Telegraph: A land without music? Parry, Holst and Elgar to you, Schmitz
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6.10.19
By Boris Johnson
Of all the wounding things that foreigners have said about the
English people, it is hard to think of an insult more savage than
that directed at this country in 1904. They have called us
perfidious. They have called us a nation of shopkeepers. They have
said that we are in love with our nannies. Nowadays they tell us
that we are the fattest, drunkest people in Europe, and that our
children leave primary school with the vaguest understanding of
reading and writing.
At all these barbs, we just take a deep breath. But when a German
critic called Oscar Adolf Hermann Schmitz composed a dithyramb of
abuse of the English cultural scene, just over 100 years ago, he
included a jibe from which we have never really recovered. It
stung. It made us blink like puppies suddenly kicked, and until now
we have never had the nerve to fire back at Schmitz -- because we
have a terrible feeling that he may have been on to something.
England, he said, is Das Land Ohne Musik.
Since this is nowadays -- thanks to Labour's abolition of modern
languages -- a land without German, I will translate. England is
the country without music, said Schmitz, and in his verdict on our
attainments he was, for a German, quite mild. In the 1840s, the
German poet Heinrich Heine had been on a tour of England, and had
soaked up quite a lot of the early Victorian cultural scene: the
wife crunching something out on the upright piano, the chap in
whiskers yodelling over her shoulder.
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Teufel! said the German. Mein Gott! "These people have no ear
either for rhythm or music and their unnatural passion for piano
playing and singing is all the more repulsive. Nothing on Earth is
more terrible than English music," said the shell-shocked aesthete,
"except English painting."
And how have we reacted to these teutonic assaults, my friends? I
am afraid we have responded with more or less complete
acquiescence. We cough. We shuffle and we hang our heads. We look
at the world's top composers, the real megastars, and in the first
rank we see nothing but Germans or Austrians: Bach, Beethoven,
Mozart. And when we get on to the second rank we find Wagner,
Haydn, Rachmaninov, Shostakovitch, Mahler, Brahms, Verdi, Puccini,
Mendelssohn and so on (extend the list as you like).
Where are our lads? What was going on in this country from about
1700 to 1900? There may have been plenty of Thomas Hardy-style
scraping of fiddles and stamping of feet, and there may have been
plenty of peasant lasses hitching up their skirts and dancing round
the barn. But where is it now? How much of it has been recorded and
how many original English compositions, dating from that period
could you expect to find in a record store in Berlin?
It seems there was one chap called Thomas Linley, who died
prematurely, in a boating accident, in 1777, and whose death was
keenly lamented by Mozart. But it is stretching things to blame
boating accidents for our failure to produce a first-rank composer
from the entire romantic or classical period.
In our despair we turn to the deep socio-economic explanations.
Perhaps it was our usual vice of snobbery; perhaps the English did
not esteem the composers of music in the way they were esteemed on
the Continent. Perhaps our monarchs spent too much time hunting or
rogering to think it worth sponsoring the creation of great art.
Or perhaps we were simply too good at literature (where, of course,
we have a series of heavyweight champs), and too blessed in our
freedom of expression, so that artistic temperaments did not feel
the necessity to sublimate their feelings in music or painting.
It sounds like a feeble excuse, doesn't it? Whatever the cause, we
have tended to acknowledge the dreadful truth of Schmitz's insult,
and in 1964 the critic Colin Wilson said that "much English music
has the insipid flavour of a BBC variety orchestra playing an
arrangement of a nursery rhyme". English music has been the subject
of reflexive embarrassment, like Morris dancing. We associate it
instinctively with corduroy-jacketed professors in sandals, their
spectacles fixed with Sellotape, descanting madrigals before Sunday
lunch.
For children of my generation, the idea of great English composers
was about as plausible as the idea of great English tennis players
or the great English Austin Allegro. And as soon as you put it like
that, you start to wonder whether we are, in fact, falling prey to
the characteristic English vice, and doing ourselves down.
Because at the very moment that Schmitz was composing his insult,
English music was on the verge of an extraordinary inflorescence,
an explosion of talent that we have tended to forget -- precisely
because it is English. Parry and Vaughan Williams were founding the
Royal College of Music, and leading British composers away from the
German tendency, and there are many who would say that, for the
rest of the 20th century, we left the Germans standing. This week
in Dorchester on Thames, in the ancient and beautiful abbey with
its perfect acoustics, I humbly invite you listen to the works of
Vaughan Williams and Elgar and Holst, Britten and WH Reed, Algernon
Ashton, Gerald Finzi and many others. There will be the BBC concert
orchestra, Julian Lloyd Webber, and above all there will be the
chance to test for yourselves the truth of what Schmitz had to say.
Now I must be frank with you. I am just the president of this
English Music Festival, the first and quite possibly the last of
its kind. I cannot vouch for the genius of all the pieces you may
hear. Though I love music, and though I passionately want more
music in schools, and more hymns, I should confess that I once
failed Grade One piano.
I leave it to my colleague Simon Heffer, who raves about this
stuff, and above all I hope to leave it to you to judge. But my
proposition is that England overtook Germany, in music, at almost
the moment Schmitz spoke; and even if you don't go for Vaughan
Williams, let me end with a knock-down argument. What would you
rather take from the 20th century: the Beatles and the Rolling
Stones, or Nina Hagen's 99 Red Balloons? Put that in your pipe and
smoke it, Schmitz.
Boris Johnson is MP for Henley
Comment on this story
Comments
Dear Boris, I returned home last night after rehearsing Vaugham
Williams' Sea Symphony which the Aldeburgh and Framlingham Phoenix
Choirs will sing in Snape Maltings next month. This is magnificent
music and you are right that we are too fond of pushing our very
talented composers into the background. This years Proms had
Shostakovitch from floor to ceiling and we could start with a
better balance to that festival's programme. It is an English or
British event after all. The great 20th Century revival was
recognised elsewhere and Sir Arthur Bliss (yes, an Aussie), when
asked in the USA to what he attributed it said that it stemmed from
the re awakening of the earlier era of Purcell and his
contemporaries. We have had many great composers over the years so
good luck to your Festival and long may it thrive.
Posted by John Lockyer on October 19, 2006 3:18 PM
Oh yeah? And, like, the Germans don't have a sense of humour!
Posted by John Walker on October 19, 2006 3:12 PM
EH?
Posted by David Thomas on October 19, 2006 3:11 PM
I often wonder what so called serving members of parliament
actually do for their constituents, considering this fellow has
time to write such meaningless and unimportant drivel for a
newspaper.
Don't you have anything better to do, Boris?
Posted by jack on October 19, 2006 2:38 PM
What an absurd idea that a nation's music could actually "overtake"
that of another - quite narrow-minded, I believe. And, by the way,
the (lamentable!) song "99 Luftballons" was performed by Nena, not
Nina Hagen.
Posted by Henning Ohlf, Kiel, Germany on October 19, 2006 2:36 PM
Dear Boris,
Now I know why you are shadowing Higher Education
dithyramb
I had to look it up
My shorter OED tells me it is a Bacchanalean song - writing having
this character.
Boris and Bacchus - I like it!
Posted by Brian Davies on October 19, 2006 2:29 PM
Hands off BoJo - even when he gets it a bit wrong it is always an
excellent piece.
I'm a bit I-know-what-I-like on music and art - but better to have
more of it in our schools any day than grow up a nation of
philistines.
Even if attempts to imbue him with musical talents failed Boris
still advocates a lot more music in schools - because how else do
you find and nurture real talent?
What we really need on these pages is a massive argument as to
whether all those 60s Beatles songs still seem so clever today - or
were simply catchy rubbish that has dated to that era? BoJo's
Beatle mop suggests he's a fan!
Posted by simon coulter on October 19, 2006 2:08 PM
Don´t worry this comes in the same category as "English weather",
it is generally believed that England is covered in fog and that it
rains most of the time.It may be of interest to hear that I once
read one of these wall charts entitled "European Composers"
accredited to England I believe were Dowland, Elgar and B.Britten
while on the German side, apart from Mr Bach and his friends were
numerous totally unheard of composers.As for the idea that the
Germans are a musical nation that is just another fallacy I am
sorry to say.
Posted by Peter B. Smith on October 19, 2006 2:05 PM
Whassup Boris? The boss put a gag on you? The week the US finally
realise that Iraq is not quite going to Dubya's plan and his Dad's
advisors are telling him so. And what about the boy George's tax
policy? Ah well, a change is as good as a rest they say.
Posted by Steve B on October 19, 2006 1:21 PM
Holst, Elgar, Handel, Finzi. Not names whose Englishness
immediately strikes one.
Posted by John Clarkson on October 19, 2006 1:21 PM
All hail to Boris for this admirable article. Schmitz regrettably
and clearly knew little of our foremost 18th Century composers, eg
Boyce and Arne (the latter whom Beethoven greatly admired). Also,
Boris does not mention that it was we British ourselves who
demolished interest in our own music during much of the 20th
Century - Vaughan Williams himself was to a large extent shelved by
the BBC and other musical authorities as being "too English".
Thanks to such conductors as Richard Hickox, English music is now
very much to the fore!
Posted by Les Jones on October 19, 2006 1:14 PM
You forgot Sir Edmund Rubbra, Boris - a scandalously neglected
composer. Try any of his symphonies on Chandos. Thank you, Richard
Hickox.
Posted by Tom MacFarlane on October 19, 2006 12:58 PM
The fact is that for 200 years, England produced no composers
worthy of note. The reasons for this are as unclear to those of us
who know what we are talking about, as they are to Boris.
