Mahler 3: Haitink? Seriously?
MW
that is weighted down by a total lack of energy, spontaneity, or feel
for what Mahler is about besides perfectly played notes. Did some
marketing nitwit hear the Haitink BPO three and think that they needed
their own version of that? Is that their idea of Mahler? If the CSO
wanted to sell CDs, the recording they have made a case for today is
Martinon's. I sure hope that they find better fare for their future
releases on their label. Or shall we see another Pictures?
Richar...@gmail.com
What a pity. I've been listening to a live Haitink Mahler 3 (VPO 1995)
thanks to Opera Share and have admired it a great deal.
td
> The CSO sounds fantastic, but that can't make up for a performance
> that is weighted down by a total lack of energy, spontaneity, or feel
> for what Mahler is about besides perfectly played notes.
What is stunning about such jejeune opinions is their "toupet".
That some Internet voice should impugn a musician who probably has
forgotten more than the poster will ever know about Gustav Mahler and
his Symphony No. 3 is a sign of our times: democracy run rampant.
This is an argument for the return of royalty.
"Off with his head!" would be a good solution, I think.
TD
Sacqueboutier
No one really cares what you think.
One could easily use the exact same rhetoric the
next time TD casts his "superior" knowledge to
the wind, don't you think. But then, that would
be an exercise in futility, wouldn't it? He's so
superior to the rest of us. Our opinions regarding
musical performances and recordings aren't
relevant. We're just the ones who buy his
products.
Thanks TD. You're serving as a prime example
of what is wrong in the business today.
BTW, please call the nurse. You're diaper
needs changing again.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Michael Schaffer
Yes, that one is really very good. There is a lot of fine musical
detail *and* "live excitement". I also have a live one with Haitink
and the BP from around 2001 or so. That one is really nice, too. The
studio recording he made for Philips in Berlin around 1990 or so is
indeed not very "exciting", and while it also shows a lot of attention
for fine detail, it is not as expressive and lyrical as some of those
later ones. I like to listen to it sometimes though because I like the
transparency and classical balance Haitink brings to the performance.
I haven't hear the new one yet, but would really like to, especially
because I think the CSO is always best with such conductors who don't
let them (or even encourage them) to hack and slash and blare through
the music, but who restrain them in the interest of a better overall
picture (like Abbado and Giulini in the past). Haitink would be
exactly the right man to do that.
I just wonder right now what the feel for what Mahler is about besides
the notes is supposed to be, and how the OP thinks he has acquired
that while Haitink hasn't? Please clarify.
MW
> I just wonder right now what the feel for what Mahler is about besides
> the notes is supposed to be, and how the OP thinks he has acquired
> that while Haitink hasn't? Please clarify.
No claims to anything other then a subjective viewpoint and my own
taste. I just think Mahler is about more than bar-lines. I want a
sense of the orchestra sections playing off each other, not all
carefully watching the baton-beating. I want erruptions and
transformations, not patiently layered leveles of sound, all part of
the same long line of music. I want a conductor with the nerve to
push forward, not continually hold back and be patient. Mahler 3 may
look like a marathon, but I want a conductor who plays it more like a
succession of shorter races. I don't want Mahler coducted like
Bruckner.
MW
or the BP CSO broadcast site. Anyone who wants to talk about the
performance, even if it is to say I'm full of it, can do so.
Does anyone here think Haitink's record as a Mahler conductor is some
sort of gold mine? His second "cycle" with the BPO was abandoned for
good reason, as far as I can judge (anyone want to buy my DVDs of
1-3?). But they all seemed true to Haitink's temperment in this
music. And while some must like that, I don't.
I'll be hunting for that VPO performance...
Michael Schaffer
> The performance can be streamed for free from either the CSO website
> or the BP CSO broadcast site. Anyone who wants to talk about the
> performance, even if it is to say I'm full of it, can do so.
I don't think you are that important to anyone here that he or she
would listen to 90 minutes of streaming audio just to say "you are
full of it".
But I checked the website and couldn't find any complete streams
(those look like they were live only). I did find a few excerpts in
very compressed quality from almost nothing can be deducted, certainly
not about the performance in general, except that the woodwinds
apparently play some wrong notes in excerpt 1 and that the trombones
apparently still prefer playing loud above good phrasing. I thought
Haitink had fixed that.
> Does anyone here think Haitink's record as a Mahler conductor is some
> sort of gold mine? His second "cycle" with the BPO was abandoned for
> good reason, as far as I can judge
Which isn't very far, really. You don't seem to be able or even
willing to to look at this in a differentiated way. Which is pretty
essential when it comes to such complex music as Mahler. Nobody said
Haitink's record is generally a "gold mine". I don't even understand
what that means. His *recordings* certainly are because they contain a
lot of good stuff. But that doesn't mean all of it is "great" and one
"must" like it. But Haitink certainly has a lot to say about this
repertoire. You could learn a lot from just listening to his
recordings with more open ears.
But not from listening to tem on the "L" with all the noise around, on
bad headphones. That won't work.
You didn't tell us what the feel or what the music is about is
supposed to be. I mean, in your view. There are many different views
about that obviously. But no, it's not the way the CSO played the
music under Solti. That was just nasty.
> (anyone want to buy my DVDs of
> 1-3?).
Maybe. I didn't think the performances were all that "great" either
(but still very good), but "I like to watch". How much do you want for
these?
> But they all seemed true to Haitink's temperment in this
> music. And while some must like that, I don't.
Nobody "must". But it certainly is a good idea to listen to some of
his contributions.
> I'll be hunting for that VPO performance...
You don't have to hunt. You can just download it here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/3268124/Mahler_3__part_1.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/3269682/Mahler_3__part_2.zip
http://rapidshare.com/files/3271191/Mahler_3__part_3.zip
or here:
http://rapidshare.com/files/13486570/Mahler_Feest_CD_3.zip
Jard van Nes, contralto
Boy's Choir from St.Bavo Cathedral, Haarlem
Wiener Philharmoniker
Bernard Haitink
May 7, 1995
Michael Schaffer
I see. I didn't see that when I first replied to you. Good news:
Haitink isn't all "barlines" either. He is a fairly linear conductor.
You may see that if you just relax and listen again. Don't be
disappointed and throw a recording into the corner immediately when it
doesn't meet your expectations. Maybe you should listen to it later.
Or you can send me the discs if you really don't want them.
Richard Schultz
: I see. I didn't see that when I first replied to you. Good news:
: Haitink isn't all "barlines" either. He is a fairly linear conductor.
: You may see that if you just relax and listen again. Don't be
: disappointed and throw a recording into the corner immediately when it
: doesn't meet your expectations. Maybe you should listen to it later.
: Or you can send me the discs if you really don't want them.
If you think that Haitink is a great (or even particularly good) Mahler
conductor, then perhaps you should think twice the next time you decide
that you want to post one of your pontifications about how you understand
Mahler so much better than anyone not steeped in the proper tradition.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"We cannot see how any of his music can long survive him."
