Maestro Muti (recent interview)

[aesthete8]

http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584

[Herman]

Le vendredi 5 octobre 2012 10:48:40 UTC+2, aesthete8 a écrit :
> http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584

His name is Riccardo Muti

[Oscar]

On Friday, October 5, 2012 2:40:53 AM, Herman wrote:
>
> His name is Riccardo Muti

What's your name, Herr Herman?

[Polluter Politika]

On Oct 5, 4:48 am, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584

Thank you for pointing me to this interview.

[aesthete8]

On Oct 5, 5:35 am, Polluter Politika <polluterpolit...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Oct 5, 4:48 am, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584
>
> Thank you for pointing me to this interview.

Did you have any reactions to it?:

[Steve de Mena]

I don't recall reading or seeing any interviews with him before. He
wasn't as serious and/or arrogant as maybe I was expecting.

Thanks for sharing the URL.

Steve

[Norman Schwartz]

In Charlie Rose's interview with Gergiev he came off the same way.

> Steve

[Kerrison]

On Oct 7, 5:55 pm, "Norman Schwartz" <n...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Steve de Mena wrote:
> > On 10/6/12 3:59 PM, aesthete8 wrote:
> >> On Oct 5, 5:35 am, Polluter Politika <polluterpolit...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>> On Oct 5, 4:48 am, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584
>
> >>> Thank you for pointing me to this interview.
>
> >> Did you have any reactions to it?:
>
> > I don't recall reading or seeing any interviews with him before. He
> > wasn't as serious and/or arrogant as maybe I was expecting.
>
> > Thanks for sharing the URL.
>

There's a really wonderful performance of Elgar's "In the South" with
Muti and the Philadelphians on You Tube, under which someone has asked
if he would also conduct the "Enigma Variations" or the two
symphonies. I doubt if he ever has or will but it does seem strange
that although the "Enigma" has had quite a few American recordings,
starting with Toscanini and the NBC, none of the great US orchestras
have ever recorded Elgar's 1st or 2nd Symphonies. If only Muti and the
Philly had done either of them as superbly as this "In the South" then
other great US orchestras might well have followed suit ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ZKmVHfgac

[Polluter Politika]

On Saturday, October 6, 2012 6:59:18 PM UTC-4, aesthete8 wrote:
> On Oct 5, 5:35 am, Polluter Politika <polluterpolit...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Oct 5, 4:48 am, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584 > > Thank you for pointing me to this interview. Did you have any reactions to it?:

Yes, several. I've always admired Muti's work beginning with the spedtacular Prokfiev "Ivan teh Terrible" LPs which were replaced when the CD version appeared.
Ros, however, was not quite up to the task. when Muti declared the CSo as being one of the best orchestras in the world with the VPO and the BPO, Charlie Rose asked if the NYPO was in tta category. Muti politely refused to place the NYPO in that category.

[Jerry]

Agreed that the Enigma Variations get more exposure
than the 1st or 2nd, but the Zinman/ Baltimore
Elgar 1st on Telarc is really excellent.

That one (along with the Solti on Decca) are the two
that I turn to most often.

My problem with Elgar (note that I acknowledge it
as mine and not his) is that I find the 1st
a deeply satisfying listening experience
from start to finish and the 2nd unfathomable.

I so often hear of the Elgar 1 and 2 being lumped
together, I wonder if anyone else sees a strong
differentiation between the two.

Since the topic started with the Muti interview, I
was watching it when it first aired on PBS
and winced when he failed to take the opportunity
Charlie Rose offered to add the NYPhil to
his list of best orchestras.

[Herman]

Le lundi 8 octobre 2012 01:27:24 UTC+2, Jerry a écrit :


>
> Since the topic started with the Muti interview, I
>
> was watching it when it first aired on PBS
>
> and winced when he failed to take the opportunity
>
> Charlie Rose offered to add the NYPhil to
>
> his list of best orchestras.