Posted by Robin Gosnall on October 19, 2006 12:51 PM
The man's a treasure, as is the work of Ivor Gurney whom he does
not mention.
Posted by Peter Wells on October 19, 2006 12:48 PM
This is a first for me. Never have I written to a newspaper; the
urge to see my name in print is not my motive. It is to
congratulate Boris on this article and applaud his defense of
English music. But in particular, for his use of words that I need
to look-up. As a 78-year-old, one is never too old to learn and
vocabulary is a basis for succinct and informed opinion. My love of
words is second only to a love of music.
Posted by James Perry on October 19, 2006 12:36 PM
Surely Handel is our greatest "English" composer?
Posted by geoff wright on October 19, 2006 12:21 PM
Not one of you heard of Bax? Ah well, that says it all.
Posted by Denis Macourt on October 19, 2006 12:13 PM
What? You think that a nation that dotes on Wagner is in any way
qualified to critise *our* musical talents???!
Posted by Al on October 19, 2006 12:04 PM
Boris, I remember reading a learned article, the name of the author
has unfortunately escaped me, which blames the dearth of English
and Scottish musicians and artists on the Reformation which
isolated us from the Italian influences, where modern music and art
was developed. Both England and Scotland have good traditional
music, one only has to listen to Gaelic songs, which could have
been developed by a British Mozart or Bach as major composers did
in other countries. Mozart was heavily influenced by the Italians
as was Bach but the Italian influence did not unfortunately reach
our shores until much later. My favourite Briton is Elgar but he is
not highly regarded outside of the english language area, which is
unfortunately true of Sir Arthur Sullivan and his librettist
Gilbert.
Posted by Colin Gillies on October 19, 2006 12:04 PM
You have all forgotten: all the good stuff in England started with
Tallis.
Posted by Steve Grum on October 19, 2006 12:02 PM
Well done again Boris, for too long our composers have languished
in the shadows. Give me Elgar and Vaughan Williams any time!
Posted by Mrs K Roberts on October 19, 2006 12:02 PM
The Germans adore David Hasselhoff's singing. I
think that is game set and match to the UK, no matter how bad pop
music gets in future.
Posted by Andrew Ian Dodge on October 19, 2006 12:00 PM
Dear Boris Johnson, how wise to omit the names of Britten and
Walton, although I had to swallow hard at the mention of that old
plagiarist Vaughan Williams ahead of Purcell. You might perhaps
have added to the list of Britain's relative cultural failures
English wine, something we do not have to suffer in France as we
listen to our Faure, Franck, Debussy et al.
Posted by john murray on October 19, 2006 11:47 AM
I would like to sit in that ancient and beautiful abbey with its
perfect acoustics but instead of the 20th century British program
you propose, the musicians played Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn or
Handel. I and I think many others would be more likely to attend.
Posted by David William ffynch on October 19, 2006 11:44 AM
What, no mention of John Rutter?
Posted by Jez Booker on October 19, 2006 11:42 AM
I've heard this kind of garbage from foreigners before. If it's not
music, it's food, beer or sex. Boris should really try listening to
Classic FM, they know the value of great English composers and
don't get bogged down in modernist claptrap that lacks rhythm,
melody and most importantly, an audience. My heart always went out
to George Butterworth who wrote the strangely prophetic "Banks of
the Green Willow" before being topped in WW1. Some loss, if his
music is anything to go by.
Posted by Clifton Wray on October 19, 2006 11:40 AM
What Britain lacks in musical composition it amply makes up with
musical chauvinism. To get back to 1904, what the still young
Richard Strauss alone was doing at this point, and would continue
to do until his death, is enough in itself to overwhelm all British
20th century music. That's without counting the rest of the 20th
century Germans, the French, the Russians, the Scandinavians or
even the Americans.
Posted by HVT on October 19, 2006 11:34 AM
In reply to Boris Johnson`s article about English music, let us
never forget the English composers of the Baroque period: Henry
Purcell, who composed the first opera (Dido & Aeneas), his brother
Daniel Purcell, Charles Avison, John Blow, William Boyce and Thomas
Arne. Also, since the good Boris included Gustav Holst, we must
include the great Mr. Handel. These composers wrote wonderful music
which is a joy to hear, particularly when played on the original
instruments for which they were written.
Posted by Trevor Lindlar on October 19, 2006 11:33 AM
"Since this is nowadays thanks to Labour's abolition of modern
languages a land without German." Yes, how we all hark back to the
80s and early 1990s and the golden age of British Education and
Tory efforts to ensure we were all comfortable in at least one of
the languages of our European friends and neighbours! Sorry Boris
-plenty of ammo to attack Labour with, but you need to stand on
better ground than education.
Posted by Patrick on October 19, 2006 11:26 AM
I do wish we could stop making music a nationalist football. Of
course we should be proud of our English musical achievements and
of course we ought to be the first people in the world to enjoy
Elgar and Vaughan Williams. But it is foolish to set up invidious
comparisons with (say) French or German music. Each of us has his
musical favourites, but who in his right mind would compile a 'top
20' for himself? When you are listening to a well-loved piece, that
is the one you want to hear at the moment - you don't say to
yourself, 'Ah! - good old 'Enigma Variations'; who cares for
Beethoven's Fifth?'
Posted by John Small on October 19, 2006 10:39 AM
Here in Dublin, I have been led to believe that begrudgery was the
Irish vice. Clearly the Irish cannot compare with the English (or
is it the British?) in this respect! What a dreary and pompous
collection of comments! And what has happened to the English sense
of humour? Perhaps that was always a myth. There is only one answer
to these churlish comments and that is for President Johnson to
preside over a successful weekend of English Music in
Dorchester-on-Thames. Good luck to all involved.
Posted by Gerald Morgan on October 19, 2006 10:39 AM
Boris has, once again, hit a nail on the head. The sniffy comments
by a musical intelligentsia masquerading as champions of the
repertoire by side-lining British composers, give the game away by
pronouncing Classic FM as a bastion of the appreciative. Classic
FM, valuable as it is, only plays 'the best bits'. As for those
Germans, nobody mentioned Webern and for the French no-one
expressed a preference for Boulez. Yet British composers abound,
even if they were Irish or 'became' Irish like Sir Arnold Bax. If
you want to discover composers who really deserve a wider audience,
look at the playlist of conductor Vernon Handley, surely the
greatest unsung hero of the British 'classics'. Nobody who has
heard even the first few bars of E J Moeran's Symphony in G minor
(or has that picture of Vaughan-Williams in tweeds, with trouser
tops nestling comfortably under his armpits in their heads) can
possibly say Britain has not made her mark in music!
Posted by Don Hoyle on October 19, 2006 10:32 AM
"Dithyramb?" My first decent English teacher told me that big words
could not hide a paucity of ideas. Why does Johnson get away with
writing this rubbish? Can the Telegraph really do no better than
this dismal twit? And as for the Beatles, no-one with even half a
brain likes them - the most overrated band in history.
Posted by John Austin on October 19, 2006 10:24 AM
Boris, I am surprised that Simon Heffer has some redeeming features
in his taste of music. I understand his taste in politics is to
support the extreme right UKIP.
Posted by Rosalind on October 19, 2006 10:11 AM
We could make music as good as anyone in those days, but we had
other things to do, like run an empire. Our talented people were
spread far and wide into other things. The fat Germans had nothing
better to do than write dots after all their beer and sausages.
When there are real things to do, writing music is a trivial past
time and is just hiding away from reality in fantasy land.
Posted by Jack Souter on October 19, 2006 10:07 AM
Hi Boris, Nina Hagen didn't sing 99 red balloons, "Nina" did. Nina
Hagen is a scary German woman and "nina" was quite fit in her time
and was good friends with kim wilde. Thanks.
Posted by Tom Mansfield on October 19, 2006 10:04 AM
Nina Hagen did NOT record 99 Red Balloons!!! It was a different
artist by the name of Nena (yes, the lady with the most famous
armpits in pop music).
Posted by David Blunkett on October 19, 2006 10:03 AM
Mr Johnson, normally a man I respect and admire, stepped over the
boundary line of decency with this morning's comment. Germany has,
amongst other things of a musical nature, spawned the most
fantastic collection of punk rock music. As the UK's leading
authority on the Deutschpunk scene, I can categorically state that
Boris is wrong. German bands as diverse as: Loikaemie, Stage
Bottles, Poebel und Gesocks, The Shocks, Die Toten Hosen, Slime and
The Buttocks put their English counterparts to shame. Sadly
slagging off German music is the last taboo amongst
journalists/politicians. Deutschland punk ist nummer eins!
Posted by Bobby Smith on October 19, 2006 10:00 AM
Why are nations so keen to be better than others in whatever aspect
of life? Let the English take pleasure in savouring pop music and
football anthems and let the Germans launder their emotions
listening to Beethoven or Mahler. Do children get proper musical
education in the UK? I do not think so. So, how stressful it should
be for them to sit for at least three quarters of an hour and
listen attentively to a Beethoven quartet? Without being able to
listen to Beethoven, Prokofiev or Schoenberg (I don't mean to be
fond of them - just listen), no-one can compose decent classical
music. But why worry? They can do something else, can they not? Let
them do that something properly if not perfectly and that will do.
Incidentally, it is not the Germans who insist that Hamlet and
Richard III was not written by Shakespeare. It is Shakespeare's
fellow countrymen. Do take care of what you can really be proud of.
