Haitink on Mahler 8 - Now we know !
Tony Duggan
He talked about learning the Mahler symphonies to perform and record
them. Then he said this:
"Don't talk about number eight, because I think number eight is a sort
of monstrosity: an incredible pastiche of all sorts of things. I had to
do it in my life three times, and if I never do it again.....I will not
be sad. (Laughs)"
So now we know.
Tony Duggan, England.
dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk
Mahler CD recordings survey is at:
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/Mahler/index.html
Massimo Nespolo
"Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ao8ubm$o0c$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Just heard a fascinating interview with Bernard Haitink on BBC Radio 3.
> He talked about learning the Mahler symphonies to perform and record
> them. Then he said this:
>
> "Don't talk about number eight, because I think number eight is a sort
> of monstrosity: an incredible pastiche of all sorts of things. I had to
> do it in my life three times, and if I never do it again.....I will not
> be sad. (Laughs)"
>
> So now we know.
Actually, I remember to have read something similar a couple of years ago,
but I cannot quote the source. A (hopefully) rare example of a great
conductor unable to understand THE masterpiece written by a composer whom he
is supposed to be a specialist (uhm... do I need a "of" in this relativve
clause? Unsure.......)
--
_______________________________________________________
Massimo Nespolo (now in France)
(for private replies, remove NOSPAM)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahler/
John Wilson
<massimo...@NOSPAMwanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>"Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ao8ubm$o0c$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Just heard a fascinating interview with Bernard Haitink on BBC Radio 3.
>> He talked about learning the Mahler symphonies to perform and record
>> them. Then he said this:
>>
>> "Don't talk about number eight, because I think number eight is a sort
>> of monstrosity: an incredible pastiche of all sorts of things. I had to
>> do it in my life three times, and if I never do it again.....I will not
>> be sad. (Laughs)"
>>
>> So now we know.
>
>Actually, I remember to have read something similar a couple of years ago,
>but I cannot quote the source. A (hopefully) rare example of a great
>conductor unable to understand THE masterpiece written by a composer whom he
>is supposed to be a specialist (uhm... do I need a "of" in this relativve
>clause? Unsure.......)
One thing about today's conductors I just don't understand...If a
conductor does not feel he "understands" or has sympathy with a piece
of music why does he feel he must perform and record it just because
he plays other works by the same composer. It was much better in the
"old" days when people like Walter, Klemperer, Furtwangler, Toscanini,
etc. didn't perform and record the complete works of the entire
standard repertoire and kept to the works they loved most.
I had the Haitink M8...detested it and gave it away. Now I know why.
John
Tony Duggan
John Wilson <j...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3da827a3...@news.earthlink.net...
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2002 13:15:27 +0200, "Massimo Nespolo"
> <massimo...@NOSPAMwanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> >news:ao8ubm$o0c$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >> Just heard a fascinating interview with Bernard Haitink on BBC Radio 3.
> >> He talked about learning the Mahler symphonies to perform and record
> >> them. Then he said this:
> >>
> >> "Don't talk about number eight, because I think number eight is a sort
> >> of monstrosity: an incredible pastiche of all sorts of things. I had
to
> >> do it in my life three times, and if I never do it again.....I will not
> >> be sad. (Laughs)"
> >>
> >> So now we know.
> >
> >Actually, I remember to have read something similar a couple of years
ago,
> >but I cannot quote the source. A (hopefully) rare example of a great
> >conductor unable to understand THE masterpiece written by a composer whom
he
> >is supposed to be a specialist (uhm... do I need a "of" in this relativve
> >clause? Unsure.......)
>
> One thing about today's conductors I just don't understand...If a
> conductor does not feel he "understands" or has sympathy with a piece
> of music why does he feel he must perform and record it just because
> he plays other works by the same composer.
Hear hear, say I.
> I had the Haitink M8...detested it and gave it away. Now I know why.
The impression he gave in the interview was that he only recorded it because
he had to to make up the cycle.
--
Patrick McGuire
<massimo...@NOSPAMwanadoo.fr> wrote:
>
>"Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:ao8ubm$o0c$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Just heard a fascinating interview with Bernard Haitink on BBC Radio 3.
>> He talked about learning the Mahler symphonies to perform and record
>> them. Then he said this:
>>
>> "Don't talk about number eight, because I think number eight is a sort
>> of monstrosity: an incredible pastiche of all sorts of things. I had to
>> do it in my life three times, and if I never do it again.....I will not
>> be sad. (Laughs)"
>>
>> So now we know.
I guess this explains why he hasn't recorded it with the BPO on
Phillips as part of his complete cycle, which from the sound of this
is not going to be complete after all.
I do have his ACO performance from 1971 and I am fond of it, although
it is not one of my favorites. There are some wonderful playing from
the orchestra, especially at the coda of the first movement.
Patrick McGuire
Stockton, CA
pmcgu...@attbi.com
Jan Depondt
"Patrick McGuire" <Pmcgu...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3da83dec....@netnews.attbi.com...
|
| I guess this explains why he hasn't recorded it with the BPO on
| Phillips as part of his complete cycle, which from the sound of this
| is not going to be complete after all.
