Why Are Major Keys Happy, Minor Keys Sad?

[The Green Troll]

Zerkon" <Z...@erkonx.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.11...@erkonx.net...


> Why Do Major Keys evoke happiness and Minor Keys sadness or pensiveness?

> This has been connected to speech intonation but then why the intonation?


You may be generalizing too much. Bach composed numerous minor-key
fuges and concerti that are lively, vigorous, driving, and satisfying.
The same is true of works by Handel, Vivaldi, and more recent
composers. It is obvious that neither these composers nor the
audiences that continue to relish their music after three centuries
relegate the minor key to a single emotion.

The distinguishing characteristic of the minor key is that it sounds
serious, rather than weak or frivolous.

The Ancient Greek recognition of the mood of music still has some
validity. (See the chart at <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/
diatonic.html>.)

Beco dos Gatinhos

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Dec 17, 1:33 pm, The Green Troll <a...@rev.net> wrote:
> Zerkon" <Z...@erkonx.net> wrote in message
>
> news:pan.2010.11...@erkonx.net...
>
> > Why Do Major Keys evoke happiness and Minor Keys sadness or pensiveness?
> > This has been connected to speech intonation but then why the intonation?

Well, this has just been crossposted out of nowhere, but who says they
do?

And who has made such a "connection"?

> You may be generalizing too much. Bach composed numerous minor-key
> fuges and concerti that are lively, vigorous, driving, and satisfying.
> The same is true of works by Handel, Vivaldi, and more recent
> composers. It is obvious that neither these composers nor the
> audiences that continue to relish their music after three centuries
> relegate the minor key to a single emotion.
>
> The distinguishing characteristic of the minor key is that it sounds
> serious, rather than weak or frivolous.

That's almost as absurd as the original assertion.

[Bret Cahill]

> > Why Do Major Keys evoke happiness and Minor Keys sadness or pensiveness?
> > This has been connected to speech intonation but then why the intonation?
>
> You may be generalizing too much. Bach composed numerous minor-key
> fuges and concerti that are lively, vigorous, driving, and satisfying.

That doesn't necessarily mean "happy."

> The same is true of works by Handel, Vivaldi, and more recent
> composers. It is obvious that neither these composers nor the
> audiences that continue to relish their music after three centuries
> relegate the minor key to a single emotion.
>
> The distinguishing characteristic of the minor key is that it sounds
> serious, rather than weak or frivolous.

What about fun? Is fun serious?


Bret Cahill

[Joe Roberts]

The Green Troll wrote:
> Zerkon" <Z...@erkonx.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2010.11...@erkonx.net...
>
>
>> Why Do Major Keys evoke happiness and
>> Minor Keys sadness or pensiveness?
>

Easy. Minor keys haven't grown to achieve their majority yet. Music in a minor key needs to evolve to resolve its adolescent growing pains.

Young adulthood hits Eb major, so natural for every SATB voice to soar into its springtime. Sopranos love it because they carry the leading tone above all that might be going on in the world below. Altos love it for the high tonic that rings of the victory that they don't get all that often. Tenors love it because they can range pretty much all over the place and no one bothers them for it. Basses love it, well, for what else -- the low Eb.

Good old Eb major!

Then come mature affairs between Bb major and G minor -- Boy and Girl, modern issues get resolved by downloading a new MP3 to the shared tablet space. Major, minor, whatever, resolve it. Click.

Finally comes C.

Joe

[Jonathan Ellis]

"Bret Cahill" <Bret_E...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:97ffd557-4ded-456a...@p7g2000pbz.googlegroups.com...

I wonder how much of our perception of "happy" versus "sad" is down to
the fact that, in the harmonic series, the major third is a much closer
harmonic to a given "tonic" than the minor third, and thus much more of
a "concord" (to which things tend to resolve) than a "discord" (an less
stable compound sound that wants to resolve elsewhere)?

-- Jonathan.

[Alain Naigeon]

They aren't.

--

Franï¿œais *==> "Musique renaissance" <==* English
midi - facsimiles - ligatures - mensuration
http://anaigeon.free.fr | http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/anaigeon/
Alain Naigeon - anai...@free.fr - Oberhoffen/Moder, France
http://fr.youtube.com/user/AlainNaigeon

[John W Kennedy]

On 2012-12-20 13:18:28 +0000, Terry said:

> On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:08:50 +1100, Alain Naigeon wrote
> (in article <50d248ff$0$1938$426a...@news.free.fr>):
>
>> They aren't.
>>
>>
>
> Bingo!

But.... There is a popular impression to that effect. Why?

--
John W Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Dec 20, 6:28 pm, John W Kennedy <jwke...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2012-12-20 13:18:28 +0000, Terry said:
> > On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 10:08:50 +1100, Alain Naigeon wrote

> > (in article <50d248ff$0$1938$426a7...@news.free.fr>):

>
> >> They aren't.
>
> > Bingo!
>
> But.... There is a popular impression to that effect. Why?