Well, if it isn't in the RCO / VP / BP league (and that's pretty clearly the case), what can Muti do?

[Dufus]

On Oct 5, 3:48 am, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584

The NYT review of his CSO concerts at Carnegie this week, which I
believe some here attended :

http://tinyurl.com/9rudl7a

[Gerard]

Herman <her...@yahoo.com> typed:
> Le lundi 8 octobre 2012 01:27:24 UTC+2, Jerry a �crit :

>
>
> >
> > Since the topic started with the Muti interview, I
> >
> > was watching it when it first aired on PBS
> >
> > and winced when he failed to take the opportunity
> >
> > Charlie Rose offered to add the NYPhil to
> >
> > his list of best orchestras.
>
> Well, if it isn't in the RCO / VP / BP league (and that's pretty
> clearly the case), what can Muti do?

As he left RCO out of his list, the NYPhil still can be in _that_ league.

[M forever]

Because making a list of " the best" orchestras is rather silly to
begin with, and in any case, the NYP isn't one of " the best"
orchestras, quite simply. I heard them last week in NY. It is a very
good orchestra with many highly professional musicians, but it lacks
the kind of ensemble culture that marks "the best" orchestras,
whatever exactly that may mean. I was very positively impressed by
Alan Gilbert's conducting who led highly nuanced performances of
Prokofieff's 3rd piano concerto and Scheherazade. But it was also very
obvious that the orchestra needed a conductor like him to produce such
nuanced performances. They followed him quite well, but they also
executed what he showed rather than really played the music.

[M forever]

Many of Rose's questions were pretty silly, almost embarrassing
though. "How do you inspire the orchestra?" That led to some pretty
hollow generalized stuff coming from Muti who is obviously not a very
verbal position and much more at ease telling little stories than
talking about that kind of stuff. I am currently reading his
autobiography though which is worth reading and, like the interview,
sheds a somewhat different light on Muti than what he usually comes
across as. Just like in the interview, he says that he cmoes from a
background which was pretty formal and stiff, and that his schooling
was fairly serious and strict, too, so that he regrets he often comes
across as arrogant and aloof when he is really just a little serious
and formal, just a little distanced because that was the way he was
brought up.

[Norman Schwartz]

M forever wrote:
> On Oct 7, 7:27 pm, Jerry <gpgenn...@aol.com> wrote:
>> Agreed that the Enigma Variations get more exposure
>> than the 1st or 2nd, but the Zinman/ Baltimore
>> Elgar 1st on Telarc is really excellent.
>>
>> That one (along with the Solti on Decca) are the two
>> that I turn to most often.
>>
>> My problem with Elgar (note that I acknowledge it
>> as mine and not his) is that I find the 1st
>> a deeply satisfying listening experience
>> from start to finish and the 2nd unfathomable.
>>
>> I so often hear of the Elgar 1 and 2 being lumped
>> together, I wonder if anyone else sees a strong
>> differentiation between the two.
>>
>> Since the topic started with the Muti interview, I
>> was watching it when it first aired on PBS
>> and winced when he failed to take the opportunity
>> Charlie Rose offered to add the NYPhil to
>> his list of best orchestras.
>
> Because making a list of " the best" orchestras is rather silly to
> begin with, and in any case, the NYP isn't one of " the best"
> orchestras, quite simply. I heard them last week in NY. It is a very
> good orchestra with many highly professional musicians, but it lacks
> the kind of ensemble culture that marks "the best" orchestras,

Yeah, a "kind of ensemble culture" uber alles, and which yet again should
attempted being imposed upon two Russians. Perhaps they should draw up a
list of composers whose 'cultures' and works represent degenerate music, and
should be banned.

> whatever exactly that may mean. I was very positively impressed by
> Alan Gilbert's conducting who led highly nuanced performances of
> Prokofieff's 3rd piano concerto and Scheherazade.

Maybe because that very "ensemble culture" was missing.

But it was also very
> obvious that the orchestra needed a conductor like him to produce such
> nuanced performances. They followed him quite well, but they also
> executed what he showed rather than really played the music.