Wasn't it Philips (or Universal or whatever) that has stopped that "cycle"?
--
Jan Depondt
____________________________
mail: jdptATwanadoo.nl
Jan Depondt
|
|
| The impression he gave in the interview was that he only recorded it because
| he had to to make up the cycle.
|
Couldn't that be something he had to do because of a contract?
Arthur La Porta
I am glad that Haitink recorded that grotesque monstrosity even though
he hated it. Without the complete cycle we would not have all of the
other Haitink/RCO recordings in a convenient and cost-effective
package. I have several Mahler cycles, and I have never been tempted to
listen to the "8" from any of them. (I made it about 30 seconds into
the Solti/CSO, but that was the best I could do.)
HenryFogel
>>Actually, I remember to have read something similar a couple of years ago,
>>but I cannot quote the source. A (hopefully) rare example of a great
>>conductor unable to understand THE masterpiece written by a composer whom he
>>is supposed to be a specialist (uhm... do I need a "of" in this relativve
>>clause? Unsure.......)
>
>One thing about today's conductors I just don't understand...If a
>conductor does not feel he "understands" or has sympathy with a piece
>of music why does he feel he must perform and record it just because
>he plays other works by the same composer. It was much better in the
>"old" days when people like Walter, Klemperer, Furtwangler, Toscanini,
>etc. didn't perform and record the complete works of the entire
>standard repertoire and kept to the works they loved most.
>
>I had the Haitink M8...detested it and gave it away. Now I know why.
>
>John
>
Not all conductors feel that way - there are conductors who simply will not do
works that they don't respond to -- in some cases it is works within the canon
of a composer whose other works they conduct, in other cases it is entire
composers' outputs that they don't respond to. And there are conductors who
constantly re-examine this too. Barenboim, with whom I work, is a good example
- he does some Mahler symphonies but not others, because he just doesn't feel
he fully comprehends them. He is about to do his first Sibelius Symphony this
year (No. 5), have studied it and finding that he liked it far more than he had
in the past.
Bernstein was another one who stayed away from works he didn't like; He did
Bruckner 9 a few times, because he responded to it; No. 6 once, I think - but
didn't do the other Bruckner symphonies because he didn't care for them. He
also did some of the Shostakovich symphonies thrillingly, but others he
wouldn't touch.
I agree that conductors should lead music in which they believe, passionately.
That is the only way they'll "sell" the music.
Henry Fogel
David Wake
> I am glad that Haitink recorded that grotesque monstrosity even though
> he hated it. Without the complete cycle we would not have all of the
> other Haitink/RCO recordings in a convenient and cost-effective
> package. I have several Mahler cycles, and I have never been tempted to
> listen to the "8" from any of them. (I made it about 30 seconds into
> the Solti/CSO, but that was the best I could do.)
>
If you've only heard the first 30 seconds from one performance, how
can you be so sure that that it's the music, and not that performance,
that you dislike? If you've heard other, non-cyclic performances,
what were they?
David
Massimo Nespolo
"Arthur La Porta" <al...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:3DA8625D...@cornell.edu...
>
> I am glad that Haitink recorded that grotesque monstrosity even though
> he hated it. Without the complete cycle we would not have all of the
> other Haitink/RCO recordings in a convenient and cost-effective
> package. I have several Mahler cycles, and I have never been tempted to
> listen to the "8" from any of them. (I made it about 30 seconds into
> the Solti/CSO, but that was the best I could do.)
This is something I really cannot understand....
I can accept people who do not like Mahler - after all I do not like some
composers who are instead in the heart of others (Mozart, Sibelius,
Scribain, Schumann...).
But when even "Mahlerites of proved faith" state their love for "everything
Mahler wrote but the 8th" I am just puzzled. Mahler himself defined his
eight "the greatest thing I have ever written" (quotation from memory, excat
words may differ a bit..) The 8th represents, IMVHO, the apex and the
apotheosis of all the spritirual-symphonic journey he did from the very
beginning of his composing, and the "conditio sine qua non" for the start of
the next, imore intmistic period (dLvdE, 9th and 10th). It contains
everything: from the glory of the "paradise" in the "Veni Creator Spiritus"
to the mystical meditation in the orchestral interlude, from the deeply
moving prayer of Doctor Marianus (whether what's sung is a prayer or not
doesn't matteir, it much sounds like that) to the sweet invocation to "God"
by the off-stage soprano, from the melancolic melodhy of the harmonium to
the glorious finale introduced by choir in crescendo... A masterpiece,
perhaps "the" masterpiece. In almost all the other symponies by Mahler you
can perhaps find some imperfect parts, but the eight is simply perfect, a
dialogue with "God", the arrival point of a long journey. How can a
Mahlerite not love the 8th remains a mystery, to me....
Mark Stenroos
> > >conductor unable to understand THE masterpiece written by a composer whom
> he
> > >is supposed to be a specialist (uhm... do I need a "of" in this relativve
> > >clause? Unsure.......)
> >
> > One thing about today's conductors I just don't understand...If a
> > conductor does not feel he "understands" or has sympathy with a piece
> > of music why does he feel he must perform and record it just because
> > he plays other works by the same composer.
