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New Bruggen Beethoven Cycle
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3Bs
Oct 25, 2012, 8:07:43 AM10/25/12
to
Just discovered this was more than a rumor. In the US, Qualiton has it
for $72, but you can order it direct from the orchestra's shop for
under 30 Euros, which is where I just placed my order.
http://www.orchestra18c-webshop.com/epages/63024268.sf/en_GB/?
Has anyone heard it?
for $72, but you can order it direct from the orchestra's shop for
under 30 Euros, which is where I just placed my order.
http://www.orchestra18c-webshop.com/epages/63024268.sf/en_GB/?
Has anyone heard it?
wkasimer
Oct 25, 2012, 10:56:59 AM10/25/12
to
shipping to the USA.
Bill
Gerry
Oct 25, 2012, 12:38:32 PM10/25/12
to
The recorded sound is said to be a problem, which is confirmed by listening to brief samples on some of the websites that sell the set.
Norman Schwartz
Oct 25, 2012, 1:13:29 PM10/25/12
to
very well). I can however hear that it has an airy distant sound all that
familiar from MC discs, and even their red book layers.
Norman
mswd...@gmail.com
Oct 25, 2012, 3:28:53 PM10/25/12
to
On Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:13:29 PM UTC-5, Norman Schwartz wrote:
> Clips at JPC.de. I can't hear anything special (but at my age I don't hear
> very well). I can however hear that it has an airy distant sound all that
> familiar from MC discs, and even their red book layers.
> Norman
I just auditioned the JPC tracks on a pair of Sony MDR-V6's, and am greatly relieved to say that the sound is pretty good. Sure, there is hall ambiance, but I don't see it as amounting to a distant or glassy sound that gets in the way of the instruments.
> Clips at JPC.de. I can't hear anything special (but at my age I don't hear
> very well). I can however hear that it has an airy distant sound all that
> familiar from MC discs, and even their red book layers.
> Norman
The review on SACD.net was a depressing read, but if I look at it again and don't see the word "rubato", then it's no better than trash for me. You can talk about a performance being slow, but that's superficuial. It is actually question simply of what is happening at the chosen tempi. And I hear a lot going on in these clips- and in a good way. The JPC clips are enouugh to suggest that Bruggen has his own ideas of phrasing, color and rubato, and his orchestra knows how to express them. That to me elevates the potential of this set up to exactly where I hoped it might be. Looking forward to receiving the set!
John Thomas
Oct 25, 2012, 3:55:44 PM10/25/12
to
On Oct 25, 9:38 am, Gerry <Orches...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> There are some reviews on the web, including this one:http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194
"...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
>
> There are some reviews on the web, including this one:http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194
symphony cycle..."
The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories. But it's nice to
see Järvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen get the praise it
deserves.
Why anyone would buy the Brüggen after a review like this rather than
one (or both) of these baffles me.
Gerard
Oct 25, 2012, 4:13:42 PM10/25/12
to
John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> typed:
Do you have any reason to trust that review?
It is too unbelievable to be ... believed.
It is too unbelievable to be ... believed.
John Thomas
Oct 25, 2012, 8:05:17 PM10/25/12
to
On Oct 25, 1:13 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed:
> > deserves.
> > Why anyone would buy the Br ggen after a review like this rather than
on most other review sites, and the author makes clear the reasons for
his dislike. Why not take it seriously? Of course in the end it's
just one person's opinion, but it's the only review available and I
personally would want to see more reviews before deciding whether to
buy it. It just surprised me that some were so eager to order the set
when the only guide was a single poor review and there were lingering
questions about the recording quality. Please buy it and report back
here. I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I could
imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique qualities
and superior sound.
> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed:
>
> > On Oct 25, 9:38 am, Gerry <Orches...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > There are some reviews on the web, including this
> > > one:http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194
>
> > "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
> > symphony cycle..."
>
> > The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
> > by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories. But it's nice to
> > see J rvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen get the praise it
> > On Oct 25, 9:38 am, Gerry <Orches...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > There are some reviews on the web, including this
> > > one:http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194
>
> > "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
> > symphony cycle..."
>
> > The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
> > by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories. But it's nice to
> > deserves.
> > Why anyone would buy the Br ggen after a review like this rather than
> > one (or both) of these baffles me.
>
> Do you have any reason to trust that review?
> It is too unbelievable to be ... believed.
The review is in depth and detailed, unlike anything written here or
>
> Do you have any reason to trust that review?
> It is too unbelievable to be ... believed.
on most other review sites, and the author makes clear the reasons for
his dislike. Why not take it seriously? Of course in the end it's
just one person's opinion, but it's the only review available and I
personally would want to see more reviews before deciding whether to
buy it. It just surprised me that some were so eager to order the set
when the only guide was a single poor review and there were lingering
questions about the recording quality. Please buy it and report back
here. I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I could
imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique qualities
and superior sound.
Matthew Silverstein
Oct 26, 2012, 12:30:24 AM10/26/12
to
On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT), John Thomas wrote:
> "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
> symphony cycle..."
>
> The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
> by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories.
That's not on SACD, is it? Bruggen's is indeed the first HIP SACD Beethoven
> "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
> symphony cycle..."
>
> The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
> by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories.
cycle, as far as I know.
Matty
John Thomas
Oct 26, 2012, 12:45:06 AM10/26/12
to
On Oct 26, 12:30 am, Matthew Silverstein
Where do I claim Brüggens' is not the first HIP SACD cycle? It's not
the first cycle on period instruments ; Immerseel's
was the first Beethoven symphonies set on original instruments.
the first cycle on period instruments ; Immerseel's
was the first Beethoven symphonies set on original instruments.
Johannes Roehl
Oct 26, 2012, 3:20:40 AM10/26/12
to
Am 26.10.2012 06:45, schrieb John Thomas:
> On Oct 26, 12:30 am, Matthew Silverstein
> <matthew.silverst...@ymail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT), John Thomas wrote:
>>> "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
>>> symphony cycle..."
>>
>>> The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
>>> by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories.
>>
>> That's not on SACD, is it? Bruggen's is indeed the first HIP SACD Beethoven
>> cycle, as far as I know.
>>
>> Matty
>
> Where do I claim Br�ggens' is not the first HIP SACD cycle? It's not
> On Oct 26, 12:30 am, Matthew Silverstein
> <matthew.silverst...@ymail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT), John Thomas wrote:
>>> "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
>>> symphony cycle..."
>>
>>> The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
>>> by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories.
>>
>> That's not on SACD, is it? Bruggen's is indeed the first HIP SACD Beethoven
>> cycle, as far as I know.
>>
>> Matty
>
> the first cycle on period instruments ; Immerseel's
> was the first Beethoven symphonies set on original instruments.
?
> was the first Beethoven symphonies set on original instruments.
The first cycles on original instruments were by Goodman, Hogwood and
Norrington in the 1980ties. I do not know who finished first. And
Br�ggen's first cycle was close behind. All of this took place many
years before Immerseel took up conducting.
Or what additional criterion for "first on perios instruments" am I
missing here?
Gerard
Oct 26, 2012, 5:01:59 AM10/26/12
to
Gerard
Oct 26, 2012, 5:12:58 AM10/26/12
to
John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> typed:
and their expectations, and that the review is too improbable to be believed.
There have been reviews of the concerts (during which these recordings were
made). I've also seen opinions about the new set (basically saying that the new
set is not very different from the old one).
> Please buy it and report back
> here. I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I could
> imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique qualities
> and superior sound.
I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound is
available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set maybe is not
for you.
Did you already try Krivine?
> On Oct 25, 1:13 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed:
> >
> > > On Oct 25, 9:38 am, Gerry <Orches...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > There are some reviews on the web, including this
> > > > one:http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194
> >
> > > "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument
> > > Beethoven symphony cycle..."
> >
> > > The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the
> > > set by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories. But it's
> > > nice to see J rvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen get the
> > > praise it deserves.
> > > Why anyone would buy the Br ggen after a review like this rather
> > > than one (or both) of these baffles me.
