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Toscanini Bruckner a Fake!

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Soundfield

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Jun 1, 2007, 1:26:31 PM6/1/07
to
It's come to my attention that some small label, somewhere, is issuing
what it claims is Toscanini's 1935 performance of the Bruckner Seventh
with the Philharmonic.

This is a fake. There is only one known source of this performance,
an incomplete aircheck which is in the Toscanini Archives at Lincoln
Center. This performance has never been issued, though a copy was
made for the Museum of TV and Radio in Los Angeles, for audition
purposes only, by museum patrons.

Let me repeat: This recording is a fake. Do not buy it.

Don Drewecki

ansermetniac

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Jun 1, 2007, 1:42:38 PM6/1/07
to
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:26:31 -0700, Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

What about the third movement that Seth played in January. It was
compared and found to be the same as the Aria CD.

Wrong again Dondi

Has it occured to you that it might have been stolen from Lincoln
Center, by a real thief or an inside person

Abbedd

Lionel Tacchini

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Jun 1, 2007, 1:52:49 PM6/1/07
to

People who heard the original recording have confirmed the
authenticity of the CD.

Lionel Tacchini

joey7c...@yahoo.com

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Jun 1, 2007, 2:25:51 PM6/1/07
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Who are those people? (Not doubting you, I would just like to know.)

Juan I. Cahis

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Jun 1, 2007, 3:13:01 PM6/1/07
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And who is the real conductor, according to you?

Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Thanks
Juan I. Cahis
Santiago de Chile (South America)
Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!

Paul Ilechko

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Jun 1, 2007, 3:41:01 PM6/1/07
to
Juan I. Cahis wrote:

> Thanks

> Juan I. Cahis
> Santiago de Chile (South America)
> Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!


I think that the word "Thanks" was actually rendered in perfect English.
The only caveat that I might add would be regarding the use of
punctuation - you might want to terminate it with a period, or even an
exclamation point.

eric....@gmail.com

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Jun 1, 2007, 3:50:35 PM6/1/07
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> Who are those people? (Not doubting you, I would just like to know.)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

At the very least: Seth Winner recently played a substantial excerpt
of the original in a public lecture, and a recording of that lecture
is available on the Net.

Regards,
Eric Grunin
www.grunin.com/eroica

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jun 1, 2007, 3:55:34 PM6/1/07
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Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1180718791.411892.201150
@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

I have heard the MT&R copy several times. I have heard the Japanese CD
(and iPod files derived from it) several times. They are the same.

They also match with the Scherzo excerpt that was played by Seth Winner
himself at his talk a few months ago.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jun 1, 2007, 3:55:34 PM6/1/07
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joey7c...@yahoo.com appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:1180722351....@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

I am one of them.

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jun 1, 2007, 3:55:34 PM6/1/07
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Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:5cbb21F...@mid.individual.net:

You know, Paul, you and I are pretty much alike. We have our moments of
lucidity and helpfulness, and our quarter-hours of snarkiness and disdain.
I'm not saying that so that I can revel in it; I know it's one of my worst
character flaws, and I have to be honest and say that I see it in you too.
Perhaps that's why we rub one another the wrong way so often.

But really, there are people here (and in the external universe) who would
be better targets of that disdain than Juan, as kind and as quiet a soul as
one could ever hope to find here. If you want to vent your bile at
somebody, then go ahead and vent it as me (I know you've had lots of
practice at it), not at him.

I just couldn't let this pass without comment.

ansermetniac

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:09:03 PM6/1/07
to
On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 19:55:34 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
>letters to be typed in news:1180718791.411892.201150
>@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:
>
>> It's come to my attention that some small label, somewhere, is issuing
>> what it claims is Toscanini's 1935 performance of the Bruckner Seventh
>> with the Philharmonic.
>>
>> This is a fake. There is only one known source of this performance,
>> an incomplete aircheck which is in the Toscanini Archives at Lincoln
>> Center. This performance has never been issued, though a copy was
>> made for the Museum of TV and Radio in Los Angeles, for audition
>> purposes only, by museum patrons.
>>
>> Let me repeat: This recording is a fake. Do not buy it.
>
>I have heard the MT&R copy several times. I have heard the Japanese CD
>(and iPod files derived from it) several times. They are the same.
>
>They also match with the Scherzo excerpt that was played by Seth Winner
>himself at his talk a few months ago.


An all the Cantelli NBC broadcasts that Walter buried in Yale, that
have escaped, are fake too. They were recorded in Troy NY, mixed to
mono , had hiss added to them, and there you go.

Anyone want to cover my bet that Drewecki did not listen to the new CD
or its internet counterpart . He wouldn't know the difference if he
had.

Abbedd

Abebdd

sechumlib

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:08:36 PM6/1/07
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On 2007-06-01 15:13:01 -0400, Juan I. Cahis
<jiclbchS...@attglobal.net> said:

You used "Thanks" very effectively. Nothing else matters!

Aaron Z Snyder

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:12:22 PM6/1/07
to
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:Xns994283A8C72...@207.217.125.201:

> I have heard the MT&R copy several times. I have heard the Japanese CD
> (and iPod files derived from it) several times. They are the same.
>
> They also match with the Scherzo excerpt that was played by Seth Winner
> himself at his talk a few months ago.
>

Furthermore, the orchestration modifications are unique to the Toscanini
version. They are AT's own work. None of the alleged tormentors of Bruckner
(a canard that rufuses to die, even with Dick Cheney out there with his
shotgun) were responsible for these modifications.

...and, Mr Soundfield, are you implying that someone dubbed in the humming?

Perhaps someone is protesting too much?

AZS

joey7c...@yahoo.com

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:24:10 PM6/1/07
to
On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Aaron Z Snyder <azsNOS...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote innews:Xns994283A8C72...@207.217.125.201:

>
> > I have heard the MT&R copy several times. I have heard the Japanese CD
> > (and iPod files derived from it) several times. They are the same.
>
> > They also match with the Scherzo excerpt that was played by Seth Winner
> > himself at his talk a few months ago.
>
> Furthermore, the orchestration modifications are unique to the Toscanini
> version. They are AT's own work. None of the alleged tormentors of Bruckner
> (a canard that rufuses to die, even with Dick Cheney out there with his
> shotgun) were responsible for these modifications.
>
> ...and, Mr Soundfield, are you implying that someone dubbed in the humming?


That wasn't AT humming, that was the Cicadae:-)

Frank Berger

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:32:35 PM6/1/07
to

"Paul Ilechko" <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in message
news:5cbb21F...@mid.individual.net...

I'm more concerned with the poster's apparent willingness to accept the
warning about the farkery without asking for any kind of proof.


Frank Berger

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:35:03 PM6/1/07
to

"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> wrote in message
news:13610j3...@news.supernews.com...

Not to mention the fakery.


Alan Cooper

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:52:12 PM6/1/07
to
Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in news:5cbb21F...@mid.individual.net:

Having spent a wonderful evening in Santiago last week with Juan and his wife Francisca, I
can assure everyone here that his English is superb! Juan speaks English and Spanish (as
well as Bruckner and Schubert); Francisca speaks Spanish and French. My wife and I speak
English and French, so it was a trilingual evening, with lots of simultaneous translation
going on around the table, not to mention great food and drink along with the conversation.

Alan

Juan I. Cahis

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Jun 1, 2007, 4:57:33 PM6/1/07
to
Thanks-dot-Matthew!!!!!!!!!

rkhalona

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Jun 1, 2007, 5:07:53 PM6/1/07
to
On Jun 1, 1:12 pm, Aaron Z Snyder <azsNOS...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> ...and, Mr Soundfield, are you implying that someone dubbed in the humming?
>

Pablo Casals was around in 1935, wasn't he?