-- From the New York Daily Tribune obituary of Gustav Mahler
td
> On 2007-05-06 17:29:47 -0400, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> said:
>
>
>
> > On May 6, 3:43 pm, MW <tinti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> The CSO sounds fantastic, but that can't make up for a performance
> >> that is weighted down by a total lack of energy, spontaneity, or feel
> >> for what Mahler is about besides perfectly played notes.
>
> > What is stunning about such jejeune opinions is their "toupet".
>
> > That some Internet voice should impugn a musician who probably has
> > forgotten more than the poster will ever know about Gustav Mahler and
> > his Symphony No. 3 is a sign of our times: democracy run rampant.
>
> > This is an argument for the return of royalty.
>
> > "Off with his head!" would be a good solution, I think.
>
> > TD
>
> No one really cares what you think.
And even less what you think.
> One could easily use the exact same rhetoric the
> next time TD casts his "superior" knowledge to
> the wind, don't you think. But then, that would
> be an exercise in futility, wouldn't it? He's so
> superior to the rest of us.
Sometimes, Donny, you stumble onto a universal truth. Just chance, I
know, because you're about as stupid a dork as it is possible to
imagine.
Our opinions regarding
> musical performances and recordings aren't
> relevant. We're just the ones who buy his
> products.
I don't make products, Donny.
> Thanks TD. You're serving as a prime example
> of what is wrong in the business today.
"The business", as you call it, if it is suffering at all, is
suffering from a surfeit of dorks like you who don't know their ass
from a hole in the wall.
> BTW, please call the nurse. You're diaper needs changing again.
Not yet, please. Let me first wipe my shit all over your post, Donny.
> I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
No. You'd give both arms for a brain.
TD
td
> His second "cycle" with the BPO was abandoned for
> good reason, as far as I can judge.
You can't judge, because you don't know.
The cycle was abandoned because Philips could no longer afford the
costs either for the Mahler or the Bruckner cycle, which involved the
two most expensive orchestras in the world.
Money, you see.
That makes the world go round. Or not.
TD
td
> In article <1178528739.498314.225...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Michael Schaffer <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> : I see. I didn't see that when I first replied to you. Good news:
> : Haitink isn't all "barlines" either. He is a fairly linear conductor.
> : You may see that if you just relax and listen again. Don't be
> : disappointed and throw a recording into the corner immediately when it
> : doesn't meet your expectations. Maybe you should listen to it later.
> : Or you can send me the discs if you really don't want them.
>
> If you think that Haitink is a great (or even particularly good) Mahler
> conductor, then perhaps you should think twice the next time you decide
> that you want to post one of your pontifications about how you understand
> Mahler so much better than anyone not steeped in the proper tradition.
The same can be said if you think Haitink is NOT a great or even
particularly good Mahler conductor.
TD
MW
> I see. I didn't see that when I first replied to you. Good news:
> Haitink isn't all "barlines" either. He is a fairly linear conductor.
> You may see that if you just relax and listen again. Don't be
> disappointed and throw a recording into the corner immediately when it
> doesn't meet your expectations. Maybe you should listen to it later.
I'm perfectly familiar with Haitink, and I really appreciate and enjoy
most of what I own. I even enjoy his manner in his RCO Brahms cycle,
for instance, even though it isn't to some tastes. My demands here
are specific to Mahler, and especially this symphony. I just don't
like a "cool" approach to the music.
MW
> The same can be said if you think Haitink is NOT a great or even
> particularly good Mahler conductor.
> TD
Plenty of things can be said, but it doesn't make them persuasive, let
alone right. Right now you are neither.
Haitink's Mahler is stylistically consistent. He clearly has a point
of view, and that manner in Mahler 3 is consistent with his manners in
other music, other composers. While I like the latter quite
frequently, I dislike the former, especially if the orchestra is not
the RCO.
Do you have anything credible to offer here? Do you actually like
anything about Haitink's Mahler? What, specifically? If you all you
have are your "wise man" generalizations, please shut up.
MW
face. Watch your e-mail a few days form now and you can compare the
two. I may have been very wrong to put this on Haitink's shoulders.
It may in fact be a Haitink + BPO or CSO vs. Haitink vs. RCO or VPO.
phlmae...@yahoo.com
Or it may just be that Haitink has some nights that are better than
others. Your reaction to the Haitink/CSO is virtually identical to
mine after hearing the VPO play the third under Boulez in New York
perhaps six or eight years ago. So while I'm sure others who heard
that performance would disagree with me, IMO, the VPO is capable of
playing an emotionally unsatisfying Mahler 3rd.
On the other hand, the only time I saw Haitink live it was with the
VPO and they played a fantastic Bruckner 8. Maybe their chemistry is
well suited to certain repertoire.
Barry
td
> Do you have anything credible to offer here?
First of all, I have a name.
You don't.
> Do you actually like anything about Haitink's Mahler?
Everything.
Particularly it's total lack of hysteria.
> What, specifically?
See above.
> If you all you have are your "wise man" generalizations, please shut up.
Only AFTER you manage to flesh out your previous trashing of one of
our greatest interpreters of Mahler's music.
As I said before. I welcome the return of royalty. They would issue a
quick and summary "Off with his head!"
After wish I would not even have to request your silence.
TD
MW
I'm sorry, you must be looking for a newsgroup exclusively for people
with names (although I expect you would still insist that the people
there didn't have names).
> > Do you actually like anything about Haitink's Mahler?
> Everything. Particularly it's total lack of hysteria.
Oh, come on- don't stop there. This is far too interesting.
> > If you all you have are your "wise man" generalizations, please shut up.
> Only AFTER you manage to flesh out your previous trashing of one of
> our greatest interpreters of Mahler's music.
This goes right up there with your greatest lies. Everyone here knows
you are incapable of shutting up.
> As I said before. I welcome the return of royalty. They would issue a quick and summary "Off with his head!" After wish I would not even have to request your silence.
You sound like someone who has played too many Dungeons & Dragons
games.
Yours,
Nameless
td
MW wrote:
> You sound like someone who has played too many Dungeons & Dragons
> games.
>
> Yours,
> Nameless
Get a life.
Then get a name.
Then perhaps we can talk.
Or probably not.
TD
Matthew B. Tepper
be typed in news:1178560365.7...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
[to deacon]
> You sound like someone who has played too many Dungeons & Dragons games.
D&D isn't one of my interests, but some of my friends enjoy role-playing
quite a bit (and most of them are quite functional, nowhere near as
"geeky" as the stereotype). They're pretty accepting of other people's
foibles and personality flaws. But I don't think they'd accept Deacon.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
bob.h...@comcast.net
(snip)
> Which is pretty essential
There are no degrees of essence.
Re Haitink's Mahler 3, the referenced performance with the VPO is
outstanding.
Like so many other conductors, he appears to be much freer (a good
thing) live than
in the studio.
Bob Harper
(snip)
J.Martin
> sort of gold mine?