> >
> > Do you have any reason to trust that review?
> > It is too unbelievable to be ... believed.
>
> The review is in depth and detailed, unlike anything written here or
> on most other review sites, and the author makes clear the reasons for
> his dislike. Why not take it seriously? Of course in the end it's
> just one person's opinion, but it's the only review available and I
> personally would want to see more reviews before deciding whether to
> buy it. It just surprised me that some were so eager to order the set
> when the only guide was a single poor review and there were lingering
> questions about the recording quality.
I think that they wanted to have this set based on their experience with Br�ggen
> > John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed:
> >
> > > On Oct 25, 9:38 am, Gerry <Orches...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > There are some reviews on the web, including this
> > > > one:http://www.sa-cd.net/showtitle/8194
> >
> > > "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument
> > > Beethoven symphony cycle..."
> >
> > > The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the
> > > set by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories. But it's
> > > nice to see J rvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen get the
> > > praise it deserves.
> > > Why anyone would buy the Br ggen after a review like this rather
> > > than one (or both) of these baffles me.
> >
> > Do you have any reason to trust that review?
> > It is too unbelievable to be ... believed.
>
> The review is in depth and detailed, unlike anything written here or
> on most other review sites, and the author makes clear the reasons for
> his dislike. Why not take it seriously? Of course in the end it's
> just one person's opinion, but it's the only review available and I
> personally would want to see more reviews before deciding whether to
> buy it. It just surprised me that some were so eager to order the set
> when the only guide was a single poor review and there were lingering
> questions about the recording quality.
and their expectations, and that the review is too improbable to be believed.
There have been reviews of the concerts (during which these recordings were
made). I've also seen opinions about the new set (basically saying that the new
set is not very different from the old one).
> Please buy it and report back
> here. I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I could
> imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique qualities
> and superior sound.
available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set maybe is not
for you.
Did you already try Krivine?
3Bs
Oct 26, 2012, 7:34:04 AM10/26/12
to
On Oct 25, 7:05 pm, John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The review is in depth and detailed, unlike anything written here or
> on most other review sites, and the author makes clear the reasons for
> his dislike. Why not take it seriously?
It is a single review posed against the great pleasures Bruggen's
> The review is in depth and detailed, unlike anything written here or
> on most other review sites, and the author makes clear the reasons for
> his dislike. Why not take it seriously?
studio set and his live performances offer. Perhaps the new version
will not prove to be as lively and satisfying as those, but this
particular reviewer is more concerned with judging the new recordings
against others like Haitink and Jarvi. That's a waste of time for me.
Bruggen's prior studio Eroica and the live Concertgebouw one clearly
showed that he wasn't all about setting fires. The reviewer doesn't
show any awareness or sympathy for that, and fails to suggest whether
Bruggen fails on his own terms or just in comparison to his most
recent favorites. If you can accept the idea of Vanska, Haitink and P.
Järvi as your reference Beethoven, then the review may indeed be for
you!
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
John Thomas
Oct 26, 2012, 9:46:01 AM10/26/12
to
On Oct 26, 12:20 am, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
> Am 26.10.2012 06:45, schrieb John Thomas:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 12:30 am, Matthew Silverstein
> > <matthew.silverst...@ymail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT), John Thomas wrote:
> >>> "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
> >>> symphony cycle..."
>
> >>> The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
> >>> by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories.
>
> >> That's not on SACD, is it? Bruggen's is indeed the first HIP SACD Beethoven
> >> cycle, as far as I know.
>
> >> Matty
>
> > Where do I claim Brüggens' is not the first HIP SACD cycle? It's not
> Am 26.10.2012 06:45, schrieb John Thomas:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 26, 12:30 am, Matthew Silverstein
> > <matthew.silverst...@ymail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 25 Oct 2012 12:55:44 -0700 (PDT), John Thomas wrote:
> >>> "...a great shame that this was the first period instrument Beethoven
> >>> symphony cycle..."
>
> >>> The reviewer has obviously never heard of, much less heard, the set
> >>> by Immerseel/Anima Aeterna on Zig Zag Territories.
>
> >> That's not on SACD, is it? Bruggen's is indeed the first HIP SACD Beethoven
> >> cycle, as far as I know.
>
> >> Matty
>
> > the first cycle on period instruments ; Immerseel's
> > was the first Beethoven symphonies set on original instruments.
>
> ?
> The first cycles on original instruments were by Goodman, Hogwood and
> Norrington in the 1980ties. I do not know who finished first. And
> Brüggen's first cycle was close behind. All of this took place many
> > was the first Beethoven symphonies set on original instruments.
>
> ?
> The first cycles on original instruments were by Goodman, Hogwood and
> Norrington in the 1980ties. I do not know who finished first. And
> years before Immerseel took up conducting.
> Or what additional criterion for "first on perios instruments" am I
> missing here?
Thanks for the correction.
> Or what additional criterion for "first on perios instruments" am I
> missing here?
Norman Schwartz
Oct 26, 2012, 11:01:31 AM10/26/12
to
<mswd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:13:29 PM UTC-5, Norman Schwartz wrote:
>> Clips at JPC.de. I can't hear anything special (but at my age I don't hear
>> very well). I can however hear that it has an airy distant sound all that
>> familiar from MC discs, and even their red book layers.
>> Norman
>
> I just auditioned the JPC tracks on a pair of Sony MDR-V6's, and am
> greatly relieved to say that the sound is pretty good. Sure, there is
> hall ambiance, but I don't see it as amounting to a distant or glassy
> sound that gets in the way of the instruments.
>
I put on my pair of MDR V6s to be able to as closely as possible hear what
> On Thursday, October 25, 2012 12:13:29 PM UTC-5, Norman Schwartz wrote:
>> Clips at JPC.de. I can't hear anything special (but at my age I don't hear
>> very well). I can however hear that it has an airy distant sound all that
>> familiar from MC discs, and even their red book layers.
>> Norman
>
> I just auditioned the JPC tracks on a pair of Sony MDR-V6's, and am
> greatly relieved to say that the sound is pretty good. Sure, there is
> hall ambiance, but I don't see it as amounting to a distant or glassy
> sound that gets in the way of the instruments.
>
you have heard. Given that we all hear differently and with different
hearing abilities, I'll stand by my original assessment. E.g., take the
last movement of the op.67 (disc 3, track 9) in the climax the sound is one
big mush of distant noise awash in what I sense as overlapping notes plus
reverberation. I wouldn't care to live with it.
> The review on SACD.net was a depressing read, but if I look at it again
> talk about a performance being slow, but that's superficuial. It is
> actually question simply of what is happening at the chosen tempi. And I
> hear a lot going on in these clips- and in a good way. The JPC clips are
> enouugh to suggest that Bruggen has his own ideas of phrasing, color and
> rubato, and his orchestra knows how to express them. That to me elevates
> the potential of this set up to exactly where I hoped it might be.
> Looking forward to receiving the set!
Norman
> actually question simply of what is happening at the chosen tempi. And I
> hear a lot going on in these clips- and in a good way. The JPC clips are
> enouugh to suggest that Bruggen has his own ideas of phrasing, color and
> rubato, and his orchestra knows how to express them. That to me elevates
> the potential of this set up to exactly where I hoped it might be.
> Looking forward to receiving the set!
Gerard
Oct 27, 2012, 8:04:25 AM10/27/12
to
John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> typed:
Received my copy today. Listened to the first symphony.
It sounded pithless. And no superior sound at all.
It sounded pithless. And no superior sound at all.
fees...@gmail.com
Oct 27, 2012, 9:02:46 AM10/27/12
to
Op vrijdag 26 oktober 2012 13:50:34 UTC+2 schreef EM het volgende:
> Gerry <Orch...@aol.com> - Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:38:32 -0700 (PDT):
>
>
In what way is it a problem?
>
> EM
> Gerry <Orch...@aol.com> - Thu, 25 Oct 2012 09:38:32 -0700 (PDT):
>
>
>
> > The recorded sound is said to be a problem
>
>
>
> The venue, De Doelen in Rotterdam, is also a problem.