Posted by Alex on October 19, 2006 9:56 AM
There is lots of good German rock music, better than most of what
comes out of Britain these days. Of course, you never hear it on
the radio because it is in German. Have a listen to Rammstein, Die
Toten Hosen, Juli and Böhse Onkelz.
Posted by James Anderson on October 19, 2006 9:43 AM
Haydn in the second rank? Boris, the older I get, the more I
realise that he was as great as Mozart and his pupil Beethoven. But
England has a good 2nd division team (Elgar, VW, Britten,
Sullivan...) The mystery is why the Scots and Welsh have no major
composers! N.B. British poets and novelists lead the world!
Posted by Herbert G. on October 19, 2006 9:25 AM
Slightly bizarre article today even for Boris. What about Gilbert
and Sullivan - I am sure Boris could devote a whole page to them!
Posted by Carol Collier on October 19, 2006 9:17 AM
Listening to Choral Evensong from Truro Cathedral yesterday, the
searing beauty of words and music left me yet again thinking of how
one could translate this praise to the God of Love to children, in
particularly our state schools. Few of my piano students have been
to an orchestral concert - it may not be part of their parents'
experience and schools may not think it important to organise a
trip. I was fortunate to be brought up on the hymn book - because
of today's anti-Christian culture we don't teach hymns and
therefore sing inspiring literature. Music is electronic keyboards,
school orchestra at best, democratic popular sounds at the average.
We would need to recover a belief in the supremacy of beauty and
quality of design which of course is what we mean when you call
Bach, Mozart and Beethoven 'great'. The choirboys doubtless listen
to and maybe enjoy the culture which thinks the Beatles is 'great'
but at least they have had an experience of another less accessible
culture. My generation has probably failed the majority of children
by not having a conviction about the power of great Art to
transform their souls. A change in the school music syllabuses
wouldn't be everything but it would be a start in reducing the
mindless shreiking that we hear on our streets every weekend.
Posted by David Berdinner on October 19, 2006 9:16 AM
Staggering! Not Boris, but the respondents. It's incredible that a
light-hearted invite to listen to some music could be dissected as
if it were serious academic or political research. Get a life, have
fun when you can and stop nit-picking and whining like a bunch of
New Labour Party activists.
Posted by Nicky on October 19, 2006 9:14 AM
A prime reason for the lack of great English Classical and Romantic
music was simply the lack of patronage. Austria and Germany were
divided into small states each with a ruling prince, Count or
whatever and each with his own house orchestra and composer.
Posted by Basil Howitt on October 19, 2006 9:13 AM
You're priceless Boris. Get Cameron to implement tax cuts as
proposed, you get my vote (even though you are an EU party). I am
not one for the classical composers so will not comment. But if we
talk about modern day popular music we are in a league of our own.
It is only the mighty USA that serves up great artists of modern
music, that have done it better. When you think from the early
sixties bands, and artists, such as the Beatles, Stones, Kinks,
Moody Blues, Who, Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, then we are on par with
our US cousins.Then we have great music from 70s up till the
present day. For me the wonderfull music of Cat Stevens, Joy
Division, Coldplay and many others, are matched only by Tracy
Chapman, Marvin Gaye, Al Greene, The Doors, Nirvana. Yes I think we
can be proud of the music that us, and the USA, have given the
world.
Posted by banachech on October 19, 2006 9:00 AM
We are the robots!
Posted by Kraftwerk on October 19, 2006 8:21 AM
Nina Hagen did have rather fetching armpits...
Posted by David on October 19, 2006 8:18 AM
I found your article extremely interesting and entertaining....but
you showed where your expertise lies with a slip-up in your last
paragraph. I think you´ll find that "Nena" - and not Nina Hagen -
was responsible for "99 Red Balloons"!!!!
Posted by Phil Clark on October 19, 2006 8:12 AM
Like most other things, Boris knows very little about music as
well. How he was annointed President beats me. I wonder if he sings
in the bath or just mumbles the last Tory Manifesto? Boris failed
to mention two of the greatest English composers. Henry(washes
whitest, as we used to say in the school choir)Purcell, who gave us
amongst other things Nympths and Shepards, a great tear jerker sung
by Manchester Schools Choir in '36. And of course Handel; OK he was
born German, but He gave us the Messiah, the staple of many an
amateur choir. Boris did mention Elgar; who gave us Pomp and
Circumstance and Holtz who gave us The Planets inc Land of Hope and
Glory, the unofficial national anthem, which we can thankfully
adopt when Britain ditches the monarchy and at last becomes a
republic. All stirring stuff which should appeal to his basic Tory
instincts.
Posted by swatantra nandanwar on October 19, 2006 8:08 AM
I have to hand it to you yet again Boris. You've highlighted a
British societal failure that can't be pinned on NuLabour.
Even us Old Labour types can plead not guilty. We weren't around in
those times to dumb down music education, although our spiritual
predecessors would have been thumping tunes out on chapel pianos.
Perhaps closer listening to their work will reveal the Andrew Lloyd
Webber of their age and thus give us ammo. against the Germans.
Posted by Malcolm Williamson on October 19, 2006 7:43 AM
You get paid for writing this rubbish?
Posted by Fred Gann on October 19, 2006 7:34 AM
1. Why no mention of Henry Purcell?
2. There was also the small matter, which Mr Johnson fails to note,
of the fact that Britain was in his period home to the industrial
and scientific revolutions, and therefore to a significant degree
inventing the modern world. British energy was, as ever, directed
towards pragmatic goals. So the Germans had the edge in music - but
in what else?
Posted by Harry Dash on October 19, 2006 6:55 AM
One of the reasons why it is such a pleasure and such fun to read
Boris's articles is that whereas on ninety-nine percent of
occasions he is blessed with a lucidity, insight and incisiveness
of which it is hard these days to find the equal, on the remaining
one percent of occasions, he strays so far from logic and reason
that one begins to understand why in fact he has not yet become
leader of his party and, regrettably, probably never will. This is
one such occasion.
It is probably a fair comment to say that Germanic music has been a
little in the doldrums since the end of the 19th century, but to
propose that in any sense the vacuum was filled by the English is
little short of preposterous. Boris is such a fine fellow that one
would hesitate to accuse him of 'having a thing about the French',
but we see that he appears to have either forgotten, or
alternatively to have repressed, the fact that the glorious music
of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms was replaced in the
late 19th Century by the equally glorious music of Fauré, Debussy,
Ravel, Poulenc and Messien. And while Boris (somewhat questionably)
places Rachmaninov in the second group of composers (he must like
piano concertos) and pays similar homage to Shostakovitch, he
appears to have forgotten entirely the names of Stravinski and
Prokoviev. Such musical repression makes it easy to laud the
virtues of our generally 5th-rate composers of the time. In this
respect, Boris is a little like an English football fan who
celebrates the occasional victory against Germany as an occasion
equivalent to England winning the World cup (and conveniently
forgets our disasters against lesser footballing nations such as
Macedonia and Croatia).
Yes, it is true that the English composers of that time
occasionally produced 'great' music. The Planets is one such
example as is Elgar's cello concerto: and Gerald Finzi did write
some lovely songs. Though the rest of Holst's output (and let us
recall that he was genetically more Swedish than English) is as
little worthy of mention as is that of Elgar. It is also true that
English popular music of the sixties unquestionably led the world.
But, we're supposed to be talking about classical music, Boris, and
reminding us of the successes of the Beatles and the Rolling Stones
will not convince us that either the music of Vaughan-Williams or
(God help us) that of Benjamin Britten can fill the concert halls
of Europe to equal capacity as the music of the Germanic masters or
their French and Russian successors.
So, with respect Boris, this is an area in which many readers will
feel you are clearly taking an 'anti-Europe' position. Though, in
another sense, credit to you - at least you're sticking up for
Blighty.
Posted by John Gosling on October 19, 2006 6:30 AM
Q - What would you rather take from the 20th century: the Beatles
and the Rolling Stones, or Nina Hagen's 99 Red Balloons?
A - Trick question, surely? There is no known recording of 99 Red
Balloons by 70's punk rocker and former Slit, Nina Hagen. The
chart-topping annoyance and anti-Nuke protest song was instead a
one-hit wonder (outside Germany at least) for Gabriele Susanne
Kerner AKA 'Nena' and her band in February 1983.
Posted by Neil Johnson on October 19, 2006 6:20 AM
My word! The things that Boris says to stay in the public eye!
He does however have a point. British music at the turn of the 20th
century did make extraordinary leaps and bounds. A matter that
regrettably is none too obvious today. Well OK, there is Rutter.
And a few people might have heard of Arnold.
Of course there is some discomfort including Delius in the
scorecard of great British composers as he was German. And again
Elgar always complained that his music was more appreciated by the
Germans than the English except for that one-off Land Of Slopes and
Stories.
Prior to this time it is odd that there was a dearth of British
composers. Do we rope in WS Gilbert to try and redress this?
Perhaps not.
Even so, in the dim past of history at least the British were truly
appreciative of decent music even if they couldn't generate any.
Consider the love extended to Haydn, that Handel could do no wrong
and the such.
Today of course it is a desert. Certainly the popularity of the
Proms is encouraging. There is a small but active group of British
that do follow decent music. The popularity of Classic FM is a
measure of that.
But as usual the schools are found wanting. Cultural deserts where
anything of use is neglected, especially music. I shudder to think
how much art the kiddiwinks are exposed to.
Posted by richard on October 19, 2006 6:19 AM
What about Cipriani Potter? He wrote ten symphonies and was very
much admired by Wagner who conducted several of them. Elgar was
very much a major composer by 1904. How about Standford (all right,
he was Irish but very much part of the musical tradition of this
country).
