musgrave (ed) - The Cambridge Companion to
> Brahms, is a good place to start. There are most definitely textual
> difficulties in Brahms's scores.
On the magnitude of those in, say, Bach?
> Also, look at the situation with editions of Chopin or Schumann to see quite
> how many difficulties can arise with respect to editions. When composers
> write multiple versions of works, have them published simultaneously by
> different companies in different countries, or modify scores and parts
> post-publication on the basis of experience from performance, and so on, the
> complications are legendary.
And did Brahms have to get published in separate editions in different
countries, like the earlier guys? Photolithography had been invented by
then.
Ian Pace
And I repeat - what do you mean by "will look like"? Even if the engraving
tools are similar, other aspects of the appearance are affected by editorial
and printing decisions.
>
>> > I've never come across a mention of textual difficulties in Brahms's
>> > scores, since he was very much there to supervise the printing and see
>> > that it was done correctly.
>> >
>> > Or have you forgotten that a great deal of his time was spent precisely
>> > as an editor of other composers' music? Schumann and Bach come to mind.
>> > --
>>
>> I would read some of what Robert Pascall, co-founder of the new Johannes
>> Brahms Gesamtausgabe, has to say on the subject, if I were you. His essay
>> 'The Editor's Brahms', in Michael Musgrave (ed) - The Cambridge Companion
>> to
>> Brahms, is a good place to start. There are most definitely textual
>> difficulties in Brahms's scores.
>
> On the magnitude of those in, say, Bach?
Not as big as that, no, but still very substantial. Brahms himself was well
aware of how many errors crept into his scores upon publication. Printing of
scores in those days took quite a number of people, with all the associated
possibilities for human error. Printers had to interpret various rather
ambiguous symbols. One example is the use of hairpins - Pascall (in his
short pamphlet 'Playing Brahms') finds 13 incorrectly extended or
incorrectly placed hairpins on the first page of the score of the slow
movement of the First Symphony, for example. Brahms would sometimes make
corrections that didn't always make it to the final copies. You can also
find corrections to his own copy of the printed version of the Motet 'O
Heiland, reiss' die Himmel auf' Op. 74, for example, to remove consecutive
octaves between alto and tenor parts.
Also some works were published posthumously
>
>> Also, look at the situation with editions of Chopin or Schumann to see
>> quite
>> how many difficulties can arise with respect to editions. When composers
>> write multiple versions of works, have them published simultaneously by
>> different companies in different countries, or modify scores and parts
>> post-publication on the basis of experience from performance, and so on,
>> the
>> complications are legendary.
>
> And did Brahms have to get published in separate editions in different
> countries, like the earlier guys? Photolithography had been invented by
> then.
> --
No, but this was a point about the problems in general with editions. Some
(including Charles Rosen) would assert that there as yet no ideal editions
of either Chopin or Schumann (and Schumann's works were collected around
about the time we are speaking of, after his death).
Ian
Peter T. Daniels
The overall "look" of publications, of whatever genre, is similar within
decades or so. Pick up any history of (book) design.
> >> > I've never come across a mention of textual difficulties in Brahms's
> >> > scores, since he was very much there to supervise the printing and see
> >> > that it was done correctly.
> >> >
> >> > Or have you forgotten that a great deal of his time was spent precisely
> >> > as an editor of other composers' music? Schumann and Bach come to mind.
> >> > --
> >>
> >> I would read some of what Robert Pascall, co-founder of the new Johannes
> >> Brahms Gesamtausgabe, has to say on the subject, if I were you. His essay
> >> 'The Editor's Brahms', in Michael Musgrave (ed) - The Cambridge Companion
> >> to
> >> Brahms, is a good place to start. There are most definitely textual
> >> difficulties in Brahms's scores.
> >
> > On the magnitude of those in, say, Bach?
>
> Not as big as that, no, but still very substantial. Brahms himself was well
> aware of how many errors crept into his scores upon publication. Printing of
> scores in those days took quite a number of people, with all the associated
> possibilities for human error. Printers had to interpret various rather
I think you must mean engravers, not printers.
> ambiguous symbols. One example is the use of hairpins - Pascall (in his
> short pamphlet 'Playing Brahms') finds 13 incorrectly extended or
> incorrectly placed hairpins on the first page of the score of the slow
The engraver didn't follow copy? Perhaps the ms. was unclear. The maxim
of the typesetter, and it can't be any different for the music engraver,
is, "Follow copy, even if it goes out the window."
> movement of the First Symphony, for example. Brahms would sometimes make
> corrections that didn't always make it to the final copies. You can also
> find corrections to his own copy of the printed version of the Motet 'O
> Heiland, reiss' die Himmel auf' Op. 74, for example, to remove consecutive
> octaves between alto and tenor parts.
That hardly sounds like a printing error -- rather, an elementary
composition error.
> Also some works were published posthumously
> >
> >> Also, look at the situation with editions of Chopin or Schumann to see
> >> quite
> >> how many difficulties can arise with respect to editions. When composers
> >> write multiple versions of works, have them published simultaneously by
> >> different companies in different countries, or modify scores and parts
> >> post-publication on the basis of experience from performance, and so on,
> >> the
> >> complications are legendary.
