Walter's NYPO Brahms Symphonies on Sony

[Mark S]

I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
distributor has it for $11).

This is Walter's 1951-3 mono set with the NYPO. As I've said before, I
haven't been much of a Walter fan over the years, but I'm always
willing to give a re-evaluation the old college try.

I did a search of this NG hoping to find some enlightened reviews, but
no luck. I saw one review that complained about the recorded sound in
the 2nd.

Is this worth getting? I'd sort of like to find a Walter recording
where the consensus is "if this doesn't allow you to get what Walter
was about, you never will."

Comments?

[T. Esteban Ayala]

If you're looking for that "if this doesn't allow you to get what
Walter was about, you never will" kind of recording, try his Beethoven
6th, preferably his recording with the Philadelphia Orchestra. But,
really, any of his studio recordings of that work lay out the most
appealing attributes of his art: geniality, civility, warmth, and a
touch of humor. Do get a hold of his Dvorak 8th too if you can find
it. That's one of the best things he ever made. Other recordings I'd
recommend are his acoustic Tchaikovsky 6th that was reissued by DG
Japan and a blazing Symphonie Fantastique with the NBC SO on Arbiter.

As for this Brahms set, I highly recommend it. I love his later
Columbia SO set as well, but this set finds him in more fiery mood;
with a taut sense of rhythm and architecture. Best of all, in my
opinion, are the 2nd and 3rd Symphonies. The first movement of the 2nd
is as songful and ecstatic as you could ever hope to hear, yet never
becomes distended. Walter had an uncanny knack for allowing melodies
to breathe in expansive fashion without having to resort to pulling
back on the tempos. His 3rd is also magnificent, with a gorgeously
shaped second movement aided by the lovely, bucolic NYPO winds.

Honestly, no Brahms cycle is perfect, but this is one of the few I can
say where the performances are uniformly of first-rank quality. At the
price you quoted above, it's a bargain that any Brahms fan would be a
fool to pass on.

[jrsnfld]

On Feb 9, 10:07 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I don't know if there's any one recording by Walter that will do that
for you, but his Brahms set with the NYPO is one of his finest
achievements, IMHO, and it is indeed stifled somewhat by the sound. At
that price, you might as well give it a try. One of the great things
about Walter is that his work late in his career is very satisfying
but quite different than his work early in his career. Some additional
Walter recordings you should definitely try include:

Mahler 4/Mozart 38 with the Vienna Phil (part of the DG set for the
orchestra's 150th anniversary.
Beethoven 9 with the Vienna Phil on Orfeo
Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique (Paris Conservatoire Orch, but also
maybe the NBC SO from 1939)
Brahms 2/Double Concerto (live performances with NYPO; Corigliano/Rose
are the soloists)
Schubert 8 Philadelphia
Beethoven Fidelio (Flagstad/Maison/MET 1941 is the one I have and
like, but there is at least one other with Flagstad)
Wagner Walkuere Act 1
Verdi La Forza (Roman Tibbett MET 1943)

I imagine you've encountered some of these already; these are the
recordings that made me a fan of Walter.

--Jeff

[Mark S]

On Feb 9, 11:05 pm, "T. Esteban Ayala" <testebanay...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Honestly, no Brahms cycle is perfect, but this is one of the few I can
> say where the performances are uniformly of first-rank quality. At the
> price you quoted above, it's a bargain that any Brahms fan would be a
> fool to pass on.

Well, I'm not exactly the world's biggest Brahms fan, but I'm also no
fool.

Thanks for the opinion.

[pianomaven]

I have had this on LP for years and on CD, Mark. But frankly, the
later CSO recordings seem much better to me. And not badly recorded,
either.

Those who claim that Walter had become flabby in his old age - they
always complain that he was slower, as though this is a crime of some
kind (note the use of "fiery" to describe the NYPO versions, hence the
CSO is not fiery enough!!!) - are usually Toscanini admirers, who
never seem to complain about their beloved maestro being TOO fiery.

I say, go for the CSO versions. Easy to find and buy.

TD

[Abbeddrose Bierce]

The Horn playing of James Chambers is worth the price of admission

Abbedd

[Peter H.]

On Feb 10, 2:05 am, "T. Esteban Ayala" <testebanay...@gmail.com>
wrote:

I am going to second the Dvorak 8th, which I have been listening to on
Spotify recently. Copies of the CD are rather pricey on Amazon right
now, so here's hoping that further reissues are coming from Sony. And
yes, you should buy the Brahms!

[wkasimer]

On Feb 10, 1:07 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
> distributor has it for $11).

