Andriessen's "Hague Hacking" Concerto for Two Pianos
Rugby
concerto, the piano writing just a thread,hardly enough for one piano.
A few nice moments at the end, but as with much Minimilism a lack
throughout of any interesting development of any substantive themes,
and a disdain for any emotional communication with its audience. Much
noise, of course, which one wonders the composer would have enjoyed
more listening to by himself at home on a synthesizer. But then he
could not have collected fees.
A unique work, to be sure, perhaps worth one listen since short.
Why great modern piano concerti like those of Rautavaara, Tveitt,
Flagello,Tippett,Lloyd,Oldham,Ogdon,Williamson,Bliss,Duke, go largely
unheard while Andriessen's hack-job scores a Proms gig is quite a
mystery to me. No doubt a deep message I missed.
If you must : www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00m5qhy#synopsis
Proms 43,Part 1.
Regards, Rugby ( a bit grumpy )
Bob Lombard
More than a bit grumpy. Just because it don't work for you don't mean
the younkers ain't going to find it the greatest thing since applesauce.
Well, coke boosted applesauce anyway.
bl
M forever
But what an incredibly, incredibly original title!
Spam Stopper
HvT
> More than a bit grumpy. Just because it don't work for you don't mean
> the younkers ain't going to find it the greatest thing since
> applesauce.
> Well, coke boosted applesauce anyway.
>
> bl
Hmmm. Andriessen's music illustrates clearly what Dutch music is all
about: the imitation of musical forms that are long obsolent and a
complete lack of musical content - not to forget the marginalization of
composers who don't fit in this description.
Henk
HvT
> Bob Lombard wrote:
>
>> More than a bit grumpy. Just because it don't work for you don't mean
>> the younkers ain't going to find it the greatest thing since
>> applesauce.
>> Well, coke boosted applesauce anyway.
>>
>> bl
>
> Hmmm. Andriessen's music illustrates clearly what Dutch music is all
> about: the imitation of musical forms that are long obsolent and a
OBSOLETE
Gerard
> The LeBeques again, with Salonen, although the piece a tone poem not
> concerto, the piano writing just a thread,hardly enough for one piano.
>
> A few nice moments at the end, but as with much Minimilism a lack
> throughout of any interesting development of any substantive themes,
> and a disdain for any emotional communication with its audience. Much
> noise, of course, which one wonders the composer would have enjoyed
> more listening to by himself at home on a synthesizer. But then he
> could not have collected fees.
>
> A unique work, to be sure, perhaps worth one listen since short.
>
> Why great modern piano concerti like those of Rautavaara, Tveitt,
> Flagello,Tippett,Lloyd,Oldham,Ogdon,Williamson,Bliss,Duke, go largely
> unheard while Andriessen's hack-job scores a Proms gig is quite a
> mystery to me. No doubt a deep message I missed.
>
I don't see a reason to complain that it has been performed.
This piece of Andriessen is even more "largely unheard".
Christopher Webber
>The LeBeques again, with Salonen, although the piece a tone poem not
>concerto, the piano writing just a thread,hardly enough for one piano.
Well I agree it was a concertante work, certainly, rather than an
old-style "war-horse" concerto - that idea clearly does not interest
Andriessen much, old though he himself is. Perhaps more a Dutch idea of
"first amongst equals". I don't think people do "tone poems" any more.
>A few nice moments at the end, but as with much Minimilism a lack
>throughout of any interesting development of any substantive themes,
>and a disdain for any emotional communication with its audience.
Such blanket dismissals completely miss the point of "minimalist"
techniques. Andriessen, if you were to be fair, is not interested in
development of themes, so much as varying of complex textures and
volumes. He learned that from Ligeti. You'd best go to his father
Hendrik if you want that sort of thing, because young Louis left it
behind about forty years ago. It's strange to lambaste a composer for
not doing what he hasn't chosen to do for nearly half a century! More
interesting for the reader to comment on what he *is* doing, perhaps.
>A unique work, to be sure, perhaps worth one listen since short.
Sounds as if you enjoyed it in spite of yourself. Personally, I love
Andriessen's energised mixture of brutal hocketing and ethereal
stillness. It seems to me visceral, sensitive and reflective of our time
in its tensions. And it does repay further listening.
