Savage Rites
Wm. Quentin
Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love this
recording. But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for lack of a
better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster, whatever
that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?
By the way, I haven't posted here in many years, and I'm glad to see
some familiar faces still keeping the usenet flame alive. Seems like
every other NG I used to read has descended into complete uselessness.
-Billy Q
Gerard
> For some time my choice recording for "The Rite of Spring" has been
> Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love
> this recording.
Same here. This was during a long time my favorite.
> But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for
> lack of a better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster,
> whatever
> that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any
> suggestions?
>
Maybe you could give some indications about the other recordings you've heard
(and found "not good enough").
Have you tried Gergiev?
Thornhill
The most "savage" without becoming a mess is Muti/Philadelphia.
Some EMI CD releases have overload distortions. The version Brilliant
Classics released is free of distortions.
Bob Harper
I've always considered C. Davis/RCO pretty savage, and wonderfully
played and recorded. Opinions?
Bob Harper
Gerard
Wonderfully played and recorded OK (but both his Petrouchka and Firebird with
the sam eorchestra were even better).
But savage? That's not how I remember it. I should have to listen again.
For now I would say: wonderfully controled.
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:8ajiok...@mid.individual.net:
Advance reports suggest Dudamel's new recording with his Venezuelan youth
orchestra might fit the bill for you. I haven't heard it yet.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Gerard
>
> Advance reports suggest Dudamel's new recording with his Venezuelan
> youth orchestra might fit the bill for you. I haven't heard it yet.
Thanks.
"Advance reports" are? Suggesting reports?
Is his recording the only one with such reports?
Heck51
> For some time my choice recording for "The Rite of Spring" has been
> Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love this
> recording. But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for lack of a
> better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster, whatever
> that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?>>
the Boulez/Clevleand is very excellent, one of my favorites - for more
violent, savage - try
Bernstein/NYPO 1958 or
Solti/CSO
notesetter
the trick on both counts.
O
<1369b7a6-afbe-4216...@i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
notesetter <notes...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ozawa/Chicago Symphony. More brilliant than savage, but for me it does
> the trick on both counts.
MTT/ Boston Symphony - an excellent performance, despite the fact the
accompanying Dutoit Petrouchka is rather tepid.
-Owen
http://www.amazon.com/Stravinsky-printemps-Spring-%C3%A9toiles-Petrouchk
a/dp/B0009ORGN6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1279579512&sr=1-4
GP49
>
> > Advance reports suggest Dudamel's new recording with his Venezuelan
> > youth orchestra might fit the bill for you. I haven't heard it yet.
On Jul 19, 12:10 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrik_no_spam_...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> Thanks.
> "Advance reports" are? Suggesting reports?
> Is his recording the only one with such reports?
Maybe his is the only recording backed in this manner by a big PR
machine.
There's a reason why Dudamel is so acclaimed in Holllllywood (gotta
say that with four or five "Ls").
Only partly joking...
Ward Hardman
> For some time my choice recording for "The Rite of Spring" has been
> Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love this
> recording. But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for lack of a
> better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster, whatever
> that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?
If you want a *really* savage performance, you need one that is
*savagely* PLAYED!
For truly raunchy playing, that will make you feel like you are in the
midst of a primeval tribal rite, nothing comes close to the playing of
the Paris Conservatoire Orchestra in the Salle Wagram on 2, 5, 6, and
11 November 1956, over half a century ago, under the baton of Pierre
Monteux!!!
I've just finished playing it, and it's a unique experience. The
Decca "Original Masters" 7-CD set devoted to Monteux has the "Rite
Stuff."
The notes state that it was NOT recorded in stereo, but it sounds like
stereo to me. I'm dubious about the notes because of some other
inaccuracies in this set, e.g. the label on the Rite/Petrouchka CD
says it's the LSO playing.
I also played about half of the 1954 performance of the "Rite" by the
RIAS SO Berlin, under Ferenc Fricsay, and it has some forceful
playing, but the sound there is definitely mono. It's not just the
forcefulness of the playing that counts ... Monteux brings a quality
of inexorability to the music, but it also has a kinetic feel that has
you swaying with the music.
