Re: Okay, here's the list of the Top 100 French works

[mandryka]

97. Messiaen Twenty gazes on the Christ-child

Interesting. Any bilinguals around? Is gaze a good translation of
regard? Does regard imply a long lingering intense look?

[Dave Cook]

I thought the translation was 'Give my regards to young Jesus!'.

Dave Cook

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

Terry wrote:

> 10. Saint-Saëns Carnival of the Animals
> 9. Ravel Bolero
> 8. Canteloube Songs of the Auvergne
> 7. Berlioz Symphonie fantastique
> 6. Debussy Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune
> 5. Bizet The Pearl Fishers
> 4. Satie Gymnopédies
> 3. Fauré Requiem in D minor, Op 48
> 2. Saint-Saëns Symphony No 3 in C minor, Op 78
> 1. Bizet Carmen

An interesting 1-10, in particular the Satie (works I once loved to play but
hated - and still hate - to listen to). Although I'm not a fan of Bizet and
Berlioz I can understand why they are so popular.

Henk

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

1.. Regard du Père
2.. Regard de l'étoile
3.. L'échange
4.. Regard de la Vierge
5.. Regard du Fils sur le Fils
6.. Par Lui tout a été fait
7.. Regard de la Croix
8.. Regard des hauteurs
9.. Regard du temps
10.. Regard de l'Esprit de joie
11.. Première communion de la Vierge
12.. La parole toute puissante
13.. Noël
14.. Regard des Anges
15.. Le baiser de l'enfant-Jésus
16.. Regard des prophètes, des bergers et des Mages
17.. Regard du silence
18.. Regard de l'Onction terrible
19.. Je dors, mais mon cour veille
20.. Regard de l'Église d'amour
Wiki prefers 'contemplation'. 'Gaze' isn't IMHO a very inspired translation.

Henk

[Kip Williams]

Some interesting inclusions, along with the inevitable disappointments
(The Ravel Left Hand at only #62?) I was particularly cheered to see
Hahn's "A Cloris" on the list. I always get a little boost from that
song's tranquility.

The Franck "Cello sonata"? A draggy transposition made the list? Weird.
I'd sooner throw in a violin and give the slot to his first trio.

And I'd have the Poulenc trio (or is it a sonata?) for piano, oboe, and
bassoon than the sextet.

But these are fleeting impressions in a list I mostly would cross the
sidewalk to avoid chatting with anyway. Certainly, there are a lot of
things I like on it, but even I feel superior to it.


Kip W

[Lawrence Chalmers]

I'd include Roussel's 3&4 Symphonies, Bacchus
&Ariane
Duruffle Requiem
Debussy L'Martyre & Estampes & Images for Orchestra
Dukas La Peri

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:Bczfs.30168$e74....@newsfe13.iad:

> The Franck "Cello sonata"? A draggy transposition made the list? Weird.
> I'd sooner throw in a violin and give the slot to his first trio.

The Franck Violin Sonata actually played on a (*gasp!*) violin is one of
those things that seem to be getting harder and harder to find today, along
with potato-flavored potato chips, and iced-tea-flavored iced tea.

Hasn't The Divine Martha recorded the accompaniment several times, including
a few with (*gasp!) violin, and others with cello, flute, or what have you.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Kip Williams]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote, On 10/17/12 11:56 AM:

> Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:Bczfs.30168$e74....@newsfe13.iad:
>
>> The Franck "Cello sonata"? A draggy transposition made the list? Weird.
>> I'd sooner throw in a violin and give the slot to his first trio.
>
> The Franck Violin Sonata actually played on a (*gasp!*) violin is one of
> those things that seem to be getting harder and harder to find today, along
> with potato-flavored potato chips, and iced-tea-flavored iced tea.
>
> Hasn't The Divine Martha recorded the accompaniment several times, including
> a few with (*gasp!) violin, and others with cello, flute, or what have you.

Cello and flute are the ones I've run into. Cello just sounds wrong,
leadfooted. I don't remember the flute one.

Wu-Ming Gan has done a darn good job with Cortot's solo piano version.
It's a free download at the Piano Society website. It's also been
recorded by Paley, but in his hands, it sounds more like a piano piece
and less like piano with an additional singing line over it.

