Seattle Symphony's 17-year old Assistant Conductor
Rugby
Priors: "To me, music is about the search for beauty through
suffering, but a lot of the European establishments do not do that.
They are preoccupied with looking arty-farty and not enjoying the
music they are making."
Not sure how one looks "arty-farty" , but sounds like fun.
The Telegraph crtitic: " But I think what really bothers the old guard
is the thought that he might be a rip-roaring success. "
Probably fortunately, I cant recall much of what I was doing at 17;
but it was also 1965. Weren't Korngold and Mozart conducting at 17 ?
Regards, Rugby
Gerard
> Seattle goes even younger than the Los Angelos Phil :
>
See also thread "Seattle's new assistant conductor" of January 17.
OW
for a younger audience? At this point, it seems almost as if it's no
longer a question of why to appoint a 17-year-old to this position,
but why not?
Christopher Webber
There's nothing new in this, even for England. Simon Rattle was
conducting major bands at a similar age, and was made assistant
conductor of the Bournemouth SO at 19. Enescu, as I recall, was at the
helm even younger (George and Samir, where are you?)
Any indignation seems to arise from the Western world's absurd dual
standards. We worship children so much that we want them to remain in
that sweet state of innocence until they're about 30 or so, at which
time they're expected to flip over into adulthood and repeat the cycle
by producing the next generation of innocent angels.
Meanwhile, polite society succumbs to a sort of creeping infantilism
which benefits only the sales of psychoanalysts' chairs.
The idea that anyone of 17 might (a) know what he or she wants to do;
(b) excel at it; and (c) not be afraid to say so in (d) "elitist" terms
simply horrifies the fat commercial controllers who rely on infantilism
to rake in their filthy lucre ... except, naturally, for those media
controllers canny enough to sponsor the 17 year old themselves!
--
___________________________
Christopher Webber, Blackheath, London, UK.
http://www.zarzuela.net
M forever
wrote:
I think you are probing far too deep and too sociological for reasons
for this. If you check out his videos on youtube, you will see that
while he may be very "talented", he also doesn't really know how to
conduct. He does have the basics down, but apart from that, its mostly
dramatic gymnastics. He should go and study music properly, then start
working his way up instead of striding on the scene and demanding to
be given an assistant job by a London orchestra. Apparently, his
parents do a lot of behind-the-scenes string pulling and apparently,
and they buy him gigs. Good for him. As you pointed out yourself, when
Rattle was young, his youth was not a hurdle for him. So why would it
be for this dude? In his case, he is simply too young and too
inexperienced at this point. And, on top of that, too full of himself.
He would have a very hard time getting accepted by professional
orchestral musicians. But not because they are "envious". Because they
are trained and seasoned pros themselves and they deserve better than
a little poser like him.
O
<c...@zarzuela.net.invalid> wrote:
> The idea that anyone of 17 might (a) know what he or she wants to do;
> (b) excel at it; and (c) not be afraid to say so in (d) "elitist" terms
> simply horrifies the fat commercial controllers who rely on infantilism
> to rake in their filthy lucre ... except, naturally, for those media
> controllers canny enough to sponsor the 17 year old themselves!
Count me among the horrified.
Even though I have no commercial stake in this young man, the fact is
that most people at 17 have no concept of what they'll eventually do in
life. In fact, of those who enter college for undergraduate studies,
only 40% end up working in the field of their major.
-Owen
SG
Christopher, I'm here (-:, but in this particular instance, I have
doubts. Your examples are cogent, and to that one could add Mengelberg
getting to the helm of Concertgebouw Orchestra while being a mere 24.
Honestly, it's hard to grasp from reviews alone how young Mengelberg,
Enescu, or others conducted at the time so there's no way to honestly
compare these things.
Back to the case here, I didn't want to respond until I went patiently
through all the offerings on youtube, and, applied to this particular
young man, he does belong in school, not on a stage, in my opinion.
(Sorry if that seems to make me predictable and ageist au rebours.)
He simply is not a conductor yet, he is actually worse than Dudamel -
which is quite natural, given the age difference. He uses the baton
not as a fine sword, but as a hammer, and doesn't have the "abc" of
the profession down. Well, perhaps he has the "abc" but he didn't get
to "d" yet.
He does show some "temperament," whether musical or extra- still to
be settled, no question about that, but that's far from enough.
regards,
SG
SG
"*À* rebours"
Allen
testimony--Degree: petroleum engineering;career: banking.
I wonder how many of the readers of this ng have similar stoeies.
Allen
Matthew�B.�Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:DkS9kcHc...@217.169.1.80:
> OW <bjm...@aol.com> writes:
>> Does this show how desperate the world of classical music is getting for
>> a younger audience? At this point, it seems almost as if it's no longer
>> a question of why to appoint a 17-year-old to this position, but why
>> not?
>
> There's nothing new in this, even for England. Simon Rattle was
> conducting major bands at a similar age, and was made assistant
> conductor of the Bournemouth SO at 19.
I remember reading a review in The Times (I was temping at Bank of America
World Headquarters in San Francisco, and was able to buy the paper a day
old at the time!) of a concert with the conducting duties shared by Rattle
and Sir Adrian Boult. Since Sir Adrian gave up public performance after
1978, and that fits my memory of when I was doing that temp work, then-Mr.
Rattle was something like 23 at the time.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
SG
Terry, fwiw about Lorin I am somewhere in the middle - I think he is a
terrific professional, intelligent, secure, superb baton technique. I
also feel he "dried up" in recent decades - he seems literally bored
and it shows in the music.
Among conductorial Wunderkinds, Roberto Benzi should be mentioned as
well. A talented guy, actually, still alive if I believe.
My problem with Priors is that I don't find him very good (so far).