>
>
> > The recorded sound is said to be a problem
>
>
>
>
>
In what way is it a problem?
>
> EM
wkasimer
Oct 27, 2012, 11:08:47 AM10/27/12
to
On Oct 27, 8:04 am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Received my copy today. Listened to the first symphony.
> It sounded pithless. And no superior sound at all.
I listened to the selections available at the Glossa website. The
> Received my copy today. Listened to the first symphony.
> It sounded pithless. And no superior sound at all.
sonics appear to be less than optimal due to an excessively
reverberant acoustic.
But I found nothing "pithless" about the peformance, and don't intend
to cancel my order.
Bill
Gerard
Oct 27, 2012, 11:25:07 AM10/27/12
to
wkasimer <wkas...@comcast.net> typed:
It sounds very well on the kitchen radio.
>
> But I found nothing "pithless" about the peformance, and don't intend
> to cancel my order.
>
> Bill
The Glossa site gives only 2 selections. The Finale of symphony 1 is only a
small part of the story. Not representative for the rest of performance of the
symphony.
I gave an opinion. I didn't intend to have any influence on anyone's ordering.
> On Oct 27, 8:04 am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Received my copy today. Listened to the first symphony.
> > It sounded pithless. And no superior sound at all.
>
> I listened to the selections available at the Glossa website. The
> sonics appear to be less than optimal due to an excessively
> reverberant acoustic.
The problem is on the very muddy "bass side".
>
> > Received my copy today. Listened to the first symphony.
> > It sounded pithless. And no superior sound at all.
>
> I listened to the selections available at the Glossa website. The
> sonics appear to be less than optimal due to an excessively
> reverberant acoustic.
It sounds very well on the kitchen radio.
>
> But I found nothing "pithless" about the peformance, and don't intend
> to cancel my order.
>
> Bill
small part of the story. Not representative for the rest of performance of the
symphony.
I gave an opinion. I didn't intend to have any influence on anyone's ordering.
Norman Schwartz
Oct 27, 2012, 11:28:35 AM10/27/12
to
audiophile lexicon.
Norman
Gerard
Oct 27, 2012, 11:46:10 AM10/27/12
to
Norman Schwartz <nm...@optonline.net> typed:
It cannot be very new. I found it in my dictionary from 1956.
3Bs
Oct 27, 2012, 12:44:16 PM10/27/12
to
On Oct 27, 10:08 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I listened to the selections available at the Glossa website. The
> sonics appear to be less than optimal due to an excessively
> reverberant acoustic.
> Bill
> I listened to the selections available at the Glossa website. The
> sonics appear to be less than optimal due to an excessively
> reverberant acoustic.
Just listened to the Glossa tracks. On desk speakers, your description
seems accurate. Listen with headphones, though, and it sounds
wonderful, with the ambiance not blurring with the orchestra at all.
Wow, the finale of the 6th sounds just marvelous.
Norman Schwartz
Oct 27, 2012, 12:48:40 PM10/27/12
to
or 'The Absolute Sound'. However, I haven't read those in over 20 years.
And it's even been longer since reading Stereo Review or High Fidelity, all
four of those being the usual places for having seen their jargon.
Regards,
Norman
ec38...@gmail.com
Oct 27, 2012, 1:17:11 PM10/27/12
to
I have the proper initial redbook cd version of this new Brueggen release (Volksrant). The audio is indeed reverberant i.e. the details are not evident. However, as with all these audiophile matters, after some minutes only music counts. I am playing now the f5th full of rythmic pulse, pure classical victorious spirit, perfectly executed. The transition epic. I do not remember to have liked their Philips recording so much.
Proceed.
Proceed.
Message has been deleted
wkasimer
Nov 10, 2012, 6:57:20 AM11/10/12
to
On Oct 25, 7:07 am, 3Bs <threebs...@aol.com> wrote:
> Just discovered this was more than a rumor. In the US, Qualiton has it
> for $72, but you can order it direct from the orchestra's shop for
> under 30 Euros, which is where I just placed my order.
>
> http://www.orchestra18c-webshop.com/epages/63024268.sf/en_GB/?
>
> Has anyone heard it?
Has anyone received it yet? I ordered it two weeks ago, and no sign
> Just discovered this was more than a rumor. In the US, Qualiton has it
> for $72, but you can order it direct from the orchestra's shop for
> under 30 Euros, which is where I just placed my order.
>
> http://www.orchestra18c-webshop.com/epages/63024268.sf/en_GB/?
>
> Has anyone heard it?
of it.
Bill
Gerard
Nov 10, 2012, 7:04:47 AM11/10/12
to
wkasimer
Nov 10, 2012, 3:28:02 PM11/10/12
to
On Nov 10, 7:04 am, "Gerard" <ghendrikse-nospa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> typed:
Thanks. Mine arrived a few minutes ago....
Bill
> wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> typed:
Bill
John Thomas
Nov 10, 2012, 7:43:07 PM11/10/12
to
us a review.
John Thomas
Nov 10, 2012, 8:12:37 PM11/10/12
to
On Oct 26, 1:12 am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
(Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel. "Superior" sound is what
Vanska's BIS set has that the others don't, though all the other
recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
set. Will Brūggen offer something that none of these do?
> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
>
> > Please buy it and report back
> > here. I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I could
> > imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique qualities
> > and superior sound.
>
> I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound is
> available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set maybe is > not for you.
> Did you already try Krivine?
I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
> > Please buy it and report back
> > here. I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I could
> > imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique qualities
> > and superior sound.
>
> I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound is
> available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set maybe is > not for you.
> Did you already try Krivine?
haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
(Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel. "Superior" sound is what
Vanska's BIS set has that the others don't, though all the other
recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
set. Will Brūggen offer something that none of these do?
Gerard
Nov 11, 2012, 4:23:37 AM11/11/12
to
John Thomas <abras...@gmail.com> typed:
Imo not. The sound of Br�ggen's 2nd set is a letdown. The interpretation is not
very different from his first set.
I don't know J�rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_ "superior"?
If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set is an
option.
Or Harnoncourt's.
And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
> On Oct 26, 1:12� am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
> >
> > > Please buy it and report back
> > > here. � I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I
> > John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
> >
> > > Please buy it and report back
> > > could imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique
> > > qualities and superior sound.
> >
> > I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound
> > is
> > available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
> > maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
>
> I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
> haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
> (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
> Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel. "Superior" sound is what
> > > qualities and superior sound.
> >
> > I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound
> > is
> > available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
> > maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
>
> I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
> haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
> (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
> Vanska's BIS set has that the others don't, though all the other
> recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
> to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
> set. Will Brūggen offer something that none of these do?
> recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
> to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
Imo not. The sound of Br�ggen's 2nd set is a letdown. The interpretation is not
very different from his first set.
I don't know J�rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_ "superior"?
If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set is an
option.
Or Harnoncourt's.
And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
Ray Hall
Nov 11, 2012, 5:02:25 AM11/11/12
to
>> On Oct 26, 1:12Â am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
>>>
>>>> Please buy it and report back
>>>> here. Â I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I
>>> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
>>>
>>>> Please buy it and report back
>>>> could imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique
>>>> qualities and superior sound.
>>>
>>> I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound
>>> is
>>> available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
>>> maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
>>
>> I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
>> haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
>> (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
>> Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel. "Superior" sound is what
>> Vanska's BIS set has that the others don't, though all the other
>> recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
>> to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
>> set. Will Brūggen offer something that none of these do?
>
> Imo not. The sound of Brüggen's 2nd set is a letdown. The interpretation is not
>>>> qualities and superior sound.
>>>
>>> I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound
>>> is
>>> available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
>>> maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
>>
>> I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
>> haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
>> (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
>> Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel. "Superior" sound is what
>> Vanska's BIS set has that the others don't, though all the other
>> recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
>> to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
>> set. Will Brūggen offer something that none of these do?