A couple of times, I've seen a two-piano collection (inconveniently,
each piano part has its own book, without the other part shown, and the
page turns don't even coincide) that included the canon from that, as
well as familiar chestnuts like the Toccata & Fugue in d minor. I've
searched for the two-book set since then, but can't even turn up the
title (which I've completely forgotten) in a search. It's one of those
books edited by Albert Weir, like the venerable brick (~500 pages),
_Masterpieces of Piano Music_. I've tried similar titles and the
editor's name, but no luck.


Kip W

[Herman]

Le mercredi 17 octobre 2012 16:24:33 UTC+2, Kip Williams a écrit :
> Some interesting inclusions, along with the inevitable disappointments
>
> (The Ravel Left Hand at only #62?)

The best works seem to be halfway up the list: Debussy's Cello Sonata, Debussy's String Quartet and Ravel's Piano Trio, too.

I cannot help but notice that there's a lot of Fauré on the list, but none of his best works: the string quartet, the piano trio, the 2nd quintet, or the nocturnes.

[Kip Williams]

Herman wrote, On 10/17/12 2:23 PM:

> Le mercredi 17 octobre 2012 16:24:33 UTC+2, Kip Williams a écrit :
>> Some interesting inclusions, along with the inevitable disappointments
>>
>> (The Ravel Left Hand at only #62?)
>
> The best works seem to be halfway up the list: Debussy's Cello Sonata, Debussy's String Quartet and Ravel's Piano Trio, too.

Yeah. The Ravel Trio is just so darn good. Even for Ravel, it's high up
in the chart.

Of course, these lists always end up being a list of what the
respondents have heard of.

Yes, indeed, folks! The Pachelbel Canon beats out the Surprise Symphony
by a narrow margin for greatest work of classical music ever composed!
But that piece from the diamond ads is gaining fast!


Kip W

[Steve Emerson]

In article
<733eb4e1-9e6e-4fbb...@q16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

Gazes isn't bad. It can't be literally translated. I'd go with "views
of."

On another matter, it's a disgrace that these people forgot that Faure
wrote chamber music; there should be at least three such works on the
list.

But that isn't a shock. It does amaze me that they left out the Debussy
violin sonata, and did so in favor of the cello sonata (for all that the
latter is worthy). The Franck quintet's omission is a surprise too.
Canonical, standard repertoire, etc.

SE.

[Johannes Roehl]

Am 18.10.2012 05:14, schrieb Steve Emerson:
>
> On another matter, it's a disgrace that these people forgot that Faure
> wrote chamber music; there should be at least three such works on the
> list.
>
> But that isn't a shock. It does amaze me that they left out the Debussy
> violin sonata, and did so in favor of the cello sonata (for all that the
> latter is worthy). The Franck quintet's omission is a surprise too.
> Canonical, standard repertoire, etc.

These are sad ommissions, yes. Chausson seems to be missing as well.
I didn't check the whole list, but it did seem strange to me at first
glance. Saint Saens Organ symphony is #2 whereas the 3rd VC I would have
guessed to be only slightly less popular is #95, behind two of his piano
concerti? I wonder if "Pearl fishers" @ #5 really refers to the whole
opera or rather to the famous duet only.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following

letters to be typed in news:giHfs.1157$6J7...@newsfe11.iad:

Yep, them asses rule! If Grainger's "Country Gardens," say, were used in a
commercial that turned out popular, it would be on such a (not limited to
French music) list.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Johannes Roehl <parr...@web.de> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:ae9svc...@mid.individual.net:

You gotta ask? The duet only.

[John Hood]

"Steve Emerson" <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote in message
news:emersn-FD93C2....@nnrp-virt.nntp.sonic.net...

As an Australian I can assure you that most of the respondents only listen
to what is played on ABC-FM, and don't really have significant collections.
They vote for what they hear on the radio.

JH

[mandryka]

On Oct 18, 4:15 am, Steve Emerson <eme...@n-n-nospamsonic.net> wrote:
> In article
> <733eb4e1-9e6e-4fbb-a261-f386bd479...@q16g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>,

>
>  mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > 97. Messiaen Twenty gazes on the Christ-child
>
> > Interesting. Any bilinguals around? Is gaze a good translation of
> > regard? Does regard imply a long lingering intense look?
>
> Gazes isn't bad. It can't be literally translated. I'd go with "views
> of."
>

> SE.

