Exposure to Bax
Steve M.
once I had a free night!). I saw--along with a sparkling Beethoven 7
conducted by Lukas Foss--Bax's tone poem Tintagel. I really, really enjoyed
the Tintagel, and having absolutely no previous experience with Bax, would
like some suggestions for recordings of both Tintagel, and Bax's other
works. Where should a Bax beginner start?
Thanks!
Steve Miran
Thomas Muething
Oh, my. Bax was a very prolific composer, and much of his output is
appealing. Pointers may include:
- Symphonies 1-3 and 6 (my recommendation is still Chandos/Thomson)
- other tone poems, The Garden of Fand, The Happy Forest, November Woods
- the splendid Winter Legends for Piano and Orchestra (Chandos)
- the Spring Fire Symphony (not numbered) (Chandos/Handley)
- the String Quartets (Naxos)
The "best" recording of Tintagel that I know of is LSO/Barbirolli,
coupled with RVW's "London Symphony" (EMI, British Composers).
Thomas
--
"That's the spirit ... If nothing else works, then a total pig-headed
unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." General
Sir Anthony Cecil Hogmanay Melchett, Black Adder Goes Forth
Bob Lombard
Perhaps the best thing you could do is to cherish that experience in
memory. The odds are pretty good that you will find no Bax enjoyable
again - except relative to Delius, and that's akin to the 'pleasure'
experienced when torture ceases.
bl
Paul Goldstein
Just go right to the Naxos bin. Its Bax series is uniformly excellent, and a
great way to hear his music.
Paul Goldstein
Alan Hayward
message news:3E412B47...@t-online.de...
> Steve M. wrote:
>
> > like some suggestions for recordings of both Tintagel, and Bax's other
> > works. Where should a Bax beginner start?
>
> Oh, my. Bax was a very prolific composer, and much of his output is
> appealing. Pointers may include:
>
> - Symphonies 1-3 and 6 (my recommendation is still Chandos/Thomson)
> - other tone poems, The Garden of Fand, The Happy Forest, November Woods
> - the splendid Winter Legends for Piano and Orchestra (Chandos)
> - the Spring Fire Symphony (not numbered) (Chandos/Handley)
> - the String Quartets (Naxos)
>
> The "best" recording of Tintagel that I know of is LSO/Barbirolli,
> coupled with RVW's "London Symphony" (EMI, British Composers).
To add to Thomas's suggestions, I would add Symphonies 4 and 5. I also
prefer the Chandos recordings to the Naxos but the latter are very good and,
at the price, you can't go wrong.
I also heartily endorse Thomas's recommendation of Barbirolli's Tintagel
recording.
Rick Fethers
I'd try something, and listen in.....
vaneyes
>....would
> like some suggestions for recordings of both Tintagel, and Bax's other
> works. Where should a Bax beginner start?
Chandos Syms 2 & 4, Tone Poems. Naxos String Quartets.
Regards
David Lobdell
"Alan Hayward" <alan_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
The Barbirolli Tintagel is unsurpassed in my estimation also---both in
interpretation and sound. Try to find it in its original coupling with
Ireland's London Overture, another underappreciated gem.
David Lobdell
Simple Country Pathologist
Sacqueboutier
Don't worry. The US has a contingency plan in place for this situation.
--
Don Patterson
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous."
Ray Hall
news:u9b24vsdr9lv40qpr...@4ax.com...
Blasphemy!!!!!
Let this man be fed to the bears.
Regards,
# http://www.users.bigpond.com/hallraylily/index.html
See You Tamara (Ozzy Osbourne)
Ray, Taree, NSW
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.449 / Virus Database: 251 - Release Date: 27/01/03
Ray Hall
|
| > Last night I went to go see the BU SO for the first time in a while (for
| > once I had a free night!). I saw--along with a sparkling Beethoven 7
| > conducted by Lukas Foss--Bax's tone poem Tintagel. I really, really
enjoyed
| > the Tintagel, and having absolutely no previous experience with Bax,
would
| > like some suggestions for recordings of both Tintagel, and Bax's other
| > works. Where should a Bax beginner start?
|
|
| Oh, my. Bax was a very prolific composer, and much of his output is
| appealing. Pointers may include:
|
| - Symphonies 1-3 and 6 (my recommendation is still Chandos/Thomson)
| - other tone poems, The Garden of Fand, The Happy Forest, November Woods
| - the splendid Winter Legends for Piano and Orchestra (Chandos)
| - the Spring Fire Symphony (not numbered) (Chandos/Handley)
| - the String Quartets (Naxos)
|
| The "best" recording of Tintagel that I know of is LSO/Barbirolli,
| coupled with RVW's "London Symphony" (EMI, British Composers).