RK

Paul Ilechko

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Jun 1, 2007, 5:22:59 PM6/1/07
to
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:5cbb21F...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Juan I. Cahis wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Juan I. Cahis
>>> Santiago de Chile (South America)
>>> Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!

>> I think that the word "Thanks" was actually rendered in perfect English.
>> The only caveat that I might add would be regarding the use of
>> punctuation - you might want to terminate it with a period, or even an
>> exclamation point.
>
> You know, Paul, you and I are pretty much alike. We have our moments of
> lucidity and helpfulness, and our quarter-hours of snarkiness and disdain.
> I'm not saying that so that I can revel in it; I know it's one of my worst
> character flaws, and I have to be honest and say that I see it in you too.
> Perhaps that's why we rub one another the wrong way so often.

> But really, there are people here (and in the external universe) who would
> be better targets of that disdain than Juan, as kind and as quiet a soul as
> one could ever hope to find here. If you want to vent your bile at
> somebody, then go ahead and vent it as me (I know you've had lots of
> practice at it), not at him.

There was nothing bilious or disdainful intended. It was really just
amusement - that he still has that same sig( when we all know that he
writes excellent English) and that he still kept it for a one word
response. Perhaps it was a little snarky, but in the gentlest way possible.

Paul Ilechko

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Jun 1, 2007, 5:24:21 PM6/1/07
to
Alan Cooper wrote:
> Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> wrote in news:5cbb21F...@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Juan I. Cahis wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Juan I. Cahis
>>> Santiago de Chile (South America)
>>> Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!
>>
>> I think that the word "Thanks" was actually rendered in perfect English.
>> The only caveat that I might add would be regarding the use of
>> punctuation - you might want to terminate it with a period, or even an
>> exclamation point.
>
> Having spent a wonderful evening in Santiago last week with Juan and his wife Francisca, I
> can assure everyone here that his English is superb!


I can tell that he does, and as I pointed out to Matthew, there was no
offense intended.

Juan I. Cahis

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Jun 1, 2007, 6:36:34 PM6/1/07
to
Dear friends, I emailed this thread to Mr. John Berky, and this is the
answer I received form him:

>Juan,
>
>Please do me a favor since I no longer subscribe to rec.music.classical.etc.
>
>Please inform Mr. Drewski, et.al. that I have auditioned the Toscanini B7 at the Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives on two occasions. I have also listened to the CD that came out in Japan and I can assure everyone that it is, without doubt, the exact same recording. I have, therefore listed it in my online discography. He obviously has not made a comparison.
>
>Best wishes!
>
>John

Kevin P. Mostyn

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Jun 1, 2007, 6:43:42 PM6/1/07
to
I can add to this exchange that Juan has been a guest at my house in
California and that he and I had a wonderful lunch in D.C. with Joel Lazar a
couple of years ago and I can attest that Juan has an excellent grasp of
English. Minor matters of punctuation are beneath discussion in polite
discourse.

Juan is an excellent fellow, with a love of music and an enormous and
wide-ranging interest in many composers. His postings to this group (and to
a private Bruckner group) are always interesting and informative.

Alan, did Juan serve you the Chilean national cocktail? He attempted to
create it at my house using the contents of my liquor cabinet. I still
recall the hangover.

--
Kevin Mostyn

------------------------------------------------------------
My real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com.

Alan Cooper" <amco...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9942AB9C2CFDEam...@69.28.186.158...

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jun 1, 2007, 6:46:56 PM6/1/07
to
Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:5cbh17F...@mid.individual.net:

> There was nothing bilious or disdainful intended. It was really just
> amusement - that he still has that same sig( when we all know that he
> writes excellent English) and that he still kept it for a one word
> response. Perhaps it was a little snarky, but in the gentlest way
> possible.

Well, okay, I hope Juan will take it gently, then.

The nature of a sig file is that it isn't something you need to type in
every time, as you obviously know -- it's something that's always there.
Whenever I post here, my sig file appears without my ever having to think
about it (and we all know that I don't do much thinking when I post).

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jun 1, 2007, 6:46:56 PM6/1/07
to
"Frank Berger" <frank.d...@dal.frb.org> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:13610nn...@news.supernews.com:

I like "farkery" better.

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jun 1, 2007, 6:46:56 PM6/1/07
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Paul Ilechko <pile...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:5cbh3pF...@mid.individual.net:

I accept the correction and only hope that I haven't offended any party.

mwk...@ameritech.net

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Jun 1, 2007, 9:33:42 PM6/1/07
to
On Jun 1, 4:22 pm, Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> wrote:
> Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> > Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> appears to have caused the following
> > letters to be typed innews:5cbb21F...@mid.individual.net:
> response. Perhaps it was a little snarky, but in the gentlest way possible.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Juan's wasn't actually a one-word response. The crux of it happened
to be top-posted:

"And who is the real conductor, according to you?"

Juan's question remains unanswered. In the case of the Szell NYP
Bruckner 8 fake that ansermetniac posted about recently, the qThe real
amusement in this thread is the pretext that the genie is *not* out of
the bottle. Let us examine the OP's argument:

"This is a fake. There is only one known source of this performance,
an incomplete aircheck which is in the Toscanini Archives at Lincoln
Center. This performance has never been issued, though a copy was
made for the Museum of TV and Radio in Los Angeles, for audition
purposes only, by museum patrons."

So, the implication is that since there is only one source, it cannot
possibly have leaked out. The way to verify that the performance is
or is not Toscanini is to simply make a comparison with the "only one
known source." Mr. Tepper has done so. The ball is in Mr. Drewecki's
court.


Paul Ilechko

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Jun 1, 2007, 9:36:06 PM6/1/07
to
mwk...@ameritech.net wrote:

>
> Juan's wasn't actually a one-word response. The crux of it happened
> to be top-posted:
>
> "And who is the real conductor, according to you?"

Yes, I missed that at the time, I noticed it later on.

mwk...@ameritech.net

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Jun 1, 2007, 9:38:36 PM6/1/07
to
On Jun 1, 8:33 pm, "mwkl...@ameritech.net" <mwkl...@ameritech.net>
wrote:

Sorry, this reply was sent in an incomplete state. Let's try again.

Juan's wasn't actually a one-word response. The crux of it happened
to be top-posted:

"And who is the real conductor, according to you?"

Juan's question remains unanswered. In the case of the Szell NYP

Bruckner 8 fake that ansermetniac posted about recently, that question
was answered (at least in part). The real conductor was revealed.


The real amusement in this thread is the pretext that the genie is
*not* out of the bottle. Let us examine the OP's argument:

"This is a fake. There is only one known source of this performance,
an incomplete aircheck which is in the Toscanini Archives at Lincoln
Center. This performance has never been issued, though a copy was
made for the Museum of TV and Radio in Los Angeles, for audition
purposes only, by museum patrons."

So, the implication is that since there is only one source, it cannot
possibly have leaked out. The way to verify that the performance is
or is not Toscanini is to simply make a comparison with the "only one

known source." Mr. Tepper has done so. The ball is now in Mr.
Drewecki's
court.

Lyle Francis Delp

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Jun 1, 2007, 9:41:34 PM6/1/07
to

It wasn't a one word response. Check again. His
response was top posted.

--
Lyle Delp
Yeah, Lyle Francis Delp! Ya wanna make somethin' outtavit?

Curtis Croulet

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Jun 1, 2007, 10:37:34 PM6/1/07
to
> Pablo Casals was around in 1935, wasn't he?