Does anyone still have "Music Appreciation" class?

(In 9th grade I learned to hate *Sheherezade* thanks to Music
Appreciation class, with Miss Delp.)

[Joe Roberts]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> Does anyone still have "Music Appreciation" class?
>
> (In 9th grade I learned to hate *Sheherezade* thanks to
> Music Appreciation class, with Miss Delp.)

Buy why was that? Whatever did she do to you?

... Sheherezade or Miss Delp?

(or not do?)

Joe

[Peter T. Daniels]

I guess you never had Music Appreciation.

[Joe Roberts]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

... (snip for brevity, please see Peter's original message)

> (In 9th grade I learned to hate *Sheherezade* thanks to
> Music Appreciation class, with Miss Delp.)

In 9th grade we had our first-ever choice of an elective class: Woodworking or Music Appreciation.

All the boys chose Woodworking. All the girls chose Music Appreciation.

In our first Woodworking session, the teacher saw that we had two too many kids for the available shop tools. Just at that moment my friend and I were messing around in the back of the woodshop with some wooden dowels we had picked up. I had one dowel held under the chin with the other sawing across it like a violin bow. I forget what my friend was doing. We were both just fiddling around.

(We both liked classical music. Favorites were G&S, Roses From the South, and the Emperor Waltz. We also dug Spike Jones, but that's another story.)

The woodshop teacher pointed his finger at us and said, "You two are going to Music Appreciation". So we did, that very day.

My first Music Appreciation homework assignment was to write a page about somebody called "Richard Vogner". (The assignment was given verbally). I searched all evening through our encyclopedia's "V" volume for a musician whose given name was Richard, came up blank, and had no paper to turn in the next day.

But we had a good time in Music Appreciation class: I learned to like The Flying Dutchman and the War March of the Priests.

Joe

[Joe Roberts]

I did, but liked 'Sheherezade' and don't remember my teacher. I do
remember my Geometry teacher but that's entirely another story, OT,
and not for the most polite company like here.

Surely you don't fault 'Sheherezade' for being in a minor key? She
couldn't help it. (For that matter, maybe also couldn't Miss Delp?)

Joe

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Dec 21, 6:23 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:42:39 +1100, Peter T. Daniels wrote
> (in article
> <fbd7938f-1956-4a7b-95a5-174b95c27...@r13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>):

> She might have done better if she'd taught you how to spell it.

Sorry, but it's far too much trouble to go into Character Map and pick
out all the Russian letters one by one.

Would you be so kind as to do it for me?

[Peter T. Daniels]

"This is the Sherezade theme. This is the Sultan theme. This is the
storm theme."

Drop needle on record. "Which theme is this?"

Week after week.

[Kip Williams]

Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 8:29 AM:

But did you all sing together,

"THIS is
the SYM-pho-ny
that SCHU-bert wrote but nev-er
FIN-ished..."

?

(Freddy in "Miss Peach" said, "I don't care for the tune, but those
lyrics are dynamite!")


Kip W

[Kip Williams]

Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 8:28 AM:

> On Dec 21, 6:23 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:42:39 +1100, Peter T. Daniels wrote
>> (in article
>> <fbd7938f-1956-4a7b-95a5-174b95c27...@r13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>):
>>

>>> (In 9th grade I learned to hate *Sheherezade* thanks to Music
>>> Appreciation class, with Miss Delp.)
>>
>> She might have done better if she'd taught you how to spell it.
>
> Sorry, but it's far too much trouble to go into Character Map and pick
> out all the Russian letters one by one.
>
> Would you be so kind as to do it for me?

I've standardized pretty much on the "Sch-" spelling, but I see it both
ways out in the world. Ravel, for instance, uses "Sh-" for his.

I do think there's a definitive spelling for "Scheherajazz," though.
Just in case anybody was about to ask.

http://hooksgems.blogspot.com/2010/12/skip-martins-scheherajazz.html

(Sadly, the download link is dead, but I've had my own copy since the
80s, and always in whatever the most convenient format for me happens to
be. If your thrift shop doesn't have the LP, the CD reissue is out
there. I've found a session musician online who lists the recording
among his credits. In fact, I heard from an orchestra in Ohio that
wanted me to send them mp3s because they were considering it for an
upcoming concert. I obliged and asked them to let me know if they were
going to do it, because I'd consider driving to Ohio to hear it live. As
I'm sure you've guessed, I never heard back after that.)


Kip W
swingin'

[John W Kennedy]

No, but my mother did in Brooklyn in the 1920s. They are said to be the
work of Walter Damrosch.

> (Freddy in "Miss Peach" said, "I don't care for the tune, but those
> lyrics are dynamite!")