We know what it really takes to play music, 'the kind of ensemble culture
that marks "the best" orchestras', sieg heil!

[Alex Brown]

On 08/10/2012 00:27, Jerry wrote:

> My problem with Elgar (note that I acknowledge it
> as mine and not his) is that I find the 1st
> a deeply satisfying listening experience
> from start to finish and the 2nd unfathomable.

I felt the same at one time (though I reached a stage where I thought
the work quite-pleasant-but-so-what), so I listened to the 2nd a lot
(often just 'in the background' while working). And then one day it
clicked. When this symphony hits, it hits hard ... now, for me, this is
Elgar's greatest work, and indeed one of the finest symphonies of the
last century.


--
- Alex Brown

[Kip Williams]

Norman Schwartz wrote, On 10/9/12 12:36 PM:

> M forever wrote:

>> Because making a list of " the best" orchestras is rather silly to
>> begin with, and in any case, the NYP isn't one of " the best"
>> orchestras, quite simply. I heard them last week in NY. It is a very
>> good orchestra with many highly professional musicians, but it lacks
>> the kind of ensemble culture that marks "the best" orchestras,
>
> Yeah, a "kind of ensemble culture" uber alles, and which yet again should
> attempted being imposed upon two Russians. Perhaps they should draw up a
> list of composers whose 'cultures' and works represent degenerate music, and
> should be banned.

I get it! He's German!

As Johnny Carson said once, "Don Rickles just breaks me up with his joke."


Kip W

[Norman Schwartz]

Watching an orchestra of Americans, composed of about equal numbers of
talented men and women of diverse cultural heritage, such as the NYP, rather
than a group of 'full of themselves' bigoted, 'constipated' looking
German/Austrians, nearly brings tears of joy to my eyes. The NY Phil appear
to enjoy playing and listening to one another, all while having fun.
With results as good as, if not better than those having to this day that
"ensemble culture", of close-minded bigots.


"Kip Williams" <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:NF%cs.11383$vv4....@newsfe02.iad...

[Herman]

Le jeudi 11 octobre 2012 20:03:41 UTC+2, Norman Schwartz a écrit :
> Watching an orchestra of Americans, composed of about equal numbers of
>
> talented men and women of diverse cultural heritage, such as the NYP, rather
>
> than a group of 'full of themselves' bigoted, 'constipated' looking
>
> German/Austrians, nearly brings tears of joy to my eyes. The NY Phil appear
>
> to enjoy playing and listening to one another, all while having fun.
>
> With results as good as, if not better than those having to this day that
>
> "ensemble culture", of close-minded bigots.
>

Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.

Have you ever looked at the Berlin Philharmonic in Abbado's or Rattle's time (i.e. the past 25 years)?

It's easy. Abbado's 2000 Beethoven cycle was filmed for DVD. If you would make the immense effort of parting with your prejudices and watch one of those (they're probably on YT, too), you'd see a great orchestra, most of the musician under age 40, younger than the NYPO, many different nationalities, and they're clearly having fun.

But of course if you enjoy your prejudices so much ("constipated Germans": obesity numbers are, as everyone knows, much higher in the USA than in any other country, but never mind) the music doesn't matter.

[JohnGavin]

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 2:03:41 PM UTC-4, Norman Schwartz wrote:
> Watching an orchestra of Americans, composed of about equal numbers of
>
> talented men and women of diverse cultural heritage, such as the NYP, rather
>
> than a group of 'full of themselves' bigoted, 'constipated' looking
>
> German/Austrians, nearly brings tears of joy to my eyes. The NY Phil appear
>
> to enjoy playing and listening to one another, all while having fun.
>
> With results as good as, if not better than those having to this day that
>
> "ensemble culture", of close-minded bigots.

Bernstein never seemed miserable while conducting the Vienna Philharmonic after his years in New York. Do you think his VIenna performances represented an artistic downturn in his career?