Um, well, yes, upon reflection, maybe not a goldmine, but not at all
bad, either. I like the "Kirstmatinee" set as a whole, and I would
rate the Philips 3rd quite highly, and then there are those marvellous
Mahler Feest performances of 3 and 6, and come to think of it the
Philips 9 isn't bad, either, nor his DLVDE.
For me, the issue isn't whether Haitink is competent to conduct
Mahler, but why, oh why, Chicago would choose to record him in a work
he's already done, what, four previous commercial recordings of. The
present recording would really have to be something amazing for me to
feel like I needed to own it in addition to the versions I already
have.
J.
jrs...@aol.com
For me it really doesn't have to be amazing. I want the latest CSO
recordings (whatever they want to throw at us as long as it has great
oboe parts is fine with me). And this is a wonderful Mahler 3, not
surprisingly, so I'm happy with what I've heard.
However, for most buyers I absolutely agree. The problem is, you can't
expect Haitink to learn lots of new music these days, at this stage in
his career...unless he really wants to. Would he do some Persichetti
for us?
--Jeff
jrs...@aol.com
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion about the performance,
but I think you should set it aside and try it again when you're in an
unhurried, focused mood. Not that I find this new performance
particularly slow, but I do not think you are right about a lack of
energy, or a lack of spontaneity. There's a lot more than perfectly
played notes (plenty of those, of course) and the barlines do not get
in the way of phrasing.
I came to this with the same trepidation you had--what sort of
marketing blunder would bring us yet another M3 from Haitink? I still
feel that way, but I enjoyed the performance more than a lot.
A couple things to keep in mind when comparing to Haitink's Vienna
Phil performance from Amsterdam Mahlerfeest...First, the hall is much
different and that lovely Concertgebouw acoustic counts for something.
Second, the new performance is definitely slower in some key ways. The
first movement and more importantly the third movement are both about
a minute-and-a-half longer now. It was in the third movement (and
somewhat at the end of the first movement) that I wished Haitink had
let the reins loose and accelerated more where acceleration would have
pumped the blood a little faster. However, his control paid other
dividends. (The last movement, however, takes slightly longer in the
earlier performance.). Actually, while I prefer the 3rd movement to go
a little quicker in places, I like Haitink's tempo for the posthorn
solo in Chicago: I prefer the way it takes a little more time to get
going than the other WP which seems to kind of stride unsentimentally
straight through the first phrases.
There are many differences between orchestras which you may or may not
be all that sensitive to, but it is important to keep in mind that
there are obvious differences in what Haitink himself is doing.
--Jeff
Paul Ilechko
> ...and come to think of it the
> Philips 9 isn't bad, either, nor his DLVDE.
>
Matter of opinion. Alright, it's not *bad*, but that's damning with
faint praise, which is about all you can do to either one of them. The
ninth in particular is just dull.
jrs...@aol.com
Yikes. I didn't find those recordings dull at all. Nor the 3. I have
to admit I didn't like the 5 much first time I encountered it. Can't
remember what I thought of the others on first encounter, but in any
case like many people I started to prefer his concert recordings.
--Jeff
MW
> I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion about the performance,
> but I think you should set it aside and try it again when you're in an
> unhurried, focused mood. Not that I find this new performance
Fair enough. For a point of reference, what would you pick as your
preferred Mahler 3's?
Michael Schaffer
>
> : I see. I didn't see that when I first replied to you. Good news:
> : Haitink isn't all "barlines" either. He is a fairly linear conductor.
> : You may see that if you just relax and listen again. Don't be
> : disappointed and throw a recording into the corner immediately when it
> : doesn't meet your expectations. Maybe you should listen to it later.
> : Or you can send me the discs if you really don't want them.
>
> If you think that Haitink is a great (or even particularly good) Mahler
> conductor,
I don't. Neither do I think that he is a "dull" Mahler conductor. I
don't think in these categories. But Haitink certainly has some things
to "say" about this music, and therefore, I usually find him worth
listening to, among other conductors.
> then perhaps you should think twice the next time you decide
> that you want to post one of your pontifications about how you understand
> Mahler so much better than anyone not steeped in the proper tradition.
Thanks for this contribution. That was very informative and helpful.
> -----
> Richard Schultz schu...@mail.biu.ac.il
Michael Schaffer
Or maybe it's just how receptive you were on these nights. Or what
your personal view of the music and expectations were at that time. Or
maybe you just had "enough" of that particular piece. Sometimes, we
aren't receptive for a particular piece andymore and only notice it
when we hear it and find it bores us. It is easy to "blame" that on
the performers in front of us then.
Michael Schaffer
> On May 7, 2:02 am, Michael Schaffer <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (snip)
>
> > Which is pretty essential
>
> There are no degrees of essence.
And "pretty..." isn't a "degree" of anything either, smartass.
Michael Schaffer
> face.
See?
> Watch your e-mail a few days form now and you can compare the
> two.
So how much do you want for the Haitink/Berlin DVDs? You can also
email me that if you want.
> I may have been very wrong to put this on Haitink's shoulders.
> It may in fact be a Haitink + BPO or CSO vs. Haitink vs. RCO or VPO.
There may be some truth in that. Hard to say though. But I heard many
concerts with Haitink in Berlin, and most of them were fairly "safe"
and "rounded off", maybe a little "distanced", very "distinguished"
but rarely very "expressive" and "exciting". OTOH, the live Mahler 3 I
have with him and the BP from around 2001 is very "lyrical" and
"expressive", and rather "live", too. And the earlier video of the
same work with the BP is live, too, I think, while the Philips
recording was made in the studio. I think. And they are very similar.
jrs...@aol.com
The points of reference aren't really relevant. I'm all over the map.
I'm not even sure what I would choose as a preference: Adler,
Scherchen, Mitropoulos, Nagano, Gielen, Bernstein II, Barbirolli, Van
Beinum, Levine, Haitink (Christmas concerts), MTT, Schuricht, Maderna,
Bychkov, Jordan, Zander, Maazel, Boulez, Bertini, Sinopoli...there've
been a number of really fine recordings that have struck a chord with
me. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of great ones. Plus some recent
broadcasts...Conlon, Markl, Wigglesworth, and Welser-Moest among them.
--Jeff
Steve de Mena
I thought the BPO and VPO were cheaper to record
these days than the top American orchestras.
Steve
Richard Schultz
:> then perhaps you should think twice the next time you decide
:> that you want to post one of your pontifications about how you understand
:> Mahler so much better than anyone not steeped in the proper tradition.
: Thanks for this contribution. That was very informative and helpful.
I admit that it was not as informative or as helpful as your comment
(in article <1177882838.7...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>)
Man, who fucked you in the ass? Was it your uncle or
your father, or one of the many "uncles" your mother
kept bringing home?
But I'll keep trying, although I understand that it will be difficult for
someone born and raised in the United States to reach the exalted cultural
level of a typical Berliner such as yourself.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
It's a bird, it's a plane -- no, it's Mozart. . .