The notes by Jean-Charles Hoffele state that Monteux, having made his
previous "Rite" with the BSO, insisted on using the Paris
Conservatoire (then under Cluytens) "convinced that their distinctive,
almost tart, sound would capture the asperity of Stravinsky's
writing." Hoffele goes on to claim that, "Logically, he went on the
following year to record "Petrouchka" (whose premiere he had also
given) with the same orchestra." HOWEVER, the notes following the
track listings and timings for "Petrouchka" say that it was "Recorded
in the Salle Wagram, Paris, 6, 7, 9 & 10 November 1956," i. e.
interleaved with the "Rite" sessions.
QUESTION: Stravinsky revised the final "Danse Sacrale" in 1943,
ostensibly to protect and extend his copyright. Who plays the revised
version (besides Igor himself, of course)? (There is a story that
when he was asked the rationale behind this revision, he replied
"Because I can no longer conduct the original!")
Apparently, corrections accreted after the original 1921 publication
of the score, resulting in a "1929 version" which still bore the
"1921" publication date:
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft967nb647;chunk.id=d0e2725;doc.view=print
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence,
just simple competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:b2ac3d23-0c7e-4a83-b482-8f59773006e5
@a4g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
And Bullwinkle only pronounced it with three.
Here's one review, which I termed as "advance" because I haven't heard it
yet:
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/classical/reviews/album-
gustavo-dudamel-rite-stravinskyrevueltas-deutsche-grammophon-1985615.html
or http://preview.tinyurl.com/duderite
Paul Goldstein
>
>For some time my choice recording for "The Rite of Spring" has been
>Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love this
>recording. But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for lack of a
>better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster, whatever
>that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?
The most exciting Rite I've ever heard was a live performance by Boulez and the
NYP in about 1972. I would dearly love to find an aircheck of that. It seemed
much more 'primitive' in the best sense than the superb Cleveland studio
recording.
You might try Muti/Philadelphia, meanwhile.
Allen
Allen
herman
> GP49 <gpoo...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters to be
> typed in news:b2ac3d23-0c7e-4a83-b482-8f59773006e5
> @a4g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
> > Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
>
> >> > Advance reports suggest Dudamel's new recording with his Venezuelan
> >> > youth orchestra might fit the bill for you. I haven't heard it yet.
>
> > On Jul 19, 12:10 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrik_no_spam_...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> Thanks.
> >> "Advance reports" are? Suggesting reports?
> >> Is his recording the only one with such reports?
>
> > Maybe his is the only recording backed in this manner by a big PR
> > machine.
> > There's a reason why Dudamel is so acclaimed in Holllllywood (gotta
> > say that with four or five "Ls").
>
> > Only partly joking...
>
> And Bullwinkle only pronounced it with three.
>
> Here's one review, which I termed as "advance" because I haven't heard it
> yet:
And this is the entire review, ladies and gentlemen: one sentence:
"Stravinsky's The Rite Of Spring has exactly the qualities of rhythm,
rebirth, youthful energy and pagan gaiety that might have been
specifically designed for Gustavo Dudamel's elebrated Simó*Bolívar
Youth Orchestra of Venezuela, and they don't disappoint in their
treatment of this landmark work."
Gerard
> GP49 <gpo...@gmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:b2ac3d23-0c7e-4a83-b482-8f59773006e5
> @a4g2000prm.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Matthew B. Tepper wrote:
> > >
> > > > Advance reports suggest Dudamel's new recording with his
> > > > Venezuelan youth orchestra might fit the bill for you. I
> > > > haven't heard it yet.
> >
> > On Jul 19, 12:10 pm, "Gerard" <ghendrik_no_spam_...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks.
> > > "Advance reports" are? Suggesting reports?
> > > Is his recording the only one with such reports?
> >
> >
> > Maybe his is the only recording backed in this manner by a big PR
> > machine.
> > There's a reason why Dudamel is so acclaimed in Holllllywood (gotta
> > say that with four or five "Ls").
> >
> > Only partly joking...
>
> And Bullwinkle only pronounced it with three.
>
> Here's one review, which I termed as "advance" because I haven't
> heard it yet:
>
You already said so, that you don't have heard it.
So what's the point of directing the attention to a recording you have *not*
heard?
Are you member of the promotion team?
