What does 'assai' mean?
Bill Carroll
Thanks very much.
bill carroll, toronto
David Cleary
: When a music movement is listed as 'allegro assai' what does 'assai'
: mean? Thanks very much.
It can mean either "very" or "rather," with the former probably
being more common.
Dave
Randy Poe
> When a music movement is listed as 'allegro assai' what does 'assai' mean?
> Thanks very much.
"assai" = French "assez" = enough.
"allegro assai" = fast enough... keep it moving but not
"come un pipistrello fuori dall' inferno" = like a bat
out of hell (with apologies to PDQ Bach).
- Randy
Larry Rinkel
news:apuph...@enews1.newsguy.com...
I would like to hear confirmation from a native Italian speaker, but
although I believe "assai" can mean "enough" in some contexts, it also means
"very" and this is what it conveys to a musician as a tempo marking.
("Allegro," BTW, really means "lively" in the sense of "cheerful" in
Italian, though as a tempo marking it means "lively" in the sense of
"fast.")
And so: "allegro assai" or "allegro molto" = very fast.
Mike Byrne
"allegro assai" means "fast enough"
I've always heard it interpreted as "fast enough to be quick, but not so
fast that it's bloody crazy"
Larry Rinkel
news:3dc33...@139.142.118.11...
Larry Rinkel
news:Xns92BA849...@62.153.159.134...
> "Bill Carroll" <lv...@sympatico.ca> wrote in
> news:39Bw9.13020$qD2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
>
> > When a music movement is listed as 'allegro assai' what does
> > 'assai' mean? Thanks very much.
>
> I became a bit insecure when I read the thread and looked it up at
> www.xrefer.com.
>
> <quote>
> assai (It.)
> assai (It.) very; allegro assai , very quick.
> The Penguin Dictionary of Music
>
>
> Assai (It.)
> Assai (It.) Very, extremely (formerly same as Fr. assez , but
> respective meanings have changed). ...
> Oxford Dictionary of Music
> </quote>
>
> Regards
> --
> "No one has explained what the leopard
> was seeking at that altitude."
In this exchange from Verdi's Falstaff, Alice is not saying her husband Ford
is jealous enough, but that he's very jealous:
MEG: Ford è geloso?
ALICE: Assai!
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Larry Rinkel" <LRi...@optonline.nete> wrote in
> news:2oQw9.25202$S44....@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
>
> > In this exchange from Verdi's Falstaff, Alice is not saying her
> > husband Ford is jealous enough, but that he's very jealous:
> >
> > ALICE: Assai!
>
> That's my opinion too. Still, I'm curious how many people will argue
> that Alice *might* be saying "jealous enough" ;-) .
It would certainly fit better if you were singing in English!
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Marcello Penso
LRi...@optonline.nete says...
but that's a rare use, and is certainly not the use in music. It is
actually a fairly literate term and the closest equivalence in English
might be something like 'an abundance of'.
Marcello
Marcello Penso
> "Larry Rinkel" <LRi...@optonline.nete> wrote in
> news:2oQw9.25202$S44....@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net:
>
> > husband Ford is jealous enough, but that he's very jealous:
> >
> > MEG: Ford è geloso?
> > ALICE: Assai!
>
> that Alice *might* be saying "jealous enough" ;-) .
>
>
No Italian would argue that. She's basically saying 'A lot!'. 'Greatly!'
might be a better translation in this case, because the single use of
'assai' makes it emphatic in both a quantitive and qualitive sense.
'La amo assai!' could be easily understood as 'I love her immensely!'
Marcello
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
> news:3DC453...@worldnet.att.net:
>
> > Andante teneramente wrote:
>
> >> That's my opinion too. Still, I'm curious how many people will
> >> argue that Alice *might* be saying "jealous enough" ;-) .
> >
> > It would certainly fit better if you were singing in English!
>
Nope! (*Falstaff* isn't a "Top Ten" opera that would get into those
turn-of-the-century libretto collections that tended to provide singing
translations. You'd probably need something like a Schirmer vocal
score.)
