The Voicing of Pianos

[JohnGavin]

A professor of mine who was not only a highly accomplished pianist,
but also very expert in piano technology told me that after WWII,
pianists began to request brighter sounds so that the sound of a live
concert more approximated the sound of recordings.

Every notice how recordings by Golden Age pianists generally have a
more mellow, less glassy, pointed sound?

Here's a good case in point. Compare these 2 recordings of the First
Nocturne by Faure. (No, the difference is NOT entirely due to the
pianist's touch, I can guarantee that).

G. Thyssens-Valentin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI_HjbsfJ3k

Kun Woo Paik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50G_AhGbQkk

[Romy the Cat]

Yes, John, I was trying to explain it to the local Morons in past but
they are too short-minded. Staring from 70s as SS circuit-broad
electronics and DSP become a norm and lead to many negative
consequences the playing techniques, the design of musical instruments
and the design of acoustic halls become more and more imitate the
sound of cheap audio. The “glassy” sound you refer is also not
entirely due to regress of instruments but mostly due to barbering
mastering techniques hat contemporary idiots use. Get to yourself the
garbage from Pristine and it will be the best illustration of what I
am taking about. If you would like to get the sound from Golden Age
pianists then you need to use Golden Age playback, including the good
78 playback that will beat any contemporary mega-bucks audio systems
that cretins use nowadays.

[O]

In article
<ec1e10fe-a1af-4f67...@bs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

Romy the Cat <Ro...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:

>
> Yes, John, I was trying to explain it to the local Morons in past but
> they are too short-minded. Staring from 70s as SS circuit-broad

I used to go out with a circuit-broad.

> electronics and DSP become a norm and lead to many negative
> consequences the playing techniques, the design of musical instruments
> and the design of acoustic halls become more and more imitate the

> sound of cheap audio. The łglassy˛ sound you refer is also not

> entirely due to regress of instruments but mostly due to barbering
> mastering techniques hat contemporary idiots use. Get to yourself the
> garbage from Pristine and it will be the best illustration of what I
> am taking about. If you would like to get the sound from Golden Age
> pianists then you need to use Golden Age playback, including the good
> 78 playback that will beat any contemporary mega-bucks audio systems
> that cretins use nowadays.
>

Yup. Those iron needles lasted forever, and thanks to the winding
crank, no need for electricity.

-Owen

[herman]

On 7 fév, 19:23, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a good case in point.  Compare these 2 recordings of the First
> Nocturne by Faure.  (No, the difference is NOT entirely due to the
> pianist's touch, I can guarantee that).
>
> G. Thyssens-Valentin
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cI_HjbsfJ3k
>
> Kun Woo Paik
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50G_AhGbQkk

Well, wouldn't we first need to establish which make piano G.T.V. and
K.W.P. use?

[herman]

On 7 fév, 20:31, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article
> <ec1e10fe-a1af-4f67-bf1a-0bb7dccae...@bs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

> Romy the Cat <R...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Yes, John, I was trying to explain it to the local Morons in past but
> > they are too short-minded. Staring from 70s as SS circuit-broad
>
> I used to go out with a circuit-broad.
>

but was she in the SS?

[O]

In article
<d5322712-64ed-4d22...@l1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

I would like to think so, the way she treated me.

-Owen

[bassppn]

On Feb 7, 1:23 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:

different brands of piano?? the treble of the 2nd piano is thinner
and not perfectly tuned., acoustics of the hall.. so many possible
factors

AB

[bassppn]

of course, that is the first step.......

[Kip Williams]

She wore the uniform. That's why they were staring from the 70s.


Kip W

[herman]

Yeah, in the 70s you got a real stare if you were on the town in your
SS drag

[whisky...@yahoo.com]

On Feb 7, 1:43 pm, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article

> <d5322712-64ed-4d22-97d3-32cd35476...@l1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,

Not t' Esla, she-wolf of the SS! She was shockingly AC/DC.

[Kip Williams]

> Not t' Esla, she-wolf of the SS! She was shockingly AC/DC.

You seem to be up on current events.


Kip W

[bassppn]

On Feb 7, 9:18 pm, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kip W- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


are you shocked?

AB

[Romy the Cat]

> AB- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, the SS circuit-broad was funny. Anyhow, the circuit-broad is
circuit-board and SS is Solid State electronics. It was not difficult
to figure out as it is a standard industry name but I guess it let the
local Morons to take eyes out of ball and to vandalize another thread.