Has anyone had a chance to hear Knapik yet?

[JohnGavin]

I've heard the word "vignettes" used here, but I've always thought that the "Vingt Regards" were closely related to "La Nativite du Seigneur" which Messiaen described as "9 Meditations".

Gaze isn't a bad translation, but it does seem to lack a certain literary grace.
I think the word "regard" implies a sort of neutrality - the quality of witnessing a scene without any sort of interpretation of judgement.

[JohnGavin]

On Friday, October 19, 2012 10:27:11 AM UTC-4, Terry wrote:
> One thing that has occurred to me is this: is there any other country whose
>
> music, if similarly surveyed, would throw up a list as rich and varied as did
>
> this survey of French music?
>
>
IMHO French music really blossomed in the late 19th and 20th centuries.
That's where the richness comes from I think. French baroque music is not something I've ever felt passionate about - I like the music of Rameau, but that's about it - I've never been able to warm up to Francois Couperin's music, ditto Gaspard Le Roux and that group. Louis Couperin composed exactly 4 pieces that I feel are worthwhile.

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

Terry wrote:
> One thing that has occurred to me is this: is there any other country
> whose music, if similarly surveyed, would throw up a list as rich and
> varied as did this survey of French music?
>

> Germany? England? Italy? USA? What's your nominated country?
>
> Personally, I suspect only Russia and the USA come close (but not too
> close). I look forward to an interesting discussion.

Germany/Austria!! Perhaps with Italy as der Dritte im Bunde.

Henk

[Alan Cooper]

Terry <bo...@clown.invalid> wrote in
news:0001HW.CCA7AE6C...@news.tpg.com.au:

> One thing that has occurred to me is this: is there any other country
> whose music, if similarly surveyed, would throw up a list as rich and
> varied as did this survey of French music?
>
> Germany? England? Italy? USA? What's your nominated country?
>
> Personally, I suspect only Russia and the USA come close (but not too
> close). I look forward to an interesting discussion.

But first let's ignore most of the world's music and confine ourselves to
Europe and North America.

AC

[Johannes Roehl]

That's hardly fair: Germany, Austria and Italy will easily beat the rest
of the musical world put together as far as quality and variety go, at
least between 1600 and 1900.

Germany without Austria (which is not always easy to separate) will also
beat France - until about 1890 or so. Unless one really loves French
baroque, in this case France is probably stronger in the 17th century.
And France wins by default anyway for most of the middle ages and
Renaissance, but this period didn't figure much in the top 100.

[mandryka]

Who are you thinking of when you say that 17th century baroque is
stronger in France than in Germany, Johannes?

Buxtehude was 17th century wasn't he? And F Couperin was later I think.

[mandryka]

Oh, just thought. Maybe Buxtehude wasn't German!

[Frank Berger]

The simple translation of "regarder" is "to look." What's wrong with simply
20 "looks," or "20 ways of looking at." I don't see "gaze" as being
appropriate, just from the title.

[Gerard]

Frank Berger <frankd...@gmail.com> typed:

View?

[Al Eisner]

On Wed, 17 Oct 2012, HvT wrote:

> Terry wrote:
>
>> 10. Saint-Sa?ns Carnival of the Animals

>> 9. Ravel Bolero
>> 8. Canteloube Songs of the Auvergne
>> 7. Berlioz Symphonie fantastique

>> 6. Debussy Pr?lude ? l'apr?s-midi d'un faune

>> 5. Bizet The Pearl Fishers

>> 4. Satie Gymnop?dies
>> 3. Faur? Requiem in D minor, Op 48
>> 2. Saint-Sa?ns Symphony No 3 in C minor, Op 78

>> 1. Bizet Carmen
>
> An interesting 1-10, in particular the Satie (works I once loved to play but
> hated - and still hate - to listen to). Although I'm not a fan of Bizet and
> Berlioz I can understand why they are so popular.
>
> Henk

Obviously I don't expect to agree with such a list, but a few random
observations,,,,

- I too am baffled by the popularity of the Satie. I'm also really
surprised to see "The Pearl Fishers" where it is.

- I do think Berlioz is deserving, the more the better. :) But
Romeo and Juliet as low as 98 is disgraceful.

