Happy Birthday, Sir Thomas
alanwa...@aol.com
"reet good mill town at the time" and, for some, a musician still
spinning some musical magic.
I'm only going to repeat three of them:
"Never look at brass or percussion, it only encourages them."
To a tenor after a stilted romantic scene: "Have you ever actually made
love? I only ask because your actions remind me of that estimable
quadruped, the hedgehog."
After an on stage horse (Aida I think) had dumped the contents of it's
bowels upon the operatic stage:
"Well, ladies and gentlemen, you may not think much of it's manners but
you have to admire it as a critic."
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Richard Loeb
deflate a lot the nonsense going around now Richard
<alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1114807242....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Richard Loeb wrote:
> SORELY missed and the kind of musician and personality we need today to
> deflate a lot the nonsense going around now Richard
One wonders what Sir Thomas's reactions would be to some of
the more bizarre among today's operatic stagings? (When he
was conducting opera, it hadn't yet deteriorated to the
present point, where the stage director rules, and the music
often runs a poor second.)
patter
Gemini two-fers of Haydn Symphonies 93-104 and his Seasons!
Wonderful,so full of wit,dedication,joyful musicmaking. The phrasing
and obvious love between Sir Thomas & his Royal Philharmonic is not to
be found today-anywhere. Listen and learn about what really matters-you
won't find a better teacher.
Proud Clarion
in regular media or the specialized publications devoted to opera, and
you'll see paragraph after paragraph describing the staging concept,
the sets, the costumes. And at the very end -- oh, yes, there is brief
mention of the fact that there were SINGERS involved in this
performance.
PC
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1114889112.627780.306800
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
It could be worse. I've read reviews of ballet performances where,
similarly, you got paragraph after paragraph discussing this performer and
that choreographer, and past dancers and choreographers, and other ballet
companies, and so on ... and no mention of the composer's name.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:1114886942.941895.176620
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
> Happy Birthday Sir Thomas-I'm going to be listening to the recent Emi
> Gemini two-fers of Haydn Symphonies 93-104 and his Seasons!
How does the Gemini release of "The Seasons" compare with the SOMM, which I
recently obtained from Berkshire?
> Wonderful, so full of wit, dedication, joyful musicmaking. The phrasing
> and obvious love between Sir Thomas & his Royal Philharmonic is not to
> be found today-anywhere. Listen and learn about what really matters-you
> won't find a better teacher.
--
alanwa...@aol.com
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "Proud Clarion" <proudc...@aol.com> appears to have caused the
following
> letters to be typed in news:1114889112.627780.306800
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Read almost any review of an opera performance these days,
whether
> > in regular media or the specialized publications devoted to opera,
and
> > you'll see paragraph after paragraph describing the staging
concept,
> > the sets, the costumes. And at the very end -- oh, yes, there is
brief
> > mention of the fact that there were SINGERS involved in this
> > performance.
>
> It could be worse. I've read reviews of ballet performances where,
> similarly, you got paragraph after paragraph discussing this
performer and
> that choreographer, and past dancers and choreographers, and other
ballet
> companies, and so on ... and no mention of the composer's name.
And probably not a mention of the orchestra or of the conductor either.
In the latter case it simply explains why there is a worldwide
shortage of good ballet conductors. It is a bad career move. Ask
Andrew Mogrelia. Although one of the best ballet conductors in the
world it has not moved his career on one jot and it won't.
I keep telling him to get out of it but the silly chap won't because he
likes it so much.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Richard Loeb wrote:
>
> > SORELY missed and the kind of musician and personality we need today to
> > deflate a lot the nonsense going around now Richard
>
> One wonders what Sir Thomas's reactions would be to some of
> the more bizarre among today's operatic stagings? (When he
> was conducting opera, it hadn't yet deteriorated to the
> present point, where the stage director rules, and the music
> often runs a poor second.)
On the other hand, _some_ innovative directors make sitting through yet
another Butterfly, Traviata, or Tannhäuser less of a chore.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> > "Proud Clarion" <proudc...@aol.com> appears to have caused the
> following
> > letters to be typed in news:1114889112.627780.306800
> > @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> >
> > > Read almost any review of an opera performance these days, whether
> > > in regular media or the specialized publications devoted to opera, and
> > > you'll see paragraph after paragraph describing the staging concept,
> > > the sets, the costumes. And at the very end -- oh, yes, there is brief
> > > mention of the fact that there were SINGERS involved in this
> > > performance.
The singers these days aren't often worth mentioning.
> > It could be worse. I've read reviews of ballet performances where,
> > similarly, you got paragraph after paragraph discussing this performer and
> > that choreographer, and past dancers and choreographers, and other ballet
> > companies, and so on ... and no mention of the composer's name.
>
> And probably not a mention of the orchestra or of the conductor either.
> In the latter case it simply explains why there is a worldwide
> shortage of good ballet conductors. It is a bad career move. Ask
> Andrew Mogrelia. Although one of the best ballet conductors in the
> world it has not moved his career on one jot and it won't.
>
> I keep telling him to get out of it but the silly chap won't because he
> likes it so much.
As such as Merce Cunningham have shown, you don't need music for dance.
Praetorius
Some more:
Sir Thomas Beecham was once asked if he had played any
Stockhausen. "No," he replied, "but I have trodden in some."
from http://humor.catweasel.org/Site1/Digests/H9802270.php
Try everything once except folk dancing and incest.
- Sir Thomas Beecham
from of http://www.tonmeister.ca/personal/geoff/stuff/words.html
I posted the following 5 years ago (today), so they may still be "new" to
many here now:
What's a Beecham tribute without a sampling of some quotes?
A musicologist is a man who can read music but can't hear it.
Too much counterpoint -- and what is worse, Protestant counterpoint.
Even Beethoven thumped the tub; the Ninth Symphony was
composed by kind of Mr Gladstone of music.
Fritz Reiner: I wanted to thank you for a wonderful night
with Mozart and Beecham.
Beecham: Why drag in Mozart?
[Of Karajan] A kind of musical Malcolm Sargent.
Elgar's music is like the façade of Euston station.
The British may not like music, but they absolutely
love the noise it makes.
Why do we have to have all these third-rate foreign
conductors around -- when we have so many
second-rate ones of our own?
[Of the harpsichord] Sounds like two skeletons
copulating on a corrugated tin roof.
Music is something that people can get on without,
and if it costs too much they will.
There are two golden rules for an orchestra:
start together and finish together. The public doesn't
give a damn what goes on in between.
[When rehearsing Götterdämerung]
We've been rehearsing for two hours --
and we're still playing the same bloody tune!
And, for Don Patterson, of the trombone:
Without question the most unpopular medium
of musical sound in the world.