This is an old jibe about British music that should have long ago
been put to rest. British Opera, choral, orchestral and chamber
music are now second to none. Oh, I almost forgot, a little Purcell
anyone? Or maybe a little William Boyce
Posted by Howard McClelan on October 19, 2006 6:05 AM
I think the high point of English music was reached in the 1960's
and 70's with the advent of the football crowd massed choirs,
singing 'here we go, here we go, here we go' such poigniant lyrics
dont you think? We must not also forget our wonderful boom bang a
bang Eurovision Song entries.
Posted by Roger Coasby on October 19, 2006 4:56 AM
Whew! You made it through a whole column and didn't upset anybody.
Good Job.
Posted by M. Fernandez on October 19, 2006 4:49 AM
Are we short of subject matter?
Please take a look at the passing last week of the Unlawful
Internet Gambling Enforcement Act in the US in direct contradiction
to a WTO ruling last year in favour of Antigua & Barbuda. This
unashamedly protectionist act, utterly contrary to British
interests and in breach of the accepted principles of international
trade, must surely deserve coverage beyond the business pages.
Posted by James on October 19, 2006 3:25 AM
Problem #1 and the most pertinent: You speak of *English* music as
if it can be identified separately. At least say *British*,
accepting the reality of the "hybrid vigour" that contributes so
much to British 'greatness'.
It's like calling the Union Jack *English*. A complete nonsense.
However, patriotism and parochialism really have no place in a
world where greatness can be found everywhere if one cares to seek
it out.
No doubt though, and as always, the concepts are convenient tools
in the field of political manoeuverings.
I write as one who has a broad pespective on these matters: An
educated, well travelled, Welsh born Australian of mixed European
ancestry.
Posted by Nigel Drake on October 19, 2006 3:06 AM
The British produced Sullivan, who very seldom composed a poor tun.
Who cares if you didn't produce so many 'serious'composers who
hardly ever deigned to write a good one?
Posted by Jeremy Buxton on October 19, 2006 3:04 AM
Beatles vs Nena, I'll give you. But the bushy-oxtered
temptress is not the only Teutonic musician of
recent years. Can, Neu!, Faust, Trio and, above all,
Kraftwerk have contributed much to the pop canon;
David Bowie and Donna Summer produced much of
their best music during their German sojourns.
Posted by Tim Footman on October 19, 2006 2:53 AM
Three cheers for Boris Johnson. No better man to lead us on to
greater heights in higher education. Under his inspired leadership
Harvard will soon be giving way to Oxford (or even Cambridge) among
the world's top universities. A chance at long last to think of
England in terms of the highest artistic excellence. No doubt Boris
Johnson will be leading the campaign for Parry's 'Jerusalem' for
our underperforming and unmusical footballers and rugby players. I
withdraw all previous criticisms of him. But, gentleman as he is,
surely a word in favour of the lady who has made these musical
delights possible, namely, Em(ma) Marshall. What a lady she must be
to put such an English Music Festival together. The English must
now take their opportunity to rejoice in their own cultural
achievements or forever hang their heads in shame. Even I shall
make an effort to get from Dublin to the rural depths of
Oxfordshire.
Posted by Gerald Morgan on October 19, 2006 1:07 AM
Josep Vilanova
On 23/1/07 03:04, in article
Pine.NEB.4.64.07...@panix1.panix.com, "Premise Checker"
<che...@panix.com> wrote:
> Nina Hagen's 99 Red Balloons? Put that in your pipe and
> smoke it, Schmitz.
Did Nina Hagen sing 99 Red Balloons?
j
John W. Kennedy
most important composer who ever lived, I don't see why she should hang
her head in the first place.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
TareeDawg
news:Pine.NEB.4.64.07...@panix1.panix.com...
> A land without music? Parry, Holst and Elgar to you, Schmitz
Very true. For the 19th century, in which for the early part of it, the
German speaking nations gave us such romantic sop. Good sop mind you, but
sop. As for the 20th century, England has more than made up for it, in every
genre, so much so, we could give Germany 50 very good composers and artists
and bands, and not even miss them.
What goes around, comes around, Schmitz, you envious creep.
Ray H
Taree, NSW
Don Phillipson
news:Pine.NEB.4.64.07...@panix1.panix.com...
> A land without music? Parry, Holst and Elgar to you, Schmitz
>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=XMOBFT2E2OPM3QFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/opinion/2006/10/19/do1901.xml
>By Boris Johnson
RMC readers should know Boris Johnson is a journalist
and keen concert-goer, currently a Conservative MP with
special responsibility for education.
The current British government has announced the
intention that by 2012 or thereabouts every child in
every public school should have the opportunity to
learn an instrument and, sooner than that, there
will be choral singing lessons in every school. This
programme was skeptically discussed in the BBC
radio programme Music Matters Jan. 21
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/musicmatters/pip/4oog0/
BJ did not mention it. I do not know why.
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
alanwa...@aol.com
I would say it was and remains a land "not very interested" in music
which is not, of course, the fault of the composers of that land. But
it was Germany who gave Elgar great exposure not just England, and the
same of Dame Ethel Smyth.
As to the hope of every child having the opportunity to play an
instrument it is my view that this is just political rhetoric and will
never happen. Even in my lifetime, music opportunities in English
schools have been decimated by a succession of politicians. It was grim
in my youth, unless you wished to play the recorder, and today in many
English schools there is no such thing as a music department and I am
not talking about the classical genre: ANY musical genre.
The biggest acts of musical vandalism have consistently been performed
by the BBC who for years have ignored skilled English artists in favour
of European stars. I would remind everyone that at one time there was
a Training Orchestra for young musicians to get the valuable actual
live PLAYING experience that everyone needs. It is one thing in the
Conservatoire, quite another out on the road. The Conservatoire does
not have something going out live heading for a train wreck.
There were the "little bands": the BBC Midland Light Orchestra, the BBC
West of England Light Orchestra (the latter gave a Vaughan Williams
world premiere which is STILL unrecorded). They played many English
composers, including many never performed today. These were bands of
between 30-40 who were able to take performance into school and public
halls that could not accommodate a full sized symphony orchestra and
they did so regularly, taking music to medium sized communities who
would otherwise never have heard a live professional orchestra. "That
performance of La Boutique Fantastque was recorded earlier this year in
a concert given by the BBC West of England Light Orchestra in
Launceston Town Hall. The conductor was Frank Cantell". Yeah, right.
But there won't be anyone there doing it now.
All were ruthlessly axed despite a campaign to save them headed by
Arthur Bliss and other major English musical figures. Upon defeat, he
remarked to me: "Oh well, Caliban is in charge now."
England, in my opinion, has never placed any real value upon musical
culture. The richness, for example, of traditional folk matches that
of any country in the world but it was never taught in my day and I
very much doubt that it is now. As a member of the EFDSS I know how
hard they struggle to make the slightest impact in persuading people
that there is a rich musical heritage and that it is worth exploring,
particularly in the educational field.
Fortunately, recordings have come to the aid of these English composers
but who is actually playing them on the concert platform in 2007? And
why was it necessary for Richard Itter to found Lyrita and record works
which appear to have created interest among some on this list?
Mr Schmitz may be wrong about the composers but he was actually right
about this aspect of a "land without music" in my opinion. It remains
so.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
alanwa...@aol.com
PS: There is an English virtuoso recorder player who, either by his own
commission or by composers just writing for him, has increased the
modern repertoire for his instrument by several hundred pieces.
I suppose he ought to be well known on that account but certainly not
in England, nor possibly elsewhere either.
TareeDawg
news:1169584047.8...@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
He was right, speaking of the 19th century. Under poverty, and the low
expectations given to many under the Victorian yoke, simple tunes were
allowed the masses.
But coming to the 20th century, all of what I can make of your general
thrust, is that it is education that is lacking. It happens to be lacking in
many other countries too, in ways that would take many mooned threads to
fully debate. What matters even more than musical training/education, from a
pragmatic viewpoint, is that science, numeracy, language and craft skills,
have also been eroded, partly by the Thatcher 'dog eat dog' march to rampant
capitalism, and the by product involving the cutting of public funding.
Wiped away was nearly one hundred years of workplace reforms, improved
standards for the workforce, by a generalised union movement, that, for all
its enormous collective effort, unfortunately, at its death, self-destructed
with far too many demands, and did vast damage with strikes. East Europeans
need to study this area, and context, of interest in far greater detail,
than voicing their immediate 'conversion' to rampant capitalism rants are
heard, once they have escaped into the 'cultural' West.
Meantime, added to the general mix of education going askew, is the
intervention of the arty-farty, soft liberal, approach to discipline, and
the maintainance of some of the basic ingredients of good education, in
their feeble attempts at the wholesale ditching of time honoured standards
of basic education, and the generalised gradual dumbing down of classrooms
to the level of the dumbest pupil, rather than the raising of the level to
the brightest pupils. This was partly the 'raison d'etre' for grammar
schools, technical schools and other schools, which were designed (not out
of any elitist reason) to accomodate the level at which each pupil could be
more comfortably suited.
In France, Germany and Austria (where I worked for some time), I never felt
overwhelmed by musical culture. On the contrary. Unless one considers Bert
Kaempfert and the like, accordion music, Michael jackson, and a large
percentage of what passes for music in the Eurovision Song Contest (what a
joke that is folks), to be cultural. In Graz, (and I worked there for some
time), I drew many blank responses from locals there, when eager and
bushy-tailed, I mentioned Bruckner almost breathlessly with excitement. All
I met with were blank stares, "Bruckner??? ... I think someone said someone
like him (similar name) was born near here ..". Some musical education
alright. Tell me about it.