To make clear it's not just the age involved, I also don't understand
how Rotterdam could go from Gergiev to Nézet-Séguin, who's not THAT
young, and is better than Mr. Priors, but arguably worse than Dudamel.
Excxessive aerobics for the less educated music lovers do not a
conductor make.
Whatever one may say about the younger or the older Maazel, in front
of an orchestra he was and is completely professional.
regards,
SG
M forever
> Terry, fwiw about Lorin I am somewhere in the middle - I think he is a
> terrific professional, intelligent, secure, superb baton technique. I
> also feel he "dried up" in recent decades - he seems literally bored
> and it shows in the music.
>
> Among conductorial Wunderkinds, Roberto Benzi should be mentioned as
> well. A talented guy, actually, still alive if I believe.
>
> My problem with Priors is that I don't find him very good (so far).
>
> To make clear it's not just the age involved, I also don't understand
> how Rotterdam could go from Gergiev to Nézet-Séguin, who's not THAT
> young, and is better than Mr. Priors, but arguably worse than Dudamel.
That's very easy to explain. Just look up who the agents of these
young conductors are who get shuffled around everywhere, N-S, Dudamel,
Harding, all these young "talents".
> Excxessive aerobics for the less educated music lovers do not a
> conductor make.
>
> Whatever one may say about the younger or the older Maazel, in front
> of an orchestra he was and is completely professional.
Indeed, and I have heard many very good concerts with him in Berlin,
mostly during the 80s, before he got pissed off and canceled all his
dates with them because they elected Abbado instead of him. He did
come back later in the 90s, but I never heard him since then. I did
hear him a few times with the SOBR which was generally very good, too.
It is true that he can come across as a bored routinier for whom all
that is just way too simple, but most of the time when he conducted in
Berlin in the 80s, he was totally "on" and the concerts were not only
very well prepared, but also very "exciting".
Kerrison
> Christopher Webber <c...@zarzuela.net.invalid> appears to have caused the
Have you guys checked his website yet for his activities as a
composer? You won't believe your eyes. This 17-year-old, in the last 3
or 4 years, has written 4 symphonies, 3 orchestral suites (the longest
lasting 90 minutes); assorted symphonic poems; a requiem; 2 operas and
2 ballets (and one of these also lasts 90 minutes); 2 piano concertos;
a violin concerto; an oboe concerto; great wadges of solo piano music,
songs, choral works, etc.
And that's only what he himself claims to have written. When you read
what his conducting repertoire consists of, well, for starters, all
the Brahms, Beethoven, Mahler and Prokofiev symphonies, seven by
Shostakovich and five by Vaughan Williams (and that's only skimming
the surface of the list); the complete Ring Cycle and four other
Wagner operas; seven Rimsky-Korsakov operas, five by Richard Strauss;
four each by Tchaikovsky and Janacek; plus ... but hey, you can wade
through all those repertoire screens yourselves and when you've done
that come back and tell us if you think you smell a rat!
Christopher Webber
>> The idea that anyone of 17 might (a) know what he or she wants to do;
>> (b) excel at it; and (c) not be afraid to say so in (d) "elitist" terms
>> simply horrifies the fat commercial controllers who rely on infantilism
>> to rake in their filthy lucre ... except, naturally, for those media
>> controllers canny enough to sponsor the 17 year old themselves!
and M forever responds:
>I think you are probing far too deep and too sociological for reasons
>for this.
Yes. Doubtless I'm taking the chance to ride one of my own favourite
hobby horses, but the point remains that our current nursery school
society gets more worked up about these pushed prodigies than previous
generations ever did. At 17 many people know precisely who they are and
what they are about, which needn't exclude major changes of tack later
on in life.
I would also take issue when you say that he (or anyone else of that
age, or indeed any other) might, in your words be "too full of himself".
I'd be much more worried about the masses of 17 year olds who don't
think enough of themselves.
I remember Mr Prior being asked a year or so back by a BBC Radio 4
reporter (so we're talking the "intellectual" channel here) whether he
was missing out on playing football outside with his mates. His reply
was a polite aphorism - "my friends don't play football". No false
demotics about this lad, and good for him.
In 2010 England it takes a lot of courage for a 15-or-so to resist peer
group and commercial pressures and stay true to his own cultural lights.
I think we should give Mr Prior every encouragement, rather than join in
the sniping.
Christopher Webber
>Apparently, his parents do a lot of behind-the-scenes string pulling
>and apparently, and they buy him gigs. Good for him.
Lucky for him, indeed. Of course, this is a very common scenario in most
branches of the performing arts. The more money and energy your parents
are willing to plough into your nascent career, the better.
Although no prodigy, John Eliot Gardiner was similarly blessed: his
plutocratic family sponsored an extended apprenticeship for him with the
BBC Northern Symphony Orchestra, which meant that we juvenile Mancunians
were faced with the occasional pleasures of his Elgar, amongst other
joys.
He was no great shakes at that time; but he was quite good enough to
ride the sneers, to learn, and to make the most of this bought
experience.
I don't doubt Mr Prior is well capable of doing the same, provided his
somewhat passionate matron doesn't get carried away with the fire of her
own ambitions. She would be the worry here, I think.
I notice that he includes at least one excellent through-written
zarzuela, Penella's "Don Gil de Alcala", on his repertoire list. It's
beautifully scored for strings and harp alone, and I do hope that he
introduces the Seattle orchestra to that, as well as lots of Rimsky.
[Anyone - even Gergiev! - who knows and likes "Kaschei the Immortal" is
worth persevering with in my book.]
