The dumbing down of the ancient city of Leiden (Angry!)
ffolliott
EM wrote in message ...
>
>But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by
the
>majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring
and
>difficult" classical music?
>
>How is this situation elsewhere?
>
Sadly, your perceptions are absolutely accurate. This began
happening about fifty years ago here in the United States, with
the lamentable results today penetrating to every corner of our
society. I urge you to fight against the erosion of historic
standards in your own country.
Piotr Michalowski
network called National Public Radio, which seemed to make up for the
losses to the pop biz everywhere else. In the last few years there
has been a drastic deterioration of quality if NPR, with the pop
worls intruding into news programs, development of mediocre interview
shows and cutting of arts programing. The same is slowly happening
to BBC.
The big media corporations are now multimedia, and they have
convinced adults not to grow up. My fear is that when they cart me
off to the old folks home, I will be forced by othre geriatrics to
listen to horrid pop music from the sixties...
Piotr
EM wrote:
>
> In Leiden, The Netherlands, we had, until recently, the possibility to
> hear foreign arts and classical radio stations on cable radio. The
> decision as to what stations are allowed on the cable, which has a
> limited capacity, has been delegated to a so called program council.
> This council consists of representatives of the population. These
> peoples' representatives decided in their infinite wisdom that there
> was too much classical music, which to them includes André Rieu or
> endless repeats of a Strauss waltz on a synthesizer, on the radio so
> they took the German public station WDR 3 (arts, classical music,
> intellectual stuff) and the British BBC 3 (mainly classical music) off
> the cable and replace these with a pop/rock and c&w (!) station
> respectively. This is taking place in an ancient university town with
> a long intellectual tradition and with cultural pretensions, but also
> in a country were a number of leading politicians mention pop music as
> their favourite music. Our rather mediocre, to put it mildly, minister
> of economic affairs even has posters of the Rolling Stones in her
> office and the chairwoman of our parliament got mentally stuck in 1970
> and is still a fan of whoever was in the charts then. It was not
> always like this but increasingly even well-educated (?) people admit
> to enjoying simple popular entertainment. This whole process of
> dumbing down and vulgarization of society makes me angry and sad at
> the same time.
>
> So now, as a result of the dumbing down and vulgarization, we have
> have been robbed of two good public radio stations with a high to very
> high classical music content in their programs. What next, one wonders
> and fears.
>
> But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> difficult" classical music?
>
> How is this situation elsewhere?
>
> Eltjo Meijer
Richard Weaver
its classical music stations several years ago (well, there is one
station that, between long runs of hill-billy commercials plays
excerpts of classical music).
And San Francisco was thought to be a cultural all-encompassing town,
from female impersonators to opera. Which reminds me, the
impersonators place just shut down too.
Welcome to the middle - medial - mediocre!
dick w
Alain
them. Here in Canada, where there are essentially no arts on TV, the
European chain Arte was apparently denied a licence because it was
considered "elitist". So I looked at their typical schedule in Repertoire
and the first program I came upon was the WInnipeg ballet. You won't ever
catch them on Canadian TV. They also seemed to have a very wide range of
cultural programming, from every continent, with many different musical
styles, so that it was hard to see where the charge of elitism came from.
Bashing the arts just seems to work nowadays.
Alain (who wouldn't have watched Arte anyway)
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
Piotr Michalowski wrote:
>
<snip>
> The big media corporations are now multimedia, and they have
> convinced adults not to grow up. My fear is that when they cart me
> off to the old folks home, I will be forced by othre geriatrics to
> listen to horrid pop music from the sixties...
> Piotr
Well, I hope I manage to drop dead BEFORE I'm forced to face
the prospect - the ineptly harmonium- accompanied hymn-sings
that took place outside my Mom's nursing-home door were bad
enough! But what can you expect of a culture whose auto
bumper stickers display such sentiments as "I may grow old,
but I'll never grow up"???
Evelyn
Matt Friedman
>
> But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> difficult" classical music?
Sad to say, it's happening everywhere.
Strangely enough, however, a new classical music station started up in
Montreal [Quebec, Canada] last year. CJPX has actually been pretty
successful in terms of ratings. The station mainly plays "old
chestnuts," light classical and baroque music, but it's not too bad. Of
course, when you consider that all we have for classical music in
Montreal is CBC Radio 2, Radio Canada FM and Vermont Public Radio, we're
not too bad off.
The main problem is that Radio 2 plays FAR less music than it used to.
The new slogan for Radio 2 is "classics and beyond," which means "far
less classical music than we used to play." Although there's still
Saturday Afternoon at the Opera, and a few rather good weekend classical
music shows, the network has really cut back on its weekday classical
music content. A good example is Disc Drive a 3-hour showcase for CBC
"personality" Jurgen Goethe's rather dull cleverness usually featuring a
dribble of light classical music with a whole lot of commentary and
musical selections that showcase Goethe's rather pedestrian "eclectic
tastes." The Rameau-on-synthesiser theme music sums it up, I believe.
Radio Canada [the French-language network] is pretty much the same, but
it does program more adventurous music. Vermont Public Radio is part of
the US Nationa Public radio Network and features a mix of public affairs
and culture. The problem is that reception is pretty dodgy in some parts
of Montreal.
I would dearly love to see someone set-up a 24-hour classical music
station here -- like CJPX, but with more adventurous programming -- but
I won't hold my breat. Classical music on the radio is declining. I can
imagine a time when it will have completely disappeared.
MF
Skippy's Mommy
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" wrote:
<But what can you expect of a culture whose auto
bumper stickers display such sentiments as "I may grow old,
but I'll never grow up"???>
My Little Wally has one of those bumper stickers on his tricycle. He is SO
cute zipping about in Manhattan traffic, wearing a Beverly S thong slung
around his neck, and playing Charlotte Church records on his little
Fisher-Price CD player.
jan winter
wrote:
>
>
>EM wrote in message ...
>>
>>But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by
>the
>>majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring
>and
>>difficult" classical music?
>>
>>How is this situation elsewhere?
>>
>Sadly, your perceptions are absolutely accurate. This began
>happening about fifty years ago here in the United States
So finally the proof beyond reasonable doubt: Heinrich Heine was
right! In Holland indeed everything happens fifty years later.
--
regards,
jan winter, amsterdam
(j.wi...@xs4all.nl)
music is the healing force of the universe
(Albert Ayler)
jan winter
wrote:
>On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 00:01:46 -0800, Piotr Michalowski
><pio...@umich.edu> wrote:
>
>>(...)
>>The big media corporations are now multimedia, and they have
>>convinced adults not to grow up. My fear is that when they cart me
>>off to the old folks home, I will be forced by othre geriatrics to
>>listen to horrid pop music from the sixties...
>
>And play bingo, no doubt?
>
>Thanks anyway for cheering me up by painting this possible future
>nightmare. I had to drink a bottle of Italian red before I could cope
>with the dumbed down world again.
>
>Eltjo M.
I'm afraid just one bottle of Italian red isn't enough. When I'm old
I'll buy a hutje op de hei with no adress, but equiped with a piano, a
discman and enough drink and other stuff to die in bliss.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Someone wrote :
> >>>
> >>>Here in NYC we have plenty of pop, much less porn under the
> Giuliani
> >>>administration, and hardly any soccer.
> >>>
> EM - Please, if you are still there, is it the LIBERAL party or
> the conservatives who are engineering the deterioration which you
> observe?
the Liberal and Conservative parties in NYS are virtually
indistinguishable these days.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
Peter T. Daniels
>
> EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
>
> >
> >But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> >majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> >difficult" classical music?
> >
> >How is this situation elsewhere?
>
> administration, and hardly any soccer.
>
Plenty of soccer (they just don't get paid for playing it) -- but lots
of boring and difficult classical music, as well as plenty of the other
kind as well.
No Name
><snip sad events in Leiden>
>So now, as a result of the dumbing down and vulgarization, we have
>have been robbed of two good public radio stations with a high to very
>high classical music content in their programs. What next, one wonders
>and fears.
>
>majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
>difficult" classical music?
>
Here I jump! I think it is clear by now that democracy is the best way
of goverment although it is clear majorities can be wrong, but that is
a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen ( soviet
realism anyone?).
I don't mind to belong to a minority that loves classical music and I
refuse to be judgamental about the taste of other people because I hate
when somebody is judgamental about my own tastes ( how many of the
writers in this heroic ng have not been labaled "elitists" for their
passion for Mozart, Rossini, Verdi or Strauss?).
In this particular case the majority has decided they don't want classical
music, then so be it. We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different and
that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
lives than "Aida".
I prefer Aida any day, but I respect who likes anything else, and if a given
service is paid with public money the majority of the public has to be served,
this is much worse if it is a company trying to make a profit, because
the paying clients are the ones that mold these decissions.
If classical music will become an obscure pleasure of a few so be it, I believe
that eventually people will rediscover the value of classical music and that
eventually a lot of "pop" music will be considered classical because it
undoubtly has artistic value.
>How is this situation elsewhere?
That is the strange thing, for what I see in London, the classical music
scene is vibrant and full of life, but somehow it looks like people
don't buy music (CDs and the like). So if I were an exraterrestrial
monster just arrived to London, I would say that classical music
is very well and then I would eat two or three opera singers.
TV in the other hand is pathetic, the space between any performance
broadcasted on TV and the next can be measured in weeks, even months,
and the only regular access to classical music is via pay cable channels
(the one I get broadcasts from 0:00 to 6:00 ,,,). Radio is slightly
better, but not much in my opinion for a city like London: only 2
stations programming classical music. This is a disapointment for me
personaly because in my home town (Mexico City) we have 4 radio stations
that broadcast classical music, one of them as its only offering and
we have 2 TV (free open) channels that broadcast a little bit of
classical music (more than the BBC!) including opera with Spanish
subtitles.
In Southeast Asia they are trying to put orchestras but their broadcasting
offerings are close to nil (and why should they after all, it is not their
music in reality, but then why those concert halls and orchestras?).
>
>Eltjo Meijer
Good luck, I hope the situation does not get worse, but I doubt it.
Harry K. Thaw
No Name wrote:
> We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
>that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones, but that they are
different [ ... ]
BALONEY!! That IS the mistake: High culture IS better than the
pop 'culture'. When you say they are merely 'different', that
CONSTITUTES the dumbing-down. Some people have more refined taste
than other people - they should not apologize for that.