Gerard
Thanks.
Here's another review:
http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12787
And another one:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/June10/Stravinsky_Dudamel_4778775.htm
"Not a life-changing Rite, but the Revueltas is a terrific filler. Great fun.
But if nobody has heard it ........
M forever
There's more! We also learn that the performance of The Rite is
"transgressive":
"It's paired here with the Mexican composer Silvestre Revueltas' Night
Of The Maya, which occupies similarly pagan territory, building to a
furious conclusion involving eleven percussionists improvising
enthusiastically. It's not as transgressive as The Rite Of Spring, but
there's an equivalent boldness about its realisation."
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sometimes I don't know which is worse - bad sports writing or bad
classical music reviews. Wagner fan
M forever
I had the original CD release which is badly distorted, so I bought
the EMI "double forte" release recently, and it is also free of
distortions.
While this is a very vivid and exciting, and also colorful
performance, I am not sure if I would really characterize it as
particularly "savage". When I relistened to it recently, I noticed
that the excitement seems to be generated more by the extreme "in your
face" engineering than by the actual playing. This also happens at the
cost of a lot of sonic detail. In many of the climactic passages, you
don't hear much of the middle voices and all the fine detail that is
there almost constantly. You just hear the foreground of the music and
something going in the background, but a lot of the music is totally
lost in order to deliver brass and timpani right "in your face". I
still kind of like this recording, but much less so than I used to.
Gerard
That's why Tepper could not hear it.
Gerard
>
> Sometimes I don't know which is worse - bad sports writing or bad
> classical music reviews. Wagner fan
What's the problem if you know it most of the time?
William Sommerwerck
> writing or bad classical music reviews.
The latter. They're more likely to cost you money.
Have you ever heard the Peter Schickele sketch in which the program notes
for the first movement of the BS5 ("...and he's off, with a four-note
theme... Would you call that a theme or a motive?" "I think it's a motive
which he builds into a theme." "Thanks for setting me straight, Bob.") are
delivered as if they were running sports commentary.
ivanmaxim
wrote:
No I'll have to get a copy - they are sometimes strikingly similar -
and cloying. Wagner fan
William Sommerwerck
>> notes for the first movement of the BS5 ("...and he's off, with a
four-note
>> theme... Would you call that a theme or a motive?" "I think it's a motive
>> which he builds into a theme." "Thanks for setting me straight, Bob.")
>> are delivered as if they were running sports commentary.
> No. I'll have to get a copy -- they are sometimes strikingly similar --
> and cloying.
It's on "P D Q Bach on the Air".
Bob Harper
Do. It's one of the most hilarious of the many hilarious things Schikele
has done. Just wait until you get to the 'shocked' tone of the
commentators when the oboe cadenza arrives.
Bob Harper
ivanmaxim
Sounds great - will get it!!!!! Wagner fan
O
<60497b85-fc79-4505...@w12g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
ivanmaxim <ivanm...@gmail.com> wrote:
There's a comedian in Boston named Steve Sweeney who does an act where
he compares a weekly radio broadcast of the rosary by the Bishop (which
used to happen weekly back in the old days) to a race track announcer:
<in similar stentorian tones:>
"Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee..." <short pause>
"And they're off! Coming around the first turn..."
"Holy Mary, Mother of God..."
-Owen
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
It's also fun to see done "live" -- the orchestra goes silent for a few
moments for station identification, the concertmaster comes out and does a
testimonial for his preferred brand of bows, etc. Schickele knows how to
spice things up so it's never exactly the same.
William Sommerwerck
> a few moments for station identification, the concertmaster
> comes out and does a testimonial for his preferred brand of
> bows, etc. Schickele knows how to spice things up so it's
> never exactly the same.
In the quad version, the commentators are seated at the rear.
I'm wondering where the BS5 for this came from. There's a horrendous
(intentional) gaffe -- was it in the source recording, or was the passage
custom-recorded and spliced in?
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:i27132$toh$1...@news.eternal-
september.org:
>> It's also fun to see done "live" -- the orchestra goes silent for a few
>> moments for station identification, the concertmaster comes out and does
>> a testimonial for his preferred brand of bows, etc. Schickele knows how
>> to spice things up so it's never exactly the same.