Within yards of where we live in Taree (believe it or not) we have a small
traditional continental smallgoods shop called 'Mentges Master Meats', run
by Rudi and Jutta Mentges (700 year tradition). Lovely people, and visited
every week by all the German expats that ever there were in the area, and I
can guarantee to you that I have tried to mention classical music above the
din of the various dialects, and the 'The Hills are Alive' type of music,
and it all falls on deaf and indifferent ears. But their Thueringer sausages
are quite superb btw.
So nobody is going to kid me, that musical affairs are flourishing in
Western Continental Europe, if classical is what you generally want. It has
to be searched for, like everywhere else.
Britain has a wealth of musicians in all genres, and that includes composers
(but hey, they don't count do they? After all, all they do is sit on their
arse all day long just writing ideas down on paper, actually creating the
bloody music), but more importantly, much of the innovation in rock, popular
music has stemmed from the UK. The BBC SO, and the BBC in general, are still
regarded highly, even if they are not what they were. How can they be, when
their funding has been severely cut, because we need the billions to drop
bombs on Iraq, or whatever country it is felt necessary to drop bombs on.
Besides, we had all better get used to the pentatonic scale, because the
Chinese are taking over the world. And they can't possibly do worse than we
have done already.
Ray H
Taree, NSW
Ian Pace
"Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C1DB326A.C01%josepv...@hotmail.com...
was born in the town of Hagen. Nina Hagen was a fantastic post-punk singer
from East Germany (who escaped to the West).
Ian
Paul Ilechko
> "Josep Vilanova" <josepv...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> Did Nina Hagen sing 99 Red Balloons?
>>
> No, that was Nena (nee Gabrielle Susanne Kerner), who, confusingly enough,
> was born in the town of Hagen. Nina Hagen was a fantastic post-punk singer
> from East Germany (who escaped to the West).
I assume that you mean "fantastic" in the original sense of "not
believable" as opposed to the more common bastardized meaning of "really
good".
Michael Schaffer
Schmitz (of whom I had never heard, I always thought the phrase "Das
Land ohne Musik" came from Brahms - didn't he turn down an honorary
degree from Oxford because he saw no point in accepting a degree from a
country "without music"?) wrote from a point of view and in a mindset
that was extremely common in his time - not least in England, in which
racism and supremacist thinking was extremely widespread. But I am
slightly puzzled when people *today* answer him in the same style. Very
puzzled, actually. And also a little concerned.
England didn't play a role in the musical world for centuries before
the arrival of the Beatles. That doesn't make it a worse country as
such. THey have other hings they can be "proud of", if they need, like
the enormously effective way they sunjugated and exploited a lot of
people for a long time.
I don't think Schmitz was envious of England at all. But Hitler was. He
used them as his model for imperialist expansion. That didn't quite
work out, though.
TareeDawg
news:1169605786....@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com...
There were a whole host of composers around before the advent of the
Beatles, from Elgar onwards. It is just that the world has been conned, and
exploited, (at least many people think so), into thinking that classical
music starts with Beethoven and ends with Schumann. The fact is, is that it
doesn't.
As for Schmitz, to be honest, I don't think many have even heard of the man
before.
A truly musical nation, for the true adaption of folk influences, might well
be a country like Czechoslovakia, or Hungary. Germany was never a truly
musical nation, even though it tried. It never ever found anyone who could
reach up to the shoelaces of JS Bach, and was rather good at producing four
square, stolid, romantic mush for a short while. But as we all know, it
never lasted. Just like the 1000 year Reich never did.
And if there was one (actually there were many) thing that Britain could be
proud of, was standing up against, with France, against the sheer brutality
and senselessness of the country you came from.
Ray H
Taree, NSW
Michael Schaffer
I think you are a little confused about the chronology here. There are
a lot of "favorite" composers which get played all the time - including
in England where they play way more Beethoven than Elgar - which are
from before and after that time bracket.
BTW, who was it that "conned" the world so thoroughly? That would be
interesting to know.
> As for Schmitz, to be honest, I don't think many have even heard of the man
> before.
>
> A truly musical nation, for the true adaption of folk influences, might well
> be a country like Czechoslovakia, or Hungary. Germany was never a truly
> musical nation, even though it tried.
Now that's greenest envy in its purest form. I am puzzled by the need
for that.
> It never ever found anyone who could
> reach up to the shoelaces of JS Bach, and was rather good at producing four
> square, stolid, romantic mush for a short while. But as we all know, it
> never lasted. Just like the 1000 year Reich never did.
Nohing ever does. BTW, in case you didn't know, Bach was from Germany,
too.
> And if there was one (actually there were many) thing that Britain could be
> proud of, was standing up against, with France, against the sheer brutality
> and senselessness of the country you came from.
Nonsense. France didn't much standing up at all, and neither did
England. Without the constant help from their former colonies across
the Atlantic, the so-called British Empire would have ceased to exist
completely then and there.
And there were no lofty motives behind that. They just didn't want
Germany to become too powerful. After all, they had such a good time
exploiting all their colonies. They pretended to protect Poland but
pacted with another dictator who took a large chunk of it, and after
the war, Poland wasn't free at all. Oops.
But that's OK. History is violence, and it's all about power and
influence. It just gets a little silly when people pretend to hold the
moral high ground after exploiting other nations for centuries.
One would have thought that after the excesses of WWII, everybody would
have learned a lesson. Not so. England and France just continued in
their colonialist fashion, not for very long though, luckily.
> Ray H
> Taree, NSW
TareeDawg
You shouldn't just rashly assume that England only produced Elgar. For your
information, he is an acquired taste, even in England. Get your facts right.
And Bax, Tippett, Britten, Holst, RVW (to name even a very few) were around
a fair while before the Beatles. Which isn't knocking the Beatles, because
in Germany, after the war, you were too busy getting the Turks and Italians
to do the dirty work, you yourself wouldn't do. Talk about exploitation from
the dead and buried. And you wouldn't have had the innovation to produce the
Beatles either.
>> As for Schmitz, to be honest, I don't think many have even heard of the
>> man
>> before.
>>
>> A truly musical nation, for the true adaption of folk influences, might
>> well
>> be a country like Czechoslovakia, or Hungary. Germany was never a truly
>> musical nation, even though it tried.
>
> Now that's greenest envy in its purest form. I am puzzled by the need
> for that.
Maybe you should consider it, and truly think about it. The truth is often
hard to take.
>> It never ever found anyone who could
>> reach up to the shoelaces of JS Bach, and was rather good at producing
>> four
>> square, stolid, romantic mush for a short while. But as we all know, it
>> never lasted. Just like the 1000 year Reich never did.
>
> Nohing ever does. BTW, in case you didn't know, Bach was from Germany,
> too.
Did I say Bach wasn't?
>> And if there was one (actually there were many) thing that Britain could
>> be
>> proud of, was standing up against, with France, against the sheer
>> brutality
>> and senselessness of the country you came from.
>
> Nonsense. France didn't much standing up at all, and neither did
> England. Without the constant help from their former colonies across
> the Atlantic, the so-called British Empire would have ceased to exist
> completely then and there.
Of course Britain had friends. Just as you had the Italians, and several
other lackeys.
> And there were no lofty motives behind that. They just didn't want
> Germany to become too powerful. After all, they had such a good time
> exploiting all their colonies. They pretended to protect Poland but
> pacted with another dictator who took a large chunk of it, and after
> the war, Poland wasn't free at all. Oops.
>
> But that's OK. History is violence, and it's all about power and
> influence. It just gets a little silly when people pretend to hold the
> moral high ground after exploiting other nations for centuries.
But it is you who is the one who is always holding the moral high ground,
and frankly, it is quite perverse.
> One would have thought that after the excesses of WWII, everybody would
> have learned a lesson. Not so. England and France just continued in
> their colonialist fashion, not for very long though, luckily.
The excesses came from the extermination of 6 million jews, and 5 million
others. Britain and France had and has no need to learn anything from you,
or Germany.
Best you go back to the tribe you originated from, and started worshipping
trees again, because even then, you possessed some remnants of a
civilisation. You are not a typical post-war German, and I have met many and
have many friends (including a few I have no need of). They were the type of
ones who were only to glad to do their onerous duty for the Fatherland. As
has been said before here, many many times, you think, write, and act as a
Nazi. Maybe it isn't your fault, but you do very little to disguise the
fact.
PS: All anti-British and anti-French sympathies are considered a compliment
to most of us, and also in the colonies. It is bred from the envy and hate
you will always harbour to those who have always clearly proved your
betters.
Ray H
Taree, NSW
Michael Schaffer
So why is it that these composers get rarely played, while German
composers get played and recorded ad nauseam? You were talking about
some con or world conspiracy. Please elaborate.
> Which isn't knocking the Beatles, because
> in Germany, after the war, you were too busy getting the Turks and Italians
> to do the dirty work, you yourself wouldn't do.
I wasn't yet around then, but the reason so many Turks came into
Germany wasn't because "I" or "we" didn't want to work - there was
simply so much work because German economy boomed - once again.
But what does that have to do with knocking or not knocking the
Beatles? You do know where the Beatles had their first big sucesses,
right?
> Talk about exploitation from
> the dead and buried. And you wouldn't have had the innovation to produce the
> Beatles either.
Neither did "you".
> >> As for Schmitz, to be honest, I don't think many have even heard of the
> >> man
> >> before.