I feel that much of this harmful process of continually seeking
the lowest common denominator results from empty phrases of bad
18th-century philosophy (like 'all men are created equal'). The
fact is there are smarter people and less-smart people. There are
many more stupid people than smart ones, and when everyone's
opinion counts equally, you obtain the bad results which we
presently observe.
Bogdan Tudose
> On Wed, 02 Feb 2000 05:13:12 +0100, EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
> ><snip sad events in Leiden>
> >So now, as a result of the dumbing down and vulgarization, we have
> >have been robbed of two good public radio stations with a high to very
> >high classical music content in their programs. What next, one wonders
> >and fears.
> >
> >But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> >majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> >difficult" classical music?
> >
>
> Here I jump! I think it is clear by now that democracy is the best way
> of goverment although it is clear majorities can be wrong, but that is
> a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen ( soviet
> realism anyone?).
>
> I don't mind to belong to a minority that loves classical music and I
> refuse to be judgamental about the taste of other people because I hate
> when somebody is judgamental about my own tastes ( how many of the
> writers in this heroic ng have not been labaled "elitists" for their
> passion for Mozart, Rossini, Verdi or Strauss?).
Is that bad? Which is worse : being "elitist" or "populist"?
>
>
> In this particular case the majority has decided they don't want classical
> music, then so be it. We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
> that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different and
> that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
> lives than "Aida".
> I prefer Aida any day, but I respect who likes anything else, and if a given
> service is paid with public money the majority of the public has to be served,
> this is much worse if it is a company trying to make a profit, because
> the paying clients are the ones that mold these decissions.
So you're saying because wrestling is more popular than claassical music,
replacing
all publicly funded classical broadcasts with wrestling would be the pinnacle of
democracy?
Oh yes, and Mozart IS better than the Rolling Stones.
>
>
> If classical music will become an obscure pleasure of a few so be it, I believe
> that eventually people will rediscover the value of classical music and that
> eventually a lot of "pop" music will be considered classical because it
> undoubtly has artistic value.
I don't deny some of it has value, but this has
nothing to do with the pop "culture". But you ignore the fact that musical (among
other) tastes
are shaped, in part at least, by a few companies who couldn' t care less about
anything else
than making as much money as possible.
Bogdan
Michael Subotin
We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
> that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different and
> that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
> lives than "Aida".
--
mvsst3+@pitt{DOT}edu Replace {DOT} with a dot
Edward A. Cowan
> The whole process of vulgarization and dumbing down is, however,
> caused, stimulated and continued by large corporations, also owning
> mass media, who want nations full of simple-minded brain-dead
> consumption slaves mainly (or only) interested in pulp, pop, porn,
> sports and trendy expensive things, ideally in the same things all
> over the globe. Most politicians have a tendency to want what the
> perceived majority want in order to get elected so...
The Roman satirist Juvenal summed it up in the words "panem et
circenses" ("bread and circuses"), which in modern terms would be "fast
food and spectator sports" -- just what the dumbed-down masses want and,
in fact, need. An example: Here in the Dallas-Ft. Worth "Metroplex" last
week, the firing of a local football coach was deemed by the media --
all the major network stations and, I think, at least one independent
station -- so important as to preempt the 5:30pm CST network national
newscasts. And a couple of days later, the live coverage of the hiring
of a replacement coach was also deemed so important as to *interrupt*
the network newscasts during their reports on the upcoming New Hampshire
primaries. We get what we want whether we want to get it or not. <g>
-- E.A.C.
Johan van Veen
EM wrote:
> In Leiden, The Netherlands, we had, until recently, the possibility to
> hear foreign arts and classical radio stations on cable radio. The
> decision as to what stations are allowed on the cable, which has a
> limited capacity, has been delegated to a so called program council.
> This council consists of representatives of the population. These
> peoples' representatives decided in their infinite wisdom that there
> was too much classical music, which to them includes André Rieu or
> endless repeats of a Strauss waltz on a synthesizer, on the radio so
> they took the German public station WDR 3 (arts, classical music,
> intellectual stuff) and the British BBC 3 (mainly classical music) off
> the cable and replace these with a pop/rock and c&w (!) station
> respectively.
The criticism regarding people who obviously know nothing about about and
care even less about classical music is justified. Why should classical
music be elitist? Everything which some people know more about than others
- be it classical or rock music, or even football (AE: soccer) - is
elitist. So what? What gives people the right to decide what others should
hear?
But we should also be fair. The radio and tv stations play their role in
the whole process. Both BBC 3 and WDR 3 have in a way 'popularized' their
programmes in an attempt to be less 'elitist' and attract more listeners.
I have never believed that this is going to work. But by popularizing they
contribute to the trivialization of their programmes. It is the same
tendency you see everywhere. In an attempt to compete with commercial
radio and tv the public channels start to be like these. In doing so they
are in danger of losing their right of existence.
It is also the directors of public radio and tv who play their part in it.
Last week their was a report in a Belgian newspaper that the directors of
Belgian radio were considering fundamentally changing the classical
channel, or even to abolish it altogether. It will be interesting to see
what happens there.
--
Johan van Veen
Utrecht (Netherlands)
jvv...@casema.net
ubi deus ibi pax
jj
a mess, particularly in la belle province, that money spent *anywhere*
else would cause a backlash. I also understood it was a French-language
channel; another hot-button issue, funding or not.
BTW, the Winnipeg Ballet has been on Bravo.
jj
more weasely & undignified.
Marc Perman wrote:
>
> Raymond Hall <hallr...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
> >Marc Perman wrote:
> >>
> >> EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >But what can one do against the dumbing down in a dictatorship by the
> >> >majority who want pop, porn and soccer and certainly no "boring and
> >> >difficult" classical music?
> >> >
> >> >How is this situation elsewhere?
> >>
> >> Here in NYC we have plenty of pop, much less porn under the Giuliani
> >> administration, and hardly any soccer.
> >>
> >Three reasons to be thankful Giuliani is running for Senate against
> >Hillary. Things might change under a different mayor. You seem to have a
> >lot of baseball though, so NY can't be all bad.
>
> True, although Giuliani's frequent appearances at ballgames dressed in
> a NY Yankees uniform (Ok, he wears the cap and team jacket) struck me
> as rather undignified.
>
> Marc Perman
Andy Evans
( soviet realism anyone?).>>
faults of capitalism. We have lived for far too long with the illusion that
the licenced greed trumpeted by the forces of free enterprise is 'good for
us'. Such greed, apart from incidental flaws like destroying the planet
through rampant consumerism (not something we should entirely ignore
although most politicians seem happy to), is leading to the setting up of
global trading institutions with 'rules' that are coming uncomfortably close
to the sort of protectionism that typified the Soviet Union. Remember
Seattle a few months ago? When it comes to the arts, they traditionally did
well under 'protectionist' regimes like the Soviet Union which, surprise
surprise, protected them educationally and financially. It's now that the
famous ballet dancers and circus artists of the Soviet Union are taking to
the streets. I'm not saying I buy communism. I'm saying I just don't buy
capitalism either, and I'm getting very allergic to its perrenial and
incessant spin in my middle age.
>
> I don't mind to belong to a minority that loves classical music and I
> refuse to be judgamental about the taste of other people because I hate
> when somebody is judgamental about my own tastes ( how many of the
> writers in this heroic ng have not been labaled "elitists" for their
> passion for Mozart, Rossini, Verdi or Strauss?).
>
> In this particular case the majority has decided they don't want classical
> music, then so be it. We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
> that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones but that they are different
and
> that for many people out there "Satisfaction" is more relevant to their
> lives than "Aida".
> I prefer Aida any day, but I respect who likes anything else, and if a
given
> service is paid with public money the majority of the public has to be
served,
> this is much worse if it is a company trying to make a profit, because
> the paying clients are the ones that mold these decissions.
>
> If classical music will become an obscure pleasure of a few so be it, I
believe
> that eventually people will rediscover the value of classical music and
that
> eventually a lot of "pop" music will be considered classical because it
> undoubtly has artistic value.
>
> >How is this situation elsewhere?
>
No Name
>
>
>No Name wrote:
>> We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
>different [ ... ]
>
>BALONEY!! That IS the mistake: High culture IS better than the
>pop 'culture'.
How it is better? Why is better my excitment and sometimes even tears
when listening to Aida than the paroxism that invades somebody
listening to Mick Jagger? Why my happines and pleasure is better than
that of others?
"High culture" as you call it is just one way in which humans manifest
their artistic needs and I don't see a single objective reason to say
that one kind of manifestation is superior to others.
> When you say they are merely 'different', that
>CONSTITUTES the dumbing-down.
Why "dumbing down"? I know brilliant and cultivated people that love
pop music but can't stomach classical music, I also have friends that
can't live without Beethoven, Wagner or Stravinsky but have not read
any book bar the latest best seller. So who is dumber?
Why "classical music" is superior? It is just different, technically,
conceptually, I even conceed that even spiritually. If the greatest
aspiration of somebody is to have "drugs, sex and rock" I am nobody
to impose my values to that person, and since I believe in democracy
I accept that the majority could choose something different to what I
like. I just don't watch/read/listen to it.
> Some people have more refined taste
>than other people - they should not apologize for that.
How do define "refined"? And nobody is asking for apologies, but respect.
And in the moment I say "my passion is better and superior than yours"
I am showing very little refinment.
>
>I feel that much of this harmful process of continually seeking
>the lowest common denominator results from empty phrases of bad
>18th-century philosophy (like 'all men are created equal').
That is incorrect of course (genetic Engineering can probe that in
10 minutes), but what about if you say:
"All human beens are equal in front of the law". That was also said, and
I don't think it is bad philosophy. So if we have to vote between
stop classical music broadcasts and pop music proadcasts we would
have to live with the sad reality that we are in the side of the loosing
minority, but I would never dare to impose my views to others.
> The
>fact is there are smarter people and less-smart people.
To listen to classical music does not make anybody smarter or dumber.
To love classical music does not improve your IQ or your views
(otherwise all classical music composers would have been models
of good, compasionate, exemplar behaviour).
Classical music is just one of many forms Music uses to please us,
and we are part of the lucky minority that have such a beautiful
lover.
> There are
>many more stupid people than smart ones, and when everyone's
>opinion counts equally, you obtain the bad results which we
>presently observe.