Agreed, although I'd start with the symphonies first. In the wrong hands,
some of the tone poems can ramble at first hearing. David Lloyd-Jones is
very good, and I fully agree about starting with the earlier symphonies. In
addition, Steve might like to know that hearing Tintagel was my first
exposure to Bax, and I have been crazy about him ever since. The Barbirolli
is a special Tintagel. Now this is really magical music.
Rodger Whitlock
<hill...@vermontel.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:31:37 -0500, "Steve M." wrote:
>
> >Last night I went to go see the BU SO for the first time in a while (for
> >once I had a free night!). I saw--along with a sparkling Beethoven 7
> >conducted by Lukas Foss--Bax's tone poem Tintagel. I really, really enjoyed
> >the Tintagel, and having absolutely no previous experience with Bax, would
> >like some suggestions for recordings of both Tintagel, and Bax's other
> >works. Where should a Bax beginner start?
> Perhaps the best thing you could do is to cherish that experience in
> memory. The odds are pretty good that you will find no Bax enjoyable
> again - except relative to Delius, and that's akin to the 'pleasure'
> experienced when torture ceases.
Although I am a member of the pro-Bax and pro-Delius wings of
rmcr, I have to agree with this evaluation. I like these
composers in spite of their musical weaknesses, which are many.
Neither was a composer of the first rank, and their music seems
not to travel well -- at the least, it's hardly been taken up
outside of Britain. Go ahead, explore more Bax (cheap and pretty
good on Naxos), but don't be surprised or overly disappointed if
it doesn't inspire you to the same degree the concert did.
--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Ward Hardman
: Although I am a member of the pro-Bax and pro-Delius wings of
: rmcr, I have to agree with this evaluation. I like these
: composers in spite of their musical weaknesses, which are many.
: Neither was a composer of the first rank, and their music seems
: not to travel well -- at the least, it's hardly been taken up
: outside of Britain. Go ahead, explore more Bax (cheap and pretty
: good on Naxos), but don't be surprised or overly disappointed if
: it doesn't inspire you to the same degree the concert did.
Isn't there a magazine out there called "On Our Bax"? ;-)
I recall a High Fidelity review by Robert Charles Marsh about 30-35
years ago that said that not all composers are of the first rank,
giving Great Britain as an example. He put Delius at about the 3rd
rank and Bax in the 4th, IIRC. He also said that many countries have
composers all the way down to 10th rank, who still get plenty of
performances. (Make your own list of recent and current 10th rankers!)
If Bax had written more on the level of "Tintagel," he would have ranked
much higher.
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just simple
competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Lawrence Chalmers
w/ the Chandos/
Thomson recordings. I'm also impressed with the Naxos series so far as
theirs has gone.
I'm eagerly awaiting for no. 6, my favorite Bax
symphony on Naxos. Of his piano music I still remember the rca
recording of years ago by Whittemore and
Lowe but have yet to hear the more recent version on Chandos as well.
Barbirolli really shines with Tintagel. I'd start with the symphonies,
the tone poems, and then smaller scale works. He's written some
interesting sound track music (Oliver Twist). Regardless
of where he 'ranks' in the 'herarchy' I'd love to hear his symphonies
live in the USA in SF where I live. Probably not in the remainder of my
lifetime (15-20 years if I'm 'good')...
Thomas Muething
> In addition, Steve might like to know that hearing Tintagel was my first
> exposure to Bax
Same here (Thomson). Its purchase was part of my "if he's English, he
can't be all bad" policy when I started collecting classical music (LPs
then).
Thomas Muething
> (Make your own list of recent and current 10th rankers!)
Michael Daugherty
Michael Torke
John Taverner
GregK
What a bunch of condescending and meaningless crap. How noble and
generous
of you to "like these composers, in spite of their musical weaknesses,
which
are many." Why not expound a bit on these many weaknesses, - making
sure
to give an account at the same time of your own limitations that
condition
the evaluation? And this line about music that "seems not to travel
well"
as indictment of its creators' stature seems utterly banal. There are
legion of fine composers whose music wants for enthusiasm even in its
country of origin, besides not being played anywhere else as well.
