Brahms' Piano Quartet in C Minor opus 60
Ssg217
Was this discussed here, with available recordings and all?
I think this is another one of Brahms' many chamber music masterpieces. It may
be somewhat pushed into obscurity by one of its two genre brother, the G Minor
Piano Quartet, with its more accesible and otherwise highly enjoyable
"quasi-Hungarian" finale. Less fireworks in the C Minor, but just as much
music, if not more (the first movement is just fantastic, even by Brahms' high
standards, pure floating soulfulness captured in perfect form).
Any favorite recs?
regards,
SG
A. Brain
news:20040718050704...@mb-m14.aol.com...
Usually whatever one I am listening to, but speaking of
Brahms' many chamber music masterpieces, how do you
like the trios?
By the way, one of the Sony recordings never issued
on CD is one of the piano quintet featuring Leon Fleisher
and the Julliard Qt. (I had it on cassette once). Don't look
for this to be "reissued".
--
A. Brain
Remove NOSPAM for email.
Tom Deacon
ANrKc.107713$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, "A. Brain"
<abr...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote:
> By the way, one of the Sony recordings never issued
> on CD is one of the piano quintet featuring Leon Fleisher
> and the Julliard Qt. (I had it on cassette once). Don't look
> for this to be "reissued".
Why do I have the weirdest feeling that this recording HAS been reissued on
CD? I will conduct a search in my library, but I definitely feel that this
one has not been overlooked by Sony.
I agree, incidentally, that it is absolutely hair-raising in its intensity
and forward-drive. Fleisher in fine form.
TD
Peter Schenkman
Lani Spahr (http://home.comcast.net/%7Elitvr/) on his "Locked in the
Vault" reissue series has issued on CD (LITV Volume 67) the
Fleisher/Juilliard Quartet performance of the Brahms Quintet taken
from Epic BC 1265.
For the C Minor Piano Quartet, Opus 67 the finest performance(s) I've
heard of this masterpiece are not to be found on CD (unless they
somehow slipped through the cracks).
1. The New York Quartet (Schneider, Katims, F. Miller, Horszowski) on
Mercury LP (MG 10010).
2. Szigeti, Katims, Tortelier, Hess from the 1952 Casals Festival at
Prades on Columbia LP (ML 4712).
Peter Schenkman
Paul Goldstein
Again, Rubinstein/Guarneris for me.
Paul Goldstein
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:20040718050704...@mb-m14.aol.com:
Josef Szigeti, Milton Katims, Paul Tortelier, Dame Myra Hess, on Columbia
ML 4701. Never reissued on CD, but someday, I'll put on the cap'n hat and
will do so myself.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:ANrKc.107713$OB3.87033@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
Well, not by Sony, anyway.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in
> 2. Szigeti, Katims, Tortelier, Hess from the 1952 Casals Festival at
> Prades on Columbia LP (ML 4712).
Mine says ML 4701, last I looked (and catalogued it).
cde
> Any favorite recs?
Domus.
Steve Emerson
ssg...@aol.com (Ssg217) wrote:
> Any favorite recs?
The Menuhin Festival Piano Quartet. Beguilingly deft and astute, terrific
chamber playing, and as I mentioned once previously, attractively light on
kitchen aromas.
There's also a wonderful performance by Lubina with Dubinsky-led Borodin
Quartet members (Melodiya).
I'll have to contact Lani about Juilliard/Fleischer, which I don't know (nor
Szigeti/Hess et al, usually a winning combination).
SE.
Peter Schenkman
> peter_s...@hotmail.com (Peter Schenkman) appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
> news:35b39934.04071...@posting.google.com:
>
> > 2. Szigeti, Katims, Tortelier, Hess from the 1952 Casals Festival at
> > Prades on Columbia LP (ML 4712).
>
> Mine says ML 4701, last I looked (and catalogued it).
I'm looking at mine,not the entry but the 12 inch LP, ML 4712.
Peter Schenkman
Matthew B. Tepper
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:<Xns952A77AAED0...@207.217.125.202>...
>> peter_s...@hotmail.com (Peter Schenkman) appears to have caused
>> the following letters to be typed in
>> news:35b39934.04071...@posting.google.com:
>>
>> > 2. Szigeti, Katims, Tortelier, Hess from the 1952 Casals Festival at
>> > Prades on Columbia LP (ML 4712).