Mark, a couple of the UK sellers are pretty reliable (particularly
Avatar). They obviously take a little longer (some of them a LOT
longer), but I've never had a problem ordering from them.

Also, these recordings were also issued on United Archive in a 3 CD
set that included some other Brahms conducted by Walter (the two
overtures and some other odds and ends - I don't recall exactly). I
can't tell you how the sound compares, but the sound on the Sony set
is fine.

> This is Walter's 1951-3 mono set with the NYPO. As I've said before, I
> haven't been much of a Walter fan over the years, but I'm always
> willing to give a re-evaluation the old college try.

This is among my favorite Brahms sets. I didn't pay a lot of
attention to Walter during my first half century, but have begun to
see what I've been missing.

> Is this worth getting? I'd sort of like to find a Walter recording
> where the consensus is "if this doesn't allow you to get what Walter
> was about, you never will."

I doubt that you need another Schubert "Unfinished", but his late one
is among my favorites. And another vote for his Dvorak 8.

Bill

[Peter H.]

> Mark, a couple of the UK sellers are pretty reliable (particularly
> Avatar).  They obviously take a little longer (some of them a LOT
> longer), but I've never had a problem ordering from them.

Agreed. Avatar has been very good for me. They ship very quickly.
OTOH, Overstocks, while you can get some great deals from them (new
and used), is not the retailer to pick if you want something sooner
than later.

[Peter H.]

A quick aside: can someone comment / recommend the Walter Bruckner
8th on M&A? Is this his only version of this work? Thx.

[wkasimer]

On Feb 10, 1:07 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I did a search of this NG hoping to find some enlightened reviews, but
> no luck. I saw one review that complained about the recorded sound in
> the 2nd.

I don't know if you saw this discussion, from 2007:

http://tinyurl.com/5ah76v

Bill

[FrankB]

> 8th on M&A? Is this his only version of this work? Thx.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It is indeed his only extant version, a pity since he did it again in
1948 with the NYP but it was not broadcast. The 1941 recording on M&A
is from an off-the-air set of transcription discs in variable
condition, but they did what they could with the source material. The
performance is the same one mentioned near the end of Walter's
autobiography. It could be called "fiery" I suppose, but I would say
that it is both urgent and flexible.

Frank

[Greg]

On Feb 10, 1:07 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The mono cycle is good, though the sound isn't great even for its
era. However, given what you've said in the past about your Brahms
taste, I imagine you would prefer his stereo cycle. Have you heard
it? The mono cycle is a lot faster, even hectic at times, which I am
guessing you won't appreciate. If you don't like his stereo Brahms 2,
then I have no idea what to recommend to you, either in Brahms or in
Walter. A wonderful recording.

Greg

[J.Martin]

> Also, these recordings were also issued on United Archive in a 3 CD
> set that included some other Brahms conducted by Walter (the two
> overtures and some other odds and ends - I don't recall exactly).  I
> can't tell you how the sound compares, but the sound on the Sony set
> is fine.

I have the UA version. The sound on that is very, very good for the
era--haven't heard the Sony but I can't imagine it being any better.

And yes, the set is essential, even if its virtues relative to the
stereo set have sometimes been exagerrated. (Isn't it always the case
that collectors will tout the virtues of the harder to find set?) The
stereo's good, too. But the mono is among the best cycles on record
for me.

[Praetorius]

wkasimer wrote:

Mark S wrote:

> I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
> distributor has it for $11).

Mark, a couple of the UK sellers are pretty reliable (particularly
Avatar). They obviously take a little longer (some of them a LOT
longer), but I've never had a problem ordering from them.

[snip]
__________________________________________________

I have had good experiences (including fast shipping) with both
avatarmusic and Sent2u_by_HTS-Scotland.

Frank Decolvenaere
To reply by e-mail, replace NMBR with 1612.

"You are no bigger than
the things that annoy you."
Jerry Bundsen

[Mark S]

I've used Presto and MDT in the past.

I can order the thing from N Carolina for $11.98 + $2.98 shipping and
have the thing by Monday, or I can order it from Avatar or any number
of UK distributors, pay $7.98 + $4.98 shipping and have delivered take
two to three weeks.

[T. Esteban Ayala]

Ugh, Jesus... you again. Clearly you didn't read my post thoroughly--
or basic English comprehension skills elude you. Either way, I didn't
criticize the Columbia Symphony recordings at all; only that I
preferred the NYPO set.

I should note that, with a few exceptions, I'm not a Toscanini fan.
Nor do I believe Walter got slower as he aged (he did not). Rather, I
feel his grip of rhythm and architecture slackened--something very
different. So much for your stereotyping.

