Emerging Classical Composers?
David Cleary
: Just a question for any classical musician or classical music
: aficionado. Are there any emerging composers of classical music in the
: league of a young Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Schumann,
: Chopin, etc. etc. etc. even Gershwin??
I happen to think so. Perhaps it sounds unrealistic to say so, but I'd
like to think my music is well worth a listen, for one. And I've got stuff
out on CD to find, as well.
: Are there any such young and emerging or "hidden" talents among us in
: this era - or are we bereft of this type of genius or talent?
I don't believe we are bereft of major compositional talent. Whether we
get to hear the music may be another question.
: It must
: be out there, and we are either not recognizing it, or those who do,
: have no power to promote it. Everything is cost prohibitive these days,
Just a guess on my part, but IMHO that's a major reason such talents
aren't known. PR is pretty important to all this.
: If you know of any that you really feel have a gift, or think they
: possibly have this drive or ability, who are they, where are they, why
: have we never heard of them, or are we about to. Look around you, find
: out and then post about who you feel might possibly have this kind of
: genius and/or talent.
I can only mention some names of younger composers I feel are worthy. Some
of them, like David Horne and Matt Fields, post to this newsgroup (or have
done so in the past). There are many others who have careers large and
small, such as Lee Hyla, Arthur Levering, Michael Gandolfi, John Zorn,
Augusta Read Thomas, Thomas Oboe Lee, Randall Woolf, Tamar Diesendruck,
Gordon Green, David Lang, Glenn Gass, Jan Swafford, Thomas Lawrence
McKinley, David Rakowski, and scads more.
And myself, of course. I'm David Cleary. :)
Dave
Frank Eggleston
Of those mentioned I've heard music by Thomas, Lee, and Zorn (actually
saw him play with his family band in the Library of Congress).
The problem continues to be one of distribution, i.e., access to
performing groups that are going to be heard. And the whole structure
of music performance (live and recorded) seems to be scaled against
the new composer, except on the least widely distributed local level.
Frank E
--
... not to mention some very questionable travel expenses.
-- The X-Files, "The Beginning"
Lydia Rowden's News
here in New Zealand.
I was wondering if anyone could make suggestions on where to study/who to
study with, after my degree, in Germany. I've heard that the fees are very
cheap for overseas students, and I can't afford to go somewhere like England
or USA without a scholarship, which I'm not pinning my hopes on!
Thanks for you time,
Lydia
Jeff Harrington
: The New York Times featured an article on this subject about a month ago. It
: was a very interesting read. Perhaps you should check it out for their
: perspective. I think the article was called "Where are our young composers?"
: or something in that vain.
That had to be one of the most insulting and musically stultifying
articles ever written about the state of new music. Paul Griffiths
virtually damned an entire generation to musical oblivion in the most
heartless and disgusting manner. In a grand ad hominem attack he accused
most 30-40 something composers of being nothing but derivative hacks.
Like he's even heard 10% of the music written by us. What a creep.
I'd encourage anyone interested in an alternative perspective to see Kyle
Gann's response in the Voice recently.
To hell with Paul Griffiths and the New York Times for their attacks
against emerging composers.
FWIW, David Schiff and Elliott Carter have recently made similar ad
hominem attacks. Elliott Carter going so far as to compare us to the Nazi
artists in our mediocre reuse of past materials. Nazis...
Kyle Gann brilliantly pointed to the so-called Matthew Effect where in a
time of reduced resources all artists that are *in* round up the wagons
and attempt to barricade the other artists from getting a piece of the
pie. I think it's beyond this, frankly, I believe that they are actually
attempting to censor composers by withholding both interest and praise
from anybody who isn't in already.
IMO, though, it's moot. The concert venue has died. Another opera is
moot. What matters now is listens, the number of actual aural experiences
an artist has. The Internet provides the perfect free and uncensored
(censored by being ignored) forum for composers who have
not been lauded by the dinosaurs of today such as Elliott Carter.
Jeff Harrington [--->>[[ New CD - Piano Preludes 1991-98 ]]<<--]
je...@parnasse.com [->>[[ http://www.mp3.com/Jeff_Harrington ]]<<--]
http://www.parnasse.com/jeff.htm --------->>[[ Music ]]<<--------------]
http://www.parnasse.com/vrml.shtml ------->>[[ VR Worlds ]]<<-------------]
Noel Stoutenburg
Jeff Harrington wrote:
<snip>...IMO, though, it's moot. The concert venue has died. Another opera is
moot. What matters now is listens, the number of actual aural experiences
an artist has. The Internet provides the perfect free and uncensored
(censored by being ignored) forum for composers who have
not been lauded by the dinosaurs of today such as Elliott Carter.
And I am not totally convinced that opera is moot. I would argue instead that opera is one niche of a performance class called "Musical Theater", of which Faust and Cats or Phantom of the Opera are both legitimate examples.
joseph ballo
And I am not totally convinced that opera is moot. I
would argue instead that opera is one niche of a performance
class
called "Musical Theater", of which Faust and Cats or
Phantom of the Opera are both legitimate examples.
Yes and you will get viciously flamed for espousing such a
radical view. Some time ago on rec.music.opera, I opined
that
opera is musical theater in which the music plays an
integral and integrated role in advancing plot, character
and
mise-en-scene. The style of music (classic, romantic,
serial, rock, pop) and style of composition (set piece,
through
composed, etc) is secondary. I haven't been back since :-(
drjoe
Noel Stoutenburg
joseph ballo wrote:
> Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
>
> And I am not totally convinced that opera is moot. I
> would argue instead that opera is one niche of a performance
> class
> called "Musical Theater", of which Faust and Cats or
> Phantom of the Opera are both legitimate examples.
>
> Yes and you will get viciously flamed for espousing such a
> radical view.
If we all agreed, it wouldn't be nearly as much fun...
> Some time ago on rec.music.opera, I opined
> that
> opera is musical theater in which the music plays an
> integral and integrated role in advancing plot, character
> and
> mise-en-scene. The style of music (classic, romantic,
> serial, rock, pop) and style of composition (set piece,
> through
> composed, etc) is secondary. I haven't been back since :-(
Their loss.
>
>
> drjoe
Brian Newhouse
<256C62A123B6F0DC.CD7EAB9A...@library-proxy.airnews.net>,
Noel Stoutenburg <mjo...@ticnet.com> wrote:
"--------------18CFC7504E9E62C089000FAC
"Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
"Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"
"
"
[snip]
"
"And I am not totally convinced that opera is moot. I would argue instead that
"opera is one niche of a performance class called "Musical Theater", of
which Faust
"and Cats or Phantom of the Opera are both legitimate examples.
"
Not that Cats or Phantom are particularly good examples of musical
theater. Then again, Faust is just as crappy...
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@newton.crisp.net
Knudsen546
>: aficionado. Are there any emerging composers of classical music in the
>: league of a young Mozart, Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Schumann,
>: Chopin, etc. etc. etc. even Gershwin??