>>
>> Mine says ML 4701, last I looked (and catalogued it).
>
> I'm looking at mine, not the entry but the 12 inch LP, ML 4712.
And I'm looking at mine, and you won't be surprised to learn that my finger
must have slipped and I got the number wrong in cataloguing it. However, it
is not ML 4712, like yours, but ML 4702! The bottom of the back cover lists
nine other individual LPs, ML 4701 and 4703 through 4710, all of them from
the Casals Festival at Prades. Maybe there was an issue of the whole bunch
as separates, and also individually slipcased in a box?
Okay, now let's make some further comparisons. Mine has a blue front, with a
"5th anniversary special" circle in the upper left corner, the "LP" logo
circle in the upper right, the words "casals festival at prades" in ornate
font, a rectangle with "THIRD SERIES" surrounded by a couple of phoenixes,
"BRAHMS" on a line by itself, "QUARTET NO. 3 IN C MINOR for piano and
strings--opus 60" and the names and instruments of the performers, "Columbia
masterworks," "ORIGINATOR OF THE MODERN LONG PLAYING RECORD," and finally a
copyright notice in the lower left and the name "Ronald Clyne" in the lower
right. The record labels are bronze, not blue, and bear the words "LIMITED
EDITION." So mine may have been from out of the slipcase. Les Gerber seems
to have had ML 4712 for sale at one point, but not 4702, so it's possible
mine may be the rarer edition. I see that I paid $21 for it back in 1989.
Peter Schenkman
> peter_s...@hotmail.com (Peter Schenkman) appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in
>
> > "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyş@earthlink.net> wrote in message
Mine doesn't say "Limited Edition" everything else is identical so I'd
assume you're "out of the slipcase" theory is correct. I like the
forty nine-cent price I got mine for a lot more then your $21.00
particularly as the performance is the same.
I find it very strange that the New York Quartet with both Mercury and
Columbia issued LP's, probably the finest group of it's sort ever
assembled on record, has never found it's way onto CD. The mainstream
repertoire for that combination isn't very large and they did most of
it. Much as I like the Brahms C Minor Quartet from the Prades foursome
I marginally prefer the New York group. The Festival Quartet is
another recorded Piano Quartet that still languishes in the vaults,
which is a bit strange, as their violist Mr. Primrose is certainly a
known quantity.
Peter Schenkman
Alan Cooper
Schenkman) wrote:
>The Festival Quartet is
>another recorded Piano Quartet that still languishes in the vaults,
>which is a bit strange, as their violist Mr. Primrose is certainly a
>known quantity.
It languishes only on this side of the Pacific. The Festival Quartet
recordings of the three Brahms Quartet + their Schubert "Trout"
Quintet were issued in a 2-CD set in the Japanese RCA Vintage Red Seal
Collection. I cannot speak to current availability, though. They are
outstanding performances.
AC
Alan Cooper
<eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>In article <20040718050704...@mb-m14.aol.com>,
> ssg...@aol.com (Ssg217) wrote:
>
>> Any favorite recs?
>
>
>The Menuhin Festival Piano Quartet. Beguilingly deft and astute, terrific
>chamber playing, and as I mentioned once previously, attractively light on
>kitchen aromas.
I bought these on Steve's recommendation, and they are terrific.
>There's also a wonderful performance by Lubina with Dubinsky-led Borodin
>Quartet members (Melodiya).
That's Luba Edlina, and this is indeed a wonderful set of the
Quartets, considerably more "aromatic" than the MFPQ version ;-) The
Melodiya set should not be confused with the later Borodin version on
Chandos. The later performances are good, too, but the op. 60 Quartet
is annoyingly divided across two CDs. I assume, btw, that Steve has
the Melodiyas on LP, unless they were reissued unbeknownst to me.
>I'll have to contact Lani about Juilliard/Fleischer, which I don't know (nor
>Szigeti/Hess et al, usually a winning combination).
Just to avoid confusion, note that the Fleisher / Julliard is a
recording of the f-m Piano Quintet, not the c-m Piano Quartet that is
the subject of this thread.