Also, three exclamation points? Way to go there. Nice to see you can
do a pretty impressive imitation of a 12-year-old running loose on
their keyboard whilst on their initial foray on TinyChat. Just add a
"LOL", "ROFL", "FTW", and whatever other snippets of teen/chanspeak
you feel are necessary and you'll be set.

[T. Esteban Ayala]

A real shame about the sound on that CD. Urgent and flexible is an apt
description; a very fine Bruckner 8th. He had been planning to record
it with the Columbia Symphony (as well as the Mahler 4th, 5th, and
possibly 3rd), but didn't live long enough to do so. That would've
been interesting to hear.

[Peter H.]

> two to three weeks.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Shipping is still $2.98 for Amazon, even if it comes from the UK.

[Praetorius]

Mark S wrote:

====================================================

If you buy through Amazon as marketplace seller, avatarmusic is
selling the Sony set (new) for $7.41+ >$2.98< shipping and
Sent2u_by_HTS-Scotland for $7.51+ $2.98 shipping. My experience
for them (through Amazon) has been 10 days - 2 weeks for receipt
(NY) from order date. I guess it all depends on how anxious you are
to hear the set and what your "time" is worth to you.

[Peter H.]

On Feb 10, 12:47 pm, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> two to three weeks.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

And if by "NC" you mean the seller MovieMars, my experience is that
you certainly won't have it by Monday and maybe not even the Monday
after that. I use them if the price is right, and it occasionally is,
but they have often been sloooow, if they even actually have the
item. On more than one occasion that has happened to me with them
(not having the item, I mean), and it took them forever to acknowledge
that the order was placed and subsequently cancel it. It just sits
there in limbo. Meanwhile I could have been ordering and listening
from someone else. Just sayin' . . .

[jrsnfld]

On Feb 10, 9:45 am, "T. Esteban Ayala" <testebanay...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I should note that, with a few exceptions, I'm not a Toscanini fan.
> Nor do I believe Walter got slower as he aged (he did not). Rather, I
> feel his grip of rhythm and architecture slackened--something very
> different. So much for your stereotyping.

I can't imagine equating Toscanini-love with preferences for the
earlier Walter. The differences are huge, and one could easily argue
that the later Walter has as much or more in common with Toscanini's
general approach than the more subjective earlier Walter.

It is easy to admire both early and late Walter without confusing the
two.

I think both tendencies are true...he got slower (in some pieces at
least) but speed is not the most important factor: more critically,
his interest in accentuating architecture and rhythm slackened. That
doesn't mean there's no rhythmic or architectural feel, but it gets
more subtle. Better or worse is a personal thing, but either way, his
less subtle earlier self was more distinctive compared to the
conductors who came after Walter.

--Jeff

[graham]

"Praetorius" <praetor...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:jh3l08$1gf$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

> wkasimer wrote:
> Mark S wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
>> distributor has it for $11).
>
> Mark, a couple of the UK sellers are pretty reliable (particularly
> Avatar). They obviously take a little longer (some of them a LOT
> longer), but I've never had a problem ordering from them.
>
> [snip]
> __________________________________________________
>
> I have had good experiences (including fast shipping) with both
> avatarmusic and Sent2u_by_HTS-Scotland.
>

Judging by the punctuation on their web page, the company must be owned by
greengrocers.
Graham

[wkasimer]

On Feb 10, 1:05 pm, "Peter H." <pbho...@gmail.com> wrote:

> And if by "NC" you mean the seller MovieMars, my experience is that
> you certainly won't have it by Monday and maybe not even the Monday
> after that.

That's been my experience as well. Reliable, but slow.

Bill

[Mark Melson]

The stereo Walter Brahms symphonies have many virtues, but I am still
disappointed (despite the slimmed-down Brahms which is fashionable
today) by the relative scrawniness of the string sound. Producer John
McClure told me years ago that most of Walter's "Columbia Symphony
Orchestra" recordings made in Los Angeles used, for budgetary reasons,
only 55 players, though they splurged for 65 in some cases (Bruckner
symphonies, for example). It's not a fatal flaw, in my view, but there
are times when I want more heft and warmth.

Mark

[Mark S]

Good to know.