>
>I happen to think so
I happen to know so. There is no magic chemical being pumped into the air
that somehow makes people bad composers.
>: Are there any such young and emerging or "hidden" talents among us in
>: this era - or are we bereft of this type of genius or talent?
>
>I don't believe we are bereft of major compositional talent. Whether we
>get to hear the music may be another question.
Thats the only problem, right there. It's almost pointless to pop out a
universe-shaking work because no one gives a fuck. They really don't. Im going
to kill myself.
-Knud
http://members.aol.com/knudsen546/nightmare.htm
THE WEB'S NO. 1 VOTED THEY MIGHT BE GIANTS SITE! THE OFFICIAL HOME OF LINNELL'S
WRITINGS! EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEWS & MIDI'S!
x-no-archive: yes
Knudsen546
>of them, like David Horne and Matt Fields, post to this newsgroup (or have
>done so in the past).
>
Count me in. I'm damn good.
Sharon F
the same breath is that the quality of certain musicals is to be fair rather
"limited." Many would not be so alarmed if opera and say...Sondheim were
mentioned together.
But then again...?
Just an opinion.
Noel Stoutenburg <mjo...@ticnet.com> wrote in message
news:E99FA49237EA4B65.2B241AAB...@library-proxy.airnew
s.net...
>
>
> joseph ballo wrote:
>
> > Noel Stoutenburg wrote:
> >
> > And I am not totally convinced that opera is moot. I
> > would argue instead that opera is one niche of a performance
> > class
> > called "Musical Theater", of which Faust and Cats or
> > Phantom of the Opera are both legitimate examples.
> >
duti...@my-deja.com
> That had to be one of the most insulting and musically stultifying
> articles ever written about the state of new music. Paul Griffiths
> virtually damned an entire generation to musical oblivion in the most
> heartless and disgusting manner. In a grand ad hominem attack he
accused
> most 30-40 something composers of being nothing but derivative hacks.
> Like he's even heard 10% of the music written by us. What a creep.
Wow...I didn't get that feeling from the article at all. I found many
valid points in it...where is our 30-something composer that the *world*
is interested in? Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin? The sad
fact is that no one cares about us (young Americans) outside our own
country because we basically have nothing to offer to the European
musical community. Composers like Elliott Carter do. This is why he
has to get his opera premiered in Europe instead of America and why not
a single piece of his was played by the New York Philharmonic (his home
town) for his 90th Birthday last year--what a shame. If we can't even
revere our most important elder composers what makes you think that
anyone is going to give a damn about the younger generation?
Marcus Maroney
marcus....@yale.edu
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Jeff Harrington
: Jeff Harrington:
:> That had to be one of the most insulting and musically stultifying
:> articles ever written about the state of new music. Paul Griffiths
:> virtually damned an entire generation to musical oblivion in the most
:> heartless and disgusting manner. In a grand ad hominem attack he
: accused
:> most 30-40 something composers of being nothing but derivative hacks.
:> Like he's even heard 10% of the music written by us. What a creep.
: Wow...I didn't get that feeling from the article at all. I found many
: valid points in it...where is our 30-something composer that the *world*
: is interested in?
The fact that you buy this and that you know for damn sure you haven't
heard but a miniscule proportion of 30-something composer's music speaks
to your naivete about what is happening.
: Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin?
You mean our much-hyped clones of contemporary European composers?
They're out there, there's probably a dozen or so worthy of mention.
They're not huyped like Ades or Benjamin because GOVERNMENT SUPPORT is
virtually non-existent.
Jason Uecchi, for one... maybe? I'm sure you're familiar with his music,
right.
Yuh...
: The sad
: fact is that no one cares about us (young Americans) outside our own
: country because we basically have nothing to offer to the European
: musical community.
Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Who are you to say what the European musical
community wants? Does the Euro community want Gorecki or Kurtag or
Ustvolskaya or Gubaidulian or Boulez? Or Tavener or Davies or Birtwistle.
: Composers like Elliott Carter do.
Big name, good music, well-hyped. He made it before the world went dark
for American young composers. Listen I totally agree that most American
music is crap, but most music ANYWHERE is crap. We just have no
curatorial process going on to promote the good. No critics. No
concerts. Litte or no performances. No audience? That doesn't help.
: This is why he
: has to get his opera premiered in Europe instead of America and why not
: a single piece of his was played by the New York Philharmonic (his home
: town) for his 90th Birthday last year--what a shame. If we can't even
: revere our most important elder composers what makes you think that
: anyone is going to give a damn about the younger generation?
He's had tons of performances by American orchstras and his lack of
support for young American composers speaks to me of rotten privelege and
a self-indulgent personality. I was talking to Carter a few weeks ago at
the American Music Center party. He hasn't got a fuckin' clue as to what
we're up against and to how damaging his comments are.
Screw him and screw anybody who thinks that the reason young American
composers aren't getting played has anything to do with quality. Has
anyone listened to even 1% of the music being written now? Who's playing
the music of young composers now.
Nobody.
Get real. It's the Matthew effect, as Kyle Gann pointed out. It's people
who've made it, bashing the up and comers to maintain their pathetic bit
of status quo. It'as lazy and it's cowardly and it's just pure crap.
And to hell with anybody who associates me or any of my friends with Nazis
as Carter did. That was probably the most callous thing I've ever read
about young artists.
Jeff Harrington [-->>[[ Mercurealities for Flute, Viola, Cello MPEG ]]<<--]
je...@parnasse.com [->>[[ http://www.parnasse.com/mercurealities.mp3 ]]<<--]
http://www.parnasse.com/jeff.htm --------->>[[ My Music ]]<<--------------]
http://www.parnasse.com/vrml.shtml ------->>[[ My Worlds ]]<<-------------]
Dana
-- have nothing to offer to the European musical community. What a sad
thing to say of yourself...
Dana
duti...@my-deja.com wrote in article <7jrg90$lb7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> Wow...I didn't get that feeling from the article at all. I found many
> valid points in it...where is our 30-something composer that the *world*
> is interested in? Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin? The sad
> fact is that no one cares about us (young Americans) outside our own
> country because we basically have nothing to offer to the European
> musical community. Composers like Elliott Carter do. This is why he
> has to get his opera premiered in Europe instead of America and why not
> a single piece of his was played by the New York Philharmonic (his home
> town) for his 90th Birthday last year--what a shame. If we can't even
> revere our most important elder composers what makes you think that
> anyone is going to give a damn about the younger generation?
>
mik...@freewwweb.com
Jeff Harrington <rus...@shell7.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
> Screw him and screw anybody who thinks that the reason young American
> composers aren't getting played has anything to do with quality. Has
> anyone listened to even 1% of the music being written now? Who's
> playing the music of young composers now.
>
> Nobody.
The Louisville Orchestra does. And they deserve praise for doing so.