Yeah, but he probably wasn't playing Bruckner!
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33°27'59"N, 117°05'53"W


rkhalona

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Jun 1, 2007, 11:39:45 PM6/1/07
to
On Jun 1, 7:37 pm, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte@_NO_SPAM_verizon.net>
wrote:

> > Pablo Casals was around in 1935, wasn't he?
>
> Yeah, but he probably wasn't playing Bruckner!

I meant they could have outsourced the humming part to him.

RK

rkhalona

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Jun 2, 2007, 12:00:05 AM6/2/07
to
On Jun 1, 6:33 pm, "mwkl...@ameritech.net" <mwkl...@ameritech.net>
wrote:

This is the weakest part of the original poster's argument.

> The way to verify that the performance is
> or is not Toscanini is to simply make a comparison with the "only one
> known source." Mr. Tepper has done so. The ball is in Mr. Drewecki's
> court
>

Actually, Drewecki does not have to say who the conductor is (assuming
it isn't Toscanini); all he has to do is
say how it differs from the source in NY and in LA. Tepper and Seth
Winner (at least in the Scherzo) have already proved him wrong. The
ball is still on Drewecki's court.

RK


Alan Cooper

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Jun 2, 2007, 8:16:30 AM6/2/07
to
"Kevin P. Mostyn" <notmyrea...@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:xi18i.227945$s22.1...@fe02.news.easynews.com:

> Juan is an excellent fellow, with a love of music and an enormous and
> wide-ranging interest in many composers. His postings to this group
> (and to a private Bruckner group) are always interesting and
> informative.
>
> Alan, did Juan serve you the Chilean national cocktail? He attempted
> to create it at my house using the contents of my liquor cabinet. I
> still recall the hangover.

You refer of course to the infamous Pisco Sour, without which no Chilean meal would be
complete. (Well, they don't drink them at breakfast, as far as I could tell.) Deadly
stuff, and it's highly unlikely that you would have stocked the pisco brandy that is the
essential ingredient. Our son had forewarned us, and I don't drink much anyway, so Juan
suggested that we substitute another Chilean specialty, cherimoya juice, which was
delicious. I did eventually have a Pisco Sour on an occasion when it would have been rude
to refuse. When I politely complimented our host, who had gone to the trouble of preparing
it specially for us, he enthusiastically poured me a second. So much for good manners :-)

Alan

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jun 2, 2007, 11:05:30 AM6/2/07
to
rkhalona <rkha...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following

letters to be typed in
news:1180756805.8...@q19g2000prn.googlegroups.com:

> On Jun 1, 6:33 pm, "mwkl...@ameritech.net" <mwkl...@ameritech.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 1, 4:22 pm, Paul Ilechko <pilec...@patmedia.net> wrote:
>>
>> Juan's question remains unanswered. In the case of the Szell NYP Bruckner
>> 8 fake that ansermetniac posted about recently, the qThe real amusement in
>> this thread is the pretext that the genie is *not* out of the bottle. Let
>> us examine the OP's argument:
>>
>> "This is a fake. There is only one known source of this performance, an
>> incomplete aircheck which is in the Toscanini Archives at Lincoln Center.
>> This performance has never been issued, though a copy was made for the
>> Museum of TV and Radio in Los Angeles, for audition purposes only, by
>> museum patrons."
>>
>> So, the implication is that since there is only one source, it cannot
>> possibly have leaked out.
>
> This is the weakest part of the original poster's argument.

Let's face it -- an "unsinkable" ship was sunk, an "unimpregnable" casino was
robbed, and a "unique copy" of an aircheck got copied, by persons unknown.
As Mr. Spock might say, "It must be possible, Captain; it happened."

>> The way to verify that the performance is or is not Toscanini is to simply
>> make a comparison with the "only one known source." Mr. Tepper has done
>> so. The ball is in Mr. Drewecki's court
>
> Actually, Drewecki does not have to say who the conductor is (assuming it
> isn't Toscanini); all he has to do is say how it differs from the source in
> NY and in LA. Tepper and Seth Winner (at least in the Scherzo) have
> already proved him wrong. The ball is still on Drewecki's court.

Ramon, when you're next in L.A. on a day when I'm not working, and when the
MT&R in Beverly Hills is open (see their website for hours), then you and I
could both go there and do an A-B comparison.

Soundfield

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Jun 2, 2007, 3:25:55 PM6/2/07
to
Yes, the Scherzo was played at Seth Winner's talk. But the rest of
the performance -- if it is legitimate -- was taken illegally from the
sole known copy of this recording, made off the air in 1935, and
acquired by Walter Toscanini. THAT IS THE ONLY KNOWN SOURCE OF THIS
PERFORMANCE. THERE IS NO OTHER.

If the performance IS legit, then NYPL tape was stolen or copied
illegally. Anyone who has listened to Toscanini Legacy Collection
tapes at the R&H Archives knows that security is very tight (and
always was so, long before 9-11). Thus, I submit that this is a fake,
unless the source was illegally obtained at the NYPL.

I stand by what I wrote, ansermaniac. I have at least visited the R&H
Archives on dozens of occasions over the last 15 years.

dd


On Jun 1, 4:09 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]

Soundfield

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 3:39:01 PM6/2/07
to
The only way that anyone could compare that AT B7th directly would be
to bring that Japanese CD into the R&H Archives and play it while at
the same time listening to the tape in the Toscanini Legacy Collection
simultaneously. That's not possible because security for this
division of the NYPL is and always was heavy, long before 9-11. You
muss pass several security guards, and a person's belongings are
checked at both the external and internal security gates and placed at
a baggage check.

Unless the NYPL's security procedures were somehow violated, I stand
by what I wrote, that this Aria CD is a fake. It has never been known
that Walter Toscanini ever copied this specific recording down for
anyone while he was alive, and the archive of his father's
performances was unavailable to the public from 1968 (when he had his
stroke) to 1988.

The Scherzo of the performance is the only thing that has released by
the NYPL.

dd

On Jun 1, 4:09 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>

> >I have heard the MT&R copy several times. I have heard the Japanese CD
> >(and iPod files derived from it) several times. They are the same.
>
> >They also match with the Scherzo excerpt that was played by Seth Winner
> >himself at his talk a few months ago.
>
>

> Abebdd


ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 3:41:54 PM6/2/07
to
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:25:55 -0700, Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Yes, the Scherzo was played at Seth Winner's talk. But the rest of
>the performance -- if it is legitimate -- was taken illegally from the
>sole known copy of this recording, made off the air in 1935, and
>acquired by Walter Toscanini. THAT IS THE ONLY KNOWN SOURCE OF THIS
>PERFORMANCE. THERE IS NO OTHER.
>
>If the performance IS legit, then NYPL tape was stolen or copied
>illegally. Anyone who has listened to Toscanini Legacy Collection
>tapes at the R&H Archives knows that security is very tight (and
>always was so, long before 9-11). Thus, I submit that this is a fake,
>unless the source was illegally obtained at the NYPL.
>
>I stand by what I wrote, ansermaniac. I have at least visited the R&H
>Archives on dozens of occasions over the last 15 years.

________

>If the performance IS legit, then NYPL tape was stolen or copied
>illegally

Better get Kojak to investigate LOL

So all those who have compared them are wrong. Why did you not listen
yourself before making such a bold statement?

If you would like a copy, email me. THEN you can make your bold
statement. If you still think it is a fake then you can be accused of
something else besides talking out your ass.

BTW , how did all the other broadcasts that were recorded by this same
man in 1935-36 get circulated. Maybe someone was sitting on a copy
before Walter T got it and buried it, and decided now was the time to
share it.