Eric Nagamine
If you have a good internet connection and don't have problems playing
back via Adobe Flash the link here is for the page with the complete
performance.
http://www.cso.org/main.taf?p=15,1,7
It also airs on KUAT-FM at 0300-0500 UTC on May 9 (May 8 in the
Americas). (128 kbps)
http://kuatfm.org/streaming/KUATHQ.asx
http://kuatfm.org/streaming/KUATHQ.ram
http://kuatfm.org/streaming/KUATHQ.m3u
--
-----------
Aloha and Mahalo,
Eric Nagamine
http://home.hawaii.rr.com/mahlerb/broadcaststartpage.html
MW
> The points of reference aren't really relevant. I'm all over the map.
> I'm not even sure what I would choose as a preference: Adler,
> Scherchen, Mitropoulos, Nagano, Gielen, Bernstein II, Barbirolli, Van
> Beinum, Levine, Haitink (Christmas concerts), MTT, Schuricht, Maderna,
> Bychkov, Jordan, Zander, Maazel, Boulez, Bertini, Sinopoli...there've
> been a number of really fine recordings that have struck a chord with
> me. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of great ones. Plus some recent
> broadcasts...Conlon, Markl, Wigglesworth, and Welser-Moest among them.
> --Jeff
I know it isn't relevant, buti thought I might go to one of these
first- something I rember liking, something you like, too, then return
to the CSO performance and see how it plays.
Bob Harper
> On May 7, 3:18 pm, bob.har...@comcast.net wrote:
>> On May 7, 2:02 am, Michael Schaffer <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> (snip)
>>
>>> Which is pretty essential
>> There are no degrees of essence.
>
> And "pretty..." isn't a "degree" of anything either, smartass.
Of course it is. Sorry you don't understand that.
Bob Harper
phlmae...@yahoo.com
>
Which is, of course, why I added the little part about others likely
disagreeing. And actually, I just haven't reacted well to any of the
several Boulez Mahler performances I've heard. So the problem was
likely him (or more accurately, my negative disposition towards his
conducting style for Mahler). But I'm aware that loads of people love
Boulez as a Mahler conductor. Subjective stuff, you know.
Barry
MW
But where does subjectivity come into play in the comments here?
Perhaps some here have a wider latitude for differing approaches and I
don't. Does that make me wrong?
I really can go that way with some orchestral pieces, but for me,
Mahler 3 seems to either gain flight or not take off at all, no matter
how pretty a bird it is. Am I obligated to consider my negative
reaction to a performance unworthy of being shared because I'm not
paying due to the successful _parts_ of a performance?
Of all the messages so far, it appears that most people would consider
Haitink's BPO recording of Mahler 3 not so bad as to be worth a
negative comment. For me it was a dud- a crashing bore. And I can
only feel that someone who wants Mahler "totally free of hysteria" is
looking for a performance that has been Cedar-ized and NoNoised and
brought as close to Bruckner as possible. I can respect that it is to
some people's tastes, but it isn't to mine, for sure.
May I endeavor in the future to muffle my disappointment until the
immediacy fades away enough to presented in a more civil fashion.
Off to get a life...
phlmae...@yahoo.com
misunderstood me. I agree with you completely. I know that when I say
I found Boulez's live VPO Mahler 3 very unsatisfying from an emotional
or interpretive standpoint (the playing was great), I'm making a
statement that many, if not most people who heard the performance
would probably disagree with. Boulez's Mahler seems to be wildly
popular on this board. But I still haven't liked what I've heard of it
and say so every once in a while when the subject comes up. We all
like what we like. By all means, express your opinions. Just don't
expect people to agree with them. But that doesn't make them any less
valid. Having said all that, I don't think I've heard any of Haitink's
Mahler 3rd. It's a piece that I can only listen to at home
ocassionally, so I rarely look to pick up another recording of it. But
I've heard it three times live and of those, Boulez's performance was
the only one I found unsatisfying. The other two, Levine and
Eschenbach, both with Philly, were both tremendous concert experiences
for me; very memorable performances.
jrs...@aol.com
Well, for common ground we could discuss Neumann's CPO recording on
Pony Canyon, right?
--Jeff
td
It largely depends upon who's paying.
For an American company to pay their fees in dollars, the Euro cost
would simply be prohibitive. (That said, what American companies are
even left to hire them! Telarc? They backed away from the Strauss
contract leaving the remainder to DG)
For a European company the price is still very high, particularly as
you will try to make some of your money back in the USA, where the
dollar is low, hence you have to sell more, but probably won't, so, in
the end, no.
I would wonder how EMI will be able to continue to finance the Rattle
recordings with the BPO.
That will be interesting. Already many of them are live, n'est-ce pas?
Hence cheaper.
TD
td
>
> > Subjective stuff, you know.
> > Barry
>
> But where does subjectivity come into play in the comments here?
> Perhaps some here have a wider latitude for differing approaches and I
> don't. Does that make me wrong?
>
> I really can go that way with some orchestral pieces, but for me,
> Mahler 3 seems to either gain flight or not take off at all, no matter
> how pretty a bird it is. Am I obligated to consider my negative
> reaction to a performance unworthy of being shared because I'm not
> paying due to the successful _parts_ of a performance?
>
> Of all the messages so far, it appears that most people would consider
> Haitink's BPO recording of Mahler 3 not so bad as to be worth a
> negative comment. For me it was a dud- a crashing bore.
What an instructive comment. So much detail! So much illumination. So,
well, dumb.
> And I can only feel that someone who wants Mahler "totally free of hysteria" is looking for a performance that has been Cedar-ized and NoNoised and brought as close to Bruckner as possible.
I am the one who likes Mahler "free of hysteria", as hysteria is not
art, just jibberish.
That said a live performance of Mahler 3 with Bernstein in Paris in
the late 1960s skirted "hysteria" without really reaching that lawless
state.
>I can respect that it is to some people's tastes, but it isn't to mine, for sure.
Perhaps these thoughts should have preceeded your dissing of Haitink's
Mahler. Then, at least, we would have know what to make of - and do
with - your comments.
> May I endeavor in the future to muffle my disappointment until the
> immediacy fades away enough to presented in a more civil fashion.
Good idea.
> Off to get a life...
Indeed. Start simple. Some Mozart, perhaps?
TD
Gabriel Parra
> On May 7, 7:58 am, MW <tinti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Do you have anything credible to offer here?
>
> First of all, I have a name.
>
> You don't.
>
> > Do you actually like anything about Haitink's Mahler?
>
> Everything.
>
> Particularly it's total lack of hysteria.
In which case Haitink is missing the point when it comes to Mahler.
Mahler without hysterics is like Bush without demagoguery. I've heard
Haitink doing Brahms, Bruckner and Beethoven live, and he was a
terrible disappointment each time. Had to run home and wash my ears
out with Furtwangler each time.
Richard Schultz
: But where does subjectivity come into play in the comments here?
But subjectivity is objective. . .
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
J.Martin
> > ...and come to think of it the
> > Philips 9 isn't bad, either, nor his DLVDE.
>
> Matter of opinion. Alright, it's not *bad*, but that's damning with
> faint praise, which is about all you can do to either one of them.