SG
From Mr. Prior's website, his repertoire:
Alexander Prior
Conducting Repertoire
Opera, Operetta & Ballet
Adams – Nixon In China, The Death of Klinghoffer
Bartok - “Duke Bluebeard's Castle” “The Miraculous Mandarin”
Copland – Appalachian Spring, Rodeo, Billy the Kid, The Tender Land
Debussy - “Pelleas et Melisande”
Janaèek – “Jenùfa.”, “Katya Kabanova”, “The Cunning Little Vixen”,
“From The House Of the Dead”
Mussorgsky - “Boris Godunov”, “Khovanshina”.
Nielsen – “Saul og David”, “Maskarade”
Purcell - “Dido and Aeneas”.
Ravel - “Daphnis et Chloe”.
Rimsky-Korsakov – “The Pskov Maiden”, “The Snow Maiden” “The Tsar's
Bride” “Sadko” “The Immortal Kastchei” “The tale of Tsar Saltan” “The
tale of the invisible city of Kitezh”
Rossini – “The Barber of Seville”
Sibelius - “The Maiden in the Tower”.
Spanish Zarzuela - "Don Gil del Alcala" - Manuel Penella.
Strauss “Salome”, “Elektra” “Der Rosenkavalier” “Ariadne auf Naxos”
“Die Frau Ohne Schatten”
Tchaikovsky - “Eugin Onegin”, “Iolanta”, “The Queen of Spades”,
“The Nutcracker”, “ Swan Lake”.
Verdi - “La Traviata”.
Wagner - “Tannhäuser”, “Lohengrin” “Tristan und Isolde”, “Das ring der
Nibelungen”, “Parsifal”
Alexander Prior - “The Desert or The Golden Fish ” - an opera in 2
acts , “Mowgli” – a ballet in 2 acts
Symphonic
Adams – Harmonium, Shaker Loops, Harmonielehre, The Chairman Dances,
Tromba Lontana, Short Ride in a Fast Machine, Violin Concerto, Chamber
Symphony
Bartok – Concerto for Orchestra, Music for Strings Percussion and
Celesta, Piano Cocnertos 1-3
Beethoven – Symphonies, Piano concertos, Violin Concerto, Overtures.
Bizet L'Arlesienne Suite, Bizet/Sarasate Carmen Suite
Brahms – Symphony No 1,2,3,4, Tragic overture, A German Requiem,
Hungarian Dances
Borodin – Symphony 1-2
Bruch – Violin Concerto.
Bruckner – Symphony No.1-9.
Copland - Appalachian Spring, Fanfare for a common man, 3rd Symphony,
Clarinet Concerto, Orchestral Variations, Billy The Kid Suite, Rodeo
Suite.
Debussy - Prelude a l’apres-midi d’un faune.
Dvoøak - Symphonies 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.Concerto for cello.
Elgar – Concerto for Cello, Concerto for Violin, Enigma Variations
Glazunov – Symphony No. 4, 6
Glier - Symphony No. 3” Ilya Murometz”.
Grieg - Piano Concerto, Holberg Suite, Symphonic Dances, Peer Gynt
Suites.
Haydn – Symphony No 98, 104, Violin Concerto in G major.
Janaèek - Sinfonietta, Taras Bulba, Lachian Dances
Kalinnikov – Symphonies No. 1 and 2, Bylina
Uuno Klami – Kalevala Suite.
Lyadov – 8 Russian Folk songs, The Magic Lake, Kikimora, Baba-Yaga,
From The Apocalypses.
Mahler - Symphonies No. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8. Das lied von der Erde,
Lieder “Blicke Mir Nicht in Die Lieder,Ich Atmet’ Einen Linden Duft,
Ich Bin Der Welt Abhanden Gekommen
Mendelssohn - A Midsummer night’s dream, Hebrides
Overture.Symphonies, Violin concerto. Piano concerto No2
Mozart - Divertissemento in D, Overture to “The Magic Flute” and
“Don Giovanni”, Symphonies
Myaskovsky – Symphony No.21
Carl Nielsen - Saga-drøm, Helios Overture, Symphonies 3-6, Violin
Concerto, Aladdin, Clarinet Concerto, Flute Concerto.
Prokofiev - Symphonies 1-7, Alexander Nevsky, Romeo and Juliet
suites, Violin concertos, Piano concertos No.1 and No.2.
Rachmaninov – Symphonies No. 1,2, 3, The Isle of the Dead,
Piano Concertos 1, 2, 3, 4. Rhapsody on a
theme by Paganini,
Symphonic dances.
Rimsky-Korsakov – Scheherazade, Sadko – Symphonic poem, Serbian
fanstasy.
Easter Festival Overture.
Saint Saens – Rondo Capriccioso
Schoenberg - Verklärte Nacht, Pelleas and Melisande.
Schostakovitch – Symphonies No.1, No.4 No.5, No.6, No.7, No.8, No.10.
Violin Concertos .
Schubert – Symphony No.4
Sibelius – Symphony “Kulervo”, Symphony No 1,2,3,5,6,7
En Saga, Vårsång, Leminkäinen suite, Kuolema, Tulen Synty, Oma maa,
Har du mod, Finlandia, Karelia Suite, Luonnotar, Pohjola's Daughter,
Violin concerto.
Stravinsky Fire Bird Suite - National Symphony Orchestra, Barbican,
3.2009
The Soldier’s Tale – Seattle Symphony 27.10.2009
Tchaikovsky – Symphonies No. 1,2,3,5,6, Manfred, 1812 Overture, Romeo
and Julliet, Violin Concerto, Piano concerto No.1, String Serenade,
Petzzo Capricioso
Verdi - Requiem.