BTW2 Does the NYPL have the Ansermet NBC broadcasts that have not been
circulating, such as the La Valse the SOWI and the 6 Epigraphes
Antiques


BTW3 How is your buddy Arthur F?

Abbedd

Bob Harper

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 3:50:03 PM6/2/07
to
Soundfield wrote:
(snip)

> Unless the NYPL's security procedures were somehow violated, I stand
> by what I wrote, that this Aria CD is a fake.

(snip)

Which is to say that you don't know. In the opinion of several persons
here who are familiar with both the NYPL/MT&R performance and the one
issued in Japan, they are the same. As you say, the only way to *prove*
it would be via direct comparison. Perhaps the NYPL or MT&R should
permit that, unless they are more worried about losing 'exclusivity'
than about truth.

Bob Harper

Message has been deleted

Soundfield

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 3:51:05 PM6/2/07
to
Hey "Ansermanac", I told Art personally, on March 24th, that there is
a psycho named Jeff Powell out there in internet-land who absolutely
detests him and thinks he was personally responsible for every bad
Toscanini CD that came along. He just laughed and said that Powell
"can just turn down the treble control if he dislikes my work." So he
is at least aware of your obsession with him.

dd

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 4:01:44 PM6/2/07
to
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 12:51:05 -0700, Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Hey "Ansermanac", I told Art personally, on March 24th, that there is
>a psycho named Jeff Powell out there in internet-land who absolutely
>detests him and thinks he was personally responsible for every bad
>Toscanini CD that came along. He just laughed and said that Powell
>"can just turn down the treble control if he dislikes my work." So he
>is at least aware of your obsession with him.

Don't forget the shitty CDS of Lenny he did too. If you google his
name , in this group, someone quotes Jack Pffeifer that he did not
think much of Fiero's work and that the entire Toscanini Collection
sounded like shit

Here it is:

Id have to disagree re. Messrs. Fierro and Winner --- they did
nothing to correct the treble-heavy, shrill sound "approved" by the
hearing-impaired Maestro. This is not to cast overall aspersions on
their skills as technicians and engineers --- they're among the best
in the business (listen to some of the Sony Masterworks Heritage
releases and judge for yourself), and got the job done under
tremendous time pressure, often with compromised or
non-first-generation source --- but the insistence that the original
sources be remastered so "they could be heard the way Maestro heard
them" was a blunder, one which resulted in releases which many ---
including The Doc --- find unpleasant to listen to. And you're wrong
about Jack "not car[ing] less' --- he was in the difficult and
delicate position of dealing with the Toscanini Estate, RCA's legal
and marketing people, and preliminary work on what would become The
Heifetz Collection, among about three dozen other projects including
new recordings. He was not keen on Fierro's work but did not want to
delay or interfere with what Bertelsmann deemed their classical
division's most important reissue project of all time. Jack did
express his overall displeasure with the technical quality of The
Toscanini Collection to a few of the reissue engineers shortly after
the entire set was released --- he is quoted as saying "It all sounds
like s#!t." (Two earwitnesses to this incident have personally
confirmed the story to The Doc).

If there is ever an opportunity for BMG to re-redo any of the
Toscanini masters, they should be done by a neutral, disinterested
party above the influence of Toscanini's remaining family, agents
colleagues. A different remastering approach --- one which would
correct the overly brilliant sound and dynamic compression and
limitation problems --- would no doubt make this important legacy
accessible to an entire group of listeners, not to mention re-igniting
interest in Toscanini once again.

As for the Cantelli/NBC recordings, the masters are probably in the
custody of BMG.

The Doc

Check out The Doc's web site at
http://www.pipeline.com/~drgonzo

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 5:03:23 PM6/2/07
to
Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in
news:1180813141.5...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> The only way that anyone could compare that AT B7th directly would be to
> bring that Japanese CD into the R&H Archives and play it while at the same
> time listening to the tape in the Toscanini Legacy Collection
> simultaneously. That's not possible because security for this division of
> the NYPL is and always was heavy, long before 9-11. You muss pass several
> security guards, and a person's belongings are checked at both the external
> and internal security gates and placed at a baggage check.

Evidently you have never seen a "caper" movie, or a single episode of
"Mission Impossible," in your entire life.

First of all, a 5G iPod with Video would have to be sneaked in. I have read
that iPods are extremely popular in New York City, and they are recognizable
to anybody sentient as listening devices rather than recording ones. If it
were absolutely necessary to hide an iPod, it could be brought in via a
woman's purse, hollowed-out paperback, etc.

The next necessary component would be either a Belkin TuneTalk or a Griffin
Technology iTalk:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/38deuu
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2jojcm

These are transducers which allow one to make a recording onto a 5G iPod, as
a "voice memo," which however would have wider frequency response than this
1935 off-air recording. I own the Belkin and I've played with it; it could
easily hide inside a pack of cigarettes, a Chiclets box or what have you.
The Griffin item is about the same size, to judge from its packaging.

Then you'd need some way to get the signal into the transducer. The Belkin
TuneTalk has a minijack for an external microphone. Somebody with far
steadier hands than mine could probably poke pins through the headphone cord
and use alligator clips and a mini-RCA plug. Or perhaps a magnetic pickup,
disguised as a hearing aid, a decorative earring, or body jewelry worn in a
piercing folded up into one of the headphone cups. This wouldn't even have
to be connected to the transducer by wire; ever hear of Bluetooth? And even
if there *is* a wire, it could be hidden in a shirt/blouse; an elastic band
could pull it back out of sight when not in use.

Far from "not possible," the matter actually becomes quite trivial. If I am
surprised by anything, it is that it took this long. My working theory is
that somebody attended Winner's talk, or heard about it afterwards, and was
so intrigued by the Scherzo excerpt that he (or she!) set about obtaining the
equipment above and putting that plan, or a similar one, into action.

Me? Don't be silly; I haven't been to New York since 1983.

There are, of course, other methods, chiefly involving the persuasion of a
member of the NYPL staff via seduction, blackmail, bribery, or threat. Maybe
somebody knew he was about to be fired anyway and figured this was a good way
to make some quick cash. Or a cat burglar broke in one night and made the
copy then. The possibilities are endless. Are we talking about Fort Knox or
a library, fer cryin' out loud?

One thing I *can* tell you is that the Japanese CD has to have been derived
from the New York original, because there are drop-outs in the Beverly Hills
copy as I noted in this newsgroup, almost ten years ago, when I had heard it
for the very first time:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/2u3olz

Note that the possibility that the Beverly Hills copy has been filtered is
the object of a discussion between me and, of all people, you. My theory is
that the copy was made onto analog tape, which would explain the generational
degradation evident here. The Japanese CD is clearly the exact same
performance, but must be closer to the source.

And so what have we learned from all of this? No sound recording, no live
performance, nothing at all, is safe from copying. NOTHING. Deal with it.

I'm sure there are NYPL officials who must feel like the Robert Shaw
character in "The Sting," red with rage that they have been taken like this.
Far better, I'm sure they would claim, that such a treasure be locked up in a
totally safe place where nothing could possibly happen to it. Yeah, right:

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/linkscopy/JacquesLowe.html

I suggest that the NYPL officials, if they do indeed feel that way, are like
the Orléanist kings: they never forget anything, but also they never learn
anything.

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 5:10:18 PM6/2/07
to


Maybe we are all stuck in a Charles Beaumont short story.

Abbedd

Juan I. Cahis

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 6:53:03 PM6/2/07
to
Dear friends, I think that what follows is interesting to this thread.
I posted it earlier, and it was almost unreadable, I am posting it now
again, trying to do it better.