> >>
> >> A truly musical nation, for the true adaption of folk influences, might
> >> well
> >> be a country like Czechoslovakia, or Hungary. Germany was never a truly
> >> musical nation, even though it tried.
> >
> > Now that's greenest envy in its purest form. I am puzzled by the need
> > for that.
>
> Maybe you should consider it, and truly think about it. The truth is often
> hard to take.
I don't have to. I am not the one here having steam come out of his
ears because of a journalistic slight of over 100 years ago.
> >> It never ever found anyone who could
> >> reach up to the shoelaces of JS Bach, and was rather good at producing
> >> four
> >> square, stolid, romantic mush for a short while. But as we all know, it
> >> never lasted. Just like the 1000 year Reich never did.
> >
> > Nohing ever does. BTW, in case you didn't know, Bach was from Germany,
> > too.
>
> Did I say Bach wasn't?
Kind of sounds like that. With your limited grasp of German musical
culture, I thought I just point that out, for the sake of clarity. You
don't understand either that comparing later composers to Bach doesn't
make sense, because it's not a competition anyway, and the point of all
thelater development was innovativeness and discovery of new styles,
not imitating Bach or trying to "reach up to his shoelaces".
> >> And if there was one (actually there were many) thing that Britain could
> >> be
> >> proud of, was standing up against, with France, against the sheer
> >> brutality
> >> and senselessness of the country you came from.
> >
> > Nonsense. France didn't much standing up at all, and neither did
> > England. Without the constant help from their former colonies across
> > the Atlantic, the so-called British Empire would have ceased to exist
> > completely then and there.
>
> Of course Britain had friends. Just as you had the Italians, and several
> other lackeys.
Yes, those evil, evil Italians, another country which hasn't
contributed much to the musical heritage of Europe yet somehow managed
to con people into believing they actually did. All that nasty opera
stuff, right, who wants to listen to that, right?
Is that the same conspiracy as the one which managed to fool people to
this day into liking German music, or is it a different one?
But you can't really compare that nayway, at least not in a strategic
context. Italy was more of a burden than a good ally. While the US, on
the other hand, basically saved Britain from total disaster.
> > And there were no lofty motives behind that. They just didn't want
> > Germany to become too powerful. After all, they had such a good time
> > exploiting all their colonies. They pretended to protect Poland but
> > pacted with another dictator who took a large chunk of it, and after
> > the war, Poland wasn't free at all. Oops.
> >
> > But that's OK. History is violence, and it's all about power and
> > influence. It just gets a little silly when people pretend to hold the
> > moral high ground after exploiting other nations for centuries.
>
> But it is you who is the one who is always holding the moral high ground,
> and frankly, it is quite perverse.
Au contraire, I am not. Not at all. I am saying they all have blood on
their hands.
> > One would have thought that after the excesses of WWII, everybody would
> > have learned a lesson. Not so. England and France just continued in
> > their colonialist fashion, not for very long though, luckily.
>
> The excesses came from the extermination of 6 million jews, and 5 million
> others. Britain and France had and has no need to learn anything from you,
> or Germany.
Funny, why do the Brits play our music all the time then? Is that
because of that conspiracy? Are they not strong enough to shrug that
off and finlly let their own, unjustly neglected music take over the
concert podiums of the world (or at least of Britain, for a start)?
But you may be right. Apart from music, Britain didn't have much to
learn from Germany. It was more the other way around. Concepts such as
anti-ethnic warfare, broad persecution of civilian population,
concentration camps, and similar "measures" were already practiced
rather fervently by British troops when Hitler was still drawing
postcards in Vienna. And even before that, they already had a long and
successful history of ethnic cleansing and alignment. Just ask the
Welsh, Scots, or Irish, or any of the many subjugated people.
> Best you go back to the tribe you originated from, and started worshipping
> trees again, because even then, you possessed some remnants of a
> civilisation. You are not a typical post-war German, and I have met many and
> have many friends (including a few I have no need of). They were the type of
> ones who were only to glad to do their onerous duty for the Fatherland. As
> has been said before here, many many times, you think, write, and act as a
> Nazi. Maybe it isn't your fault, but you do very little to disguise the
> fact.
There really is a lot of stored hatred for Germans here. Interesting. I
could understand that from the point of view of people several
generations ago because it is largely Germany's fault that the British
Empire almost ceased to exist. Even though that didn't happen, the
exertion of the war was such that they had to let many of the most
valuable colonies go. That must really hurt, from a nationalist point
of view.
BTW, and this will come as a shock to you, German and English people
come from the same set of "treeworshipping tribes".
> PS: All anti-British and anti-French sympathies are considered a compliment
> to most of us, and also in the colonies. It is bred from the envy and hate
> you will always harbour to those who have always clearly proved your
> betters.
I never saw it like that. But clearly you do. I am a big fan or French
musical culture. I am not really of British, because there is so little
to admire. But hey, everybody loves "The Planets", that should be some
consolation to you.
But England as such is cool, too. I like it. It's a fun place in its
way and has many other interesting sides, maybe not "classical music"
so much, but they are also very good at playing the music of all the
other places. I don't have any "anti-British sympathies" (and that's a
pretty strange wording anyway), but I can see the good and the bad
sides of their history clearly, just as I can see the good and bad
sides of German history clearly.
I don't really care who had "more" or "better" music, but that question
seems to really eat at you.
Witzig.
> Ray H
> Taree, NSW
Peter T. Daniels
> You shouldn't just rashly assume that England only produced Elgar. For your
> information, he is an acquired taste, even in England. Get your facts right.
> And Bax, Tippett, Britten, Holst, RVW (to name even a very few) were around
> a fair while before the Beatles. Which isn't knocking the Beatles, because
> in Germany, after the war, you were too busy getting the Turks and Italians
> to do the dirty work, you yourself wouldn't do. Talk about exploitation from
> the dead and buried. And you wouldn't have had the innovation to produce the
> Beatles either.
Didn't the Beatles (like so many other English musicians) have to go to
Germany for their initial success?
And Britten to America? (The US, in fact -- his brief stay in Canada
didn't produce anything terribly memorable.)
Michael Haslam
Your examples might merely show that some creative artists benefit from
travel and exposure to different cultures. The Beatles going to Hamburg
is comparable to some band from Detroit going to NYC or LA or Nashville,
n'est-ce-pas? The artistic exile is well-known in many branches of the
arts. Would all those violin virtuosos have made careers if they'd
stayed in Odessa?
--
MJHaslam
Remove accidentals to obtain correct e-address
Peter T. Daniels
On Jan 24, 7:49 pm, innatesh...@macflat.com (Michael Haslam) wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > Didn't the Beatles (like so many other English musicians) have to go to
> > Germany for their initial success?
>
> > And Britten to America? (The US, in fact -- his brief stay in Canada
> > didn't produce anything terribly memorable.)
Your examples might merely show that some creative artists benefit from
> travel and exposure to different cultures. The Beatles going to Hamburg
> is comparable to some band from Detroit going to NYC or LA or Nashville,
> n'est-ce-pas?
Not really -- believe it or not, Detroit, NYC, LA, and Nashville are
all in the same country and speak pretty much the same language.
> The artistic exile is well-known in many branches of the
> arts. Would all those violin virtuosos have made careers if they'd
> stayed in Odessa?
Which ones are those?
Michael Haslam
> On Jan 24, 7:49 pm, innatesh...@macflat.com (Michael Haslam) wrote:
> > Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > Didn't the Beatles (like so many other English musicians) have to go to
> > > Germany for their initial success?
> >
> > > And Britten to America? (The US, in fact -- his brief stay in Canada
> > > didn't produce anything terribly memorable.)
>
> Your examples might merely show that some creative artists benefit from
> > travel and exposure to different cultures. The Beatles going to Hamburg
> > is comparable to some band from Detroit going to NYC or LA or Nashville,
> > n'est-ce-pas?
>
> Not really -- believe it or not, Detroit, NYC, LA, and Nashville are
> all in the same country and speak pretty much the same language.
Are you saying those cities are culturally homogenous? I admit the
language factor but I don't know whether the Beatles sang in German when
they were in Hamburg. Certainly there wasn't much of a language gap for
Britten in America.
>
> > The artistic exile is well-known in many branches of the
> > arts. Would all those violin virtuosos have made careers if they'd
> > stayed in Odessa?
>
> Which ones are those?
Milstein and Oistrakh, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.
Pianists, too.
Peter T. Daniels
> fPeter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > On Jan 24, 7:49 pm, innatesh...@macflat.com (Michael Haslam) wrote:
> > > Peter T. Daniels <gramma...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > Didn't the Beatles (like so many other English musicians) have to go to
> > > > Germany for their initial success?
>
> > > > And Britten to America? (The US, in fact -- his brief stay in Canada
> > > > didn't produce anything terribly memorable.)
>
> > Your examples might merely show that some creative artists benefit from
> > > travel and exposure to different cultures. The Beatles going to Hamburg
> > > is comparable to some band from Detroit going to NYC or LA or Nashville,
> > > n'est-ce-pas?
>
> > Not really -- believe it or not, Detroit, NYC, LA, and Nashville are
> > all in the same country and speak pretty much the same language.Are you saying those cities are culturally homogenous? I admit the
> language factor but I don't know whether the Beatles sang in German when
> they were in Hamburg. Certainly there wasn't much of a language gap for
> Britten in America.
The point was not "homogeneous culture," it was leaving the nation of
Britain (the United Kingdom and the British Empire respectively, IIRC)
to find success.
> > > The artistic exile is well-known in many branches of the
> > > arts. Would all those violin virtuosos have made careers if they'd
> > > stayed in Odessa?