>
>
And what is your proposition? To be ruled by a bunch of unelected
notables that will tell us what is good for us? Would you like
soviet USSR or McCarthy's USA?
Democracy is far from perfect, but it is the lesser evil because
the rights of each individual are respected (I know, I know, at least
in theory).
They can stop
classical music broadcasts, but I can always go and buy a CD, go to
a concert buy a video and if the situation is do bad, I can whistle.
The day any of these activities becomes illegal you and I have an
appointment to bring down the tyranny.
Enough said, Shostakovich awaits in my CD player.
PK
>
> but that is a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen
> ( soviet realism anyone?).>>
> I wouldn't write off communism unless you are fully acquainted with the many
> faults of capitalism. We have lived for far too long with the illusion that
> the licenced greed trumpeted by the forces of free enterprise is 'good for
> us'. Such greed, apart from incidental flaws like destroying the planet
> through rampant consumerism (not something we should entirely ignore
> although most politicians seem happy to), is leading to the setting up of
> global trading institutions with 'rules' that are coming uncomfortably close
> to the sort of protectionism that typified the Soviet Union. Remember
> Seattle a few months ago? When it comes to the arts, they traditionally did
> well under 'protectionist' regimes like the Soviet Union which, surprise
> surprise, protected them educationally and financially. It's now that the
> famous ballet dancers and circus artists of the Soviet Union are taking to
> the streets. I'm not saying I buy communism. I'm saying I just don't buy
> capitalism either, and I'm getting very allergic to its perrenial and
> incessant spin in my middle age.
I'm sorry, I know this is way out of the line of rmcr, but I
simply cannot let these things go unanswered.
Chronologically :
The "destroying of the planet" aspect is far worse in the
Soviet Union, plus all of the countries formerly occupied
(you should have seen the state in which the Soviets have
left their vast, military bases in these countries), simply
because the very idea of social control was banned. Have you
ever heard of the Nikitin trial? Do a search. Even now, it's
considered a betrayal to declare obvious and public things,
and you can be tried for it.
The global trading institutions with rules seem to me a
little better than no global trading institutions and no
rules altogether. This is a new straw man.
As for the arts, read, for instance, Ashkenazy's book about
it ("Beyond frontiers", Hamish Hamilton 1984). First and
foremost, the arts were "protected" and "supported" as
"shopping windows" for the system (which was literally sick
of competitive obsession in its relationship with the West).
Some arts were especially protected (music, ballet etc)
because they had no political content. Others were tolerated
rather than not, mostly for propaganda reasons. Otherwise,
generally speaking, the choice is between being
"over-protected" (censorship included) and "out in the
open".
The collapse of the state protection (in absolutely all
domains) is not due to the new system, but to what was left
of the old system. Nothing. It was a system that did not
produce goods, and therefore was not earning money to pay
for the state protection. The support of the arts (juste
like everything else) would have collapsed anyway, rather
sooner than later. If the Bolshoi, to quote one example, is
in the shape it is, it's because there is no money to pay
for it anymore, since an economy is to be reconstructed
where there was no economy to speak of. The Russians aren't
making a very good job of it, and it's a different problem,
but in the countries who work better, the situation of
state-supported arts is also better. Fiction has been
replaced with reality, and reality hurts.
And, as the last objection : the opposition between
"communism" and "capitalism" is a traditional, communist
propaganda trick. "Capitalism" is an economic notion,
"communism" is a political notion, both exclusively. Using
this opposition suggests that there is such a thing as a
communist economy (there isn't), and that capitalism is a
political system (it isn't). It creates an illusion of
"alternative" where there isn't any.
PK
David Grayshan
Unconstrained Communism = Unconstrained Capitalism = Totalitarianism (it hardly
matters who is running the show, does it?).
There is no virtue in any kind of extremism or fundamentalism, it is all tyranny.
There is plenty of tyranny to be found in the US today, just as there was in the
USSR and still is in Russia..... and as for US tyranny outside the USA, don't get
me started on that..... remember Sturgeon's Law? It is as valid today as when its
progenitor worded it.
Regards,
David.
Karen Mercedes
of these operas? I'm very curious about some of these "Glorifying the
Proletariat and the Indomitable Soviet Spirit" type operas by Khrennikov
(e.g., Matia), Inatschek (e.g., E Padtscheritsa - The Stepdaughter),
Khalminov (e.g, Optimistitscheskai Tragedii - Optimistic Tragedy),
Kreitnera (e.g., Tania), etc. Are these works all too propogandistic to
have any real artistic value? Or could it be possible that we'll start
seeing some of them turning up again in, say, 25 years as Nostalgia
pieces?
Karen Mercedes
=====
There is delight in singing,
tho' none hear Beside the singer.
- Walter Savage Landor
-----
MY WEB PAGE: http://www.radix.net/~dalila/index.html
MY NEIL SHICOFF PAGE: http://www.radix.net/~dalila/shicoff/shicoff.html
dtritter
of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
music appreciation, but history and civics as well. from what i've read
so far on this thread, it's quite apparent that wilde's observation that
education has had no effect whatever [fill in the blanks as to locus of
that vain effort] was eminently correct.
if one must reveal one's ignorance on the social construct of various
nations, there must be more appropriate newsgroups. at least i haven't
read here [recently] of the virtues of joe mccarthy and j edgar
crossdresser. or did i speak too soon?
dft
Andy Evans
> of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
> music appreciation, but history and civics as well.>>
the Royal Academy of Music and part of an Oxford history degree. Where you
do degrees in 'civics' I have no knowledge of, but if it's the USA I'd like
to know how much of the history of communism is in the syllabus.
> if one must reveal one's ignorance on the social construct of various
> nations, there must be more appropriate newsgroups>>
standards, blah blah.
Why do many people in what was the Soviet Union seek to restore communism?
Are they ignorant cretins? The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a
standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
samir ghiocel golescu
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Andy Evans wrote:
> but that is a lesser evil compared to be told what is good for us to listen
> ( soviet realism anyone?).>>
> I wouldn't write off communism unless you are fully acquainted with the many
> faults of capitalism. We have lived for far too long with the illusion that
> the licenced greed trumpeted by the forces of free enterprise is 'good for
> us'. Such greed, apart from incidental flaws like destroying the planet
> through rampant consumerism (not something we should entirely ignore
> although most politicians seem happy to), is leading to the setting up of
> global trading institutions with 'rules' that are coming uncomfortably close
> to the sort of protectionism that typified the Soviet Union. Remember
> Seattle a few months ago? When it comes to the arts, they traditionally did
> well under 'protectionist' regimes like the Soviet Union which, surprise
> surprise, protected them educationally and financially. It's now that the
> famous ballet dancers and circus artists of the Soviet Union are taking to
> the streets. I'm not saying I buy communism. I'm saying I just don't buy
> capitalism either, and I'm getting very allergic to its perrenial and
> incessant spin in my middle age.
As a man who experienced both societies, I have to repeat the truism that
capitalism sucks, but Communism (totalitarianism in general) sucks
infinitely more. There is simply no comparison between the two, even if,
for some individuals, the transition from one to another is difficult to
tragic. The famous ballet dancers are taking to the streets in the former
Soviet Union not because Russia became a capitalist country, but because,
right now, it is not horse, not pig, I'm afraid.
regards,
SG
Matthew B. Tepper
>
> The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
"Compassionate Conservatism?" * "Tight Slacks?" * "Jumbo Shrimp?"
Harry K. Thaw
EM wrote
>I think I need that bottle of Italian red vino now.
>
You mean 'European Community' blended red alcoholic beverage.
Andy Evans
It's pretty evident that the mood on this newsgroup is that we are between a
rock and a hard place when it comes to the two. I can't claim to have lived
under a communist regime, and I bow humbly to the opinions of those who
have. I studied Russian in school and university for a few years, visited
many Eastern blok countries, grew to respect Slav culture very greatly (I
have no allegience as such to 'communism', except that many of the Eastern
blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them), together with its
traditions and intelligence, and finally married a Serb, so my son is half
Serbian. I then had to live through ten years of the illegal and immoral
NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans, culminating in the bombing of my
wife's country and the resultant killing of some of her friends and
relatives. Finally, after my marriage had broken up during this period (my
country was, after all, at war with hers) I had to suffer the ultimate
indignity of this totally cynical NATO bombardment being referred to as 'The
First Humanitarian War in History'. Needless to say, I am deeply sceptical
of the whole way the Western alliances are going. It goes without saying
that my experiences are nowhere near the sufferings of many Americans who
had to go through Viet Nam.
>The famous ballet dancers are taking to the streets in the former Soviet
Union not because Russia became a capitalist country, but because,
right now, it is not horse, not pig, I'm afraid.>>
I'm sure that's true.
Thomas Deas
"Andy Evans" <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:zvFm4.11494$M47.125588@news1-hme0...
> > it's really quite wonderful to read the posts here, as if anyone cares,
> > of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
> > music appreciation, but history and civics as well.>>
> In random order you have been following the threads of a music degree from
> the Royal Academy of Music and part of an Oxford history degree.
Simon knows about Oxford.
Michael Subotin
> Why do many people in what was the Soviet Union seek to restore communism?
Not a very good rhetorical question, given that it has an answer and
a complicated one at that.
> Are they ignorant cretins?
Largely one or the other, plenty both.
> The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a
> standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
I went through what was, beyond 'special' schools, one of the better
high schools in the country. While mathematics were certainly taught on
a higher level than they are in American public schools, overall it was
nothing spectacular. Nationwide standards exceeded those in the US, but
general-curriculum schools maneuvered around them quite successfully --
extremely successfully by and large -- and none, to my knowledge,
approached in rigor the best private schools here. One could pay
compliments to select universities and music schools, but there's no
reason to romanticize latter-day Soviet mass education -- trust me.
To get back on topic and in response to your other post, friends in
Moscow and in my lately notorious hometown of Novosibirsk tell me
there's been a remarkable increase of interest in the arts over
the last few years. Classical groups are multiplying and virtually all
concerts sell out. I don't whether the Bolshoi Theater has indeed fallen
on hard times and how any of this translates into finances, but
classical music as such appears (suprisingly) to do better in Russia
than ever before. I refer you to M.Kaminski's reply for the rest.
Michael
Harry K. Thaw
Andy Evans wrote in message ...