>
> very different from his first set.
> I don't know Järvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_ "superior"?
>
> If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set is an
> option.
> Or Harnoncourt's.
> And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
Why not Brüggen's 1st set? How is the sound on that? And how high a
> If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set is an
> option.
> Or Harnoncourt's.
> And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
recommendation would you make it? Thx.
Ray Hall, Taree
>
Gerard
Nov 11, 2012, 5:40:06 AM11/11/12
to
Ray Hall <raymon...@bigpond.com> typed:
> > > On Oct 26, 1:12� am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com>
Because John already has a very fine HIP set and does not seem to want to have
another one.
> How is the sound on that?
It's not SOTA, but it's OK. Very enjoyable.
> And how high a
> recommendation would you make it? Thx.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
It (Br�ggen's 1st set) is a very "safe" recommendation of a HIP set for those
who don't prefer HIP sets in general.
No extremes.
> > > On Oct 26, 1:12� am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
> > > >
> > > > > Please buy it and report back
> > > > > here. � I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I
> > > > John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
> > > >
> > > > > Please buy it and report back
> > > > > could imagine getting another if I were convinced it had
> > > > > unique qualities and superior sound.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior
> > > > sound is
> > > > available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
> > > > maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
> > >
> > > I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
> > > haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three
> > > historicals (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and
> > > Walter/CBS) plus Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel.
> > > "Superior" sound is what Vanska's BIS set has that the others
> > > don't, though all the other recent sets have sound that's quite
> > > good. This collection seems to me to cover enough interpretive
> > > ground as not to require buying another set. Will Brūggen offer
> > > something that none of these do?
> >
> > Imo not. The sound of Br�ggen's 2nd set is a letdown. The
> > > > > unique qualities and superior sound.
> > > >
> > > > I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior
> > > > sound is
> > > > available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
> > > > maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
> > >
> > > I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
> > > haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three
> > > historicals (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and
> > > Walter/CBS) plus Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel.
> > > "Superior" sound is what Vanska's BIS set has that the others
> > > don't, though all the other recent sets have sound that's quite
> > > good. This collection seems to me to cover enough interpretive
> > > ground as not to require buying another set. Will Brūggen offer
> > > something that none of these do?
> >
> > interpretation is not very different from his first set.
> > I don't know J�rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_
> > "superior"?
> >
> > If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set
> > is an option.
> > Or Harnoncourt's.
> > And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
>
> Why not Br�ggen's 1st set?
> >
> > If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set
> > is an option.
> > Or Harnoncourt's.
> > And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
>
Because John already has a very fine HIP set and does not seem to want to have
another one.
> How is the sound on that?
> And how high a
> recommendation would you make it? Thx.
>
> Ray Hall, Taree
who don't prefer HIP sets in general.
No extremes.
John Thomas
Nov 11, 2012, 9:44:32 AM11/11/12
to
> I don't know Järvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_ "superior"?
It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
Vänskä's. And it's a very good set, probably the best HIP influenced
but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response.
It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
Vänskä's. And it's a very good set, probably the best HIP influenced
but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response.
Bob Harper
Nov 11, 2012, 12:36:46 PM11/11/12
to
performances *about* anything? I don't hear it :(
Bob Harper
John Thomas
Nov 11, 2012, 5:08:37 PM11/11/12
to
On Nov 11, 9:36 am, Bob Harper <bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 11/11/12 6:44 AM, John Thomas wrote:
>
> > On Oct 26, 1:12 am, "Gerard"<ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote
> On 11/11/12 6:44 AM, John Thomas wrote:
>
>
> >> I don't know J rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_ "superior"?
>
> > It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
> > V nsk 's. And it's a very good set, probably the best HIP influenced
> > It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
> > but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response.
>
> Hmm. I'll agree that the *sound* on V nksa's set is superb, but arfe the
>
> performances *about* anything? I don't hear it :(
>
> Bob Harper
I was praising Järvi's set, not Vänskä's. But, since I'm open to many
>
> Bob Harper
differing approaches, and don't believe that music is required to be
"about" anything (whatever "about" is supposed to mean,) I like
Vänskä's set too. I just like Järvi's more.
wkasimer
Nov 11, 2012, 6:13:30 PM11/11/12
to
I agree with the sentiments expressed by others - that the
interpretation is not much different from the Philips set, and that
the sound isn't quite as good. It sounds as though the venue is
overreverberant, and the engineers avoided compensating for that by
"spotlighting" certain instruments. So the sound is consistent and
fairly natural, but lacking in clarity. On my system, it sounds
rather like an undoctored recording made from the back of the hall.
The music making is such that it's pretty easy to get past the sonics,
but those who value clarity will not be satisfied. BTW, I've only
listened to the SACD layer, two channels (I think that there's a
multichannel layer, but that's not relevant for me).
So this one is for Beethoven gluttons or Brüggen fans (and I'm both).
If bought directly from the orchestra, the price is pretty
reasonable. If you want an SACD cycle, there are much better-sounding
alternatives, and for HIP, I'd probably choose Krivine as the best
combination of performance and sonics.
Bill
Bob Harper
Nov 11, 2012, 8:06:22 PM11/11/12
to
Potter Stewart: I know it when I hear it :)
Bob Harper
M forever
Nov 11, 2012, 10:22:49 PM11/11/12
to
And, BTW, Beethoven's music is actually "about" a lot of things. It is about contrasting ideas, conflict and resolution. There isn't much in that in Vänskä's performances either.
There are some which take a somewhat similar approach and try to "let the music speak for itself" (whatever that may mean) and where the focus seems to be more on presenting the text in a highly objective but well crafted way. Or those in which the real "message" is the refined orchestral playing culture as such. But as good and technically accomplished as Vänskä and the Minnesota Orchestra are, they are not even in the same league as some of those who tried that successfully.
Ed Presson
Nov 12, 2012, 4:30:15 PM11/12/12
to
"M forever" wrote in message
news:d054c746-837d-44ea...@googlegroups.com...
certainly concur with this assessment based on the one's I've heard.
Ed Presson
Bob Harper
Nov 12, 2012, 4:37:06 PM11/12/12
to
those I have heard seem to me better in the sense Michael's talking
about. They still aren't particularly to my taste, but rather them than
Vänska.
Bob Harper
Al Eisner
Nov 12, 2012, 6:13:23 PM11/12/12
to
>> On Oct 26, 1:12Â am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
>>>
>>>> Please buy it and report back
>>>> here. Â I have enough (7) Beethoven symphony sets myself but I
>>> John Thomas <abrasax...@gmail.com> typed.
>>>
>>>> Please buy it and report back
>>>> could imagine getting another if I were convinced it had unique
>>>> qualities and superior sound.
>>>
>>> I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound
>>> is
>>> available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
>>> maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
>>
>> I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
>> haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
>> (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
>> Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel. "Superior" sound is what
>> Vanska's BIS set has that the others don't, though all the other
>> recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
>> to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
>> set. Will Brūggen offer something that none of these do?
>
> Imo not. The sound of Brüggen's 2nd set is a letdown. The interpretation is not
>>>> qualities and superior sound.
>>>
>>> I don't know which sets you have, so I cannot say if superior sound
>>> is
>>> available. But if superior sound is what you wish, then this set
>>> maybe is > not for you. Did you already try Krivine?
>>
>> I've seen the Krivine set and read the comments on Amazon but I
>> haven't been tempted to try it. What I do have is three historicals
>> (Furtz/Berlin live, Klemps/Philharmonia live and Walter/CBS) plus
>> Barenboim I, Vänskä, Järvi and Immerseel. "Superior" sound is what
>> Vanska's BIS set has that the others don't, though all the other
>> recent sets have sound that's quite good. This collection seems to me
>> to cover enough interpretive ground as not to require buying another
>> set. Will Brūggen offer something that none of these do?
>
> very different from his first set.
> I don't know Järvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_ "superior"?
>
> If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set is an
> option.
> Or Harnoncourt's.
