Minnesota Orchestra lock-out

Dufus

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Oct 4, 2012, 11:36:01 PM10/4/12

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And trouble elsewhere this Fall :

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/music/172440831.html?page=2&c=y

A view form Europe :

http://www.artsjournal.com/slippeddisc/2012/10/why-european-maestros-despair-of-us-orchs.html

Leading US orchestra minimum salaries :

http://www.startribune.com/local/171948761.html

SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT

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Oct 5, 2012, 7:39:48 AM10/5/12

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Hmmm. Although it's a fallacy to compare musically skilled workers in
orchestras with ordinary workers, following Bruno (in an older thread), in
real life they turn out to be as vulnerable to changes as any other worker,
elite or not. The world ignores our private logic, so it seems.

Henk

Frank Berger

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Oct 5, 2012, 8:41:57 AM10/5/12

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"HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:506ec6a4$0$6864$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...

In other words, you *can* (and did) compare musically skilled workers in
orchestras with "ordinary" workers.

SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT

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Oct 5, 2012, 3:52:24 PM10/5/12

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They do so themselves, as members of a labour union, fighting for higher
wages and more fringe benefits with managment - and I cannot see why not.
The production of a Mahler symphony is, in essence, organized in the same
way as the production of a Big Mac.

Henk

Henk

Dufus

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Oct 5, 2012, 4:18:29 PM10/5/12

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>On Oct 5, 2:51 pm, "HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote:

> The production of a Mahler symphony is, in essence, organized in the same
> way as the production of a Big Mac.

Agreed, and you dont get much for your money with either.

Gerard

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Oct 5, 2012, 4:54:23 PM10/5/12

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Dufus <steve...@gmail.com> typed:

Proves my point again.

Frank Berger

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Oct 5, 2012, 5:44:05 PM10/5/12

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"HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote in message

news:506f3a27$0$6871$e4fe...@news2.news.xs4all.nl...

Then why did you say "Although it's a fallacy to compare musically skilled
workers in orchestras with ordinary workers......?"

SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT

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Oct 5, 2012, 6:27:18 PM10/5/12

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My mistake! I believed 'following' to mean 'referring to'.

Henk

basnperson

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Oct 5, 2012, 7:23:35 PM10/5/12

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unless you have a glass of wine during both activities:-)))

AB

O

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Oct 5, 2012, 7:55:25 PM10/5/12

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In article <6a968$506f4904$5356543a$29...@cache70.multikabel.net>,

You get lots of sesame seeds.

-Owen

Kip Williams

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Oct 5, 2012, 8:47:56 PM10/5/12

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O wrote, On 10/5/12 7:55 PM:

Mmmm. Sesame seeds.

Kip W

Frank Berger

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Oct 7, 2012, 3:07:35 AM10/7/12

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"Dufus" <steve...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:845c982b-35a5-48e9...@v15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

You mean *you* don't get much for *your* money. Millions of other people
disagree.

Herman

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Oct 7, 2012, 3:38:59 AM10/7/12

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Le vendredi 5 octobre 2012 21:51:30 UTC+2, HvT a écrit :

>
> The production of a Mahler symphony is, in essence, organized in the same
>
> way as the production of a Big Mac.
>
>
>
> Henk
>

It's a meaningless analogy. You might as well say taking a crap is organized in the same way.

Musicians in a symphony orchestra are highly skilled professionals who have been working at their skill for twenty years at least before they join a professional orchestra.

MacDonalds workers typically have minimal training. No one thinks at age eight, "later I want to flip burgers, and I want to do that for as long as I can."

Oscar

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Oct 7, 2012, 5:11:34 AM10/7/12

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On Sunday, October 7, 2012 12:38:59 AM, Herman wrote:
>
> It's a meaningless analogy. You might as well say taking a crap is organized in the same way.

Thus spake 'union of uno' hermdog, who critiques crap (or craps critiques) for a living but won't give us a taste of it. Benefits? Seeing his name in print.

SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT

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Oct 7, 2012, 5:44:25 AM10/7/12

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Herman wrote:
> Le vendredi 5 octobre 2012 21:51:30 UTC+2, HvT a �crit :

I don't see your point. Are those taking a crap (to use your example)
members of a labour union fighting for higher wages and more benefits and
are they paid according to skill and talent?