Mr Hoyland [a bass trombonist], are you producing
as much sound as possible from the quaint and
antique drainage system you are applying to your face?
[Hoyland replied that he was.]
Well, then, roll it about on the floor!
Quotations from Crofton and Fraser, _A Dictionary of Musical Quotations_
(New York: Schirmer Books, 1985). E-mail me for attributions/sources [many
are quoted in Atkins and Newman, _Beecham Stories_ (1978) and Reid,
_Thomas Beecham_ (1961)].
Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.
"You are no bigger than
the things that annoy you."
Jerry Bundsen
Richard Loeb
news:1114893840.4...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I have his work on Naxos - its wonderful Richard
>
Praetorius
> Tommy Beecham born on this day in St Helens, Lancashire, England, a
> "reet good mill town at the time" and, for some, a musician still
> spinning some musical magic.
>
> I'm only going to repeat three of them:
More Beecham stories and quotes at "True Tales of Tommy"
http://www.houseoftoucans.com/True/True3.html
Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.
"You are no bigger than
the things that annoy you."
Jerry Bundsen .
alanwa...@aol.com
> >
> > And probably not a mention of the orchestra or of the conductor
either.
> > In the latter case it simply explains why there is a worldwide
> > shortage of good ballet conductors. It is a bad career move. Ask
> > Andrew Mogrelia. Although one of the best ballet conductors in the
> > world it has not moved his career on one jot and it won't.
> >
> > I keep telling him to get out of it but the silly chap won't
because he
> > likes it so much.
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Alan M. Watkins
>
> I have his work on Naxos - its wonderful Richard
Yes, Andrew is a great musician and his Swan Lake recording is one of
the best I have ever heard.
Yes he is wonderful but, alas, not famous and not likely to be the way
he is going. You do not get famous conducting ballet however good you
are.
You could also ask Barry Wordsworth, another UK chap:):)
La Donna Mobile
the same audience that has grown up on twenty years of pornographic
shock rock videos. It's about time people understand that when rock is
pushing the envelope right through Satan's letter box, opera has to keep
up. Because, if you think about it, a lot of rock videos are truly great
pieces of art accompanying utterly disposable music. The challenge is to
produce the ultimate unbroadcastable shock opera video to the most
shocking music - something like Tristan und Isolde which would just
leave the Christina Aguileras and Prodigys of the rock world looking
like absolute beginners.
Proud Clarion wrote:
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
Brendan R. Wehrung
Somebody told me Fanfare has been quite hard on these sets, on stylistic
grounds apparently (Fanfare is no longer easily available in my area).
Has HIP become so dominant that graceful performances like these are no
longer acceptable on their own terms?
Brendan
--
Brendan R. Wehrung
"Matthew B. Tepper" (oy兀earthlink.net) writes:
> "Proud Clarion" <proudc...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:1114889112.627780.306800
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>> Read almost any review of an opera performance these days, whether
>> in regular media or the specialized publications devoted to opera, and
>> you'll see paragraph after paragraph describing the staging concept,
>> the sets, the costumes. And at the very end -- oh, yes, there is brief
>> mention of the fact that there were SINGERS involved in this
>> performance.
>
> It could be worse. I've read reviews of ballet performances where,
> similarly, you got paragraph after paragraph discussing this performer and
> that choreographer, and past dancers and choreographers, and other ballet
> companies, and so on ... and no mention of the composer's name.
>
I don't read rock criticism, but is this also the situation there, the
experience is more than the sum of the parts?
Brendan
--
Sergio da Silva
because there is always something good/positive. But I've left an opera
performance because of the staging and probably should have left some others
as well.
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:4273F3...@worldnet.att.net...
Sergio da Silva
is very unlikely you will ever like opera. Bad state starts early and it
sticks.
Now seriously, I really doubt the argument that we must do these crazy
productions or DVDs like the one for Anna Netrebko to entice young
audiences. This is all baloney, opera is usually like love at first site,
you either get it or you never will. Most teens today listen to rap music
for instance not because they like it but because it is part of their
culture, that is, to be accepted you must like it. If opera were as "in" as
rap then young audiences would flock to it but not necessarily like it. Even
so, I doubt that as well because to understand opera, you must sit down and
listen following a libretto preferably the first time. It takes time and
effort, something young audiences are not up to.
"La Donna Mobile" <ladonn...@REMOVEbrixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in
message news:d515a7$bll$1...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
La Donna Mobile
But I do like opera and I do like rock. The next CD I'm planning to play is Bruce Springsteen, who is far from being my favourite. And even in my teens, my best friend and I were wannabe born-too-late Punks and opera fans. I'm not saying we sat down regularly and listened to full length operas, but we always watched those shown on TV (and not just because we fancied a certain tenor...), and also to highlights and aria selections. She used to have blazing rows with her piano teacher who used to say she shouldn't play David Bowie tunes.
There are plenty of actual proper opera singers and other professional classical musicians who also listen to rock.
It is possible to like junk food and to appreciate a good meal properly cooked all with fresh good quality ingredients.
I think more seriously, there is a strong argument for incorporating various elements of what's going on in other arts and crafts into opera, which, in my view, is the glorious summit that can incorporate just about everything else. I won't even go into the differences that electricity has made to opera. However, if it is regarded as entirely legitimate for modern artists and designers eg David Hockney, Zandra Rhodes to be involved in designing productions I see no a priori reason for excluding video imagery, especially in the way that it has been developed in rock videos. I typed the comment after watching a programme about the 'Videos they Tried To Ban'. a Lot of them were just gratuitous or were merely a marketing device for some indifferent or truly awful music. There's a very good argument for using CGI in Wagner, for example.
One of the ones they mentioned was Frankie Goes to Hollywood's Relax which was banned because, amongst other things, it showed simulated (and fully clothed) gay sex between two men. Yet while that song was number one in the charts for weeks and weeks, I remember watching a ballet on the TV, before the magic watershed time of 9pm, of gay sex between two women. Possibly simulated, but there wasn't a shred of clothing on either of them.
I haven't actually seen the Anna Netrebko videos so I can't comment on them, but I really don't see any problem with the concept of marketing, and actually argue that if aria albums by proper singers were marketed as aggressively as those by imitators, Rolando Villazon's Italian Opera Arias would have outsold the entire oeuvre of Bocelli and Watson combined.
Despite the best efforts of my parents, my father in particular, I was originally turned onto opera by Placido Domingo appearing on a chat show a few days ahead of the TV broadcast of Les Contes d'Hoffmann, which I insisted on watching. I wouldn't have watched it if it had been just this thing in the Radio Times that my parents were wanting to watch in preference to some Light Entertainment, and I would have retreated to my room with my book. (My then best friend was exactly the same, and we came to exactly the same conclusion independently). We were marketed at. She had just turned 13, I was about to.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> I hardly doubt that. If you listen to rock in your teens (I never did :-) it
> is very unlikely you will ever like opera. Bad state starts early and it
> sticks.