Maybe I have been faint. I'll try to be bolder: Judging by
recordings and broadcasts (since I've never heard H live), I would
rank Haitink as perhaps not a "first tier" Mahlerian but as perhaps a
second-tier Mahlerian of the first rank.
Hmmm. Still pretty faint.
OK, how about this: I would rate the Kirstmatinee 4 and the Mahler
Feest 6 with the BPO as among the best recordings of those works. The
4th in particular surprised me. I recently listened to the old Szell,
which I used to love, and it struck me as rather cold and charmless on
this particular listening, which launched me on a journey through my
collection of M4s, and I was surprised to find the Haitink emerging as
one of the best. A matter of opinion to be sure but I would still
highly recommend hearing that 4 for those who haven't.
J.
Sacqueboutier
In any case, if one wants the more reserved Mahler, one can
turn to any of several conductors who do it better than Haitink.
Kubelik is the first who comes to mind.
--
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
Sacqueboutier
> On May 8, 11:26 am, MW <tinti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On May 8, 9:31 am, phlmaestr...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>> Subjective stuff, you know.
>>> Barry
>>
>> But where does subjectivity come into play in the comments here?
>> Perhaps some here have a wider latitude for differing approaches and I
>> don't. Does that make me wrong?
>>
>> I really can go that way with some orchestral pieces, but for me,
>> Mahler 3 seems to either gain flight or not take off at all, no matter
>> how pretty a bird it is. Am I obligated to consider my negative
>> reaction to a performance unworthy of being shared because I'm not
>> paying due to the successful _parts_ of a performance?
>>
>> Of all the messages so far, it appears that most people would consider
>> Haitink's BPO recording of Mahler 3 not so bad as to be worth a
>> negative comment. For me it was a dud- a crashing bore.
>
> What an instructive comment. So much detail! So much illumination. So,
> well, dumb.
Hmm...a very apt description of your own posts, Tommy Boy.
>
>> And I can only feel that someone who wants Mahler "totally free of
>> hysteria" is looking for a performance that has been Cedar-ized and
>> NoNoised and brought as close to Bruckner as possible.
>
> I am the one who likes Mahler "free of hysteria", as hysteria is not
> art, just jibberish.
Rather ironic coming from one who spouts nothing but "jibberish".
(Please note the incorrect spelling.)
>
> That said a live performance of Mahler 3 with Bernstein in Paris in
> the late 1960s skirted "hysteria" without really reaching that lawless
> state.
You certainly know about skirting issues. Was is really Bernstein
or was it Joyce Hatto?
>
>> I can respect that it is to some people's tastes, but it isn't to mine,
>> for sure.
>
> Perhaps these thoughts should have preceeded your dissing of Haitink's
> Mahler. Then, at least, we would have know what to make of - and do
> with - your comments.
Oh brother.
>
>> May I endeavor in the future to muffle my disappointment until the
>> immediacy fades away enough to presented in a more civil fashion.
>
> Good idea.
What do you know of civility, Tommy? Nothing I would guess.
>
>> Off to get a life...
>
> Indeed. Start simple. Some Mozart, perhaps?
Mozart simple? You really do need to get out more, Tommy?
If you find Mozart simple, you have much to learn.
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:2007050813474150073-
nospam@nocomspamcastnet:
Wasn't it Artur Schnabel who said Mozart's piano sonatas were "too easy for
children and too difficult for adults"?
Then again, Goddard Lieberson, a legendary record producer whose hem TD is
not fit to wipe, composed "Piano Pieces for Advanced Children or Retarded
Adults." These were recorded for Columbia Masterworks by a pianist greater
than Egon Petri, Guiomar Novaes, and Mieczyslaw Horszowski: André Previn.
(And no, "hem" was not my first choice of words there.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Harrington/Coy is a gay wrestler who won't come out of the closet
EmmKay
> Wasn't it Artur Schnabel who said Mozart's piano sonatas were "too easy for
> children and too difficult for adults"?
I thought it was Rubinstein and I thought it was "too easy for
amateurs, too hard for professionals"?
At any rate, more on topic, I haven't heard the CD yet, but the
Saturday night performance which I attended in October was
magnificent. It certainly doesn't match the original poster's
description. Quite to the contrary, it was a very determined,
purposeful reading with the final Langsam-Ruhevoll a true apotheosis
instead of an afterthought. Of the live Mahler 3 performances I have
heard in recent years (Spano/Brooklyn, Boulez/VPO, Conlon/Juilliard)
by far the most convincing interpretation and performance. I just
received the CD, so I will hear later tonight whether the recording
(an amalgamation of three performances, it seems) matches my memory.
jrs...@aol.com
> On 2007-05-08 12:57:22 -0400, Gabriel Parra <gparrabless...@gmail.com> said:
>
>
>
> > On May 7, 11:10 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> >> On May 7, 7:58 am, MW <tinti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> Do you have anything credible to offer here?
>
> >> First of all, I have a name.
>
> >> You don't.
>
> >>> Do you actually like anything about Haitink's Mahler?
>
> >> Everything.
>
> >> Particularly it's total lack of hysteria.
>
> > In which case Haitink is missing the point when it comes to Mahler.
> > Mahler without hysterics is like Bush without demagoguery. I've heard
> > Haitink doing Brahms, Bruckner and Beethoven live, and he was a
> > terrible disappointment each time. Had to run home and wash my ears
> > out with Furtwangler each time.
>
> In any case, if one wants the more reserved Mahler, one can
> turn to any of several conductors who do it better than Haitink.
> Kubelik is the first who comes to mind.
That "reserved" category is rather broad, don't you think? Hysterical
Kubelik is not, but I don't think of him as "reserved" either.
In any case, Haitink's 3rd (in the umpteen incarnations we now can
compare) seems less reserved and more intense the more I hear it.
--Jeff
EmmKay
> In which case Haitink is missing the point when it comes to Mahler.
> Mahler without hysterics is like Bush without demagoguery.
Query then why on the recordings of all of the conductors who worked
with Mahler and witnessed his own conducting (Mengelberg, Walter,
Klemperer), none of them resort to hysterics?
jrs...@aol.com
> If you have a good internet connection and don't have problems playing
> back via Adobe Flash the link here is for the page with the complete
> performance.
>
> http://www.cso.org/main.taf?p=15,1,7
That's true, but I think Michael only noted the fact that the audio
file was not available at the time MW said it was....the file was not
available until the next day.
Though the KUAT streaming broadcast will have pretty good sound, I
think the broadcasts sound better when heard streaming from the CSO
site.
--Jeff
MW
> Query then why on the recordings of all of the conductors who worked
> with Mahler and witnessed his own conducting (Mengelberg, Walter,
> Klemperer), none of them resort to hysterics?
It isn't much of a body of evidence to draw conclusions from. Walter
and Klemperer were fairly consistent as interpreters no matter what
the music. And Mengelberg's is of Sym. 4.
td
I've heard
> Haitink doing Brahms, Bruckner and Beethoven live, and he was a
> terrible disappointment each time. Had to run home and wash my ears out with Furtwangler each time.