Another set of the Quartets that is worth seeking out is by the
Quartetto Beethoven di Roma on Dynamic. These, too are excellent
performances, by a group that includes the violinist Felix Ayo (of I
Musici fame) and the pianist Carlo Bruno.
AC
Tom Deacon
"Alan Cooper" <amco...@nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
Would you really say that, Alan. I never thought that Victor Babin was my
ideal pianist in these works. He is certainly no Rubinstein! And speaking of
Primrose, he was no longer the great violist that he had been, alas.
I do feel, however, that RCA should reissue these recordings outside of
Japan. They were all recorded in fine Living Stereo sound. There was also a
Beethoven and Schumann Quartet that they recorded earlier than the Brahms.
Incidentally, if I am not mistaken, the outstanding violinist Szymon
Goldberg was the violinist in this ensemble. The Japanese worship him, you
know. He married a Japanese woman late in life and must have made his home
there towards the end.
TD
Alan Cooper
<deac...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 7/19/04 9:58 AM, in article 6dknf0h04mm5f0nkd...@4ax.com,
>"Alan Cooper" <amco...@nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>> On 19 Jul 2004 05:01:31 -0700, peter_s...@hotmail.com (Peter
>> Schenkman) wrote:
>>
>>> The Festival Quartet is
>>> another recorded Piano Quartet that still languishes in the vaults,
>>> which is a bit strange, as their violist Mr. Primrose is certainly a
>>> known quantity.
>>
>> It languishes only on this side of the Pacific. The Festival Quartet
>> recordings of the three Brahms Quartet + their Schubert "Trout"
>> Quintet were issued in a 2-CD set in the Japanese RCA Vintage Red Seal
>> Collection. I cannot speak to current availability, though. They are
>> outstanding performances.
>
>Would you really say that, Alan. I never thought that Victor Babin was my
>ideal pianist in these works. He is certainly no Rubinstein! And speaking of
>Primrose, he was no longer the great violist that he had been, alas.
I should have mentioned that I learned the works from these
recordings, and therefore "imprinting" may partially account for my
continued affection for them. I purchased the CD reissue the instant
it appeared in Japan. Babin isn't my ideal Brahmsian, either, but I
still find the performances engaging.
>I do feel, however, that RCA should reissue these recordings outside of
>Japan. They were all recorded in fine Living Stereo sound. There was also a
>Beethoven and Schumann Quartet that they recorded earlier than the Brahms.
>Incidentally, if I am not mistaken, the outstanding violinist Szymon
>Goldberg was the violinist in this ensemble. The Japanese worship him, you
>know. He married a Japanese woman late in life and must have made his home
>there towards the end.
Yes, Goldberg is wonderful in these recordings. It's a shame that
many listeners have gotten to know him only from his collaboration
with Lupu, by which time the violinist was well past his prime.
Incidentally, some time ago I posted a query on rmcr about the
"unknown" member of the Festival Quartet, the 'cellist Nikolai
Graudan. A few moths after that, I received an e-mail from a relative
of the 'cellist, a retired professor of medicine who lives in
Minneapolis. He wrote (in part): "Russian Nicolai Graudan
(18961964) followed Piatigorsky as solo cellist of the Berlin
Philharmonic. Germany under the Nazis became untenable, so Graudan
went to London and on to the U.S., playing principal with the
Minneapolis Symphony before relocating to Los Angeles. Graudan taught
at the Aspen Festival and the Music Academy of the West in Santa
Barbara, and joined Primrose’s Festival Quartet."
AC
Tom Deacon
"Alan Cooper" <amco...@nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
> (1896ť1964) followed Piatigorsky as solo cellist of the Berlin
> Philharmonic. Germany under the Nazis became untenable, so Graudan
> went to London and on to the U.S., playing principal with the
> Minneapolis Symphony before relocating to Los Angeles. Graudan taught
> at the Aspen Festival and the Music Academy of the West in Santa
> Barbara, and joined Primroseąs Festival Quartet."
Fascinating information.
All of which should accompany any reissue of these recordings, which have
truly fallen by the wayside at RCA over the years. Only the Trout had any
further life on LP, I think.