> Now seriously, I really doubt the argument that we must do these crazy
> productions or DVDs like the one for Anna Netrebko to entice young
> audiences. This is all baloney, opera is usually like love at first site,
> you either get it or you never will. Most teens today listen to rap music
> for instance not because they like it but because it is part of their
> culture, that is, to be accepted you must like it. If opera were as "in" as
> rap then young audiences would flock to it but not necessarily like it. Even
> so, I doubt that as well because to understand opera, you must sit down and
> listen following a libretto preferably the first time. It takes time and
> effort, something young audiences are not up to.
It looks like, for you, opera is only, or almost only, for the singing.
It ain't.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> I hardly doubt that. If you listen to rock in your teens (I never did
> :-) it is very unlikely you will ever like opera. Bad state starts early
> and it sticks.
> Now seriously, I really doubt the argument that we must do these crazy
> productions or DVDs like the one for Anna Netrebko to entice young
> audiences. This is all baloney, opera is usually like love at first site,
> you either get it or you never will. Most teens today listen to rap music
> for instance not because they like it but because it is part of their
> culture, that is, to be accepted you must like it. If opera were as "in"
> as rap then young audiences would flock to it but not necessarily like
> it. Even so, I doubt that as well because to understand opera, you must
> sit down and listen following a libretto preferably the first time. It
> takes time and effort, something young audiences are not up to.
Young people listen to what they listen to (rap, pop, alternative rock,
whatever) for two reasons only: 1) They have been told to do so, by their
peers and/or by the marketers; and 2) They are obedient.
Nightingale
> Now seriously, I really doubt the argument that we must do these crazy
> productions or DVDs like the one for Anna Netrebko to entice young
> audiences. This is all baloney, opera is usually like love at first site,
> you either get it or you never will.
Why do you say that?
> Most teens today listen to rap music
> for instance not because they like it but because it is part of their
> culture, that is, to be accepted you must like it. If opera were as "in" as
> rap then young audiences would flock to it but not necessarily like it.
So what makes (c)rap music "in" and opera not?
> Even
> so, I doubt that as well because to understand opera, you must sit down and
> listen following a libretto preferably the first time.
Why? People don't listen to rock and rap following the lyrics, and even
though they are supposedly singing in English, a lot of it is not any
more comprehensible than opera.
Also, understanding opera is a lot more than just following a libretto.
Have you ever attended an opera?
> It takes time and
> effort, something young audiences are not up to.
Don't sell young people short - they take the time and effort to do a
lot of things that are at least as challenging as listening to opera.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
That's because "some" (but far too few) innovative directors
actually take the trouble to learn the music and the plot,
before they apply their own "slant" to the performance.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> It looks like, for you, opera is only, or almost only, for the singing.
> It ain't.
Sez who? (If what you say were true, opera could not stand
on its own without its visual accouterments, but it most
clearly does in "live" concert performances as well as
innumerable audio recordings.)
Nightingale
Try to imagine any of Wagner's operas without the orchestra. Opera is
not only, or even almost only, the singing.
Peter T. Daniels
Concert performances of operas are insufferable.
Richard Loeb
stage - not for recordings, not for the concert hall - but for a stage,
audience, proscenium and the rest of it. You can certainly enjoy opera on
records but it is hardly the experience of seeing it live. Richard
"Nightingale" <sin...@yorku.ca> wrote in message
news:42753d90$0$79460$1472...@news.sunsite.dk...
Brendan R. Wehrung
"Sergio da Silva" (sergio...@gmail.com) writes:
> I hardly doubt that. If you listen to rock in your teens (I never did :-) it
> is very unlikely you will ever like opera. Bad state starts early and it
> sticks.
> Now seriously, I really doubt the argument that we must do these crazy
> productions or DVDs like the one for Anna Netrebko to entice young
> audiences. This is all baloney, opera is usually like love at first site,
> you either get it or you never will. Most teens today listen to rap music
> for instance not because they like it but because it is part of their
> culture, that is, to be accepted you must like it. If opera were as "in" as
> rap then young audiences would flock to it but not necessarily like it. Even
> so, I doubt that as well because to understand opera, you must sit down and
> listen following a libretto preferably the first time. It takes time and
> effort, something young audiences are not up to.
I don't know about that. One of the attractions of opera is the ability
to experience impossibly large emotional responses, which is what rock
concerts often aim at. What the rock audience lacks is patience, to
follow a musical expression through development to a comclusion, hopefully
in aid of and emphasizing action on stage. The sometimes silly plots of
opera are no thinner than the premices some video games, but the action is
slower. Anybody who appreciates a well-produced play is a potential opera
fan.
Brendan
> "La Donna Mobile" <ladonn...@REMOVEbrixton.fsworld.co.uk> wrote in
> message news:d515a7$bll$1...@nwrdmz02.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> Yeah, but this is the 21st century. The opera audience of the future is
>> the same audience that has grown up on twenty years of pornographic shock
>> rock videos. It's about time people understand that when rock is pushing
>> the envelope right through Satan's letter box, opera has to keep up.
>> Because, if you think about it, a lot of rock videos are truly great
>> pieces of art accompanying utterly disposable music. The challenge is to
>> produce the ultimate unbroadcastable shock opera video to the most
>> shocking music - something like Tristan und Isolde which would just leave
>> the Christina Aguileras and Prodigys of the rock world looking like
>> absolute beginners.
>>
>> Proud Clarion wrote:
>>
>>> Read almost any review of an opera performance these days, whether
>>>in regular media or the specialized publications devoted to opera, and
>>>you'll see paragraph after paragraph describing the staging concept,
>>>the sets, the costumes. And at the very end -- oh, yes, there is brief
>>>mention of the fact that there were SINGERS involved in this
>>>performance.
>>>
>>>PC
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
>> http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
>
>
--
Rodger Whitlock
<oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
> How does the Gemini release of "The Seasons" compare with the SOMM, which I
> recently obtained from Berkshire?
I have both. Judging from the notes, they're not the same transfer
(different engineers credited with the remastering), but for the life
of me I can't hear any significant difference.
The Somm issue has a libretto, the Gemini doesn't.
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, BC, Canada
to send email, change atlantic to pacific
and invalid to net
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
> On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:57:57 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> How does the Gemini release of "The Seasons" compare with the SOMM,
>> which I recently obtained from Berkshire?