- I'm surprised at the shortage of Poulenc chamber music, which I would
have thought to be more popular. (But probably I should be impressed
that the substantial chamber works of Debussy and Ravel are present.)

- Is Book II of the Debussy preludes (which doesn't appear) really
so much less popular than Book I (which has a fairly high place)?

Just having a bit of fun, nothing more.
--

Al Eisner

[Tassilo]

It was a foregone conclusion that Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy Jolas, Jean Barraqué, Michel Philippot, Henri Pousseur (if a Belgian counts), Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude Éloy, Jean-Pierre Guézec, Denis Cohen, Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-André Dalbavie, Bruno Mantovani, et al would be absent from this list. If you’re not familiar with ANY of the music of ANY of these composers, you aren’t entitled to judge this repertory, and your list should not pretend to encompass all French music. For that matter, where is Varèse? How much French music before Couperin has been considered? Where are Machaut and Philippe de Vitry? Are Franco-Flemish composers eligible for inclusion? If so, where are Dufay and Josquin? As remarkable as Carmen is, the fact that it made it to the head of the list says it all: “to be taken even less seriously than most such lists.”

For the record, I love Berlioz and Debussy.

-dg

[M forever]

On Oct 19, 6:41 pm, Tassilo <david7ga...@aol.com> wrote:
> It was a foregone conclusion that Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy Jolas, Jean Barraqué, Michel Philippot, Henri Pousseur (if a Belgian counts),
> Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude Éloy, Jean-Pierre Guézec, Denis Cohen, Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-André Dalbavie,
> Bruno Mantovani, et al would be absent from this list.  If you’re not familiar with ANY of the music of ANY of these composers, you aren’t entitled to > judge this repertory, and your list should not pretend to encompass all French music.

You forget Dutilleux! I can't believe you forgot Dutilleux!! So
obviously, you aren't entitled to judge this repertoire either.

> For that matter, where is Varèse?  How much French music before Couperin has been considered?  Where are Machaut and Philippe de Vitry? > Are Franco-Flemish composers eligible for inclusion?  If so, where are Dufay and Josquin?  As remarkable as Carmen is, the fact that it made it to > the head of the list says it all:  “to be taken even less seriously than most such lists.”

"Even less"? You take any such lists seriously? I think that is a
mistake.

It is also a mistake that you take yourself way too seriously.

> For the record, I love Berlioz and Debussy.

How very conventional of you.

> -dg

[Ray Hall]

Tassilo wrote:
> It was a foregone conclusion that Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy Jolas,

Jean Barraqu�, Michel Philippot, Henri Pousseur (if a Belgian counts)
, Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude �loy, Jean-Pierre Gu�zec, Denis Cohen,
Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-Andr� Dalbavie

, Bruno Mantovani, et al would be absent from this list.

If you�re not familiar with ANY of the music of ANY of these
composers, you aren�t entitled to judge this repertory, and your

list should not pretend to encompass all French music. For that matter,

where is Var�se? How much French music before Couperin has been considered?

Where are Machaut and Philippe de Vitry?
Are Franco-Flemish composers eligible for inclusion?
If so, where are Dufay and Josquin? As remarkable as Carmen is,
the fact that it made it to the head of the list says it all:

�to be taken even less seriously than most such lists.�

Probably for very good reason.

> For the record, I love Berlioz and Debussy.

So do most of us here. In fact La Mer is probably the greatest piece of
music ever written in the last 200 years.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Tassilo]

On Friday, October 19, 2012 6:56:00 PM UTC-4, M forever wrote:

> It is also a mistake that you take yourself way too seriously.

It's a relief to discover you don't take YOURself too seriously! That would be a terrible mistake.

-dg

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

Tassilo wrote:
> It was a foregone conclusion that Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy

> Jolas, Jean Barraqu�, Michel Philippot, Henri Pousseur (if a Belgian
> counts), Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude �loy, Jean-Pierre Gu�zec, Denis
> Cohen, Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-Andr�

> Dalbavie, Bruno Mantovani, et al would be absent from this list. If
> you�re not familiar with ANY of the music of ANY of these composers,
> you aren�t entitled to judge this repertory, and your list should not
> pretend to encompass all French music. For that matter, where is

> Var�se? How much French music before Couperin has been considered?