>
> > Which ones are those?Milstein and Oistrakh, off the top of my head. I'm sure there are more.
> Pianists, too.
They might well have had careers. Did you mean, would they have had
international recording contracts if they had remained in the Soviet
Union? Perhaps not. Relevance?
Michael Haslam
"Leaving the nation of xxx in order to find success"
"A prophet without honour in his own country"
[What's happened to your quoting? - I fixed it.]
Peter T. Daniels
Odessa is/was in the nation of Ukraine (even when in the Soviet Union).
The four American cities are all in the same nation.
> "A prophet without honour in his own country"
>
> [What's happened to your quoting? - I fixed it.]
There's an exciting new google groups interface, which features inter
alia a fixed-width window (so you have to scroll back and forth to see
all of a line) and major screwing up of sequences of quotation. Plus,
it does no automatic crossposting at all -- if this thread was shared
with rmcr, I would have had to spell out rmcr for each posting.
I was going to note "A prophet is not without honor save in his own
country" (which is how it actually goes), but it seemed too obvious.
Michael Haslam
"A nation is the same people living in the same place."
"Well in that case, I'm a nation..."
- Ulysses, James Joyce
>
> > "A prophet without honour in his own country"
> >
> > [What's happened to your quoting? - I fixed it.]
>
> There's an exciting new google groups interface, which features inter
> alia a fixed-width window (so you have to scroll back and forth to see
> all of a line) and major screwing up of sequences of quotation. Plus,
> it does no automatic crossposting at all -- if this thread was shared
> with rmcr, I would have had to spell out rmcr for each posting.
And this from the man that doesn't click links! Get a proper newsreader.
>
> I was going to note "A prophet is not without honor save in his own
> country" (which is how it actually goes), but it seemed too obvious.
Too obvious for you to note it? Er.. right.
Ian Pace
>
> TareeDawg wrote:
>
>> Which isn't knocking the Beatles, because
>> in Germany, after the war, you were too busy getting the Turks and
>> Italians
>> to do the dirty work, you yourself wouldn't do.
>
> I wasn't yet around then, but the reason so many Turks came into
> Germany wasn't because "I" or "we" didn't want to work - there was
> simply so much work because German economy boomed - once again.
> But what does that have to do with knocking or not knocking the
> Beatles? You do know where the Beatles had their first big sucesses,
> right?
>
Italian and some Eastern European Gastarbeiter, Britain was inviting similar
workers from the Indian subcontinent, various African colonies and the
Caribbean, and France, Belgium and Holland were enacting similar processes
with peoples from their own dissipating empires. There's nothing
particularly unique about Germany in this respect.
Ian
Lora Crighton
I second that motion. Each version of googlegroups is worse than the last, and
the most recent one is almost unusable. The are some good newsreaders and
servers available for free.
--
Blessed Cecilia, appear in visions
To all musicians, appear and inspire:
Translated Daughter, come down and startle
Composing mortals with immortal fire.
Michael Haslam
I don't remember the UK having a special category for invited foreign or
Commonwealth workers whereby they were _constitutionally_ second-class
citizens without full nationality or a vote. That's not to deny the
racism West-Indian and subsequently other immigrants experienced.
Michael Schaffer
Dunno what the exact status is in the UK, but in Germany, foreign
residents have of course all the rights that German citizens have.
Except they don't get to vote. But I think that's pretty common in a
lot of countries. I am currently a guest worker in the USA, and I don't
get to vote either.
Funny thing is I get invitations for jury duty regularly, but since I
am not an US citizen, I don't qualify for that. I know the way this is
handled is that they go by the drivers licenses, but they should still
know I am a foreigner and not send me those invitations.
There was some discussion in Germany about giving foreign residents the
right to vote under certain circumstances, but I don't think that went
through. I think it's actually a good idea - under certain
circumstances. After all, you also pay taxes and all that in your guest
country.
Peter T. Daniels
On Jan 27, 4:30 am, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Michael Haslam wrote:
> > I don't remember the UK having a special category for invited foreign or
> > Commonwealth workers whereby they were _constitutionally_ second-class
> > citizens without full nationality or a vote. That's not to deny the
> > racism West-Indian and subsequently other immigrants experienced.
> Dunno what the exact status is in the UK, but in Germany, foreign
> residents have of course all the rights that German citizens have.
> Except they don't get to vote. But I think that's pretty common in a
> lot of countries. I am currently a guest worker in the USA, and I don't
> get to vote either.
No, you aren't; the US doesn't have such a category. In maybe the only
decent thing Bush has done in six years, he's trying to establish it,
as a "solution" to the "immigration problem."
You can, even as an immigrant born elsewhere, become a citizen of the
United States of America after (a great deal of) due process, and the
only privilege denied to you is the presidency or vice-presidency of
the country.
Moreover, anyone _born_ in the United States, even to the most illegal
of immigrants, is automatically a citizen of the United States (and
eligible for the presidency).
Those are not options for immigrants to Germany, or apparently even
for descendants of immigrants to Germany, whether legal or illegal.
> Funny thing is I get invitations for jury duty regularly, but since I
> am not an US citizen, I don't qualify for that. I know the way this is
> handled is that they go by the drivers licenses, but they should still
> know I am a foreigner and not send me those invitations.
Governments have very old computers. The people who programmed those
computers are no longer around. It's easier to send out invalid
invitations than to reinstall the county's entire computer system
(every few years, no less).
> There was some discussion in Germany about giving foreign residents the
> right to vote under certain circumstances, but I don't think that went
> through. I think it's actually a good idea - under certain
> circumstances. After all, you also pay taxes and all that in your guest
> country.
And you also vote in your country of origin, the country of which you
_are_ a citizen.
Michael Schaffer
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Jan 27, 4:30 am, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Michael Haslam wrote:
>
>
> > > I don't remember the UK having a special category for invited foreign or
> > > Commonwealth workers whereby they were _constitutionally_ second-class
> > > citizens without full nationality or a vote. That's not to deny the
> > > racism West-Indian and subsequently other immigrants experienced.
>
> > Dunno what the exact status is in the UK, but in Germany, foreign
> > residents have of course all the rights that German citizens have.
> > Except they don't get to vote. But I think that's pretty common in a
> > lot of countries. I am currently a guest worker in the USA, and I don't
> > get to vote either.
>
> No, you aren't; the US doesn't have such a category. In maybe the only
> decent thing Bush has done in six years, he's trying to establish it,
> as a "solution" to the "immigration problem."
>
> You can, even as an immigrant born elsewhere, become a citizen of the
> United States of America after (a great deal of) due process, and the
> only privilege denied to you is the presidency or vice-presidency of
> the country.
Whatever you may want to call me, guest worker or temporary foreign
non-immigrant worker (I forgot what the exact term is), it's basically
the same. A person from a foreign country allowed to work in the guest
country for a defined period of time, under certain circumstances. I
know that I can theoretically apply for permanent residency or
citizenship. But that applies to many other countries as well,
including Germany.
> Moreover, anyone _born_ in the United States, even to the most illegal
> of immigrants, is automatically a citizen of the United States (and
> eligible for the presidency).
>
> Those are not options for immigrants to Germany, or apparently even
> for descendants of immigrants to Germany, whether legal or illegal.
Where did you get that information? Of course you can become a German
citizen if you fulfill the requirements.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Deutsche_Staatsangehörigkeit#Einb.C3.BCrgerung_.28Naturalisation.
29_.E2.80.93_Erwerb_durch_Verwaltungsakt
I think you can also become "Bundespresident" or "Bundeskanzler" as an
immigrant.
> > Funny thing is I get invitations for jury duty regularly, but since I
> > am not an US citizen, I don't qualify for that. I know the way this is
> > handled is that they go by the drivers licenses, but they should still
> > know I am a foreigner and not send me those invitations.
>
> Governments have very old computers. The people who programmed those
> computers are no longer around. It's easier to send out invalid
> invitations than to reinstall the county's entire computer system
> (every few years, no less).
That actually makes sense. But didn't that situation already apply
when the old systems were originally installed?
Peter T. Daniels
On Jan 27, 4:22 pm, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Jan 27, 4:30 am, "Michael Schaffer" <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Michael Haslam wrote:
>
> > > > I don't remember the UK having a special category for invited foreign or
> > > > Commonwealth workers whereby they were _constitutionally_ second-class
> > > > citizens without full nationality or a vote. That's not to deny the
> > > > racism West-Indian and subsequently other immigrants experienced.
>
> > > Dunno what the exact status is in the UK, but in Germany, foreign
> > > residents have of course all the rights that German citizens have.
> > > Except they don't get to vote. But I think that's pretty common in a
> > > lot of countries. I am currently a guest worker in the USA, and I don't
> > > get to vote either.
>
> > No, you aren't; the US doesn't have such a category. In maybe the only
> > decent thing Bush has done in six years, he's trying to establish it,
> > as a "solution" to the "immigration problem."
>
> > You can, even as an immigrant born elsewhere, become a citizen of the
> > United States of America after (a great deal of) due process, and the
> > only privilege denied to you is the presidency or vice-presidency of
> > the country.
> Whatever you may want to call me, guest worker or temporary foreign
> non-immigrant worker (I forgot what the exact term is), it's basically
> the same.
Clearly it isn't, or Bush wouldn't be bucking his conservative base in
trying to establish the category.
> A person from a foreign country allowed to work in the guest
> country for a defined period of time, under certain circumstances.
There are all sorts of different visas that allow you to enter the
country for specified lengths of time for specific purposes, such as
tourist, student, or work -- if the employer can show that no US
citizen exists who could do the job.