>
Haitink is not unique in this. I'd venture to guess that ALL musicians
play and sometimes record music for which they feel absolutely no
sympathy or connection. Early in one's career, one is forced to
perform many works that fall into this category. The need for money is
a real motivator!
I see nothing wrong with Haitink recording the Mahler 8 to complete
the cycle he did for Philips. It certainly makes commerical sense.
Plenty of conductors are forced to make trade-offs in their recording
careers. Quite possibly, Haitink would have preferred not recording
more than 3 to 5 of the Mahelr symphonies but was told by Philips that
it was all or nothing. With the Concertgebouw at his disposal, he may
have figured "what the hell, they'll play it fine, and I'll escape the
bullet. "
And who knows, maybe he felt he'd "grow into" the piece over time but
didn't. Most of us spend plenty of time in this NG bashing certain
conductors who we aver have "no sympathy" for a particular piece. At
least Haitink has seen clear to fess up about the Mahler 8.
Personally, I sort of agree with his assessment. I wouldn't consider
the 8th Mahler's masterpiece. I'd give that laurel to the 9th. The 8th
happens to be my least favorite Mahler Symphony. I wouldn't dismiss it
out of hand as does Haitink, but it is his most over-the-top work.
That's why it works so well in Lenny's hands.
I think that, in the final analysis, it comes down to the money and
having a recording contract. Robert Shaw once told me that he had to
do a lot of "commercially viable" discs for RCA as trade-offs for
getting to record the Mass in b Minor or the Messiah. At least in
Haitink's case, HIS trade-off was recording the 8th, rather than a bon
bon disc of Shania Twain covers.
horizon
> he hated it. Without the complete cycle we would not have all of the
> other Haitink/RCO recordings in a convenient and cost-effective
> package. I have several Mahler cycles, and I have never been tempted to
> listen to the "8" from any of them. (I made it about 30 seconds into
> the Solti/CSO, but that was the best I could do.)
To each his own, I guess. I love Mahler 8 and I suspect that I always will.
I don't pretend that it's "great" music, but it's music that I always find
inspiring, and hence a great listen. And the literary conception behind the
piece even speaks to me (of course, I used to spend lots of time in
bookstores looking for neat modern English translations of Faust, Part II).
But I think this brings up a key element for me in conducting Mahler. The
conductors I have the greatest problem with in Mahler are ones who run away
from the man behind the music, who seem embrassed by his emotionality or
metaphysical concerns. And the conductors I love are those who take Mahler
the man at his word, or like Lenny (to borrow a phrase from Emeril Lagasse),
"kick it up a notch."
Matt C
Simon Roberts
> conductor does not feel he "understands" or has sympathy with a piece
> of music why does he feel he must perform and record it just because
> he plays other works by the same composer. It was much better in the
> "old" days when people like Walter, Klemperer, Furtwangler, Toscanini,
> etc. didn't perform and record the complete works of the entire
> standard repertoire and kept to the works they loved most.
>
> I had the Haitink M8...detested it and gave it away. Now I know why.
Maybe - but does Haitink feel the same way about no 2? His recording of
that is just as bad. A performer's caring for a piece music is no
guarantee that it will be a good performance....
Simon
Bloom
<sd...@pobox.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>Maybe - but does Haitink feel the same way about no 2? His recording of
>that is just as bad. A performer's caring for a piece music is no
>guarantee that it will be a good performance....
>
>Simon
>
Exactly. I love Mahler's 2nd symphony, but I doubt anyone would want
to hear me conduct it. ;-)
Bill Pittman
henry...@aol.com (HenryFogel) wrote:
> I agree that conductors should lead music in which they believe,
> passionately.
> That is the only way they'll "sell" the music.
Do you suppose that relatively compact (in a manner of speaking, in this
case!) groupings like the Mahler symphonies encourage "complete" sets
because it's more feasible to do a cycle of 9 symphonies than one of 41
or 104?
Arthur La Porta
>
>
> Exactly. I love Mahler's 2nd symphony, but I doubt anyone would want
> to hear me conduct it. ;-)
Too bad a certain millionaire didn't have the same thought...
Ray Hall
news:y31q9.4144$Up6.1...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Don't you mean "kitsch it up a notch", with all due respect to Lenny whom I
admire greatly.
<g>
As for the 8th, on a personal note, I have never ever really got into the
work. I've struggled through it a few times, but maybe I should read more
about the sources Mahler used for his inspiration, and give it another go. I
did find one hushed passage on the strings quite stunningly beautiful (by
Kubelik), but where in the work I couldn't say right now.
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
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Curtis Croulet
Who knows, maybe someday I'll love it, but not now. There's
some interesting stuff in it, and it's worth an occasional
listen, but for me, Mahler's greatest work is the Ninth.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
Ray Hall
news:williepitt-7A6B8...@news.mybizz.net...
Give credit to Karajan, for admitting he didn't comprehend, and neither did
Ormandy, the Sibelius 3rd. Beecham disliked some of the LvB symphonies, and
as far as Haitink is concerned, he once said, and to quote him from memory,
that he would allow himself only one half of the year for Mahler. He found
the music too stressful and too depressing to become totally immersed in it.