>
> I have both. Judging from the notes, they're not the same transfer
> (different engineers credited with the remastering), but for the life
> of me I can't hear any significant difference.
>
> The Somm issue has a libretto, the Gemini doesn't.
In that case, (descending fourth) HAW HAW!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Nightingale wrote:
But it stands alone quite well as a solely auditory
experience, right? (Which was the point I was making.)
....In fact, some of the Wagnerian performances I've
encountered would be much better off, had they been sung in
concert, minus the staging!
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
In YOUR opinion - many of us beg to differ! (Despite your
apparent perception of yourself as arbiter, your opinion is
only one among many.)
Peter T. Daniels
> In YOUR opinion - many of us beg to differ! (Despite your
> apparent perception of yourself as arbiter, your opinion is
> only one among many.)
Are you going to revive that thread about how every posting should be
preceded by "in my opinion"? What else would a posting about an
evaluation be?
Richard Loeb
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:d55o0...@news1.newsguy.com...
Well yes, but thats kind of like throwing the baby out with the bath water -
I must agree though that some of that bath water has been awfully dirty
lately Cheers Richard
>
capa0...@aol.com
No reason they need to be. Sometimes the talent available for such
performances (on the stage or in the pit or both) is not of the
highest standard. But there is no inherent reason that a concert
performance of an opera needs to be dreary.
Would you take the position that a vision-impaired person could not
derive much satisfaction from opera?
Pat
capa0...@aol.com
I hardly doubt that. If you listen to rock in your teens (I never did
:-) it
is very unlikely you will ever like opera. Bad state starts early and
it
sticks.
=====================
Well, if you're correct, opera in the US has no future, because it is
almost impossible to find a young person who has not been heavily
exposed to 'popular' music.
But I don't think you are right. I didn't listen to classical music at
all until I was in my mid-twenties, and I didn't care much for opera
until I was nearly forty. Surely I'm not the only one-time Beatles &
Neil Diamond fan who was/is willing to give something a little less
accessible a try?
Pat
Matthew Fields
Opera is practically custom-made to be turned into music video.
It's a market waiting to be tapped.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Vincent Ventrone
> On the other hand, _some_ innovative directors make sitting through yet
> another Butterfly, Traviata, or Tannhäuser less of a chore.
I think the real problem is that there hasn't been an opera composed in the
last 50 years that anyone wants to hear twice. That's why we keep repeating
the same corpus of 18th & 19th century works & producers are going to
desperate lengths to make these works seem fresh & try to braoden their
appeal. On a related note, some orchestral conductors try to mix in a new
work from time to time, but I must admit I've not heard anything worth
repeating. Ever since "classical" composers decided to dispense with melody
they've alienated most of the audience.
Vincent Ventrone
> - Sir Thomas Beecham
I thought it was *Morris* dancing???
Peter T. Daniels
I sat in front of a "vision-deprived" person during a performance of
*Applause* with Lauren Bacall at the Palace Theatre. The
"vision-deprived" person's companion described everything that was going
on in great and audible detail. I'm sure it was very satisfying.
Nightingale
>
>
> Nightingale wrote:
>
>> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> It looks like, for you, opera is only, or almost only, for the singing.
>>>> It ain't.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sez who? (If what you say were true, opera could not stand on its
>>> own without its visual accouterments, but it most clearly does in
>>> "live" concert performances as well as innumerable audio recordings.)
>>>
>>
>> Try to imagine any of Wagner's operas without the orchestra. Opera is
>> not only, or even almost only, the singing.
>
>
> But it stands alone quite well as a solely auditory experience, right?
Some are OK, but decent staging adds a lot.
> (Which was the point I was making.) ....In fact, some of the Wagnerian
> performances I've encountered would be much better off, had they been
> sung in concert, minus the staging!
>
Some would be better minus the singing!
Brendan R. Wehrung
An article over the weekend makes the same case, only about modern
American opera (for American audiences--I don't know how Adams etc. is
received in France):
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE: New American opera comes of age with an
explosion of accessible homegrown works, including the MOT's 'Margaret
Garner'
May 1, 2005
BY MARK STRYKER
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
During the 1970s, American opera fell into an ice age. The number of
annual premieres by native composers froze in the single digits, and there
was no more effective way to kill a work at the box office than to market
it as a new opera.
The Premiere
The world premiere of "Margaret Garner" at the Detroit Opera House
promises to be one of the biggest cultural events of the year in metro
Detroit. The story, inspired by a real-life fugitive slave tale, was
written by acclaimed author Toni Morrison, and one of the opera world's
biggest stars -- Denyce Graves -- is in the cast.
"I always used to think it was ironic that when a musical opened on
Broadway it was always sold as a 'new musical by so-and-so,' " says David
Gockley, the progressive general director of the Houston Grand Opera.
"That was an anathema in opera."
How times have changed.
In the last 20 years -- and especially since 1990 -- American opera has
undergone a revolutionary growth spurt. Even aficionados have trouble
keeping up with the bustle these days. Between 1990 and 2000, more than
200 operas premiered at North American companies, most by U.S. composers
in U.S. theaters, according to Opera America, a service organization in
Washington, D.C.
With "Margaret Garner," which will be given its world premiere Saturday at
the Detroit Opera House, the Michigan Opera Theatre becomes the latest
American company to enter the contemporary sweepstakes. Composer Richard
Danielpour and author Toni Morrison, inspired by a true story, have
fashioned a tale about a fugitive slave who kills her children to save
them from a return to bondage.
The $2-million production is the MOT's first world premiere since
"Washington Square" by Thomas Pasatieri in 1976.
"Margaret Garner" is the third high-profile American premiere in recent
months, right on the heels of Mark Adamo's "Lysistrata" (after
Aristophane's comedy), which opened in Houston in March, and William
Bolcom's "A Wedding" (after Robert Altman's film), which opened in Chicago
in December. These works, with their audience-friendly scores, did boffo
box office.
For those who always claimed that American opera houses would never
nurture a native repertory as long as they remained overly beholden to the
Mt. Rushmore of European heroes -- Mozart, Verdi, Puccini and Wagner --
the rush of contemporary American works is the most significant
declaration of Yankee operatic independence since the 1930s-50s.
"What is unique about the years since 1990 is the ubiquity of new works
across the country at companies large and small, " says Marc Scorca,
president of Opera America. "New works have become a part of the way we do
business. It's wonderful these days to go to a new work and stand in the
lobby at intermission and hear informed comparative discussion about other
new American works."
Experts cite many reasons for the recent flowering of American opera,
beginning with a crucial pendulum shift toward less foreboding and more
melodic composing styles in classical music. The new operas also tend to
rely on well-known plays, movies, novels and newspaper headlines as source
material.