TD
Peter Schenkman
Which still leaves the dilemma of the missing New York Quartet's
recordings for Mercury and Columbia. In my opinion a far finer
ensemble then The Festival foursome.
Peter Schenkman
Tom Deacon
35b39934.0407...@posting.google.com, "Peter Schenkman"
<peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The Mercury recordings must be pre-Bob Fine.
The Columbia, I don't even know them.
TD
Steve Emerson
Alan Cooper <amco...@nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 01:04:44 GMT, Steve Emerson
> <eme...@nospamsonic.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <20040718050704...@mb-m14.aol.com>,
> > ssg...@aol.com (Ssg217) wrote:
> >
> >> Any favorite recs?
> >
> >
> >The Menuhin Festival Piano Quartet. Beguilingly deft and astute, terrific
> >chamber playing, and as I mentioned once previously, attractively light on
> >kitchen aromas.
>
> I bought these on Steve's recommendation, and they are terrific.
And I rush to mention that Alan's recommendation was why I sought out the
below-mentioned Borodin Qt recording.
> >There's also a wonderful performance by Lubina with Dubinsky-led Borodin
> >Quartet members (Melodiya).
>
> That's Luba Edlina,
Always have trouble with that name. And never more than when gazing at a
jacket entirely in Russian. Fortunately I know what Brahms looks like and can
read the 3 and the 60.
KBAPTET moves over pretty easily too.
> and this is indeed a wonderful set of the
> Quartets, considerably more "aromatic" than the MFPQ version ;-)
But a lot more discreetly aromatic than Guraneri/Rubinstein, for instance...
> The
> Melodiya set should not be confused with the later Borodin version on
> Chandos. The later performances are good, too, but the op. 60 Quartet
> is annoyingly divided across two CDs. I assume, btw, that Steve has
> the Melodiyas on LP, unless they were reissued unbeknownst to me.
Yes, LP; just the Op 60 in fact. And I'll second your liking for the Chandos
(Borodin Trio) issue (the Qt #2 is especially strong) -- often seen cheaply
btw in an MHS release.
> >I'll have to contact Lani about Juilliard/Fleischer, which I don't know (nor
> >Szigeti/Hess et al, usually a winning combination).
>
> Just to avoid confusion, note that the Fleisher / Julliard is a
> recording of the f-m Piano Quintet, not the c-m Piano Quartet that is
> the subject of this thread.
Oh. Thanks. Then I'm a bit less curious.
SE.
Peter Schenkman
I have two LP's on the Columbia label of the group:
1. Faure: First Piano Quartet, Opus 15 paired with Martinu's Quartet
written in 1942 (ML 5343)
2. Brahms: Horn Trio (Mason Jones) paired with Schumann Quartet, Opus
47 (ML 4892)
The two Mercury LP's I have are:
Brahms: Piano Quartet No. 1, Opus 25 (10011)
Brahms: Piano Quartet No. 3, Opus 67 (10010)
Performances are the equal of any.
The Mercury LP's I would guess are earlier then 1952, the Columbia's
would be somewhat later. Back then dates on record jackets were
something of a rarity. If anyone has knowledge of more records by the
group I'd like to know.
Peter Schenkman
Lena
>
> Always have trouble with that name. And never more than when gazing at a
> jacket entirely in Russian. Fortunately I know what Brahms looks like and can
> read the 3 and the 60.
>
> KBAPTET moves over pretty easily too.
And if you exchange the B for another letter, it can be a somewhat
brusque but refreshingly honest self-appraisal by ensemble in
question. (Though maybe not in this case.)
Lena
John Wiser
> > >> "Alan Cooper" <amco...@nospamoptonline.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Which still leaves the dilemma of the missing New York Quartet's
> > > recordings for Mercury and Columbia. In my opinion a far finer
> > > ensemble then The Festival foursome.
> > >
> > > Peter Schenkman
> >
> > The Mercury recordings must be pre-Bob Fine.
> >
> > The Columbia, I don't even know them.