[David Fox]

On Feb 10, 4:11 am, wkasimer <wkasi...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On Feb 10, 1:07 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
> > distributor has it for $11).
>
> Mark, a couple of the UK sellers are pretty reliable (particularly
> Avatar).  They obviously take a little longer (some of them a LOT
> longer), but I've never had a problem ordering from them.
>
> Also, these recordings were also issued on United Archive in a 3 CD
> set that included some other Brahms conducted by Walter (the two
> overtures and some other odds and ends - I don't recall exactly).  I
> can't tell you how the sound compares, but the sound on the Sony set
> is fine.
>

Here's a link to a message I posted in 2007 describing the
differences between the Sony issue(s) and
the United Archives. The Sony is much better.

http://bit.ly/xoWwuW

DF

[Mark S]

On Feb 10, 7:15 pm, David Fox <davidfox2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Here's  a link to a message I posted  in 2007 describing the
> differences between the Sony issue(s) and
> the United Archives.  The Sony is much better.
>
> http://bit.ly/xoWwuW
>

Thanks for that, David.

I ordered the Sony set from avatar in the UK earlier today. Should
have it in about 10 days or so.

[Phlmaestro75]

On Feb 10, 1:07 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
> distributor has it for $11).
>

> This is Walter's 1951-3 mono set with the NYPO. As I've said before, I
> haven't been much of a Walter fan over the years, but I'm always
> willing to give a re-evaluation the old college try.
>

> I did a search of this NG hoping to find some enlightened reviews, but
> no luck. I saw one review that complained about the recorded sound in
> the 2nd.
>

> Is this worth getting? I'd sort of like to find a Walter recording
> where the consensus is "if this doesn't allow you to get what Walter
> was about, you never will."
>

> Comments?

I don't think you'll find better recordings of the second or third
symphonies. They're more aggressive than the later Columbia SO
recordings. I don't think the first or fourth are in the same league
as the middle two. I've long felt Furtwangler was best (at least in
his best recorded performances) in the outer two symphonies and Walter
in the inner two.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters to be
typed in news:4bac8c9c-7dbc-4e0f-87bd-b28bae258c22
@sw7g2000pbc.googlegroups.com:

> Mahler 4/Mozart 38 with the Vienna Phil (part of the DG set for the
> orchestra's 150th anniversary.

> Wagner Walkuere Act 1

Yes to both, emphatically!

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers

[Terry Simmons]

In article
<706627f1-7c3f-4bbb...@m24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,

Maybe it's the recorded quality. For the premieres of his symphonies,
Brahms used the Karlsruhe orchestra (about 55-60 musicians). Moreover,
he refused offers to beef up the orchestra, preferring the leaner sound
of the orchestra "as it was".

[Steve de Mena]

And of course we're all perfectly happy with the CDs available of the
Brahms symphonies that Brahms made shortly after the premieres with
the Karlsruhe orchestra.

Steve

[Gerard]

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> typed:

Not at all.
The premiere of the 2nd symphony was in Vienna.
The premiere of the 3rd symphony was with the Wiener Philharmoniker.
The premiere of the 4th symphony was in Meiningen.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:m7ednUyVmtsy7qvS...@giganews.com:

Wasn't this part of the rationale behind Mackerras' recordings a few years
ago?

[Bob Harper]

On 2/11/12 7:23 AM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> Steve de Mena<st...@demena.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:m7ednUyVmtsy7qvS...@giganews.com:
>
>> On 2/11/12 5:16 AM, Terry Simmons wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe it's the recorded quality. For the premieres of his symphonies,
>>> Brahms used the Karlsruhe orchestra (about 55-60 musicians). Moreover,
>>> he refused offers to beef up the orchestra, preferring the leaner sound
>>> of the orchestra "as it was".
>>
>> And of course we're all perfectly happy with the CDs available of the
>> Brahms symphonies that Brahms made shortly after the premieres with
>> the Karlsruhe orchestra.
>
> Wasn't this part of the rationale behind Mackerras' recordings a few years
> ago?
>

I don't know about anybody else, but I'd be perfectly happy to hear a CD
of Brahms or his designee conducting the premiere of any of his
symphonies :)

Bob Harper

[M forever]

On Feb 11, 8:16 am, Terry Simmons <tlste...@tpgi.com.au> wrote:
> In article
> <706627f1-7c3f-4bbb-8243-c20ce215a...@m24g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,

Only the premiere of the 1st was in Karlsruhe. The 2nd and 3rd were
premiered in Vienna and the 4th in Meiningen where the orchestra was
indeed rather small - but then so was the theater they played in. I
didn't know that for the premiere of the 1st in Karlsruhe, and equally
small orchestra was used. Where did you find that information?