Typical are Andre Previn's "A Streetcar Named Desire" (1998), Jake
Heggie's "Dead Man Walking" (2000) and John Adams' "Nixon in China"
(1987). All arrived with accessible, eclectic scores and familiar stories
from America's collective unconscious. They also had the benefit of
built-in marketing hooks.
Contributing to the renaissance has been a parallel surge in opera's
overall popularity because of the use of projected English translations
above the stage, as well as opera's multimedia aesthetic, which has found
a simpatico audience among the pop-culture set, a group that craves the
latest music, movies and theater. The new opera boom can be felt
everywhere, from the leading companies in New York, Chicago, San Francisco
and Houston, to such regional companies as Opera Omaha in Nebraska and the
Pine Mountain Music Festival in Michigan's Upper Peninsula.
Not all of the recent operas have been hits. MOT's earlier commission,
"Washington Square," vanished almost without a trace. But the issue is
less whether Opera A or Opera B thrills the masses or enters the pantheon
than whether there are enough new works in currency to inject a sense of
vitality and adventure in the opera house.
"If you have enough of a creative churn going on, you will eventually get
masterpieces that enter the canon," says Scorca.
Some observers worry that the fruits of the go-go years aren't necessarily
trickling down to more challenging and experimental composers like the
brilliant conceptualist Robert Ashley or the rugged but communicative
modernist Hugo Weisgall (1912-97). The recent economic downturn and shaky
recovery have also begun to slow the pace of new operas in the pipeline.
Industry leaders are deathly afraid of the potential fallout from another
downturn.
But the consensus is that American opera has turned an aesthetic corner:
"I don't think we're in a golden age in terms of the evolution of the art,
but we are in terms of relevance to the general society," says David
DiChiera, MOT general director. "There is a recognition that people will
go and see these works if they have artistic value, relevance and are
exciting theater."
MOT's 2003 production of "Dead Man Walking," which debuted three years
earlier at the San Francisco Opera, proves the point. The opera, based on
the book with the same title about the death penalty by Sister Helen
Prejean that inspired the popular film, sold almost exactly the same
amount of tickets as that season's staples "Il Trovatore" and "Die
Fledermaus." MOT officials say that "Margaret Garner" has already outsold
"Dead Man Walking" with a week to go before opening night.
The buzz surrounding the world premiere, the appearance of star
mezzo-soprano Denyce Graves and Morrison's celebrity are all manna to
MOT's marketing staff.
The first stirrings of the nationalist muse in American opera came in the
1930s with works like Virgil Thomson's "Four Saints in Three Acts" and
George Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess." American opera expanded in the 1950s
with works by Gian Carlo Menotti, Douglas Moore, Carlisle Floyd and
Leonard Bernstein.
But in the 1960s, the field fell dormant. Classical composition was
dominated by a high modernism that found its signature sound in angular
dissonance and atonality. The public blanched, composers retreated into
academia and, while the number of American opera companies was expanding
exponentially, the repertoire was stuck in neutral.
Things began to change in the mid-'70s, when some composers began to
re-embrace traditional melody and harmony and a nascent neo-romanticism
began to evolve. Meanwhile, minimalism, whose pulsating simplicity was the
antithesis of academic modernism, took root in the music of Philip Glass
and Steve Reich. By the 1980s and '90s, postmodernists were writing in
unabashedly eclectic languages and drawing on contemporary vernacular
sources like rock, jazz and pop.
A watershed came in 1976, when "Einstein on the Beach," a collaboration of
Glass and experimental theater director Robert Wilson, became a cause
celebre after selling out two performances at New York's Metropolitan
Opera, which had been rented for the event.
A few years earlier, David Gockley became head of the Houston Grand Opera
at age 27 and began to champion tonal American works by Carlisle Floyd and
others. Under Gockley's leadership, Houston became the most important and
influential champion of American opera in the country. The company has
premiered 33 works during his tenure, among them John Adams' "Nixon in
China," Leonard Bernstein's "A Quiet Place," Adamo's "Little Women,"
Michael Daugherty's "Jackie O," Meredith Monk's "Atlas" and several pieces
by Floyd, including "Willie Stark."
For Gockley, the turning point has been composers' willingness to reach
out to audiences. "What has driven opera over the years has been the
public, and you have to look toward the public as to what it likes," he
says. "The more skillful composers get, the more liberties they can take
with the public in terms of what the public is willing to accept."
American opera got a further boost in the early 1980s, when DiChiera, then
president of Opera America, created a program to fund new works. The
National Endowment for the Arts and other sources provided similar
support, and the resources encouraged opera companies to take greater
risks. In 1987, "Nixon in China" became another landmark when, after its
Houston debut, it became the first of the new wave of American operas to
be embraced in Europe.
DiChiera has wanted to program another world premiere in Detroit ever
since MOT opened the opera house in 1996. But the company was so consumed
with fund-raising to pay for the building that it has taken a while for
the pieces to fall into place.
Danielpour and Morrison fit comfortably into the contemporary zeitgeist.
He's a lyrical eclectic known for pleasing audiences and singers; she's a
Nobel Prize winner with celebrity cache. The story is based on the same
fugitive slave tale that inspired Morrison's novel "Beloved." To ease the
financial burden, MOT enlisted Cincinnati Opera and Opera Company of
Philadelphia as co-commissioners -- another industry trend.
Despite the dramatic gains, Gockley says American opera still has a long
way to go to reach parity with its European counterpart. "Economics are an
issue," he says.
"I've tried to get composers to keep the length of operas within 2 1/2
hours to 2 hours and 45 minutes, to have just one intermission and to
orchestrate imaginatively so you can have orchestras of 26 to 30 pieces
sound good as opposed to having to employ a 19th-Century Wagnerian
orchestra. We have to think of different venues and electronic things like
video and audio that allow works to be conveyed over larger distances and
in different media."
Ultimately, Gockley, who is leaving Houston to become general director of
the San Francisco Opera in January, wants to see American companies
perform more new works and more revivals of operas composed within the
past 20-30 years. He'd like to see American operas make up 20 percent to
30 percent of the repertoire, and as the works get better he'd like to see
at least a 50-50 split between homegrown and imported works.
Those may sound like pipe dreams, but American opera is nowhere near the
long shot it was 30 years ago.
Contact MARK STRYKER at 313-222-6459 or str...@freepress.com.
--
Brendan R. Wehrung
If I may be forgiven for repeating the article, with which you may disagree:
(Can't say I'm an Danielpour fan and it may well be that you will dismiss
all "opera" written after 1990 as "not acceptable.")