It's not a lack of traveling capacity in the latter case that explains
the neglect, but as in the first, rather the general dullness and
parochial nature of human sensibility all over. Besides the banality
of its explanatory value in any case, with reference to Delius your
statement isn't even factually correct -whose music achieved
considerable popularity in Germany well before it was even known about
in Britain (not its place of origin to "travel from" either).
Thomas Muething
>
> Neither was a composer of the first rank, and their music seems
> not to travel well -- at the least, it's hardly been taken up
> outside of Britain.
Sorry, but that doesn't tell you anything. Few today would doubt the
importance of Ralph Vaughan Williams' music, yet his works are still not
being played in my country.
It's rather the chauvinism of certain program directors that shuts out
certain composers. And btw. the music of these two composers (Delius and
Bax) DID travel in earlier times.
Granted that Bax music may not be all that great in the structure
department, but in my view he more than makes up for it with his
splendid orchestrations and dramatic impetus (of the stronger works,
i.e.). He offers an interesting link between Romanticism and
Impressionism, picking up elements from both and fusing them, often very
convincingly.
He may not have been "first rank", but why shouldn't people allow to
enjoy his music regardless. Lou Harrison wasn't first rank, nor were
e.g. Malipiero, Alwyn, Respighi, D'Indy, Thomson, Raff, Reger. Why
shouldn't we explore their music still?
Ray Hall
| Ray Hall wrote:
|
| > In addition, Steve might like to know that hearing Tintagel was my first
| > exposure to Bax
|
|
| Same here (Thomson). Its purchase was part of my "if he's English, he
| can't be all bad" policy when I started collecting classical music (LPs
| then).
:)
Bob Lombard
<tmuethingBUGGE...@t-online.de> wrote:
>He may not have been "first rank", but why shouldn't people allow to
>enjoy his music regardless. Lou Harrison wasn't first rank, nor were
>e.g. Malipiero, Alwyn, Respighi, D'Indy, Thomson, Raff, Reger. Why
>shouldn't we explore their music still?
>
Hell, explore Bax and Delius all you want, there are lots of
recordings out there - nearly all British. Have a Lark while you're at
it.
bl
Rob Barnett
Symphony 6 - not the Munich SO version. Thomson is pretty good but not a
patch on Norman Del Mar on Lyrita - the only problem with the Lyrita is that
it is still only avaiable ion 2nd hand LP. However the Del Mar version has
never been excelled. We shall see how things go when Lloyd-Jones' version is
issued sometime very soon.
November Woods - a good place to go after Tintagel - his most powerful tone
poem - in my view better than Tintagel - get it in Lyrita CD - the version
conducted by Boult.
Piano Quintet - a symphony in all but name - very powerful stuff - as epic
and charged with beauty as the Chausson 'Concert'.
Winter Legends - on Chandos
Beware the Thomson symphonies. Some are good (5 and 6) others are too
infatuated with passing detail and in the case of syms 1 and 2 suffer from
nogested opaque sound. By the way Thomson's Bax sym 4 with the Ulster
Orchestra is superb and well worth getting though Lloyd-Jones' naxos runs
him close.
Rob
Christopher Webber
>Granted that Bax music may not be all that great in the structure
>department, but in my view he more than makes up for it with his
>splendid orchestrations and dramatic impetus (of the stronger works,
>i.e.). He offers an interesting link between Romanticism and
>Impressionism, picking up elements from both and fusing them, often
>very convincingly.
Whilst I'm with you 100% in your polite put down of the condescending
tosh about Bax (and Delius) emanating from two earlier posters, I'd take
issue with your point about structural weakness, in the symphonies or
major tone poems (or indeed the cream of the chamber and instrumental
works).
The more I get to know Bax's major works, the stronger their frameworks
appear to be. Like Delius (or indeed Rubbra) he doesn't use conventional
sonata forms often, which makes it difficult for us to orientate
ourselves at first. But in a good performance the musical logic is as
compelling as the content, the virtues of which I think you describe
very perceptively.