>
>Why great modern piano concerti like those of Rautavaara, Tveitt,
>Flagello,Tippett,Lloyd,Oldham,Ogdon,Williamson,Bliss,Duke, go largely
>unheard while Andriessen's hack-job scores a Proms gig is quite a
>mystery to me. No doubt a deep message I missed.
"Greatness" is of course not to be defined sensibly or objectively, but
having heard Ogdon play his concerto live in Manchester with the Halle,
a many years ago, I would raise at least three eyebrows. It was a folly,
an embarrassment which made us laugh sadly, despite its composer's
superb advocacy. And completely without originality of any kind. The
great pianist knew too much of the repertoire to be able to compose a
worthwhile addition to it.
The important thing is that none of the pieces from your list which I
know at least have anything remotely in common with the work we heard on
Monday at the Proms. No "deep message" is necessary, is it? Not everyone
has to write an old-style "warhorse" piece with pretensions. We have
widened our musical field, these days, and should maybe practice
adjusting our ears accordingly. Things move on.
Well done BBC for commissioning this enjoyable, engaging and direct
piece.
--
___________________________
Christopher Webber, Blackheath, London, UK.
http://www.zarzuela.net
Tassilo
wrote:
> We have
> widened our musical field, these days, and should maybe practice
> adjusting our ears accordingly.
Webber will say this in defending some simple minded junk. He won’t
say it about a composer like Brian Ferneyhough. (Note the coercive
use of the royal “we.”)
-david gable
CharlesSmith
Thanks for pointing me to this. I quite like the piece, but found it
rather cautious and detached by Andriessen standards. Perhaps that's
his reaction to the Labeque dedication, or mention of The Hague, or
Salonen's interpretation. Don't take this as anti-Andriessen. I once
went to a live performance of his Trilogy for the Last Day (Knussen
etc) which had a glorious surfeit of the 'emotional communication' you
missed in this lastest work.
Rugby
wrote:
>\
The fact Andriessen has chosen to compose in this "style" for 50 years
does not mean he chose wisely, or has added anything of value with
this work.I also regularly diss the Liszt E Flat and a couple
Scharwenka concerti. In fairness, I did suggest one listen might be
worthwhile given the unique nature of the work, which novelty did not
save it, IMHO. Please see the comments of Charles,David and Henk in
this thread.
Regards, Rugby
Christopher Webber
>Webber will say this in defending some simple minded junk. He won’t
>say it about a composer like Brian Ferneyhough. (Note the coercive use
>of the royal “we.”)
I'm sorry to have upset you, David. If "we" had been talking about
Ferneyhough, "we" might have had something to say on that matter! Alas,
I have several million people in line between me and the throne, and my
"we" was communal.
We - as in "the artistic community" - have moved on from 1970's
fashions. We have our own. It's up to us what we make of them.
More worryingly, some members of this community are very ready to damn
what is simple, by calling it simple-minded. To my mind, that is a cheap
shot to nothing. I would have thought it axiomatic that all composers -
even Ferneyhough and Sorabji - aim to put their stuff across as simply
and inevitably as possible. Otherwise, it's just showing off.
Andriessen is no different. Complexity usually comes not from
complicated note-spinning, but from deeper aesthetic ambiguities.
If you're saying that you find Andriessen "simple minded junk", which I
hope you aren't, I find that surprising coming from one so broad-minded
and operatically perceptive as yourself. As ever, not hearing what's
there would be your loss. I'd have thought anyone with such a sense for
good theatre music might well have enjoyed his Vermeer opera, not to
mention the masterly "De Materie". "Rosa" I think is rather scotched by
a banal Greenaway libretto. Would you agree?
Christopher Webber
>I also regularly diss the Liszt E Flat
Off topic I know, but on what grounds? The Liszt E flat concerto seems a
curious thing to "diss" ... unless you're once again terminally locked
into a Beethovenian idea of the necessity of thematic development within
sonata form movements.
Beyond that, I can understand that many Dutch may be sick to death of
Andriessen being hailed as the greatest thing they've produced since
sliced Gouda. That doesn't diminish his quality, though.