Wagner – Overtures, Siegfried Idyll
Stravinsky – The Fire Bird, The Rite of Spring, Petrushka, Dombarton
Oaks
The Soldiers’ Tale
Vaughan-Williams – Symphonies 1-5, The Lark Ascending, Norfolk
Rhapsody, Fantasy on a theme of Thomas Tallis
Sviridov – Kursk songs, The Snow Storm, Small Tryptich, Time Forward
Alexander Prior - Concerto for 2 Violins, Cello, Piano and Orchestra
“Velesslavitsa”, Violin Concerto, Piano Concertos No. 1 and 2, String
Symphony No 1
No. 2 “Northern” No.3, No. 4 “Gogol” and all other works
----------------------
One notices Mr. Prior's modesty in knowing his limits. He doesn't
conduct yet Mahler's Ninth Symphony.
Sorry for previously misspelling his name as "Priors".
regards,
SG
OW
>
> ----------------------
>
> One notices Mr. Prior's modesty in knowing his limits. He doesn't
> conduct yet Mahler's Ninth Symphony.
>
But he does have the cheek to do Das Lied, not mention Bruckner 9. And
somehow it's a bit strange to imagine a 17-year-old conducting the
Tchaikovsky Pathetique.
I like his taste, though. I would think hearing him conduct
Stravinsky's Rite would be the real acid test.
SG
> > ----------------------
>
> > One notices Mr. Prior's modesty in knowing his limits. He doesn't
> > conduct yet Mahler's Ninth Symphony.
>
> But he does have the cheek to do Das Lied, not mention Bruckner 9. And
> somehow it's a bit strange to imagine a 17-year-old conducting the
> Tchaikovsky Pathetique.
Hi Owen, I'm afraid I've recently became too subtle (or too obscure,
probably the latter, rather), even for people of your intelligence.
Sorry.
regards,
SG
Thornhill
> Seattle goes even younger than the Los Angelos Phil :
>
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/6975284/British-m...
>
> Priors: "To me, music is about the search for beauty through
> suffering, but a lot of the European establishments do not do that.
> They are preoccupied with looking arty-farty and not enjoying the
> music they are making."
>
> Not sure how one looks "arty-farty" , but sounds like fun.
>
> The Telegraph crtitic: " But I think what really bothers the old guard
> is the thought that he might be a rip-roaring success. "
>
> Probably fortunately, I cant recall much of what I was doing at 17;
> but it was also 1965. Weren't Korngold and Mozart conducting at 17 ?
>
> Regards, Rugby
I don't get what the big deal is. Isn't Assistant Conductor an
apprenticeship? You get to watch the rehearsals, you get a little
rehearsal time, conduct the educational concerts, and if there is an
act of god -- the regular conductor gets sick 10 minutes before the
curtain call -- maybe you get to conduct a subscription concert.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
typed in news:98527270-34e4-4d8a-9329-
3af89d...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
>
> Terry, fwiw about Lorin I am somewhere in the middle - I think he is a
> terrific professional, intelligent, secure, superb baton technique. I
> also feel he "dried up" in recent decades - he seems literally bored
> and it shows in the music.
>
> Among conductorial Wunderkinds, Roberto Benzi should be mentioned as
> well. A talented guy, actually, still alive if I believe.
>
> My problem with Priors is that I don't find him very good (so far).
>
> To make clear it's not just the age involved, I also don't understand
> how Rotterdam could go from Gergiev to N�zet-S�guin, who's not THAT
> young, and is better than Mr. Priors, but arguably worse than Dudamel.
> Excxessive aerobics for the less educated music lovers do not a
> conductor make.
>
> Whatever one may say about the younger or the older Maazel, in front
> of an orchestra he was and is completely professional.
Three of his recordings are my "references":
Prokofiev "Romeo and Juliet"
Tchaikovsky "Manfred" (in the Cleveland Orchestra 75th anniversary box)
Zemlinsky Lyrische Symphonie (which DGG really ought to reissue!)
M forever
It's more an internship than an apprenticeship. You are supposed to
already come equipped with the tools of your craft, and put them to
use supporting the conductor, maybe get a few chances to conduct or
even a "big break".
But first you have to actually learn the craft. A professional
orchestra is not there for young talents to practice on.
M forever
Not really. Most good professional orchestras are so well trained
these days, they can somehow get through almost anything more or less
on autopilot, which doesn't mean it's a musically good performance
though. In a way, these "blockbusters" make it easier for a conductor
to hide his shortcomings and do his choreography while the orchestra
just runs through the piece. Pieces which require a lot of flexible
shaping of musical lines and a lot of fine touches are more telling.
Not that the Rite is not a piece in which you can also apply a lot of
fine touches and which benefits from a flexible approach, especially
in the lyrical sections. But it also spools off fairly well by itself
in all the fast, rhythmically complex passages which a lot of people
think really need the conductor. In reality, all that goes so fast, if
the players don't know how it goes, the conductor can't really help
them much by gesturing around dramatically.
SG
Let's also remember Mr. Prior is barely 17. By the age of 18, he will
surely become the most outstanding disciple of that unsung-enough
conductor of all trades, René Köhler. . .
regards,
SG ( :
PS Christopher, I realize I shouldn't have been so understated, even
for the over-intelligent British readers (-:... so here we go, I
highly respect your opinions in principle but, really, this Prior -
genius/repertoire/interviews/philosophy/pretensions-wise is as close
to a practical joke I have ever seen in the classical music field
since the Hatto affair (which, humbly and admittedly, I haven't been
able to "sniff" myself).
One wonders whether Gustavo Dudamel didn't invent Prior in order to
suddenly look credible, by comparison... ( :
Christopher Webber
>I highly respect your opinions in principle but, really, this Prior -
>genius/repertoire/interviews/philosophy/pretensions-wise is as close to
>a practical joke I have ever seen in the classical music field since
>the Hatto affair
Oddly enough, I sensed a whiff of the Hatto brimstone myself, but mainly
due to the mother's rather vulgar antiquated ambitions rather from the
boy himself. I wish him luck, but fear for him.