Every culture has its strong points. He might have enjoyed walking the streets of a city at night without the fear of getting mugged too.

[Kip Williams]

Norman Schwartz wrote, On 10/11/12 2:03 PM:

> Watching an orchestra of Americans, composed of about equal numbers of
> talented men and women of diverse cultural heritage, such as the NYP, rather
> than a group of 'full of themselves' bigoted, 'constipated' looking
> German/Austrians, nearly brings tears of joy to my eyes. The NY Phil appear
> to enjoy playing and listening to one another, all while having fun.
> With results as good as, if not better than those having to this day that
> "ensemble culture", of close-minded bigots.

This at least comes somewhat closer to the region of an actual criticism
than "Nazinazinazinazi!" did.

I find that when I write something like that, the first thing to do is
strike all the content-free insults. It was fun to write them, and now
it's time to dump 'em. If there's something left that I can work with, I
proceed from there. If nothing's left, I must not have had anything to say.


Kip W

[Gerard]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> typed:

And then you post it.

[O]

In article <defd6$50773c47$5356543a$35...@cache1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,

Of course. If we really had anything to say here, we should expect to
be paid handsomely for our writing.

-Owen, I'd like 30 pieces of silver for this post please.

[Kip Williams]

O wrote, On 10/11/12 6:18 PM:

> Of course. If we really had anything to say here, we should expect to
> be paid handsomely for our writing.

I wouldn't care if it was handsome or not, as long as the quantity was good.


Kip W

[jrsnfld]

On Oct 11, 3:18 pm, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article <defd6$50773c47$5356543a$3...@cache1.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gerard <ghendr-nospam_ik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> typed:
> > > Norman Schwartz wrote, On 10/11/12 2:03 PM:
> > > > Watching an orchestra of Americans, composed of about equal numbers
> > > > of talented men and women of diverse cultural heritage, such as the
> > > > NYP, rather than a group of  'full of themselves' bigoted,
> > > > 'constipated' looking German/Austrians, nearly brings tears of joy
> > > > to my eyes. The NY Phil appear to enjoy playing and listening to
> > > > one another, all while having fun.
> > > > With results as good as, if not better than those having to this
> > > > day that "ensemble culture", of close-minded bigots.
>
> > > This at least comes somewhat closer to the region of an actual
> > > criticism than "Nazinazinazinazi!" did.
>
> > > I find that when I write something like that, the first thing to do is
> > > strike all the content-free insults. It was fun to write them, and now
> > > it's time to dump 'em. If there's something left that I can work
> > > with, I proceed from there. If nothing's left, I must not have had
> > > anything to say.
>
> > And then you post it.
>
> Of course.  If we really had anything to say here, we should expect to
> be paid handsomely for our writing.

Since when were writers paid according to the quality of their ideas?

--Jeff

[Herman]

Le jeudi 11 octobre 2012 22:44:13 UTC+2, Kip Williams a écrit :

>
> This at least comes somewhat closer to the region of an actual criticism
>
> than "Nazinazinazinazi!" did.
>

"bigoted, constipated German / Austrians" ?

[Kip Williams]

Herman wrote, On 10/11/12 9:39 PM:

Yes. Though it's a heaping helping of content-free sneering, it's still
noticeably more restrained and germane than:

'Yeah, a "kind of ensemble culture" uber alles... Perhaps they should

draw up a list of composers whose 'cultures' and works represent

degenerate music, and should be banned.'


Kip W

[M forever]

What a bizarre idea. Russian orchestras have great ensemble culture,
too. I heard the St.Petersburg Philharmonic just a few months ago - no
American orchestra is even in the same league, especially when it
comes to the string sound and playing culture.

> > whatever exactly that may mean. I was very positively impressed by
> > Alan Gilbert's conducting who led highly nuanced performances of
> > Prokofieff's 3rd piano concerto and Scheherazade.
>
> Maybe because that very "ensemble culture" was missing.