> ... capitalism sucks, but Communism sucks infinitely more.
>
Who came up with the 'capitalism vs. soviet realism' thread? For
the last eight years in the U.S. we have been under the most
left-leaning, socialist, ANTI-capitalist regime this country
has ever suffered. Between politically-correct 'goodthink' and
the government harassing the manufacturers of legal products, we
are as close to Communism as I ever want to get. That's why
WHOEVER is ultimately the Republican candidate must be supported,
rather than let Gore continue dismantling America.
dtritter
>
[snip, snip, snip, but never enough...]
> we> are as close to Communism as I ever want to get. That's why
> WHOEVER is ultimately the Republican candidate must be supported,
> rather than let Gore continue dismantling America.
mr. thaw, evelyn nesbitt was a snare and a delusion too. it's quite
repulsive that you continue the pathology of this mental patient scores
of years after his demise...i do not support gore, but for rational
reasons, not this noxious unreason...
dft
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Stan White
dtritter wrote
>...i do not support gore, but for rational
>reasons,
>
You are right! Clinton and Gore have moved this country far
toward the socialist ideal.
Jim Curtis
dtritter <dtri...@bway.net> wrote in message
news:389B13C7...@bway.net...
f joe mccarthy and j edgar
> crossdresser. or did i speak too soon?
I'm thinking of composing an opera celebrating the life of the bravest, most
patriotic and greatest U.S. politician of this century....Joe McCarthy. I
might write Hoover into the script for comedy relief...although he was a
great commie hater also and I'm still not certain that the whole
crossdressing thing isn't an invention of the lefty media. I have this scene
imagined where he is in the forest and all of the creatures of the forest
floor gather around and he sings them something purty.
Jim Curtis
> standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger
bars.
And now those students wish they could get a job flipping burgers.
>
>
samir ghiocel golescu
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000, Andy Evans wrote:
> > As a man who experienced both societies, I have to repeat the truism that
> capitalism sucks, but Communism --totalitarianism in general--sucks
infinitely more. >>
> It's pretty evident that the mood on this newsgroup is that we are between a
> rock and a hard place when it comes to the two. I can't claim to have lived
> under a communist regime, and I bow humbly to the opinions of those who
> have. I studied Russian in school and university for a few years, visited
> many Eastern blok countries, grew to respect Slav culture very greatly
Thank you for your civil reply. You don't have to bow to "our"
opinions... many of us, Eastern Europeans, as you said, regret Communism
and this is very sad for me. It is not ignorance or cretinism *only*, it
is something much worse, a deterioration of the simple humanly healthy
instincts... imagine a Germany where Nazis governed for 70 years and
people were induced to believe that everything is happening is normal,
good and desirable... I am not a politician, neither a specialist in
history, but I have to say, by first-hand experience, that it was
nothing, NOTHING at all good about Communism, as it was NOTHING good about
Nazism. That people were enjoying art in Communism, that a Furtwangler was
conducting in the Nazi Germany, these were things that were happening
despite the essence of the regimes themselves... because no Earthly power
of darkness is perfect...
I do respect the Slav culture and I deplore that some of my compatriots,
for political reasons, despise everything Russian. Another truism:
Tchaikovsky was as little a Communist as Beethoven was a Nazi...
Regarding the Serb tragedy, I share your compassion for the fate of
individual Serb people that suffered because of "Milo"'s paranoia, but I
do not blame, at least I do not blame *primarily*, the Western powers for
what happened. Clinton, Major & Co. made major, some of them tragic,
errors, but the root of the whole tragedy can be found within the Serb
regime itself, IMUninformedO.
regards,
SG
revenant
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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Jim Curtis
Harry K. Thaw <th...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:87fmnc$d6a4$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
. That's why
> WHOEVER is ultimately the Republican candidate must be supported,
> rather than let Gore continue dismantling America.
Perhaps, but McCain has let slip some collectivist jargon that would
probably make Ted Kennedy blush. No wonder the media is so in love with him.
>
>
BubbaMike
Indeed! Anyone to the left of Mark Hanna should be deported to Communist
Germany! We must beware the Red Korean Troops now stationed in Canada
preparing to invade us, rape our woman and childern and force Communism
upon us! Watch out for the black helicopter and arm yourself before it is
to late. Remember avoid all foreign music it is a plot to polute the vital
bodily fluids that make the American Male so manly. The polution of these
fluids is part of the commie plot lead by Clinton and the Ultra-liberal
Carpetbager Bush of Texas.
Watch Red Dawn and find out the truth!
Bubba
--
"The perfect computer has been developed. You just feed in your problems
and they never come out again." -- Al Goodman
Edward A. Cowan
> I guess we can't hope that the sacking and hiring of the old and new
> conductor (respectively) op the Dallas Symphony Orch. would draw the
> same media attention?
I'm afraid not...
-- E.A.C.
PK
>
> Andy Evans wrote: <...>
>
> > Why do many people in what was the Soviet Union seek to restore communism?
>
> Not a very good rhetorical question, given that it has an answer and
> a complicated one at that.
>
> > Are they ignorant cretins?
>
> Largely one or the other, plenty both.
>
> > standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
>
> high schools in the country. While mathematics were certainly taught on
> a higher level than they are in American public schools, overall it was
> nothing spectacular. Nationwide standards exceeded those in the US, but
> general-curriculum schools maneuvered around them quite successfully --
> extremely successfully by and large -- and none, to my knowledge,
> approached in rigor the best private schools here. One could pay
> compliments to select universities and music schools, but there's no
> reason to romanticize latter-day Soviet mass education -- trust me.
>
> To get back on topic and in response to your other post, friends in
> Moscow and in my lately notorious hometown of Novosibirsk tell me
> there's been a remarkable increase of interest in the arts over
> the last few years. Classical groups are multiplying and virtually all
> concerts sell out. I don't whether the Bolshoi Theater has indeed fallen
> on hard times and how any of this translates into finances, but
> classical music as such appears (suprisingly) to do better in Russia
> than ever before. I refer you to M.Kaminski's reply for the rest.
Spassiba, Mikhaïl. The problem is, Mr. Evans doesn't want to
read, nor think about my "reply for the rest" and answers in
a typical newtongue (is that the original for "novlangue"?
I've never read 1984 in English).
PK
PK
>
> > As a man who experienced both societies, I have to repeat the truism that
> It's pretty evident that the mood on this newsgroup is that we are between a
> rock and a hard place when it comes to the two. I can't claim to have lived
> under a communist regime, and I bow humbly to the opinions of those who
> have. I studied Russian in school and university for a few years, visited
> have no allegience as such to 'communism', except that many of the Eastern
> blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them)
The is no "or". All of them had it forced on them. Without
exception.
> together with its
> traditions and intelligence, and finally married a Serb, so my son is half
> Serbian. I then had to live through ten years of the illegal and immoral
> NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans
Any details about that, maybe? Something about Milosevic
being a NATO agent?
PK
PK
>
> > it's really quite wonderful to read the posts here, as if anyone cares,
> > of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
> > music appreciation, but history and civics as well.>>
> In random order you have been following the threads of a music degree from
> do degrees in 'civics' I have no knowledge of, but if it's the USA I'd like
> to know how much of the history of communism is in the syllabus.
> > if one must reveal one's ignorance on the social construct of various
> > nations, there must be more appropriate newsgroups>>
> All Hail, O wise one, bearer of the truth, sole arbitor of educational
> standards, blah blah.
> standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
I'm really sorry you didn't care to answer any of my
arguments.
PK
Simon Roberts
: "Andy Evans" <arts.ps...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
: news:zvFm4.11494$M47.125588@news1-hme0...
: > > it's really quite wonderful to read the posts here, as if anyone cares,
: > > of a collection of mental delinquents, who managed not only to fail
: > > music appreciation, but history and civics as well.>>
: > In random order you have been following the threads of a music degree from
: > the Royal Academy of Music and part of an Oxford history degree.
: Simon knows about Oxford.
Even spent some of my time there studying Soviet bloc (as it then was)
history, but shall, for now, stay quiet....
Simon
Thomas Deas
"Jim Curtis" <jcur...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:iEKm4.864$si3....@news.uswest.net...
Who cross-posted to r.m.o?
Brian Cantin
> Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
>
> Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
and regimentation the students suffer.
--
Brian Cantin
An advocate of poisonous individualism.
To reply via email, replace "dcantin" with "bcantin".
Brian Cantin
<snip>
> Finally, after my marriage had broken up during this period (my
> country was, after all, at war with hers) I had to suffer the
> ultimate indignity of this totally cynical NATO bombardment being
> referred to as 'The First Humanitarian War in History'. Needless to
> say, I am deeply sceptical of the whole way the Western alliances
> are going. It goes without saying that my experiences are nowhere
> near the sufferings of many Americans who had to go through Viet
> Nam.
If you give a politician, any politician, a dollar he will use the
money to kill or enslave somebody. While he is doing the dirty
deed, he will use another of your dollars to convince you that
he did it for your benifit.
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
only instance I can think of, off hand, of "government
harassing" manufacturers of (alas) still legal products.
"Harry K. Thaw" wrote:
>
> Andy Evans wrote in message ...
> > ... capitalism sucks, but Communism sucks infinitely more.
> >
> Who came up with the 'capitalism vs. soviet realism' thread? For
> the last eight years in the U.S. we have been under the most
> left-leaning, socialist, ANTI-capitalist regime this country
> has ever suffered. Between politically-correct 'goodthink' and
> the government harassing the manufacturers of legal products, we
> are as close to Communism as I ever want to get. That's why
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)
period? (Or is that, perhaps, what you want?) "Let people
pay for whatever education they want" only works if everyone
possesses the financial means to do so. Most of us do not -
what would you suggest we pay WITH? Our school systems
(many of them) may be in a sorry state these days, and the
quality of education they provide may not always be very
high, but at least it's SOMETHING. You would prefer,
perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of course, you very
well might - they're easier to control when they haven't
been exposed to rational thought.) One of the greatest
prizes of our democracy is the guarantee of an education -
we may fall short of the Jeffersonian ideal of "a free
people, fully informed", but everyone capable of learning at
least has the chance to do so!
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
>
Mark D. Lew
> I'm sorry, I know this is way out of the line of rmcr, but I
> simply cannot let these things go unanswered.
>
> [...]
