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Gergiev's exceptional "Symphonic Dances"
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William Sommerwerck
May 2, 2012, 10:19:02 AM5/2/12
to
I'm using "exceptional" in all senses of the word.
My first "Symphonic Dances" was the Turnabout audiophile recording from
1968, with Donald Johanos conducting the Dallas Symphony. I still think it's
one of the best. (It was available as a dbx LP, and can still be bought new
on CD. I'm surprised it and the companion recordings of Copland haven't
shown up on SACD.) Just for the record -- I don't care for Ormandy, and I've
never heard the Goossens performance.
The "Symphonic Dances" are, for me, like the "Brandenburgs" -- great music
that's almost always poorly performed. Both often come across as downright
turgid, as if the performers are slogging through the music. The Harnoncourt
"Symphonic Dances" is one of the few that doesn't (another recommendation).
The disappointing remarks from someone in this group about the new Gergiev
SACD inclined me to cancel the order, but I refrained -- and I'm glad I did.
Gergiev's performance verges on the revelatory, and might make you rethink
the work.
For one, the "Symphonic Dances" actually dances. Throughout, it's light on
its feet, and never succumbs to "mucking about in musical space" (to
paraphrase Donald Adams).
The "Symphonic Dances" are usually taken at relatively unchanging tempos.
(Note that I said "relatively". I've never heard a performance that /didn't/
vary in tempo.) But Gergiev offers a much wider range of tempos than we're
accustomed to. He isn't afraid to slow down for sections we don't normally
think of as "introspective" and find new insights about that section and its
relation to the surrounding sections. Then, when he returns to the
"mainstream", his "diversion" sounds as if it had been /leading up/ to what
follows. His attention to detail doesn't come at the expense of an overall
sense of structure, or forward momentum.
In other words... Gergiev conducts the "Symphonic Dances" the way that
German guy with my name is lauded for conducting, but never did. I found
myself smiling throughout all three movements. And there are places where he
sounds downright "Russian" -- dark and brooding, something we don't usually
associate with this work.
I never found Gergiev's conducting arbitrary, self-serving, or perverse. But
a warning is in order. You might find his approach way out of line with what
you're accustomed to. It's likely to be polarizing -- you'll either love it
or hate it.
The sound is what you'd expect from a good multi-ch SACD. The orchestra is
spread in front of you, but you're not sitting on top, and you're immersed
in the hall acoustics. It's close to the best SACDs I've heard.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
My first "Symphonic Dances" was the Turnabout audiophile recording from
1968, with Donald Johanos conducting the Dallas Symphony. I still think it's
one of the best. (It was available as a dbx LP, and can still be bought new
on CD. I'm surprised it and the companion recordings of Copland haven't
shown up on SACD.) Just for the record -- I don't care for Ormandy, and I've
never heard the Goossens performance.
The "Symphonic Dances" are, for me, like the "Brandenburgs" -- great music
that's almost always poorly performed. Both often come across as downright
turgid, as if the performers are slogging through the music. The Harnoncourt
"Symphonic Dances" is one of the few that doesn't (another recommendation).
The disappointing remarks from someone in this group about the new Gergiev
SACD inclined me to cancel the order, but I refrained -- and I'm glad I did.
Gergiev's performance verges on the revelatory, and might make you rethink
the work.
For one, the "Symphonic Dances" actually dances. Throughout, it's light on
its feet, and never succumbs to "mucking about in musical space" (to
paraphrase Donald Adams).
The "Symphonic Dances" are usually taken at relatively unchanging tempos.
(Note that I said "relatively". I've never heard a performance that /didn't/
vary in tempo.) But Gergiev offers a much wider range of tempos than we're
accustomed to. He isn't afraid to slow down for sections we don't normally
think of as "introspective" and find new insights about that section and its
relation to the surrounding sections. Then, when he returns to the
"mainstream", his "diversion" sounds as if it had been /leading up/ to what
follows. His attention to detail doesn't come at the expense of an overall
sense of structure, or forward momentum.
In other words... Gergiev conducts the "Symphonic Dances" the way that
German guy with my name is lauded for conducting, but never did. I found
myself smiling throughout all three movements. And there are places where he
sounds downright "Russian" -- dark and brooding, something we don't usually
associate with this work.
I never found Gergiev's conducting arbitrary, self-serving, or perverse. But
a warning is in order. You might find his approach way out of line with what
you're accustomed to. It's likely to be polarizing -- you'll either love it
or hate it.
