A night at the opera....mannequins, Versace shoes...instruments ruined
Alan Watkins
The Scottish Opera chorus, who face redundancy as part of an agreed £7
million rescue package, have bitterly attacked their music director
Sir Richard Armstrong claiming his extravagance has cost them their
jobs.
Ever since the curtain fell on the announcement of Scottish Opera's
radical restructuring, missiles have been aimed at a number of heads.
Chris Barron, head of the opera, Duncan McGhie, head of the board,
James Boyle, ex-head of the Scottish Arts Council, Frank McAveety,
head of culture, and the biggest of them all, Jack McConnell, are all
targeted with charges of cultural "vandalism" for the roles they
played.
But the 34 members of the opera chorus — all of whom are expected to
lose their jobs — believe that their celebrated music director, Sir
Richard Armstrong, should shoulder much of the blame.
Armstrong was knighted in the New Year honours, picked up the Royal
Philharmonic Society opera award last month for staging Wagner's Ring
cycle, and collected a South Bank Show opera award for the company in
January.
But many in the chorus believe his apparent unwillingness to sacrifice
artistic standards to meet a budget, "inappropriate and elitist"
programming, and only partial use of the chorus led to last Monday's
denouement: bankruptcy avoided with a £7 million Executive rescue
package to make 88 job losses, a dark period of nine months next year,
and negotiations to give the running of the Theatre Royal to another
firm.
At performances of La Bohème, chorus members have petitioned for
signatures to save their jobs and will present more than 6000 names to
the Scottish Executive tomorrow, including Barron, planning director
Jenny Slack and Catherine Lockerbie, director of the Edinburgh
International Book Festival. Conductor Richard Farnes took his bow
wearing their campaign T-shirt in Glasgow on Friday, at what could be
the chorus's last performance at their Theatre Royal home.
Barron refused them permission to sing an encore of "Auld Lang Syne"
to the audience but the crowd spontaneously began to sing the anthem
after the curtain fell.
Members of the chorus, restricted by contractual gagging orders, have
made their case against Armstrong to their MSPs and their union,
Equity.
They accuse him of 11 years of "extravagance" and "prima donna
tantrums", sidelining the professional chorus in favour of hired
singers, and "systematically excluding" them from programmes.
"He is unwilling to sacrifice his artistic standards," said one member
of the chorus. "We are desperate to work but have been vastly
under-used to keep us out of the public eye. In the last 10 years our
essential role as soloists and understudies has declined and we
scarcely participated in the Ring cycle.
"We are pawns in their chess game, everyone bows to Armstrong and we
believe he should take the blame."
Chorus members describe a catalogue of "unnecessary" spending over the
years. La Bohème costs around £20,000 a night to perform and although
wardrobe figures are not available, staff claim players were given
£270 Versace shoes to wear — scarcely visible beyond the third row.
For performances of the Ring cycle, one chorus member wore a £50
Jenners belt that was "invisible to the audience".
Staff talk of Armstrong insisting on a £10,000 raised stage for La
Bohème. They claim two eight-foot mannequins for the performance cost
£10,000, and a dozen mannequins to bolster the ranks of the band at
the end of Act II are said to have cost £700 each, with real musical
instruments ruined by being glued to their hands.
Plasma screens, computers and projectors used are said to have been
top-of-the-range, while two plasma screens for the children's opera
The Minotaur are thought to have cost £10,000.
Although Armstrong said he deplored the loss of the chorus earlier
this week, staff resent his lack of support and the fact that he has
refused to meet them face to face.
Armstrong was not available for comment, but a spokeswoman for
Scottish Opera said that he works within budgets allocated by opera
management. "The company strongly refutes allegations of overspending
its budgets," she said. "Scottish Opera's financial problems have
revolved around extraordinary one-off costs, like health and safety
issues at the Theatre Royal, and unstable public funding.
"Sir Richard is not a budget holder, but is allocated a budget for
each production — and La Bohème has not exceeded its budget. His
talents have been recognised both in the UK and internationally, and
he is considered to be the best Wagnerian of his generation."