[Gerard]

M forever <ms1...@gmail.com> typed:

Try Wikipedia.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

Bob Harper <bob.h...@comcast.net> appears to have caused the following

letters to be typed in

news:mwwZq.61528$L13....@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com:

Well, we can't get quite that close, but Weingartner tells of his 1896
encounter with Brahms in Vienna:

I had decided to open my concert with Brahms' Second Symphony of which I
was even then very fond, though I had obstinately hardened my heart against
many of his works. I still saw in Brahms the man who had been destined to
overthrow Wagner. I had not yet freed myself sufficiently from the spell
of the Bayreuth magician to meet without embarrassment his great opposite
number, though as a matter of fact Brahms was nothing of the kind.

When Richard Heuberger, who met me at the station on the morning of the day
on which the concert was to take place, said: "We are now going to call on
Brahms," I expressed doubts whether he would be willing to receive a
"Wagnerian." Heuberger's pacifying assurance that Brahms was entirely
impartial quieted my scruples, so I agreed to accompany him to the old
house in the Karlsgasse. Brahms received me graciously, but yet seemed to
cherish some resentment against me, for, when the conversation turned on
the evening's programme, on which his Symphony was followed by Berlioz'
"Carnaval Romain," he suddenly said in a rather irritable way, "The first
item will be played in vain, the public won't wake up till your Berlioz
comes." I felt hurt, but answered quietly: "In any case equal attention
will be paid to Brahms and to Berlioz in the _execution_." The answer
seemed to please him, for he turned kindly again and handed me, as if
silently asking my pardon, an enormous cigar wrapped in silver paper, which
he made me light at once, but which I only managed to smoke about half-way.
Shuffling along on knitted grey socks -- he wore no slippers -- he
proceeded to show me his well-stocked library, and then the visit came to
an end. The evening brought us into closer contact. His Symphony was the
greatest success of all. "I am pleased at the way my piece is mirrored in
your head," he said when we met at his accustomed table in the "Roter
Igel." And he pressed my hand warmly. He had risen when I came in and
remained standing until I sat down, which Heuberger interpreted as being a
sign that he was particularly pleased. "As a rule he doesn't stand up so
easily, once he has settled to his beer -- he must have liked it
immensely," he whispered in my ear.

Weingartner, Felix. Buffets and Rewards: A Musician's Reminiscences.
Marguerite Wolff, trans. London: Hutchinson & Co., 1937, pp. 221-222.

Weingartner then made the tactical error of mentioning his recent visit to
the dying Bruckner. But read the book for yourself. It's full of choice
stories, including a great many about and involving Liszt. Weingartner
recorded the Brahms Second in one of his final recording sessions in 1940,
and it has been available on CD for many years.

[herman]

On 11 fév, 15:51, "Gerard" <ghendri_nospam-k...@hotmail.com> wrote:


>
> Not at all.
> The premiere of the 2nd symphony was in Vienna.
> The premiere of the 3rd symphony was with the Wiener Philharmoniker.
> The premiere of the 4th symphony was in Meiningen.

I seem to recall Mackerras modeled his Telarc set on the Meiningen
orchestra, which seems a little odd, since only the Fourth was
premiered in Meiningen.

It also skips the matter that Brahms did not necessarily opt for
Meiningen because he thought it was his ideal orchestra. Brahms was a
political canny guy. He premiered his last symphony in the periphery
because he wasn't sure how it would be recieved in major cities.

[M forever]

On Feb 11, 2:24 pm, herman <her...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 11 fév, 15:51, "Gerard" <ghendri_nospam-k...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Not at all.
> > The premiere of the 2nd symphony was in Vienna.
> > The premiere of the 3rd symphony was with the Wiener Philharmoniker.
> > The premiere of the 4th symphony was in Meiningen.
>
> I seem to recall Mackerras modeled his Telarc set on the Meiningen
> orchestra, which seems a little odd, since only the Fourth was
> premiered in Meiningen.

Mackerras didn't necessarily want to "reconstruct" that premiere
though. It was more the general idea that Brahms liked to hear his
works performed by a small orchestra which allowed all the fine detail
of his compositions to come through.

> It also skips the matter that Brahms did not necessarily opt for
> Meiningen because he thought it was his ideal orchestra. Brahms was a
> political canny guy. He premiered his last symphony in the periphery
> because he wasn't sure how it would be recieved in major cities.

I wonder if that is really the case. Obviously, Brahms had many
detractors among the followers of Liszt and Wagner, but the majority
of the critics and the public were on his side. They took the 4th
symphony on a tour right after the premiere anyway, so it's not like
he wanted to "hide" it from the general public. I think it was mostly
the presence of Bülow in Meiningen and the fact that they were able to
rehearse the symphony very thoroughly which made him decide to have
the premiere there. The theater in Meiningen is quite small, BTW, so
an orchestra of that size doesn't necessarily sound "small" there.