>
> In the quad version, the commentators are seated at the rear.
If you're talking about the SQ LP edition of "The Wurst of P.D.Q. Bach," have
you ever noticed that there's a little extra business in "Opera Whiz" where
Paul Henry Lung (Bill Macy) is explaining that he drives a cab?
> I'm wondering where the BS5 for this came from. There's a horrendous
> (intentional) gaffe -- was it in the source recording, or was the passage
> custom-recorded and spliced in?
--
J.Martin
> > Sometimes I don't know which is worse -- bad sports
> > writing or bad classical music reviews.
>
> The latter. They're more likely to cost you money.
>
Not necessarily. Most people don't place bets on classical recordings.
William Sommerwerck
> If you're talking about the SQ LP edition of "The Wurst of P.D.Q.
> Bach," have you ever noticed that there's a little extra business
> in "Opera Whiz" where Paul Henry Lung (Bill Macy) is explaining
> that he drives a cab?
No. I'll have to pull out the CD and compare/contrast.
For those reading this... Bill Macy is /not/ William H Macy. The latter uses
a middle initial to distinguish himself. And Bill Macy is dead, anyway. As
is Beatrice Arthur, and almost everyone who was on "Maude" (except Adrienne
Barbeau, I think).
martinonmaven
> For some time my choice recording for "The Rite of Spring" has been
> Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love this
> recording. But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for lack of a
> better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster, whatever
> that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?
>
> By the way, I haven't posted here in many years, and I'm glad to see
> some familiar faces still keeping the usenet flame alive. Seems like
> every other NG I used to read has descended into complete uselessness.
>
> -Billy Q
You seek the ultimate "savage 'Sacre'?" Go for the CSO/Martinon/
9-28-67 performance of the Revised Edition (1946), downloads of which
have been floating around on various websites (including this one, if
I'm not mistaken).
Gerard
>
> You seek the ultimate "savage 'Sacre'?" Go for the CSO/Martinon/
> 9-28-67 performance of the Revised Edition (1946), downloads of which
> have been floating around on various websites (including this one, if
> I'm not mistaken).
"This one" is a usenet newsgroup, not able to contain any "download".
Bob Harper
to* the said download? Your literalism becomes almost comic at times.
Bob Harper
Gerard
> On 7/21/10 10:22 AM, Gerard wrote:
> > martinonmaven wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > You seek the ultimate "savage 'Sacre'?" Go for the CSO/Martinon/
> > > 9-28-67 performance of the Revised Edition (1946), downloads of
> > > which have been floating around on various websites (including
> > > this one, if I'm not mistaken).
> >
> > "This one" is a usenet newsgroup, not able to contain any
> > "download".
> >
> >
> Is it so difficult, Gerard, to understand that the poster means *links
> to* the said download?
I don't think that he means so. It's just your assumption that he means so. Did
you ask him?
Does he really think that this is a website? Did you ask him?
ronwhit
>
> QUESTION: Stravinsky revised the final "Danse Sacrale" in 1943,
> ostensibly to protect and extend his copyright. Who plays the revised
> version (besides Igor himself, of course)? (There is a story that
> when he was asked the rationale behind this revision, he replied
> "Because I can no longer conduct the original!")
>
> --Ward Hardman
Steinberg/Pittsburgh and Ormandy/Philadelphia (both mono) play the
1943 revision of the Danse Sacrale.
Ron Whitaker
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
Bill Macy is alive, and was working as recently as three years ago when I
saw him in an episode of "My Name is Earl."
Bob Harper
useless. I give up.
Bob Harper
Gerard
Must be because you don't know about anything "the most casual observer".
Bob Harper
1) those who think poster 'martinonmaven' believed the download was
available here (in RMCR)
or
2) those who understood that he was referring the fact that links may
have been (were? I don't remember) posted here.
I'm voting 2).
Gerard
Meaning that you don't know "what seems obvious to the most casual observer".
Another thing: you wrote "I give up" and yet you continue, while it is obvious
to any casual observer what "I give up" means.
mark
> For some time my choice recording for "The Rite of Spring" has been
> Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love this
> recording. But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for lack of a
> better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster, whatever
> that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?