Dear friends, I emailed this thread to Mr.
John Berky, and this is the answer I received

from him:

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 6:57:55 PM6/2/07
to
Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchS...@attglobal.net> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in
news:2ss3639lf83806r0v...@4ax.com:

Perfectly formatted and understandable. Thanks, Juan.

rkhalona

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 7:36:29 PM6/2/07
to
On Jun 2, 12:39 pm, Soundfield <dondrewe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The only way that anyone could compare that AT B7th directly would be
> to bring that Japanese CD into the R&H Archives and play it while at
> the same time listening to the tape in the Toscanini Legacy Collection
> simultaneously. That's not possible because security for this
> division of the NYPL is and always was heavy, long before 9-11. You
> muss pass several security guards, and a person's belongings are
> checked at both the external and internal security gates and placed at
> a baggage check.
>
> Unless the NYPL's security procedures were somehow violated, I stand
> by what I wrote, that this Aria CD is a fake. It has never been known
> that Walter Toscanini ever copied this specific recording down for
> anyone while he was alive, and the archive of his father's
> performances was unavailable to the public from 1968 (when he had his
> stroke) to 1988.
>
> The Scherzo of the performance is the only thing that has released by
> the NYPL.
>
> dd
>

You seem quite upset that this recording finally got out. Perhaps you
can tell us what the next holy grail recording is.

RK

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 8:11:07 PM6/2/07
to
rkhalona <rkha...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:1180827389.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

> You seem quite upset that this recording finally got out. Perhaps you
> can tell us what the next holy grail recording is.

Well, the Grail of Grails may be the 1937 Furtwängler Covent Garden "Ring."

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 9:02:06 PM6/2/07
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 00:11:07 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<oyş@earthlink.net> wrote:

>rkhalona <rkha...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
>to be typed in news:1180827389.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
>> You seem quite upset that this recording finally got out. Perhaps you
>> can tell us what the next holy grail recording is.
>
>Well, the Grail of Grails may be the 1937 Furtwängler Covent Garden "Ring."

I would like to hear the 1944 Toscanini all LVB pension concert with
the Philly Orchestra. He played the septet. Can you imagine MacClane,
Schoenbach and Chambers playing the wind parts.


Abbedd

aleksios

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 11:14:26 PM6/2/07
to
On 2007-06-02 17:03:23 -0400, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net>
said:

> I suggest that the NYPL officials, if they do indeed feel that way,
> are like the Orléanist kings: they never forget anything, but also
> they never learn anything.

OT: Minor correction.

You're thinking of the (senior) Bourbons, not the Orleans, who only
produced one king, Louis-Philippe.

The phrase was attributed to Talleyrand, who was supposed to have
qualified the (returning) emigrants, and, by extension, Louis XVIII,
as, "des gens qui n'ont rien appris ni rien oublie depuis trente ans".

However, the original was in an earlier letter of the Chevalier de
Panat who, describing the group of emigres who had coalesced in London
around the Comte d'Artois, wrote: "personne n'a su ni rien oublier, ni
rien apprendre".


--Alex (the precise philistine)


Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 2, 2007, 11:26:41 PM6/2/07
to
aleksios <alex...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
be typed in news:1180840466.6...@p47g2000hsd.googlegroups.com:

Thanks! Looks like I didn't learn it and didn't remember it! ;--)

Aaron Z Snyder

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:12:41 AM6/3/07
to
Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:1180813141.565091.147410
@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> The only way that anyone could compare that AT B7th directly would be
> to bring that Japanese CD into the R&H Archives and play it while at
> the same time listening to the tape in the Toscanini Legacy Collection
> simultaneously.

Time for my belated two cents.

Oh, come on! Anybody who knows the 7th Symphony and who has any musical
memory at all could identify this recording without doing a side-by-side
comparison. You're obviously in a state of denial, as well as possibly
being musically ignorant. It's obvious that the R&H crowd are really pissed
off that their little secret treasure has been made public.

Then again, a certain administration in Washington still makes claims about
the efficacy of their war decisions. I guess I shouldn't be surprised at
your reaction.

AZS

O

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:26:47 AM6/3/07
to
In article <Xns99438EFD7B6...@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B.
Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:

> Far from "not possible," the matter actually becomes quite trivial. If I am
> surprised by anything, it is that it took this long. My working theory is
> that somebody attended Winner's talk, or heard about it afterwards, and was
> so intrigued by the Scherzo excerpt that he (or she!) set about obtaining the
> equipment above and putting that plan, or a similar one, into action.
>
> Me? Don't be silly; I haven't been to New York since 1983.

C'mon Tepper! The FBI has helicopter videotapes of you driving a White
Bronco with $10,000 in cash, a revolver, and reel-to-reel tapes
streaming out the back window going through the Lincoln Tunnel trying
to make the Mexican border.

Give yourself up now and maybe we can arrange for you to share a cell
with Paris Hilton.

-Owen

FREE PARIS HILTON -- with every purchase.

O

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:32:20 AM6/3/07
to
In article <2ss3639lf83806r0v...@4ax.com>, Juan I. Cahis
<jiclbchS...@attglobal.net> wrote:


> Thanks
> Juan I. Cahis
> Santiago de Chile (South America)
> Note: Please forgive me for my bad English, I am trying to improve it!

Hey Juan:

If you're trying to convince us of your bad English, you're doing a
poor job. You'd never make it over here as a New York City cab driver,
or convenience store operator, or technical phone advisor for Dell
Computer. Your English is far too good. I'll bet your handwriting is
as good as a physician who writes prescriptions, too.

-Owen

Kevin P. Mostyn

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:34:35 AM6/3/07
to
There is another way to compare. The Bruckner scholar Dr. Dermot Gault has
made a very detailed analysis of the alleged Toscanini B7. There are several
unique changes made to the score by Toscanini. A musically sophisticated
listener could audition the R&H recording and compare it to Dermot's notes.
I cannot post his analysis without his permission, as it is in a posting to
a private Bruckner group.

BTW, Dermot's analysis shows, once again, that Toscanini was not a slave to
the written note, despite the legend to the contrary.
--
Kevin Mostyn

------------------------------------------------------------
My real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com.

"Soundfield" <dondr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1180813141.5...@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

John Wilson

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 8:34:53 AM6/3/07
to
On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:36:29 -0700, rkhalona <rkha...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

The Klemperer Sibelius 4.

John

M.W. Kluge

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 9:03:49 AM6/3/07
to
On Jun 2, 2:39 pm, Soundfield <dondrewe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The only way that anyone could compare that AT B7th directly would be
> to bring that Japanese CD into the R&H Archives and play it while at
> the same time listening to the tape in the Toscanini Legacy Collection
> simultaneously. That's not possible because security for this
> division of the NYPL is and always was heavy, long before 9-11. You
> muss pass several security guards, and a person's belongings are
> checked at both the external and internal security gates and placed at
> a baggage check.
>
> Unless the NYPL's security procedures were somehow violated, I stand
> by what I wrote, that this Aria CD is a fake. It has never been known
> that Walter Toscanini ever copied this specific recording down for
> anyone while he was alive, and the archive of his father's
> performances was unavailable to the public from 1968 (when he had his
> stroke) to 1988.
>
> The Scherzo of the performance is the only thing that has released by
> the NYPL.
>
> dd
>
>

Sometimes it is helpful to state the obvious.