NPR's Performance Today announced that on Friday 11,1999, the Louisville
Orchestra will be receiving an ASCAP award for its contemporary music
programming.
A visit to http://www.ascap.com/concert/concertnews.html shows that
indeed, in some places, contemporary music is being commissioned,
featured, honored, performed, premiered and released. One must seek it
out, it won't come to you. Here's a sample from 1999 season so far:
COMMISIONED IN 1999 SO FAR:
-Jason Eckardt by Carnegie Hall to write a concerto for piano and
chamber ensemble premiered by Marilyn Nonken in April 1999.
-Stephen Rosenthal
HONORED IN 1999 SO FAR:
-Samuel Jones for being reappointed as Composer in Residence of the
Seattle Symphony for the 1998-99 Season.
-Peter Knell's orchestral work, "Virvatuli," with a second prize in the
Fourth International Witold Lutoslawski Composers Competition.
-Rob Levit, composer and guitarist, with a Maryland State Arts Council
Individual Artist Award for Composition for 1998.
-Richard Nanes with a Silver Angel Music Award. Nanes accepted the award
for his Holocaust Symphony which aired four times nationwide on the
Bravo network.
-James Oliverio and Bob Gillespie with Emmy Awards by the National
Academy of Television Arts and Sciences for their work in television
soundtracks.
-William Grant Still Music with a proclamation honoring the
African-American composer, William Grant Still, by The Mississippi
Legislature.
PERFORMED IN 1999:
-Jackson Berkey's Mass Over a Period of Time
-Sy Brandon's "Celebration Overture"
-David Chaitkin's Aria, for soprano saxophone and strings
-George Kahn's new choral work, Psalm 42
-Dan Locklair's "Hues for Orchestra" by the Louisville Orchestra
-Pat Rasile's original composition, Hale O Ka La for String Quartet
-Dave Reynolds's compositions for the classical guitar
-Brad Ross' work for narrator& symphony orch, A Family for Baby Grand
-Alex Shapiro's 1998 "Trio for Clarinet, Violin and Piano"
-Dr. David Uber's Symphony No. 3 by the Dartmouth College Wind Symphony
-Qu Xiao-Song's third opera, Life On A String, at the Festival d'Automne
a Paris in Munich.
-Morten Lauridsen's choral work O magnum mysterium has been performed
more than two thousands times since it had its world premiere by the Los
Angeles Master Chorale in 1994. The work, described by Lauridsen as "a
quiet song of profound inner joy," has also become one of Theodore
Presser Company's all-time best selling publications. The work has also
been recorded more than a dozen times by such groups as the Robert Shaw
Chorale, the Los Angeles Master Chorale and the Pacific Chorale.
PREMIERED IN 1999 SO FAR:
-Joseph Bertolozzi's orchestral serenade, Suite Poughkeepsie, by the
Hudson Valley Phil
-Bruce Campbell's The Range of Light by the Lansing Concert Band
-James Centorino's Three Dreams for solo violin, cello and piano at the
Boston Conservatory
-Noel Goemanne's Solemn Overture for brass/organ/timpani and choir
-Marvin David Levy's three-act opera, Mourning Becomes Electra
-Mario Lombardo's Gavotte for Oboe and Strings by the New Jersey
Intergenerational Orch
-Mario Lombardo's Waltzing at the Waldorf for orchestra by the Phil Orch
of New Jersey
-Stephen Melillo's songs contained on his Wait of the World CD
-Steven L. Rosenhaus' Strange Loops (String Quartet No. 1)
-Tracey Rush's "Angels in the Snow" by the Knoxville Symphony Orchestra
-Simon A. Sargon's symphonic suite, "Tapestries,"
-Alex Shapiro's "Sonata for Piano" by soloist Barbara Burgan
-Walter Skolnik's Suite (1997) for piano solo by William Cooper
-Gregory Smith's Zoo Song by the Colorado Symphony and the Denver Zoo
-Robert Strassburg's "A Chant Serenely Noble" for voice and piano
-Erich Stem's Jeanette's Pier for string quartet by the NoName Quartet
-William Susman's score to the film, Daydream Believer, at the Film Arts
Festival
-William Susman's new brass quintet, "The Heavens Above,"
-Chen Yi's new cello concerto by the Women's Philharmonic
-Marilyn J. Ziffrin's "Two Songs" for soprano, viola and piano
RELEASED IN 1999 SO FAR:
-Paul Siskind's Bright Morning Stars Are Rising on CD by Heartland Mens
Chorus.
-Ann Sweeten's album, Passages (Orange Band Records)
-Allen Vizzutti's original trumpet works on Emerald Concerto and Other
Gems
Regards,
Mike
Archer070
B's and nobody flamed me.
Maybe it was a slow night..
Samuel Vriezen
>The sad
>fact is that no one cares about us (young Americans) outside our own
>country because we basically have nothing to offer to the European
>musical community.
Not correct. Studying at The Hague you get to meet wagonloads of
interesting young American composers. Varying from crafty and of only
moderate historical interest (but often high direct concert interest)
to crazy, about to be ignored by the entire world and most fun of all
people to get awfully drunk with and having good pieces on top of
that!
>Composers like Elliott Carter do.
Elliot Carter, who is almost as young as Ditters von Dittersdorf.
Worse, sounding it! No wait, he is the set theory version of Zillionth
Species Fuxian counterpoint. The guy never wrote a single interesting
melodic line in his life. It's all orchestration - OK, he's capable.
So was Czerny.
The European Musical Community
>It was very sad reading that you -- I am assuming that you are a composer
>-- have nothing to offer to the European musical community. What a sad
>thing to say of yourself...
I dislike your ironic tone.
Dr.Matt
that's Ferric, actually. We're working on reducing it.
--
Matt Fields, DMA http://listen.to/mattaj TwelveToneToyBox http://start.at/tttb
"The syntax of the Now statement is Now." --Microsoft 'enlightenment'
For spammers: http://e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/wpoison/wpoison.cgi
CD "Kabala", MMC 2087, distributed via your favorite vendors by June 1999
Brian G Mueller
Dr.Matt wrote in message ...
>In article <3761d015...@news.xs4all.nl>,
>The European Musical Community <s...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>"Dana" <c5...@yahoo.com>:
>>
>>>It was very sad reading that you -- I am assuming that you are a composer
>>>-- have nothing to offer to the European musical community. What a sad
>>>thing to say of yourself...
>>
>>I dislike your ironic tone.
>
>that's Ferric, actually. We're working on reducing it.
>
oxidation can be a melancholy process
Charles Eggen
completely out of consideration in this discussion. I had have some
wonderful experiences with New Zealand compostions, all of which are
living composers, and some noted and recorded ones are in their 30s.
Given the relative ease with which we can access information and
experience music from all over the world, at this time, I would
suggest that we all need to make the effort to break ourselves away,
at least occationally, from our North American/European habit.