Other experts say the financial problems of the opera go back to its
very beginnings. A former senior figure in Scottish Opera said: "On 16
occasions, the annual accounts of Scottish Opera have required special
action to keep it going. But nobody [in the executive or Scottish Arts
Council] has been clear that we cannot afford the company.
"There is a more logical way to make cuts. The country doesn't need a
fourth symphony orchestra and a smaller company doesn't mean cutting
out a piece, but looking at the structure. You cannot run an opera
without a chorus because chorus availability is always the limiting
factor."
The Executive is nonetheless adamant that it supports a national
company. At the arts and business annual awards last week, McAveety
insisted that "we want an opera company to serve and to build
audiences", but others say even if the opera survives, the whole
controversy has put off audiences forever.
John Stalker, general manager of the Festival Theatre, created
especially to house 12 weeks of Scottish Opera and 12 of Scottish
Ballet performances each year, said: "No performances for nine months
will cost me £120,000, and although there is provision in the Scottish
Executive's business plan to compensate this loss, I am actively
courting companies such as Welsh National Opera and Opera North.
"There is an enormous thirst for mainscale opera in Edinburgh, but
Scottish Opera has not been providing an adequate level and the
current domestic accountancy has put audiences off Scottish Opera,
maybe for good."
Kind regards,
Alan M.Watkins
La Donna Mobile
from a political point of view it makes the devolved Executive look like
like a bunch of cretinous part-timers. But if those stories of Versace shoes
etc are true, I am appalled. It doesn't take any great knowledge of opera to
scrutinise a budget and, to use a technical term, cut the crap - plenty of
school governors have been doing it for years.
And I would find it ironic - but a betrayal of a dream - if one of the
significant results of Devolution is having Welsh National Opera and Opera
North (of England) being Edinburgh's resident Opera Companies.
To those who haven't been following the saga, which is complicated, there
are issues about priorities for funding. Some of the priorities are noble -
supporting traditional Scots music, and trying to ensure that every child
has the opportunity of an instrument lesson - but IMO (and that of more
knowledgable commentators) there is a streak of ignorant anti-elitism
running through elements of the Scots political class.
As a Socialist, I find it deeply frustrating, because my socialist vision
encompasses Excellence for All, which is why I so passionately support
public subsidy of the Arts. I just don't think that instrument lessons for
all children is an "Arts" issue, but one of basic education, as much as
computers for schools, or field trips to the countryside, or whatever.
"Alan Watkins" <alanwa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com...
> The Herald [Glasgow] - 15 June 2004
>
>
> The Scottish Opera chorus, who face redundancy as part of an agreed £7
> million rescue package, have bitterly attacked their music director
> Sir Richard Armstrong claiming his extravagance has cost them their
> jobs.
>
> Ever since the curtain fell on the announcement of Scottish Opera's
> radical restructuring, missiles have been aimed at a number of heads.
>
> Chris Barron, head of the opera, Duncan McGhie, head of the board,
> James Boyle, ex-head of the Scottish Arts Council, Frank McAveety,
> head of culture, and the biggest of them all, Jack McConnell, are all
> targeted with charges of cultural "vandalism" for the roles they
> played.
>
> But the 34 members of the opera chorus - all of whom are expected to
> lose their jobs - believe that their celebrated music director, Sir
> £270 Versace shoes to wear - scarcely visible beyond the third row.
> For performances of the Ring cycle, one chorus member wore a £50
> Jenners belt that was "invisible to the audience".
>
> Staff talk of Armstrong insisting on a £10,000 raised stage for La
> Bohème. They claim two eight-foot mannequins for the performance cost
> £10,000, and a dozen mannequins to bolster the ranks of the band at
> the end of Act II are said to have cost £700 each, with real musical
> instruments ruined by being glued to their hands.
>
> Plasma screens, computers and projectors used are said to have been
> top-of-the-range, while two plasma screens for the children's opera
> The Minotaur are thought to have cost £10,000.
>
> Although Armstrong said he deplored the loss of the chorus earlier
> this week, staff resent his lack of support and the fact that he has
> refused to meet them face to face.