Example: I've just had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of the
new Bax 6 (Naxos) in a pre-release white label review copy for the Bax
website. There's much to look forward to here, Baxians, I can tell you
.... but most to the point, I was struck by just how cogently argued
this great symphony is. Not a weak or superfluous bar anywhere - a
structural masterwork as well as musically very impressive!
--
Christopher Webber, Blackheath, London, UK
http://www.zarzuela.net
"ZARZUELA!" The Spanish Music Site
Rodger Whitlock
> totototo...@mail.pacificcoast.invalid (Rodger Whitlock) wrote:
[stuff]
> What a bunch of condescending and meaningless crap.
Oh, shit, busted again! Time to get my brainwashing done again.
Ray Hall
news:9IIXjrK6...@nashwan.demon.co.uk...
Great to hear what is coming regarding the Bax 6th. Actually I agree with
you completely. The more I hear the symphonies of Bax, the more I am drawn
to them. I don't sense any particular structural weaknesses, rather, as I
listen more to them, they become more addictive, and not only that, but
their logic and form becomes more compelling. I love the first three
especially, and maybe I should give more time to the 4th and 5th.
Btw, thanks for reminding me of that lovely word 'tosh'. Wouldn't be
understood by many over here <g>
Ray Hall
And they don't have to be British either. There is lots of that stuff that
you Amurricans have produced, which we Raffian/Baxian/Delian lot are not too
condescending or stupid enough NOT to listen to.
Bout time you listened to more of your own music though, threw away some of
that war-horse dreck you listen to, and sit atop a hill listening to some
Raff. You will be surprised. Give those bears of yours a treat for once, and
an extra reason for living.
Thomas Muething
>
> Example: I've just had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of the
> new Bax 6 (Naxos) in a pre-release white label review copy for the Bax
> website. There's much to look forward to here, Baxians, I can tell you
> .... but most to the point, I was struck by just how cogently argued
> this great symphony is.
The 6th is one of my faves, for the same reason: it's a cogent symphonic
argument and doesn't meander even a little bit. Thomson made a great
case for it, with a superb sense of gravity that I think Lloyd-Jones
(based on his recordings so far) will find difficult to meet, and which
Bostock did not match by a long shot (though Del Mar comes close).
It annoys me how some reviewers have put down Thomson's achievements in
the Bax symphonies and tone poems especially. In the first two
symphonies he is better than Lloyd-Jones IMHO, the triumphant
restatement of the motto theme of the 1st symphony (about 2'10 in the
1st mvt.) still knocks me sideways in a way neither Lloyd-Jones nor
Fredman do.
Another chap here wrote that Thomson often droned too much over the
little details, which is partially true, but then there is so much
splendid detail to drone over. His "Winter Legends" is a beauty, though
of course I'd like to see rival versions there as well. The only Chandos
recording of Bax that really disappointed me was the Violin Concerto,
which contained so many flaws in the solo part that I had to look at the
cover repeatedly to make sure that Lydia Mordkovich was the player.
Lawrence Chalmers
then taken up by soft strngs is actually one of the finest musical
moments there are in his 6th.
Richard Adams
Steve....can you tell us who was conducting Tintagel????
Was it Lukas Foss? Who are the BU SO?
Rich
On Wed, 5 Feb 2003 09:31:37 -0500, "Steve M."
<smi...@spamblock.bu.edu> wrote:
>Last night I went to go see the BU SO for the first time in a while (for
>once I had a free night!). I saw--along with a sparkling Beethoven 7
>conducted by Lukas Foss--Bax's tone poem Tintagel. I really, really enjoyed
>the Tintagel, and having absolutely no previous experience with Bax, would
>like some suggestions for recordings of both Tintagel, and Bax's other
>works. Where should a Bax beginner start?
>
>Thanks!
>Steve Miran
>
Steve M.
they're spectacular. Foss conducted the Beethoven 7... the Tintagel and
Bartok viola concerto (with a BU prof, Michael Zaretsky on viola) were
conducted by the orchestra's principle conductor, David Hoose (whom I think
is also a composer?...)
Thanks for the great suggestions everyone! Hopefully I will be picking some
up tomorrow :-)
"Richard Adams" <r.r....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:2fd84v0cck6vo078r...@4ax.com...