AN
Did you watch the TV series and have you heard the recording of his
music?
Christopher Webber
>But he does have the cheek to do Das Lied, not mention Bruckner 9. And
>somehow it's a bit strange to imagine a 17-year-old conducting the
>Tchaikovsky Pathetique.
Why so? The powerful all-or-nothing psychology of Tchaikovsky's
Pathetique seems to me at least precisely that of a sensitive
17-year-old schoolboy. That Little Unpleasantness shortly after its
premiere shouldn't blind us to its emotional character.
Certainly the piece moved me when I was 17 just as deeply as it does now
(and I *was* moved by it recently on hearing Pletniev's DG recording).
The alluring romance of death and dissolution we get in Tchaikovsky's
6th reflects the emotional reaction of the young to life's trials,
rather than mirroring how older people faced with the physical realities
of these ghastly things might react - go to Holst's "Saturn" for that.
I'd say something of the kind applied to "Das Lied von der Erde" too. At
17 I felt I understood the piece completely. Now its ambiguities confuse
and intrigue me. But "cheek" is not needed to conduct a work which says
something to people of all ages. Only empathy and expertise, which
latter Mr Prior may or may not yet possess.
Kerrison
>
> - Show quoted text -
There's quite a bit of his stuff on You Tube, as per this clip from
his 4th Symphony.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re5KjxLaNhs
I find it hard to believe that he can have written so much stuff (see
the compositions list on his website) while studying dozens of other
composers' operas and symphonies (ditto the repertoire list) yet still
be only 17 .. Still, he can hardly have had his music ghost-written
for him by some unemployed composer of block-buster movies soundtracks
(which is what it all sounds like) as sooner or later someone would
spill the beans .. and then we'd have Priorgate.
At the start of this thread were quotes from the Telegraph .. now read
what the Guardian had to say about his "overblown ideas" and "priggish
bumptiousness"!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/tomserviceblog/2009/jun/16/alex-prior-composer-classical-music
Of course, in 50 years time he could have been hailed as another
Toscanini or Furtwangler, or another Sibelius or Shostakovich, but I
guess none of us will be around to find out.
Rugby
> By the age of 18, he will
> surely become the most outstanding disciple of that unsung-enough
> conductor of all trades, René Köhler. . .
I missed most of the Hatto years. Was Rene Kohler distantly related to
the Wisconsin family company that makes toilets ?
Rugby
Thornhill
An an internship is a longterm version of an apprenticeship -- at an
internship you get to fetch coffee for free all summer in return for
getting to observe the masters in action.
Anyway, it would be highly unusual for him to get to do much public
conducting in the position. When a conductor gets sick at the last
moment, they either find someone else or tap the associate conductor.
I was reading through the duties of assistant conductors on various
orchestra websites, and they all seem to pretty much limit it to
conducting the educational concerts.
What better way to learn the craft than by getting a lot of time to
observe conductors run rehearsals, and then get a few minutes in front
of the orchestra (which all tightly cap how much time they rehearse)?
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in news:65cae83f-55e9-4df3-b0fb-
5b7a15...@e16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> On Jan 20, 1:22�am, SG <sgg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> By the age of 18, he will surely become the most outstanding disciple of
>> that unsung-enough conductor of all trades, Ren� K�hler. . .
>
> I missed most of the Hatto years. Was Rene Kohler distantly related to
> the Wisconsin family company that makes toilets ?
I made that speculation here, which was ultimately reflected in the TV
programme about Barrington-Crook. I felt flushed with pride.
M forever
Not in the world of music. There, you have to come very well equipped
and basically ready for action. No coffee making. The internships are
meant to take someone who has most of the training needed and some
experience, and to help them transition into the realities of
professional music making.
> Anyway, it would be highly unusual for him to get to do much public
> conducting in the position. When a conductor gets sick at the last
> moment, they either find someone else or tap the associate conductor.
> I was reading through the duties of assistant conductors on various
> orchestra websites, and they all seem to pretty much limit it to
> conducting the educational concerts.
>
> What better way to learn the craft than by getting a lot of time to
> observe conductors run rehearsals, and then get a few minutes in front
> of the orchestra (which all tightly cap how much time they rehearse)?
Professional orchestra are not there for young geniuses to practice.
Yes, even the most experienced conductor in theory keeps, or should
keep, learning and refining his skills, but there has to be a very
solid basis there first for the young talent before he/she gets to
waive his/her arms around in front of an orchestra. There are better
places to acquire that basis, the music academy, working with student/
amateur orchestras, summer classes etc. And no matter how talented
someone is, how good his ears are, his memory and his motor skills,
there is just way more that needs to be studied and learned in terms
of musical theory, analysis, history, composition, forms,
orchestration etcetcetcetcetcetc than even the most talented 17-year
old could ever have done. Plus a lot of knowledge comes just with
experience, years of working in musical environments, working with and
observing orchestras, learning about the instruments, their
challenges, typical problems in repertoire pieces etcetcetcetc.
SG
> Oddly enough, I sensed a whiff of the Hatto brimstone myself, but mainly
> due to the mother's rather vulgar antiquated ambitions rather from the
> boy himself. I wish him luck, but fear for him.
Chris, thanks for your nice answer. I don't fear much for him...
unless there are deeper-seated problems (which can exist in any of us
human beings) that are not obvious yet. He *seems* a strong, secure
guy. On the contrary, imponderables apart, I am sure he will make
*some* kind of career and/or lots of money, which is fine. There are
lots of MUCH worse people out there doing just that.