[Gerard]

herman <her...@yahoo.com> typed:

Right. Being premiered is not the whole story (by Mackerras). Brahms _liked_ the
(rather small) Meiningen orchestra for performing his symphonies.

[Matthew Silverstein]

On Thu, 9 Feb 2012 22:07:53 -0800 (PST), Mark S wrote:

> Is this worth getting? I'd sort of like to find a Walter recording
> where the consensus is "if this doesn't allow you to get what Walter
> was about, you never will."

Yes, that's what I'd say about this set. If you're prepared for what are
now unfashionably fast tempi, I think you'll enjoy it.

Matty

[Sol L. Siegel]

"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in
news:Xns9FF67668524...@216.168.3.70:

> Weingartner, Felix. Buffets and Rewards: A Musician's Reminiscences.
> Marguerite Wolff, trans. London: Hutchinson & Co., 1937, pp.

> 221-222....

>
> Weingartner recorded the Brahms Second in one of his final
> recording sessions in 1940, and it has been available on CD for many
> years.

Still one of my favorite versions, though one has to be skeptical of
how close it might have come to his performance for Brahms 44 years
previously.

I'll have to try to find a copy of that book, for the Bruckner
story if nothing else.

- Sol L. Siegel, Philadelphia, PA USA

[Steve de Mena]

On 2/11/12 7:23 AM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:

> Steve de Mena<st...@demena.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:m7ednUyVmtsy7qvS...@giganews.com:
>
>> On 2/11/12 5:16 AM, Terry Simmons wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe it's the recorded quality. For the premieres of his symphonies,
>>> Brahms used the Karlsruhe orchestra (about 55-60 musicians). Moreover,
>>> he refused offers to beef up the orchestra, preferring the leaner sound
>>> of the orchestra "as it was".
>>
>> And of course we're all perfectly happy with the CDs available of the
>> Brahms symphonies that Brahms made shortly after the premieres with
>> the Karlsruhe orchestra.
>
> Wasn't this part of the rationale behind Mackerras' recordings a few years
> ago?
>

Maybe it is, but if I don't like the sound of a recording because I
feel the forces are too thin, the fact that the premier used those
same forces really means nothing to me. Related, if a recording is
said to accurately reflect a way an orchestra sounds in a particular
hall, but sounds bad in my "hall" (my room and/or headphones) that's
little solace to me. There are some recordings I know are somewhat
"juiced up" or over-miked, but which sound great in my "hall".

I'll have to see if I have those Mackerras recoridngs, I would be
curious to hear Brahms with a smaller orchestra just to hear what it
sounds like.

Steve

[Steve de Mena]

Me too, of course! Just to really hear what performing practices and
technical ability were like at the time.

Steve

[Gerard]

Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> typed:

You also could try Norrington's recordings.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Sol L. Siegel" <vod...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following
letters to be typed in news:Xns9FF6EF144D9...@130.133.4.11:

There is so much else in it that is fascinating. Check the archives for
the many things I've mentioned here over the years, such as Weingartner's
fascination with solar eclipses, and his bizarre employment history.

[Matthew B. Tepper]

"Sol L. Siegel" <vod...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
to be typed in news:Xns9FF6EF144D9...@130.133.4.11:

> I'll have to try to find a copy of that book, for the Bruckner story if
> nothing else.

I've looked around a bit, and if you really do want the book, you're going to
have to open your wallet to the tune of $79 and up. Examining my old emails,
I see that I paid only $25 (plus $4.50 shipping) for it in 1999, and even
then I thought the price was a great bargain.

Neither Google Books nor archive.org has it, although Weingartner's other
books (some of which went through multiple editions) are available as etexts.

[Kip Williams]

Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> "Sol L. Siegel"<vod...@aol.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:Xns9FF6EF144D9...@130.133.4.11:
>
>> I'll have to try to find a copy of that book, for the Bruckner story if
>> nothing else.
>
> I've looked around a bit, and if you really do want the book, you're going to
> have to open your wallet to the tune of $79 and up. Examining my old emails,
> I see that I paid only $25 (plus $4.50 shipping) for it in 1999, and even
> then I thought the price was a great bargain.
>
> Neither Google Books nor archive.org has it, although Weingartner's other
> books (some of which went through multiple editions) are available as etexts.

Did you try picking out a distinctive phrase that wasn't likely to have
been quoted by itself and Googling for it? I've turned up books that way.