The sound is what you'd expect from a good multi-ch SACD. The orchestra is
spread in front of you, but you're not sitting on top, and you're immersed
in the hall acoustics. It's close to the best SACDs I've heard.
--
"We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
questions." -- Edwin Land
Gerard
May 2, 2012, 10:42:24 AM5/2/12
to
William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> typed:
Curious. In the past you've always said that this (Symphomic Dances) is a
fun-piece. And IIRC you were almost always disappointed with performances that
did not bring this fun to the foreground.
Gergiev does not do so; he's "dark and brooding".
>
> I never found Gergiev's conducting arbitrary, self-serving, or
> perverse. But a warning is in order. You might find his approach way
> out of line with what you're accustomed to. It's likely to be
> polarizing -- you'll either love it or hate it.
>
> The sound is what you'd expect from a good multi-ch SACD. The
> orchestra is spread in front of you, but you're not sitting on top,
> and you're immersed in the hall acoustics. It's close to the best
> SACDs I've heard.
Also curious.
Two days ago you wrote:
"I was just listening to the new Gergiev "Symphonic Dances", one of those
idiotic surround recordings that foolishly attempts to create the illusion of a
concert hall -- and I found myself smiling almost all the way through."
fun-piece. And IIRC you were almost always disappointed with performances that
did not bring this fun to the foreground.
Gergiev does not do so; he's "dark and brooding".
>
> I never found Gergiev's conducting arbitrary, self-serving, or
> perverse. But a warning is in order. You might find his approach way
> out of line with what you're accustomed to. It's likely to be
> polarizing -- you'll either love it or hate it.
>
> The sound is what you'd expect from a good multi-ch SACD. The
> orchestra is spread in front of you, but you're not sitting on top,
> and you're immersed in the hall acoustics. It's close to the best
> SACDs I've heard.
Two days ago you wrote:
"I was just listening to the new Gergiev "Symphonic Dances", one of those
idiotic surround recordings that foolishly attempts to create the illusion of a
concert hall -- and I found myself smiling almost all the way through."
William Sommerwerck
May 2, 2012, 10:48:27 AM5/2/12
to
"Gerard" <ghendri-n...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:30c83$4fa147ad$5356543a$70...@cache90.multikabel.net...
> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> typed:
> Curious. In the past you've always said that this (Symphomic
> Dances) is a fun-piece. And IIRC you were almost always
> disappointed with performances that did not bring this fun
> to the foreground. Gergiev does not do so; he's "dark and
> brooding".
Not throughout. In spots, as appropriate. Besides, as a spiritual heir to
Brahms, I have to right to find the experience of "darkness and old night"
"fun".
> Two days ago you wrote:
>> "I was just listening to the new Gergiev "Symphonic Dances",
>> one of those idiotic surround recordings that foolishly attempts
>> to create the illusion of a concert hall -- and I found myself
>> smiling almost all the way through."
I mixed two thoughts, when perhaps I "shoont" (June Foray, "Little Blue
Riding Hood"). The remark about the recording's acoustics was made with
Great Sarcasm.
news:30c83$4fa147ad$5356543a$70...@cache90.multikabel.net...
> William Sommerwerck <grizzle...@comcast.net> typed:
> Curious. In the past you've always said that this (Symphomic
> Dances) is a fun-piece. And IIRC you were almost always
> disappointed with performances that did not bring this fun
> to the foreground. Gergiev does not do so; he's "dark and
> brooding".
Brahms, I have to right to find the experience of "darkness and old night"
"fun".
> Two days ago you wrote:
>> "I was just listening to the new Gergiev "Symphonic Dances",
>> one of those idiotic surround recordings that foolishly attempts
>> to create the illusion of a concert hall -- and I found myself
>> smiling almost all the way through."
Riding Hood"). The remark about the recording's acoustics was made with
Great Sarcasm.
jrsnfld
May 3, 2012, 6:52:45 PM5/3/12
to
On May 2, 7:19 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
I just relistened to a fairly recent concert performance with LSO/
Gergiev. I didn't find it exceptional. Not particularly dark, but
sumptuous. Tempo changes didn't strike me as very unusual. Brooding
only in the sense that the themes are sometimes presented a bit
slowly. Nothing out of line with what I'm accustomed to, however. It
seems lively enough, and nicely played by a superb orchestra. Couldn't
ask for much more--relatively typical of Gergiev and his orchestra
without being their most remarkable collaboration to date,
necessarily.