> And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
The Harnoncourt 5-CD set is currently on sale at UK outlets: $19 at MDT,
> If you'ld consider buying another set, maybe one of the Karajan set is an
> option.
> Or Harnoncourt's.
> And I'm always willing to recommend Chailly's.
$21 at Presto (which is likely to have a lower shipping cost to the US,
which affects some of us). I've been thinking for quite a while of picking
it up, and this looks like a good opportunity.
[The 14-CD Beethoven set is only about $37 at Presto, but I'm less
interested in most of the remaining contents.]
--
Al Eisner
jrsnfld
Nov 13, 2012, 12:39:20 AM11/13/12
to
--Jeff
John Thomas
Nov 13, 2012, 1:00:53 AM11/13/12
to
LvB symphonies sets, particularly any that neither of us has heard,
I'm not likely to.
Gerard
Nov 13, 2012, 3:07:24 AM11/13/12
to
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> typed:
I haven't heard that either. Is it commercially available?
Not a name I'm familiar with. Maybe I'll remember that name - sometimes I buy a
new Beethoven set (for no good reason at all).
Not a name I'm familiar with. Maybe I'll remember that name - sometimes I buy a
new Beethoven set (for no good reason at all).
CharlesSmith
Nov 13, 2012, 3:43:39 AM11/13/12
to
> > On Oct 26, 1:12� am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> >
>
> > > > I don't know J�rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound
http://www.manchestercamerata.co.uk/shop
But you can probably get them for less elsewhere.
I have bought the 4/7 CD having heard them in concert. They are good lively chamber orchestra performances. Does that make them HIP-inspired? They're not percussive (eg like Jarvi).
Charles
>
> >
>
> > > > I don't know J�rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound
>
> > > > _not_ "superior"? <<
>
> > >
>
> > It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
>
> > V�nsk�'s. And it's a very good set, probably the best HIP influenced
> > > > _not_ "superior"? <<
>
> > >
>
> > It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
>
>
> > but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response. <
>
> >
>
> > Have you heard the set from Douglas Boyd and Manchester Camerata? I
>
> > have not, but after hearing the superb cycle Boyd conducted in
>
> > Melbourne (aired on the radio last week), I'll bet Boyd's gives
>
> > Jarvi's and Krivine's sets stiff competition for the crown as best
>
> > HIP inspired (but not HIP) cycle, maybe even Harnoncourt's too.
>
> >
>
> > --Jeff
>
>
>
> I haven't heard that either. Is it commercially available?
>
> Not a name I'm familiar with. Maybe I'll remember that name - sometimes I buy a
>
> new Beethoven set (for no good reason at all).
Shop at:
> > but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response. <
>
> >
>
> > Have you heard the set from Douglas Boyd and Manchester Camerata? I
>
> > have not, but after hearing the superb cycle Boyd conducted in
>
> > Melbourne (aired on the radio last week), I'll bet Boyd's gives
>
> > Jarvi's and Krivine's sets stiff competition for the crown as best
>
> > HIP inspired (but not HIP) cycle, maybe even Harnoncourt's too.
>
> >
>
> > --Jeff
>
>
>
> I haven't heard that either. Is it commercially available?
>
> Not a name I'm familiar with. Maybe I'll remember that name - sometimes I buy a
>
> new Beethoven set (for no good reason at all).
http://www.manchestercamerata.co.uk/shop
But you can probably get them for less elsewhere.
I have bought the 4/7 CD having heard them in concert. They are good lively chamber orchestra performances. Does that make them HIP-inspired? They're not percussive (eg like Jarvi).
Charles
Ed Presson
Nov 13, 2012, 10:51:35 AM11/13/12
to
"Bob Harper" wrote in message
news:8_dos.865003$Xo4.6...@en-nntp-13.dc1.easynews.com...
On 11/12/12 1:30 PM, Ed Presson wrote:
> "M forever" wrote in message
> news:d054c746-837d-44ea...@googlegroups.com...
>
> On Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:08:37 PM UTC-5, John Thomas wrote:
>> On Nov 11, 9:36 am, Bob Harper<bob.har...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/12 6:44 AM, John Thomas wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> On Oct 26, 1:12 am, "Gerard"<ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>> I don't know J rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound _not_
>>>>> "superior"?
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
>>
>>>> V nsk 's. And it's a very good set, probably the best HIP influenced
>>
>>>> but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Hmm. I'll agree that the *sound* on V nksa's set is superb, but arfe the
>>
>>> performances *about* anything? I don't hear it :(
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Bob Harper
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> differing approaches, and don't believe that music is required to be
>>
>> "about" anything (whatever "about" is supposed to mean,) I like
>>
>> V�nsk�'s set too. I just like J�rvi's more.
>> differing approaches, and don't believe that music is required to be
>>
>> "about" anything (whatever "about" is supposed to mean,) I like
>>
>
>> Music doesn't have to be "about" anything but V�nsk�'s Beethoven is just
>> astonishingly sterile and almost> > without any kind of inflection
>> or musical refinement beyond just playing the written notes, and even
>> that
>> in a> > stiff and metronomic fashion.
>> And, BTW, Beethoven's music is actually "about" a lot of things. It is
>> about contrasting ideas, conflict and> > > >resolution. There isn't
>> much
>> in that in V�nsk�'s performances either.
>> or musical refinement beyond just playing the written notes, and even
>> that
>> in a> > stiff and metronomic fashion.
>> And, BTW, Beethoven's music is actually "about" a lot of things. It is
>> about contrasting ideas, conflict and> > > >resolution. There isn't
>> much
>> There are some which take a somewhat similar approach and try to "let the
>> music speak for itself" (whatever>that may mean) and where the focus
>> seems
>> to be more on presenting the text in a highly objective but well>crafted
>> way. Or those in which the real "message" is the refined orchestral
>> playing
>> culture as such. But as good>and technically accomplished as V�nsk� and
>> music speak for itself" (whatever>that may mean) and where the focus
>> seems
>> to be more on presenting the text in a highly objective but well>crafted
>> way. Or those in which the real "message" is the refined orchestral
>> playing
>> the Minnesota Orchestra are, they are not even in the same league>as some
>> of those who tried that successfully.
>
> I've not heard all of Jarvi's recordings of the Beethoven symphonies, but
> I
> certainly concur with this assessment based on the one's I've heard.
>
> Ed Presson
>
>
Are you referring to V�nska or J�rvi? I've not heard all of J�rvi's, but
>> of those who tried that successfully.
>
> I've not heard all of Jarvi's recordings of the Beethoven symphonies, but
> I
> certainly concur with this assessment based on the one's I've heard.
>
> Ed Presson
>
>
those I have heard seem to me better in the sense Michael's talking
about. They still aren't particularly to my taste, but rather them than
V�nska.
about. They still aren't particularly to my taste, but rather them than
Bob Harper
Your guess was correct; I meant V�nska. My apologies for the confusion.
Ed Presson
M forever
Nov 13, 2012, 11:25:48 AM11/13/12
to
jrsnfld
Nov 13, 2012, 11:50:21 AM11/13/12
to
unusual--overly energetic. (Plus he, or someone, in the Melbourne
cycle is frequently groaning quite loudly, a la Celibidache, another
plus in his favor!).
I liked the results he got in the 5th in Melbourne. The phrasing was
distinctive and refreshing (even though some of the ideas did indeed
seem like stock HIP gestures, I guess), the piece moved along well and
the textures clean and balanced. He's not the most dramatic conductor,
but I wasn't bored by any stretch.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
Nov 13, 2012, 11:54:33 AM11/13/12
to
On Nov 13, 12:43 am, CharlesSmith <sigma.onl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:12:41 AM UTC, Gerard wrote:
> > jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> typed:
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 8:12:41 AM UTC, Gerard wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 26, 1:12 am, "Gerard" <ghendrik-nospam_...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > > > > I don't know J rvi's (Paavo, I presume) set. But is its sound
>
> > > > > _not_ "superior"? <<
>
> > > It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
>
> > > V nsk 's. And it's a very good set, probably the best HIP influenced
> > > > > _not_ "superior"? <<
>
> > > It's very good RCA sound, just not quite up to the BIS standard of
>
>
> > > but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response. <
>
> > > Have you heard the set from Douglas Boyd and Manchester Camerata? I
>
> > > have not, but after hearing the superb cycle Boyd conducted in
>
> > > Melbourne (aired on the radio last week), I'll bet Boyd's gives
>
> > > Jarvi's and Krivine's sets stiff competition for the crown as best
>
> > > HIP inspired (but not HIP) cycle, maybe even Harnoncourt's too.