> Where are Machaut and Philippe de Vitry? Are Franco-Flemish
> composers eligible for inclusion? If so, where are Dufay and
> Josquin? As remarkable as Carmen is, the fact that it made it to the
> head of the list says it all: �to be taken even less seriously than

> most such lists.�

Hmmm. Has one of these composers written a composition that deserves to be
mentioned in the top 10, instead of Bizet, Saint-Saens, Faur�, Satie,
Debussy, Berlioz, Canteloube and Ravel? And on what grounds?

Henk

[Gerard]

Tassilo <david...@aol.com> typed:

> It was a foregone conclusion that Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy

> Jolas, Jean Barraqu�, Michel Philippot, Henri Pousseur (if a Belgian
> counts), Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude �loy, Jean-Pierre Gu�zec, Denis
> Cohen, Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-Andr�

> Dalbavie, Bruno Mantovani, et al would be absent from this list. If

> you�re not familiar with ANY of the music of ANY of these composers,
> you aren�t entitled to judge this repertory, and your list should not

> pretend to encompass all French music. For that matter, where is

> Var�se? How much French music before Couperin has been considered?

> Where are Machaut and Philippe de Vitry? Are Franco-Flemish
> composers eligible for inclusion? If so, where are Dufay and
> Josquin? As remarkable as Carmen is, the fact that it made it to the

> head of the list says it all: �to be taken even less seriously than
> most such lists.�
>

Why do you think that the makers of that list are not familiar with the music by

Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy Jolas, Jean Barraqu�, Michel Philippot, Henri

Pousseur, Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude �loy, Jean-Pierre Gu�zec, Denis Cohen,
Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-Andr� Dalbavie, Bruno
Mantovani, et al ?

[John Hood]

"Gerard" <ghendri-n...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b2461$50826396$5356543a$24...@cache90.multikabel.net...

> Tassilo <david...@aol.com> typed:
>> It was a foregone conclusion that Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy

>> Jolas, Jean Barraqué, Michel Philippot, Henri Pousseur (if a Belgian
>> counts), Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude Éloy, Jean-Pierre Guézec, Denis
>> Cohen, Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-André

>> Dalbavie, Bruno Mantovani, et al would be absent from this list. If

>> you’re not familiar with ANY of the music of ANY of these composers,
>> you aren’t entitled to judge this repertory, and your list should not

>> pretend to encompass all French music. For that matter, where is

>> Varèse? How much French music before Couperin has been considered?

>> Where are Machaut and Philippe de Vitry? Are Franco-Flemish
>> composers eligible for inclusion? If so, where are Dufay and
>> Josquin? As remarkable as Carmen is, the fact that it made it to the

>> head of the list says it all: “to be taken even less seriously than
>> most such lists.”

>>
>
> Why do you think that the makers of that list are not familiar with the
> music by

> Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy Jolas, Jean Barraqué, Michel Philippot,
> Henri
> Pousseur, Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude Éloy, Jean-Pierre Guézec, Denis Cohen,
> Antoine Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-André Dalbavie,

> Bruno
> Mantovani, et al ?
>
>

Because we Aussies are simple folk who only know what is played on the radio
which is distinctly MOR.

JH

[JohnGavin]

Some top 100 lists have been awful - this one just seems off to me in little ways.

Debussy's Petite Suite included but no Images or Etudes?
Faure's Pavanne is basically a very pretty melody repeated over and over, why not one of the Piano Quartets or the wonderful VIolin Sonata #1 instead?

Saint-Saens' Intoduction and Rondo Capricioso?
Isn't there a French violin virtuoso piece that is far more original, daring, and imaginative called "Tzigane"??

Again, not an outrageously bad list, but it reads a bit like one of those old TV commercials for 100 Greatest Classical Hits from the Longines Symphoniette Society.

[Kip Williams]

JohnGavin wrote, On 10/20/12 10:14 AM:

> Faure's Pavanne is basically a very pretty melody repeated over and over, why not one of the Piano Quartets or the wonderful VIolin Sonata #1 instead?

You're right, basically. In playing it, though, it's impressive how he
never really repeats something the same way. The next time through, the
melody reaches for a different second phrase, or whatever. He's not just
varying ornaments, but putting things together differently — not enough
to be a variation, but going a different way to achieve the same feeling.