>
> Armstrong was not available for comment, but a spokeswoman for
> Scottish Opera said that he works within budgets allocated by opera
> management. "The company strongly refutes allegations of overspending
> its budgets," she said. "Scottish Opera's financial problems have
> revolved around extraordinary one-off costs, like health and safety
> issues at the Theatre Royal, and unstable public funding.
>
> "Sir Richard is not a budget holder, but is allocated a budget for
> each production - and La Bohème has not exceeded its budget. His
Alan Watkins
> This is a very sorry saga that has been rumbling for too long. I'm afraid
> from a political point of view it makes the devolved Executive look like
> like a bunch of cretinous part-timers. But if those stories of Versace shoes
> etc are true, I am appalled. It doesn't take any great knowledge of opera to
> scrutinise a budget and, to use a technical term, cut the crap - plenty of
> school governors have been doing it for years.
>
> And I would find it ironic - but a betrayal of a dream - if one of the
> significant results of Devolution is having Welsh National Opera and Opera
> North (of England) being Edinburgh's resident Opera Companies.
>
> To those who haven't been following the saga, which is complicated, there
> are issues about priorities for funding. Some of the priorities are noble -
> supporting traditional Scots music, and trying to ensure that every child
> has the opportunity of an instrument lesson - but IMO (and that of more
> knowledgable commentators) there is a streak of ignorant anti-elitism
> running through elements of the Scots political class.
>
> As a Socialist, I find it deeply frustrating, because my socialist vision
> encompasses Excellence for All, which is why I so passionately support
> public subsidy of the Arts. I just don't think that instrument lessons for
> all children is an "Arts" issue, but one of basic education, as much as
> computers for schools, or field trips to the countryside, or whatever.
Whatever the cause it is a truly sad situation. I just do not
understand how you would run an opera house without a chorus! Of
course I have played for (heavily) subsidised houses all my life and
know no other way (and always with a good strong chorus as well). One
of the Prague chorus groups is doing Spectre's Bride at the English
Proms this year and I am sure they will show the quality of their
singing. That quality comes heavily subsidised but what an
advertisment for their country! I am sure they will help the
Promenaders fall in love with this wonderful work.
I have to say I would have thought Scotland to be a bit more
"nationalistic" than it is and I am surprised that they would not
think a fine opera house a national treasure. It has worked for
Wales.
I have a friend in the Opera North orchestra and (as posted in another
thread) they certainly have been approached and are actively
considering the approach and possibly also a "tour" of Scotland.
I agree with every word of your comments about children. It is the
RIGHT of every child to learn of the arts and it is not an add on and
I have to say that I am proud of the Czech Republic in that regard and
in their continued financial support of the arts.
It does not have the economic wealth of a country such as the United
Kingdom so I suspect that the Proms choir will not be wearing Versace
shoes:):) but all will have been trained at a heavily subsidised music
school and all would have had music on their curriculum from their
very first day at school.
I am rather surprised about Scotland because, being Irish, I would
have expected the Gaelic love of music to shine through all genre or
at least not to be so mean minded.
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
Nightingale
> I agree with every word of your comments about children. It is the
> RIGHT of every child to learn of the arts and it is not an add on and
> I have to say that I am proud of the Czech Republic in that regard and
> in their continued financial support of the arts.
>
It is too bad that more people do not share your opinion. Here, there
is never much effort or funding given to arts, especially music, and
it's usually the first thing that is cut if there is concern about
budgets. Some elementary schools have their own music teachers, but
others either share one or leave what little music instruction is done
to the regular classroom teacher. That's how my elementary school was -
in grade 4, our teacher was trying to teach us songs & reading music
even though he was completely tone death. In grade 5, I transferred
schools - still not a great music program, but the teacher knew
something about it at least, and could play piano & hear properly.
--
The better the voyce is, the meeter it is to honour and
serve God there-with: and the voyce of man is chiefely
to be imployed to that ende.
Omnis spiritus laudet Dominum.
-William Byrd
Alan Watkins
> Alan Watkins wrote:
>
> > I agree with every word of your comments about children. It is the
> > RIGHT of every child to learn of the arts and it is not an add on and
> > I have to say that I am proud of the Czech Republic in that regard and
> > in their continued financial support of the arts.