--Jeff
wrote:
Gergiev. I didn't find it exceptional. Not particularly dark, but
sumptuous. Tempo changes didn't strike me as very unusual. Brooding
only in the sense that the themes are sometimes presented a bit
slowly. Nothing out of line with what I'm accustomed to, however. It
seems lively enough, and nicely played by a superb orchestra. Couldn't
ask for much more--relatively typical of Gergiev and his orchestra
without being their most remarkable collaboration to date,
necessarily.
--Jeff
Frank Berger
May 3, 2012, 7:44:46 PM5/3/12
to
have always been disappointed.
jrsnfld
May 3, 2012, 10:44:21 PM5/3/12
to
I've rarely been disappointed. I don't expect revelations, but he
usually puts the music across very well, sometimes memorably well. He
may conduct too much, but he's more than just reliable, especially
with Russian music.
--Jeff
Dufus
May 3, 2012, 10:57:19 PM5/3/12
to
>On May 2, 9:19 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
Sine qua non : Vronsky and Babin, RCA lp : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeYZwmw81g
Dufus
Sine qua non : Vronsky and Babin, RCA lp : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeYZwmw81g
Dufus
jrsnfld
May 3, 2012, 11:57:07 PM5/3/12
to
On May 3, 7:57 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 2, 9:19 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Sine qua non : Vronsky and Babin, RCA lp : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeYZwmw81g
Yechh. That orchestra sounds so percussive, unable to sustain lyrical
> >On May 2, 9:19 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Sine qua non : Vronsky and Babin, RCA lp : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyeYZwmw81g
lines, lacking dynamic contrasts. ;-)
--Jeff
Matthew Silverstein
May 4, 2012, 12:19:35 AM5/4/12
to
On Thu, 3 May 2012 18:44:46 -0500, Frank Berger wrote:
> I've bought a number of Gergiev recordings based on various rave reviews
> and have always been disappointed.
My experience has been similar though less uniform. Three Gergiev
> I've bought a number of Gergiev recordings based on various rave reviews
> and have always been disappointed.
recordings I like very much (none of them recent, I'll note) are:
Tchaikovsky 5, Nutcracker, and Stravinsky's Firebird.
Matty
William Sommerwerck
May 4, 2012, 7:41:30 AM5/4/12
to
>> I've bought a number of Gergiev recordings based on
>> various rave reviews and have always been disappointed.
> On the other hand, I've listened to many of his live
> performances, and I've rarely been disappointed. I don't
> expect revelations, but he usually puts the music across
> very well, sometimes memorably well. He may conduct
> too much, but he's more than just reliable, especially
> with Russian music.
I've never thought of the "Symphonic Dances" as being a particularly
>> various rave reviews and have always been disappointed.
> On the other hand, I've listened to many of his live
> performances, and I've rarely been disappointed. I don't
> expect revelations, but he usually puts the music across
> very well, sometimes memorably well. He may conduct
> too much, but he's more than just reliable, especially
> with Russian music.
"Russian-sounding" work, but he brought that out at some points.
operafan
May 4, 2012, 10:19:00 AM5/4/12
to
On May 4, 7:41 am, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
wrote:
> I've never thought of the "Symphonic Dances" as being a particularly
> "Russian-sounding" work, but he brought that out at some points.
The last movement is full of cathedral balls, musical phrases similar
to Russian Orthodox chanting (but on speed!).
wrote:
> I've never thought of the "Symphonic Dances" as being a particularly
> "Russian-sounding" work, but he brought that out at some points.
to Russian Orthodox chanting (but on speed!).
Gerard
May 4, 2012, 11:49:27 AM5/4/12
to
Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> typed:
I've bought a number of his recordings based on reviews and listening to radio
programs. I've not been disappointed. Several of his recordings are much better
than what might be expected from those reviews.
OTOH this recording of the Symphonic Dances is not very special or exceptional.
What strikes the most is being too slow here and there.
programs. I've not been disappointed. Several of his recordings are much better
than what might be expected from those reviews.
OTOH this recording of the Symphonic Dances is not very special or exceptional.
What strikes the most is being too slow here and there.
jrsnfld
May 4, 2012, 11:52:44 AM5/4/12
to
music is Rachmaninoff's through and through; one can clearly hear the
earlier symphonies and other works regurgitated in this music--the
harmonies, the orchestration, certain melodic fragments, etc. Of
course, one can also imagine some passages being written by more
recent neo-Romantic composers from any number of countries. But to the
extent that Rachmaninoff's signature style is an outgrowth of
Mussorgsky or Borodin or Tchaikovsky, then Symphonic Dances is firmly
in the Russian traditions.