[O]

In article
<98ef2d45-fa17-4c43...@l16g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,

Romy the Cat <Ro...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:

She was a standard industry gal, that circuit broad. I'm not sure of
her religion, but I don't think she really was a Moron.

-Owen

[herman]

On 8 fév, 19:05, Romy the Cat <R...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:

> It was not difficult
> to figure out as it is a standard industry name but I guess it let the
> local Morons to take eyes out of ball and to vandalize another thread.

well, sorry, but where I come from it's considered unethical not to
take the eyes out of the ball.

[Kip Williams]

> are you shocked?

For a battery of reasons.


Kip W

[Kip Williams]

Eyes back into the ball, you knuckleheads!


Kip W

[Ward Hardman]

On Feb 8, 10:54 am, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> In article

> <98ef2d45-fa17-4c43-896a-e00357f7f...@l16g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,

Moron girls are great!!! They make great wives and don't object if
you marry additional wives, as long as they are also of the Moron
persuasion. They also like big families, so you can beget a numerous
progeny, Aye, a veritable tribe of little Morons.

There is prejudice in some circles against Morons, but not enough to
prevent a Moron from being elected President. You could look it
up! ;-)

--Ward Hardman

"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence,
just simple competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken

[O]

In article
<2926d294-32ed-4a7b...@15g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,

Ward Hardman <ward.h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> > > > > >>>>> Yes, John, I was trying to explain it to the local Morons in
> past
> > > > > >>>>> but
> > > > > >>>>> they are too short-minded. Staring from 70s as SS circuit-broad
> >
> > > > > >>>> I used to go out with a circuit-broad.
> >
> > > > > >>> but was she in the SS?
> >
> > > > > >> I would like to think so, the way she treated me.
> >
> > > > > > Not t' Esla, she-wolf of the SS!   She was shockingly AC/DC.
> >
> > > > > You seem to be up on current events.
> >
> > > > > Kip W- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > > are you shocked?
> >
> > > > AB- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > Yes, the SS circuit-broad was funny. Anyhow, the circuit-broad is
> > > circuit-board and SS is Solid State electronics. It was not difficult
> > > to figure out as it is a standard industry name but I guess it let the
> > > local Morons to take eyes out of ball and to vandalize another thread.
> >
> > She was a standard industry gal, that circuit broad.  I'm not sure of
> > her religion, but I don't think she really was a Moron.
>
> Moron girls are great!!! They make great wives and don't object if
> you marry additional wives, as long as they are also of the Moron
> persuasion.

Who persuades them to be Morons?

-Owen

[Kip Williams]

Too much LDS in college.


Kip W

[O]

In article <DnTYq.8329$j%3.2...@newsfe04.iad>, Kip Williams

So that's what they were doing, hanging around the WatchTower.

-Owen, who admits these posts are offensive to Morons.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:DnTYq.8329$j%3.2...@newsfe04.iad:

While searching for nuclear wessels, no doubt.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[Kip Williams]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Kip Williams<mrk...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:DnTYq.8329$j%3.2...@newsfe04.iad:
>
>> O wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <2926d294-32ed-4a7b...@15g2000vbq.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Ward Hardman<ward.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Moron girls are great!!! They make great wives and don't object if
>>>> you marry additional wives, as long as they are also of the Moron
>>>> persuasion.
>>>
>>> Who persuades them to be Morons?
>>
>> Too much LDS in college.
>
> While searching for nuclear wessels, no doubt.

I saw the pun in the first act, so it had to go off now.


Kip W

[bassppn]

On Feb 7, 1:23 pm, JohnGavin <dagd...@gmail.com> wrote:

it is a shame that some 'commedians' hijacked this interesting
topic......... how often do we hear recorded pianos that are not
voiced properly,( so neighboring notes sound different) and this is
more evident because of hi-fidelity recording.
Today while listening to the Brahms 1st concerto with Rubenstien and
Reiner a number of treble notes were badly out of tune and i cringed
every time I anticipated those notes. SFAIAC ill-prepared piano
recordings are inexcusable and an insult to those of us who can hear
these deficiencies and who look forward to hearing beautiful sounds
from a concert grand

AB

[Romy the Cat]