Brendan
Peter T. Daniels
> An article over the weekend makes the same case, only about modern
> American opera (for American audiences--I don't know how Adams etc. is
> received in France):
>
> DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE: New American opera comes of age with an
> explosion of accessible homegrown works, including the MOT's 'Margaret
> Garner'
>
> May 1, 2005
> BY MARK STRYKER
> FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER
>
> During the 1970s, American opera fell into an ice age. The number of
> annual premieres by native composers froze in the single digits, and there
> was no more effective way to kill a work at the box office than to market
> it as a new opera.
>
> The Premiere
> The world premiere of "Margaret Garner" at the Detroit Opera House
> promises to be one of the biggest cultural events of the year in metro
> Detroit. The story, inspired by a real-life fugitive slave tale, was
> written by acclaimed author Toni Morrison, and one of the opera world's
> biggest stars -- Denyce Graves -- is in the cast.
Note that the composer isn't mentioned for three more paragraphs.
> "I always used to think it was ironic that when a musical opened on
> Broadway it was always sold as a 'new musical by so-and-so,' " says David
> Gockley, the progressive general director of the Houston Grand Opera.
> "That was an anathema in opera."
>
> How times have changed.
>
> In the last 20 years -- and especially since 1990 -- American opera has
> undergone a revolutionary growth spurt. Even aficionados have trouble
> keeping up with the bustle these days. Between 1990 and 2000, more than
> 200 operas premiered at North American companies, most by U.S. composers
> in U.S. theaters, according to Opera America, a service organization in
> Washington, D.C.
>
> With "Margaret Garner," which will be given its world premiere Saturday at
> the Detroit Opera House, the Michigan Opera Theatre becomes the latest
> American company to enter the contemporary sweepstakes. Composer Richard
> Danielpour and author Toni Morrison, inspired by a true story, have
> fashioned a tale about a fugitive slave who kills her children to save
> them from a return to bondage.
Oh, gawd, Danielpour? What a waste of two million dollars!
> The $2-million production is the MOT's first world premiere since
> "Washington Square" by Thomas Pasatieri in 1976.
Which (_vide infra_) was apparently nothing to brag about.
> "Margaret Garner" is the third high-profile American premiere in recent
> months, right on the heels of Mark Adamo's "Lysistrata" (after
> Aristophane's comedy), which opened in Houston in March, and William
> Bolcom's "A Wedding" (after Robert Altman's film), which opened in Chicago
> in December. These works, with their audience-friendly scores, did boffo
> box office.
I don't know about HGO, but Lyric Opera of Chicago _always_ sells
102%-108% of their tickets, regardless of what they're producing.
> For those who always claimed that American opera houses would never
> nurture a native repertory as long as they remained overly beholden to the
> Mt. Rushmore of European heroes -- Mozart, Verdi, Puccini and Wagner --
> the rush of contemporary American works is the most significant
> declaration of Yankee operatic independence since the 1930s-50s.
>
> "What is unique about the years since 1990 is the ubiquity of new works
> across the country at companies large and small, " says Marc Scorca,
> president of Opera America. "New works have become a part of the way we do
> business. It's wonderful these days to go to a new work and stand in the
> lobby at intermission and hear informed comparative discussion about other
> new American works."
>
> Experts cite many reasons for the recent flowering of American opera,
> beginning with a crucial pendulum shift toward less foreboding and more
> melodic composing styles in classical music. The new operas also tend to
> rely on well-known plays, movies, novels and newspaper headlines as source
> material.
>
> Typical are Andre Previn's "A Streetcar Named Desire" (1998), Jake
> Heggie's "Dead Man Walking" (2000) and John Adams' "Nixon in China"
> (1987). All arrived with accessible, eclectic scores and familiar stories
> from America's collective unconscious. They also had the benefit of
> built-in marketing hooks.
And at least two of them are crap. (I don't know anything about DMW.)
> Contributing to the renaissance has been a parallel surge in opera's
> overall popularity because of the use of projected English translations
> above the stage, as well as opera's multimedia aesthetic, which has found
> a simpatico audience among the pop-culture set, a group that craves the
> latest music, movies and theater. The new opera boom can be felt
> everywhere, from the leading companies in New York, Chicago, San Francisco
> and Houston, to such regional companies as Opera Omaha in Nebraska and the
> Pine Mountain Music Festival in Michigan's Upper Peninsula.
>
> Not all of the recent operas have been hits. MOT's earlier commission,
> "Washington Square," vanished almost without a trace. But the issue is
> less whether Opera A or Opera B thrills the masses or enters the pantheon
> than whether there are enough new works in currency to inject a sense of
> vitality and adventure in the opera house.
90% of everything is crap. (Anyone remember Theodore Sturgeon?)
> "If you have enough of a creative churn going on, you will eventually get
> masterpieces that enter the canon," says Scorca.
>
> Some observers worry that the fruits of the go-go years aren't necessarily
> trickling down to more challenging and experimental composers like the
> brilliant conceptualist Robert Ashley or the rugged but communicative
> modernist Hugo Weisgall (1912-97). The recent economic downturn and shaky
> recovery have also begun to slow the pace of new operas in the pipeline.
> Industry leaders are deathly afraid of the potential fallout from another
> downturn.
>
> But the consensus is that American opera has turned an aesthetic corner:
>
> "I don't think we're in a golden age in terms of the evolution of the art,
> but we are in terms of relevance to the general society," says David
> DiChiera, MOT general director. "There is a recognition that people will
> go and see these works if they have artistic value, relevance and are
> exciting theater."
>
> MOT's 2003 production of "Dead Man Walking," which debuted three years
> earlier at the San Francisco Opera, proves the point. The opera, based on
> the book with the same title about the death penalty by Sister Helen
> Prejean that inspired the popular film, sold almost exactly the same
> amount of tickets as that season's staples "Il Trovatore" and "Die
> Fledermaus." MOT officials say that "Margaret Garner" has already outsold
> "Dead Man Walking" with a week to go before opening night.
"amount of tickets"? tsk, tsk.
> The buzz surrounding the world premiere, the appearance of star
> mezzo-soprano Denyce Graves and Morrison's celebrity are all manna to
> MOT's marketing staff.
Right -- it's the libretto that makes the opera! Tell it to Boito.
> The first stirrings of the nationalist muse in American opera came in the
> 1930s with works like Virgil Thomson's "Four Saints in Three Acts" and
> George Gershwin's "Porgy and Bess." American opera expanded in the 1950s
> with works by Gian Carlo Menotti, Douglas Moore, Carlisle Floyd and
> Leonard Bernstein.
Leonard Bernstein?? His one opera was not from the 1950s and it was
crap. It incorporated his mini-whatever "Trouble in Tahiti," which is
hardly an opera. And why do we omit Copland?