>
> [...] First and
> foremost, the arts were "protected" and "supported" as
> "shopping windows" for the system (which was literally sick
> of competitive obsession in its relationship with the West).
Well, as long as we're running off topic, I must point out that the arts,
while they may have been figuratively sick, were not literally sick.
mdl
Mark D. Lew
<dca...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
Public education is only socialist if you assume it exists to serve the
students and their parents, but that is a false assumption. Students are
not the beneficiary of the education system, any more than criminals are
the beneficiary of the justice system. Public education exists to serve
the public -- specifically, that public's interest in seeing that everyone
else in society is "educated".
There are good reasons to believe that education/indoctrination of others
in society is a useful service for a government to provide to its public.
There are also good reasons to believe that such education/indoctrination
is inappropriate in a free society. But neither of these is served by
pretending that education is a benefits program for citizens with children.
This is why those voucher ideas are so stupid. They simply take an
institution which still retains some semblance of a public service, and
turn it into an unmitigated entitlement.
mdl
dtritter
[i once met sterling hayden, a terrific guy]
you've identified the enemas of mrka.
but what about those lurking to detroy the brits?
poster bob sims wails about them, but in the immortal words of the late
walt kelly, "we have met the enemy and he is us."
sims exhibits a selfless disregard for his vital bodily fluids. as to
the solids, he gives them to us in profusion.
dtritter
>
> "Legal products" like cigarettes, I presume? That's the
> only instance I can think of, off hand, of "government
> harassing" manufacturers of (alas) still legal products.
i guess yiou must be talking about the harassment of subsidizing tobacco
farmers...surely albert gore jr. knows something about that.
David Grayshan
Andy Evans
> read, nor think about my "reply for the rest" and answers in
> a typical newtongue (is that the original for "novlangue"?
> I've never read 1984 in English). >>
I'm completely open to opinions, including yours and of course Mikhail
Subotins'(good post). I originally posted in a rather angry mood and didn't
think too hard about what I said, otherwise I could have made a lot more
sense, as several other posters have reminded me. Your assumption about 1984
is diametrically opposed to the reality. That particular book was about the
indoctrination of the population by the government. I've spent the last ten
years - like a few but not many Brits - outraged at NATO's actions in the
Balkans. I've had to live alongside the rest of the population - including
some good friends - who have been 'indoctrinated' by the continuous forces
of spin put out by Jamie O'Shea at the NATO press office. So you can call be
a freethinker if you like but NOT, if you please, an uninformed parasite of
the state.
PK
Mybe my formulation was awkward and unclear, but I most
certainly meant the system to be "sick", not the arts
(though, some of it...).
PK
PK
Do I hear an interesting echo of "Another brick in the wall"
here?
PK
David Grayshan
bitterly, I am forced to agree with you, since you are clearly both stupid and
ignorant.
Twit.
David.
Brian Cantin wrote:
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <o...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
> >
> > Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
>
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
>
David Grayshan
politician with presidential ambitions in disguise: for it is a
characteristic of this person that he cannot spell, and this gives your
secret identity away:
Brian Cantin wrote:
> (Snip) benifit.
Need I tell you how to spell it?(Snip)
David Grayshan
Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque) wrote:
> Yes, but would it not also bring an end to education, period? (Or is
> that, perhaps, what you want?)
*Of course* that is what they want. A nation of illiterates, a true "Great
Unwashed*, is that much easier to control and manipulate.....
> (Snip) You would prefer, perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of
> course, you very
> well might - they're easier to control when they haven't been exposed to
> rational thought.) (Snip)
You say it yourself. If you want to understand what is going on you have to
look at it from the viewpoint of those who (want to) rule. They want a
bunch of financially hyperactive politically docile real-estate agents for
a population. That is what they are trying to develop and they are
succeeding admirably. If you try to look at what these people want with
some idealistic-coloured glasses on you will never understand what is going
on. Think "flat, two-dimensional, power-oriented mind" and you will get
there.....
Regards,
David.
PK
>
> > Spassiba, Mikhaïl. The problem is, Mr. Evans doesn't want to
Just before all this is kicked out of rmcr for crossing the
lines, I'll try to be very serious again : first and
foremost, it seems it would be useful for you to learn
something about Orwell's intentions in writing 1984, and the
realities he meant to describe, realities you apparently do
not know a lot about. Then, I shall remind you of a very
simple fact that seems to have escaped your attention :
besides the "totalitarian indoctrination" of Jamie Shea's
daily press conferences (I understand you have a very strong
personal agenda here, so I won't get into a detailed
discussion of the Balkan situation, it seems to be useless
anyway, and even farther from rmcr's preoccupations) the
western citizen had an ample and free access to every other
source of information about the conflict, including intense
Serb propaganda, much of it relayed by the western media
(while the opposite wasn't true). So, your comparison with
the closed world described in 1984 seems just a tiny little
bit excessive.
I understand that the other arguments I have advanced in my
former post are of no interest to you. I'm sorry about that,
but what can one do.
PK
Andy Evans
Eastern blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them)
> The is no "or". All of them had it forced on them. Without exception.>>
<< NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans>>
> Any details about that, maybe? >>
Croatia and Serbia sat down at a table (figuratively or literally) and
discussed how to divide up the Balkans. While Croatia (old ally of Germany)
was happy to guarantee European integration and commercial rights, Serbia
was not. Commercial rights would include crucially important Oil and mineral
issues (minerals in Kossovo). The oil issue would include future oil and gas
pipelines up to Europe from the Southern NATO countries - Turkey and Greece.
If you look at the geology of the region(here, a map helps see what this is
about, and bear in mind that going up the Danube encounters large cliffs for
part of the way), such pipelines would go through Kossovo and Bosnia. NATO
got a better 'deal' from the Moslems, so they went with them and "contrived"
the whole war strategically to look as if it was all Serbia's fault (read
"The Prince" on conquering and occupying countries - it's almost word for
word what NATO did). Of course Milosovic did use power and aggression and
his own part of the army did commit atrocities - nobody is denying this. It
may help to see the Balkans as two wars - first the civil war in which
Milosovic took action within what was, of course, his own country,
Yugoslavia, and at other points attacked parts of Croatia. Remember here
that Croatia ethnically cleansed all the Serbs out of the Kraina and the
West did not bat an eyelid. The second war was the war where NATO was the
aggressor. This is the war NATO does not want us to understand too well, and
it is this war that has been covered by elaborate spin from Jamie O'Shea.
The goals for this second 'strategic' war were a land corridor for the free
passage of NATO troops (troops the correct word, not 'peacekeepers') from
N.Europe down to Greece and Turkey, commercial access to the Balkans, and
in-principle agreements for oil and gas pipelines. Serbia was placed in an
impossible situiation in this 'second' war, and constantly maintained in
interviews with Western TV stations that it was defending itself, which was
of course the case. Its crime? Partly, to be a Non-Aligned Nation. The
Non-Aligned group, as you probably know, includes China, India, Libya....
Friends of the USA? I think not. It's not easy to determine which the USA
can't stand the most - communists or non-aligned powers. In terms of trade,
Seattle showed that countries non-aligned with its trading interests were
anathema. It could be assumed that where America's trade goes, its politics
go. That's what I mean about Oil in the Balkan war. Think about
it...........
Brian Cantin
> Yes, but would it not also bring an end to education,
> period?
Who do you think pays for education now? Does it come from
free from heavens like manna?
> (Or is that, perhaps, what you want?) "Let people
> pay for whatever education they want" only works if everyone
> possesses the financial means to do so. Most of us do not -
> what would you suggest we pay WITH?
If you were not paying for state supported schools, what would
you do with the money?
> Our school systems
> (many of them) may be in a sorry state these days, and the
> quality of education they provide may not always be very
> high, but at least it's SOMETHING. You would prefer,
> perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of course, you very
> well might - they're easier to control when they haven't
> been exposed to rational thought.)
Let's see. You support a system where money is coerced from people to
support an educational system where control taken away from those that
are paying. There are also laws that make it compulsary for children
to attend. So, you want to accuse me of wanting to control people?
Brian Cantin
> In article <wk66w4x...@earthlink.net>, Brian Cantin
> <dca...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> > public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> > Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> > standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> > and regimentation the students suffer.
>
> Public education is only socialist if you assume it exists to serve the
> students and their parents, but that is a false assumption. Students are
> not the beneficiary of the education system, any more than criminals are
> the beneficiary of the justice system. Public education exists to serve
> the public -- specifically, that public's interest in seeing that everyone
> else in society is "educated".
>
> There are good reasons to believe that education/indoctrination of others
> in society is a useful service for a government to provide to its public.
> There are also good reasons to believe that such education/indoctrination
> is inappropriate in a free society. But neither of these is served by
> pretending that education is a benefits program for citizens with children.
>
> This is why those voucher ideas are so stupid. They simply take an
> institution which still retains some semblance of a public service, and
> turn it into an unmitigated entitlement.
>
> mdl
I am not assuming that public schools are there to benifit the
students. Quite the contary, I think you have identified the issue.
Public schools exist to indoctrinate students. Both the history of
the development of public education and ongoing direction of the
system show what the goals are. The reason that public schools do
such a poor job of what is ordinarily thought of as education is that
education is not a goal.
If vouchers were implemented, the goverment would use funding as an
excuse to extend even more control over private schools.
Andy Evans
content out of your posts, PK, which you will find makes up quite a lot of
them (you may want to think about the impression you make on other people),
then I'll try and deal with what remains.
Then, I shall remind you of a very simple fact that seems to have escaped
your attention>>
> besides the "totalitarian indoctrination" (your words, PK not mine) of
Jamie Shea's daily press conferences (I understand you have a very strong
personal agenda here, so I won't get into a detailed discussion of the
here PK) the western citizen had an ample and free access to every other
source of information about the conflict, including intense
Serb propaganda, much of it relayed by the western media (while the opposite
wasn't true). >>
'we have the best newspapers in the world, the best TV in the world' etc.,
and no doubt it's the same in the USA. During the Balkans war I watched the
newscasts daily. The Serb spokesmen were treated extremely rudely, though
they remained quiet and composed and spoke a lot of sense. At one point
Kirst Walk laughed patronisingly in the face of one of them and said "can
you possibly be saying that the BBC is not telling the facts about this
war?". The BBC, apart from including a number of these patronising
interviews, did nothing in its programmes or on its website to give a full
and fair account of the Serb side of the war. To be expected? Yes, i think
so. Remember that there is theoretical state control of anything in terms of
Govt. notices being served on any information assumed to threaten national
security. As for Serbia, the TV follows the government line, so what's new.