!!!!
Old Frankfurter couldn't even beat time.
TD
td
> Sacqueboutier <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> appears to have caused the
> following letters to be typed in news:2007050813474150073-
> nospam@nocomspamcastnet:
>
>
> >> Indeed. Start simple. Some Mozart, perhaps?
>
> > Mozart simple? You really do need to get out more, Tommy?
> > If you find Mozart simple, you have much to learn.
>
> Wasn't it Artur Schnabel who said Mozart's piano sonatas were "too easy for
> children and too difficult for adults"?
>
> Then again, Goddard Lieberson, a legendary record producer whose hem TD is
> not fit to wipe, composed "Piano Pieces for Advanced Children or Retarded
> Adults." These were recorded for Columbia Masterworks by a pianist greater
> than Egon Petri, Guiomar Novaes, and Mieczyslaw Horszowski: André Previn.
Hard to tell whether Tepper admires Mr. Liberson - I do, enormously -
or whether he is simply using him to make some kind of point. That
point being he doesn't much care for Mr. Previn and his pianism. But
if Mr. Lieberson was so great, perhaps Andre knew a thing or two by
choosing to perform his music.
In any event, Tepper "ducks" out of this one without a single
substantial idea.
Wonderful!
TD
EmmKay
> It isn't much of a body of evidence to draw conclusions from. Walter
> and Klemperer were fairly consistent as interpreters no matter what
> the music. And Mengelberg's is of Sym. 4.
That's quite a significant body of evidence, actually. There are
recordings of more than half the symphonies and song cycles with Klemp
and Walter. If Mahler were all about "hysterics" as you claim, surely
at least one of these disciples would have shown some of that. Even
the otherwise volatile Mengelberg is very lyrical and behaved in his
Mahler. Other contemporaries likewise, e.g. Schuricht. Really,
Mahler's music is considerably greater without the superimposed
hysteria.
J.Martin
> Well, for common ground we could discuss Neumann's CPO recording on
> Pony Canyon, right?
>
> --Jeff
Heh. Isn't that the one where half of the horns play in the wrong key
during i? I'm guessing that didn't happen in chicago.
J.
Dontait...@aol.com
Plus, for Mengelberg, the Songs of a Wayfarer (with Hermann Schey)
and the Adagietto from Symphony no. 5. And there is Oskar Fried in his
recording of Symphony no. 2.
Don Tait
jrs...@aol.com
I don't think it happened in either. Perhaps the vibrato was so wide
you thought they were polytonal horns :-).
The Neumann reference was a mild joke for MW's benefit. But to be
honest it is an interesting point of comparison because some people
(MW included if I recall correctly) would consider that late Neumann
recording particularly straight, cautious, and uninflected, if
beautifully played. The opposite of "superimposed hysteria", whatever
that may be.
--Jeff
Sacqueboutier
I was being a bit general. In comparison to the neurotic
Mahler of Bernstein, yes, Kubelik is a bit reserved. I
certainly don't mean that in a bad way.
Sacqueboutier
Not horns, trumpets. I think it was the result of a mistransposition.
Perhaps the part was written for trumpet in F and they played
as though it were written in C or Bb. Not sure. Haven't heard
it in years, but that passage does stick in my mind. Moves along
as parallel 4ths.
TareeDawg
Your defense of Haitink's boring Mahler, as subjectively judged by MW,
and expressed here, and your dissing of his comments, as above, are
nothing short of absolutely disgraceful, and utterly infantile.
Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
MW
Who here has claimed that Mahler is "all about 'hysterics'". That's
Deacon's word. Nobody here has even named a specific example of
"hysterical" performance, though Haitink has been put forward as the
"total lack of hysteria", whatever that means. It isn't much by way
of a defense of Haitink, and it isn't much of a comprehensible idea.
So let's knock off the phony debate. If you want to believe that
because Walter, Klemperer and Mengelberg didn't conduct Mahler a
certain way- much as their styles difffered- and tha tproves that
Mahler wanted it that way, go ahead. I don't care. I'm more
interested in what I hear than historical theories of proper
performance. I hardly believe such a position is any betrayal of
Mahler.
MW
> Your defense of Haitink's boring Mahler, as subjectively judged by MW,
> and expressed here, and your dissing of his comments, as above, are
> nothing short of absolutely disgraceful, and utterly infantile.
> Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
On the plus side, Deacon is so ineffectual and easy to laugh at that
it is hardly worh pointing out what a toad he is.
jrs...@aol.com
Then he's reserved, without reservations. :-)
--Jeff
MW
> Well, for common ground we could discuss Neumann's CPO recording on
> Pony Canyon, right?
> --Jeff
That's some shard of superb memory you have, since I once owned that.
And it was a very interesting CD, with that fine PC sound and Neumann
and the orchestra sounding a bit like lower-voltage Klemperer.
I have eight of the one's you named. In an effort to do some blind
listeining, I heard both Barbirolli and Mehta's(LA) first movement. I
don't think you named either of those; I found them both good, if not
my precise ideal. Mahta was more aggressive than I recalled, and
Barbirolli managed to make the music sound honest despite the limits
of his orchestra, which I sometimes have trouble tolerating.
More listeinng tomorrow. And I plan to do a good deal of listeining
before doing any more judging.
jrs...@aol.com
> On 2007-05-08 17:07:56 -0400, "J.Martin" <mistalu...@yahoo.com> said:
>
>
>
> >> Well, for common ground we could discuss Neumann's CPO recording on
> >> Pony Canyon, right?
>
> >> --Jeff
>
> > Heh. Isn't that the one where half of the horns play in the wrong key
> > during i? I'm guessing that didn't happen in chicago.
> > J.
>
> Not horns, trumpets. I think it was the result of a mistransposition.
> Perhaps the part was written for trumpet in F and they played
> as though it were written in C or Bb. Not sure. Haven't heard
> it in years, but that passage does stick in my mind. Moves along
> as parallel 4ths.
Was that the Supraphon recording or the Pony Canyon recording?
--Jeff
MW
> The Neumann reference was a mild joke for MW's benefit. But to be
> honest it is an interesting point of comparison because some people
> (MW included if I recall correctly) would consider that late Neumann
> recording particularly straight, cautious, and uninflected, if
> beautifully played. The opposite of "superimposed hysteria", whatever
> that may be.
> --Jeff
I recall it being well-played enough to erase any sensation of
caution. It seemed true to Naumann's notion of the music, and I found
it enjoyable, just not something I would want to listen to frequently.
Haitink's conception is certainly more grand. I just have trouble
with the way the flow of the music just drops off a lot of the time-
mind you, I am going to re-listen, so let's not nail me to that just
yet.
Bob Lombard
"MW" <tint...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1178678500.1...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Don't know whether the debate is "phony" or not, but you are certainly
correct that your round-about statement that you like what you like is
irrelevant to it. I also like what I like - Abravanel, Lombard, Boulez - no
particular connection to what Mahler may have wanted.
bl
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:1178678631.3...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
You've just insulted every toad in the world.
td
That's because your brain is dead.