> But in the 1960s, the field fell dormant. Classical composition was
> dominated by a high modernism that found its signature sound in angular
> dissonance and atonality. The public blanched, composers retreated into
> academia and, while the number of American opera companies was expanding
> exponentially, the repertoire was stuck in neutral.
>
> Things began to change in the mid-'70s, when some composers began to
> re-embrace traditional melody and harmony and a nascent neo-romanticism
> began to evolve. Meanwhile, minimalism, whose pulsating simplicity was the
> antithesis of academic modernism, took root in the music of Philip Glass
> and Steve Reich. By the 1980s and '90s, postmodernists were writing in
> unabashedly eclectic languages and drawing on contemporary vernacular
> sources like rock, jazz and pop.
>
> A watershed came in 1976, when "Einstein on the Beach," a collaboration of
> Glass and experimental theater director Robert Wilson, became a cause
> celebre after selling out two performances at New York's Metropolitan
> Opera, which had been rented for the event.
They were at the Metropolitan Opera House, not by the Metropolitan
Opera.
> A few years earlier, David Gockley became head of the Houston Grand Opera
> at age 27 and began to champion tonal American works by Carlisle Floyd and
> others. Under Gockley's leadership, Houston became the most important and
> influential champion of American opera in the country. The company has
> premiered 33 works during his tenure, among them John Adams' "Nixon in
> China," Leonard Bernstein's "A Quiet Place," Adamo's "Little Women,"
> Michael Daugherty's "Jackie O," Meredith Monk's "Atlas" and several pieces
> by Floyd, including "Willie Stark."
So they had money but little taste.
> For Gockley, the turning point has been composers' willingness to reach
> out to audiences. "What has driven opera over the years has been the
> public, and you have to look toward the public as to what it likes," he
> says. "The more skillful composers get, the more liberties they can take
> with the public in terms of what the public is willing to accept."
>
> American opera got a further boost in the early 1980s, when DiChiera, then
> president of Opera America, created a program to fund new works. The
> National Endowment for the Arts and other sources provided similar
> support, and the resources encouraged opera companies to take greater
> risks. In 1987, "Nixon in China" became another landmark when, after its
> Houston debut, it became the first of the new wave of American operas to
> be embraced in Europe.
>
> DiChiera has wanted to program another world premiere in Detroit ever
> since MOT opened the opera house in 1996. But the company was so consumed
> with fund-raising to pay for the building that it has taken a while for
> the pieces to fall into place.
>
> Danielpour and Morrison fit comfortably into the contemporary zeitgeist.
> He's a lyrical eclectic known for pleasing audiences and singers; she's a
> Nobel Prize winner with celebrity cache. The story is based on the same
> fugitive slave tale that inspired Morrison's novel "Beloved." To ease the
> financial burden, MOT enlisted Cincinnati Opera and Opera Company of
> Philadelphia as co-commissioners -- another industry trend.
Funny, he still hasn't mentioned Corigliano's Ghost of Versailles, a New
York - Chicago co-commission, and perhaps the most successful of all.
> Despite the dramatic gains, Gockley says American opera still has a long
> way to go to reach parity with its European counterpart. "Economics are an
> issue," he says.
>
> "I've tried to get composers to keep the length of operas within 2 1/2
> hours to 2 hours and 45 minutes, to have just one intermission and to
> orchestrate imaginatively so you can have orchestras of 26 to 30 pieces
> sound good as opposed to having to employ a 19th-Century Wagnerian
> orchestra. We have to think of different venues and electronic things like
> video and audio that allow works to be conveyed over larger distances and
> in different media."
What idiocy.
> Ultimately, Gockley, who is leaving Houston to become general director of
> the San Francisco Opera in January, wants to see American companies
> perform more new works and more revivals of operas composed within the
> past 20-30 years. He'd like to see American operas make up 20 percent to
> 30 percent of the repertoire, and as the works get better he'd like to see
> at least a 50-50 split between homegrown and imported works.
Well, I suppose Gockley in SF is better than Gelb in NY. At least we'll
still have City Opera.
> Those may sound like pipe dreams, but American opera is nowhere near the
> long shot it was 30 years ago.
>
> Contact MARK STRYKER at 313-222-6459 or str...@freepress.com.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
bisectional2004
>
> I don't know about HGO, but Lyric Opera of Chicago _always_ sells
> 102%-108% of their tickets, regardless of what they're producing.
>
How do you sell 108% of your tickets, Daniels?
Raving Loonie
By providing rush & shove seating AND assuming that less than 92.5% of
the ticket holders show up.
IMO, very operatic.
Peter T. Daniels
Lyric Opera does not have rush seating, and there is almost never a
vacant seat in the house.
What would "shove" be?
Peter T. Daniels
Because subscribers sometimes have to return tickets to the box office.
They are not repaid for them, and those seats are quickly sold to
non-subscription-holders, Tholen.
bisectional2004
Still having attribution problems, Daniels?
Nightingale
I've heard of rush seating, but what is shove seating?
> IMO, very operatic.
>
Why?
Raving Loonie
O.K. so I am being a bit melodramatic, here.
... full of emotion. Suits opera.
For some; Matthew Tepper for example (See http://tinyurl.com/7rw2c);
it's perhaps O.K. to be emotional in classical music (???) but 'No sex,
please ...'
Sort of like how classical muscians dressed in formal attire are
'paragons of virtue' <snigger> ... or should that be <frown> and
<snigger NOT!> ?
So, what do you think of those "Faggotti", Nightingale ?
... http://tinyurl.com/cwoue
Are you a prude Canadian, eh?
What is th 'secret' life of a professional classical musician like?
Are there groupies?
As for emotionally <brain dead> musicians, it is EXACTLY why I hate
Julian Bream and am passionate about Hesperion XX.
It IS Bream who plays precisely <devoid> of emotion like an automaton,
isn't it? My memory is slipping ...
IMO, Sex could salvage the paying public for classical music. ... It
works with other products.
Why not?
I liked Segovia
Nightingale
>
> O.K. so I am being a bit melodramatic, here.
> ... full of emotion. Suits opera.
Some more than others. Not all opera is melodramatic.
>
> For some; Matthew Tepper for example (See http://tinyurl.com/7rw2c);
> it's perhaps O.K. to be emotional in classical music (???)
But it can be overdone.
> but 'No sex,
> please ...'
>
I think his objections to those performers were music, but I have not
heard them, so I don't know if they are any good. I have noticed that
some performers - classical & other - seem to be marketed based on image
rather than music, which I don't like much.
> Sort of like how classical muscians dressed in formal attire are
> 'paragons of virtue' <snigger> ... or should that be <frown> and
> <snigger NOT!> ?