The BBC followed the NATO press office line. Except that again the BBC would
patronisingly preface all reports from correspondants in Serbia with the
words "The Serbian Govt. has controlled all news reports including this one.
They have not changed anything" (or words to that effect). Enough said? can
we put this topic to sleep now? Andy
Roland van Gaalen
: Money rules everywhere. The unaccetable side of capitalism?
Yes "money rules" and this means that an _unprecendented_ variety of those
wonderful historical recordings is available in major cities all over the
world. (To understand how this works, I recommend that you read the famous
essay by F.A. Hayek on the role of prices in conveying information in a
market economy.)
I don't think that this would be possible in an economy ruled by
central planners or the kind of democratic committees that just decided to
abolish your favorite classical radio stations. (Also see The Road to
Serfdom, also by Hayek).
As regards the dumbing down of Leiden -- much of this town's fame is
due to the university, but its population is notoriously stupid anyway.
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
Andy Evans
communism - I find it hard to support any politicians to be honest. I have
just been worn down by ten years of incessant NATO spin against Serbia, a
country of intelligent people who largely did not support Milosovic and a
country which in the final analysis was very badly treated by the West (yes,
partly through the actions of Milosovic, but also because of NATO strategic
interests in the Balkans and the still simmering embers of a doctrinaire
opposition to any people with a communist government. This applies accross
the globe, viz Cuba and all the countries where the USA has supported
criminal right wing regimes which had the goal of stamping out communism. My
sympathy is for the people of communist regimes, not the politicians).
Michael Subotin <th...@shalt.not.spam> wrote in message
news:389B4F...@shalt.not.spam...
> Andy Evans wrote: <...>
>
> > Why do many people in what was the Soviet Union seek to restore
communism?
>
> Not a very good rhetorical question, given that it has an answer and
> a complicated one at that.
>
> > Are they ignorant cretins?
>
> Largely one or the other, plenty both.
>
> > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a
> > standard of education which made many US high-schools look like burger
bars.
>
> I went through what was, beyond 'special' schools, one of the better
> high schools in the country. While mathematics were certainly taught on
> a higher level than they are in American public schools, overall it was
> nothing spectacular. Nationwide standards exceeded those in the US, but
> general-curriculum schools maneuvered around them quite successfully --
> extremely successfully by and large -- and none, to my knowledge,
> approached in rigor the best private schools here. One could pay
> compliments to select universities and music schools, but there's no
> reason to romanticize latter-day Soviet mass education -- trust me.
>
> To get back on topic and in response to your other post, friends in
> Moscow and in my lately notorious hometown of Novosibirsk tell me
> there's been a remarkable increase of interest in the arts over
> the last few years. Classical groups are multiplying and virtually all
> concerts sell out. I don't whether the Bolshoi Theater has indeed fallen
> on hard times and how any of this translates into finances, but
> classical music as such appears (suprisingly) to do better in Russia
> than ever before. I refer you to M.Kaminski's reply for the rest.
>
> Michael
> --
> mvsst3+@pitt{DOT}edu Replace {DOT} with a dot
Thomas Deas
"PK" <pro...@cybercable.fr> wrote in message
news:389C1505...@cybercable.fr...
> "Mark D. Lew" wrote:
> >
> > In article <389AEB8F...@cybercable.fr>, PK <pro...@cybercable.fr>
wrote:
> >
> > > I'm sorry, I know this is way out of the line of rmcr, but I
> > > simply cannot let these things go unanswered.
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > [...] First and
> > > foremost, the arts were "protected" and "supported" as
> > > "shopping windows" for the system (which was literally sick
> > > of competitive obsession in its relationship with the West).
> >
> > Well, as long as we're running off topic, I must point out that the
arts,
> > while they may have been figuratively sick, were not literally sick.
>
> Mybe my formulation was awkward and unclear,
Not at all.
PK
>
> I have no allegience as such to 'communism', except that many of the
> Eastern blok countries adopted it or had it forced on them)
> > The is no "or". All of them had it forced on them. Without exception.>>
> Excluding the Russian Revolution, I think you will find.....
The "Russian Revolution", as you call the bolshevik "coup",
was just as much forced on the Russian people who has
expressed their will in the first and only free election to
the Constituant, dissolved by force by the Bolsheviks. And I
don't know what you mean by "you will find" - there is none.
> << NATO strategic manipulation of the Balkans>>
> > Any details about that, maybe? >>
> Yes, with pleasure. My take on the Balkans is that at the start NATO,
> Croatia and Serbia sat down at a table (figuratively or literally)
Literally? Where and when, could you tell me? If you cannot,
all the rest of your story falls to pieces as a pure
political fiction, ignoring bare, historical facts.
> and
> discussed how to divide up the Balkans. While Croatia (old ally of Germany)
> was happy to guarantee European integration and commercial rights, Serbia
> was not. Commercial rights would include crucially important Oil and mineral
> issues (minerals in Kossovo). The oil issue would include future oil and gas
> pipelines up to Europe from the Southern NATO countries - Turkey and Greece.
> If you look at the geology of the region(here, a map helps see what this is
> about, and bear in mind that going up the Danube encounters large cliffs for
> part of the way), such pipelines would go through Kossovo and Bosnia. NATO
> got a better 'deal' from the Moslems, so they went with them and "contrived"
> the whole war strategically to look as if it was all Serbia's fault (read
> "The Prince" on conquering and occupying countries - it's almost word for
> word what NATO did). Of course Milosovic did use power and aggression and
> his own part of the army did commit atrocities - nobody is denying this. It
> may help to see the Balkans as two wars - first the civil war in which
> Milosovic took action within what was, of course, his own country,
> Yugoslavia, and at other points attacked parts of Croatia. Remember here
> that Croatia ethnically cleansed all the Serbs out of the Kraina and the
> West did not bat an eyelid.
Formerly, the West did not bat an eyelid when the Serbs
massacred in Vukovar and Srebrenica.
> The second war was the war where NATO was the
> aggressor. This is the war NATO does not want us to understand too well, and
> it is this war that has been covered by elaborate spin from Jamie O'Shea.
> The goals for this second 'strategic' war were a land corridor for the free
> passage of NATO troops (troops the correct word, not 'peacekeepers') from
> N.Europe down to Greece and Turkey, commercial access to the Balkans, and
> in-principle agreements for oil and gas pipelines. Serbia was placed in an
> impossible situiation in this 'second' war, and constantly maintained in
> interviews with Western TV stations that it was defending itself, which was
> of course the case. Its crime? Partly, to be a Non-Aligned Nation. The
> Non-Aligned group, as you probably know, includes China, India, Libya....
> Friends of the USA? I think not. It's not easy to determine which the USA
> can't stand the most - communists or non-aligned powers. In terms of trade,
> Seattle showed that countries non-aligned with its trading interests were
> anathema. It could be assumed that where America's trade goes, its politics
> go. That's what I mean about Oil in the Balkan war. Think about
> it...........
And, of course, nothing happened in Kossovo prior to that,
etc, etc...
I'm sorry to say that, but this is all sheer nonsense which
should be answered almost phrase by phrase. Not to occupy
this group by a detailed account of what has actually
happened, I most strongly recommend the BBC documentary
called "Yugoslavia : the suicide of a Nation", where the
actors speak, and tell quite a different story.
PK
PK
>
> If we cut the "I'm so much more intelligent and well informed than you"
> content out of your posts, PK, which you will find makes up quite a lot of
> them (you may want to think about the impression you make on other people),
> then I'll try and deal with what remains.
Any quotes?
> Then, I shall remind you of a very simple fact that seems to have escaped
> your attention>>
> (language here, please, PK)
> > besides the "totalitarian indoctrination" (your words, PK not mine) of
> Jamie Shea's daily press conferences (I understand you have a very strong
> personal agenda here, so I won't get into a detailed discussion of the
> Balkan situation, it seems to be useless anyway (sigh, sigh, language again
> here PK) the western citizen had an ample and free access to every other
> source of information about the conflict, including intense
> Serb propaganda, much of it relayed by the western media (while the opposite
> wasn't true). >>
> This is all facile stuff. In Britain we have to live with the daily groan of
> 'we have the best newspapers in the world, the best TV in the world' etc.,
> and no doubt it's the same in the USA. During the Balkans war I watched the
> newscasts daily. The Serb spokesmen were treated extremely rudely, though
> they remained quiet and composed and spoke a lot of sense.
Especially Mr Goran Matic, pretending that the Kossovars
kill themselves and run from NATO bombs?
> At one point
> Kirst Walk laughed patronisingly in the face of one of them and said "can
> you possibly be saying that the BBC is not telling the facts about this
> war?". The BBC, apart from including a number of these patronising
> interviews, did nothing in its programmes or on its website to give a full
> and fair account of the Serb side of the war. To be expected? Yes, i think
> so. Remember that there is theoretical state control of anything in terms of
> Govt. notices being served on any information assumed to threaten national
> security. As for Serbia, the TV follows the government line, so what's new.
> The BBC followed the NATO press office line. Except that again the BBC would
> patronisingly preface all reports from correspondants in Serbia with the
> words "The Serbian Govt. has controlled all news reports including this one.
> They have not changed anything" (or words to that effect). Enough said? can
> we put this topic to sleep now? Andy
It's never been awake, really.
PK
PK
>
> Thanks for a detailed and informative post. I am not a supporter of
> communism - I find it hard to support any politicians to be honest. I have
> just been worn down by ten years of incessant NATO spin against Serbia, a
> country of intelligent people who largely did not support Milosovic
It must be the reason why they systematically vote for him
and for Seselj.
PK
Thomas Deas
> Andy Evans wrote:
> >
> > > Spassiba, Mikhaïl. The problem is, Mr. Evans doesn't want to
> > > read, nor think about my "reply for the rest" and answers in
> > > a typical newtongue (is that the original for "novlangue"?