Yes, that's why I said I was impressed by his conducting, even if not
all of it registered with the orchestra. I kept thinking what an even
better performance he could have achieved with a more responsive and
engaged orchestra.

> But it was also very
>
> > obvious that the orchestra needed a conductor like him to produce such
> > nuanced performances. They followed him quite well, but they also
> > executed what he showed rather than really played the music.
>
> We know what it really takes to play music, 'the kind of ensemble culture
> that marks "the best" orchestras', sieg heil!

Another completely bizarre outburst. I wasn't even talking about
German orchestras in particular. European orchestras in general, no
matter if they are from Russia, the Czech Republic, Italy, France,
Scandinavia, the Netherlands, England etcetcetc all have that ensemble
culture which is so sadly lacking in American orchestras.

[M forever]

On Oct 11, 2:03 pm, "Norman Schwartz" <n...@optonline.net> wrote:
> Watching an orchestra of Americans, composed of about equal numbers of
> talented men and women of diverse cultural heritage, such as the NYP, rather
> than a group of  'full of themselves' bigoted, 'constipated' looking
> German/Austrians, nearly brings tears of joy to my eyes. The NY Phil appear
> to enjoy playing and listening to one another, all while having fun.
> With results as good as, if not better than those having to this day that
> "ensemble culture", of close-minded bigots.

Obviously you have no clue what I am actually talking about. You are
carrying a lot of xenophobic baggage and at least borderline racist
baggage with you. That it provokes you to see people from a foreign
country carry on their own cultural heritage is deeply saddening. And
there is nothing "constipated" about the way those orchestras play.
But "constipated" does describe what I witnessed in those two
concerts, people just sitting there stiff like broomsticks and poking
their way through the music. They didn't seem to enjoy playing and
having fun that much, and correspondignly what they produced was just
a routine rendering of the music, with some nuances added by Gilbert
who however had to work very hard to get them there.. That was my
criticism.

I am not as fixated on race and all that as you are, but now that you
mention it, it occurred to me just how very little black people there
are in American orchestras - and black people are after all 12% or so
of the overall population. The people in American orchestras are
almost exclusively white and Asian. They don't have a really diverse
cultural heritage either. Most Americans don't even speak the
languages of their ancestors even when their parents were first
generation immigrants.

Speaking of German orchestras, you must never have heard of the
Berliner Philharmoniker. Now that is a truly diverse and very
international orchestra - and at the same time one which carries on a
very long and deep tradition. Music does transcend cultural boundaries
- except in America where there is no real culture, just a homogenized
and cheapened down sauce of the lowest common denominators.

[Oscar]

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:11:12 PM, M forever wrote:
>
> I am not as fixated on race and all that as you are, but now that you
> mention it, it occurred to me just how very little black people there
> are in American orchestras - and black people are after all 12% or so
> of the overall population.

Well, gee, it could have something to do with the fact that most African-Americans would rather be out there setting one global trend after the next in their own style rather than _sit_ in an orchestra surrounded by a bunch of whiteys playing old music by a bunch of dead whiteys. That said, there are some notable classically-trained black American musicians out there. Quincy Jones comes to mind — golly, he even married a German!

> The people in American orchestras are almost exclusively white and
> Asian. They don't have a really diverse cultural heritage either. Most
> Americans don't even speak the languages of their ancestors even
> when their parents were first generation immigrants.

Really, is that so? Again, I would like to invite you Boyle Heights to speak with some 'personal friends' of mine. Please let me know when to expect you.

> Speaking of German orchestras, you must never have heard of the
> Berliner Philharmoniker. Now that is a truly diverse and very
> international orchestra - and at the same time one which carries on a
> very long and deep tradition. Music does transcend cultural boundaries
> - except in America where there is no real culture, just a homogenized
> and cheapened down sauce of the lowest common denominators.

Yes, the Berlin Philharmonic. And the Vienna Philharmonic? I saw them last year, twice. Great orchestra. All white, almost all male, and very 'exclusive'. Good ol' boys could pick them fiddles!