TD
Sacqueboutier
> MW <tint...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in
> news:1178678631.3...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On May 8, 7:40 pm, TareeDawg <rayto...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>> Your defense of Haitink's boring Mahler, as subjectively judged by MW,
>>> and expressed here, and your dissing of his comments, as above, are
>>> nothing short of absolutely disgraceful, and utterly infantile.
>>> Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
>>
>> On the plus side, Deacon is so ineffectual and easy to laugh at that
>> it is hardly worh pointing out what a toad he is.
>
> You've just insulted every toad in the world.
He's also insulted ineffectual people around the world.
Sacqueboutier
Supraphon. I have it, just haven't listened in some time.
Bought it at Roger Dettmer's recommendation in Fanfare.
I think the CPO is great to hear in this work, but Neumann
simply strolls through the first movement without showing much
interest in the proceedings. At least he doesn't "bulldoze" his
way through ala Solti/CSO...another one played so damned
well, but in the end, frustrating due to the conductor.
EmmKay
Actually, it was Gabriel Parra who furthered that nonsensical line of
argumentation and to whom I responded. But had you made your point as
eloquently earlier as you do now (instead of the non sequitur on the
supposed insufficiency of the evidence I presented) we could have
ended the discussion right there.
Back on topic, I just listened to the Haitnik/CSO CD last night. I
again have to respectfully disagree with the original poster. The CD
reconfirms my impressions of the concert. It is indeed a very broad
conception of the work - espcially the first movement - but it is very
determined and coherent. I don't feel that the tension ever sags.
Haitink does indeed underplay some of the climaxes in the earlier
movements a bit, but he does so with a view towards the function of
these climaxes within the whole. So many conductors overdo the first
few movements such that the last movement ends up like an
afterthought, detached from the rest of the symphony. Not with
Haitink. This coherence and conceptual unity is what I admired most
about the perfomance. What also struck me on hearing the CD is how
brilliantly well done the 3rd movement is. It manages to maintain an
honest naiveté and innocence while still retaining a hint of parody
and irony. It's rare to hear these contradictions coexist so well
within a single interpretation. The CSO sounds glorious throughout,
winds and brass in particular, but strings as well, including Chen's
solos. The brass have so much more color now than they did under
Solti! What marvellous playing from Jay Friedman and Chris Martin. My
one small criticism is that the recorded sound does not quite have the
warmth of the live performance.
MW
by the CSO CD. The radio broadcast featured obvious compression at
the loud points, leaving me wondering how much impact there really
was. Haitink's phrasing tended to bring things down a notch, and when
you combine that with the dynamic clipping, well, maybe that's an
unfair combination.
"My one small criticism is that the recorded sound does not quite have
the warmth of the live performance."
Of being there in person, right? Where do you sit, by the way?
EmmKay
> Of being there in person, right? Where do you sit, by the way?
Yes. For that particular performance I sat on the far left side of the
lower balcony, second row.
td
> On 2007-05-09 00:48:13 -0400, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oyþ@earthlink.net> said:
>
> > MW <tinti...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> > to be typed in
> >news:1178678631.3...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> On May 8, 7:40 pm, TareeDawg <rayto...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >>> Your defense of Haitink's boring Mahler, as subjectively judged by MW,
> >>> and expressed here, and your dissing of his comments, as above, are
> >>> nothing short of absolutely disgraceful, and utterly infantile.
> >>> Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
>
> >> On the plus side, Deacon is so ineffectual and easy to laugh at that
> >> it is hardly worh pointing out what a toad he is.
>
> > You've just insulted every toad in the world.
>
> He's also insulted ineffectual people around the world.
Sorry you feel so targetted, Donny.
Poor Patterson!
Leading the pack of ineffectual nerds.
And blowing his horn all the while.
Nero did it on the fiddle.
Donny does it on his horn.
TD
Sacqueboutier
I would probably be very interested in this. My main criticism of Haitink's
ACO recording is the ACO (though I usually find that ensemble practically
perfect in every way). My main criticism of Solti's CSO Mahler 3rd is
his seeming disinterest in the work...hurrying through the first movement
as though he had a pressing dinner engagement. The CSO, on the other
hand, plays magnificently...despite the overly bright recorded sound from
Decca.
I've always admired Levine's interpretation of the work, but the RCA
sound leaves much to be desired. I'm not quite as taken by the
famed Martinon/CSO recording as most others.
Haitink/CSO may just fit the bill for me.
Sacqueboutier
> On May 9, 9:33 am, Sacqueboutier <nos...@nocomspamcast.net> wrote:
>> On 2007-05-09 00:48:13 -0400, "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> s
> aid:
>>
>>> MW <tinti...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
>>> to be typed in
>>> news:1178678631.3...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>>> On May 8, 7:40 pm, TareeDawg <rayto...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>>>>> Your defense of Haitink's boring Mahler, as subjectively judged by MW,
>>>>> and expressed here, and your dissing of his comments, as above, are
>>>>> nothing short of absolutely disgraceful, and utterly infantile.
>>>>> Ray (Dawg) Hall, Taree
>>
>>>> On the plus side, Deacon is so ineffectual and easy to laugh at that
>>>> it is hardly worh pointing out what a toad he is.
>>
>>> You've just insulted every toad in the world.
>>
>> He's also insulted ineffectual people around the world.
>
> Sorry you feel so targetted, Donny.
>
> Poor Patterson!
>
> Leading the pack of ineffectual nerds.
>
> And blowing his horn all the while.
>
> Nero did it on the fiddle.
>
> Donny does it on his horn.
>
> TD
...and Tommy does it on his...
well...we won't go there.
Michael Lee
5 movements:
http://rapidshare.com/files/13486570/Mahler_Feest_CD_3.zip
Is the finale (Mahler_Feest_CD_4.zip?) available too?
Michael Lee
________________________________________
Guide to Classical Music in Hong Kong
http://home.netvigator.com/~leeji/guide/
"Michael Schaffer" wrote...
> > I'll be hunting for that VPO performance...
>
> You don't have to hunt. You can just download it here:
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/3268124/Mahler_3__part_1.zip
> http://rapidshare.com/files/3269682/Mahler_3__part_2.zip
> http://rapidshare.com/files/3271191/Mahler_3__part_3.zip
>
> or here:
>
> http://rapidshare.com/files/13486570/Mahler_Feest_CD_3.zip
>
>
> Jard van Nes, contralto
> Boy's Choir from St.Bavo Cathedral, Haarlem
> Wiener Philharmoniker
> Bernard Haitink
> May 7, 1995
>
Matthew Silverstein
> I've always admired Levine's interpretation of the work, but the RCA
> sound leaves much to be desired. I'm not quite as taken by the famed
> Martinon/CSO recording as most others.
What don't you like about the Martinon recording? (I think it's terrific.)
Matty
Sacqueboutier
In short, I find it a bit overdriven.
td
> ...and Tommy does it on his...
>
> well...we won't go there.