> AB- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The reality is that it is frequently that piano is not tuned properly
but there is more to it. It is very frequently, particularly during
the studio recording when orchestra is not time-aligned with piano.
Even if the conductor and soloists managed to play together, or even
”interestingly together” then it is very frequently the barbaric
poly-
microphone techniques kill all magic and change the natural balance
between piano and the rest instruments. Piano is tricky… I do not
remember that Brahms with Rubenstien but there are very many examples
that do what you describe. Ironically it might be not necessary the
piano tuning. Pretend that the people recorded the piano and stuck
6 near-field microphones into the piano, separated for each octave. I
have seen the idiots do it and record each feed to a different truck.
Now pretend that some kind of Moron with diploma of electrician who
believes the he is a big time sound engineer desired to EQ one of the
trucks. I will be it – the sound of piano is permanently vanadalised,
which BTW will not prevent the recording to get industry medals and
universal admiration from the local cretins-commedians.

[herman]

On 9 fév, 22:18, bassppn <abachr...@att.net> wrote:


> Today while listening to the Brahms 1st concerto with Rubenstien and
> Reiner a number of treble notes were badly out of tune and i cringed
> every time I anticipated those notes.  SFAIAC ill-prepared piano
> recordings are inexcusable and an insult to those of us who can hear
> these deficiencies and who look forward to hearing beautiful sounds
> from a concert grand
>
> AB

And then there are people who want to prove they are more
sophisticated than others (what's the point of classical music
otherwise?) and complain about out-of-tune instruments every single
time - even in the case of exquisite instruments prepared by the
best people in the business.

[herman]

On 10 fév, 12:33, themusicparlour <tin...@ymail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 8:03 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >... who complain about out-of-tune instruments every single time  -  even in the case of exquisite instruments prepared by the best people in the business.
>
> The 'best people in the business' didn't 'rise to the occasion' with
> regards to the 1954 Rubinstein.
>
you may not have noticed that there's hardly any piano or piano
recording that isn't out of tune according to bassoon man

[R. Edwards]

For classical solo piano recordings made in a studio-type situation,
there really is no excuse for having an instrument go out-of-tune. If
a recording project takes place over several days, and you start out
with a perfectly tuned instrument, the pianist (or producer) will want
to make sure that the instrument stays that way throughout so that any
edits between takes are undetectable.

I have had the opportunity to be at several recording sessions at the
American Academy of Arts and Letters in upper Manhattan over the past
few years. A Hamburg Steinway that had been chosen by the artist from
Steinway's selection room was on stage, and one of Steinway's tuners
was on hand each morning and afternoon to do touch-ups to the tuning,
and, if necessary, the voicing.

Obviously not every listener cares or artist desires a piano that is
evenly voiced or perfectly in tune. There are certainly enough
recordings by famous jazz pianists on well-used studio pianos that
shows it doesn't matter to them.

Ray

[JohnGavin]

My first post here was addressing the quality of tone on pianos, and
how the aesthetic of ideal piano sound has changed over time.

Of course each player probably has a different ideal of sound - but
what I believe has happened is that the typical piano sound has gotten
brighter or less mellow over time, as recordings attest to.
This brightness is achieved by hardening the hammers with a chemical
agent, so that the tone is more pointed - the justification for this
is probably to create a heightened clarity in a concert setting - so
that people sitting in the audience hear a sort of crystal clarity
that one might hear on a recording, sitting in front of speakers.
Bright sound also amplifies the brilliance of virtuoso passagework,
which is why someone like Horowitz was notorious for wanting his
technician to voice his piano as brilliantly as possible. (Read the
book by Fritz Mohr).

So, the original post was to suggest that it might be nice to return
once again to a more mellow sound-ideal - the kind of sound that we
hear in the playing of Albert Ferber, for example.

[bassppn]

On Feb 10, 3:03 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:

why dont you fuck off......... we have one idiot (TD) and now we have
to tolerate you as well.......... I dont claim to be more
sophisticated than others......I am not 'complaining' about out of
tune pianos, I am complaining about YOU.......... you are a fool ( I
hope not in TD's class) if you believe that the best people in the
business are always involved in all piano recordings, even for the
most important labels...... I doubt if you really are a musical
person......... you just love to spout names of pianists, etc.
If you cant add anything knowledgable to this conversation just shut
up and let the peopel who know something about this subject be
involved........ just watch, maybe you can learn something.