--
John W Kennedy
"Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the heir to the throne
of the kingdom of idiots would fight a war on twelve fronts"
-- J. Michael Straczynski. "Babylon 5", "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"

[Peter T. Daniels]

That was _way_ before my or our time -- I knew a few of those tags
because Walter Damrosch's great-nephew (IIRC -- I think he was a
grandson of Frank Damrosch) knew them.

A couple of Tchaikovsky themes are spoiled by "Yoo-hoo, Mrs.
Hammerschmidt" and "This is the cereal that's shot from guns!"

i never saw Fantasia until years after I knew Alan Sherman's "Hello
mudda, hello fadda," but the one time Lyric Opera put on La Gioconda
(not sure it was a worthwhile expenditure of resources), I trust the
corps de ballet were steeled for the giggles that greeted the opening
bars of their Big Number.

> ?
>
> (Freddy in "Miss Peach" said, "I don't care for the tune, but those
> lyrics are dynamite!")

Wait'll he finds out about Mahler!

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Dec 21, 9:18 am, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 8:28 AM:
>
> > On Dec 21, 6:23 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:42:39 +1100, Peter T. Daniels wrote
> >> (in article
> >> <fbd7938f-1956-4a7b-95a5-174b95c27...@r13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>):
>
> >>> (In 9th grade I learned to hate *Sheherezade* thanks to Music
> >>> Appreciation class, with Miss Delp.)
>
> >> She might have done better if she'd taught you how to spell it.
>
> > Sorry, but it's far too much trouble to go into Character Map and pick
> > out all the Russian letters one by one.
>
> > Would you be so kind as to do it for me?
>
> I've standardized pretty much on the "Sch-" spelling, but I see it both
> ways out in the world. Ravel, for instance, uses "Sh-" for his.

"Sch-" is fine for words that come into English from German. But this
name came either indirectly from Arabic or Persian,* or directly from
Russian.

I do have Muhsin Mahdi's 3-volume edition** of the Arabic text of the
'Alf layla (1000 Nights), but it more likely became known to Mr.
Korsakov via the Persian "1001 Nights."

**There's no definitive text -- it was very popular so it circulated
in various versions.

> I do think there's a definitive spelling for "Scheherajazz," though.
> Just in case anybody was about to ask.
>
> http://hooksgems.blogspot.com/2010/12/skip-martins-scheherajazz.html
>
> (Sadly, the download link is dead, but I've had my own copy since the
> 80s, and always in whatever the most convenient format for me happens to
> be. If your thrift shop doesn't have the LP, the CD reissue is out
> there. I've found a session musician online who lists the recording
> among his credits. In fact, I heard from an orchestra in Ohio that
> wanted me to send them mp3s because they were considering it for an
> upcoming concert. I obliged and asked them to let me know if they were
> going to do it, because I'd consider driving to Ohio to hear it live. As
> I'm sure you've guessed, I never heard back after that.)

I don't know what that is, but the title suggests I would hate it (and
not because of my aversion to the original).

I also detest Switched-On Bach (and how much more so "Snowflakes are
Dancing") and the Swingle Singers.

[Kip Williams]

Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 11:49 AM:

> On Dec 21, 9:18 am, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 8:28 AM:
>>
>>> On Dec 21, 6:23 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:42:39 +1100, Peter T. Daniels wrote
>>>> (in article
>>>> <fbd7938f-1956-4a7b-95a5-174b95c27...@r13g2000vbd.googlegroups.com>):
>>
>>>>> (In 9th grade I learned to hate *Sheherezade* thanks to Music
>>>>> Appreciation class, with Miss Delp.)
>>
>>>> She might have done better if she'd taught you how to spell it.
>>
>>> Sorry, but it's far too much trouble to go into Character Map and pick
>>> out all the Russian letters one by one.
>>
>>> Would you be so kind as to do it for me?
>>
>> I've standardized pretty much on the "Sch-" spelling, but I see it both
>> ways out in the world. Ravel, for instance, uses "Sh-" for his.
>
> "Sch-" is fine for words that come into English from German. But this
> name came either indirectly from Arabic or Persian,* or directly from
> Russian.
>
> I do have Muhsin Mahdi's 3-volume edition** of the Arabic text of the
> 'Alf layla (1000 Nights), but it more likely became known to Mr.
> Korsakov via the Persian "1001 Nights."
>
> **There's no definitive text -- it was very popular so it circulated
> in various versions.

I'm more concerned with the proper transliteration of the name as
Rimsky-Korsakov intended it than the proper Arabic. Once he wrote his
piece and titled it, we were no longer talking about the original.