Otherwise, which other Andriessen works do you consider "unwise"? That
is a curiously Olympian choice of adjective!
Matthew�B.�Tepper
typed in news:4a8bafde$0$182$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl:
Ah, you mean like the music of academic composers in the US in the '70s.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Rugby
wrote:
I see, even though I dont like Andreissen's "concerto", or Minimilism
usually, or the Liszt E Flat, I cant say that ; but you are permitted
to praise.
Next thread, please.
Regards, Rugby
Gerard
>
> Next thread, please.
>
Aren't you starting 10 new ones a day any more?
Rugby
My,my, how easily you can drop excessive literalism and instantly
adopt exaggeration , when your needs require.
You don't need to respond to any threads (wish,wish !), but since you
do respond to many,mine included, no threads here seem to be diverting
your time from more productive uses.
Regards, Rugby
Gerard
> On Aug 19, 1:16 pm, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Rugby wrote:
> >
> > > Next thread, please.
> >
> > Aren't you starting 10 new ones a day any more?
>
> My,my, how easily you can drop excessive literalism and instantly
> adopt exaggeration ,
Exaggeration?
> when your needs require.
> You don't need to respond to any threads (wish,wish !), but since you
> do respond to many,mine included, no threads here seem to be diverting
> your time from more productive uses.
>
Pardon?
Productive?
Christopher Webber
>I see, even though I dont like Andreissen's "concerto", or Minimilism
>usually, or the Liszt E Flat, I cant say that ; but you are permitted
>to praise.
Sigh...
You are of course permitted to say anything you like, and hold to your
own opinions.
The frustrating part is, for those of us who might be interested in
constructive debate, that one line put downs - whether of Andriessen or
Liszt - are not illuminating or interesting (for this reader at least)
unless the writer takes a little trouble to share his or her reasons for
those opinions.
As a general rule, though, you are correct in your observation. I
confess that I don't see much point in negative posts. If I don't like
some piece, composer or performance I tend to keep quiet about it, and I
always regret wasting time on such argy-bargy when I'm drawn into it.
"Not Liking" is often synonymous with "Not Understanding", and so I
relish contributions which share enthusiasms rather than damning what
they dislike. I've learnt a lot from postings to this group, but nothing
from the negative ones.
Rugby
wrote:
The Telegraoh review:
Regards, Rugby
Christopher Webber
>www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/proms/6049191/BBC-Proms-2009-Prom-43-P
>hilharmonia-OrchestraSalonen.html
Geoffrey Norris (as is usual) explains his mixed opinion of the work
clearly and thoughtfully: no one line put-downs from him. He describes
the course of the piece accurately, describing the hocketing technique
more fully than I did.
I'd argue that he underplays the sonic impressiveness of the work,
though that could well be down to the Albert Hall effect: they don't put
us reviewers in the best place for judging balance or instrumentation,
and I was listening on R3 not there in person, which I suspect was an
advantage. You were probably listening on highly-compressed internet
feed, I guess, which might not have been ideal either.
But thank you for giving this fair-minded and articulate critic a bit of
well-merited publicity.
Rugby
wrote:
> But thank you for giving this fair-minded and articulate critic a bit of
> well-merited publicity.
> --
Norris: " It is a chunky piece lasting about 18 minutes, and it is
also beset by a certain aridity and laboured academicism until the
Messiaen-like jubilation near the end."
Rugby: " A few nice moments at the end, but as with much Minimilism a
lack throughout of any interesting development of any substantive
themes,
and a disdain for any emotional communication with its audience."
Regards, Rugby
Christopher Webber
I'm not quite sure how reprinting them adds to the sum of human
knowledge, though the contrast is rather telling! Unless you are working
from some puzzling notion that, because one newspaper reviewer and
yourself happen to be out of sympathy with Andriessen, then you are
"right" to condemn the work and its composer and I am "wrong" to admire
them?
I don't suppose your intention is that negative, though. And if you are
as I hope open to other opinions, you might care to read Andrew Clements
in "The Guardian" for a clear and unfussy description of how the piece
worked for him:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/aug/18/prom-43-philharmonia-salonen-
review
Nick Kimberley in the "Evening Standard" was positive about it too: most
of the London critics clearly aren't too snobby about Andriessen's
crossover credentials.