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:09:00 AM6/3/07
to
O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:030620070026475767%ow...@denofinequityx.com:

> In article <Xns99438EFD7B6...@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B.
> Tepper <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Far from "not possible," the matter actually becomes quite trivial. If
>> I am surprised by anything, it is that it took this long. My working
>> theory is that somebody attended Winner's talk, or heard about it
>> afterwards, and was so intrigued by the Scherzo excerpt that he (or
>> she!) set about obtaining the equipment above and putting that plan, or
>> a similar one, into action.
>>
>> Me? Don't be silly; I haven't been to New York since 1983.
>
> C'mon Tepper! The FBI has helicopter videotapes of you driving a White
> Bronco with $10,000 in cash, a revolver, and reel-to-reel tapes streaming
> out the back window going through the Lincoln Tunnel trying to make the
> Mexican border.

No no, it wasn't me, it was the CANADIAN border, and there were diapers being
worn -- which brings us back to the principal suspect, a certain failed L.A.
radio personality!

> Give yourself up now and maybe we can arrange for you to share a cell
> with Paris Hilton.

Aiee! Isn't that a torture and against the "quaint" Geneva Conventions?

> FREE PARIS HILTON -- with every purchase.
>

--

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:09:00 AM6/3/07
to
"M.W. Kluge" <MWK...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:1180875829.8...@h2g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> Sometimes it is helpful to state the obvious.

And sometimes the choice of words makes all the difference.

Lionel Tacchini

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:12:46 AM6/3/07
to
On 3 Jun., 00:53, Juan I. Cahis <jiclbchSINBAS...@attglobal.net>
wrote:

> Dear friends, I emailed this thread to Mr.
> John Berky, and this is the answer I received
> from him:
>
> Juan,
>
> Please do me a favor since I no longer
> subscribe to rec.music.classical.etc.
>
> Please inform Mr. Drewski, et.al. that I have
> auditioned the Toscanini B7 at the Rodgers and
> Hammerstein Archives on two occasions. I have
> also listened to the CD that came out in Japan
> and I can assure everyone that it is, without
> doubt, the exact same recording. I have,
> therefore listed it in my online discography.
> He obviously has not made a comparison.
>
> Best wishes!
>
> John

John Berky's ability to recognise the performance can be trusted,
especially in the view of its numerous specificities, obvious in the
orchestration changes of the Finale but also in the tempo
relationships in the remaining movements and matters of phrasing.

Lionel Tacchini

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:15:37 PM6/3/07
to
Lionel Tacchini <lionel....@arcor.de> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in
news:1180883566.2...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

So that makes Berky, Snyder, me, and how many others who have actually heard
the Japanese CD as well as either the NYPL/MT&R achived recording, and have
said that they are indeed the same performance?

Don, have you *heard* the Japanese CD? A "yes" or "no" reply will suffice.

Sacquboutier

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:29:02 PM6/3/07
to

ANYONE's Sibelius 8th.

--
--
Kindest regards,
Don

Paul Goldstein

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:35:35 PM6/3/07
to
In article <Xns99445E2F962...@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B. Tepper
says...

>
>Don, have you *heard* the Japanese CD? A "yes" or "no" reply will suffice.

Of course he hasn't. He was reasoning abstractly from premises that he assumed
were unassailable (R&H "security" is impregnable, for example).

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 12:48:18 PM6/3/07
to
On 3 Jun 2007 09:35:35 -0700, Paul Goldstein <pgol...@newsguy.com>
wrote:

But in reality more things have been stolen from the NYPL then are in
the NYPL

Abbedd

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:00:17 PM6/3/07
to
Paul Goldstein <pgol...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:f3uqk...@drn.newsguy.com:

Let's step back, look at this dispassionately, and wait for Don to answer the
question at hand.

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 1:50:03 PM6/3/07
to
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:00:17 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:

>Paul Goldstein <pgol...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the following
>letters to be typed in news:f3uqk...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
>> In article <Xns99445E2F962...@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B.
>> Tepper says...
>>
>>> Don, have you *heard* the Japanese CD? A "yes" or "no" reply will
>>> suffice.
>>
>> Of course he hasn't. He was reasoning abstractly from premises that he
>> assumed were unassailable (R&H "security" is impregnable, for example).
>
>Let's step back, look at this dispassionately, and wait for Don to answer the
>question at hand.


He already did. Doing his Deacon impersonation. He will have no
further statement

Abbedd

Message has been deleted

Juan I. Cahis

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 6:56:05 PM6/3/07
to
GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sacquboutier <Nos...@somewhere.net> wrote:

TareeDawg

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 7:34:41 PM6/3/07
to

There are heaps of Tapiolas around, Don.
It is his 9th we are looking for.
<g>

Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree

Allen

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 9:58:24 PM6/3/07
to

I've heard that Hatto recorded a piano reduction of it.
Allen

rkhalona

unread,
Jun 3, 2007, 11:30:35 PM6/3/07
to
On Jun 3, 6:58 pm, Allen <a...@nothere.net> wrote:
> Juan I. Cahis wrote:
> > GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > Sacquboutier <Nos...@somewhere.net> wrote:
>
> >> On 2007-06-03 08:34:53 -0400, John Wilson <j...@earthlink.net> said:
>
> >>> On Sat, 02 Jun 2007 16:36:29 -0700, rkhalona <rkhal...@hotmail.com>


It's the piano four-hands version, but as usual with her label, the
second pianist is not identified.
Betting people say it's Sergio Fiorentino.

RK

Message has been deleted

O

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 10:20:38 AM6/4/07
to
In article <1180927835.2...@a26g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
rkhalona <rkha...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > >> --
> >
> > I've heard that Hatto recorded a piano reduction of it.
> > Allen
>
>
> It's the piano four-hands version, but as usual with her label, the
> second pianist is not identified.
> Betting people say it's Sergio Fiorentino.

Poor Sergio! Forever entangled now in the Hatto mess, all because he
had the misfortune to have a recording on the same CD as Ms. Hatto!

Now, Rene Kohler is another matter. But Fiorentino was a fine pianist.

-Owen

rkhalona

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 10:26:44 AM6/4/07
to
On Jun 3, 10:50 am, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:00:17 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
>
> <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the following

> >letters to be typed innews:f3uqk...@drn.newsguy.com:
>
> >> In article <Xns99445E2F96211quackandf...@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B.

> >> Tepper says...
>
> >>> Don, have you *heard* the Japanese CD? A "yes" or "no" reply will
> >>> suffice.
>
> >> Of course he hasn't. He was reasoning abstractly from premises that he
> >> assumed were unassailable (R&H "security" is impregnable, for example).
>
> >Let's step back, look at this dispassionately, and wait for Don to answer the
> >question at hand.
>
> He already did. Doing his Deacon impersonation. He will have no
> further statement
>

Wait, he didn't say "HA HA HA HA!" Did he?

RK

rkhalona

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 10:28:34 AM6/4/07
to
On Jun 4, 4:06 am, EM <emmemmmemnmme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> rkhalona <rkhal...@hotmail.com> - Sun, 03 Jun 2007 20:30:35 -0700:

>
> > It's the piano four-hands version, but as usual with her label, the
> > second pianist is not identified.
>
> Isn't it for piano four-hands and percussion?
>

No, the percussion was added when Bartok got his hands on it.