<< In response to international protests and wide-spread, negative
media coverage, the Vienna Philharmonic nominally ended its policy of
excluding women in 1997. The orchestra allowed its harpist, Anna
Lelkes, who had performed with them for 26 years in an associate
position, to become an official member. Unfortunately, the changes
stopped there. For the next ten years (1997-2006), no further women
were given membership, except for Ms. Lelkes’ replacement, the harpist
Charlotte Balzereit.

By 2007, the Vienna Philharmonic once again faced protest and negative
media because it had reneged on its promise to hire women. To
counter these problems, the orchestra allowed five women to become
members between 2007 and 2011.

• Charlotte Balzereit (harp, 2004)
• Ursula Plaichinger (viola, 2007)
• Isabelle Ballot (first violin, 2008)
• Daniela Ivanova (viola, 2010)
• Olesya Kurylak (first violin, 2011)
• Albena Danailova (concertmaster, 2011)

Even with these additions, the Vienna Philharmonic still has the
lowest ratio of women members in the world – 121 to 6. And not
surprisingly, during the 14 years since it agreed to admit women, it
has hired them at a lower rate than any other orchestra.

The Vienna Philharmonic also functions as the Vienna State Opera
Orchestra. To enter the Philharmonic, musicians must first be hired
by the Vienna State Opera and complete a tenure period which is
usually about three years. Only one member of the Opera Orchestra has
not been given membership in the Philharmonic after completing a
tenure period, the cellist Ursula Wex, who was hired in 2003. For the
last eight years, she has been denied membership in the Vienna
Philharmonic because she took maternity leave while a member of the
State Opera Orchestra.

The Vienna State Opera Orchestra has not hired any new women members
in the last four years, so aside from Ms.Wex whose situation is
unlikely to change, there are currently no further women in the
orchestra who can be tenured into the Philharmonic. (Exceptions might
exist if the Opera Orchesrtra has hired women with contracts beginning
in this season, i.e. September 2011. The State Opera is often a few
months behind in updating its website, which is what I use to monitor
the new hires.) Even if a woman is hired in 2012, she will not be
eligible for membership in the Philharmonic until at least 2015. This
means that for at least the next three years, the rate of increase for
women in the Vienna Philharmonic will be 0%. (And if any women have
been engaged for the beginning of the current season, they would
probably also not be tenured into the Philharmonic until 2015.)

This also means that in the 18 years between 1997 and 2015, the
Philharmonic will have given only six women membership, even though
over half of the orchestra’s personnel will have been replaced during
this period. The Vienna Philharmonic thus lags far behind
international norms. Below is a table showing the total percentages
of women in seven comparable major orchestras, and the increase in the
membership of women during the four years from 2005 to 2009:

Orchestra
% of women
% increase 2005-09

• Gürzenich Orchester (orchestra of the Cologne Opera) 37.50% 9.27%
• New York Philharmonic 48.91% 8.32%
• Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Hamburg 37.21% 7.21%
• Orchester der Deutschen Oper Berlin 27.50% 6.53%
• Chicago Symphony 34.34% 6.46%
• Opera Orchestra of Zurich 45.22% 6.43%
• Concertgebouworkest 35.04% 6.09%

In only four years, the ratio of women in these major orchestras
increased by up to 9%, while the Vienna Philharmonic will have only
increased its membership of women to 4.7% in the 18 years from 1997 to
2015.