Charles
rdmtimp
On Sat, 12 Jun 1999 00:23:21 GMT, neither rain nor snow nor gloom of
night kept Mike from writing:
>-Marvin David Levy's three-act opera, Mourning Becomes Electra
>-
>
Actually, that was premiered back in the 60's by the Met Opera.
tim...@GUMBYuswest.net (remove the obvious to reply)
What do you get when you cross a Mafia hit man with a performance artist?
Someone who makes you an offer you can't understand.
Dana
<3761d015...@news.xs4all.nl>...
> "Dana" <c5...@yahoo.com>:
>
> >It was very sad reading that you -- I am assuming that you are a
composer
> >-- have nothing to offer to the European musical community. What a sad
> >thing to say of yourself...
>
> I dislike your ironic tone.
Actually, dear heart, you haven't seen ironic -- yet...
Dana
Archer070
power surge crashed my disc. Fortunately, I was able to recover most of the
data, including an astonishing edition of the Grout volume dated March, 2090.
Much of the text is indecipherable, but I did manage to decrypt the following:
"The direction of Western music did not become readily apparent again until
the advent of The Beatles, who both grossly simplified and revitalized the
musical landscape of the late Twentieth Century. Their influence is st [end
fragment]."
Brian Newhouse
"In rec.music.classical.contemporary duti...@my-deja.com wrote:
[snip to save screen space]
"
": Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin?
"
"You mean our much-hyped clones of contemporary European composers?
"They're out there, there's probably a dozen or so worthy of mention.
"They're not huyped like Ades or Benjamin because GOVERNMENT SUPPORT is
"virtually non-existent.
[snip again, sorry]
" Listen I totally agree that most American
"music is crap, but most music ANYWHERE is crap. We just have no
"curatorial process going on to promote the good. No critics. No
"concerts. Litte or no performances. No audience? That doesn't help.
"
Lack of government support is the least of it. Government support will
get you a few more concert venues and a bit more rehearsal time. But it
won't get you more press coverage, and it won't do much to bring an
audience up to your level.
The real problem new music has in American culture is that, while musical
activity is becoming more and more geographically widespread and
decentralized, the media has become narrower and more monopolized. You
just don't have much press coverage of _anything_. You don't even have
much in the way of magazine coverage. (I was once taken to task on this
newsgroup for complaining about the dearth of music coverage, classical or
pop, in such magazines as The New Republic, The Nation, and National
Review; after all, I was told, they _are_ political magazines. But there
aren't any general-interest cultural magazines left, unless you count The
New Yorker; these magazines are our closest contemporary equivalents,
alas. Besides, they cover movies (but see below)) What few critics there
are become far more important than is good for them, just because they're
there; all the worse when those few include hacks like Paul Griffiths and
Terry Teachout. (Did anyone catch the latter's attempt to set up an
alternative 20th-century canon in the last three Commentarys, by the
way?) There's no chance for a reasonable diversity of opinion to be aired
in public; so crackpot conspiracy theories of music history abound, even
in academia, in the absence of anything to correct them with.
This is a problem afflicting _all_ the arts, by the way, with the
exception of the movies. But the movies, unlike any of the other arts
whether elitist or vulgar, are at least centralized enough in production
and distribution around Los Angeles that journalists can get what they
want just by staying there, and reviewers can rely on the same movies
opening at more or less the same times more or less nationwide. Which is
why we hear so damn much about the movies, and so little about anything
else (even pop music)
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@newton.crisp.net
Jim Curtis
and other instrumentalist competitions but are there any prestigious
competitions for composers? I saw a documentery on Van Cliburn and I have to
believe that all the media hoopla was caused by him winning a competition as
opposed to everyone suddenly coming to the conclusion that he was a great
pianist. So, if there were composer competitions it might give the media a
reason to cover something musical...hell, the dog shows are mass media
events.
Brian Newhouse <newh...@mail.crisp.net> wrote in message
news:newhouse-130...@t1-144.crisp.net...
Brian Newhouse
<Off...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
"I'm wondering something. I know they have all manner of piano competitions
"and other instrumentalist competitions but are there any prestigious
"competitions for composers? I saw a documentery on Van Cliburn and I have to
"believe that all the media hoopla was caused by him winning a competition as
"opposed to everyone suddenly coming to the conclusion that he was a great
"pianist. So, if there were composer competitions it might give the media a
"reason to cover something musical...hell, the dog shows are mass media
"events.
Composer competitions don't work quite the same way as performer
competitions do, since there isn't the added spectacle of actually
watching someone succeed (or blow it completely); it's always finished
work that's under consideration. On the other hand, the same could be
said of literary prizes and record awards; and there's plenty of potential
media hoopla there even for the less obviously mass-market genres;
consider what the British press has made of the Booker Prize for literary
fiction. Outside of record awards--and who takes the Grammies seriously
these days?--the only such prizes available to American composers that I
know of are the Gravemeyer (international, but the United States _is_ part
of the world at large whatever it may like to think) and Pulitzer prizes.
Re: Cliburn, by the way--it wasn't just _any_ competition he won. It was
the Tchaikovsky Competition in Moscow he won--not only during the height
of the Cold War, but by playing the sort of soulfully virtuosic Romantic
music on its home territory that American pianists weren't expected even
by Americans to have the soul for.
[snip to save screen space; it's my posting, and I'll snip what I want to]
--
Brian Newhouse
newh...@newton.crisp.net
duti...@my-deja.com
> Elliot Carter, who is almost as young as Ditters von Dittersdorf.
> Worse, sounding it! No wait, he is the set theory version of Zillionth
> Species Fuxian counterpoint. The guy never wrote a single interesting
> melodic line in his life. It's all orchestration - OK, he's capable.
> So was Czerny.
Of course if you'd listen to pieces like the Cello Sonata, or Allegro
scorravole, or even the double concerto, violin concerto, concerto for
orchestra, or his wonderful songs you would find plenty of interesting
and beautiful melodic ideas--sometimes you have to search for them but
once you find them you realise how clever they are woven into the
fabric. I don't see how you can say it's all orchestration?!? Carter
hardly ever uses extended techniques and while he is quite ingenious in
his orchestral works I never find myself focusing primarily on timbre
when listening to his work...rather the relationships of tempi between
lines and the unique textures produced therefrom. Andriessen, on the
other hand, is one whose every idea I find uninteresting, but maybe it's
just a matter of taste....
Marcus Maroney
marcus....@yale.edu
duti...@my-deja.com
> The fact that you buy this and that you know for damn sure you haven't
> heard but a miniscule proportion of 30-something composer's music
speaks
> to your naivete about what is happening.