He found it necessary, psychologically, to separate himself from Mahler for
a while.
As for recording the 8th, then he was probably contracted to do it, and
makes sense from the marketability point of view of a complete Haitink cycle
being available. I bet a pound to a penny, that some conductors loathe the
LvB 9th, but they end up recording it nonetheless, in order to complete a
cycle. It could, of course, be any one or more of the others, before I get
jumped on.
Arthur La Porta
chorus and orchestra. I love all of his music for orchestra, and with
help of my remote can enjoy those symphonies which have choral horrors
but redeming movements for orchestra (2, 3) but the 8th, only the eject
button suffices!
Curtis Croulet
didn't like Bruckner's Eighth, and to explain what he didn't
like about it, he played the entire symphony from memory on
the piano.
HenryFogel
>From: "Curtis Croulet" curt...@pe.net
>Date: 10/12/2002 10:18 PM Central Daylight Time
>Message-id: <_B5q9.505$BiL3.6...@news2.randori.com>
>
>I heard a story that Bernstein was telling somebody that he
>didn't like Bruckner's Eighth, and to explain what he didn't
>like about it, he played the entire symphony from memory on
>the piano.
>--
>Curtis Croulet
>Temecula, California
True story - I believe I'm the one who told it; it happened in Japan in 1979,
on a tour with the NYPhil, after a concert and after he had signed autographs
backstage - I ventured to suggest to him that he would perform the Bruckner 8th
wonderfully. He told me what an awful piece it was (he used more colorful
language), and when I protested, he sat down and played through it (omitting
the repeat of the scherzo), pointing out what he saw as its flaws. I was
stunned that he would know so thoroughly a piece he didn't even like!
Henry Fogel
Tansal Arnas
> I heard a story that Bernstein was telling somebody that he
> didn't like Bruckner's Eighth, and to explain what he didn't
> like about it, he played the entire symphony from memory on
> the piano.
That's very impressive. I'd like to know what some of his explanations
were. The Bruckner 8 is my favorite work of his and, I believe, his
masterpiece.
Tansal
Massimo Nespolo
"Curtis Croulet" <curt...@pe.net> wrote in message
news:%y5q9.495$BiL3.5...@news2.randori.com...
> I'm in agreement with Ray's comments re Mahler's Eighth.
> Who knows, maybe someday I'll love it, but not now. There's
> some interesting stuff in it, and it's worth an occasional
> listen, but for me, Mahler's greatest work is the Ninth.
> --
Maybe you simply like to attend a live performance. If well played, that's a
life-chaging experience.
Curtis Croulet
sound right on recordings, even when played on the finest
audio equipment. The only recording of Mahler's
Resurrection that comes close to the right effect, IMHO, is
on a DTS demo DVD, where the last part of the finale is
conducted by Myung-Whun Chung in Paris. If a similar
surround-sound Eighth were to come along, I'd definitely
want to hear it.
Curtis Croulet
I'm certain he attributed it to you. It's one of those
stories that one wants to be true.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
Mark Perlman
other works. I just seems to meander on and on. I wallows in massive
sound, but in trying to be profound, it comes up short. Other works simply
ARE profound. He seems to have been trying TOO hard. Actually, I have been
to several live performances, and they all end up sounding like posing
contests for the singers, and big loud ending. People LOVE big loud
endings, and always give a standing ovation - but that doesn't make it a
successful piece. The crowd loved the 3 tenors also.
Personally, I think the long orchestra section in the middle is vintage
Mahler, but it doesn't carry over to the rest of the piece.
Mark Perlman
"Massimo Nespolo" <massimo...@NOSPAMwanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:aoa4d0$rsj$1...@wanadoo.fr...
Massimo Nespolo
> This is a good point. Large choral/orchestral works rarely
> sound right on recordings, even when played on the finest
> audio equipment. The only recording of Mahler's
> Resurrection that comes close to the right effect, IMHO, is
> on a DTS demo DVD, where the last part of the finale is
> conducted by Myung-Whun Chung in Paris.
Have you tried the Ozawa / Saito Kinen / Sony recorded January 2000? It's
available also in SACD. It that one doesn't work for you, I'm afrain none
will ever...
> If a similar
> surround-sound Eighth were to come along, I'd definitely
> want to hear it.
Perhaps we need to wait for a new technology, able to capture the 8th as if
we were in a true hall. BTW: my next live 8th is approaching:8 November in
Baden-Baden, Michael Gielen. It will be my 6th live M8. The best way to
celebrate my birthday, a few days later ;-)
Matthew Silverstein
> Perhaps we need to wait for a new technology, able to capture the 8th as if
> we were in a true hall. BTW: my next live 8th is approaching:8 November in
> Baden-Baden, Michael Gielen. It will be my 6th live M8. The best way to
> celebrate my birthday, a few days later ;-)
Wow. I wish I could be there for that!
Matty
Ray Hall
news:B9CE8797.15457%tan...@hotmail.com...
Each to their own, and perceptions do change with time about certain works.