When I mentioned the Hatto thing, btw, I didn't think of out and out
charlatanry. (Well, not based on what we know anyway.) It is obvious
that in some hard-to-define ways this young man *is* special. Very
smart for one thing. I am sure he has a quite high, clearly much above-
average IQ. Even doing somewhat badly everything he is doing requires
a non-common intelligence, sense of purpose, however well-guided or
misguided, willpower, and sheer hard - if quantity-focused - work. At
the same time, there is something slightly creepy and unaware-of-self
about a huge, overpowering ambition of creating a pedestal for oneself
which is simply not warranted by the level of talent involved (all
that precedes and follows imho imho imho etc.). As I said, I've heard
almost everything put up on the net, and I couldn't find one really
good (we are not talking Mozart-good here, just really good) thing he
would have done. One single one. It also seems that he has an uncommon
imitative talent without creativity... which makes him say things that
he thinks make him look a certain way - you know, profound or
something -, make gestures he saw others doing and he thought they
looked cool, put together the most trashy compositional clichés out
there in pompous "compositions," so on and so forth.
The problem is not Mr. Prior. In many ways it would be positive if
more kids would be obsessed with "grand things" rather than the
popular culture of today. The problem is, in a manner of speaking, us,
I mean our society's willingness to take such (pseudo-)phenomena
seriously and get excited about them, on the basis of juvenile
exceptionalism alone, with little if any substance.
regards,
SG
Bob Lombard
> there in pompous "compositions," so on and so forth.
>
> The problem is not Mr. Prior. In many ways it would be positive if
> more kids would be obsessed with "grand things" rather than the
> popular culture of today. The problem is, in a manner of speaking, us,
> I mean our society's willingness to take such (pseudo-)phenomena
> seriously and get excited about them, on the basis of juvenile
> exceptionalism alone, with little if any substance.
>
> regards,
> SG
>
A cogent, thoughtful post, Samir - as usual when politics isn't the
subject. I wonder though, how intelligent a 17 year-old must be to
recognize that his ego has overpowered his intellect. Wasn't Perahia
about that age when he retreated from the public eye, in order to
study in depth the art of making music on the piano?
bl
--
Music, a few books, a few movies
LombardMusic
http://www.amazon.com/shops/A3NRY9P3TNNXNA
SG
wrote:
> A cogent, thoughtful post, Samir - as usual when politics isn't the
> subject.
I have this fleeting feeling that you are trying to tell me something
(-:.
regards,
SG
El Klauso
just settle back and play with his XBox. Although based upon a few
Youtube exposures he seems a bit literal to me - And as an LA resident
I may be a victim of Dudamel poisoning - I say, more power to him, and
if he manages to draw a few more non-gray heads into the Seattle
concert hall, so much the better.
SG
"I wonder though, how intelligent a 17 year-old must be to
recognize that his ego has overpowered his intellect."
If I may emit a(n assumed) truism, one more of them I mean, intellect
has limits when it comes to governing temperament, character, and
vocation (or lack of it).
"Wasn't Perahia
about that age when he retreated from the public eye, in order to
study in depth the art of making music on the piano?"
Moriz Rosenthal had a fantastic career as a Wunderkind, he was a mere
fourteen when studying intensively with Liszt in Weimar, then being
appointed Court Pianist by the Romanian Queen (no rmcr-specific
innuendos here, kindly, I am really speaking about the Queen Elisabeth
of Romania)... he felt his playing lacked depth, retired from stage
for a good couple of years, practiced in solitude, got a degree in
philosophy at the University of Vienna, before returning to stage for
one of the longest and most glorious careers any pianist ever had.
Well, they were old-fashioned those people, what did they know?
regards
SG
Dontait...@aol.com
> Seattle goes even younger than the Los Angelos Phil :
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/6968188/Inexp...
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/6975284/British-m...
>
> Priors: "To me, music is about the search for beauty through
> suffering, but a lot of the European establishments do not do that.
> They are preoccupied with looking arty-farty and not enjoying the
> music they are making."
>
> Not sure how one looks "arty-farty" , but sounds like fun.
>
> The Telegraph crtitic: " But I think what really bothers the old guard
> is the thought that he might be a rip-roaring success. "
>
> Probably fortunately, I cant recall much of what I was doing at 17;
> but it was also 1965. Weren't Korngold and Mozart conducting at 17 ?
They might have been; both were stupendous genius prodigies. Bruno
Walter conducted his first opera at 17 (he wrote in his autobiography
that it went all right). Toscanini first conducted at 19 in Buenos
Aires, filling in unexpectedly for a conductor while a 'cellist in a
touring opera company and evidently doing a brilliant job.
Don Tait
Matthew�B.�Tepper
typed in news:cb05345c-2a0d-42bf-b077-
cfe9d3...@k35g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
> Moriz Rosenthal had a fantastic career as a Wunderkind, he was a mere
> fourteen when studying intensively with Liszt in Weimar, then being
> appointed Court Pianist by the Romanian Queen (no rmcr-specific innuendos
> here, kindly, I am really speaking about the Queen Elisabeth of
> Romania)... he felt his playing lacked depth, retired from stage for a
> good couple of years, practiced in solitude, got a degree in philosophy
> at the University of Vienna, before returning to stage for one of the
> longest and most glorious careers any pianist ever had. Well, they were
> old-fashioned those people, what did they know?
But they didn't have leeches standing to make a fortune off of them, at least
not compared to today's PR types and Mousse-haired Marketing Morons.