> >
> > TD
>
>
> I have two LP's on the Columbia label of the group:
>
> 1. Faure: First Piano Quartet, Opus 15 paired with Martinu's Quartet
> written in 1942 (ML 5343)
>
> 2. Brahms: Horn Trio (Mason Jones) paired with Schumann Quartet, Opus
> 47 (ML 4892)
>
> The two Mercury LP's I have are:
>
> Brahms: Piano Quartet No. 1, Opus 25 (10011)
>
> Brahms: Piano Quartet No. 3, Opus 67 (10010)
>
> Performances are the equal of any.
>
> The Mercury LP's I would guess are earlier then 1952, the Columbia's
> would be somewhat later. Back then dates on record jackets were
> something of a rarity. If anyone has knowledge of more records by the
> group I'd like to know.
When did you last listen to the last few bars of the NYQ's Fauré,
Mr. Schenkman? I've never found a copy which wasn't grossly defective.
Columbia ML 4421 contains their account of Aaron Copland's 1950 Piano
Quartet when it was pretty damn' new, coupled with the Concerto for
Clarinet and Strings [Goodman/ColSym/Copland, harpist and pianist
uncredited]. I have it here.
The string players sans Horszowski also recorded the Trio for Violin,
Viola, and Cello of Heitor Villa-Lobos, issued as a 10" mono Columbia LP.
Once owned twice shy, however, of the music if not of the performance.
All this date-speculation may be dispelled by anyone who has a copy of
"Record
Ratings" handy. I don't.
John Wiserleather
cee...@frontiernet.not
Tom Deacon
35b39934.04072...@posting.google.com, "Peter Schenkman"
<peter_s...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The Mercuries are long before the real establishment of Mercury Living
Presence by Robert Fine and Wilma Cozart.
Abe Chasins and Connie Keene also recorded for Mercury at that time, as well
as others.
But once the label got the go-ahead for Wilma to contract Kubelik and Dorati
and Janis and Szeryng and others these items were simply forgotten. Part of
another era at the label.
I have seen some of the old Mercury tapes in Baarn, but I am not sure how
many of them have survived. Perhaps all of them for all I know.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:01c46ec3$50144400$d920d2d1@candacew:
> Columbia ML 4421 contains their account of Aaron Copland's 1950 Piano
> Quartet when it was pretty damn' new, coupled with the Concerto for
> Clarinet and Strings [Goodman/ColSym/Copland, harpist and pianist
> uncredited]. I have it here.
I think that recording of the Clarinet Concerto is the only Columbia
recording of Copland as performer that was never reissued on CD by Sony.
All things considered, they did a mighty fine job of issuing his self-
recorded legacy in the new medium, and that includes the "Appalachian
Spring" rehearsal, too, as I've noted before.
Dan Koren
Long time ago....
dk
"Ssg217" <ssg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040718050704...@mb-m14.aol.com...
>
> Was this discussed here, with available recordings and all?
>
> I think this is another one of Brahms' many chamber music masterpieces. It
may
> be somewhat pushed into obscurity by one of its two genre brother, the G
Minor
> Piano Quartet, with its more accesible and otherwise highly enjoyable
> "quasi-Hungarian" finale. Less fireworks in the C Minor, but just as much
> music, if not more (the first movement is just fantastic, even by Brahms'
high
> standards, pure floating soulfulness captured in perfect form).
>
> Any favorite recs?
>
> regards,
> SG
Manilov
Don't know any of these, so perhaps I shouldn't comment, but I have
found myself enjoying the recent EMI Lars Vogt et. al. release a lot
(and it's cheap). I vaguely recall the Hollywood Qt's version as
rather too generic, but it's been a while.
P Manilov
Ssg217
I am listening to the Ax-Stern-Jaime Laredo-Yo-yo-Pa as we sepak and I am
rather disappointed. Noisy, crude and pompously dark, without penetrating into
the music and its beauty.
regards,
SG
Dan Koren
No, it is actually Oy, Oy Ma!
dk
Sergey Nikitin
Dan Koren
> Many thanks!
Following up after 18 years ?!?
dk
Bob Harper
long visit to OZ, whwere our daughter and her family live. While there,
we heard the Sydney Symphony do the Brahms PC 1 with Simon Trpčeski. For
an encore, Trpčeski played the slow movement from Op. 60 with the
concertmaster, the solo viola, and the solo cello. It was the best music
making of the evening (an OK performance of the Tchaikovsky 4th was the
second half).
Bob Harper