> >
>
>
> It is too bad that more people do not share your opinion. Here, there
> is never much effort or funding given to arts, especially music, and
> it's usually the first thing that is cut if there is concern about
> budgets. Some elementary schools have their own music teachers, but
> others either share one or leave what little music instruction is done
> to the regular classroom teacher. That's how my elementary school was -
> in grade 4, our teacher was trying to teach us songs & reading music
> even though he was completely tone death. In grade 5, I transferred
> schools - still not a great music program, but the teacher knew
> something about it at least, and could play piano & hear properly.
It is just as bad in England, if not worse. I have a friend who is a
gifted music teacher at a school for ages 11-16 and he has had to buy
some instruments for the school orchestra out of his own pocket
because no funding was available. The visiting instrumental teachers
have been axed because of funding cuts so you have children who
started learning instruments such as the oboe and the horn and now
have no one to teach them unless their parents can afford to send them
for private lessons.
It is a quite shameful situation. What concerns me, above all, is
that there are quite possibly gifted children being denied their gift
simply because there is no one to bring it out, or exploit it, or the
parents are not in a position to pay for private lessons which, in
many cases, may also involve considerable travelling not to mention
the purchase of a decent instrument.
At the first school I attended I was not "allowed" to play percussion
as it was thought "unsuitable" by the then music teacher who was only
interested in either the piano, violin or recorder.
But these children are the musicians and music lovers of the future,
the singers of the future, whatever genre we are talking about. If
you take music into schools as I have done for many years you find
they are fascinated by it but you have to take it to them in the first
place.
We did a percussion weekend about five years ago...come along, no
qualifications necessary...we'll get you playing by the end of the day
(and we did with a gigantic Samba snake) To our astonishment we
discovered a little boy aged SIX who was already accomplished on kit
drums, self taught, and who was immediately taken under the wing of
one of the jazz percussionists who took part. The child was doing
breaks and fills and offbeats on the hi-hat as if he was born to it
(which he obviously was). We all stood there astonished!
On my last trip to Ireland I saw a Ceili band in Ballina who had a
little girl aged about 12 on the drums and she was brilliant. When I
told her how good she was she told me she was being taught by someone
in the RTE Concert Orchestra who had come to her school.
You have to REACH out!!!! It is no good waiting for them to come to
you.
Sailbad Sinner
>
> encompasses Excellence for All, which is why I so passionately support
> public subsidy of the Arts. I just don't think that instrument lessons for
> all children is an "Arts" issue, but one of basic education, as much as
> computers for schools, or field trips to the countryside, or whatever.
>
public funding (taxpayers' money). But my support of public funding or
opera does not make me a socialist, which I am not. The idea is not to
"socialize" art forms that are self-supporting. Rather it makes sense
for a small country like mine (Finland) to invest in entertainment
that is supposed to enhance the country's image, attract tourists and
high-tech workforce and so on.
An event comparable to what Alan described happened at the Finnish NO.
They hired Götz Friedrich to direct the Ring a few years ago. When
Friedrich arrived, he was not satisfied with the sets and props that
were made to his specifications (which apparently were misunderstood
in some way). Friedrich, who had total artistic control, had the
entire set dumped and new ones made with terrible overtime costs. But
apparently no one lost their jobs over the affair.
Pat Finley
> It is a quite shameful situation. What concerns me, above all, is
> that there are quite possibly gifted children being denied their gift
> simply because there is no one to bring it out, or exploit it, or the
> parents are not in a position to pay for private lessons which, in
> many cases, may also involve considerable travelling not to mention
> the purchase of a decent instrument.
>
=======================
I wonder if someone (perhaps Mr Ellsworth?) could speak for the
conservative viewpoint on this issue.
Is the abandonment for support of the arts in schools embraced
because
a) the arts are not important, or not sufficiently important?
b) the arts must earn their own way and pay for themselves?
c) if the arts are important enough, surely private sources will come
forward to fund them?
d) it's not the state's business to inculcate an appreciation of the
arts in those who do not have the means to support such an interest
(by paying for instruments, private lessons, etc.