>
What does formal attire have to do with virtue? Classical musicians I
know are no more virtuous than any other group.
> So, what do you think of those "Faggotti", Nightingale ?
> ... http://tinyurl.com/cwoue
>
Bassoon is a nice sounding instrument - I like them almost as much as I
like oboes :-)
> Are you a prude Canadian, eh?
> What is th 'secret' life of a professional classical musician like?
If we published it in the newsgroup, it would not be secret anymore.
> Are there groupies?
>
Some have had groupies.
> As for emotionally <brain dead> musicians, it is EXACTLY why I hate
> Julian Bream and am passionate about Hesperion XX.
>
I am more likely to be put off by over-emotional & melodramatic
performers. I have not listened to Bream in decades, but remember
thinking he was OK.
> It IS Bream who plays precisely <devoid> of emotion like an automaton,
> isn't it? My memory is slipping ...
>
> IMO, Sex could salvage the paying public for classical music. ... It
> works with other products.
>
> Why not?
>
Why?
> I liked Segovia
>
Raving Loonie
... Interesting response, Nightingale.
It would seem that <emotion> is easily added to other commodities to
improve their value. However, when it comes to classical music, there
are numerous technical obstacles to surmount, beforehand.
For example, Baroque music performed 'O.K.' sounds absolutely awful to
me ... Like a herd of thunderous elephants. Achieving sufficient
synchronization of the musicians at the outset seems to require skill
(?)
First one needs to gain very considerable skill to achieve musicality.
Only then can one add value by 'goosing' it.
Using emotion to cover up bad performance sounds <as it is> dot-dot-dot
Is this what you mean?
tho...@antispam.ham
Suffering from attribution problems, Daniels?
Raving Loonie
> Raving Loonie wrote:
> >
> > O.K. so I am being a bit melodramatic, here.
> > ... full of emotion. Suits opera.
>
> Some more than others. Not all opera is melodramatic.
>
> >
> > For some; Matthew Tepper for example (See
http://tinyurl.com/7rw2c);
> > it's perhaps O.K. to be emotional in classical music (???)
>
> But it can be overdone.
>
> > but 'No sex,
> > please ...'
> >
>
> I think his objections to those performers were music, but I have not
> heard them, so I don't know if they are any good. I have noticed
that
> some performers - classical & other - seem to be marketed based on
image
> rather than music, which I don't like much.
>
> > Sort of like how classical muscians dressed in formal attire are
> > 'paragons of virtue' <snigger> ... or should that be <frown> and
> > <snigger NOT!> ?
> >
>
Liona Boyd ?
> What does formal attire have to do with virtue? Classical musicians
I
> know are no more virtuous than any other group.
>
> > So, what do you think of those "Faggotti", Nightingale ?
> > ... http://tinyurl.com/cwoue
> >
>
> Bassoon is a nice sounding instrument - I like them almost as much as
I
> like oboes :-)
>
> > Are you a prude Canadian, eh?
> > What is th 'secret' life of a professional classical musician like?
>
> If we published it in the newsgroup, it would not be secret anymore.
>
> > Are there groupies?
> >
>
> Some have had groupies.
>
> > As for emotionally <brain dead> musicians, it is EXACTLY why I hate
> > Julian Bream and am passionate about Hesperion XX.
> >
>
> I am more likely to be put off by over-emotional & melodramatic
> performers. I have not listened to Bream in decades, but remember
> thinking he was OK.
O.K. ?
I felt like I was listening to a mechanical monster emphasised by
the void of emotion.
Ever listen to a computer controlled piano, play the same piece 20
times over?
... It was very weird for me. ... Eventualy, I found it very
irritating.
It was an 'expectation' type or irritance ... After a few listenings, I
picked up on and expected the <exact same> nuance ...
Has anyone else experienced this?
Art Deco
What does this have to do with classical music, Tholenator(tm)?
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EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
capa0...@aol.com wrote:
I think everyone feels affection for the "pop" music they
grew up with, however their tastes may grow and mature in
later years. Personally, I intensely dislike "rock" and its
successors, but I'm sure I'd feel differently if I were of a
younger generation. I'm also sure I'd still like opera, and
still have the ambition to sing it professionally, as I had
when I was young.
>
> Pat
>
Matthew B. Tepper
caused the following letters to be typed in
news:d59bi...@news1.newsguy.com:
Yes and no. I've been making a point over the past few years of seeking
out and rehearing pop, novelty, and children's songs from my childhood
which I know that I liked. In doing so, I've also been re-encountering the
contemporaneous rock 'n' roll, which I disliked then (and still do).
I've gotten some insights on the formation of my musical taste, and what
I've noticed is that these songs I liked seemed to have engaging and varied
accompaniments, attractive harmonies, and construction that wasn't just as
simple as can be. In short, they were much more *interesting* (and not so
emptily rhythm-driven) as the rock stuff, which is probably why my tastes
moved so early, and firmly, and permanently, to classical and jazz. (I
also enjoy trad folk music, bluegrass, and musical theater, but figure
those out for yourself.)
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Matthew Fields
>work from time to time, but I must admit I've not heard anything worth
>repeating. Ever since "classical" composers decided to dispense with melody
>they've alienated most of the audience.
When was that, exactly-- 1604? (cf d'Artusi: della Imperfecciones
della Musica Moderna)
Matthew Fields
At one point there was a project for my chamber symphony "Sages of Chelm"
to become an opera in American Sign Language.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <4276a669$0$79452$1472...@news.sunsite.dk>,
> Nightingale <sin...@yorku.ca> wrote:
> >EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
> >> Nightingale wrote:
> >>> EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque) wrote:
> >>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>>> It looks like, for you, opera is only, or almost only, for the singing.
> >>>>> It ain't.
> >>>> Sez who? (If what you say were true, opera could not stand on its
> >>>> own without its visual accouterments, but it most clearly does in
> >>>> "live" concert performances as well as innumerable audio recordings.)
> >>> Try to imagine any of Wagner's operas without the orchestra. Opera is
> >>> not only, or even almost only, the singing.
> >> But it stands alone quite well as a solely auditory experience, right?
> >Some are OK, but decent staging adds a lot.
> >> (Which was the point I was making.) ....In fact, some of the Wagnerian
> >> performances I've encountered would be much better off, had they been
> >> sung in concert, minus the staging!
> >Some would be better minus the singing!
>
> At one point there was a project for my chamber symphony "Sages of Chelm"
> to become an opera in American Sign Language.
OTOH, an opera _without_ singing does seem to be stretching the term a
bit.
Matthew Fields
Oh, it wasn't going to be an oprea without signing, by no maens!
Nightingale
LOL!