> >
> > And did Brahms have to get published in separate editions in different
> > countries, like the earlier guys? Photolithography had been invented by
> > then.
> > --
> No, but this was a point about the problems in general with editions. Some
> (including Charles Rosen) would assert that there as yet no ideal editions
> of either Chopin or Schumann (and Schumann's works were collected around
> about the time we are speaking of, after his death).
They were edited by Clara Schumann and Johannes Brahms, who had their
reasons for making some decisions and suppressing some items -- such as
the Violin Concerto, which didn't see the light of day until 1936
(because Joachim didn't like it).
David Gray Porter
writrten for Score to alter Schirmer's style choices. (One of the first
improvements he made regards the placing of beams along the staff lines.)
Another problem I came acros with publishers is their devotion to the 8-page
gathering to a fault. In Ives's Hanover Square piece, this resulted in the
Horn ossia being an insert instead of an attached page.
--
http://depts.washington.edu/reecas/events/conf2002/papers02/Niekum.doc
"Dr Matt" <"matt\"DrMatt\"fields"@tds.net> wrote in message
news:44719...@newspeer2.tds.net...
David Gray Porter
Sibelius look. I like Sibelius because I like the look of older music
scores (the Lucks Music Library look), and to me Finale looks like something
as ugly as the Skull and Bones building on Hill Street in New Haven. Or the
school of architechture building on Church Street. Boxy and ugly.
I know for a fact that each era has its engraving idiosyncracies. Look at
the "backwards" F-clefs in some old scores. And look how relatively simple
music was until about a hundred years ago. The guy who engraved that one
movement of Ives's 4th Symphony had one of the most challenging jobs ahead
of him when he took on that one in 1928. (And he still did a major fudge on
the first page.)
--
http://depts.washington.edu/reecas/events/conf2002/papers02/Niekum.doc
"Margaret Mikulska" <musik...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4470E596...@gmail.com...
Peter T. Daniels
>
> You should have a conversation with Tom Brodhead about the programs he's
> writrten for Score to alter Schirmer's style choices. (One of the first
> improvements he made regards the placing of beams along the staff lines.)
>
> Another problem I came acros with publishers is their devotion to the 8-page
> gathering to a fault. In Ives's Hanover Square piece, this resulted in the
> Horn ossia being an insert instead of an attached page.
Have you ever considered how a book is manufactured? What would you
recommend instead, wasting 6 pages' worth of blank paper in every copy?
Then don't you _ever_ complain about the cost of music.
Ian Pace
Thank you for finally giving your definition of what you mean by "will look
like". There are other things that affect how I perceive the 'look'.
Indeed it was, and the engravers had to work in a hurry. You should read
some of Pascall's writings on this.
> The maxim
> of the typesetter, and it can't be any different for the music engraver,
> is, "Follow copy, even if it goes out the window."
And the copy can be ambiguous, and often things are done in a hurry.
>
>> movement of the First Symphony, for example. Brahms would sometimes make
>> corrections that didn't always make it to the final copies. You can also
>> find corrections to his own copy of the printed version of the Motet 'O
>> Heiland, reiss' die Himmel auf' Op. 74, for example, to remove
>> consecutive
>> octaves between alto and tenor parts.
>
> That hardly sounds like a printing error -- rather, an elementary
> composition error.
It reflects an alteration made after the work was printed - not a printing
error, but the sort of thing that those compiling a new edition take into
account.
You might also look into the question of multiple versions of Schumann's
pieces, and which versions were/weren't included.
Ian
David Gray Porter
also say that if youput it to Ives, he'd say something like "make it a
10-page (5 douible-leaf) gathering in any case where you need to." If they
can't do something better than that misanthobotic repetition of "8 pages! 8
pages!" in the 21st Century, they should oughta just give it up now. If
Beckman-Coulter can design and build a DNA testing machine entirely on their
premises juist by telling their existiing machines to do X Y and Z to make
something new, then a music publisher can use a 10-sheet gathering now and
then without having to squawk about it.
Not only did they have to make it an insert, but they didn't bother to
reconcile that new format with the footnote in the Horn part which placed
the ossia as the last page of the full score. And if that wasn't enough, in
the three or 4 climactic pages, they took the Distant Choir out completely
and stuck it as a score insert or something at the end of the full score!
'"It would have made the pages too big!" Christ, I've seen CF Peters scores
of Ligeti that don't conform to the "standard" page size and CFP didn't get
dashed on the rocks for it.
Another stupid publishing gaffe that is related to this mindset was when
Columbia puts out the '74 Ives Centennial album with a recording of "Masses"
that didn't include two verses that they left in the booklet. If anyone had
been awake they would have known to delete the verses from the booklet.
--
http://depts.washington.edu/reecas/events/conf2002/papers02/Niekum.doc
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:44738B...@worldnet.att.net...