This issue, IMO, provides an excellent illustration of why many people
find 'private enterprise' as a be-all and end-all, sadly deficient.
Everyone (or nearly everyone) agrees that music/art instruction is a
good thing (as is providing decent housing to the indigent). But the
profit motive gets in the way of it happening, because there is no
visible short-term gain associated with it.
Very sad.
Pat
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
news:62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com:
> It is a quite shameful situation. What concerns me, above all, is that
> there are quite possibly gifted children being denied their gift simply
> because there is no one to bring it out, or exploit it, or the parents are
> not in a position to pay for private lessons which, in many cases, may also
> involve considerable travelling not to mention the purchase of a decent
> instrument.
I often wonder how many potential Richters, Leontyne Prices, Heifetzes, or
Louis Armstrongs we are losing because the education system has abandoned art
music and the megacorps are pushing synthesized rock/pop/rap instead?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Peter T. Daniels
>
> alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins) wrote in message news:<62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com>...
>
> > It is a quite shameful situation. What concerns me, above all, is
> > that there are quite possibly gifted children being denied their gift
> > simply because there is no one to bring it out, or exploit it, or the
> > parents are not in a position to pay for private lessons which, in
> > many cases, may also involve considerable travelling not to mention
> > the purchase of a decent instrument.
> >
> =======================
>
> I wonder if someone (perhaps Mr Ellsworth?) could speak for the
> conservative viewpoint on this issue.
>
> Is the abandonment for support of the arts in schools embraced
> because
>
> a) the arts are not important, or not sufficiently important?
> b) the arts must earn their own way and pay for themselves?
> c) if the arts are important enough, surely private sources will come
> forward to fund them?
> d) it's not the state's business to inculcate an appreciation of the
> arts in those who do not have the means to support such an interest
> (by paying for instruments, private lessons, etc.
I think those are pretty much the reasons they give.
> This issue, IMO, provides an excellent illustration of why many people
> find 'private enterprise' as a be-all and end-all, sadly deficient.
>
> Everyone (or nearly everyone) agrees that music/art instruction is a
> good thing (as is providing decent housing to the indigent). But the
> profit motive gets in the way of it happening, because there is no
> visible short-term gain associated with it.
>
> Very sad.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Alan Watkins
Everyone knows what the benefit of subsidised art has been to the
Czech Republic! It is one of the things that helps attract tourists
and, sometimes, makes them return and I would say it has certainly
enhanced the image of "my" country and is an important part of the
economy.
The Czech Philharmonic is seen as the travelling ambassador for the
country and the opera houses seen as both architectural and musical
treasures, far too precious to lose or undermine. During the summer
season I would think that up to 60 per cent of the audience are
visitors so it is very important that they get the very best
impression we can give and you cannot give such an impression by
cutting funding.
Scotland is a wonderful country for tourists (like Finland and the
Czech Republic) and all three are comparitively "small" countries.
All have their own strong, distinctive musical traditions. I think
the view of the Scottish administrators is fundamentally flawed and
they need only look at the two countries which we have mentioned.
Brendan R. Wehrung
Much cheaper to walk a bagpiper along the battlements of the Castle at
dusk and call that "culture."
Brendan
--
James Kahn
>alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins) wrote in message news:<62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com>...
>> It is a quite shameful situation. What concerns me, above all, is
>> that there are quite possibly gifted children being denied their gift
>> simply because there is no one to bring it out, or exploit it, or the
>> parents are not in a position to pay for private lessons which, in
>> many cases, may also involve considerable travelling not to mention
>> the purchase of a decent instrument.
>
> I wonder if someone (perhaps Mr Ellsworth?) could speak for the
>conservative viewpoint on this issue.
[straw man arguments deleted]
Perhaps you could speak for the liberal viewpoint, since liberals
are the big defenders of the public school bureaucracy.
Conservatives believe that the schools have failed, both in the area
of arts education as well as more broadly. Would you describe
the late Allan Bloom (_The Closing of the American Mind_) as a
liberal?