>> I do think there's a definitive spelling for "Scheherajazz," though.
>> Just in case anybody was about to ask.
>>
>> http://hooksgems.blogspot.com/2010/12/skip-martins-scheherajazz.html
>>
>> (Sadly, the download link is dead, but I've had my own copy since the
>> 80s, and always in whatever the most convenient format for me happens to
>> be. If your thrift shop doesn't have the LP, the CD reissue is out
>> there. I've found a session musician online who lists the recording
>> among his credits. In fact, I heard from an orchestra in Ohio that
>> wanted me to send them mp3s because they were considering it for an
>> upcoming concert. I obliged and asked them to let me know if they were
>> going to do it, because I'd consider driving to Ohio to hear it live. As
>> I'm sure you've guessed, I never heard back after that.)
>
> I don't know what that is, but the title suggests I would hate it (and
> not because of my aversion to the original).

Oh, it's insane. It switches between orchestral original and
hyperactive, brassy, 60s detective-show big band jazz. I certainly could
understand somebody not liking it, but it's one of the most enjoyable
guilty pleasures I know.


Kip W

[Peter T. Daniels]

If you're only interested in the transliteration of the Russian, for
English-readers, then it's <Sh->. For German-readers, it's <Sch->. For
French-readers it's presumably <Ch->.

> >> I do think there's a definitive spelling for "Scheherajazz," though.
> >> Just in case anybody was about to ask.
>
> >>http://hooksgems.blogspot.com/2010/12/skip-martins-scheherajazz.html
>
> >> (Sadly, the download link is dead, but I've had my own copy since the
> >> 80s, and always in whatever the most convenient format for me happens to
> >> be. If your thrift shop doesn't have the LP, the CD reissue is out
> >> there. I've found a session musician online who lists the recording
> >> among his credits. In fact, I heard from an orchestra in Ohio that
> >> wanted me to send them mp3s because they were considering it for an
> >> upcoming concert. I obliged and asked them to let me know if they were
> >> going to do it, because I'd consider driving to Ohio to hear it live. As
> >> I'm sure you've guessed, I never heard back after that.)
>
> > I don't know what that is, but the title suggests I would hate it (and
> > not because of my aversion to the original).
>
> Oh, it's insane. It switches between orchestral original and
> hyperactive, brassy, 60s detective-show big band jazz. I certainly could
> understand somebody not liking it, but it's one of the most enjoyable
> guilty pleasures I know.

What was it, Electric Light Orcnestra, that tried to make "classical"
music palatable for pop listeners?

Whereas, no matter _what_ you play on a pop station in a pop rotation,
it will become a hit -- viz., "Pachelbel Canon," "Albinoni Adagio."
and Gorecki bleeding chunk of 3rd Symphony. Oh, and The Elvira Madigan
Concerto. And Bolero. (But those are movie music rather than pop hits.)

[John W Kennedy]

I believe the Russian is шехерезада, which would transliterate most
conveniently as "Shekherezada". But standard spellings of the name in
English get involved, as well as a long-standing tradition to adopt
German spellings of Russian names, and even German spellings of Polish
versions of Russian names (which is how Москва became "Moscow").

--
John W Kennedy
"I want everybody to be smart. As smart as they can be. A world of
ignorant people is too dangerous to live in."
-- Garson Kanin. "Born Yesterday"

[Kip Williams]

Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 5:04 PM:

> What was it, Electric Light Orcnestra, that tried to make "classical"
> music palatable for pop listeners?

I don't know if it was them. Maybe Renaissance?

> Whereas, no matter _what_ you play on a pop station in a pop rotation,
> it will become a hit -- viz., "Pachelbel Canon," "Albinoni Adagio."
> and Gorecki bleeding chunk of 3rd Symphony. Oh, and The Elvira Madigan
> Concerto. And Bolero. (But those are movie music rather than pop hits.)

So the classical industry just needs some good, old-fashioned Payola!


Kip W

[John W Kennedy]

On 2012-12-22 05:14:27 +0000, Kip Williams said:

> Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 5:04 PM:
>
>> What was it, Electric Light Orcnestra, that tried to make "classical"
>> music palatable for pop listeners?
>
> I don't know if it was them. Maybe Renaissance?

The first usual reference is to the Moody Blues' album "Days of Future
Past". The label wanted to show off their new stereo process, and told
them, "We've hired an orchestra for you. Go do a rock and roll version
of Dvořak's 'New World Symphony'." They disliked the idea, and the man
hired to conduct the orchestra disliked it, too, so they agreed instead
to record a suit of songs the band had been working on (theme: a day in
the life of everyman) with an orchestral overture and interludes in
more or less the style of Dvořak, and present it to the label as a fait
accompli. It worked. For many years, for the sake of their musical
reputation, the band avoided repeating such a thing, but, after a few
decades, they started performing with live orchestras, not only the
"Days of Future Past" numbers, but many other numbers. (The band's own
ranks had always included a flute and a mellotron, an early
synthesizer-like instrument.)