AB

[bassppn]

On Feb 10, 6:33 am, themusicparlour <tin...@ymail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 8:03 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >... who complain about out-of-tune instruments every single time  -  even in the case of exquisite instruments prepared by the best people in the business.
>
> The 'best people in the business' didn't 'rise to the occasion' with
> regards to the 1954 Rubinstein.
>

> "The specific fault was noted in an EMG Monthly Letter (December 1955
> as HMV ALP 1297) thus:
> "What puts the whole thing beyond the pale is the fact that the piano
> is not in tune. We find it difficult to imagine how a pianist of the
> experience, taste and musicianship of Rubenstein [sic] could bear to
> put up with an instrument whose treble D (fourth line, treble clef) is
> blatantly out of tune. This note harrows the nerves throughout the
> whole work".
>
> That fault was remarked-upon again when it was re-issued decades later
> (the stereo version - which sounds ghastly as the UK RCA) - so bassppn
> isn't being 'too picky' at all.
>
> Doubtless an 'electrician' equipped with Capstan/XR will now be able
> to make the performance 'note-perfect'...

thanks for this............ maybe now, Herman "the resident ignorant"
will keep his fucking mouth shut.......... I am glad, shocked and
somewhat astonished to read this critique above. You rarely see these
kinds of comments.
Incidentally, Rubenstein's recordings with the Philadelphia Orchedstra
have many instinces of out of tune notes......
Recently I heard an Andras Schiff (sp?) recording with a piano that
was both out of tune and not voiced carefully.
Argerich recorded the Chopin F minor concerto with Rostropovich on an
unbelieveably out of tune piano. The list goes on and on. One more.
Ax's recording of the Emperor concerto with Previn (English orchetra)
has an awful high Bb, the only really bad note on the piano but it
stands out.........

AB

[bassppn]

you are a total ass (and fool).......... why dont you be a 'man' and
admit you are wrong.......... Because you are probabaly tone deaf like
your friend TD, that does not mean that the rest of us are...

AB

[bassppn]

> Ray- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

the N.Y. Phil has played a good number of piano concertos the had out
of tune pianos...........I had a friend in the N. Y. Phil's violiin
section who said that the string section was all talking about a
Kissin-Emperor concerto and the terrible piano. much worse than the
Rubenstein -Brahms

AB

[bassppn]

> My first post here was addressing the quality of tone on pianos, and
> how the aesthetic of ideal piano sound has changed over time.
>
> Of course each player probably has a different ideal of sound - but
> what I believe has happened is that the typical piano sound has gotten
> brighter or less mellow over time, as recordings attest to.

Generally speaking that is true, but part of the issue is that modern
recordings can pick up the deficiencies of piano tone better than the
old 78s.......

This brightness is achieved by hardening the hammers with a chemical
> agent, so that the tone is more pointed - the justification for this
> is probably to create a heightened clarity in a concert setting - so
> that people sitting in the audience hear a sort of crystal clarity
> that one might hear on a recording, sitting in front of speakers.
> Bright sound also amplifies the brilliance of virtuoso passagework,
> which is why someone like Horowitz was notorious for wanting his
> technician to voice his piano as brilliantly as possible.  (Read the
> book by Fritz Mohr).

Right, but becuase he had a very fine ear, most of the time the tone
was not too harsh. he knew how to strike the keys to avoid that
problem.........

> So, the original post was to suggest that it might be nice to return
> once again to a more mellow sound-ideal - the kind of sound that we

> hear in the playing of Albert Ferber, for example.- Hide quoted text -

I have a recording of Cherkassky playing all the Chopin Preludes that
has an even more beautiful tone....... absolutely amazing sound.
(1960s I believe)
But then we have the Schabel-LvB sonatas which dont have a
particularaly pleasing tone........
I think recently the piano sound on recordings have become more mellow
( on average) especially when Hamburg Stgeinways are used.

AB

[bassppn]

On Feb 10, 3:03 am, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[bassppn]

> universal admiration from the local cretins-commedians.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

there is no dobut that certain individual notes are out of tune.... I
just might have the original LP and if so will be able to tell you
exactly what I am talking about. What you describe above is certainly
true about many recordings, but please remember that this recording is
probably a mono IIRC.

AB

[herman]

There you go.

[bassppn]

> There you go.- Hide quoted text -

where do I go??? What I said above is common knowledge to those who
can HEAR. You are obviously not a musician. this stuff is beyond you,
why dont you stay out of this? You certainly owe me an apology, are
you SOPHISTICATED enuf to do it:-))

AB

[R. Edwards]

I don't think that the “mellow sound-ideal” has altogether
disappeared. In fact, the aesthetic of piano tone (at least as
reflected in recordings) hasn't changed all that much since the late
1920s. Many of the differences I hear in those recordings have to do
with microphone placement and the ability of early microphones (and
recording equipment) to pick up (or attenuate) the higher overtones
that define tonal brilliance.