I find it amusing that people set up and knock down these straw
men "conservative" views without bothering to find out what the
actual views are. I don't know any conservative who thinks that
education should be left to the free market. I do know plenty
who think that government-run schools are a colossal failure. Those
views aren't contradictory.
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In <ce68920e.0406...@posting.google.com> capa0...@aol.com (Pat Finley) writes:
>
> >alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins) wrote in message news:<62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com>...
>
> >> It is a quite shameful situation. What concerns me, above all, is
> >> that there are quite possibly gifted children being denied their gift
> >> simply because there is no one to bring it out, or exploit it, or the
> >> parents are not in a position to pay for private lessons which, in
> >> many cases, may also involve considerable travelling not to mention
> >> the purchase of a decent instrument.
> >
> > I wonder if someone (perhaps Mr Ellsworth?) could speak for the
> >conservative viewpoint on this issue.
>
> [straw man arguments deleted]
>
> Perhaps you could speak for the liberal viewpoint, since liberals
> are the big defenders of the public school bureaucracy.
> Conservatives believe that the schools have failed, both in the area
> of arts education as well as more broadly. Would you describe
> the late Allan Bloom (_The Closing of the American Mind_) as a
> liberal?
No, just a liar and a hypocrite.
La Donna Mobile
I find it so frustrating that the Arts are neglected, for their own sake,
and for wider reasons. I don't believe that arts should be used as a tool of
social engineering per se. OTOH, when I made an audit visit to a primary
school (4-11) in one of the most deprived areas of Britain - high proportion
of free school meals, a high proportion having English as a second language
(North Peckham Estate), I was puzzled to see many photos of Simon Rattle on
the walls. I suspected a weird and unlikely cult, until I was told that the
great Sir Simon had conducted the school brass band. The lists of prizes
they had won (and the rehearsal I heard) suggested a very high standard. The
fact that this great music and active involvement in a hobby probably had a
great socialising effect on ferile kids is a wonderful added bonus.
James Kahn
Great contribution to the discussion. I'm sure everyone learned
a lot.
Dr.Matt
James Kahn <ka...@nospam.panix.com> wrote:
>In <ce68920e.0406...@posting.google.com> capa0...@aol.com
>(Pat Finley) writes:
>
>>alanwa...@aol.com (Alan Watkins) wrote in message
>news:<62c8649c.04061...@posting.google.com>...
>
>>> It is a quite shameful situation. What concerns me, above all, is
>>> that there are quite possibly gifted children being denied their gift
>>> simply because there is no one to bring it out, or exploit it, or the
>>> parents are not in a position to pay for private lessons which, in
>>> many cases, may also involve considerable travelling not to mention
>>> the purchase of a decent instrument.
>>
>> I wonder if someone (perhaps Mr Ellsworth?) could speak for the
>>conservative viewpoint on this issue.
>
>[straw man arguments deleted]
>
>Perhaps you could speak for the liberal viewpoint, since liberals
>are the big defenders of the public school bureaucracy.
>Conservatives believe that the schools have failed, both in the area
>of arts education as well as more broadly. Would you describe
>the late Allan Bloom (_The Closing of the American Mind_) as a
>liberal?
My experience of Bloom is that he was a radical conservative.
>I find it amusing that people set up and knock down these straw
>men "conservative" views without bothering to find out what the
>actual views are. I don't know any conservative who thinks that
>education should be left to the free market. I do know plenty
>who think that government-run schools are a colossal failure. Those
>views aren't contradictory.
>--
>Jim
>New York, NY
>(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
>http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Funny, I know plenty of conservatives who think education should be
left to the free market. They tend to be pushing for vouchers--remember
vouchers?
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
"Hey, don't knock Placebo, its the only thing effective for my hypochondria."
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
James Kahn
>In article <cb317c$9do$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>James Kahn <ka...@nospam.panix.com> wrote:
>>I find it amusing that people set up and knock down these straw
>>men "conservative" views without bothering to find out what the
>>actual views are. I don't know any conservative who thinks that
>>education should be left to the free market. I do know plenty
>>who think that government-run schools are a colossal failure. Those
>>views aren't contradictory.