Better not.
You might expose your homophobia.
Perish the thought.
Woult you believe? Donny blows horns but not c..cks!
Or so he implies.
TD
td
> In short, I find it a bit overdriven.
Some find you overdriven, but there's precious little anyone can do
about it.
TD
Paul Goodman
>Back on topic, I just listened to the Haitnik/CSO CD last night. I
>again have to respectfully disagree with the original poster. The CD
>reconfirms my impressions of the concert. It is indeed a very broad
>conception of the work - espcially the first movement - but it is very
>determined and coherent. I don't feel that the tension ever sags.
[SNIP]
I just listened to it too. I was at the Saturday night concert and
came away feeling, at that time, like it was one of the best
performances of that work that I have ever heard. I was worried,
based on the comments here, that the recording would change my
perception of that evening. Thankfully, that didn't happen. It will
be a recording that I will come back to time and time again.
--
Paul Goodman
prg...@qtm.net
good...@comcast.net
MW
Yeah, that's pretty good.
jrs...@aol.com
> On May 8, 10:54 am, jrsn...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Well, for common ground we could discuss Neumann's CPO recording on
> > Pony Canyon, right?
> > --Jeff
>
> That's some shard of superb memory you have, since I once owned that.
Your fingerprints are on my copy.
> And it was a very interesting CD, with that fine PC sound and Neumann
> and the orchestra sounding a bit like lower-voltage Klemperer.
>
> I have eight of the one's you named. In an effort to do some blind
> listeining, I heard both Barbirolli and Mehta's(LA) first movement. I
> don't think you named either of those; I found them both good, if not
> my precise ideal. Mahta was more aggressive than I recalled, and
> Barbirolli managed to make the music sound honest despite the limits
> of his orchestra, which I sometimes have trouble tolerating.
I agree about both. Mehta is aggressive in part because of the
engineering, however, and the excellent playing wears thin on my ears
after a while as I search for other reasons to love the performance.
It is not one of my favorites, but I wouldn't kick it off the
shelf...perhaps I should seek a warm and cozy LP copy. Anyway, Mehta
certainly isn't aggressive in his later recordings.
I have one of Barbirolli's performances: the orchestra is not having a
great day but I agree there's something appealing about the
performance (much as his "honesty" pervades his other live Mahler
performances that BBC, Testament, and others have released).
--Jeff
MW
> I agree about both. Mehta is aggressive in part because of the
> engineering, however, and the excellent playing wears thin on my ears
> after a while as I search for other reasons to love the performance.
I found the aggressiveness in the phrasing and attacks, especially in
the strings- he manages to keep a consistent sense of forward
momentum. After a while, though, it sounded predictable. About the
engineering aspect of it, the climaxes really explode in a certain
way, too, and they all sound similar. At least that's my admittedly
superficial impression of it. I much prefer this symphony in a
pleasant acoustic- there is so much color to the score, and the sound
decay adds so much to the silences and pauses.
As for Neumann, I knew I'd sold you something in the past, but I've
sold too much to remember well. Maybe Pony Canyon should come record
the CSO (although I've somethimes wondered if some of their Osaka Phil
recordings weren't juiced a bit in the fake ambiance department.
jrs...@aol.com
I've bought too much to remember if you've sold me anything
else...maybe some of Asahina's Bruckner? My most harrowing experience
with a pony in a canyon was the trail ride at Bryce National
Park...maybe they'll record the Utah Symphony there...the acoustics
have got to be something!
--Jeff
joey7c...@yahoo.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
For me the Solti/CSO is more frustrating due to the sound (thin,
scratchy, metalic) rather than the performance. I believe this was one
of those early London Digital recordings made soon after Decca
switched from recording the CSO in Medina Temple to Orchestra Hall. I
think the Medina sound was much better (warm, spacious, reverberent
but not mushy) although most of those Medina recordings were 1970's
analogue efforts which I prefer over the early digital sound)
Alan P Dawes
> You don't have to hunt. You can just download it here:
> http://rapidshare.com/files/3268124/Mahler_3__part_1.zip
> http://rapidshare.com/files/3269682/Mahler_3__part_2.zip
> http://rapidshare.com/files/3271191/Mahler_3__part_3.zip
> or here:
> http://rapidshare.com/files/13486570/Mahler_Feest_CD_3.zip
Thanks for these but is there a link to download the last movement?
Alan
--
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|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | alan....@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | alan....@riscos.org
| | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Michael Schaffer
> In article <1178528554.860348.219...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> Michael Schaffer <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'll be hunting for that VPO performance...
> > You don't have to hunt. You can just download it here:
> >http://rapidshare.com/files/3268124/Mahler_3__part_1.zip
> >http://rapidshare.com/files/3269682/Mahler_3__part_2.zip
> >http://rapidshare.com/files/3271191/Mahler_3__part_3.zip
> > or here:
> >http://rapidshare.com/files/13486570/Mahler_Feest_CD_3.zip
>
> Thanks for these but is there a link to download the last movement?
>
> Alan
>
> --
> --. --. --. --. : : --- --- ----------------------------
> | | |\ | | | | |\| | | alan.da...@riscos.org
> | | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | Using an Acorn RiscPC
Either the first three links together or the last on its own contain
the entire symphony.
Michael Lee
for the last one (OGG, only first five movements)...
Michael Lee
"Michael Schaffer" wrote...
Alan P Dawes
Michael Schaffer <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 5:39 am, Alan P Dawes <alan.da...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> > In article <1178528554.860348.219...@e65g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> > Michael Schaffer <ms1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > I'll be hunting for that VPO performance...
> > > You don't have to hunt. You can just download it here:
> > >http://rapidshare.com/files/3268124/Mahler_3__part_1.zip
> > >http://rapidshare.com/files/3269682/Mahler_3__part_2.zip
> > >http://rapidshare.com/files/3271191/Mahler_3__part_3.zip
> > > or here:
> > >http://rapidshare.com/files/13486570/Mahler_Feest_CD_3.zip
> >
> > Thanks for these but is there a link to download the last movement?
> Either the first three links together or the last on its own contain
> the entire symphony.
Thanks for that I've now downloaded
http://rapidshare.com/files/3271191/Mahler_3__part_3.zip which contains it
however the last link (Mahler_Feest_CD_3.zip) which I had originally
downloaded only contains movements 1-5.
On a first hearing I am impressed, are there any other live Haitink Mahler
recordings that I should seek out? I've had his original LP set with the
Cocertgebouw since the 1970s but found it rather bland compared to the
Bernstein NYPO 3rd which was the first recording I bought and the
Horenstein LSO that I heard live at the Festival hall in march '65 as a
teenager.
Best wishes
Alan
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|_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | alan....@argonet.co.uk
| | |\ | | | | |\| | | alan....@riscos.org
Gerard
>
> On a first hearing I am impressed, are there any other live Haitink
> Mahler recordings that I should seek out?
His kerstmatinees recordings of symph. 1-5, 7 and 9 and some Lieder.
Philips 464 321-2. Also availbale on DVD.