Koechlin
piper
wrote:
>
>Martin Rucker wrote in message
>>Charles Koechlin -- Impressionist???????????
>>
>Depends what you mean by an impressionist in
>music- would you say, for example, that Chabrier
>or Chausson were impressionists?
Chabrier is often described as the French composer who most inspired
the Impressionists, but he was not one. He was from the previous
generation.
Chausson was not an Impressionist. He was a late Romantic composer.
>( not that
>Koechlin resembles these).
No, he doesn't.
>Koechlin was a pupil
>of Faure, and the latter seems to be a strong
>influence on his work.
All I can say is that the influence was not thorough enough for me.
Considering his dissonant style, I would call Koechlin a Modernist,
but I would not call him a decent composer. Chacun a son gout!
Michael
To reply by email, please eliminate "NOSPAM" from my address. Personal messages only!
schi...@lightlink.com
his was a .very. diverse output.
-Eric Schissel
piper
wrote:
>Koechlin dissonant?? How do you cope with Prokofiev?
I am not opposed to dissonance. If you're asking whether Prokofiev's
dissonant idiom makes him a Modernist, you'd better believe it does!
jh
piper wrote
>>Martin Rucker wrote in message
>>>Charles Koechlin -- Impressionist???????????
>>>
>>Depends what you mean by an impressionist in
>>music- would you say, for example, that Chabrier
>>or Chausson were impressionists?
>
>Chabrier is often described as the French composer who most inspired
>the Impressionists, but he was not one. He was from the previous
>generation.
>
Again, it depends how you define impresionism in music.
If Chabrier's works are inspired by impressionism in painting
and he shares similar ideals, mightn't
he be considered -in a certain sense -to be an impresionist?
>Chausson was not an Impressionist. He was a late Romantic composer.
>
But there are pieces by him which are quite impressionistic for example
some of the Melodies. They sound quite Debussyian in places.
Jim Humphreys
schi...@lightlink.com
Der Traurige Monch (sp?) prefigures .a. feature of impressionism...
-Eric Schissel
piper
wrote:
>Again, it depends how you define impresionism in music.
>If Chabrier's works are inspired by impressionism in painting
>and he shares similar ideals, mightn't
>he be considered -in a certain sense -to be an impresionist?
Is there evidence that his works were inspired by Impressionism in
painting?
>>Chausson was not an Impressionist. He was a late Romantic composer.
>>
>But there are pieces by him which are quite impressionistic for example
>some of the Melodies. They sound quite Debussyian in places.
But how does he use the melodies? You could also say that some of
Faure's - or even Franck's melodies sound "Debussyian" or
"Impressionist" in places. Or Liszt's. But how did they use them?
Impressionism in music is a function of the way harmony is used and
also, to some extent, the way the music is structured. In other words,
I'm saying that it's more complicated than just having some
"Debussyian in places" melodies.
Albéric
impressionist music available on records in France :
Regards
Claude - Paris
au loin
choral sur fauré
hymne à la nuit
la citée nouvelle
la course du printemps
le buisson ardent
les bandarlogs
les heures persanes (orch)
livre de la jungle (intégrale)
nuit de walpurgis
sur les flots lointoins
symphonie n° 1
vers la voute étoilée
ballade pour piano & orchestre
poème pour cor & orch
Silhouettes de comédies (basson et orch)
sonate clarinette & orch n° 2
14 juillet de romain rolland
les eaux vives
14 pièces pour flute et piano
15 piéces pour cor
3 pièces opus 34 (basson et piano)
4 nouvelles sonatines
4 nouvelles sonatines
danse lente
Epitaphe de Jean Harlow
l'album de lilian
Les chants de Nectaire (96 pièces pour flute - intégrale)
morceau de lecture flute et piano
morçeau de lecture pour cor
paysages et marines
quintette n°1
quintette primavéra
septuor à vents
septuor à vents
sonate à 7
sonate alto et piano
sonate basson et piano
sonate clarinette & piano
sonate cor et piano
sonate cor et piano
sonate opus 71 (basson et piano)
sonate piano et alto
sonate piano et violon
sonate piano et violoncelle
sonate pour 2 flutes
sonate pour flute et piano
sonneries pour cor
stèle funéraire
suite en quatuor
sur le nom de bach
vers le soleil (ondes martenot)
7 chansons pour gladys
améthyste
amphise et mélita
au temps des fées
chant de kala nag
déclin d'amour
hymne à vénus
il pleure dans mon coeur
la chanson des ingénues
le cortège d'amphitrite
le repas préparé
rondels
rondels
si tu le veux
trio
3 préludes
6 chansons bretonnes (1)
6 chansons bretonnes (2)
6 esquisses
ancienne maison de campagne
nocturne chromatique
jh <jimh...@netcomuk.co.uk> a écrit dans le message :
89rjju$6q3$1...@taliesin.netcom.net.uk...
>
> piper wrote
>
> >>Martin Rucker wrote in message
> >>>Charles Koechlin -- Impressionist???????????
> >>>
> >>Depends what you mean by an impressionist in
> >>music- would you say, for example, that Chabrier
> >>or Chausson were impressionists?
> >
> >Chabrier is often described as the French composer who most inspired
> >the Impressionists, but he was not one. He was from the previous
> >generation.
> >
> Again, it depends how you define impresionism in music.