I'd actually tend to agree with Lenny with regard to the Bruckner 8th. Apart
from a glorious slow movement, the whole piece is one of the most garbled
pieces Bruckner ever wrote to my ears. Recently, my increasing admiration
for the 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 9th has easily outpaced my initial love for the
8th. Despite the fact that I own quite a few 8ths, I wouldn't place it
anywhere near my favourite Bruckner symphony. Just above the 4th maybe.
Bernstein, as per usual, knew a few things. Most remarkable is the talent to
reproduce the 8th on the piano. Extraordinary, and hardly believable. It
would have been *very* interesting to have heard what Lenny said were the
defects he found in the 8th. Now if only I could have been a fly on top of
the pianner.
Curtis Croulet
knockout demo in an audio shop, then maybe I'll spring for
Curtis Croulet
Bruckner Eighth, even in the corrupt Haas edition (well, not
his 10 bars). Of course, I'm the guy who lately dissed
Brahms Piano Concerto No. 2.
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: Of course, I'm the guy who lately dissed Brahms Piano Concerto No. 2.
If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone in your dislike.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?"
A. Brain
news:20021012135821...@mb-co.aol.com...
> I agree that conductors should lead music in which they believe,
passionately.
> That is the only way they'll "sell" the music.
How about soloists who play stuff they don't like? For example,
I suppose that most cellists are going to be expected
to play the big concertos, like the Dvorak and the Elgar, and how
could anyone dislike those?
But, for example, in the liner notes of that six CD set,
"Les Introuvables de Jaqueline DuPre", she is described as
disliking one of the pieces in the set (has to be one of the
minor works included, I guess; maddeningly, the notes
don't say which.) This in connection with her being able
to play "with complete conviction works for which she felt
no very great enthusiasm".
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: Perhaps we need to wait for a new technology, able to capture the 8th as if
: we were in a true hall. BTW: my next live 8th is approaching:8 November in
: Baden-Baden, Michael Gielen. It will be my 6th live M8. The best way to
: celebrate my birthday, a few days later ;-)
Mahler's 8th and the Berlioz Requiem are perhaps the best (maybe the only)
arguments in favor of quadraphonic. . .
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
Ray Hall
| Oh, Ray, how can you say that :-( I love every note of the
| Bruckner Eighth, even in the corrupt Haas edition (well, not
| his 10 bars). Of course, I'm the guy who lately dissed
| Brahms Piano Concerto No. 2.
Well, dissing the Brahm's 2nd piano concerto is an even more heinous crime
to some, and one of the works of Brahms that he really gets right imo, aside
from the 4th symphony.
I reckon we must be about even Steven about this <g> Actually, I am still
waiting for the perfect Bruckner 8th, and Goodall still sticks in my mind,
although his was the first Bruckner 8th I ever heard.
Regards,
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Praetorius
> Richard Schultz wrote:
> Massimo Nespolo wrote:
>
> : Perhaps we need to wait for a new technology, able to capture the 8th as
if
> : we were in a true hall. BTW: my next live 8th is approaching:8 November
in
> : Baden-Baden, Michael Gielen. It will be my 6th live M8. The best way to
> : celebrate my birthday, a few days later ;-)
>
> Mahler's 8th and the Berlioz Requiem are perhaps the best (maybe the only)
> arguments in favor of quadraphonic. . .
>
"Gruppen" (three orchestral groups in a semicircle around the listener;
premiere
in Cologne conducted by Stockhausen, Bruno Maderna and Pierre Boulez!)
and "Carré" (for four orchestras and four choirs) by Stockhausen?
Mozart's Serenade "Notturno" for 4 orchestras in D major, K. 286 (K. 269a)?
Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.
"You are no bigger than
the things that annoy you."
Jerry Bundsen
Owen Hartnett
Brain <abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote:
We've heard what Glenn Gould did to the Mozart sonatas he disliked.
-Owen
Matthew B. Tepper
news:141020021221534943%ow...@xids.xnet:
And the Chopin Sonata #3.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Andre Yew
> This is a good point. Large choral/orchestral works rarely
> sound right on recordings, even when played on the finest
> audio equipment. The only recording of Mahler's
> Resurrection that comes close to the right effect, IMHO, is
> on a DTS demo DVD, where the last part of the finale is
> conducted by Myung-Whun Chung in Paris. If a similar
> surround-sound Eighth were to come along, I'd definitely
> want to hear it.
Curtis,
That is an impressive recording. Judging by the results of their
M1 and M6, when MTT and SFSO do M8 in multi-channel SACD, it should
surpass the DTS effort. Unfortunately, M8 will be the last piece
they record in their cycle.
--Andre
Andre Yew
> Have you tried the Ozawa / Saito Kinen / Sony recorded January 2000? It's
> available also in SACD. It that one doesn't work for you, I'm afrain none
> will ever...
Massimo,
The Ozawa recording is only 2-channel SACD.
--Andre
Brian Park
> Bloom wrote:
> >
> >
> > Exactly. I love Mahler's 2nd symphony, but I doubt anyone would want
> > to hear me conduct it. ;-)
>
> Too bad a certain millionaire didn't have the same thought...
Why? I think Kaplan's recording of the M2 is quite good.
Brian Park
Curtis Croulet
So do I.
Ramon Khalona
> "John Wilson" <j...@earthlink.net> wrote
> >
> > I had the Haitink M8...detested it and gave it away. Now I know why.