M forever
Yes, but both conducting debuts were with very standard repertoire
pieces in very experienced, well oiled opera companies, so while both,
as was to be seen later, were indeed outstanding talents and their
respective debuts came at fairly early ages, they both operated in a
highly integrated environment in which they had been fully immersed
from an early age on. Working in the daily grind of such opera
companies, be it in the orchestra or as a repetiteur and assistant
conductor, is far more intense, and effective schooling than
practicing dramatic poses in front of the mirror with the stereo
running. And it was to be another 10 years before Toscanini actually
got to conduct symphonic concerts. Similarly, Mahler, who Walter met
soon after his debut, did not take him to Vienna but advised him to
gain experience in provincial opera houses first, and only gave him a
job in Vienna several years later after he had worked his way through
several opera houses. And those were very hard daily grind jobs, not
conducting classes in nice summer resorts and choreography sessions in
front of the mirror.
Kerrison
>
> - Show quoted text -
M forever is quite right about the "dramatic poses" ... In this You
Tube clip, where the camera never leaves AP, so that you don't know if
the players even look up from their music, he seems to be "acting" the
part of a Big Maestro, rather than actually conducting a musical
performance. I thought we'd seen the last of ghastly facial grimacing
with Simon Rattle, but evidently I was mistaken. On the other hand, SR
did get the Berlin Phil so who knows what will happen with this guy.
Christopher Webber
>The problem is not Mr. Prior. In many ways it would be positive if more
>kids would be obsessed with "grand things" rather than the popular
>culture of today. The problem is, in a manner of speaking, us, I mean
>our society's willingness to take such (pseudo-)phenomena seriously and
>get excited about them, on the basis of juvenile exceptionalism alone,
>with little if any substance.
Precisely put: and what I hinted at by my "Hatto brimstone" phrase. The
common link is the way both artists were publicised. I'm talking, as you
realised, not about the later charlatanry, but about the way the real
Joyce Hatto, the genuine aspiring talent of the 1950's and 60's, was
packaged in a cliched, old-fashioned, 19th century "master pianist" box.
That was, I believe, largely what put people "in the business" off her.
Her style became a sad burlesque of that "master pianism"; and this
combined with growing lack of confidence eventually did for her career.
Talent she had. Hard-working she was. Good advice and objectivity she
fatally lacked.
Mr Prior's mother seems to be marketing her son's talent in a strikingly
similar, cliched way. There is something curiously 1940's B-Movie about
the way he's being sold as a "master conductor-composer", and this feeds
those problematic media cliches you bring up. His website is amateurish,
too.
Now I don't suppose "society" (in any sense!) gives two hoots about
whether the fellow's talented or not, or about how modern his music is;
but people are savvy enough to spot the fact that he's somehow weirdly
out of his time. Mother should be self-denying enough to leave her son,
and his career, to the professionals.
Rugby
wrote:
> SG <sgg...@gmail.com> writes:
Mother should be self-denying enough to leave her son,
> and his career, to the professionals.
> --
Shades of Rilda Bee ?
Rugby
Rugby
He's mellowing with age :
"Whether the Seattle-ites understand what they’ve let themselves in
for remains to be seen, because a conversation with Prior is a bit
like listening to someone speed-reading Wikipedia aloud. He roves with
satellite vision over Russian and Native American folklore, the
interrelationships of Germanic and Slavic languages, the history of
minimalism in music, the future of contemporary classical music.
Is there anything he doesn’t know, for heaven’s sake? “Um, probably.
I’m quite sure there is. I try to learn something new every day. I’ve
learned to be more forgiving of ignorance, which I wasn’t when I was
11.
“Now I understand, of course, that people are ignorant, but I like
talking and teaching people about things.”
www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/7037695/Alex-Prior-Im-young-so-what.html
Ed Romans
> he seems to be "acting" the
> part of a Big Maestro, rather than actually conducting a musical
> performance.
On what specifically do you base this comment (with regard to this
specific clip)?
Just curious
Ed
M forever
He is basically just conducting along with a piece that runs mostly by
itself once the basic tempo is set. The conductor can apply subtle (or
not so subtle) shifts of tempo and bring out musical details, shape
phrases more specifically, but none of that happens. What you see here
is just exaggerated gesturing which doesn't register on the orchestra.
It's not even that it's just "enthusiastic" and "youthful" and maybe a
little over the top. It's just an empty show, he is headbanging to
what the orchestra plays. Particularly the "espressivo!!!" left hand
gesture he keeps making in lots of places looks completely artificial
the way he does that (I guess he has seen a few Giulini videos). One
could also break this down even more specifically, but I think this is
already enough.
I can totally picture a very young conductor who really has some
specific ideas about the music and who really tries to get those
across to the orchestra. He may not yet know all the "tricks" and he
may not yet have all the experience, he may be overly enthusiastic -
meaning that he can't communicate his enthusiasm, not that being
enthusiastic is a problem! - but he may try really hard - but that's
not what *this* looks like at all.
*This* is really just a lot of very silly posing.
Dontait...@aol.com
> > � They might have been; both were stupendous genius prodigies. Bruno
> > Walter conducted his first opera �at 17 (he wrote in his autobiography
> > that it went all right). Toscanini first conducted at 19 in Buenos
> > Aires, filling in unexpectedly for a conductor while a 'cellist in a
> > touring opera company and evidently doing a brilliant job.
>
> Yes, but both conducting debuts were with very standard repertoire
> pieces in very experienced, well oiled opera companies, so while both,
> as was to be seen later, were indeed outstanding talents and their
> respective debuts came at fairly early ages, they both operated in a
> highly integrated environment in which they had been fully immersed
> from an early age on. Working in the daily grind of such opera
> companies, be it in the orchestra or as a repetiteur and assistant
> conductor, is far more intense, and effective schooling than
> practicing dramatic poses in front of the mirror with the stereo
> running. And it was to be another 10 years before Toscanini actually
> got to conduct symphonic concerts. Similarly, Mahler, who Walter met
> soon after his debut, did not take him to Vienna but advised him to
> gain experience in provincial opera houses first, and only gave him a
> job in Vienna several years later after he had worked his way through
> several opera houses. And those were very hard daily grind jobs, not
> conducting classes in nice summer resorts and choreography sessions in
> front of the mirror.