Kip W

[wanwan]

On Feb 11, 11:17 pm, Steve de Mena <st...@demena.com> wrote:
> On 2/11/12 7:23 AM, Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Steve de Mena<st...@demena.com>  appears to have caused the following letters

> > to be typed innews:m7ednUyVmtsy7qvS...@giganews.com:

>
> >> On 2/11/12 5:16 AM, Terry Simmons wrote:
>
> >>> Maybe it's the recorded quality. For the premieres of his symphonies,
> >>> Brahms used the Karlsruhe orchestra (about 55-60 musicians). Moreover,
> >>> he refused offers to beef up the orchestra, preferring the leaner sound
> >>> of the orchestra "as it was".
>
> >> And of course we're all perfectly happy with the CDs available of the
> >> Brahms symphonies that Brahms made shortly after the premieres with
> >> the Karlsruhe orchestra.
>
> > Wasn't this part of the rationale behind Mackerras' recordings a few years
> > ago?
>
> Maybe it is, but if I don't like the sound of a recording because I
> feel the forces are too thin, the fact that the premier used those
> same forces really means nothing to me. Related, if a recording is
> said to accurately reflect a way an orchestra sounds in a particular
> hall, but sounds bad in my "hall" (my room and/or headphones) that's
> little solace to me. There are some recordings I know are somewhat
> "juiced up" or over-miked, but which sound great in my "hall".
>
> I'll have to see if I have those Mackerras recoridngs, I would be
> curious to hear Brahms with a smaller orchestra just to hear what it
> sounds like.
>
> Steve

I'm pretty sure that Walter's Columbia SO recordings used a small
orchestra based on Zubin Mehta's Comments...something like only 3 or 4
basses.

--------------
Eric

[Chew Chiat Naun]

On Feb 11, 10:30 pm, "Sol L. Siegel" <vod...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Weingartner, Felix.  Buffets and Rewards:  A Musician's Reminiscences.
> >  Marguerite Wolff, trans.  London:  Hutchinson & Co., 1937,
>

> I'll have to try to find a copy of that book, for the Bruckner
> story if nothing else.

If you'd settle for borrowing a copy, a few libraries do have it:

http://www.worldcat.org/oclc/3288646

[Bob Harper]

I remember reading somewhere--perhaps in this forum--that even for the
Mahler 9th there were only 4 double basses. I hope that's wrong, but...

Bob Harper

[wanwan]

In The Absolute Sound well known Discography Michael Gray mentions
this as something Zubin Mehta told him.

----------
Eric

[Mark S]

Thanks to everyone who recommended this set to me. I've now made my
way through it and I think it's a keeper.

Energetic performances that go from the exciting to the near miss.

The Second is the strongest in the set. Love the strings. The voicings
in the brass are great. Clear as a bell. I felt the finale was a hair
too fast.

The Third is also good, though the Finale is a mad scramble. I don't
think such a recording would get issued these days. A retake would be
in order.

The First? Well, I didn't think much of the first movement, and that
didn't bode well for the set as a whole as that's where I started my
listening. But it's another good performance that gathers steam as it
goes, even with the contrabassoon sounding like a pitchless fart in
the Finale.

Least successful is the 4th, which was the earliest recording (1951)
and which suffers from changing perspectives and a too-distant sound.

It's interesting to hear recordings like this. If anything, they
reveal that music making back in the day was a great deal messier than
it is today. Truth be told, the technical aspects of the 1951-53 NYPO
aren't the equal of many second-tier orchestras that are around today.
Those second-tier orchestras play with a greater sense of nuance than
one hears on these discs. They phrase more musically, play with a more-
consistent sound quality and have an inner clock that keeps tempos
generally tighter. But the old orchestra plays with a great deal of
energy and enthusiasm. You get the feeling that they feel they're
playing "their" music for themselves, not playing the music of a great
composer for an audience that needs to be educated. They're in the
middle of it, not at an arm's distance.

The old way of playing is a bit more straight forward. No one is
trying to "help" the music relate to an audience by milking/wringing
every last drop of emotion from the piece. It's played with the
knowledge that the audience is going to get to hear this music again
in the not-too-distant-future, and because of that, we don't need to
load up this particular performance with the musical equivalent of the
kitchen sink (which tends to happen these days because today's
audience may not come back any time soon, what, with all of the other
media distractions in their life).

It's a bit like the comfortable sweater, or the hymn that gets sung
every other Sunday. It feels right without necessarily feeling
monumental. We're not being treated to high art, we're being treated
to music that's very much alive.

So, I've found a Walter recording that I very much enjoy.

BTW - I listened to this set thru headphones as I find that makes it
easier for me to tune out the hiss and other distortions that are part
and parcel to vintage recordings. Sounded damn fine.