Hmm...how can you claim to know what I've heard and what I haven't? Of
course, since I'm only 22 I tend to go for the 20-something composers'
works, if that qualifies. Of course there are 18 composers (myself
included) studying at Yale--all but one under 30 and all actively having
works performed and recognized...have you heard anything by David
Mallamud, Roshanne Etezady, Ken Ueno, Adam Silverman...or some non-Yale
colleagues: Christopher Arrel, Leonard Mark Lewis, Evan Ziporyn, Nick
Didkovsky, Arnold Dreyblatt, Steve Birk....I could drop as many names as
you. Don't make assumptions about people's naivete...or maybe, being a
Tanglewood Fellow this summer will expose me to 5 other prestigious,
hand picked, under 30 composers who will change my mind....
> : Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin?
>
> You mean our much-hyped clones of contemporary European composers?
Who would Benjamin be cloning? I have heard no other piece come out of
anywhere that sounds like Antara. Ades? While he has yet to produce a
true masterpiece, the makings are there and his works are always
interesting. How different from the line of great composers do they
have to be? How many young American composers know that the US kicked
Nancarrow out of the country? How many even know who Nancarrow was?
Ades does.
> They're out there, there's probably a dozen or so worthy of mention.
> They're not huyped like Ades or Benjamin because GOVERNMENT SUPPORT is
> virtually non-existent.
What do you want the government to do? Pay for advertising, recording,
concert scheduling for us? Spoon-feed us a career?
> Jason Uecchi, for one... maybe? I'm sure you're familiar with his
music,
> right.
>
> Yuh...
Again, everyone reading this could namedrop if it pleased them.
> Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Who are you to say what the European
musical
> community wants?
Well, when the Arditti Quartet plays a concert in Florence with music by
Ligeti, Sciarrino, Scodannibio, Xenakis, and Berio on it, it is standing
room only. I asked if every concert was like this---several people in
the audience said it was a "light crowd". When the Ensemble 21 or
Speculum Musicae plays a concert in Merkin Hall in NYC, it is not even
sold out (it's a very small hall). Even when the American Composers
Orchestra plays in Carnegie Hall, they're lucky if the seats are
half-full. When Melinda Wagner's Flute Concerto was played there, there
were empty seats everywhere....the piece that won this country's most
coveted award. Of course she's 40-something isn't she? I guess that
doesn't count. And yes, I was at both of these concerts.
> We just have no
> curatorial process going on to promote the good. No critics. No
> concerts. Litte or no performances. No audience? That doesn't help.
Living in the tri-state area I could see a concert with at least one
piece on it by a living composer at least 3 times a week (sometimes
every day)....what more do you want?
> He's had tons of performances by American orchstras and his lack of
> support for young American composers speaks to me of rotten privelege
and
> a self-indulgent personality.
Oh yeah, I was at his 90th Birthday concert given at Columbia
University...sadly, the New York Phil ignores him as does the American
Composers Orchestra. At least the Brooklyn Phil paid him the respect he
deserves.
> I was talking to Carter a few weeks ago
at
> the American Music Center party. He hasn't got a fuckin' clue as to
what
> we're up against and to how damaging his comments are.
Well, when I talked to him when he came to Yale he seemed very well
informed. The fact that he has his own aesthetic principles is
something I can deal with...I certainly wouldn't want to write music
like him but that doesn't mean I complain about what he likes and
therefore supports. Obviously the Aaron Jay Kernises and Michael Torkes
of America are doing just fine without his support, they just go
elsewhere...are you going to really sit here and chalk up every
successful young composer (European and American) as being just
"well-hyped" or having access to some magical "curatorial process" that
produces instant success in the composition world? Shame on you. I'm
more prepared to chalk it up to talent.
> Screw him and screw anybody who thinks that the reason young American
> composers aren't getting played has anything to do with quality. Has
> anyone listened to even 1% of the music being written now? Who's
playing
> the music of young composers now.
American Composers Orchestra, Boston Musica Viva, Speculum Musicae,
Ensemble 21, Seventh Blackbird, Elm City Ensemble, New York New Music
Ensemble, Juilliard Orchestra, Indianapolis Symphony, Boston Chamber
Ensemble, Cleveland Chamber Orchestra, Haddonfield Symphony Orchestra,
Civic Orchestra of Chicago, New World Orchestra, New York Woodwind
Quintet, need I go on?
> Nobody.
See above.
> Get real. It's the Matthew effect, as Kyle Gann pointed out. It's
people
> who've made it, bashing the up and comers to maintain their pathetic
bit
> of status quo. It'as lazy and it's cowardly and it's just pure crap.
What's lazy is waiting for the government to provide you with an outlet
for your music instead of finding your own. Take David Lang and BOCA.
Why can't you form your own ensemble to play your music? Think it won't
work: Reich, Glass, Dreyblatt, and Lang/Wolff all did it and BOCA
concerts are sold out everywhere. Of course, they got off their asses
and stopped complaining and made their own noise.
> And to hell with anybody who associates me or any of my friends with
Nazis
> as Carter did. That was probably the most callous thing I've ever
read
> about young artists.
Maybe you're relying too heavily on Carter's opinion. If you're as
confident as you sound about your own music, these remarks wouldn't
matter.
David Cleary
: What's lazy is waiting for the government to provide you with an outlet
: for your music instead of finding your own. Take David Lang and BOCA.
: Why can't you form your own ensemble to play your music? Think it won't
: work: Reich, Glass, Dreyblatt, and Lang/Wolff all did it and BOCA
: concerts are sold out everywhere. Of course, they got off their asses
: and stopped complaining and made their own noise.
Sad to say that getting off one's butt and getting something of this sort
going doesn't always work out. The few remaining composers consortium
groups of this kind in the Boston area have the same problem: chronic lack
of audience despite serious beating of the bushes, chronic lack of money
(sorry, but concerts cost serious money to put on), and lack of support
from local critics. In fact, these kinds of groups have pretty much folded
up after a decent run in the '80's and '90's. And there were a bunch of
them at one time.
What you're suggesting can work, but IMHO the most important element one
needs to mention is luck. For each BOCA, there are scads of groupings like
this that have died or can't seem to take off. And it's not for lack of
trying, unfortunately.
No reason not to try, of course. :)
Dave
Brian G Mueller
duti...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7k3c47$ti7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
How many young American composers know that the US kicked
>Nancarrow out of the country? How many even know who Nancarrow was?
>Ades does.
Um, I do, too. Fine composer and you have to love his player piano work.
How about Harry Partch, now there was a revolutionary! But it took a
retrospective and new biography in order to get his name and music into
circulation again.
>
>> We just have no
>> curatorial process going on to promote the good. No critics. No
>> concerts. Litte or no performances. No audience? That doesn't help.
>
>Living in the tri-state area I could see a concert with at least one
>piece on it by a living composer at least 3 times a week (sometimes
>every day)....what more do you want?
Here in Minnesota I can also see concerts, but there is no decent feedback
to get the public excited for or appalled by new music. Hell, the Atlantic
Monthly and the New Yourker don't even have decent classical columns
anymore. Possibly a result of the specialization of society?