The next is Jon Lord's "Concerto for Group and Orchestra". Malcolm
Arnold had put out a call for such a piece, and the classically-trained
Lord, organist for Deep Purple, produced a full-length number in the
three traditional movements. It was performed at the Royal Albert Hall
and an album and a video were released, but the score was somehow lost.
However, a determined Dutch musicologist decided to recreate the score
by ear (with some help from the video), and, when Lord got word of it,
he joined in, adding a few minor revisions. It was performed again at
the Royal Albert Hall in 2000, and the band went on a world tour,
performing with various local orchestras.

A more recent example would be Christopher Franke, who used the money
he had made with Tangerine Dream to create the Berlin Symphonic Film
Orchestra. Their best-known work is no doubt the score to the
television series "Babylon 5" (1993-1998), the last five minutes of
which can be heard at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znNciln7qwY


--
John W Kennedy
"...if you had to fall in love with someone who was evil, I can see why
it was her."
-- "Alias"

[Kip Williams]

John W Kennedy wrote, On 12/22/12 11:47 AM:

> On 2012-12-22 05:14:27 +0000, Kip Williams said:
>
>> Peter T. Daniels wrote, On 12/21/12 5:04 PM:
>>
>>> What was it, Electric Light Orcnestra, that tried to make "classical"
>>> music palatable for pop listeners?
>>
>> I don't know if it was them. Maybe Renaissance?
>
> The first usual reference is to the Moody Blues' album "Days of Future
> Past". The label wanted to show off their new stereo process, and told
> them, "We've hired an orchestra for you. Go do a rock and roll version
> of Dvořak's 'New World Symphony'." They disliked the idea, and the man
> hired to conduct the orchestra disliked it, too, so they agreed instead
> to record a suit of songs the band had been working on (theme: a day in
> the life of everyman) with an orchestral overture and interludes in more
> or less the style of Dvořak, and present it to the label as a fait
> accompli. It worked. For many years, for the sake of their musical
> reputation, the band avoided repeating such a thing, but, after a few
> decades, they started performing with live orchestras, not only the
> "Days of Future Past" numbers, but many other numbers. (The band's own
> ranks had always included a flute and a mellotron, an early
> synthesizer-like instrument.)

Yes. We saw the Moody Blues with an orchestra when we lived in Virginia.
I never really thought of them as classical, though they had some
classical sounds in the music sometimes.

> The next is Jon Lord's "Concerto for Group and Orchestra". Malcolm
> Arnold had put out a call for such a piece, and the classically-trained
> Lord, organist for Deep Purple, produced a full-length number in the
> three traditional movements. It was performed at the Royal Albert Hall
> and an album and a video were released, but the score was somehow lost.
> However, a determined Dutch musicologist decided to recreate the score
> by ear (with some help from the video), and, when Lord got word of it,
> he joined in, adding a few minor revisions. It was performed again at
> the Royal Albert Hall in 2000, and the band went on a world tour,
> performing with various local orchestras.

I digitized my LP of that a while back. Not long after Lord passed on, I
found another one of his compositions at a used-CD shop. Apart from
that, though, I don't think of Deep Purple as a classical crossover, but
the Concerto's a good example.

> A more recent example would be Christopher Franke, who used the money he
> had made with Tangerine Dream to create the Berlin Symphonic Film
> Orchestra. Their best-known work is no doubt the score to the television
> series "Babylon 5" (1993-1998), the last five minutes of which can be
> heard at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znNciln7qwY

I can't keep track of all the bands that have performed with symphonies
in recent years. They mostly seem to do inflated versions of recorded
hits. Yes did some really big stuff with orchestras that's fun to listen
to as well.


Kip W
rasfw

[John W Kennedy]

I think that most groups that do not believe in minimalism or brutalism
for their own sakes have done some work that way. The Corrs, for
example, not only in their "Unplugged" album, but in the "Minstrel Boy"
track from their first album. The Beatles, themselves, might have gone
in a very different direction if George Martin had not come over from
EMI's classical side.

Going in the other direction, of course, there have been many rock
adaptations of classical material. We all know "A fifth of Beethoven"
(anticipated in 1928 by Kálmán's "'Beethoven Foxtrot' by Sammy
Nussbaum"). "Jesu, joy of man's desiring" was adapted to a basic rock
beat for the bridge of the Byrds' "She don't care about time", had the
barlines shuffled around to put it into 12/8 for an instrumental track
called "Joy", and was recently adapted by the Moody Blues as "In the
quiet of Christmas morning".

(Even when there is no material in common, I sometimes feel that there
is a musical sympathy. For example, the Who's "Won't get fooled again"
always reminds me somehow of the Leonore #3.)