RK

Sacquboutier

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 10:45:25 AM6/4/07
to
On 2007-06-04 10:26:44 -0400, rkhalona <rkha...@hotmail.com> said:

> On Jun 3, 10:50 am, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 17:00:17 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
>>

>> <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Paul Goldstein <pgold...@newsguy.com> appears to have caused the followi
> ng
>>> letters to be typed innews:f3uqk...@drn.newsguy.com:
>>
>>>> In article <Xns99445E2F96211quackandf...@207.217.125.201>, Matthew B.
>>>> Tepper says...
>>
>>>>> Don, have you *heard* the Japanese CD? A "yes" or "no" reply will
>>>>> suffice.
>>
>>>> Of course he hasn't. He was reasoning abstractly from premises that he
>>>> assumed were unassailable (R&H "security" is impregnable, for example).
>>
>>> Let's step back, look at this dispassionately, and wait for Don to answe
> r the
>>> question at hand.
>>
>> He already did. Doing his Deacon impersonation. He will have no
>> further statement
>>
>
> Wait, he didn't say "HA HA HA HA!" Did he?
>
> RK

..or "go blow your horn".

Message has been deleted

Soundfield

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 12:51:15 PM6/4/07
to
Nonsense. I am very aware of the security involved in getting into
and out of the R&H Archives, and based on that security I made my
statement.

dd

On Jun 2, 7:36 pm, rkhalona <rkhal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
[...]

Soundfield

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 1:01:28 PM6/4/07
to
No, Matthew, I have NOT heard the Japanese CD. I didn't get it
specifically because I am aware of the security issues surrounding ALL
of the holdings of the R&H Archives at Lincoln Center -- not just the
Toscanini Legacy Collection -- and, based on the fact that there has
never surfaced an alternate 1935 aircheck, I felt certain this was a
fake and do not want to get ripped off. And besides, if you take
Berky as an authority, this is the man who has taken off Bruckner and
Mahler and other romantic composers off of Connecticut Public Radio
and replaced them with happy-chatter endless baroque music all day
long, so I find his statements immediately suspect.

As for ansermaniac, he obviously resents the fact that Arthur Fierro
was hired by the Maestro's own son, Walter, in the 1960s; packed away
and inventoried that Toscanini Legacy collection after Walter's stroke
in 1968; has been good friends with David Sarser, Walfredo Toscanini,
Harvey Sachs, and has had professional associations with Seth Winner
in the transfers of numerous BMG and Sony historical titles; and
unpacked and checked the inventory of that same Toscanini Legacy
collection when it was acquired by the NYPL in 1986. Clearly, Powell
has fantasies about being the only person who knows each and every
single fact surrounding Toscanini's recordings. Moreover, Powell's
hero is Jack Pfeiffer, who gave us all those fake-stereo Toscanini
reissues in the early 1970s, failed to give us straight mono transfers
of a dozen AT Collection titles on CDs in 1991 -- still more reasons
to doubt that the Aria CD is for real.

dd

On Jun 3, 12:15 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:
> [...]


>
> Don, have you *heard* the Japanese CD? A "yes" or "no" reply will suffice.
>
> --
> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!

> My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
> My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html

John Wilson

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 1:03:34 PM6/4/07
to
On Mon, 4 Jun 2007 10:45:25 -0400, Sacquboutier <Nos...@somewhere.net>
wrote:

or suggest that one should do something anatomically impossible to
one's ear.

John

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 1:39:50 PM6/4/07
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 10:01:28 -0700, Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Jun 3, 12:15 pm, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> Don, have you *heard* the Japanese CD? A "yes" or "no" reply will suffice.
>>
>> --
>> Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
>> My personal home page --http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
>> My main music page ---http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
>> To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
>> Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
>


Wrong again. I think Jack Pfeiffer is ultimately responsible for the
garbage put out by BMG under the AT Collection banner. Shouldn't he
know better than to hire Fierro and Nathaniel Johnson as his
assistants.

You seem to like to judge yourself and your friends by the friends
they have. I want you to judge me by the enemies I have

Go to Opershare and get my Ansermet Tricorne to see what recorded
sound should be. I used the open reel as a source

Abbedd

Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood.
- HL Mencken

Taffy Brendel

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 1:54:10 PM6/4/07
to
There is no need for you to get "ripped off". Thanks apparently to a
retired failed DJ, the recording has has been made public for all to
hear. It has been uploaded to Opera Share I believe. You can
download it for free and hear it. Have you heard the recording at the
R&H archives? If so, you can compare the two recordings for
yourself.

You seem to be miffed that everyone is able to hear the recording for
themselves now. Why are you so disturbed by this? I have heard the
recording which is I believe authentic based on the testimony of those
persons who have heard the recording housed at R&H and the MFTV and
compared the two. The performance is interesting and does nothing to
harm the reputation of AT.

Taffy

> > Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Soundfield

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 3:10:05 PM6/4/07
to
Not true, Taffy. I don't want to see anyone ripped off, simple as
that. In my experience of at least 20 visits to the R&H Archives in
the last 15 years, I have personally been screened by security, on my
way in to listen to tapes. If someone DID pirate it successfully,
that would be a first.

I want very much to see it issued, and I'd like them to issue all
their other great stuff too -- I've spent too much time on gas and bus
and train fees to NYC not to want this stuff issued. Believe me. I
just don't want to see a fake put forward as the work of Toscanini, if
it is a fake, as I think it is.

dd

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 3:17:27 PM6/4/07
to
Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1180975875.821547.121840
@w5g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> Nonsense. I am very aware of the security involved in getting into
> and out of the R&H Archives, and based on that security I made my
> statement.

Security can be breached. And, based on the result, it obviously was.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!

My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 3:17:28 PM6/4/07
to
Taffy Brendel <taffy_...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the
following letters to be typed in news:1180979650.750780.93600
@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com:

> You seem to be miffed that everyone is able to hear the recording for
> themselves now.

Indeed, yesterday I listened to it in my own living room, sitting in my own
easy chair. Twice yet -- once in the morning and once in the evening.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!

My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html

Matthew B. Tepper

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 3:17:28 PM6/4/07
to
Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:1180976488.029634.320120
@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:

> No, Matthew, I have NOT heard the Japanese CD.

Case closed. You have called Berky, Snyder and me liars, without even
bothering to examine the evidence that any of us would have been pleased to
make available to you. I have not read the remainder of your post, and I
shall not do so. From this point on, you are wasting everybody's time.

Welcome to my killfile. When you actually *have* examined the evidence,
you will post here and the subject line will be, "Apology to those whom I
have wronged." I trust somebody will point it out to me at that time.

PLONK!

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!

My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 3:20:48 PM6/4/07
to
On Mon, 04 Jun 2007 19:17:28 GMT, "Matthew B. Tepper"
<oyþ@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
>letters to be typed in news:1180976488.029634.320120
>@q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>> No, Matthew, I have NOT heard the Japanese CD.
>
>Case closed. You have called Berky, Snyder and me liars, without even
>bothering to examine the evidence that any of us would have been pleased to
>make available to you. I have not read the remainder of your post, and I
>shall not do so. From this point on, you are wasting everybody's time.
>
>Welcome to my killfile. When you actually *have* examined the evidence,
>you will post here and the subject line will be, "Apology to those whom I
>have wronged." I trust somebody will point it out to me at that time.
>
>PLONK!

I couldn't have said it better. Good job Matthew


Abbedd

aleksios

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 3:24:08 PM6/4/07
to
On 2007-06-04 12:51:15 -0400, Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> said:

> [...] I am very aware of the security involved in getting into and


> out of the R&H Archives, and based on that security I made my

> statement. [...]

I have little interest in the subject itself, but the discussion is
absolutely fascinating. It's as if one was transported by a time
machine back to Europe before Aquinas. Consider what the quote above
amounts to: "I absolutely know B cannot be A, because I know A is an
box with a good lock; hence, I don't need to compare A and B." This is
like going to the zoo, and suddenly coming upon a cage with real live
dinosaur inside. Simply magnificent.