> > > I've never read 1984 in English). >>
> > Oh, come on, be serious. I don't read all posts because one simply can't
but
> > I'm completely open to opinions, including yours and of course Mikhail
> > Subotins'(good post). I originally posted in a rather angry mood and
didn't
> > think too hard about what I said, otherwise I could have made a lot more
> > sense, as several other posters have reminded me. Your assumption about
1984
> > is diametrically opposed to the reality. That particular book was about
the
> > indoctrination of the population by the government. I've spent the last
ten
> > years - like a few but not many Brits - outraged at NATO's actions in
the
> > Balkans.
More than you think, Andy.
I've had to live alongside the rest of the population - including
> > some good friends - who have been 'indoctrinated' by the continuous
forces
> > of spin put out by Jamie O'Shea at the NATO press office. So you can
call be
> > a freethinker if you like but NOT, if you please, an uninformed parasite
of
> > the state.
>
> Just before all this is kicked out of rmcr for crossing the
> lines, I'll try to be very serious again : first and
> foremost, it seems it would be useful for you to learn
> something about Orwell's intentions in writing 1984, and the
> realities he meant to describe, realities you apparently do
> not know a lot about. Then, I shall remind you of a very
> simple fact that seems to have escaped your attention :
> besides the "totalitarian indoctrination" of Jamie Shea's
> daily press conferences (I understand you have a very strong
> personal agenda here, so I won't get into a detailed
> discussion of the Balkan situation, it seems to be useless
> anyway, and even farther from rmcr's preoccupations)
That smacks of the 'why are the Jews always moaning about the holocaust'
line. I have no personal connection with the Balkans, but I was appalled at
the NATO campaign, which combined provocation and facilitation of ethnic
cleansing with an insufferably arrogant disregard for both humanitarian laws
and diplomatic convention.
the
> western citizen had an ample and free access to every other
> source of information about the conflict, including intense
> Serb propaganda,
Don't forget we bombed their TV studios because nice Tony and nice Madeleine
didn't want anyone to hear what they said; also that Blair slandered John
Simpson under cover of parliamentary privilege...
much of it relayed by the western media
> (while the opposite wasn't true).
You mean the numerous independent Yugoslav TV stations don't exist? You mean
no-one in Belgrade has satellite access to BBC and CNN? When speaking of
propaganda, bear in mind that the Serbs didn't really need to lie about
anything; the schools and hospitals and market-places and factories and
buses and trains *were* being bombed.
So, your comparison with
> the closed world described in 1984 seems just a tiny little
> bit excessive.
>
> I understand that the other arguments I have advanced in my
> former post are of no interest to you. I'm sorry about that,
> but what can one do.
Read this:
jacqueline laroche
Brian Cantin wrote:Let's see. You support a system where money is coerced
from people to
> support an educational system where control taken away from those that
> are paying. There are also laws that make it compulsary for children
> to attend. So, you want to accuse me of wanting to control people?
>
> --
> Brian Cantin
> An advocate of poisonous individualism.
> To reply via email, replace "dcantin" with "bcantin".
let's see now. cantin wants to pay taxes for school s and control them.
does he also want to pay taxes for defense and control our armed forces
and how they train, purchase wage war, and the like. i think the last guy
that had control like that was a fella named stalin. or was it hitler? or
was it napoleon? whoops, almost forgot good old fidel.
one of the blessings of a democracy is that you give up a certain amount
of power for the good of all of us. don't like that "good." turn the
rascals out and get someone you like...of course there's always that
desert isle.
Peter T. Daniels
society in which education was limited to the elite who could afford it.
David Grayshan wrote:
>
> Since you are clearly a product of the system of which you complain so
> bitterly, I am forced to agree with you, since you are clearly both stupid and
> ignorant.
>
> Twit.
>
> David.
>
> Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <o...@earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > > Andy Evans wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > > > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
> > >
> > > Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
> >
> > US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> > public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> > Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> > standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> > and regimentation the students suffer.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net
PK
>
> You mean the numerous independent Yugoslav TV stations don't exist? You mean
> no-one in Belgrade has satellite access to BBC and CNN? When speaking of
> propaganda, bear in mind that the Serbs didn't really need to lie about
> anything; the schools and hospitals and market-places and factories and
> buses and trains *were* being bombed.
Just to be short : could you tell me why, seven months after
the end of the bombings, the Yugoslav authorities haven't
published any numbers of civilian casualties provoked by
these bombings, whereas they have recently published the
numbers of military human losses : around 500. It would seem
much more useful for them, for propaganda purposes, to
demonstrate the criminal deeds of NATO, bombing "schools,
hospitals, market places", as you say. And yet, they didn't.
Their last official declarations on the subject were
contradictory (the ministry of FA spoke, in June, of
"thousands of civilian victims", whereas Milosevic himself
deplored, exactly at the same time, "about a thousand"; the
same document from the ministry of FA which pretends there
were "thousands", gives detailed information - "the most
dramatic cases" - about some 600 civilian victims, including
the 150 Albanian refugees mistakenly bombed by NATO).
Nothing else has been said by Belgrade ever since.
At the same time, more than 2000 bodies of Albanians have
been digged up by the Hague Tribunal in Kosovo, which
apparently represent less than a fifth of the presumed
victims of Serb terror.
PK
Thomas Deas
1. There is similar debate about numbers of Nazi victims. 4 million? 6
million? Neither figure exonerates the Nazis.
If you follow the link I gave you earlier, it includes some sample names of
civilian victims, and other details. I can't answer for Yugoslav govt policy
on giving numbers. As I say, it's scarcely the issue.
2. You ignore non-fatal injuries. These are much more common among bombing
victims than among those harrassed on the ground by Serb or KLA forces.
Comparison of numbers of *dead* does not give the whole picture. Besides,
this is not a competition. NATO claimed humanitarian motives. How does that
claim square with their bombing tactics?
3.You cite 2000 dead Albanians:
a. What do you expect in a war zone, if not bodies? The Serbs did not have a
monopoly on killing of Albanians. You yourself referred to 150 killed by
NATO; do those figure in the 2000? There are also numerous reports of
Albanian 'collaborators' (that is, anyone not committed to the armed
secessionist movement) being targeted by the KLA.
b. "less than a fifth of the presumed victims of Serb terror." Of what
value is this presumption? We heard figures as high as 100,000 bandied about
during the war.
Don't forget also that the Serb crackdown which supposedly caused the
majority of those Albanian deaths which can be attributed to Serb forces
took place *after* the war started. If an ethnic group in your country were
calling down the bombs of a foreign power, would there be no retaliation
against them, even against innocents? Did the US not intern ethnic Japanese
during WW2? Then, in a territory renowned for violence, and not one-sided
violence, was it not irresponsible for NATO to take one side in the way they
did?
Jack W. Hart
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <o...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Andy Evans wrote:
> > >
> > > The Soviet Union had, in a number of respects, a standard of education
> > > which made many US high-schools look like burger bars.
> >
> > Many US high schools ARE burger bars.
>
> US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> and regimentation the students suffer.
>
> --
Brian Cantin
<snip>
> let's see now. cantin wants to pay taxes for school s and control them.
> does he also want to pay taxes for defense and control our armed forces
> and how they train, purchase wage war, and the like.
Cantin does not want to pay taxes for schools or defense. I am not any
more interested footing the bill to kill foreigners than I am in paying
to indoctrinate children.
Bob Harper
improve education in this country. Jefferson wanted 'a free people, fully
informed', not an indoctrinated multitude. The essentially monopoly
status of government ('public') schools militates against excellence and
promotes indoctrination.
Bob Harper
"Evelyn Vogt Gamble (Divamanque)" wrote:
> Yes, but would it not also bring an end to education,
> period? (Or is that, perhaps, what you want?) "Let people
> pay for whatever education they want" only works if everyone
> possesses the financial means to do so. Most of us do not -
> what would you suggest we pay WITH? Our school systems
> (many of them) may be in a sorry state these days, and the
> quality of education they provide may not always be very
> high, but at least it's SOMETHING. You would prefer,
> perhaps, a nation of illiterates? (But of course, you very
> well might - they're easier to control when they haven't
> been exposed to rational thought.) One of the greatest
> prizes of our democracy is the guarantee of an education -
> we may fall short of the Jeffersonian ideal of "a free
> people, fully informed", but everyone capable of learning at
> least has the chance to do so!
>
> Brian Cantin wrote:
> >
>
> > US high schools are fine examples of socialism in action. Abolish
> > public education and let people pay for whatever education they want.
> > Abolishing public education would not only raise educational
> > standards, it would also bring an end to the political indoctrination
> > and regimentation the students suffer.
> >
PK
This is the very issue, which your absurd comparison amply
demonstrates : the four or six million of Nazi Jewish
victims have been murdered systematically and on purpose.
The very numbers prove it. The Yugoslav policy is to prove
the same regarding the NATO bombings (and your "link"
follows this idea).
There isn't any "similar debate" at all (and your stating
there is, is plain shocking, considered the issues) : it's
not scientists discussing this or that, it's just the
ministry and the president of the same government who didn't
accord their propaganda statements and have stupidly
contradicted one another, demonstrating how much the numbers
they give aren't serious, and serve only propaganda
purposes.
The Yugoslav gvt is the only one who can give us numbers,
very easy to establish in a small country seven months after
the bombings. The fact that it doesn't, can mean only one
thing : they are, happily enough, much lower than the
propaganda "usefulness" would demand. They not only do not
prove NATO was bombing civilian targets on purpose, they
very much disprove it.
> 2. You ignore non-fatal injuries. These are much more common among bombing
> victims than among those harrassed on the ground by Serb or KLA forces.
> Comparison of numbers of *dead* does not give the whole picture. Besides,
> this is not a competition. NATO claimed humanitarian motives. How does that
> claim square with their bombing tactics?
Do I know these arguments, seems they all come from the same
source... I don't ignore anything. There are no numbers
concerning non-fatal injuries either. None. Nada. Your
mixing up Serb and KLA forces is tendentious nonsense :
there was no KLA terror during the bombings, there was only
Serb terror on a vast scale. The "humanitarian motives" are
to be discussed by comparing and considering (a difficult
political choice, I admit) what has happened and what would
have happened without the intervention. The scope of the
Serb crimes in Kosovo during the bombings at least suggests
the answer. As for the last phrase : the fact that the
civilian casualties were, apparently, very low (otherwise,
to repeat it once again, the Yugoslav authorities would have
had all possible reasons to publish them), proves that NATO
"bombing tactics" consisted of avoiding them as much as
possible, not the other way round.