In major orchestras, musicians work on average about 30 years before
retirement. In an average sized orchestra, this creates about a 4.3%
yearly turnover for their personnel. (There is a variable margin of
error in this number, since some musicians work longer than 30 years,
and some leave sooner due to deaths or jobs such as professorships.)
The Vienna Philharmonic averages about 130 members, so this comes to
about 5.2 musicians per year that need to be hired as replacements for
retirees. This allows us to reasonably estimate the m/f ratios for
new hires in the Vienna Philharmonic as shown in the table below:

VPO By Year

Est. number of new men hired
New women hired
% of women among new hires

1997-2006 52 1 1.96%
2007-2011 21 5 19.23%
2012-2015 15 0 0%

Even accounting for a large margin of error in the estimates for men
hired, we see radical variations in the ratio of women among new hires
during these three periods. After the Philharmonic agreed to admit
women in 1997, the intense media scrutiny of the orchestra and the
protests against it dropped off considerably. The Vienna Philharmonic
was thus allowed to continue its discrimination and not hire any women
aside from one woman harpist for the next ten years.

In 2007, scrutiny of the Philharmonic increased after I published a
widely read article documenting the continued exclusion of women, and
combined it with a case study about the orchestra’s abuse and firing
of a recently hired woman violinist. To counter the renewed
controversy, the Philharmonic gave membership to five women in the
next five years (2007-2011), including a woman concertmaster. This
raised the ratio of women among new hires during this five year period
to about 19.23% — which approaches international standards for major
orchestras in the German-speaking world. It also raised the overall
membership of women in the Vienna Philharmonic during this five year
period by 0.78% per year which is slightly above the international
standard of 0.71% per year.

The State Opera’s employment of a woman concertmaster, Albena
Danailova, was a media sensation and improved the orchestra’s image.
This is consistent with sociological models which suggest that
isocratic organizations resist change by placing outsiders in key
positions to justify and rationalize the same group’s exclusion in the
rank and file. As expected, protests and media scrutiny were once
again greatly reduced, which allowed the State Opera Orchestra to not
hire any additional women for the next four years (2008-2011).

Since no new women have been hired by the State Opera Orchestra in
four years, there are currently none waiting to be tenured into the
Philharmonic (except Ms. Wex whose status is unlikely to change).
Even if a woman is hired in 2012, she will have to wait at least three
years before becoming a member. The ratio for women among new members
in the Philharmonic will thus reflect the Staatsoper's reduction and
drop to 0% for at least the next three years. >>

[Herman]

I'll take the liberty of providing the URL-credit for Oscar's lengthy quote.

http://www.osborne-conant.org/vpo2011.htm

It's interesting to see that Oscar's quote stops at the point the article moves on the the VPO hiring a new trombone player. The new trombone player comes from Texas.

One could call that a pretty conspicuous break with the VPO's ethnocentric hiring tradition, but the writer manages to frame this in negative terms of prejudice again. The lower brass is supposed to have inferior status in the VPO thinking, because of its associations with oompa folk tunes. Which is how an American manages to sneak in.

This is obviously made up by the writer. You can't build and maintain a world class orchestra while relegating entire sections to an inferior status. Besides, internationally, the VPO brand is to a large degree built on the New Year's Day concert, which is about taking the oompa thing to a sublime level of sophistication.

That being said there's no contest the VPO's hiring so few female members is really absurd, in an age that's overflowing with excellent young female instrumentalists.

Still, as the article shows, the VPO keeps making very expensive American tours, visiting (as noted) campuses of supposedly liberal universities, because Americans are hung up on seeing the orchestra that plays the New Year's Day concert.

Sorry guys. You get what you pay for. You want olde worlde tradition? This is what you get.

Plus it provides a welcome opportunity for protest groups.

There are at least a dozen orchestras in the German - Austrian tradition that could provide an equally thrilling concert experience, but these are not invited. They don't do the televised New Year's Day concert.

[Oscar]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 12:58:34 AM, Herman wrote:
>
> It's interesting to see that Oscar's quote stops at the point the
> article moves on the the VPO hiring a new trombone player. The
> new trombone player comes from Texas.

OMG, a straw-chewing Texan talking like Paul Newman in Hud? Perish the thought. Fricsay hated Houston. I reckon they brought him in for the jokes is all, a bone-blowin' Texan in a ten gallon hat.