--
John W Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only the
obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your heart
that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good government
shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis)

[willimek.d...@t-online.de]

Major and Minor - the Strebetendenz-Theory

If you want to answer the question, why major sounds happy and minor sounds sad, there is the problem, that some minor chords don't sound sad. The solution of this problem is the Strebetendenz-Theory. It says, that music is not able to transmit emotions directly. Music can just convey processes of will, but the music listener fills this processes of will with emotions. Similary, when you watch a dramatic film in television, the film cannot transmit emotions directly, but processes of will. The spectator perceives the processes of will dyed with emotions - identifying with the protagonist. When you listen music you identify too, but with an anonymous will now.

If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want anymore...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness. If you play the minor chord loudly, you connect the same will with a feeling of rage. You distinguish in the same way as you would distinguish, if someone would say the words "I don't want anymore..." the first time softly and the second time loudly.

This operations of will in the music were unknown until the Strebetendenz-Theory discovered them. And therefore many previous researches in psycholgy of music failed. If you want more information about music and emotions and get the answer, why music touches us emotionally, you can download the essay "Vibrating Molecules and the Secret of their Feelings" for free. You can get it on the link:
http://www.willimekmusic.homepage.t-online.de/homepage/Striving/Striving.doc

Enjoy reading

Bernd Willimek

[willimek.d...@t-online.de]

[John W Kennedy]

Ignorant of music, ignorant of psychology, and a circular argument to
begin with.

--
John W Kennedy
A proud member of the reality-based community.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 11, 1:04 pm, willimek.danae.di...@t-online.de wrote:

> Major and Minor - the Strebetendenz-Theory

> If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want anymore...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness.

What utter rot.

(Does it perchance have anything to do with Schopenhauer?)

[EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Apr 11, 1:04 pm, willimek.danae.di...@t-online.de wrote:
>
>> Major and Minor - the Strebetendenz-Theory
>
>> If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want anymore...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness.
>
> What utter rot.
>

AMEN! (The basic premise of the question is incorrect - one can cite
any number of examples that refute it.)

[greg lee]

On Apr 12, 9:46 am, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"

Didn't Louis B. Mayer say something like?:

- Because MGM is a major motion picture company that makes only major
motion pictures, no theme song of any MGM movie will ever be in a
minor key.

Isn't "Tara's Theme" and "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" in major key?

[EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)]

So? (I have no idea what "Tara's Theme" is, but the fact a given
example is in a major key does nothing to prove or disprove the moron's
initial premise.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 15, 2:20 pm, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"

<evgm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> greg lee wrote:
> > On Apr 12, 9:46 am, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
> > <evgm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Apr 11, 1:04 pm, willimek.danae.di...@t-online.de wrote:
> >>>> Major and Minor - the Strebetendenz-Theory
> >>>> If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want anymore...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness.
> >>> What utter rot.
> >> AMEN!  (The basic premise of the question is incorrect - one can cite
> >> any number of examples that refute it.)
>
> > Didn't Louis B. Mayer say something like?:
>
> > - Because MGM is a major motion picture company that makes only major
> > motion pictures, no theme song of any MGM movie will ever be in a
> > minor key.
>
> > Isn't "Tara's Theme" and "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" in major key?
>
> So?  (I have no idea what "Tara's Theme" is,

from Gone with the Wind (it doesn't actually cadence, but the tune
does seem to be in a minor key)

[John W Kennedy]

"Tara's Theme" is the swoony theme heard over and over again in "Gone
With the Wind", sometimes in the aftermarket given the equally swoony
lyric, "My Own True Love". If you are a New Yorker of a certain age,
you may recall it as the theme of Channel 9's Million Dollar Movie.

But, of course, in 19th-century western music, or imitations thereof,
it /is/ true that Major is Happy and Minor is Sad. The gaff is in
supposing the association to be universal, when it isn't even universal
in western art music.

--
John W Kennedy
If Bill Gates believes in "intelligent design", why can't he apply it
to Windows?

[Peter T. Daniels]

I've never encountered such a thing!

("Lara's Theme" has words -- "Somewhere, my love" -- but not Tara's.)

If you are a New Yorker of a certain age,
> you may recall it as the theme of Channel 9's Million Dollar Movie.

But I know that Evelyn isn't so I didn't mention that.

They showed the same movie twice each evening for a week -- I remember
reciting *Lost in Space* with Ray Robinson (the son of the fighter),
who was one grade ahead of me, on the way home from school on the
subway.

> But, of course, in 19th-century western music, or imitations thereof,
> it /is/ true that Major is Happy and Minor is Sad. The gaff is in
> supposing the association to be universal, when it isn't even universal
> in western art music.

I really don't think that's a legit generalization even for 19thcwm.
Are Beethoven's 5th and 9th "Sad"? Are Bruckner's 4th - 7th "Happy"?
as compared with the others?