It's a popularity contest, though, and as such it's kind of a marvel
that Ravel's trio penetrated the consciousness of the listeners. If the
list is viewed as a bell curve, it could be the middle part that really
has the best stuff in it.


Kip W

[weary flake]

Tassilo <david...@aol.com> wrote:

> It was a foregone conclusion that Pierre Boulez, Serge Nigg, Betsy Jolas,
> Jean Barraqué, Michel Philippot, Henri Pousseur (if a Belgian counts),
> Gilbert Amy, Jean-Claude Éloy, Jean-Pierre Guézec, Denis Cohen, Antoine
> Bonnet, Hugues Dufourt, Philippe Manoury, Marc-André Dalbavie, Bruno

> Mantovani, et al would be absent from this list. If youąre not familiar with
> ANY of the music of ANY of these composers, you arenąt entitled to judge this

> repertory, and your list should not pretend to encompass all French music.

> For that matter, where is Varčse? How much French music before Couperin has

> been considered? Where are Machaut and Philippe de Vitry? Are
> Franco-Flemish composers eligible for inclusion? If so, where are Dufay and
> Josquin? As remarkable as Carmen is, the fact that it made it to the head of

> the list says it all: łto be taken even less seriously than most such

> lists.˛
>
> For the record, I love Berlioz and Debussy.

Other French composers: Wagner, Chopin, Liszt, hey just about
all the great composers composed in France.

[jrsnfld]

Well put. It's not a bad list, compared to what might have been, and
most of the problem is heavy influence of popularity at the top of the
chart. The middle has some of the best pieces.

That said, there are some glaring omissions. As mentioned already, the
Franck Quintet was pushed out by more popular offerings of the same
composer.

The bigger problem is the lack of anything by Dutilleux or Boulez,
perhaps also the omission of Barraque. Manoury, Dalbavie, Dusapin, or
Mantovani could be on the list. I've only heard a handful of pieces by
each, and they certainly deserve consideration, especially one feels
that such a list has to be "representative". There are lots of great
pieces, like Ravel's String Quartet, that are missing probably because
the someone felt the list should be balanced and representative. So,
under that logic, the absence of the best composers of the last
quarter century is glaring and misguided.

--Jeff

[JohnGavin]

Ernst Chausson is absent and shouldn't be, on the other hand, I misspoke when I said it omitted Debussy's Images - so I will now stop picking on this well meaning list.

[M forever]

That's something you have in common with the list: you mean well, but
you often come across as rather trivial.

[jrsnfld]

> Ernst Chausson is absent and shouldn't be, on the other hand, ....

I agree...however, I would say that the absence of Boulez and
Dutilleux is a more puzzling absence. They are giants of their times;
Chausson, not so much.

--Jeff

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

I like all of Dutilleux's music for solo piano and like some of Boulez's
music for solo piano but their gigantism comes as a surprise to me. How do
you measure their greatness? Or is it a matter of taste?

Henk

[M forever]

I think Dutilleux' "Métaboles" is pretty awesome. I haven't found much
access to Boulez' music either but it is indisputable that he is a
very highly regarded and influential composer.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Al Eisner <eis...@slac.stanford.edu> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in
news:alpine.LRH.2.00.1...@iris02.slac.stanford.edu:

> - I do think Berlioz is deserving, the more the better. :) But
> Romeo and Juliet as low as 98 is disgraceful.

I think it may well be his greatest work.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> appears to have caused the following

letters to be typed in

news:2acebf93-9fa8-4aa0...@o5g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:

> On Oct 19, 6:51 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> Buxtehude was 17th century wasn't he? And F Couperin was later I think.
>
> Oh, just thought. Maybe Buxtehude wasn't German!

I thought he was Danish.

[Johannes Roehl]

Am 21.10.2012 03:21, schrieb Matthew B. Tepper:
> mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in
> news:2acebf93-9fa8-4aa0...@o5g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Oct 19, 6:51 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Buxtehude was 17th century wasn't he? And F Couperin was later I think.
>>
>> Oh, just thought. Maybe Buxtehude wasn't German!
>
> I thought he was Danish.

Born in Denmark from a German father and a Danish mother, Lï¿œbeck where
he spent most of his life was a free Hanseatic city, but it was a German
city, not a Danish one. His church music is in German, of course.