>Obviously the Aaron Jay Kernises and Michael Torkes
>of America are doing just fine without his [Carter's] support, they just go
>elsewhere...are you going to really sit here and chalk up every
>successful young composer (European and American) as being just
>"well-hyped" or having access to some magical "curatorial process" that
>produces instant success in the composition world? Shame on you. I'm
>more prepared to chalk it up to talent.
Well, honestly, the new music I enjoy the most is being written by women --
Zwilich, Monk, Larsen and many others whose names escape my fragile memory.
You can have Aaron Jay Kernis and Michael Torke. Plenty of melody, just not
much else to keep my attention, IMHO.
>
>> Get real. It's the Matthew effect, as Kyle Gann pointed out. It's
>people
>> who've made it, bashing the up and comers to maintain their pathetic
>bit
>> of status quo. It'as lazy and it's cowardly and it's just pure crap.
>
>What's lazy is waiting for the government to provide you with an outlet
>for your music instead of finding your own. Take David Lang and BOCA.
>Why can't you form your own ensemble to play your music? Think it won't
>work: Reich, Glass, Dreyblatt, and Lang/Wolff all did it and BOCA
>concerts are sold out everywhere. Of course, they got off their asses
>and stopped complaining and made their own noise.
Oh wait, I'll just save up my money to fund my own group... AFTER I make
enough to eat.
What you forget is that all these composers also thrived in the artistic
explosions of the late 50s and 60s. They were able to guerilla onto the
scene, which I think is great! Others had the support of a college or
university music department. But that is becoming much harder now as
culture continues closing its ears with complacency. Sure my stuff's not
masterwork material, but it's not for lack of trying that it's not being
heard.
Dr.Matt
>>Nancarrow out of the country? How many even know who Nancarrow was?
>>Ades does.
As I recall, he was kicked out on a five-year MacArthur Genius Grant
and chose to live in Mexico City during that time, then returned.
Have I heard wrong?
George Byrd
on "Re: Emerging Classical Composers?"
fie...@frogger.rs.itd.umich.edu (Dr.Matt) wrote:
>>duti...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7k3c47$ti7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>> How many young American composers know that the US kicked
>>>Nancarrow out of the country? How many even know who Nancarrow was?
>>>Ades does.
>As I recall, he was kicked out on a five-year MacArthur Genius Grant
>and chose to live in Mexico City during that time, then returned.
>Have I heard wrong?
<delurk>
Um, yes. Conlon Nancarrow fought with the Abraham Lincoln brigade in
the late '30s Spanish Civil War. Upon returning to the US he was
harrassed by the government. The Abraham Lincoln Brigade is, I think,
still listed as a "subversive paramilitary organization" by those in
government who maintain such nonsense. Nancarrow moved to Mexico in
1940.
Many of his piano roll works were recorded in the late '70s and were
published on the 1750 Arch label.
GB
--
Opinions above are NOT those of APAN, Inc. and are NOT legal advice.
"I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?"
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the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <WEh93.496$FK.1...@news.itd.umich.edu>, Dr.Matt
<fie...@frogger.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
> >duti...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7k3c47$ti7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > How many young American composers know that the US kicked
> >>Nancarrow out of the country? How many even know who Nancarrow was?
> >>Ades does.
>
> As I recall, he was kicked out on a five-year MacArthur Genius Grant
> and chose to live in Mexico City during that time, then returned.
> Have I heard wrong?
Yeah you have.
Nancarrow left the US shortly after returning from fighting in the
Abraham Lincoln Brigade during the Spanish Civil War, because he
couldn't get a new passport and was concerned with the possibility of
other reprisals for his political views. He lived in Mexico City,
becoming a Mexican citizen in, I think, the 1950s. He was among the
first few composers to receive a MacArthur Fellowship, but I think his
first return to the States was prior to that when recordings of several
pieces were played at New Music America when iut was in San Francisco
in 1982. After that he came to the US a few other times, but never
returned to live. He died nearly two years ago in Mexico City.
Dr.Matt
George Byrd <geo...@apan.org> wrote:
>In <rec.music.compose>, Tue, 15 Jun 1999 01:04:54 GMT,
> on "Re: Emerging Classical Composers?"
>
>>>duti...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7k3c47$ti7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>>> How many young American composers know that the US kicked
>>>>Nancarrow out of the country? How many even know who Nancarrow was?
>>>>Ades does.
>
>>As I recall, he was kicked out on a five-year MacArthur Genius Grant
>>and chose to live in Mexico City during that time, then returned.
>>Have I heard wrong?
>
>
>Um, yes. Conlon Nancarrow fought with the Abraham Lincoln brigade in
>the late '30s Spanish Civil War. Upon returning to the US he was
>harrassed by the government. The Abraham Lincoln Brigade is, I think,
>still listed as a "subversive paramilitary organization" by those in
>government who maintain such nonsense. Nancarrow moved to Mexico in
>1940.
>
>Many of his piano roll works were recorded in the late '70s and were
>published on the 1750 Arch label.
Oh, so in other words, Macarthy sought to take away what Macarthur had
given. Life is ironic.
Tom Duff
> >>Nancarrow out of the country? How many even know who Nancarrow was?
> >>Ades does.
>
> and chose to live in Mexico City during that time, then returned.
> Have I heard wrong?
avoid the attention of the US Government.
The 1750 Arch recordings were
released starting around 1979.
His Macarthur was granted in 1982.
(The first Macarthur `Genius Awards'
were given in 1981.)
Shortly thereafter he made the
first of a few trips back to the US,
but he lived in Mexico City until
his death on 8/10/1997.
--
Tom Duff. All colors are arbitrary.
GusMahler2
HAHAAHHAH..
Seriously, I agree with him about Carter AND Andriessen .. but i do see while
Carter's "lines" may be apparent in the Pieces Mr. Maroney mentioned, I can
see why people may not exactly call them.. " Melodic".
A long haired man's 2 cents.
P. K. Waddle
GusMahler2
Let's see , I am currently writing concertos for members of THREE top 5
orchestras, I was on NPR AGAIN last week, and when you pick colleagues you
mention mark and Chris... you really ARE practicing to be one of those
composition teachers who only like music other composers like ARen't you? Why
dont you just change your name to Dan Welcher or Stephen Stucket . et al.
I expected more from you Marcus. ( shaking head in disgust.)
PKW
duti...@my-deja.com
> Well Looky there, Now that MARCUS is at yale.. hes trumpeting carter.
> HAHAAHHAH..
Actually I've always been a fan of Carter's. Chris rode with me to
Dallas to hear Welcher's Bright Wings premiere and we listened to
Carter the whole way up =) That was in 96....
Marcus Maroney
Hmm, sorry I didn't mention your name...I guess 2 out of the 15 or so I
mentioned being from UT is too much....Top 5 orchestras is a misnomer that
can no longer be claimed (is Philly really still better than San Fran?