Toscanini's conducting debut didn't happen in a "very experienced,
well-oiled" opera company at all. It was with an ad-hoc company that
had been cobbled together in Italy in 1885 by an impresario named
Claudio Rossi to tour Brazil the following spring. Toscanini was
engaged as principal 'cellist and assistant chorus master, at 18.
After a while in Brazil the entire enterprise fell apart because of
internal dissensions about the conductor, a Brazilian named Miguez
whom everyone in the company (according to Harvey Sachs in his
Toscanini biography) regarded as incompetent. After both Miguez and
his announced substitute were howled away by the audience in Rio in
1886, Toscanini was encouraged by his fellow musicians to save the
evening by conducting Aida, and he did. He'd never conducted before
aside from a couple of student things at the conservatory.
Symphonic concerts weren't a regular feature of Italian musical life
in the 1890s, of course. Toscanini might have been happy to be able to
finally conduct some: was it 1896, in Turin? I seem to recall that one
of the things he conducted was the Italian premiere of the suite from
Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker.
Bruno Walter began his career at 17 at the opera in Cologne, where
he was a coach and was eventually invited to make his debut conducting
Lortzing's Der Waffenschmied. (Perhaps regular repertoire in those
days.) He met Mahler not in Vienna but when he (Walter) secured a
contract with the Hamburg Stadttheater, where Mahler was the director.
He worked with Mahler there. While Mahler did indeed advise Walter to
get more experience in smaller opera houses, Walter wrote in his
autobiography that not long after Mahler went to Vienna in 1897, he
asked Walter to join him there. Walter wrote that he felt he did need
more experience on his own and turned Mahler down. Walter wrote that
that was the only serious breach in their relationship, but that
Mahler got over it. After subsequent posts in Riga and Berlin, Walter
did go to Vienna to be with Mahler.
Don Tait
M forever
Maybe, but what I meant was that even though the opera company may
have been "ad hoc", they played repertoire that all Italian musicians
knew extremely well and played *all the time*. So maybe "well oiled"
is not a good expression, but I think you know what I mean. As you
pointed out, there were relatively few symphony concerts in Italian
music life. Everything happened in the opera, and repertoire staples
like "Aida" were operas that probably all of the singers and musicians
knew extremely well. What probably went along with that was the kind
of sloppiness Toscanini soon become known for fighting against, the
kind of sloppiness that comes from not paying attention to the
composer's exact notation because "we know how this goes". Plus, you
have to take into account that audiences back then - apparently -
accepted much lower standards than we are used to today. So apparently
Toscanini managed to steer everybody through the opera effectively,
but "how good" that was, especially by modern or even just the
standards documented a few decades later, we have no way of knowing.
> Symphonic concerts weren't a regular feature of Italian musical life
> in the 1890s, of course. Toscanini might have been happy to be able to
> finally conduct some: was it 1896, in Turin? I seem to recall that one
> of the things he conducted was the Italian premiere of the suite from
> Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker.
>
> Bruno Walter began his career at 17 at the opera in Cologne, where
> he was a coach and was eventually invited to make his debut conducting
> Lortzing's Der Waffenschmied. (Perhaps regular repertoire in those
> days.) He met Mahler not in Vienna
I did not say he did.
> but when he (Walter) secured a
> contract with the Hamburg Stadttheater, where Mahler was the director.
> He worked with Mahler there. While Mahler did indeed advise Walter to
> get more experience in smaller opera houses, Walter wrote in his
> autobiography that not long after Mahler went to Vienna in 1897, he
> asked Walter to join him there. Walter wrote that he felt he did need
> more experience on his own and turned Mahler down. Walter wrote that
> that was the only serious breach in their relationship, but that
> Mahler got over it. After subsequent posts in Riga and Berlin, Walter
> did go to Vienna to be with Mahler.
Maybe, maybe not. I would take anything that Walter writes with a huge
lump of salt. I never got very far in his autobiography because I had
to throw up around p.20 or so. What a horrible, self-celebrating pile
of highly stylized blabla that book is. I don't know how much that
comes across in the English version, but in German it's almost
unreadable because of the highly artificial (not artistic), heavily
mannered writing style, kind of like pseudo-Thomas Mann. I wonder if
he wrote that in German or English and whether it was translated back.
In any case, he must have supervised the German version because nobody
would translate a book into German in that style (I hope).
In any case, none of the above changes anything about what my basic
point was: that these men came from and learned their craft in highly
immersed environments, in the daily grind of professional opera house
which cranked out one performance after another, in circumstances
which were often less ideal, and probably with forces which were much
less effective than modern orchestras are. So there is a huge
difference between the way they learned their crafts and the situation
a young "genius" is in when he gets to flap around his arms in front
of a highly trained symphony orchestra.
M forever
That now totally reminds me of someone I knew when I was a teenager in
Berlin, a guy who was also very talented and who came across a lot
like this. He had perfect pitch, was a very talented pianist, had high
ambitions of becoming a conductor and basically also had a similarly
high opinion of himself and his mission to teach the world.
He was convinced that he was destined to become a great, maybe one of
the very greatest conductors ( partially because he was actually
Ferenc Fricsay's grandson).
Now that that reminded me of him, I realize that I have never heard
from him again since I last met him in Berlin a quarter of a century
or so ago. Googling his name didn't get any results either. So I guess
he did not become one of the world's greatest conductors.