[Abbeddrose Bierce]

On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:07:55 -0800 (PST), Mark S
<markst...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Truth be told, the technical aspects of the 1951-53 NYPO
>aren't the equal of many second-tier orchestras that are around today.
>Those second-tier orchestras play with a greater sense of nuance than
>one hears on these discs. They phrase more musically, play with a more-
>consistent sound quality and have an inner clock that keeps tempos
>generally tighter. But the old orchestra plays with a great deal of
>energy and enthusiasm. You get the feeling that they feel they're
>playing "their" music for themselves, not playing the music of a great
>composer for an audience that needs to be educated. They're in the
>middle of it, not at an arm's distance.

Total bullshit

Abbedd

[Gerard]

Mark S <markst...@yahoo.com> typed:

>
> It's interesting to hear recordings like this. If anything, they
> reveal that music making back in the day was a great deal messier than
> it is today. Truth be told, the technical aspects of the 1951-53 NYPO
> aren't the equal of many second-tier orchestras that are around today.
> Those second-tier orchestras play with a greater sense of nuance than
> one hears on these discs. They phrase more musically, play with a
> more- consistent sound quality and have an inner clock that keeps
> tempos generally tighter. But the old orchestra plays with a great
> deal of energy and enthusiasm. You get the feeling that they feel
> they're playing "their" music for themselves, not playing the music
> of a great composer for an audience that needs to be educated.

Do you have examples of recordings of orchestras who play the music of a great
composer for an audience that needs to be educated?
I cannot remember I've heard one.

[3Bs]

On Feb 25, 1:07 am, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> So, I've found a Walter recording that I very much enjoy.

I used to consider Walter a blind spot, but there are plenty of early
recordings that rise to a similar level of the Brahms 2. The Beethoven
set on United Archives- and the Schubert 9- also have their moments,
just for starters.

[herman]

On 25 fév, 08:07, Mark S <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:


>
> The old way of playing is a bit more straight forward. No one is
> trying to "help" the music relate to an audience by milking/wringing
> every last drop of emotion from the piece. It's played with the
> knowledge that the audience is going to get to hear this music again
> in the not-too-distant-future, and because of that, we don't need to
> load up this particular performance with the musical equivalent of the
> kitchen sink (which tends to happen these days because today's
> audience may not come back any time soon, what, with all of the other
> media distractions in their life).
>

Isn't this rather clipped style a general characteristic of the
fifties?

I can think of some pianists, and chamber music groups who played like
this. Musicians (classical musicians) weren't expected to indulge in
that era, perhaps as a reaction to the previous generation.

[John Wiser]

"Gerard" <ghendrik_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you have examples of recordings of orchestras who play the music of a
> great
> composer for an audience that needs to be educated?
> I cannot remember I've heard one.
>

Absolutely, Scheißkopf!
Everything recorded
by the New York Philharmonic
since time began.

JDW

[gggg...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, February 9, 2012 at 8:07:53 PM UTC-10, Mark S wrote:
> I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
> distributor has it for $11).
>
> This is Walter's 1951-3 mono set with the NYPO. As I've said before, I
> haven't been much of a Walter fan over the years, but I'm always
> willing to give a re-evaluation the old college try.
>
> I did a search of this NG hoping to find some enlightened reviews, but
> no luck. I saw one review that complained about the recorded sound in
> the 2nd.

>
> Is this worth getting? I'd sort of like to find a Walter recording
> where the consensus is "if this doesn't allow you to get what Walter
> was about, you never will."
>

> Comments?

(Upcoming radio program):

https://www.wfmt.com/programs/collectors-corner-with-henry-fogel/

[drh8h]

On Friday, June 28, 2019 at 11:41:54 PM UTC-4, gggg...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 9, 2012 at 8:07:53 PM UTC-10, Mark S wrote:
> > I'm thinking of ordering this set through Amazon (a domestic
> > distributor has it for $11).
> >
> > This is Walter's 1951-3 mono set with the NYPO. As I've said before, I
> > haven't been much of a Walter fan over the years, but I'm always
> > willing to give a re-evaluation the old college try.
> >
> > I did a search of this NG hoping to find some enlightened reviews, but
> > no luck. I saw one review that complained about the recorded sound in
> > the 2nd.
> >
> > Is this worth getting? I'd sort of like to find a Walter recording
> > where the consensus is "if this doesn't allow you to get what Walter
> > was about, you never will."
> >
> > Comments?

The VPO Das Lieds and NYP Mahler 5. Bruckner Te Deum. Any of the "live" Bruckner 9s. Act One of Die Walküre.