> 3.You cite 2000 dead Albanians:
> a. What do you expect in a war zone, if not bodies? The Serbs did not have a
> monopoly on killing of Albanians. You yourself referred to 150 killed by
> NATO; do those figure in the 2000? There are also numerous reports of
> Albanian 'collaborators' (that is, anyone not committed to the armed
> secessionist movement) being targeted by the KLA.
God, the same stanza again... Couldn't you guys find
something else? We are speaking of mass graves clearly
established by the ICTY as containing bodies of murdered
Albanians. Are you kidding me and your poor readers? The 150
Albanians are part of the only official statement ever made
by the Yugoslav government concerning "thousands" of
civilian victims; they have nothing to do with the ICTY
statement. BTW, no one could ever check the real numbers
here (I mean : the victims of NATO bombing mistakes) : the
Yugoslav source is all we have, concerning the victims AND
the circumstances of these bombings. In a country where no
free information exists as to the conflict, they might be
true, and again they might not. As for the "collaborators",
the "numerous reports" are something I have been asking for
for months on the French fr.soc.politique group (that's
where I know all your arguments from, repeated over and over
again for months), and never got one.
> b. "less than a fifth of the presumed victims of Serb terror." Of what
> value is this presumption? We heard figures as high as 100,000 bandied about
> during the war.
Excellent argument, again, and very well known : you pick up
an absurd number pronounced by an irresponsible politician
in no position to know, to compromise all serious research
of the truth. The neo-nazi revisionists have used this trick
for the last fifty years. The numbers I give are those of
ICTY, officially published last fall.
> Don't forget also that the Serb crackdown which supposedly caused the
> majority of those Albanian deaths which can be attributed to Serb forces
> took place *after* the war started. If an ethnic group in your country were
> calling down the bombs of a foreign power, would there be no retaliation
> against them, even against innocents? Did the US not intern ethnic Japanese
> during WW2? Then, in a territory renowned for violence, and not one-sided
> violence, was it not irresponsible for NATO to take one side in the way they
> did?
Another lie, or rather lies. A recent report of the
Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe states
clearly that the Serb operation of ethnic cleansing had
started long before the bombings, got more intense during
the Rambouillet negotiations, and has been very carefully
planned in advance. As for the violence in this territory,
it began in 1989 when the Serbs have established an
anti-albanian apartheid policy in the province.
PK
P.S. I'm really very sorry to disturb this group with such a
debate, but the alternative would be to let obvious lies and
trivial propaganda go unanswered. I might be wrong in
pursuing this, but it was a decision to make...
samir ghiocel golescu
These issues are very complex and I find bits of truth in both positions
expressed.
Mr. Kaminski, Thomas, you have made your points. May I dare (not that I
would pose in moderator or anything!) politely suggest you to leave it
there?
thanks,
SG
Andy Evans
> etc, etc...
in WW2?
> I'm sorry to say that, but this is all sheer nonsense>.
This is not nonsense, it is a genuine disagreement, and there are plenty of
intellectuals on my side. A war takes place where there are irreconcilable
differences of opinion. Does it surprise anyone that there should continue
to be irreconcilable differences of opinion after the war? I have given you
my take on the war, you have given me yours. I assume we are both
intelligent people. We disagree. Leave it at that.
>I most strongly recommend the BBC documentary called "Yugoslavia : the
suicide of a Nation", where the actors speak, and tell quite a different
story.>
which is where most of them should be dumped. Of course actors tell
stories - what do you expect?
dtritter
>
> jacqueline laroche <jlar...@bway.net> writes:
> <snip>
> > let's see now. cantin wants to pay taxes for school s and control them.> > does he also want to pay taxes for defense and control our armed forces> > and how they train, purchase wage war, and the like.
> <snip>
>
> Cantin does not want to pay taxes for schools or defense. I am not any> more interested footing the bill to kill foreigners than I am in paying> to indoctrinate children.
looks like it's that desert island for you, cantin, unless you are a
masochist who enjoys a society that wants to help. by the way, how are
you on the subject of police and fire and sanitation services? or should
we only protect some citizens, put out selected fires and collect
garbage on an occasional street.????
PK
Of course, I will. This is no place for this debate. But
your reaction, with all possible respect for you personnally
(and I hope you believe me), is exactly what I wanted to
avoid : the "bits of truth in both positions". I'd rather
you said I'm a paid NATO propagandist. There will be no more
contributions on my part on this "complex" issue.
PK
Marc Perman
>
>> >>Here in NYC we have plenty of pop, much less porn under the Giuliani
>> >>administration, and hardly any soccer.
>
>Suggesting the honorable Carlo Maria Giuliani is responsible for the
>soccer crisis in NYC is a bit of an unsustainable allegation!! (-:
Well, as an Italian who has spent many years in the US, what *has*
Giulini done for soccer in this country?
Marc Perman
Marc Perman
>No Name wrote:
>> We classical music lovers can't and shouldn't assume
>>that Mozart is better than the Rolling Stones, but that they are
>different [ ... ]
>
>BALONEY!! That IS the mistake: High culture IS better than the
>pop 'culture'. When you say they are merely 'different', that
>CONSTITUTES the dumbing-down. Some people have more refined taste
>than other people - they should not apologize for that.
>
>I feel that much of this harmful process of continually seeking
>the lowest common denominator results from empty phrases of bad
>18th-century philosophy (like 'all men are created equal'). The
>fact is there are smarter people and less-smart people. There are
>many more stupid people than smart ones, and when everyone's
>opinion counts equally, you obtain the bad results which we
>presently observe.
For further reading on this subject, do a Deja.com search by plugging
in the words "disgust" and "Vroon."
Marc Perman
Thomas Deas
>
> P.S. I'm really very sorry to disturb this group with such a
> debate, but the alternative would be to let obvious lies and
> trivial propaganda go unanswered. I might be wrong in
> pursuing this, but it was a decision to make...
The gist of your post is that
a) so long as the dead are not numbered they don't count.
b) any information coming from the Yugoslav authorities is necessarily
untrue
c) any information coming from ICTY, OSCE etc is necessarily true.
My position is that dropping bombs is counterproductive. Terrorism deserves
its bad name, whether Libyan-, Iraqi-, Afghan-, US- or British-sponsored.
I shall drop it here.
Thomas Deas
"Peter and Kathleen Greenstein" <gre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:389C5F90...@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> Thomas Deas wrote:
>
> > "PDon't forget also that the Serb crackdown which supposedly caused the
> > majority of those Albanian deaths which can be attributed to Serb forces
> > took place *after* the war started. If an ethnic group in your country
were
> > calling down the bombs of a foreign power, would there be no retaliation
> > against them, even against innocents?
>
argument
> among critics of NATO action. But would you make a similar argument re
WWII
> because the rate of killing in Nazi death camps greatly increased as the
Allies
> pressed the war into Germany?
WWII was not fought specifically to protect the lives of those people.
samir ghiocel golescu
I dare guess adding "rancid" and "rotten" would focalize better the
search(:
samir ghiocel golescu
> Of course, I will. This is no place for this debate. But
> your reaction, with all possible respect for you personnally
> (and I hope you believe me), is exactly what I wanted to
> avoid : the "bits of truth in both positions". I'd rather
> you said I'm a paid NATO propagandist. There will be no more
> contributions on my part on this "complex" issue.
Thanks. Just for the record, I didn't make a secret out of the fact that I
am much more inclined toward the NATO position in the whole affair,
90% you could say, just that Thomas' pointing out the inhuman "secondary
effects" (and, of course, human lives are not "secondary") of
certain actions seemed to be justifiable, at least from a human(istic)
(politics are different) point of view.
...oops, now *I*'ve started. Promise to "leave it there" myself now!
best regards,
SG
ffolliott
samir ghiocel golescu wrote in message ...
>
>I dare guess adding "rancid" and "rotten" would focalize better
the
>search(:
>
Certainly would they as well focalize upon your English the usage.
Brian Cantin
> looks like it's that desert island for you, cantin, unless you are a
> masochist who enjoys a society that wants to help. by the way, how are
> you on the subject of police and fire and sanitation services?
I don't consider police and fire services to be any different than
and other service.
> or should we only protect some citizens, put out selected fires and
> collect garbage on an occasional street.????
What has "we" got to do with it?
If you want to provide for the needy, go ahead. I might even chip in.
But don't pretend that resources extorted at the point of gun have
anything to do with helping.
Marc Perman
I was referring to the conductor, not to hizzoner.
Marc Perman
I didn't know "doing something for soccer" was part of the job
>description for Mayor of New York City. Had he known, perhaps he wouldn't
>have run for office.
>Andre Edouard
>"God will forgive me. C'est son métier." -HH-
Jim Curtis
andre35 <and...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:389C7EB4...@bellsouth.net...
> Conspiracy theorists are a dime a dozen. That's about the right
> price.
Sounds like a conspiracy theory if I ever heard one. What color are their
helicopters? Are they out to get you?
Jim Curtis
EM <emREei...@stMEad.dsl.nl> wrote in message
news:oqpl9sgqn7u14f5uo...@4ax.com...
> I guess we can't hope that the sacking and hiring of the old and new
> conductor (respectively) op the Dallas Symphony Orch. would draw the
> same media attention?
Maybe if they hired Jimmy Johnson.
Peter and Kathleen Greenstein
Peter and Kathleen Greenstein
Thomas Deas wrote:
> > This attempt to make "understandable" Serb terror in Kosovo is a common
> argument
> > among critics of NATO action. But would you make a similar argument re
> WWII
> > because the rate of killing in Nazi death camps greatly increased as the
> Allies
> > pressed the war into Germany?
>
> WWII was not fought specifically to protect the lives of those people.
Somehow you totally missed my point.
Peter T. Daniels
But what the hell is this discussion doing on three classical music
groups?
Brian Cantin wrote:
>
> dtritter <dtri...@bway.net> writes:
> > looks like it's that desert island for you, cantin, unless you are a
> > masochist who enjoys a society that wants to help. by the way, how are
> > you on the subject of police and fire and sanitation services?
>
> I don't consider police and fire services to be any different than
> and other service.
>
> > or should we only protect some citizens, put out selected fires and
> > collect garbage on an occasional street.????
>
> What has "we" got to do with it?
>
> If you want to provide for the needy, go ahead. I might even chip in.
> But don't pretend that resources extorted at the point of gun have
> anything to do with helping.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@worldnet.att.net