>
> Maybe - but does Haitink feel the same way about no 2? His recording of
> that is just as bad. A performer's caring for a piece music is no
> guarantee that it will be a good performance....
...or that a particular listener will like it.
RK
August Helmbright
> The impression he gave in the interview was that he only recorded it because
> he had to to make up the cycle.
"Had to?" Or wanted to, in order to pad his paycheck? What's this
fascination with recording "cycles" all about, other than marketing
boxed sets.
I have much more respect for Klemperer, who didn't like the 5th and so
didn't conduct it, for Barbirolli, who didn't like the 8th and didn't
conduct it, and for Walter, who wrote of his difficulty in
understanding the 7th and *almost never* conduced it. There are many
other examples outside Mahler and even involving crowd pleasing works
that would have good for conductors' incomes -- like Toscanini, who
didn't like the very popular Shostakovich 5th and Berlioz' Symphonie
Fantastique despite several attempts to "get" the works, and therefore
never conducted them.
Even though I don't share any of their musical tastes in these
matters, I've never felt particularly disappointed at any of these
older conductors' choices. My attitude has always been that if they
didn't like or understand the works in question, their performances
probably wouldn't have been much good anyway.
Roland van Gaalen
news:12cbb4d6.02101...@posting.google.com...
> "Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<ao9ab7$ek1$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > The impression he gave in the interview was that he only recorded it
because
> > he had to to make up the cycle.
>
> "Had to?" Or wanted to, in order to pad his paycheck?
While this may (or may not) be the most plausible motive from your own
introspective point of view, could it be that other parties were involved in
this decision, such as the members and management of the orchestra and the
record company?
> What's this
> fascination with recording "cycles" all about, other than marketing
> boxed sets.
Why "fascination"? Could it be that there are, or at least appear to be,
sound business reasons in some cases?
>
> I have much more respect for Klemperer, who didn't like the 5th and so
> didn't conduct it, for Barbirolli, who didn't like the 8th and didn't
> conduct it, and for Walter, who wrote of his difficulty in
> understanding the 7th and *almost never* conduced it. There are many
> other examples outside Mahler and even involving crowd pleasing works
> that would have good for conductors' incomes -- like Toscanini, who
> didn't like the very popular Shostakovich 5th and Berlioz' Symphonie
> Fantastique despite several attempts to "get" the works, and therefore
> never conducted them.
>
> Even though I don't share any of their musical tastes in these
> matters, I've never felt particularly disappointed at any of these
> older conductors' choices. My attitude has always been that if they
> didn't like or understand the works in question, their performances
> probably wouldn't have been much good anyway.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
E-mail: R.P.vanGaalenATchello.nl (replace AT by @)
August Helmbright
> "August Helmbright" <augusthe...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:12cbb4d6.02101...@posting.google.com...
> > "Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:<ao9ab7$ek1$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> > > The impression he gave in the interview was that he only recorded it
> because
> > > he had to to make up the cycle.
> >
> > "Had to?" Or wanted to, in order to pad his paycheck?
>
> While this may (or may not) be the most plausible motive from your own
> introspective point of view, could it be that other parties were involved in
> this decision, such as the members and management of the orchestra and the
> record company?
OK, maybe my point was made a little too strongly, but it remains that
if Haitink really dislikes the 8th as much as he now says, he should
have resisted the pressure. His recording has been panned by quite a
few listeners and critics, which is what would be expected if his
heart wasn't in it.
> > What's this
> > fascination with recording "cycles" all about, other than marketing
> > boxed sets.
>
> Why "fascination"? Could it be that there are, or at least appear to be,
> sound business reasons in some cases?
>
Once again, is it good business to put out a recorded performance that
doesn't show you anywhere near your best, just to complete a "cycle"?
Klemperer, who was not indifferent to business and commercial
considerations, nevertheless held his ground in artistic matters that
were important to him, such as refusing to perform the Siegfried-Idyll
with a full orchestra, and refusing to budge on his admittedly nutty
cuts in the finale of Bruckner's 8th.
Chris Martin
symphonies after 6 are less interesting. When I took a survey college
class on the symphony, we studied 1,2,4 and 5. In Preston Stedman's
book, the Symphony, there is a quote by a Mahler scholar who points
out that, starting with 7, Mahler starts copying from his early
symphonies extensively, thus displaying a lack of originality.
As for 8, I don't really think of it as a real symphony, but as a
choral work. (Just as Shostakovich's 13th is really a song cycle.)
-Chris
"Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<ao8ubm$o0c$2...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
> Just heard a fascinating interview with Bernard Haitink on BBC Radio 3.
> He talked about learning the Mahler symphonies to perform and record
> them. Then he said this:
>
> "Don't talk about number eight, because I think number eight is a sort
> of monstrosity: an incredible pastiche of all sorts of things. I had to
> do it in my life three times, and if I never do it again.....I will not
> be sad. (Laughs)"
>
> So now we know.
>
> Tony Duggan, England.
> dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk
> Mahler CD recordings survey is at:
> http://www.musicweb.uk.net/Mahler/index.html
ulvi
news:77f43c09.02101...@posting.google.com:
> I just heard that interview too. Anyway in my opinion, all the
> symphonies after 6 are less interesting. When I took a survey college
> class on the symphony, we studied 1,2,4 and 5. In Preston Stedman's
> book, the Symphony, there is a quote by a Mahler scholar who points
> out that, starting with 7, Mahler starts copying from his early
> symphonies extensively, thus displaying a lack of originality.
?? And the 9th is copied from which early symphony?
Ulvi
Tony Duggan
Chris Martin <chma...@mail.davidson.alumlink.com> wrote in message
news:77f43c09.02101...@posting.google.com...
> I just heard that interview too. Anyway in my opinion, all the
> symphonies after 6 are less interesting. When I took a survey college
> class on the symphony, we studied 1,2,4 and 5. In Preston Stedman's
> book, the Symphony, there is a quote by a Mahler scholar who points
> out that, starting with 7, Mahler starts copying from his early
> symphonies extensively, thus displaying a lack of originality.
And name of this "scholar" is ?????????????????????????
Mahler quotes from earlier symphonies from 3 onwards, not 6. Indeed in 1 he
quotes from an earlier song cycle. In 4 he quotes from 3 and in 5 he quotes
from 4 etc. In the first five symphonies he quotes from the Wunderhorn
songs. He does it all the time. Some "scholar" who cannot grasp the
concept of significant self-quotation. Ratrher he/she should ask what the
significance of each quotation is rather than dismiss it as lack of
originality.
Also, not bothering with the symphonies after 6 would be like reading
someone's autobiography and not bothering to read beyond half
way.
And you think Das Lied Von Der Erde is NOT INTERESTING ???????? Amazing
!!!!!
Beaver Lad
Requiem is not in fact any more of an argument for quadraphonic sound
reproduction than any other music. The four brass bands (used in the
Dies Irae and the Lacrymosa) are directed to be seated at the four
corners of the orchestra -- not at the four corners of the performing
venue.
If one respects Berlioz's seating plan, then allotting one brass band
per speaker puts one smack in the middle of the orchestra. Maybe not
the best position from which to hear any music.
==================================
In article <aoe6sj$r0k$1...@news.iucc.ac.il>, <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il>
wrote:
Massimo Nespolo
>> I just heard that interview too. Anyway in my opinion, all the
>> symphonies after 6 are less interesting. When I took a survey college
>> class on the symphony, we studied 1,2,4 and 5. In Preston Stedman's
>> book, the Symphony, there is a quote by a Mahler scholar who points
>> out that, starting with 7, Mahler starts copying from his early
>> symphonies extensively, thus displaying a lack of originality.
Award of the year for the silliest statement
>
>?? And the 9th is copied from which early symphony?
and dLvdE? And the 10th????
--
Massimo Nespolo (now in France)
remove "NOSPAM" for private replies
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahler/
Chris Martin
have the name off hand. If you find a copy of Preston Stedman's The
Symphony, though, you'll see what I'm referring to. I'll try to
remember to look him up anyway.
Regarding Das Lied, that's a song cycle, not a symphony. Regarding
borrowing, there's a difference between quoting yourself in an
interesting way, and simply rehashing earlier stuff in a trite way.
The way Mahler reuses material from 6 in 7, one almost feels like one
is hearing 6 all over again. This does not happen in the earlier
borrowings.
Another things I've found about the Wunderhorn symphonies is that they
tend to have a formally classical foundation while the later ones
tends to use an ugly eclecticism of style. As for your analogy, there
are plenty of cases where a composer's early symphonies are dull, e.g.
Tchaikovsky, Dvorak. Admittedly, Mahler's symphonies are more
autobiographical but the 6th is so tragic that it can be heard as an
ending.
-Chris
"Tony Duggan" <dug...@scribble.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:<aon50o$f18$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Mark Stenroos
there
> are plenty of cases where a composer's early symphonies are dull, e.g.
> Tchaikovsky, Dvorak. Admittedly, Mahler's symphonies are more
> autobiographical but the 6th is so tragic that it can be heard as an
> ending.
> -Chris
period. Nothing dull about it, at least in the right hands. The
Tchaik 2 falls down only in the Finale, and the Third is a wonderful
occasional piece.
As far as Dvorak, Syms 6-9 are unquestioned masterpieces. I have a
soft spot for all things Dvorak, but I find his Syms. 5 and 3 very
much under-rated. I also listen to Sym 1 more often than I probably
should. I find none of them "dull." Ditto, the early Tchaik Syms.
Mark Stenroos
Paul Goldstein
markst...@yahoo.com says...
I thought you would pipe up in this way, based on your earlier postings about
the Tchaikovsky Winter Dreams symphony. I agree with all of the above, and I
would add that Dvorak's 4th is a wonderful piece as well.
Paul Goldstein
Ray Hall
news:aoqng...@drn.newsguy.com...
The Tchaikovsky Winter Dreams is a beautiful work, and has always rated high
with me. Jansons/Oslo is very good in this work. And whilst admiring some of
the early Dvorak symphonies as well (Rowicki is good), the Bruckner
symphonies Nos 1 - 3 are much better known now, and I'd swap the 8th for the
3rd anyday. Practically my favourite Bruckner symphony at the moment.