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 16, 2:23 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2013 09:01:59 +1000, Peter T. Daniels wrote
> (in article
> <24314049-fce7-48c7-8e15-b405c8a0b...@w1g2000vbw.googlegroups.com>):

Forbiddem Planet, I think

> with Ray Robinson (the son of the fighter),
> > who was one grade ahead of me, on the way home from school on the
> > subway.
>
> >> But, of course, in 19th-century western music, or imitations thereof,
> >> it /is/ true that Major is Happy and Minor is Sad. The gaff is in
> >> supposing the association to be universal, when it isn't even universal
> >> in western art music.
>
> > I really don't think that's a legit generalization even for 19thcwm.
> > Are Beethoven's 5th and 9th "Sad"? Are Bruckner's 4th - 7th "Happy"?
> > as compared with the others?
>

> Is Handel's "He was Despised" sad? I think so. Is Gluck's "Che faro senza
> Eurydice" sad? I think so. Nothing much sadder, really. I doubt that anybody
> would think differently.
>
> The first is in Eb major; the second in C major. Give me time, and I'll think
> of some more. The whole proposition is silly.

Not 19th-century! (Lots of examples in Mozart, who also doesn't count.)

[John W Kennedy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krlgNzxdMuQ Played all the time on
oldies stations; you need to broaden your horizons.

> ("Lara's Theme" has words -- "Somewhere, my love" -- but not Tara's.)

The words are by Mack David, whose Hollywood career had not started in
1939, so they are probably not official to the movie, but they
certainly exist.

>> If you are a New Yorker of a certain age, you may recall it as the
>> theme of Channel 9's Million Dollar Movie.
>
> But I know that Evelyn isn't so I didn't mention that.
>
> They showed the same movie twice each evening for a week -- I remember
> reciting *Lost in Space* with Ray Robinson (the son of the fighter),
> who was one grade ahead of me, on the way home from school on the
> subway.

Huh? "Lost in Space"?

>> But, of course, in 19th-century western music, or imitations thereof,
>> it /is/ true that Major is Happy and Minor is Sad. The gaff is in
>> supposing the association to be universal, when it isn't even universal
>> in western art music.
>
> I really don't think that's a legit generalization even for 19thcwm.
> Are Beethoven's 5th and 9th "Sad"? Are Bruckner's 4th - 7th "Happy"?
> as compared with the others?

Well, it's a generalization. But compared even to the case of Baroque
music, let alone music of other cultures, it's a pretty fair
generalization -- enough to confuse people. In any case, the 5th and
9th begin with minor foreboding and end in major triumph, do they not?

[Joe Roberts]

All sorts of snips for brevity ...

willimek.danae.di...@t-online.de wrote:
> Major and Minor - the Strebetendenz-Theory
> If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the
> will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you
> identify normally with the will "I don't want anymore...". If
> you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't
> want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness.

Maybe the guy just takes romance with a tinge of sadness. He ought to hear
Scheherazade each night for 1001 nights, and on each 365th play follow with
the Anniversary Waltz. For sure he'd wind up saying, "I don't want any
more."

Joe

[Peter T. Daniels]

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krlgNzxdMuQPlayed all the time on

> oldies stations; you need to broaden your horizons.
>
> > ("Lara's Theme" has words -- "Somewhere, my love" -- but not Tara's.)
>
> The words are by Mack David, whose Hollywood career had not started in
> 1939, so they are probably not official to the movie, but they
> certainly exist.
>
> >> If you are a New Yorker of a certain age, you may recall it as the
> >> theme of Channel 9's Million Dollar Movie.
>
> > But I know that Evelyn isn't so I didn't mention that.
>
> > They showed the same movie twice each evening for a week -- I remember
> > reciting *Lost in Space* with Ray Robinson (the son of the fighter),
> > who was one grade ahead of me, on the way home from school on the
> > subway.
>
> Huh? "Lost in Space"?

See suggestion posted three hours earlier.

> >> But, of course, in 19th-century western music, or imitations thereof,
> >> it /is/ true that Major is Happy and Minor is Sad. The gaff is in
> >> supposing the association to be universal, when it isn't even universal
> >> in western art music.
>
> > I really don't think that's a legit generalization even for 19thcwm.
> > Are Beethoven's 5th and 9th "Sad"? Are Bruckner's 4th - 7th "Happy"?
> > as compared with the others?
>
> Well, it's a generalization. But compared even to the case of Baroque
> music, let alone music of other cultures, it's a pretty fair
> generalization -- enough to confuse people. In any case, the 5th and
> 9th begin with minor foreboding and end in major triumph, do they not?

So that would be the very opposite of "Sad," no?

[John Wiser]

"Joe Roberts" <cd...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:kkjpon$h7$1...@dont-email.me...

I believe the applicable saying is, "Life is too short."

jdw

[Walter Bushell]

Convention.