>
> By the way, I haven't posted here in many years, and I'm glad to see
> some familiar faces still keeping the usenet flame alive. Seems like
> every other NG I used to read has descended into complete uselessness.
>
> -Billy Q
Interesting.
At this point in my listening life, I don't find the Rite necessarily
- or particularly - a savage piece of music. Indeed, it sounds to me
like one of the great ROMANTIC ballets with the ghost of Rimsky-
Korsakov writ large over many of it's very colorful pages.
I know what you're getting at, but such "savage" performances miss
half the Rite boat for me. Maybe that's why my favorite Rite remains
Markevitch's stereo remake on EMI, which happens to be the Rite that I
imprinted on. Markevitch presents a well-balanced version of the
ballet, and I don't mean that in the pejorative sense of the word.
Testament's issue of the recording - coupled with his earlier mono
recording - sounds very good to my ears.
ivanmaxim
>
> - Show quoted text -
I vote 2. I thought that was obvious. Wagner fan
Ray Hall
Hear hear. Spot on. I was waiting for somebody to mention Markevitch. I
agree about the "savage" aspect also, whatever people really mean by
that. A good Rite is more awesome by portraying a certain sinister
aspect. It is all in the portrayal. Markevitch gets it - most others don't.
Am not sure I agree about the link with Rimsky (maybe there is but I
don't see it), or the Rite being Romantic in the usual sense. But there
is definitely a fairytale aspect to it, much like Firebird and Petrouchka.
As it happens I just received the Stravinsky/Stravinsky Sony box, dirt
cheap for 22 CDs. One evening I'll listen to what the composer does with
the score, but I doubt he'll better Markevitch.
Ray Hall, Taree
Gerard
Aha! I was waiting for you to do so!
It was my imprint version too, but I've heard more impressive ones since.
And compared to more modern recordings the sound is not very good.
>
> I agree about the "savage" aspect also, whatever people really mean by
> that. A good Rite is more awesome by portraying a certain sinister
> aspect. It is all in the portrayal. Markevitch gets it - most others
> don't.
>
> Am not sure I agree about the link with Rimsky (maybe there is but I
> don't see it), or the Rite being Romantic in the usual sense. But
> there
> is definitely a fairytale aspect to it, much like Firebird and
> Petrouchka.
Maybe. Not sure. I think it refers to something in reality (although more a kind
of reality in the past).
But that does not make it a "romantic ballet", like Mark wrote.
>
> As it happens I just received the Stravinsky/Stravinsky Sony box, dirt
> cheap for 22 CDs. One evening I'll listen to what the composer does
> with the score, but I doubt he'll better Markevitch.
>
"As we all know" Stravinsky's performance is far from 'savage', and it is more
ballet-like than many other performances.
mark
>
> Am not sure I agree about the link with Rimsky (maybe there is but I
> don't see it), or the Rite being Romantic in the usual sense. But there
> is definitely a fairytale aspect to it, much like Firebird and Petrouchka.
Stravinsky studied with NRK for three years. NRK's influence is
certainly apparent in Firebird and Petrouchka, and if you listen to
the Rite through the prism of Firebird and Petrouchka, I believe that
NRK's influence is there. Maybe not as obvious as in Firebird, but
still obvious, at least to my ears.
As far as the Rite being a Romantic ballet, I stick by my assertion.
William Sommerwerck
> Sony box, dirt cheap for 22 CDs. One evening I'll listen
> to what the composer does with the score, but I doubt
> he'll better Markevitch.
I was surprised when I heard it, expecting some major revelation.
Stravinsky's approach is "not unlike" that of most conductors, a relatively
"straight" performance (no pun intended). I'm not being ironic or sarcastic
when I say that, just because the work ends with a woman dancing herself to
death, doesn't mean that the interpretation needs to be wild or violent. But
I happen to /like/ such interpretations.
My favorite has long been the Fedoseev, which (for me) combines the
seemingly contradictory qualities of animal vigor and balletic-ness.
Unfortunately, it seems to be out of print.
The first performance I ever heard was, yes, Stokowski's, long before I
developed a proper interest in serious music. The main problem with it is
that some sections have been removed, and the remaining sections rearranged
to suit the Disney animators. I do not strongly object to his somewhat
romanticized, sharp-edges-rounded-off approach, as I feel the music can
tolerate it.