[mandryka]

On Oct 21, 9:56 am, Johannes Roehl <parrhe...@web.de> wrote:
> Am 21.10.2012 03:21, schrieb Matthew B. Tepper:
>

> > mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> appears to have caused the following

> > letters to be typed in
> >news:2acebf93-9fa8-4aa0...@o5g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> On Oct 19, 6:51 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Buxtehude was 17th century wasn't he? And F Couperin was later I think.
>
> >> Oh, just thought. Maybe Buxtehude wasn't German!
>
> > I thought he was Danish.
>

> Born in Denmark from a German father and a Danish mother, Lübeck where

> he spent most of his life was a free Hanseatic city, but it was a German
> city, not a Danish one. His church music is in German, of course.

Ahhh. But what about Froberger.

This is silly.

[SPAM- @xs4all.nl HvT]

M forever wrote:
> On Oct 20, 2:45 pm, "HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> jrsnfld wrote:
>>> On Oct 20, 11:07 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Ernst Chausson is absent and shouldn't be, on the other hand, ....
>>
>>> I agree...however, I would say that the absence of Boulez and
>>> Dutilleux is a more puzzling absence. They are giants of their
>>> times; Chausson, not so much.
>>
>> I like all of Dutilleux's music for solo piano and like some of
>> Boulez's music for solo piano but their gigantism comes as a
>> surprise to me. How do you measure their greatness? Or is it a
>> matter of taste?
>>
>> Henk
>

> I think Dutilleux' "M�taboles" is pretty awesome. I haven't found much

> access to Boulez' music either but it is indisputable that he is a
> very highly regarded and influential composer.

Indeed. Boulez deserves to be mentioned in any list of great composers of
the XXth century. The question is whether he has written anything that
deserves a place in a list of the top 100 French works. I disagree with many
nominations (Jarre, for example) but wouldn't replace them by anything
Boulez has written.

Henk

[M forever]

On Oct 21, 8:23 am, "HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote:
> M forever wrote:
> > On Oct 20, 2:45 pm, "HvT" <hvtuijl- SPAM- @xs4all.nl> wrote:
> >> jrsnfld wrote:
> >>> On Oct 20, 11:07 am, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> Ernst Chausson is absent and shouldn't be, on the other hand, ....
>
> >>> I agree...however, I would say that the absence of Boulez and
> >>> Dutilleux is a more puzzling absence. They are giants of their
> >>> times; Chausson, not so much.
>
> >> I like all of Dutilleux's music for solo piano and like some of
> >> Boulez's music for solo piano but their gigantism comes as a
> >> surprise to me. How do you measure their greatness? Or is it a
> >> matter of taste?
>
> >> Henk
>

> > I think Dutilleux' "Métaboles" is pretty awesome. I haven't found much

> > access to Boulez' music either but it is indisputable that he is a
> > very highly regarded and influential composer.
>
> Indeed. Boulez deserves to be mentioned in any list of great composers of
> the XXth century. The question is whether he has written anything that
> deserves a place in a list of the top 100 French works. I disagree with many
> nominations (Jarre, for example) but wouldn't replace them by anything
> Boulez has written.

Sure he has. Le marteau sans maître, …explosante-fixe…, Pli selon pli,
Notations, and others are widely recognized as signifcant and highly
influential master pieces. I have no problem recognizing that even
though, as I said, I haven't found direct access to his music myself
yet. A lot of the pieces on that list are nice, but insignificant and
trivial pieces. But we aren't taking that kind of list seriously
anyway (I hope).

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Johannes Roehl <parr...@web.de> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:aehrl3...@mid.individual.net:

> Am 21.10.2012 03:21, schrieb Matthew B. Tepper:
>> mandryka <howie...@btinternet.com> appears to have caused the
>> following letters to be typed in
>> news:2acebf93-9fa8-4aa0...@o5g2000vbr.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> On Oct 19, 6:51 pm, mandryka <howie.st...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Buxtehude was 17th century wasn't he? And F Couperin was later I
>>>> think.
>>>
>>> Oh, just thought. Maybe Buxtehude wasn't German!
>>
>> I thought he was Danish.
>

> Born in Denmark from a German father and a Danish mother, Lübeck where

> he spent most of his life was a free Hanseatic city, but it was a German
> city, not a Danish one. His church music is in German, of course.

Thanks.