--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx

[Curlytop]

willimek.d...@t-online.de set the following eddies spiralling through
the space-time continuum:

> If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I
> want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the
> will "I don't want anymore...". If you play the minor chord softly, you
> connect the will "I don't want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness. If
> you play the minor chord loudly, you connect the same will with a feeling
> of rage. You distinguish in the same way as you would distinguish, if
> someone would say the words "I don't want anymore..." the first time
> softly and the second time loudly.

The minor key can also be threatening.

My favourite example of the contrast between major and minor is "Teddy
Bears' Picnic". The melody begins in the minor and the lyric sounds almost
like a threat - "If you go down to the woods today..." Clearly the woods
are a place to be avoided. By the time we reach the third line of the verse
we are in the happy-sounding major when we realise it's nothing more than a
gathering of teddy-bears.

The contrast between happy major and sad minor is pointed out explicitly in
the song "Every time we say goodbye".
--
ξ: ) Proud to be curly

Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 21, 3:27 pm, Curlytop <pvstownsend.zyx....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> willimek.danae.di...@t-online.de set the following eddies spiralling through

So it's a cliche of mid-20th-century popular music. So what? !

Cole Porter wrote of "a symphony by Strauss" (in "You're the Top").
It's unlikely that he had R. Strauss's Sinfonia Domestica or
Alpensinfonie in mind -- are we to take lyricists' jabs at classical
music seriously?

[Curlytop]

Peter T. Daniels set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
continuum:

> Cole Porter wrote of "a symphony by Strauss" (in "You're the Top").
> It's unlikely that he had R. Strauss's Sinfonia Domestica or
> Alpensinfonie in mind -- are we to take lyricists' jabs at classical
> music seriously?

More likely one of Strauss' early symphonies, either the D Minor or the F
Minor. They are neither numbered nor named.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Apr 22, 2:26 pm, Curlytop <pvstownsend.zyx....@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
> continuum:
>
> > Cole Porter wrote of "a symphony by Strauss" (in "You're the Top").
> > It's unlikely that he had R. Strauss's Sinfonia Domestica or
> > Alpensinfonie in mind -- are we to take lyricists' jabs at classical
> > music seriously?
>
> More likely one of Strauss' early symphonies, either the D Minor or the F
> Minor. They are neither numbered nor named.

Were they known to exist in 1934?

A large Broadway theater holds as many as 1500 people. How many in the
audience, for the entire original run of *De-Lovely*, could have heard
of such things?

The Strauss that would have come to mind at that time was more likely
Johann.

[greg lee]

On Apr 15, 8:20 am, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"

<evgm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> greg lee wrote:
> > On Apr 12, 9:46 am, "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)"
> > <evgm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>> On Apr 11, 1:04 pm, willimek.danae.di...@t-online.de wrote:
> >>>> Major and Minor - the Strebetendenz-Theory
> >>>> If you perceive a major chord, you normally identify with the will "Yes, I want to...". If you perceive a minor chord, you identify normally with the will "I don't want anymore...". If you play the minor chord softly, you connect the will "I don't want anymore..." with a feeling of sadness.
> >>> What utter rot.
> >> AMEN!  (The basic premise of the question is incorrect - one can cite
> >> any number of examples that refute it.)
>
> > Didn't Louis B. Mayer say something like?:
>
> > - Because MGM is a major motion picture company that makes only major
> > motion pictures, no theme song of any MGM movie will ever be in a
> > minor key.
>
> > Isn't "Tara's Theme" and "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" in major key?
>

> So?  (I have no idea what "Tara's Theme" is...

Well, frankly my dear, you had better give a......

[EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)]

Of course, Peter! (But haven't you noticed how ignorant people are
about historical facts, even during their own lifetimes?)

[EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)]

Of course I associate "Tara" with "Gone With the Wind", but do you
consider movie music to be part of the mainstream classical repertoire?
(Aside from a few composers like Korngold and Copeland who wrote in
both genres?)

[John W Kennedy]

Don't forget those from Ralph Vaughn Williams to Howard Shore who have
used the same music both ways.

But that's beside the point. At best you're distinguishing between
Kunstmusik and Gebrauchmusik, and what on Earth has that to do with
scales and modes?

--
John W Kennedy
"The first effect of not believing in God is to believe in anything...."
-- Emile Cammaerts, "The Laughing Prophet"

[willimek.d...@t-online.de]

In addition to my last post, I am announcing that the English translation of our work "Musik und Emotionen - Studien zur Strebetendenz-Theorie" is now published:

Music and Emotions - Research on the Theory of Musical Equilibration

You can get it free at the link:

http://www.willimekmusic.de/music-and-emotions.pdf

Bernd Willimek

[Mort]

Dear Bernd,

Thank you very much for sharing your wonderful work with us. That is
very kind of you indeed.

I shall read it as soon as time permits, and look forward to gaining new
insights, both as a music lover and as a Physician.

Danke schön.



Best regards,

Mort (Linder)