William Sommerwerck
> I stick by my assertion.
It's hardly Neo-Classical!
Just because it has jagged rhythms and odd harmonics, doesn't mean it's not
Romantic!
Gerard
And the other way around:
Just because it has jagged rhythms and odd harmonics, doesn't mean it is
Romantic.
I think it was mentioned to be *not* romantic. Which does not mean that
Stravinsky succeeded fully in preventing this music of having some romantic
elements.
Some people have discovered romantic elements in music by Berg and Webern; but
that does not make their music romantic either.
William Sommerwerck
as one of the last works in a long Romantic tradition.
Thornhill
> On Jul 19, 2:37 pm, Thornhill <seth.l...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 19, 1:10 pm, "Wm. Quentin" <wqm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > For some time my choice recording for "The Rite of Spring" has been
> > > Boulez with the Cleveland Orchestra (the old one, on Sony). I love this
> > > recording. But of late I've been in the mood for a more - for lack of a
> > > better word - "savage" recording. Louder, harsher, faster, whatever
> > > that word might mean to you, that's what I'm looking for. Any suggestions?
>
> > > By the way, I haven't posted here in many years, and I'm glad to see
> > > some familiar faces still keeping the usenet flame alive. Seems like
> > > every other NG I used to read has descended into complete uselessness.
>
> > > -Billy Q
>
>
> > Some EMI CD releases have overload distortions. The version Brilliant
> > Classics released is free of distortions.
>
> I had the original CD release which is badly distorted, so I bought
> the EMI "double forte" release recently, and it is also free of
> distortions.
> While this is a very vivid and exciting, and also colorful
> performance, I am not sure if I would really characterize it as
> particularly "savage". When I relistened to it recently, I noticed
> that the excitement seems to be generated more by the extreme "in your
> face" engineering than by the actual playing. This also happens at the
> cost of a lot of sonic detail. In many of the climactic passages, you
> don't hear much of the middle voices and all the fine detail that is
> there almost constantly. You just hear the foreground of the music and
> something going in the background, but a lot of the music is totally
> lost in order to deliver brass and timpani right "in your face". I
> still kind of like this recording, but much less so than I used to.
I agree that there is a kind of messiness to the performance (compared
to Boulez's x-ray version on CBS), but I think it adds to the
feverishness of the performances.
I don't think there is anything wrong with recorded sound aiding in
the feeling of a performance.
Gerard
> I'm using "Romantic" in a very broad sense. One can certainly view
> "Sacre" as one of the last works in a long Romantic tradition.
Why would one do do?
And it depends on that broadness - with a little effort Mozart fits in too.
But it's much easier to view the Sacre as a post-romantic work. And Stravinksy's
intentions (which I referred to when writing "I think it was mentioned to be
*not* romantic") also play a role, more important than the very broad sense
you're using.
MiNe 109
"Gerard" <g_no_spam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > I'm using "Romantic" in a very broad sense. One can certainly view
> > "Sacre" as one of the last works in a long Romantic tradition.
>
> Why would one do do?
> And it depends on that broadness - with a little effort Mozart fits in too.
E.T.A. Hoffmann thought so.
> But it's much easier to view the Sacre as a post-romantic work. And
> Stravinksy's
> intentions (which I referred to when writing "I think it was mentioned to be
> *not* romantic") also play a role, more important than the very broad sense
> you're using.
Why is ease of viewing the criterion?
Stephen
Gerard
I don't think that I understand your question rightly.
MiNe 109
"Gerard" <g_no_spam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your argument that Sacre is post-romantic is that it's easier to see it
as such.
This discussion is a useful illustration of the problems of such labels
as 'Romantic,' etc.
Stephen
martinonmaven
Option 2) would reflect my intended meaning more accurately than
Option 1).
Gerard
Nope.
If it has been intended by the composer to be so, and if it's generally accepted
and seen as such, it's only "making problems" if you want to see or define it
another way. For what reason?
If a composer definitely wanted to write post-romantic music and has succeeded
so, also according to many other people and to the people in his era, it's a
hard work to redefine "romantic" in such a way that that piece of music fits in.