--
"THE ZARZUELA COMPANION" (Scarecrow Press)
Christopher Webber, Foreword by Placido Domingo
http://www.zarzuela.net
Rugby
wrote:
Clements' was really a non-review. Other than to note the "rhythmic
energy" one would expect in any Minimilist piece, he says less about
the music itself than either Norris or I, and hardly compliments
Andriessen's effort here. The Evening Standard was more descriptive,
but hardly positive in assessing the piece as inspired by "hardcore
trance music" and noting the orchestration undercut the efforts of the
soloists, and again really does not convey much sense of the music
itself, taking longer to say less than either Norris or I.
Glad you liked it; I did not.
Regards, Rugby
Christopher Webber
>Clements' was really a non-review.
I find that a curious piece of semantics. Correct me if I am wrong, but
it seems that for you "a review" has to mean a "good/bad" judgement on a
piece?
For me it comes down to (a) how well a writer uses the language to
describe what they've heard; whilst (b) showing respect for what the
composer was trying to convey; and (c) without being rude, opinionated
or personal.
By those criteria both Mr Clements and Mr Norris pass the test with
flying colours on "Hague Hacking", clearly and respectfully describing
what they've heard. Although they clearly disagree about the merit of
the piece, they are happy to provide a guide and leave us in essence to
make our own minds up about it.
Judgement - as I fear I've often said before on this forum - is best
left to Beckmessers. So I'll leave Mr Rugby behind his screen, with his
chalk and board, whilst wishing him a pleasant weekend!
Otterhouse Rolf
wrote:
Ok, this piece is very Dutch.
And I can see the joke in it.
In Dutch the title is Haags Hakkûh
written in the dialect of the Hague. Hakkuh is the name of dancing
on hardcore house music see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIZgnYx8ms0
O, o den haag is a cult song about the Hague
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptGJ8wzeGDE&fmt=18
The Andriessen piece can also be found on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAum1WCgNfQ&fmt=18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJZciP2kJ-I&fmt=18
So, nice to hear your comments about it....
Rolf
Christopher Webber
>Ok, this piece is very Dutch.
>And I can see the joke in it.
>written in the dialect of the Hague. Hakkuh is the name of dancing
>on hardcore house music see:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIZgnYx8ms0
Indeed, Rolf - the sense of fun (a smile beneath breaking out behind
that austere front) is very taking, I think - and it's good to learn a
little more about it from you.
>O, o den haag is a cult song about the Hague
I like the way it sneaks into the texture and "melts the ice" towards
the end - an unusually warm and cosy conclusion for Mr Andriessen.
To get back to recordings, but staying with Andriessen, I've enjoyed a
new volume from the Boston Modern Orchestra Project under Gil Rose,
which showcases Andriessen's current muse, Cristina Zavalloni.
The main work "La Passione" - which lends its title to the whole disc -
is a substantial, through-written 35 minute orchestral song cycle (with
electric violin solo to duet with the singer) on surreal dream-poems by
the Italian poet Dino Campana. Its musical style is not too far from
"Man, Music, Mozart" but with its hard edge of austerity softened by an
appropriately Italian lyricism.
There are also three shorter works, a percussive and appropriate
chimeful orchestral work "Bells for Haarlem" written for the opening of
the new Haarlem concert house, sounding like a clockwork pendant to "De
Tijd"; and two other, short vocal works for Zavalloni.
"Letter from Cathy" is a daring idea - a complete setting of a personal
letter to the composer from Cathy Berberian written in 1964, in which
she writes about her feelings on breaking up with Berio, and about a
crucial meeting with Stravinsky which led to his rewriting a new vocal
work specifically for her. Andriessen's setting is angular, odd and
slightly distanced, keeping softer emotions at bay, but none the less
touching for that.
Altogether, this is an absorbing CD for fans, though anyone with a
settled aversion to Andriessen's work is unlikely to be converted. The
performances and recording, in brief, are excellent. The catalogue
number is BMOP 1011.