>Funny, I know plenty of conservatives who think education should be
>left to the free market. They tend to be pushing for vouchers--remember
>vouchers?
Vouchers are no more an example of a free market than food stamps
or Medicaid. They are financed by tax dollars and distributed by
the government.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In <40D57E...@worldnet.att.net> "Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>
> >James Kahn wrote:
> >> In <ce68920e.0406...@posting.google.com> capa0...@aol.com (Pat Finley) writes:
> >> >
> >> > I wonder if someone (perhaps Mr Ellsworth?) could speak for the
> >> >conservative viewpoint on this issue.
> >>
> >> [straw man arguments deleted]
> >>
> >> Perhaps you could speak for the liberal viewpoint, since liberals
> >> are the big defenders of the public school bureaucracy.
> >> Conservatives believe that the schools have failed, both in the area
> >> of arts education as well as more broadly. Would you describe
> >> the late Allan Bloom (_The Closing of the American Mind_) as a
> >> liberal?
>
> >No, just a liar and a hypocrite.
>
> Great contribution to the discussion. I'm sure everyone learned
> a lot.
We did Allan Bloom here years ago. You could look it up.
EG
> because
>
> a) the arts are not important, or not sufficiently important?
important social function in 18th and 19th centuries in Europe. During
the course of the 20th century the place of classical music declined
gradually and today it is a marginal phenomenon. Clearly, the cinema
took the central stage as the art form of the 20th century. Just count
the number of people who go to movies. There will come the time when a
bunch of reactionaries (who for some strange reason call themselves
"leftist liberals") will demand that the society subsidize the film
industry because the general public is no longer
interested in cinema. Instead, the masses have turned to some
interactive, virtual
reality entertainment and cinema ceased to be profitable. The masses
of course are stupid, but these liberals, they know better what is
good for the masses.
> b) the arts must earn their own way and pay for themselves?
Yes. People who don't have an interest in classical music should not
pay for it.
> c) if the arts are important enough, surely private sources will come
> forward to fund them?
What do you mean by "important"?
If private people want to donate money for this because they think it
is important, they will.
> d) it's not the state's business to inculcate an appreciation of the
> arts in those who do not have the means to support such an interest
> (by paying for instruments, private lessons, etc.
Yes. The state should not decide if arts are important and which arts
are important.
>
> This issue, IMO, provides an excellent illustration of why many people
> find 'private enterprise' as a be-all and end-all, sadly deficient.
Wouldn't it be better if a committee of rmcr regulars would make
budget allocation decisions
for all those unwashed masses who have never heard of Janacek? What
should we call it? How about "The People's Central Committee for Arts
Education"?
>
> Everyone (or nearly everyone) agrees that music/art instruction is a
> good thing (as is providing decent housing to the indigent). But the
> profit motive gets in the way of it happening, because there is no
> visible short-term gain associated with it.
Not everyone, and not even nearly everyone agrees on this. Most
probably the majority of the people in the United States oppose this
view. But it is a typical leftist tactic to claim that their
opinion is the majority opinion and the only reason it is not working
is because of stupid capitalism. The bottom line is that Joe Public
does not want to subsidise performances of
the Glagolithic mass, and neither do I. If I want to hear the thing,
I'll buy a ticket. I'm not gonna
ask my neighbour to pay for half of it.
>
> Very sad.
>
> Pat
Cheer up! It could have been worse: you could have been one of the
Darfur refugees.
Dr.Matt
James Kahn <ka...@nospam.panix.com> wrote:
>In <20lBc.311$gs....@news.itd.umich.edu>
>fie...@zektor.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Dr.Matt) writes:
>
>>In article <cb317c$9do$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>>James Kahn <ka...@nospam.panix.com> wrote:
>
>>>I find it amusing that people set up and knock down these straw
>>>men "conservative" views without bothering to find out what the
>>>actual views are. I don't know any conservative who thinks that
>>>education should be left to the free market. I do know plenty
>>>who think that government-run schools are a colossal failure. Those
>>>views aren't contradictory.
>
>>Funny, I know plenty of conservatives who think education should be
>>left to the free market. They tend to be pushing for vouchers--remember
>>vouchers?