I found this one of the most compelling passages in the article:

<< Only one member of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra has not been given membership in the Philharmonic after completing a tenure period, the cellist Ursula Wex, who was hired in 2003. For the last eight years, she has been denied membership in the Vienna Philharmonic because she took maternity leave while a member of the State Opera Orchestra. >>

[Oscar]

On Friday, October 12, 2012 12:58:34 AM, Herman wrote:
>

> Still, as the article shows, the VPO keeps making very expensive
> American tours, visiting (as noted) campuses of supposedly liberal
> universities, because Americans are hung up on seeing the orchestra
> that plays the New Year's Day concert.

Hang-up announcement courtesy of Mr. Yuja Wang-Dresses-Like-A-Hooker.

> Sorry guys. You get what you pay for. You want olde worlde tradition?
> This is what you get.

Vienna Philharmonic — I'm Lovin' It ™

> There are at least a dozen orchestras in the German - Austrian tradition
> that could provide an equally thrilling concert experience, but these are
> not invited. They don't do the televised New Year's Day concert.

Yeah, that's the ticket!

[Herman]

Le vendredi 12 octobre 2012 10:47:35 UTC+2, Oscar a écrit :


>
> I found this one of the most compelling passages in the article:
>
>
>
> << Only one member of the Vienna State Opera Orchestra has not been given membership in the Philharmonic after completing a tenure period, the cellist Ursula Wex, who was hired in 2003. For the last eight years, she has been denied membership in the Vienna Philharmonic because she took maternity leave while a member of the State Opera Orchestra. >>

Well, that's only logical, isn't it? If they're not eager for women to join the boys' club, that's what the boys are going to say.

[Oscar]

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 10:11:12 PM, M forever wrote:
>

> Speaking of German orchestras, you must never have heard of the
> Berliner Philharmoniker. Now that is a truly diverse and very

> international orchestra — and at the same time one which carries on a

> very long and deep tradition. Music does transcend cultural boundaries

> — except in America where there is no real culture, just a homogenized

> and cheapened down sauce of the lowest common denominators.

A primary axiom of National Socialist thinking was that all Western Cultural innovation was the product of the German race — described alternately as German, Germanic, Aryan, or Nordic; only creators of this background could produce genuinely innovative thought and art. Drawing from a German ideological tradition that had evolved over the nineteenth century, Hitler endorsed this view in Mein Kampf:

'All human culture, all results of art, science, and technology that we see before us today, are almost exclusively the creative product of the Aryan...If we were to divide mankind into three groups, the founders of culture, the bearers of culture, the destroyers of culture, only the Aryan could be considered as representative of the first group.'

Dennis, David B. Inhumanties: Nazi Interpretations of Western Culture. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2012. http://tiny.cc/k5g2lw

[M forever]

Yes, we know that, and I think we all agree that that was completely
bizarre nonsense. Of course, many "white" people subscribed to those
or very similar views back then, British and French colonialists just
as much as German nationalists - or Americans like Henry Ford whose
writings were among the most important influences on Hitler (according
to Hitler himself).

But - what does any of that have to do with any of what I said here?
The part about how international the BP is and how that demonstrates
that music does transcend cultural boundaries? The part in which I
pointed out that the orchestra which may not be the single best one in
Germany but which is no doubt the best known one and which is one of
the main flag bearers of German orchestral tradition actually has
many, many foreign members who have absorbed that playing culture and
who are carrying it on. Nothing could demonstrate more impressively
how musical values do indeed transcend cultural boundaries.

Except for in America where everything is cheapened down and
homogenized, but that has nothing to do with any of the racist
nonsense you babbled about. It is the opposite of cultural
development. America has received a vast and diverse cultural heritage
from its many immigrant populations but most of that diversity and
cultural heritage has disappeared and been replaced by the lowest
common denominator. That is probably also reflected in the sterile and
mechanical way American orchestras play most of the time.

[Dufus]

On Oct 5, 2:48 am, aesthete8 <art...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/12584

Lebrecht's interview with Muti ( Muti does most of the talking ) :
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01m5kwm