Those who work in one of the great US orchestras as well as those who work
in a MacDonald are paid according to skill and talent. The former earn
minimally $ 78.000. The maximum salary of a MacDonald's store manager is $
90.000. They start with $ 20.000. Those who 'flip burgers' earn maximally $
7.03/hr. (Glassdoor).

Henk

SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT

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Oct 7, 2012, 5:46:23 AM10/7/12

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MUST BE $ 7.65/hr. The cashier earns $ 7.03/hr.

> Henk

Dufus

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Oct 7, 2012, 2:25:10 PM10/7/12

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>On Oct 4, 10:36 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:

From today's Minneapolis Star Tribune :

"A long view shows the business model in Minnesota relying more
heavily on investment income. In 1962, ticket revenue accounted for 57
percent of expenses. Contributions figured for 39 percent and
withdrawals from reserves covered 3 percent. In fiscal 2011, ticket
sales made up 22 percent of expenses; contributions were 30 percent
and withdrawals from investments covered 39 percent...The conversation
needs to move up and out of how much money are we going to pay people
to the challenge of how the whole field becomes part of American life
in the 21st century."

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/172978221.html ( Entire
article )

Oscar

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Oct 7, 2012, 4:41:00 PM10/7/12

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Btw, managers at In 'N Out burger restaurants here on the West Coast (still family-owned) earn over $100,000 annual salary with excellent benefits package.

Dufus

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Oct 8, 2012, 8:37:46 AM10/8/12

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On Oct 7, 3:41 pm, Oscar <oscaredwardwilliam...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Btw, managers at In 'N Out burger restaurants here on the West Coast (still family-owned) earn over $100,000 annual salary with excellent benefits package.

An BLS / RIAA discussion on the future :

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/have-we-lost-41-percent-of-our-musicians-depends-on-how-you-the-riaa-count/

Oscar

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Oct 8, 2012, 11:27:04 AM10/8/12

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On Monday, October 8, 2012 5:37:46 AM, Dufus wrote:
>
> An BLS / RIAA discussion on the future :
>
> http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/10/have-we-lost-41-percent-of-our-musicians-depends-on-how-you-the-riaa-count/

According to that article, U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, Employment Projections program says:

<< The number of people attending musical performances, such as orchestra, opera, and rock concerts, is expected to increase from 2010 to 2020. As a result, more musicians and singers will be needed to play at these performances. >>

Really, US Government, opera in the USA is a growth industry?? Electronic Dance Music (EDM) is the only 'growth' sector in the live concert business right now — its fan base is young and diverse. Most reading this list would not consideri it 'music', either. Opera: not growing, shrinking, fan base dying off. Attendance ten years hence will not be requiring more singers and pit musicians.
P.S. Saw Don Giovanni two nights ago at LA Opera. Very, very good. Ildebrando D'Arcangelo is the real deal. He's the Don on the new Nezet-Seguin recording, too, btw. http://tiny.cc/468ulw

Dufus

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Oct 8, 2012, 2:24:04 PM10/8/12

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>On Oct 4, 10:36 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And trouble elsewhere this Fall :

Indianapolis still locked out :
http://news.yahoo.com/indianapolis-symphony-cancels-5th-week-concerts-124906770.html

But then, Summertime is over.

Dufus

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Oct 19, 2012, 8:50:01 AM10/19/12

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>On Oct 8, 1:24 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Minnesota still locked out, even as Skrowaczewski returns ; St.Paul
Chamber Orchestra facing lock-out Sunday :

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/music/174876781.html?page=1&c=y

Long Winter in the Twin Cities. With its 4 new sports stadiums. All
the women may be good looking and the children above average, but the
arts still the poor relations ?

Dufus

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Oct 30, 2012, 4:33:50 PM10/30/12

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>On Oct 4, 10:36 pm, Dufus <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And trouble elsewhere this Fall :

Even in Iran : http://news.yahoo.com/musicians-irans-national-orchestra-disbanded-133557208.html