> I
> know that I can theoretically apply for permanent residency or
> citizenship. But that applies to many other countries as well,
> including Germany.
>
> > Moreover, anyone _born_ in the United States, even to the most illegal
> > of immigrants, is automatically a citizen of the United States (and
> > eligible for the presidency).
>
> > Those are not options for immigrants to Germany, or apparently even
> > for descendants of immigrants to Germany, whether legal or illegal.
> Where did you get that information? Of course you can become a German
> citizen if you fulfill the requirements.http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> Deutsche_Staatsangehörigkeit#Einb.C3.BCrgerung_.28Naturalisation.
> 29_.E2.80.93_Erwerb_durch_Verwaltungsakt
> I think you can also become "Bundespresident" or "Bundeskanzler" as an
> immigrant.
So all those disgruntled Turks who are always demonstrating for rights
are German citizens? And all those nth-generation Algerians who rioted
in Paris suburbs a few years ago are French citizens? And all those
Assyrians and Turoyoans in Sweden are Swedish citizens?
> > > Funny thing is I get invitations for jury duty regularly, but since I
> > > am not an US citizen, I don't qualify for that. I know the way this is
> > > handled is that they go by the drivers licenses, but they should still
> > > know I am a foreigner and not send me those invitations.
>
> > Governments have very old computers. The people who programmed those
> > computers are no longer around. It's easier to send out invalid
> > invitations than to reinstall the county's entire computer system
> > (every few years, no less).
> That actually makes sense. But didn't that situation already apply
> when the old systems were originally installed?
No idea; the closest I came to government computers in the 60s was
when I worked registration at City College and the City University
Graduate Center, when it was all punch-cards and if anyone needed any
special attention at all, no one but the Registrar himself could go
off to the punch-card room and come back a while later with new cards.
Michael Schaffer
Are you talking about those ideas to issue temporary visa to
unqualified workers in order to better control the flood of illegal
immigrants?
> > A person from a foreign country allowed to work in the guest
> > country for a defined period of time, under certain circumstances.
>
> There are all sorts of different visas that allow you to enter the
> country for specified lengths of time for specific purposes, such as
> tourist, student, or work -- if the employer can show that no US
> citizen exists who could do the job.
That's actually a common misperception. That only applies when you
apply for a green card. For a work visa, you don't have to prove that
you couldn't find any US citizens qualified for the job (I think it's
about not being able to *find* one, not if they exist or not). The
employer has to explain why a special qualification is needed for the
job, and the potential employee has to prove that he has that
qualification.
> > I
> > know that I can theoretically apply for permanent residency or
> > citizenship. But that applies to many other countries as well,
> > including Germany.
> >
> > > Moreover, anyone _born_ in the United States, even to the most illegal
> > > of immigrants, is automatically a citizen of the United States (and
> > > eligible for the presidency).
> >
> > > Those are not options for immigrants to Germany, or apparently even
> > > for descendants of immigrants to Germany, whether legal or illegal.
>
> > Where did you get that information? Of course you can become a German
> > citizen if you fulfill the requirements.http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> > Deutsche_Staatsangehörigkeit#Einb.C3.BCrgerung_.28Naturalisation.
> > 29_.E2.80.93_Erwerb_durch_Verwaltungsakt
> > I think you can also become "Bundespresident" or "Bundeskanzler" as an
> > immigrant.
>
> So all those disgruntled Turks who are always demonstrating for rights
> are German citizens? And all those nth-generation Algerians who rioted
> in Paris suburbs a few years ago are French citizens? And all those
> Assyrians and Turoyoans in Sweden are Swedish citizens?
Dunno about the situation in France and Sweden, and dunno about the
"always demonstrating" Turks in Germany either. I can't actually
remember any major demonstrations by Turks from my time in Berlin
(which doesn't mean that there weren't any, they don't tell me about
everything that's going on, and I have only lived there for 34 years).
Some of the long-time residents are German citizens, some aren't. I
vaguely remember talking to this about a Turkish trainee I once had,
but I can't remember right now what he told me about that. He was a
German citizen, and another one I had wasn't, but he was still a
permanent resident. Confusing.
In any case, the Turks have all rights German citizens have. In larger
cities which have very large Turkish immigrant communities (like
Berlin), all the paperwork and info material and all that in
government agency offices is available in German and Turkish, and
there are tons of bilingual social workers and all sorts of cultural
exchange projects going on.
In general, I would say the Turks are rather well "integrated", by
which I mean they basically have all the rights and opportunities
German citizens have, and they are very present in everyday life - if
they want to. At least the younger generations. The older ones
theoretically, too, but a lot of them still live mentally in the old
country, don't speak any German and mostly stay among themselves.
At least that all applies to men. When it comes to women, the
situation is drastically different. They have all the rights, too,
from the German side, but not from the Turkish side. It is actually
very difficult to even talk to Turkish girls, let alone become friends
or even date.
They are usually closely watched and stay together in groups, watching
each other, and you basically never see them out in clubs or discos.
I remember one time I played in a chamber orchestra, and we played
together with a Turkish folk music ensemble, basically string
orchestra and about 20 Turkish instrumentalists on all sortes of saz
(kind of lutes) and percussion instruments, about half of the players
were young ladies. During rehearsal, I talked a little to one which
sat right next to me, and in the intermission one of the teachers of
that ensemble came over and pointed out to me that I am not allowed to
talk to any of the girls without his permission, and only under
supervision.
No kidding.
That creates some problems because on the one hand people feel that
since they live in Germany and are protected by German laws, the way a
lot of women are still treated in these communities can not be
allowed. On the other hand, because of the NS past, people are almost
over-sensitive when it comes to "respecting other cultures". It is
hard to say where the border lines are. Fact is, however, that in all
major cities, there are several "honor killings" every year - that are
becoming public. There is probably a greater grey zone figure.
In general, there seem to be more problems with Muslim immigrant
communities because they tend to aggressively de-integrate and isolate
themselves to a certain degree. That has nothing to do with
"conserving their own cultural traditions". There are many other
immigrant communities who conserve their traditional ways but don't
aggressively distance themselves.
> > > > Funny thing is I get invitations for jury duty regularly, but since I
> > > > am not an US citizen, I don't qualify for that. I know the way this is
> > > > handled is that they go by the drivers licenses, but they should still
> > > > know I am a foreigner and not send me those invitations.
> >
> > > Governments have very old computers. The people who programmed those
> > > computers are no longer around. It's easier to send out invalid
> > > invitations than to reinstall the county's entire computer system
> > > (every few years, no less).
>
> > That actually makes sense. But didn't that situation already apply
> > when the old systems were originally installed?
>
> No idea; the closest I came to government computers in the 60s was
> when I worked registration at City College and the City University
> Graduate Center, when it was all punch-cards and if anyone needed any
> special attention at all, no one but the Registrar himself could go
> off to the punch-card room and come back a while later with new cards.
Maybe they still have those old punch cards and that's why I get
called for jury duty now and then.
Peter T. Daniels
I'm not aware that anything coherent enough to be called an "idea" has
yet been put forth.
> > > A person from a foreign country allowed to work in the guest
> > > country for a defined period of time, under certain circumstances.
>
> > There are all sorts of different visas that allow you to enter the
> > country for specified lengths of time for specific purposes, such as
> > tourist, student, or work -- if the employer can show that no US
> > citizen exists who could do the job.
> That's actually a common misperception. That only applies when you
> apply for a green card. For a work visa, you don't have to prove that
> you couldn't find any US citizens qualified for the job (I think it's
> about not being able to *find* one, not if they exist or not). The
> employer has to explain why a special qualification is needed for the
> job, and the potential employee has to prove that he has that
> qualification.
The question frequently comes up with reference to British actors
appearing on Broadway, and they most certainly are not applying for
Green Cards. Mr. Haslam has considerable experience in this area and
perhaps can clarify.
You reveal so much more than you realize ...
> > > > > Funny thing is I get invitations for jury duty regularly, but since I
> > > > > am not an US citizen, I don't qualify for that. I know the way this is
> > > > > handled is that they go by the drivers licenses, but they should still
> > > > > know I am a foreigner and not send me those invitations.
>
> > > > Governments have very old computers. The people who programmed those
> > > > computers are no longer around. It's easier to send out invalid
> > > > invitations than to reinstall the county's entire computer system
> > > > (every few years, no less).
>
> > > That actually makes sense. But didn't that situation already apply
> > > when the old systems were originally installed?
>
> > No idea; the closest I came to government computers in the 60s was
> > when I worked registration at City College and the City University
> > Graduate Center, when it was all punch-cards and if anyone needed any
> > special attention at all, no one but the Registrar himself could go
> > off to the punch-card room and come back a while later with new cards.
> Maybe they still have those old punch cards and that's why I get
> called for jury duty now and then.
>
>
>
> > > > > There was some discussion in Germany about giving foreign residents the
> > > > > right to vote under certain circumstances, but I don't think that went
> > > > > through. I think it's actually a good idea - under certain
> > > > > circumstances. After all, you also pay taxes and all that in your guest
> > > > > country.
>
> > > > And you also vote in your country of origin, the country of which you
> > > > _are_ a citizen.- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Michael Schaffer
I am not an expert either - I can tell you a lot about the visa class
that I currently have and the application process, but it's probably
not that interesting in general -, but I can tell you there are
special visa categories for sports and showbiz personalities.
Like what?
singer
> Supplies are limited. But the pain that accompanies them may not be.
> http://despair.com/bittersweets.html
>
>
>