LA?)...Commissions are a poor judge of quality....Nancarrow had none for
80% of his lifetime...I don't know exactly the tone your reply was
supposed to be in but don't try slapping credentials at me unless I attack
you personally...
Anyway, who are the concertos for? Any in the NY area? I'd like to come
hear their premieres.
Also, considering you don't know the range of my musical likes or dislikes
or anyone else on the newsgroup I'd refrain from making silly
quantifications about it.
Cheers,
Marcus Maroney
marcus....@yale.edu
Samuel Vriezen
Well, at least Andriessen has a sense of line and of theatre but he's
too conceptual for me as well. Carter I would much rather oppose to
Ferneyhough whose gestural vocabulary, even for its occasional
dependence on lots of effects, is richer, more precise, more
imaginative. As to the orchestration: I do not mean timbre itself,
rather its juxtapositions; I meant distribution and stratification of
gesture. You use the word texture somewhere. Perhaps I'd rather call
it 'form' - that's where Carter is something of a virtuoso. But the
gestures themselves are so flat, all the time. The concerto for
orchestra being the prime example. I simply can't listen to it.
Perhaps think of it like this: in Carter's style, horribly bad taste
notes are impossible. And that is not an advantage: it means no spice.
M.E.A.
s...@xs4all.nl (Samuel Vriezen) wrote:
> duti...@my-deja.com:
[snip]
>
> Perhaps think of it like this: in Carter's style, horribly bad taste
> notes are impossible. And that is not an advantage: it means no spice.
>
Mumble mumble... I wonder which are the possible "horribly bad taste
notes", in general.
Seriously, does anybody think that the ideat of "bad taste notes"
*really* makes sense? Honestly, I perceive it as meaningless as the
famous "too many notes" comment...
Note: all the above has not to be intended as a flame. I found also
myself sometimes arguing about note placement in some compositions.
Still, I'd like to start a discussion on this subject. Don't you
think that all this topic around "bad taste notes" is horribly
subjective? And shouldn't we start to evaluate a composer's value based
on objective considerations? Does anybody know which in the hell can be
an "objective approach" ????
Regards,
Maurizio
Dr.Matt
MY notes are Less Filling!
Edwin Ross Quantrall
Dr.Matt wrote:
> As we say in the states:
> MY notes are Less Filling!
Well I think that notes should taste great! ;-)
--
Edwin
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David Olen Baird
> And shouldn't we start to evaluate a composer's value based
>on objective considerations? Does anybody know which in the hell can be
>an "objective approach" ????
I honestly would like to think that some sort of objectivity could be
applied to art. However, other than monetary value, I don't think it
is possible. Something either moves you deeply in an emotional sense,
or it doesn't. Objectivity is impossible because the emotional
resonances within you are developed over a lifetime and are too
complex to explicate in any useful sense that could be called
objective. Also, individuals are so diverse that what might be
objectivly obvious for me is not for you.
--------------------------
David Olen Baird, Composer
Email: mailto:davb...@tfs.net
Home Page: http://www.tfs.net/~davbaird/
Dave Smey
>Seriously, does anybody think that the ideat of "bad taste notes"
>*really* makes sense? Honestly, I perceive it as meaningless as the
>famous "too many notes" comment...
>
intrinsically bad, but rather bad in relation to others. (This is really
SV's complaint about Carter, that the context creates no expectation (in
him) for this note as opposed to that one.) I agree that average talk about
music is really not sophisticated enough to explain what context a
particular passage is creating.
>Don't you
>think that all this topic around "bad taste notes" is horribly
>subjective? And shouldn't we start to evaluate a composer's value based
>on objective considerations? Does anybody know which in the hell can be
>an "objective approach" ????
If you elaborate on why you think what you think, in excruciating detail,
your idea can become "intersubjective" - you can make other people think
what you think. Nothing important about music is objective (except of
course, the way Mozart develops the passageways in my baby's brain, thereby
increasing her future success potential and insuring her a happy life! but I
sarcastically digress) and I am shocked, shocked that as a composer yourself
(correct?) you would think so.
-D
Samuel Vriezen
>In article <3766e1be...@news.xs4all.nl>,
> s...@xs4all.nl (Samuel Vriezen) wrote:
>> duti...@my-deja.com:
>
>[snip]
>>
>> Perhaps think of it like this: in Carter's style, horribly bad taste
>> notes are impossible. And that is not an advantage: it means no spice.
>>
>
>Mumble mumble... I wonder which are the possible "horribly bad taste
>notes", in general.
>
>Seriously, does anybody think that the ideat of "bad taste notes"
>*really* makes sense? Honestly, I perceive it as meaningless as the
>famous "too many notes" comment...
Well, for me it reflects attitude more than formal problems. 'Bad
Taste' just means the possibility of offending the style in which
you're working: perhaps just very strange notes. Mozart, Beethoven,
Mahler, Rihm, Stravinsky, Berio, Ferneyhough seem to be very good at
it. Bach as well, but the really strange note can always subtly be
accounted for in an even more strange way. Carter never surprises me
beyond being a technical warhorse.
(although I really enjoy the 2nd quartet. It has character. It even
has characters)
>Note: all the above has not to be intended as a flame.
Of course.
> found also
>myself sometimes arguing about note placement in some compositions.
>Still, I'd like to start a discussion on this subject. Don't you
>think that all this topic around "bad taste notes" is horribly
>subjective?
No, merely highly subjective.
>and shouldn't we start to evaluate a composer's value based
>on objective considerations?
Not me!
>Does anybody know which in the hell can be
>an "objective approach" ????
Counting pitches? sort of stuff?
Samuel Vriezen
>
>>Seriously, does anybody think that the ideat of "bad taste notes"
>>*really* makes sense? Honestly, I perceive it as meaningless as the
>>famous "too many notes" comment...
>>
>Well, a "bad taste note" needs a context, obviously. No note can be
>intrinsically bad, but rather bad in relation to others. (This is really
>SV's complaint about Carter, that the context creates no expectation (in
>him) for this note as opposed to that one.)
Almost. I can hear his stylistic consistency. Simple major triads at
some points would appear absurd in his style, or something like that.
Shame he doesn't appear to write them.
Jeff Harrington
[ From: duti...@my-deja.com ]
[ Subject: Re: Emerging Classical Composers? ]
[ Newsgroups: rec.music.compose,rec.music.classical,rec.music.classical.contemporary ]
[ Message-ID: <7jrg90$lb7$1...@nnrp1.deja.com> ]
Jeff Harrington:
> That had to be one of the most insulting and musically stultifying
> articles ever written about the state of new music. Paul Griffiths
> virtually damned an entire generation to musical oblivion in the most
> heartless and disgusting manner. In a grand ad hominem attack he
accused
> most 30-40 something composers of being nothing but derivative hacks.
> Like he's even heard 10% of the music written by us. What a creep.