>
> > > --Jeff
>
> > I haven't heard that either. Is it commercially available?
>
> > Not a name I'm familiar with. Maybe I'll remember that name - sometimes I buy a
>
> > new Beethoven set (for no good reason at all).
>
> Shop at:http://www.manchestercamerata.co.uk/shop
> But you can probably get them for less elsewhere.
>
> I have bought the 4/7 CD having heard them in concert. They are good lively chamber orchestra performances. Does that make them HIP-inspired? They're not percussive (eg like Jarvi).
I don't actually know why some HIP-inspired performances are so
> > > but not actually HIP set that I've heard. Thanks for your response. <
>
> > > Have you heard the set from Douglas Boyd and Manchester Camerata? I
>
> > > have not, but after hearing the superb cycle Boyd conducted in
>
> > > Melbourne (aired on the radio last week), I'll bet Boyd's gives
>
> > > Jarvi's and Krivine's sets stiff competition for the crown as best
>
> > > HIP inspired (but not HIP) cycle, maybe even Harnoncourt's too.
>
> > > --Jeff
>
> > I haven't heard that either. Is it commercially available?
>
> > Not a name I'm familiar with. Maybe I'll remember that name - sometimes I buy a
>
> > new Beethoven set (for no good reason at all).
>
> Shop at:http://www.manchestercamerata.co.uk/shop
> But you can probably get them for less elsewhere.
>
> I have bought the 4/7 CD having heard them in concert. They are good lively chamber orchestra performances. Does that make them HIP-inspired? They're not percussive (eg like Jarvi).
percussive, unless the logic is that when you reduce the penetrating
power of the winds and brass and reduce the size of the strings, you
end up favoring the drums. Perhaps there are texts attesting to the
noisiness of early performances, but I haven't studied this issue.
Boyd clearly favors vibrato-less string textures...is this not true in
the 4/7 CD? The phrasing also picks up some ideas from HIPeology, and
would have been totally shocking if I hadn't had years of preparation
from Harnoncourt, Brueggen, Hogwood, et al.
-Jeff
M forever
Nov 13, 2012, 1:59:57 PM11/13/12
to
One cycle I might be interested in checking out is Nelson with the Ensemble Orchestral de Paris. I like the sound of French wind playing so I would hope for some refined music making there, especially from the woodwinds.
M forever
Nov 13, 2012, 2:08:20 PM11/13/12
to
CharlesSmith
Nov 13, 2012, 2:16:25 PM11/13/12
to
Yes, I wasn't just refering to drums - the Boyd recordings aren't "insistent and edgy" (nor "whacky" and "bangy"), which was why I didn't think of them as HIP-inspired. But Jeff is right about the vibrato-less strings which would be quite a shock if we hadn't been HIP-conditioned.
Charles
mswd...@gmail.com
Nov 13, 2012, 2:58:55 PM11/13/12
to
On Sunday, November 11, 2012 5:13:30 PM UTC-6, wkasimer wrote:
> I've only listened to the first couple of discs, but based upon that,
> I agree with the sentiments expressed by others - that the
> interpretation is not much different from the Philips set, and that
> the sound isn't quite as good. It sounds as though the venue is
> overreverberant, and the engineers avoided compensating for that by
> "spotlighting" certain instruments.
Just listened to the fourth movement of 7 again- CD layer on a pair of Sony headphones that are fairly neutral. Personally, I love the sound of this set. Now onto 8-I, and just love that Bruggen makes up for sheer energy with color, unerring phrasing, and dynamic variety. The woodwinds sometimes cut through more than others, so maybe there is some spotlighting, but mostly, the instruments are well-balanced, and solos are notably "small" and natural. I just don't hear spotlighting. (Maybe that's my failing.)
> I've only listened to the first couple of discs, but based upon that,
> I agree with the sentiments expressed by others - that the
> interpretation is not much different from the Philips set, and that
> the sound isn't quite as good. It sounds as though the venue is
> overreverberant, and the engineers avoided compensating for that by
> "spotlighting" certain instruments.
This isn't HIP for people who want fast and flashy. Bruggen is patient, and conducts his orchestra like every note matters. There's almost never a moment were anything is rushed. But things are never pedantic or stiff; there's never an awkward transition. The only place I've been disappointed so far was in 9-IV.
M forever
Nov 13, 2012, 3:49:35 PM11/13/12
to
Bob Harper
Nov 13, 2012, 6:27:44 PM11/13/12
to
On 11/13/12 11:08 AM, M forever wrote:
(snip)
them and finally let them go as being a bit over the top.
Bob Harper
(snip)
> I am not sure that by "percussive" he just meant "the drums" - my
> impression was that he meant that those performances are generally
> rhythmically fairly insistent and edgy. But anyway, we do know that
> timpani of the period were much smaller and most of the time played
> with fairly hard sticks so while the sound of them is also smaller
> than that of later and much bigger timpani, it is very focused and
> somewhat "whacky" and "bangy", so from that and the way they are used
> in late 18th and early 19th century scores we can tell that they were
> meant to set strong accents in forte passages. Many orchestras of the
> late 18th century, BTW, didn't have permanent trumpet and timpani
> players - when those were needed, they were brought in from military
> bands - another strong indication for the nature of the sound they
> produced. And of course we know what the period trumpets were like,
> too, especially in the pre-valve era. They were more like short
> fanfares than the trumpets we have today.
have you heard the two discs by Fey (1&2 and 4&6)? Your thoughts? I had
> impression was that he meant that those performances are generally
> rhythmically fairly insistent and edgy. But anyway, we do know that
> timpani of the period were much smaller and most of the time played
> with fairly hard sticks so while the sound of them is also smaller
> than that of later and much bigger timpani, it is very focused and
> somewhat "whacky" and "bangy", so from that and the way they are used
> in late 18th and early 19th century scores we can tell that they were
> meant to set strong accents in forte passages. Many orchestras of the
> late 18th century, BTW, didn't have permanent trumpet and timpani
> players - when those were needed, they were brought in from military
> bands - another strong indication for the nature of the sound they
> produced. And of course we know what the period trumpets were like,
> too, especially in the pre-valve era. They were more like short
> fanfares than the trumpets we have today.
them and finally let them go as being a bit over the top.
Bob Harper
jrsnfld
Nov 13, 2012, 6:28:39 PM11/13/12
to
"insistent or edgy" or "whacky" or "bangy", but instead "clean" with
interesting enough phrasing even if the attacks are not as rounded as
in some performances. There may be a strong parallel here to Vanska's
supposedly antiseptic approach, which lives or dies by one's taste for
dynamic contrasts and drama, but Boyd strikes me as a less extreme
version of this tendency. There is more to say about it, I'm sure, but
first I'll listen to the whole of the 9th from Manchester. I queued it
up to listen on YouTube before I'd posted about Boyd's Beethoven, but
haven't gotten around to it.
--Jeff
jrsnfld
Nov 14, 2012, 2:13:29 AM11/14/12
to
control he had, in that 9th you can hear that they're basically
delivering the clipped-style-but-shaped ideas that presumably he asked
for in rehearsal. I have trouble believing it's all just an accident
or a stylistic tendency on the part of the orchestra without
considerable input from Boyd.
>
> One cycle I might be interested in checking out is Nelson with the Ensemble Orchestral de Paris. I like the sound of French wind playing so I would hope for some refined music making there, especially from the woodwinds.<
about it for the playing. They have very fine winds. One review on
Amazon is glowing, and it's by a former RMCR denizen who has good
taste.