> If Chabrier's works are inspired by impressionism in painting
> and he shares similar ideals, mightn't
> he be considered -in a certain sense -to be an impresionist?
>
> >Chausson was not an Impressionist. He was a late Romantic composer.
> >
> But there are pieces by him which are quite impressionistic for example
> some of the Melodies. They sound quite Debussyian in places.
>
> Jim Humphreys
>
>
jh
>>Again, it depends how you define impressionism in music.
>>If Chabrier's works are inspired by impressionism in painting
>>and he shares similar ideals, mightn't
>>he be considered -in a certain sense -to be an impressionist?
>
>Is there evidence that his works were inspired by Impressionism in
>painting?
>
He certainly shared similar ideals- so to that extent ( given that it
was in the field of painting that these were first formulated) we might
say that he was influenced ( a better word than inspired perhaps)
by Impressionism in painting.
>>>Chausson was not an Impressionist. He was a late Romantic composer.
>>
>>But there are pieces by him which are quite impressionistic for example
>>some of the Melodies. They sound quite Debussyian in places.
>
>But how does he use the melodies? You could also say that some of
>Faure's - or even Franck's melodies sound "Debussyian" or
>"Impressionist" in places. Or Liszt's.
>
Indeed they are. Impressionism, then, would be something
that did not begin abruptly with , say, Debussy, but had certain
antecedents. This would also be the case with Impressionism
in painting. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps we should not
place composers neatly into different boxes labelled " Impressionist"
, "Late Romantic" etc.
>But how did they use them?
>Impressionism in music is a function of the way harmony is used and
>also, to some extent, the way the music is structured. In other words,
>I'm saying that it's more complicated than just having some
>"Debussyian in places" melodies.
>
I did not say that impressionism was *just* a matter of
"sounding like Debussy in places". "Sounding like Debussy"
does not preclude the things you mention - whole tone harmonies
for example. In fact ,"sounding like Debussy" might well be an
indication of such harmonies and the way the music is structured.
Jim Humphreys
jh
jh
jh
jh
jh
piper
Or you could say that the Impressionists (mainly Debussy, I think)
were quite well aware of and influenced by Liszt. But that does not
make Liszt, himself, an Impressionist.
piper
wrote:
>
>piper wrote :
>>Is there evidence that [Chabrier's] works were inspired by Impressionism in
>>painting?
>>
>
>He certainly shared similar ideals- so to that extent ( given that it
>was in the field of painting that these were first formulated) we might
>say that he was influenced ( a better word than inspired perhaps)
>by Impressionism in painting.
Interesting.
>>>>Chausson was not an Impressionist. He was a late Romantic composer.
>>>
>>>But there are pieces by him which are quite impressionistic for example
>>>some of the Melodies. They sound quite Debussyian in places.
>>
>>But how does he use the melodies? You could also say that some of
>>Faure's - or even Franck's melodies sound "Debussyian" or
>>"Impressionist" in places. Or Liszt's.
>>
>Indeed they are. Impressionism, then, would be something
>that did not begin abruptly with , say, Debussy, but had certain
>antecedents. This would also be the case with Impressionism
>in painting. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps we should not
>place composers neatly into different boxes labelled " Impressionist"
>, "Late Romantic" etc.
[snip]
You are right, and you argued your point very logically. Thank you.
jh
piper wrote:
>>Funny you should mention Liszt, since his use of the whole-tone scale in
>>Der Traurige Monch (sp?) prefigures .a. feature of impressionism...
>>-Eric Schissel
>
>Or you could say that the Impressionists (mainly Debussy, I think)
>were quite well aware of and influenced by Liszt. But that does not
>make Liszt, himself, an Impressionist.
>
Certainly most of Liszt's output is not Impressionist, but it seems that
some of the late pieces are: I'm thinking of Les jeux d'eau a la Villa
d'Este
( from Les Annees de Pelerinage) in particular.
Interestingly enough, several of the other pieces in the Troisieme
Annee are _almost_ atonal if they are not actually such. So Liszt
anticipates the Second Viennese School as well as Impressionism-
although, so far as I am aware, Schonberg et al never mentioned
him as an influence.
Jim Humphreys
piper
wrote:
>Certainly most of Liszt's output is not Impressionist, but it seems that
>some of the late pieces are: I'm thinking of Les jeux d'eau a la Villa
>d'Este
>( from Les Annees de Pelerinage) in particular.
I don't really agree. I think that impressions of places aren't
automatically Impressionist. Would you say that Mendelssohn's Hebrides
Overture is also Impressionst?
>Interestingly enough, several of the other pieces in the Troisieme
>Annee are _almost_ atonal if they are not actually such.
Liszt really was radical in this respect, and not only in this
respect.
> So Liszt
>anticipates the Second Viennese School as well as Impressionism-
>although, so far as I am aware, Schonberg et al never mentioned
>him as an influence.
I understand and appreciate your view of a music history lacking rigid
distinctions of era, and I share your conviction that this view is
accurate. But I really do have a problem with the idea of something
"anticipating" the work of someone else. I think that this is a
problematic form of words, since it implies that a composer was being
"prophetic," or that there is something predestined about music
history. Also, I would put it to you that even if Liszt was not a
direct influence on Schoenberg (and I'm not sure why he wouldn't have
been), he was through Wagner and probably Mahler.