Wow...I didn't get that feeling from the article at all. I found many
valid points in it...where is our 30-something composer that the *world*
is interested in? Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin? The sad
fact is that no one cares about us (young Americans) outside our own
country because we basically have nothing to offer to the European
musical community. Composers like Elliott Carter do. This is why he
has to get his opera premiered in Europe instead of America and why not
a single piece of his was played by the New York Philharmonic (his home
town) for his 90th Birthday last year--what a shame. If we can't even
revere our most important elder composers what makes you think that
anyone is going to give a damn about the younger generation?
Marcus Maroney
marcus....@yale.edu
Jeff Harrington
: Jeff Harrington <rus...@shell7.ba.best.com> wrote:
:> The lack of support I speak of is philosophical support for art music in
:> general. Accusing many of us as being like "Nazi Artists" and merely
:> derivative speaks of an unbelievably horrendous lack of respect and
:> courtesy.
:>
:> Fuck Carter... another soon to be extinct dinosaur.
: That you don't see the irony....
I see the irony from your perspective. But you don't quite get what I was
saying, I believe. And since you are somewhat part of his ilk, I'll
'splain it a bit bettah...
First, progressive modernism has failed to attract an audience. This is
one reason why Carter is railing against people who've taken a good look
to the past rather than base their entire musical technique on this
nonsense of constant revolutionary technical progress. It's audience
jealousy for one thing...
Second, there is no way that Carter's achievement, which I believe is very
limited and suspect of "hiding nothing to say behind a cloud of
complexity" will ever become a significant cultural force again. His time
has come and gone. Plus he'll be dead soon. Thus who will uphold the
flag of his achievement? Picker? Machover? His other students?
Nah...
Thus roars the dying dinosaur against the slimy backward-looking rats who
devour his carcass.
:)
As you and others may know, I believe that culture will be moving sideways
for quite a while now... exploring the nooks and crannies of
individualistic approaches to techniques that do not pretend to be
revolutionary or progressive. Look what other great arch-modernists have
done this, Ligeti? Lutoslawski? Berio? It's not a backward approach if
it produces new experiences that speak to today's audiences. It's about
having something beautiful to say - it's not about the language that it is
written in.
That this might be considered problematic is incredible and speaks to the
unbelievable pretentiousness of musical privelege. Art music is in
serious trouble. We don't need other serious musicians attacking young
composers because they don't adopt very risky and problematic techniques.
It's about the art, silly. Not the technique. That he would look down from
his Mount Olympus as the world's greatest composer and pronounce us "like
Nazi's" is amazing. Art first, I say... But then, hey, maybe he was
never really interested in expression, maybe he was really just interested
in technical realization of a technical vision in an (to quote him)
INTERESTING WAY?
Ha...
In a way, Carter's and other's naive clinging to progressive modernism is
similar to the fate of Communists around the world. (Funny how he calls
us Nazi's and now I'm calling him a Commie?).
How ironic...
His unshakable faith in the imperative of his technique and how he brands
anyone who strays from his genre or never even approaches it out of lack
of interest as naive or "like Nazis" is merely the desparate attack of a
dying man against his imaginary enemies.
He has failed and he will be forgotten. Thus he is a dinosaur. This
doesn't mean that he hasn't written some interesting music. But then I
like Ockeghem and Bruckner too...
Ironic isn't it. I just wish I could have said this to his face at the
AMC party, but I was too busy trying to stand up straight and I get really
polite when I'm drunk. Actually, my first impulse usually is to punch any
bastard who associates me with Nazism in the nose with my fist.
Jeff Harrington [-->>[[ Mercurealities for Flute, Viola, Cello MPEG ]]<<--]
je...@parnasse.com [->>[[ http://www.parnasse.com/mercurealities.mp3 ]]<<--]
http://www.parnasse.com/jeff.htm --------->>[[ My Music ]]<<--------------]
http://www.parnasse.com/vrml.shtml ------->>[[ My Worlds ]]<<-------------]
poo...@my-deja.com
Jeff Harrington <rus...@shell7.ba.best.com> quoted Marcus Maroney
as saying:
> is interested in? Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin? The
sad
> fact is that no one cares about us (young Americans) outside our own
> country because we basically have nothing to offer to the European
> musical community. Composers like Elliott Carter do.
It strikes me as rather odd that a country of 250 million people
should be so uniform as to produce not a single young composer who
has something to offer Europeans.
J
Bob Lombard
'Bad
>Taste' just means the possibility of offending the style in which
>you're working: perhaps just very strange notes. Mozart, Beethoven,
>Mahler, Rihm, Stravinsky, Berio, Ferneyhough seem to be very good at
>it. Bach as well, but the really strange note can always subtly be
>accounted for in an even more strange way. Carter never surprises me
>beyond being a technical warhorse.
OK, you lost me there. How the hell do you offend a style? Beethoven, for
one, certainly offended a lot of *people* with his music, but according to
Rosen, it was all within the Classical style after 1805 or so (Rosen - and
I - think he played with the "proto-Romantic style for a while there).
Mozart's fantasias weren't in sonata form - big deal. The other guys you
mention were creating styles as they went, and offending *people* along the
way. I suspect that you and I are using different meanings of "offend".
Bob L
Dr.Matt
Jeff Harrington <rus...@shell7.ba.best.com> wrote:
[..]
> and I get really
>polite when I'm drunk.
HAHAHAHAH! Yes, buy the man a whisky sour on me!
> Actually, my first impulse usually is to punch any
>bastard who associates me with Nazism in the nose with my fist.
That's funny, I've seen your nose and I didn't see any Nazism in it at
all. Why would I ever associate you with your fist?
>Jeff Harrington [-->>[[ Mercurealities for Flute, Viola, Cello MPEG ]]<<--]
>je...@parnasse.com [->>[[ http://www.parnasse.com/mercurealities.mp3 ]]<<--]
>http://www.parnasse.com/jeff.htm --------->>[[ My Music ]]<<--------------]
>http://www.parnasse.com/vrml.shtml ------->>[[ My Worlds ]]<<-------------]
>
anonym™
>
> In article <376a8ef1$0$2...@nntp1.ba.best.com>,
> Jeff Harrington <rus...@shell7.ba.best.com> quoted Marcus Maroney
> as saying:
> > is interested in? Where is our Thomas Ades or George Benjamin? The
> sad
> > fact is that no one cares about us (young Americans) outside our own
> > country because we basically have nothing to offer to the European
> > musical community. Composers like Elliott Carter do.
>
> It strikes me as rather odd that a country of 250 million people
> should be so uniform as to produce not a single young composer who
> has something to offer Europeans.
Perhaps someone would like to try setting to music the following words,
and then you can take credit as the lyricist, since they are yours.
------
> Okay.
>
> Ahem. Okay, I'm trying it, but....
>
> Heeey, wait a sec. This is goood. Oh my god.
>
> Jeeze, feels like my heads coming off. Oooh. Baby.
>
> Squirt.
--------
It's be a real hit in Portugal.