On the other hand, for a cycle with old-line French playing, the
standard remains Schuricht, on EMI.
--Jeff
3Bs
Nov 14, 2012, 8:03:59 AM11/14/12
to
OK, let's say you take a small HIP-ish orchestra, have it perform
Beethoven with tempi as if it is the VPO of the 1970s, and put it in a
reverberant hall so that the orchestra sounds bigger, with the
orchestra blending into some sonic mush like it is Karajan-streamlined
Debussy, and whenever the timps really kick it up, it reminds you of
the storm sequence of the Pastoral.
Help me doctor, because I love it.
And that's really trying too hard. I still think the recording is
fine. It appears to have broken the rules of what must be done for
these types of efforts, though. I jut don't see a problem wit not
being able to cleanly hear every orchestral department all the time.
But I'm not an academic or a believer in much of anything besides what
I like to listen to.
Beethoven with tempi as if it is the VPO of the 1970s, and put it in a
reverberant hall so that the orchestra sounds bigger, with the
orchestra blending into some sonic mush like it is Karajan-streamlined
Debussy, and whenever the timps really kick it up, it reminds you of
the storm sequence of the Pastoral.
Help me doctor, because I love it.
And that's really trying too hard. I still think the recording is
fine. It appears to have broken the rules of what must be done for
these types of efforts, though. I jut don't see a problem wit not
being able to cleanly hear every orchestral department all the time.
But I'm not an academic or a believer in much of anything besides what
I like to listen to.
Lena
Nov 14, 2012, 8:35:39 AM11/14/12
to
On Nov 14, 5:03 am, 3Bs <threebs...@aol.com> wrote:
> OK, let's say you take a small HIP-ish orchestra, have it perform
> Beethoven with tempi as if it is the VPO of the 1970s, and put it in a
> reverberant hall so that the orchestra sounds bigger, with the
> orchestra blending into some sonic mush like it is Karajan-streamlined
> Debussy, and whenever the timps really kick it up, it reminds you of
> the storm sequence of the Pastoral.
>
> Help me doctor, because I love it.
(laugh)
> OK, let's say you take a small HIP-ish orchestra, have it perform
> Beethoven with tempi as if it is the VPO of the 1970s, and put it in a
> reverberant hall so that the orchestra sounds bigger, with the
> orchestra blending into some sonic mush like it is Karajan-streamlined
> Debussy, and whenever the timps really kick it up, it reminds you of
> the storm sequence of the Pastoral.
>
> Help me doctor, because I love it.
>
> And that's really trying too hard. I still think the recording is
> fine. It appears to have broken the rules of what must be done for
> these types of efforts, though. I jut don't see a problem wit not
> being able to cleanly hear every orchestral department all the time.
> But I'm not an academic or a believer in much of anything besides what
> I like to listen to.
actually talking about the Subject Matter. :)
Lena
Lena
Nov 14, 2012, 8:49:40 AM11/14/12
to
On Nov 13, 11:13 pm, jrsnfld <jrsn...@aol.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> > > > > Have you heard the set from Douglas Boyd and Manchester Camerata? I have not, but after hearing the superb cycle Boyd conducted in Melbourne (aired on the radio last week), I'll bet Boyd's gives Jarvi's and Krivine's sets stiff competition for the crown as best HIP inspired (but not HIP) cycle, maybe even Harnoncourt's too.
>
set in the subject line -- but Boyd sounds fine. And pretty
interesting, too.
(So far, I only listened to his 9th, first movement, but not on
YouTube. Based on that, I agree with you that some of the clipped
articulation is not too standard, and the balances shift in quite a
purposeful way. (All of which is nice.) If that's just the
orchestra's doing, well, fantastic. If Boyd's, it's good too. What
else has Boyd done?)
The Nelson (I have roughly the same amount of exposure, a bit more)
didn't interest me as much. The balances favored a linear view of
things, so also the overall conduit of things wasn't that much to my
taste. But though I count myself out, there may well be other angles
from which this set will appeal to some. (And I'm sure the playing is
good, but I'm still avoiding listening to woodwind solos. :):) )
>
> > One cycle I might be interested in checking out is Nelson with the Ensemble Orchestral de Paris. I like the sound of French wind playing so I would hope for some refined music making there, especially from the woodwinds.<
>
> I passed up a copy of this not long ago in a store, but I am curious
> about it for the playing. They have very fine winds. One review on
> Amazon is glowing, and it's by a former RMCR denizen who has good
> taste.
(Who? :) I don't think I know him... Well, unless he was one of
these guys with an exorbitant nom de plume.)
[...]
>
> > > > > Have you heard the set from Douglas Boyd and Manchester Camerata? I have not, but after hearing the superb cycle Boyd conducted in Melbourne (aired on the radio last week), I'll bet Boyd's gives Jarvi's and Krivine's sets stiff competition for the crown as best HIP inspired (but not HIP) cycle, maybe even Harnoncourt's too.
>
> > I have no "problem" with his "overly energetic" body language. I just don't think he is a goo conductor. I don't see him being really in control of what's going on beyond basic parameters. I don't see any real interaction between him and what's happening in the orchestra. It all seems a little mechanical to me.<
>
> I can't say without having rehearsals to consider. Whatever lack of
> control he had, in that 9th you can hear that they're basically
> delivering the clipped-style-but-shaped ideas that presumably he asked
> for in rehearsal. I have trouble believing it's all just an accident
> or a stylistic tendency on the part of the orchestra without
> considerable input from Boyd.
>
Thanks for the hint! Not that I've even opened the wrapping on the
>
> I can't say without having rehearsals to consider. Whatever lack of
> control he had, in that 9th you can hear that they're basically
> delivering the clipped-style-but-shaped ideas that presumably he asked
> for in rehearsal. I have trouble believing it's all just an accident
> or a stylistic tendency on the part of the orchestra without
> considerable input from Boyd.
>
set in the subject line -- but Boyd sounds fine. And pretty
interesting, too.
(So far, I only listened to his 9th, first movement, but not on
YouTube. Based on that, I agree with you that some of the clipped
articulation is not too standard, and the balances shift in quite a
purposeful way. (All of which is nice.) If that's just the
orchestra's doing, well, fantastic. If Boyd's, it's good too. What
else has Boyd done?)
The Nelson (I have roughly the same amount of exposure, a bit more)
didn't interest me as much. The balances favored a linear view of
things, so also the overall conduit of things wasn't that much to my
taste. But though I count myself out, there may well be other angles
from which this set will appeal to some. (And I'm sure the playing is
good, but I'm still avoiding listening to woodwind solos. :):) )
>
> > One cycle I might be interested in checking out is Nelson with the Ensemble Orchestral de Paris. I like the sound of French wind playing so I would hope for some refined music making there, especially from the woodwinds.<
>
> I passed up a copy of this not long ago in a store, but I am curious
> about it for the playing. They have very fine winds. One review on
> Amazon is glowing, and it's by a former RMCR denizen who has good
> taste.
these guys with an exorbitant nom de plume.)
Lena
Nov 14, 2012, 9:15:40 AM11/14/12
to
And it's sad that it's sonics that undermines such an effort...
(So, should I open the CDs I just got? :) )
L.
wkasimer
Nov 14, 2012, 9:39:18 AM11/14/12
to
On Nov 13, 2:58 pm, mswdes...@gmail.com wrote:
> > It sounds as though the venue is
> > overreverberant, and the engineers avoided compensating for that by
> > "spotlighting" certain instruments.
>>>>>>>>Just listened to the fourth movement of 7 again- CD layer on a pair of Sony headphones that are fairly neutral. Personally, I love the sound of this set. Now onto 8-I, and just love that Bruggen makes up for sheer energy with color, unerring phrasing, and dynamic variety. The woodwinds sometimes cut through more than others, so maybe there is some spotlighting, but mostly, the instruments are well-balanced, and solos are notably "small" and natural. I just don't hear spotlighting. (Maybe that's my failing.)<<<<<<<<<<
Looking at my post, I can see that my point was virtually
> > It sounds as though the venue is
> > overreverberant, and the engineers avoided compensating for that by
> > "spotlighting" certain instruments.