Tintner and Rosbaud.
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
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Ray, Taree, NSW
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Tansal Arnas
> The Tchaikovsky Winter Dreams is a beautiful work, and has always rated high
> with me. Jansons/Oslo is very good in this work.
I've not heard this, but I find Markevitch/LSO to be stunning in the whole
cycle, including Manfred. Their Winter Dreams is full of flair.
> And whilst admiring some of
> the early Dvorak symphonies as well (Rowicki is good), the Bruckner
> symphonies Nos 1 - 3 are much better known now, and I'd swap the 8th for the
> 3rd anyday. Practically my favourite Bruckner symphony at the moment.
> Tintner and Rosbaud.
I hope you mean you'd rather have the 8th than the 3rd, because as it is
now, your grammar suggests the opposite.
Tansal
Ray Hall
news:B9D73B0A.15ABC%tan...@hotmail.com...
No, au contraire. My grammar suggests my thoughts <g> I may come more fully
to the 8th in time. A wonderful slow movement to be sure, but for me the 3rd
gives me a cohesiveness, and completeness as a work, (aside from the fact
that it is a glorious sounding piece anyway), that I just can't get from the
8th. Mind you, I have a lot of 8ths, but I still think the ideal 8th hasn't
been recorded yet. Furtwangler is OK, I suppose, and the last Fluffy/VPO 8th
has some good things in it, but I'm still waiting. I was reared on Goodall's
8th btw.
I do think the work is too gargantuan, even for Bruckner, to be really
honest. Were it not for the sublime movement, then it's status in Bruckner's
canon would be "iffy" imo.
Tansal Arnas
> No, au contraire. My grammar suggests my thoughts <g> I may come more fully
> to the 8th in time. A wonderful slow movement to be sure, but for me the 3rd
> gives me a cohesiveness, and completeness as a work, (aside from the fact
> that it is a glorious sounding piece anyway), that I just can't get from the
> 8th. Mind you, I have a lot of 8ths, but I still think the ideal 8th hasn't
> been recorded yet. Furtwangler is OK, I suppose, and the last Fluffy/VPO 8th
> has some good things in it, but I'm still waiting. I was reared on Goodall's
> 8th btw.
>
> I do think the work is too gargantuan, even for Bruckner, to be really
> honest. Were it not for the sublime movement, then it's status in Bruckner's
> canon would be "iffy" imo.
Have you heard Wand/BPO? US street date was Oct 8. Out of my sixteen
recordings of the work, I'd take this one to my desert island - or maybe
Wand/NDRSO/Lubeck, but you'll have much less trouble getting the BPO disc.
Tansal
Ray Hall
Thanks for the tip. I haven't heard much by Wand, but I'll check out his
8th.
Chris Martin
"In the seventh symphony, composed during the summer holidays of 1904
and 1905, an alarming thing becomes apparent for the first time in
Mahler's career as a composer: the self-repetition which was destined
to mar the last two symphonies and to weaken their artistic impact.
Not only do the outer movements reveal striking similarities with the
parallel movement of V, but the primeval ruggedness of the
introductory tenor-horn solo re-echoes the solo trombone in the first
movement of III. The first principal theme of the movement is
rhythmically all but identical with its opposite number in VI. The
first "Nachtmusik" works almost throughout with thematic matter
already used in the last Wunderhorn songs."
Redlich, H.F. Bruckner and Mahler, pp. 203-3. Quoted with permission
of J.M. Dent & Sons. Ltd.
What he is saying is not that the last symphonies are crap, but merely
that they are flawed. I tend to agree. Your mileage may vary.
-Chris
chma...@mail.davidson.alumlink.com (Chris Martin) wrote in message news:<77f43c09.02101...@posting.google.com>...
Skip Freeman
> Owen Hartnett <ow...@xids.xnet> wrote in
> news:141020021221534943%ow...@xids.xnet:
>
> And the Chopin Sonata #3.
A masterperformance!
-Skip
Matthew B. Tepper
news:178e088.02102...@posting.google.com:
The sort of "masterperformance" that a champion dog produces from out of
its rear end.
horizon
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:apnb2...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> > A masterperformance!
>
> The sort of "masterperformance" that a champion dog produces from out of
> its rear end.
Skip made it into my killfile due to his astonishing contributions to the
Yankee newsgroup. He's nothing if not consistent.
Matt C
Skip Freeman
> sk...@cutey.com (Skip Freeman) wrote in
> news:178e088.02102...@posting.google.com:
>
> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy @earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:<aof49...@enews3.newsguy.com>...
> >> Owen Hartnett <ow...@xids.xnet> wrote in
> >> news:141020021221534943%ow...@xids.xnet:
> >> > We've heard what Glenn Gould did to the Mozart sonatas he disliked.
> >>
> >> And the Chopin Sonata #3.
> >
> > A masterperformance!
>
> The sort of "masterperformance" that a champion dog produces from out of
> its rear end.
Since there is simply no accounting for your taste, I can't for the
life of me figure out from the above if you like Gould's rendition or
not.
Perhaps you can clue us in with some snappy repartee?
-Skip