Richard Adams
The whole issue of Bax's structures is very complicated. Like Chris
says, Bax's use of form is idiosyncratic but in carefully prepared and
disciplined performances, Bax's music holds together as well as that
of any of his British contemporaries including such giants as Elgar,
Vaughan Williams and Walton -- or non Brits such as Shostakovich,
Nielsen and Prokofiev. I use the example of Shostakovich because
I've always been struck by how "Baxian" his Fourth Symphony is.
Listen to it carefully. The structure of the last movement is very
close in form to the last movement of Bax's Sixth Symphony and the
epilogue of the Fourth is also reminiscent of the epilogue of Bax's
Sixth. I'm not accusing Shostakovich of copying
(as it's extremely unlikely Shostakovich ever heard the Bax 6th) but
just indicating that the two composers were taking very similar
approaches to musical form and sound at those points in their careers.
If David Lloyd-Jones Naxos series has done nothing else, it has at
least shown that all of Bax's symphonies are "cogently argued" when
directed with a "firm hand on the tiller" as he likes to say. Anyone
who thinks Bax's symphonies are flabby, aimless or muddled should have
a listen to D L-J's recordings of the First, Fourth, Fifth or the new
Sixth. My only complaint is that Lloyd-Jones often misses some of the
magic and poetry that other conductors like Thomson, Del Mar and
Handley are so great at conveying. Maybe that's the price you have to
pay to get such urgent performances but Handley's example would argue
that you can have both. His new Bax cycle for Chandos should provide
the proof.
I don't worry too much about accusations against Bax's structures as
the same has been said at one time or another against Elgar, Vaughan
Williams, Shostakovich, et.al. As the music of those composers
became more familiar, those prejudices faded and we acquired a better
understanding and appreciation of the workings of those great musical
minds. I believe the same is now happening with Bax. Let's hope so,
anyway.
Incidentally, I'm a devout Baxian and also American so the two are not
incompatible. In fact, anyone who believes Americans are chauvinistic
or condescending towards the music of Great Britain should remember
the advocacy of British music by such American conductors as Previn,
Slatkin, Zinman, Spano, Litton and even Leonard Bernstein. Sometimes
I think we're actually more British than the British!
richard r. adams
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/bax/Welcome.htm
Sir Arnold Bax Web Site
Alan Hayward
news:pke94v0u2nsb0djve...@4ax.com...
> Incidentally, I'm a devout Baxian and also American so the two are not
> incompatible. In fact, anyone who believes Americans are chauvinistic
> or condescending towards the music of Great Britain should remember
> the advocacy of British music by such American conductors as Previn,
> Slatkin, Zinman, Spano, Litton and even Leonard Bernstein. Sometimes
> I think we're actually more British than the British!
I heartily agree with your sentiments. There was a time when performances of
British music were stuck in a rut. Then Previn took up the Vaughan Williams
symphonies and some Walton and Britten back in the 60s and blew not so much
a breath of fresh air through the scores as a gale. He demolished the quite
ridiculous idea that only British musicians could perform British music.
One of the great disappointments of Leonard Slatkin's period in charge of
the BBCSO has been the absence of Bax and Rubbra in his programmes. I had
thought that both composers would have appealed to him. Of course this may
not be his fault. Ever since the days of William Glock, the likes of Bax and
Rubbra seem to have been excommunicated by the forces that control the BBC's
music output.
Christopher Webber
>One of the great disappointments of Leonard Slatkin's period in charge
>of the BBCSO has been the absence of Bax and Rubbra in his programmes.
>I had thought that both composers would have appealed to him. Of course
>this may not be his fault. Ever since the days of William Glock, the
>likes of Bax and Rubbra seem to have been excommunicated by the forces
>that control the BBC's music output.
Absolutely - especially when Slatkin's Chicago SO CD performance of "The
Garden of Fand" is so convincing and fresh.
Anybody out there - especially from outside Britain - who might like to
write to Nicholas Kenyon, Director of the Proms, to make this point?
Mr Kenyon, despite evidence to the contrary, still believes that nobody
in the wider world (or indeed in the UK itself) gives two hoots about
Bax, and it looks highly likely - not that anybody's giving anything
away - that there isn't going to be a single symphony performance in
this year's Proms to commemorate the 50th Anniversary of Bax's death.
Only Britain could do this!
His address is ...
Nicholas Kenyon,
Director, BBC Proms,
British Broadcasting Corporation,
Broadcasting House,
Portland Place,
London W1A 1AA