More importantly, it's a pianist's 'touch' that determines the way a
piano sounds. Pianists like Rosenthal, Friedman, Rachmaninoff,
Moiseiwitsch, Arrau, Michelangeli, Cherkassky, Bolet, Novaes, Freire,
Ferber etc. produced a more "mellow" tone and probably had their
pianos voiced accordingly; Grainger (who described his own tone a
'hard as nails'), Hambourg, Barere, Backhaus, Kapell, Cziffra,
Horowitz, Argerich, Pollini, etc. clearly preferred a harder tone and
had their pianos voiced more brilliantly.

[bassppn]

> had their pianos voiced more brilliantly.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

I read the formidable list of pianists above......... please mention
one Rachmaninoff recording that has a 'mellow' tone........... I have
never heard one yet. In fact that is one of the limitations of his
playing (among others) IMO.

AB

[John Wiser]

"O" <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote in message
news:080220121354425559%ow...@denofinequityx.com...
> In article
> <98ef2d45-fa17-4c43...@l16g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
> Romy the Cat <Ro...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:

>
>> On Feb 8, 12:40 pm, bassppn <abachr...@att.net> wrote:
>> > On Feb 7, 9:18 pm, Kip Williams <mrk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > > whiskynspl...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > > > On Feb 7, 1:43 pm, O<ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
>> > > >> In article
>> > > >> <d5322712-64ed-4d22-97d3-32cd35476...@l1g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
>> >
>> > > >> herman<her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > > >>> On 7 fév, 20:31, O<ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
>> > > >>>> In article
>> > > >>>> <ec1e10fe-a1af-4f67-bf1a-0bb7dccae...@bs8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,

>> > > >>>> Romy the Cat<R...@goodSoundClub.com> wrote:
>> >

>> > > >>>>> Yes, John, I was trying to explain it to the local Morons in
>> > > >>>>> past
>> > > >>>>> but
>> > > >>>>> they are too short-minded. Staring from 70s as SS circuit-broad
>> >
>> > > >>>> I used to go out with a circuit-broad.
>> >
>> > > >>> but was she in the SS?
>> >
>> > > >> I would like to think so, the way she treated me.
>> >
>> > > > Not t' Esla, she-wolf of the SS! She was shockingly AC/DC.
>> >
>> > > You seem to be up on current events.
>> >

>> > > Kip W- Hide quoted text -

>> >
>> > > - Show quoted text -
>> >

>> > are you shocked?
>> >
>> > AB- Hide quoted text -

>> >
>> > - Show quoted text -
>>

>> Yes, the SS circuit-broad was funny. Anyhow, the circuit-broad is
>> circuit-board and SS is Solid State electronics. It was not difficult
>> to figure out as it is a standard industry name but I guess it let the
>> local Morons to take eyes out of ball and to vandalize another thread.
>
> She was a standard industry gal, that circuit broad. I'm not sure of
> her religion, but I don't think she really was a Moron.
>

I think the confusion was, she drove a Marmon.

JDW

[O]

In article <Q_wZq.8485$Tu....@newsfe05.iad>, John Wiser

I knew that Marmon -- she drove him to drink!


-Owen

[herman]

Arri, you are virtually deaf.

I remember a discussion in which two versions of a Bach violin
concerto were discussed. Hillary Hahn and Viktoria Mullova. You
claimed one was much faster than the other, with the usual hyperbolic
claims about your incredible ears, and how Hillary Hahn had had the
privilige of playing with your orchestra, etc etc ad inf.

I checked the recordings (I had copies of Hahn's Bach and Mullova's)
and it was devastingly clear you couldn't even hear which one was
faster. You were just making it up.

These classical music forums attract a number of bullshit artists who
are here to show other people how sophisticated they are. On RMCR
there's Abbedd, there's Romy and a bunch of others. When you do your
out-of-tune piano shtick, you're one of them.

That's your privilige; it's a free world. But don't ask me to
apologise.

[bassppn]

> apologise.- Hide quoted text -


I dont ask you..... i expect you to......... I mention the out of tune
pianos to those who can hear them........ it is obvious that you can.t
Even TD can hear that (sometimes). BTW- you should be as 'deaf' as i
am........ maybe then you might get some respect arouind here.

AB