> What does Alice
> sing there? Would "a lot" be bad style?
Definitely.
> "Like mad" is a bit
> exaggerated, but not impossible, when I think of Ford's visit at the
> Osteria della Giarrettiera and his behaviour in front of the
> paravent in II/2.
But you don't want to put that vowel on a note written for an ah-vowel.
> My booklet has "Very!", but judging from other passages it isn't a
> singing translation.
Archer070
>"Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy! Holy!
Holy! Holy! Holy!"
>
>From: Andante teneramente db...@gmx.de
Go on. Quote the rest. Double dare you.
As to the general topic -- What's the difference between "allegro molto" and
"allegro di molto"?
Oscar
Assai = assez (Fr.) = asaz (Sp.) means two things:
1) quite. Is Ford jealous? Quite! / Assai turbato = quite embarrassed.
2) enough. Assai! = That's enough! / Assez les gosses! = That's
enough, boys!
In this second sense, it's a synonime for "abbastanza" in Italian, or
"bastante" in Spanish, this one far more used than "asaz":
Abbiamo abbastanza munizioni = We have enough ammunitions.
Comiste bastante carne = you ate quite a lot of meat.
This last sense is what you find similar to "much", "very",
"immensely", etc., but it is not the main sense of "assai", nor doest
it mean such a thing in the examples of Italian expressions that you
all gave. The similarity is given especially in Spanish, not in
Italian.
"Allegro di molto" is a slightly emphasyzing indication on "allegro
molto", almost a colloquial expression and not too correct. It means a
very expressive allegro, with fiber, a sensual one, while "allegro
molto" means simply a careful cantabile allegro, a sensitive one.
Randy Poe
> In this second sense, it's a synonime for "abbastanza" in Italian, or
> "bastante" in Spanish, this one far more used than "asaz":
>
> Abbiamo abbastanza munizioni = We have enough ammunitions.
>
> Comiste bastante carne = you ate quite a lot of meat.
I was not aware of this use of bastante, but in
fact there is an idiomatic parallel in (US) English.
One could say "YOU ate enough meat" with the
emphasis on "YOU" and it would convey that you thought
the person ate far more than their share.
Your correction goes with the others that there "assai"
usually means "a lot". I have always read "allegro
assai" as "fast enough", and in fact I can still see
how the "enough" reading applies: Because if you
didn't take it very fast, that would not be "fast
enough".
I think of tempo indications as much as defining a feeling
as just a metronome mark. "Presto" says to me there
should be a frantic feeling, a sense that things are
just barely in control, while any "allegro" marking
is rapid but more reined in. A gallop, but not one
that's going to kill the horse.
> This last sense is what you find similar to "much", "very",
> "immensely", etc., but it is not the main sense of "assai", nor doest
> it mean such a thing in the examples of Italian expressions that you
> all gave. The similarity is given especially in Spanish, not in
> Italian.
OK, thanks.
<off topic>
Now tell me: Does "ahorita" carry more urgency than "ahora"?
</off topic>
- Randy
Marcello Penso
My experience has been while living in Italy, having an Italian wife,
parents and relatives is that 'assai' almost always means 'a lot' (or
'immensely', 'greatly'). Rarely, if ever, have I read or heard it used
as 'enough', which would most often be 'abbastanza'. In fact your
example #2:
2) enough. Assai! = That's enough! / Assez les gosses! = That's
enough, boys!
you should really use 'basta'. Basta! = That's enough! Basta ragazzi!
That's enough boys! (Basta meaning a cross between 'that's enough' and
'stop it').
I'm not sure where the 'enough' comes from, but it may be from a
particular dialect, possibly northern, because 'assai' as a general
term of everyday speech is more often used in southern Italy (south of
Rome) than northern, and there it is regularly used as 'a lot'.
Marcello
cwilson
> When a music movement is listed as 'allegro assai' what does 'assai' mean?
> Thanks very much.