--Jeff
herman
May 4, 2012, 12:18:53 PM5/4/12
to
I'd say the Symphonic Dances are a very strange and alluring mix of
Russian soul and American glitz.
herman
May 4, 2012, 12:23:29 PM5/4/12
to
On 4 mai, 06:19, Matthew Silverstein <matthew.silverst...@ymail.com>
wrote:
I've heard a lot of Gergiev, both in concert and on the record, and
most of it was disappointing.
wrote:
most of it was disappointing.
John Wiser
May 4, 2012, 1:20:29 PM5/4/12
to
That last movement
also uses the Dies Irae motivically.
JDW
jrsnfld
May 4, 2012, 1:22:51 PM5/4/12
to
On May 4, 10:20 am, "John Wiser" <ceec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "herman" <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> On 4 mai, 16:19, operafan <peter.bar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> The last movement is full of cathedral balls, musical phrases similar
> >> to Russian Orthodox chanting (but on speed!).
> > Hello, Rachmaninoff is literally quoting the Orthodox Mass.
> > I'd say the Symphonic Dances are a very strange and alluring mix of
> > Russian soul and American glitz.
>
> I like the description!
I agree. Perhaps a retreat from American glitz toward Russian soul.
> "herman" <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> On 4 mai, 16:19, operafan <peter.bar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >> The last movement is full of cathedral balls, musical phrases similar
> >> to Russian Orthodox chanting (but on speed!).
> > Hello, Rachmaninoff is literally quoting the Orthodox Mass.
> > I'd say the Symphonic Dances are a very strange and alluring mix of
> > Russian soul and American glitz.
>
> I like the description!
--Jeff
Alan Cooper
May 4, 2012, 1:27:22 PM5/4/12
to
herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:196e69b5-8c62-4cf5...@y11g2000vbn.googlegroups.
com:
An amusing description, although I don't detect an ounce of that "American glitz."
What I do see is something similar to Jeff, nostalgia coupled with greater
discipline and conciseness than one finds in R's earlier works. So also the 3rd
Symphony, the Paganini Rhapsody, and the Corelli Variations, iow--all not
coincidentally among my favorite larger works by the composer. No comment on the
Gergiev recording, which I have not heard, but it would be hard to shake my
longstanding loyalty to the old Kondrashin in any case. Among more recent
recordings, I especially like Jansons/St. Petersburg, but that's not based on a
large sample.
AC
news:196e69b5-8c62-4cf5...@y11g2000vbn.googlegroups.
com:
What I do see is something similar to Jeff, nostalgia coupled with greater
discipline and conciseness than one finds in R's earlier works. So also the 3rd
Symphony, the Paganini Rhapsody, and the Corelli Variations, iow--all not
coincidentally among my favorite larger works by the composer. No comment on the
Gergiev recording, which I have not heard, but it would be hard to shake my
longstanding loyalty to the old Kondrashin in any case. Among more recent
recordings, I especially like Jansons/St. Petersburg, but that's not based on a
large sample.
AC
William Sommerwerck
May 4, 2012, 1:31:01 PM5/4/12
to
"John Wiser" <cee...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:GdUor.22131$zA4....@newsfe19.iad...
> That last movement also uses the Dies Irae motivically.
The Rock used the Dies Irae in almost everything. It's a great melody.
I once kept a list of movie scores that used the Dies Irae, but it was lost
in a freak software glitch, when a program that was supposed to protect my
files trashed them instead. It's amazing how many composers have used it. To
state a prominent example... The "Kane" theme is strongly reminiscent of the
Dies Irae.
news:GdUor.22131$zA4....@newsfe19.iad...
> That last movement also uses the Dies Irae motivically.
I once kept a list of movie scores that used the Dies Irae, but it was lost
in a freak software glitch, when a program that was supposed to protect my
files trashed them instead. It's amazing how many composers have used it. To
state a prominent example... The "Kane" theme is strongly reminiscent of the
Dies Irae.
operafan
May 6, 2012, 12:06:55 PM5/6/12
to
I wrote:
> > The last movement is full of cathedral balls, musical phrases similar
> > to Russian Orthodox chanting (but on speed!).
> > The last movement is full of cathedral balls, musical phrases similar
> > to Russian Orthodox chanting (but on speed!).
On May 4, 12:18 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hello, Rachmaninoff is literally quoting the Orthodox Mass.
Thanks for this information. I have heard this kind of music but not
> Hello, Rachmaninoff is literally quoting the Orthodox Mass.
enough to recognize a literal quotation. The Russian church style is
unmkistakable--how could anyone miss the Russian musical influences in
this piece?
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