--Alex (the enthusiastic philistine)

Taffy Brendel

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 3:58:49 PM6/4/07
to
On Jun 4, 12:10 pm, Soundfield <dondrewe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not true, Taffy. I don't want to see anyone ripped off, simple as
> that. In my experience of at least 20 visits to the R&H Archives in
> the last 15 years, I have personally been screened by security, on my
> way in to listen to tapes. If someone DID pirate it successfully,
> that would be a first.

Simply put: Pandora's box has been opened (again apparently thanks to
the ministrations of the failed DJ).

You are confusing issues here. One can understand your upset at
seeing something stolen, if it indeed was stolen - no one here seems
to know for sure how this issue came into the public domain. Yet it
indeed seems to have become available - firsts happen you know. You
seem to be in denial about this happening, as if it was some
impossible event. Moreover, in one of your previous recent posts you
said that you did not want to be ripped off by buying the Aria release
- so what is it? Are you upset that it was stolen or are you upset
that it is legit and you didn't buy it? Your previous post hardly
protested its being stolen only that YOU would be ripped off. I along
with others have told you that you can acquire it for free to hear
it. You could listen to it and then throw it away if it bothers you
so much if only to compare the recordings. You could consider doing
so a research project and absolve yourself of the guilt of listening
to this contraband.

By your own admission you haven't heard the released recording yet you
deemed it a fake. I think you said that you have heard the recording
at R&H. Aren't you curious to compare the two recordings? Moreover,
without logical underpinnings you have impugned others who have posted
here who support the recording as authentic and they have compared the
two. Don't you feel a little silly about this? You really should
apologize to those rmcr contributors whom you demonize. They are
simply the messengers - they aren't selling anything.


>
> I want very much to see it issued, and I'd like them to issue all
> their other great stuff too -- I've spent too much time on gas and bus
> and train fees to NYC not to want this stuff issued. Believe me. I
> just don't want to see a fake put forward as the work of Toscanini, if
> it is a fake, as I think it is.

Oh, so you are upset that you have gone to great efforts to hear the
recording but now that others can listen to it without that effort you
are upset. It is no longer exclusive. Is that what's really
bothering you? Again, you claim it is a fake and you haven't even
heard it:-)!!! If you want this stuff legitimately issued, what are
doing about it? You seem to know all of the principals involved with
guarding the material from public availability so why don't you lobby
to have it released?

Taffy

>
> dd
>
> On Jun 4, 1:54 pm, Taffy Brendel <taffy_Bren...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > There is no need for you to get "ripped off". Thanks apparently to a
> > retired failed DJ, the recording has has been made public for all to
> > hear. It has been uploaded to Opera Share I believe. You can
> > download it for free and hear it. Have you heard the recording at the
> > R&H archives? If so, you can compare the two recordings for
> > yourself.
>
> > You seem to be miffed that everyone is able to hear the recording for
> > themselves now. Why are you so disturbed by this? I have heard the
> > recording which is I believe authentic based on the testimony of those
> > persons who have heard the recording housed at R&H and the MFTV and
> > compared the two. The performance is interesting and does nothing to
> > harm the reputation of AT.
>

> > Taffy- Hide quoted text -

rkhalona

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 4:46:47 PM6/4/07
to
On Jun 4, 12:24 pm, aleksios <alex0...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2007-06-04 12:51:15 -0400, Soundfield <dondrewe...@yahoo.com> said:
>
> > [...] I am very aware of the security involved in getting into and
> > out of the R&H Archives, and based on that security I made my
> > statement. [...]
>
> I have little interest in the subject itself, but the discussion is
> absolutely fascinating. It's as if one was transported by a time
> machine back to Europe before Aquinas. Consider what the quote above
> amounts to: "I absolutely know B cannot be A, because I know A is an
> box with a good lock; hence, I don't need to compare A and B." This is
> like going to the zoo, and suddenly coming upon a cage with real live
> dinosaur inside. Simply magnificent.
>

There is a single word in the English language that describes the
state Mr. Drewecki finds himself in: *denial*.

RK

Dontait...@aol.com

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 6:00:39 PM6/4/07
to

I have not commented on this before now, but I must say that since
you have heard the original and are familiar with it, the thing to do
is to listen to what has been published and make your judgment known.
Your experience with the original puts you in a position to do so (as
Matthew's does). As others have pointed out, you don't have to buy the
Aria CD and risk enriching a pirate or a faker. You can download it
for free.

I make no judgment about your motives. I merely think tha


Dontait...@aol.com

unread,
Jun 4, 2007, 6:04:19 PM6/4/07
to
>   I make no judgment about your motives. I merely think tha- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Woops -- sorry. This was accidentally sent incomplete. To conclude:

...I merely think that one cannot judge something without knowing
it.

Don Tait

Steve de Mena

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 3:13:37 AM6/5/07
to
Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:1180976488.029634.320120
> @q66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
>> No, Matthew, I have NOT heard the Japanese CD.
>
> Case closed. You have called Berky, Snyder and me liars, without even
> bothering to examine the evidence that any of us would have been pleased to
> make available to you. I have not read the remainder of your post, and I
> shall not do so. From this point on, you are wasting everybody's time.

I agree.

Steve

Soundfield

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 3:51:18 PM6/5/07
to
Evidently, Matthew forgets where he got a certain live Berlioz
performance with Colin Davis that was not issued by the London
Symphony Orchestra.

dd

Soundfield

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 3:57:33 PM6/5/07
to
I am _not_ in denial. Based on my many experiences going to the R&H
Archives (and also to the Museum of Television and Radio) security at
these places is so tight that I find it extremely difficult that
anyone could get _anything_ out of those places.

Hey, if people are upset, and they think that that CD is legit, fine.
I find it impossible that a collector/patron could have smuggled it
out, having been through the place many times.

dd

Taffy Brendel

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 4:09:59 PM6/5/07
to
> > RK- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

It seems as if logic and imagination are not your strong points.

Did it ever occur to you that perhaps as reported in another thread
that an "insider" simply took a copy home with him/her and then gave
it to someone who sent it to Japan?

I am sure that Seth Winner or perhaps some of his assistants can walk
in and out of the NYPL without being frisked. Moreover, they could
simply upload the files from the NYPL to a site outside of the NYPL.

Taffy

ansermetniac

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 4:17:33 PM6/5/07
to
On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:57:33 -0700, Soundfield <dondr...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I find it impossible that a collector/patron could have smuggled it
>out, having been through the place many times.

Inside Job??????

Abbedd

David Fox

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 4:25:17 PM6/5/07
to
On Jun 5, 1:17 pm, ansermetniac <ansermetn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 05 Jun 2007 12:57:33 -0700, Soundfield <dondrewe...@yahoo.com>

> wrote:
>
> >I find it impossible that a collector/patron could have smuggled it
> >out, having been through the place many times.
>
> Inside Job??????
>
> Abbedd

Could it be a coincidence that the CD release ocurred so shortly after
Seth Winner's lecture in which he played the Scherzo? He clearly
prepared (or made a copy of) a digital transfer for the occassion.
Who knows how many people had access to the copy?

In the age of CD-R's, flash drives, iPods, and uploads, there is no
such things as security tight enough to keep bytes in a building short
of complete military lockdown.

DF

Allen

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 4:42:03 PM6/5/07
to
Soundfield wrote:
> I am _not_ in denial.
<snip>
Oh, no, you aren't in denial--not at all.
Allen

rkhalona

unread,
Jun 5, 2007, 4:52:32 PM6/5/07
to
On Jun 5, 12:57 pm, Soundfield <dondrewe...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I am _not_ in denial.

C'mon RMCR donors. Drewecki needs a 12-step program.

RK

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