Michael Haslam
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:447312...@worldnet.att.net...
> > Ian Pace wrote:
> >>
> >> ambiguous symbols. One example is the use of hairpins - Pascall (in his
> >> short pamphlet 'Playing Brahms') finds 13 incorrectly extended or
> >> incorrectly placed hairpins on the first page of the score of the slow
> >
> > The engraver didn't follow copy? Perhaps the ms. was unclear.
>
> Indeed it was, and the engravers had to work in a hurry. You should read
> some of Pascall's writings on this.
>
> > The maxim
> > of the typesetter, and it can't be any different for the music engraver,
> > is, "Follow copy, even if it goes out the window."
>
> And the copy can be ambiguous, and often things are done in a hurry.
Hairpins and accents (>) are notoriously prone to misinterpretation;
many of Schubert's accents were printed as short diminuendos and the
errors have persisted until now.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> What kind of stupid apologia is that anyway? I expected better of you. I
> also say that if youput it to Ives, he'd say something like "make it a
> 10-page (5 douible-leaf) gathering in any case where you need to." If they
Then Ives was even stupider about this than you are.
Unless, of course, he wanted every copy to be hand-assembled.
As if he didn't care whether anyone could afford to buy a copy of the
work or not.
> can't do something better than that misanthobotic repetition of "8 pages! 8
> pages!" in the 21st Century, they should oughta just give it up now. If
> Beckman-Coulter can design and build a DNA testing machine entirely on their
> premises juist by telling their existiing machines to do X Y and Z to make
> something new, then a music publisher can use a 10-sheet gathering now and
> then without having to squawk about it.
Do explain how to fold a sheet of paper into exactly 5 leaves.
(Everything below here has nothing whatsoever to do with the question.)
> Not only did they have to make it an insert, but they didn't bother to
> reconcile that new format with the footnote in the Horn part which placed
> the ossia as the last page of the full score. And if that wasn't enough, in
> the three or 4 climactic pages, they took the Distant Choir out completely
> and stuck it as a score insert or something at the end of the full score!
> '"It would have made the pages too big!" Christ, I've seen CF Peters scores
> of Ligeti that don't conform to the "standard" page size and CFP didn't get
> dashed on the rocks for it.
>
> Another stupid publishing gaffe that is related to this mindset was when
> Columbia puts out the '74 Ives Centennial album with a recording of "Masses"
> that didn't include two verses that they left in the booklet. If anyone had
> been awake they would have known to delete the verses from the booklet.
Not the printer's fault.
David Gray Porter
majors know less than jack shit about what you can do with existing
technology that not only can customize any assemblage but also make it
profitable.
Are you really trying to tell me that no publisher can automate the process
of assembling 10-leaf gatherings at any time they need to?? That the only
alternative ius handbinding?? Maybe you are as silly and irrelevant as some
say!
--
http://depts.washington.edu/reecas/events/conf2002/papers02/Niekum.doc
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:447455...@worldnet.att.net...
> David Gray Porter wrote:
>>
>> What kind of stupid apologia is that anyway? I expected better of you.
>> I
>> also say that if you put it to Ives, he'd say something like "make it a
>> 10-page (5 douible-leaf) gathering in any case where you need to." If
>> they
>
> Then Ives was even stupider about this than you are.
>
> Unless, of course, he wanted every copy to be hand-assembled.
>
> As if he didn't care whether anyone could afford to buy a copy of the
> work or not.
I think you just proved who deserved the Stupid Award for the week.
>> can't do something better than that misanthobotic repetition of "8 pages!
>> 8
>> pages!" in the 21st Century, they should oughta just give it up now. If
>> Beckman-Coulter can design and build a DNA testing machine entirely on
>> their
>> premises juist by telling their existiing machines to do X Y and Z to
>> make
>> something new, then a music publisher can use a 10-sheet gathering now
>> and
>> then without having to squawk about it.
>
> Do explain how to fold a sheet of paper into exactly 5 leaves.
Why do you have to limit yourself to the product of a single four-fold?
Obviously the answer is to make not 4 four-folds but five, with the fifth
set then collated with the other four. If you think this is a
budget-buster, I can only suppose that you think publishers now have to make
"runs" of say a thousand copies at once. The truth is that once the
matertrials are prepared, any number great or few can be run as needed. Its
called "using a computer" and some people have learned how to do it.
I know for a fact that just up the main drag here, about four or 5 miles,
they can design a mchine from scratch and not have to build one single new
tool to do it, and all you need to assemble anything you design is the guy
to input the specs. They can make ANYTHING and no one does any manual work
assembling the machines that can tell you whether or not the DNA they found
is yours. If you still think that publishing has to be limited to old
traditional "treid unt true" methods that give me the George Bush choice,
the old way or no way, then get rid of your computer and surely never learn
a music program -- stick to cutting into brass plates and always use an
Osmiroid when copying, and never use a copyt machine!
What you're apologizing for is a kind of laziness Mahler called
"schlamperei." Ives would call it being Rollo. Hi, Rollo Daniels.