>
>Vouchers are no more an example of a free market than food stamps
>or Medicaid. They are financed by tax dollars and distributed by
>the government.
To whom--just to public schools? Get a grip.
Food stamps are distributed to Macdonalds, and Medicaid is distributed
to homeopathic manufacturers today--not because they are actually producing
what the subsidies are for, but because the market bears it.
James Kahn
I'm not interested in discussing Allan Bloom. The claim was that
"conservatives" favor the decimation of arts programs in education.
I disputed that claim. You appear to have nothing to contribute to
that discussion beyond name-calling.
James Kahn
>capa0...@aol.com (Pat Finley) wrote in message >
>> Is the abandonment for support of the arts in schools embraced
>> because
>>
>> a) the arts are not important, or not sufficiently important?
>Yes. More specifically, classical music is not important. it had an
[rest snipped]
Whether or not the arts (i.e. performances, artists, etc.) should be
subsidized is a separate question from what should be taught in schools.
It is perfectly consistent to be skeptical about subsidies, but to support
(as I do) more arts education--just as we support math and reading
education, but we don't (for the most part) subsidize engineers and
publishers.
James Kahn
>In article <cb5f0n$1j5$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>James Kahn <ka...@nospam.panix.com> wrote:
>>In <20lBc.311$gs....@news.itd.umich.edu>
>>fie...@zektor.gpcc.itd.umich.edu (Dr.Matt) writes:
>>
>>>In article <cb317c$9do$1...@reader2.panix.com>,
>>>James Kahn <ka...@nospam.panix.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>I find it amusing that people set up and knock down these straw
>>>>men "conservative" views without bothering to find out what the
>>>>actual views are. I don't know any conservative who thinks that
>>>>education should be left to the free market. I do know plenty
>>>>who think that government-run schools are a colossal failure. Those
>>>>views aren't contradictory.
>>
>>>Funny, I know plenty of conservatives who think education should be
>>>left to the free market. They tend to be pushing for vouchers--remember
>>>vouchers?
>>
>>Vouchers are no more an example of a free market than food stamps
>>or Medicaid. They are financed by tax dollars and distributed by
>>the government.
>To whom--just to public schools? Get a grip.
>Food stamps are distributed to Macdonalds, and Medicaid is distributed
>to homeopathic manufacturers today--not because they are actually producing
>what the subsidies are for, but because the market bears it.
Funny, I thought these things were distributed to individuals, to use
under the guidelines set by the program. I never knew that the government
gave food stamps to McDonald's. One learns so much from reading newsgroups.
Not.
In fact, people cannot generally use food stamps at McDonald's. Only
homeless people are allowed to use food stamps at restaurants, and even then
only at certain approved facilities.
Alan Watkins
If some countries, like the United States, find that they can run
their major art institutions with public/personal rather than private
funding then that is fine if it works for them. If some countries
(like the CR) prefer the state system (with, in recent years, some
public funding being developed by offering attractive tax concessions
to investors) then that is also fine.
My concern is with the children and that, from day one at school, they
should be offered a curriculum that includes the arts (including
music), properly and reliably funded.
I cannot say what the situation is in America but in Scotland and
England (where the thread started) that does not happen. It does
happen in the Czech Republic and it happens in other countries as
well.
The question of how much, if at all, you subsidise the performances is
less important (to me) than educating people into the skills to give
the "performance" whether it be pottery, singing, or percussion.
Arts can change or enhance lives, I believe, and I feel that greater
effort should be made in some countries so that children may be able
to seize that opportunity should it attract them. It does not have to
be classical music or opera. It can be any art form.
My wife gives pottery lessons which are also state subsidised and
offered as an add on "after school" or Saturday morning opportunity.
In some cases this is preceded with "in school" demonstrations of
something they may not normally encounter. It has already transformed
the life of an autistic child and produced, so far, two children who
want to throw pots as a career and may well do so.
That, for me, is the purpose of education in the broadest sense; to
provide children with an insight into as many opportunities as
possible.
It is my view that, if you leave it to chance, you will not have
anyone to play the Glagolitic Mass and the whole question of subsidy
(or not) will go away.