>>>>>>>>Just listened to the fourth movement of 7 again- CD layer on a pair of Sony headphones that are fairly neutral. Personally, I love the sound of this set. Now onto 8-I, and just love that Bruggen makes up for sheer energy with color, unerring phrasing, and dynamic variety. The woodwinds sometimes cut through more than others, so maybe there is some spotlighting, but mostly, the instruments are well-balanced, and solos are notably "small" and natural. I just don't hear spotlighting. (Maybe that's my failing.)<<<<<<<<<<
unintelligible due to my atrocious grammar. What I really meant to
say was that the sonics are quite natural., and that there *isn't*
much spotlighting.
Bill
jrsnfld
Nov 14, 2012, 11:52:45 AM11/14/12
to
Put it away. Forget about it...then in a few months or so, buy another
copy by mistake and confirm your interest.
--Jeff
J.Martin
Nov 14, 2012, 2:56:14 PM11/14/12
to
.
>
> The Harnoncourt 5-CD set is currently on sale at UK outlets: $19 at MDT,
> $21 at Presto (which is likely to have a lower shipping cost to the US,
> which affects some of us). I've been thinking for quite a while of picking
> it up, and this looks like a good opportunity.
>
> [The 14-CD Beethoven set is only about $37 at Presto, but I'm less
> interested in most of the remaining contents.]
A wise assessment. The symphony performances constitute one of the
>
> The Harnoncourt 5-CD set is currently on sale at UK outlets: $19 at MDT,
> $21 at Presto (which is likely to have a lower shipping cost to the US,
> which affects some of us). I've been thinking for quite a while of picking
> it up, and this looks like a good opportunity.
>
> [The 14-CD Beethoven set is only about $37 at Presto, but I'm less
> interested in most of the remaining contents.]
great cycles of recent decades. The concertos are forgettable, the
Missa merely OK. Save yourself the money and shelf space and get the
symphony set.
M forever
Nov 14, 2012, 5:04:01 PM11/14/12
to
rehearsing, but what I was talking about is that there is no real
flexible interaction between him and the orchestra during the
performance. Sure, he starts the performance and sets tempi, but
that's about it.
Here is a great example for really flexible interaction between
orchestra and conductor instead of just running through the piece -
with Boyd's talents put to much better use:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HbMzu1aQW8
> > One cycle I might be interested in checking out is Nelson with the Ensemble Orchestral de Paris. I like the sound of French wind playing so I would hope for some refined music making there, especially from the woodwinds.<
>
> I passed up a copy of this not long ago in a store, but I am curious
> about it for the playing. They have very fine winds. One review on
> Amazon is glowing, and it's by a former RMCR denizen who has good
> taste.
>
> On the other hand, for a cycle with old-line French playing, the
> standard remains Schuricht, on EMI.
orchestra. Of course, that is vintage French orchestral style, not
quite the same as what I expect to find in Nelson's set - but
something that really interests me, too. I see there is a very
reasonably priced box with that cycle and Schuricht's Bruckner 8 and 9
- while the box with just the 9 symphonies is offered for $150 on
Amazon.
Lena
Nov 15, 2012, 5:55:42 AM11/15/12
to
"pro" in procurement. :) What the "cure" is doing there, I don't
know.)
L. (who, however, hasn't opened the box yet :) )
Al Eisner
Nov 15, 2012, 5:31:21 PM11/15/12
to
(I can't recall having previously heard any of them). There is a CD
grouping them, something to follow up on.
--
Al Eisner
3Bs
Nov 16, 2012, 9:42:32 PM11/16/12
to
On Nov 14, 8:39 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Looking at my post, I can see that my point was virtually
> unintelligible due to my atrocious grammar. What I really meant to
> say was that the sonics are quite natural., and that there *isn't*
> much spotlighting.
> Bill
OK, agreed on that. On reflection, it has occurred to me that anyone
> Looking at my post, I can see that my point was virtually
> unintelligible due to my atrocious grammar. What I really meant to
> say was that the sonics are quite natural., and that there *isn't*
> much spotlighting.
> Bill
who had a listening space that wasn't 100% dampened could easily find
the recording reverb too much.
Lena
Nov 17, 2012, 6:37:00 AM11/17/12
to
movements (so this is provisional), and I have to agree with both you
and Bill on this. The sound, especially instrument clarity, could be
better... the lower instruments turn into comparative murk, for
instance. And, yes, I didn't notice no highlighting. :)
But then I did like the performances a lot, anyway. Despite not
having pin-prick precise sound, the balances work in what I heard, and
important "side motives" get balanced to the fore (all of which is
more important to me than clarity). I'd have to compare to the first
set in detail, but as an approximation, I liked some movements better
than their earlier counterparts. Or I think I did (I didn't listen to
the first set equivalents). For one movement, my memory of the first
set won.
For slightly more reliable judgments, I'll eventually do a more
comprehensive comparison and see how the balances work in some crucial
(to me) spots, but I'm glad I got this set.
I've never considered Bruggen "perfect" or "unflawed", but something
about his conducting just works for me, and this set seems to "repair"
some issues I had with the first...
The sound could certainly have been better, clearer, and more
impactful, and it's a pity it isn't, but the upshot for me is that,
yes, it was a good idea to unwrap this set. :)
Lena
3Bs
Nov 20, 2012, 7:43:33 AM11/20/12
to
On Nov 17, 5:37 am, Lena <emswo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all your writing on this. I've just heard a few selected
> movements (so this is provisional), and I have to agree with both you
> and Bill on this. The sound, especially instrument clarity, could be
> better... the lower instruments turn into comparative murk, for
> instance. And, yes, I didn't notice no highlighting. :)
>
> But then I did like the performances a lot, anyway. Despite not
> having pin-prick precise sound, the balances work in what I heard, and
> important "side motives" get balanced to the fore (all of which is
> more important to me than clarity). I'd have to compare to the first
> set in detail, but as an approximation, I liked some movements better
> than their earlier counterparts. Or I think I did (I didn't listen to
> the first set equivalents). For one movement, my memory of the first
> set won.
>
> For slightly more reliable judgments, I'll eventually do a more
> comprehensive comparison and see how the balances work in some crucial
> (to me) spots, but I'm glad I got this set.
>
> I've never considered Bruggen "perfect" or "unflawed", but something
> about his conducting just works for me, and this set seems to "repair"
> some issues I had with the first...
>
> The sound could certainly have been better, clearer, and more
> impactful, and it's a pity it isn't, but the upshot for me is that,
> yes, it was a good idea to unwrap this set. :)
>
> Lena
Lena, I always appreciate your comments and look forward to any more
> Thanks for all your writing on this. I've just heard a few selected
> movements (so this is provisional), and I have to agree with both you
> and Bill on this. The sound, especially instrument clarity, could be
> better... the lower instruments turn into comparative murk, for
> instance. And, yes, I didn't notice no highlighting. :)
>
> But then I did like the performances a lot, anyway. Despite not
> having pin-prick precise sound, the balances work in what I heard, and
> important "side motives" get balanced to the fore (all of which is
> more important to me than clarity). I'd have to compare to the first
> set in detail, but as an approximation, I liked some movements better
> than their earlier counterparts. Or I think I did (I didn't listen to
> the first set equivalents). For one movement, my memory of the first
> set won.
>
> For slightly more reliable judgments, I'll eventually do a more
> comprehensive comparison and see how the balances work in some crucial
> (to me) spots, but I'm glad I got this set.
>
> I've never considered Bruggen "perfect" or "unflawed", but something
> about his conducting just works for me, and this set seems to "repair"
> some issues I had with the first...
>
> The sound could certainly have been better, clearer, and more
> impactful, and it's a pity it isn't, but the upshot for me is that,
> yes, it was a good idea to unwrap this set. :)
>
> Lena
you have to offer.
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