> bill carroll, toronto
"A kiss is just a kiss. Assai is just assai."
Peter T. Daniels
"c" or "cq" stands for "Dooley"?
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: "A kiss is just a kiss. Assai is just assai."
We have a winner!
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska
Ale Redfiddler
"Marcello Penso" <mpe...@offler.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> My experience has been while living in Italy, having an Italian wife,
> parents and relatives is that 'assai' almost always means 'a lot' (or
> 'immensely', 'greatly'). Rarely, if ever, have I read or heard it used
> as 'enough', which would most often be 'abbastanza'.
it is precisely as you say.
In fact your
> example #2:
>
> 2) enough. Assai! = That's enough! / Assez les gosses! = That's
> enough, boys!
>
> you should really use 'basta'. Basta! = That's enough! Basta ragazzi!
> That's enough boys! (Basta meaning a cross between 'that's enough' and
> 'stop it').
Absolutely correct.
> I'm not sure where the 'enough' comes from, but it may be from a
> particular dialect, possibly northern, because 'assai' as a general
> term of everyday speech is more often used in southern Italy (south of
> Rome) than northern, and there it is regularly used as 'a lot'.
It is used more often in southern Italy because it is an older form of
"molto".
Southern Italians do use more "ancient" terms than northeners do.
Regards
Alessandra
alecs
> It is used more often in southern Italy because it is an older form of
> "molto".
ah ah ah!!!
ma se ti ricordi quando si usava,
allora le illazioni sulla tua indicibile età
non sono poi così distanti dalla verità...
> Southern Italians do use more "ancient" terms than northeners do.
>
deh!
Sarà per ciò che noi huomini del Sud
sovente ci si reca al cospetto de' cittadini di Mediolano
ut cagnoscere le maraviglie della lingua italica novamente
cangiata et trasportata tutta, et apparare massimamente
da quelli sanctissimi et cristianissimi (!) huomini, per gratia dei.
(scusami, sai. è stato più forte di me...)
regards,
your alecs.
Ale Redfiddler
"alecs" <vtero...@libero.it> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1hTz9.18498$Zn2.5...@twister1.libero.it...
> deh!
> Sarą per ciņ che noi huomini del Sud
> sovente ci si reca al cospetto de' cittadini di Mediolano
> ut cagnoscere le maraviglie della lingua italica novamente
> cangiata et trasportata tutta, et apparare massimamente
> da quelli sanctissimi et cristianissimi (!) huomini, per gratia dei.
sei proprio un cazzone!
ma che ci fai qui ????????????
ma pensa tu!
A.
Dr.Matt
alecs <vtero...@libero.it> wrote:
>> Southern Italians do use more "ancient" terms than northeners do.
Ma, si, yall!
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a trip to the bathroom."
Francois Desnoyers
Ale Redfiddler wrote:
> "Marcello Penso" <mpe...@offler.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
>
>
> > and there it is regularly used as 'a lot'.
>
> It is used more often in southern Italy because it is an older form of
> "molto".
As is "moult" in old french.
John H. McCloskey
> Thanks very much.
> bill carroll, toronto
Not a hard question.
"Assai" means whatever the performer or perfomers or conductor of
performers choose that it should mean. It's like a metronome number
-- one could abstractly explain such musicological obscurities with
Italian lexicography or mathematical arithmetic, perhaps, but ... but
just listen .... THAT's what he/she/they/it think _Allegro assai_
means.
'Tis a demand-side explanation, admittedly.
From the supply side, when you're seated at the keyboard and it says
_Allegro assai_ at the top of the sheet and you want to know what
you're supposed to do next, tempowise?
A hard question.
Freedom is hard! _Allegro assai_ means, I suppose, "Play it fast, and
play it with the RIGHT KIND of fastness."
(That is quite different, obviously, from when a movement is just
marked _Allegro_ -- that would mean you can play simply play it fast,
with ANY sort of fastness, no matter whether right or wrong.)
Next question?
BGKB. Happy days.
--JHM