It has no purpose also (unless someone only likes romantic music and wants to
force all other music he likes into that category - but it stays something very
artificial, and it does not convince at all).
>
> This discussion is a useful illustration of the problems of such
> labels as 'Romantic,' etc.
>
> Stephen
I don't think so.
"Redefining" the Sacre as romantic music is a rather artificial thing.
'Romantic" isn't only a label; it's also a period Stravinsky did not really
belong to.
MiNe 109
"Gerard" <g_no_spam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
For increasing one's understanding by viewing the work through another
paradigm.
> If a composer definitely wanted to write post-romantic music and has
> succeeded
> so, also according to many other people and to the people in his era, it's a
> hard work to redefine "romantic" in such a way that that piece of music fits
> in.
Then why was it so easy for the argument to be made? And composers can
be wrong. To prove it, I'll compose a piece of such monumental intent as
to make irrelevant all other music. Think I'll succeed?
> It has no purpose also (unless someone only likes romantic music and wants to
> force all other music he likes into that category - but it stays something
> very artificial, and it does not convince at all).
Unless one makes a case for it. For the Rite, think of Romantic traits
that might apply: exotic setting, chromaticism, folk-music origins, the
Rimsky scale, programatic, etc.
> > This discussion is a useful illustration of the problems of such
> > labels as 'Romantic,' etc.
> >
> > Stephen
>
> I don't think so.
Well-contradicted!
> "Redefining" the Sacre as romantic music is a rather artificial thing.
So is defining it as post-Romantic.
> 'Romantic" isn't only a label; it's also a period Stravinsky did not really
> belong to.
Nonsense. To start with, there's no such thing as a "Romantic period".
Did composers all get a memo at the beginning of the 20th Century?
Romantic: not just a label, but a period as well.
Stephen
Allen
Easter Overture, which to me sounds very much like it is something he
found in Mussorgsky's works while he was allegedly "improving" MM; and
Le Coq d'Or, which he composed after he started teaching IS--just who
was teaching whom? This will probably sound like total heresy, I know.
Allen
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote
[snip]
> The first performance I ever heard was, yes, Stokowski's, long before I
> developed a proper interest in serious music. The main problem with it is
> that some sections have been removed, and the remaining sections rearranged
> to suit the Disney animators. I do not strongly object to his somewhat
> romanticized, sharp-edges-rounded-off approach, as I feel the music can
> tolerate it.
Stokowski very much wanted to re-record the ballet (complete,
naturally) in his late years (he'd done it complete in Philadelphia
for Victor 78s in March 1930; there have been several CDs of it). When
he was to come to Chicago as a guest in early 1966 he wrote to people
at RCA and said he hoped he could record "Sacre" with the CSO (an
orchestra he especially admired), but they did nothing about it. (He
also wanted to record Prokofiev's Scythian Suite and Kodaly's Hary
Janos Suite. They were never recorded with him, either.) Then
Stokowski was to record "Sacre" for Decca in London around 1971/2, but
he had health problems and the sessions never took place. Sad. A major
loss.
Don Tait
William Sommerwerck
Don Tait
Maybe, maybe not. I would have liked to have heard a performance
substantially different from the one in "Fantasia" -- otherwise, what would
have been the point?
If you haven't heard Stokowski's "Swan of Tuonela", which was recorded but
never used, do so. It's on the (presumably out of print) deluxe DVD of
Fantasia. It is Stokowski at this absolute peak.
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
> > The first performance I ever heard was, yes, Stokowski's, long before I
> > developed a proper interest in serious music. The main problem with it is
> > that some sections have been removed, and the remaining sections
> rearranged
> > to suit the Disney animators. I do not strongly object to his somewhat
> > romanticized, sharp-edges-rounded-off approach, as I feel the music can
> > tolerate it.
>
> Stokowski very much wanted to re-record the ballet (complete,
> naturally) in his late years (he'd done it complete in Philadelphia
> for Victor 78s in March 1930; there have been several CDs of it). When
> he was to come to Chicago as a guest in early 1966 he wrote to people
> at RCA and said he hoped he could record "Sacre" with the CSO (an
> orchestra he especially admired), but they did nothing about it. (He
> also wanted to record Prokofiev's Scythian Suite and Kodaly's Hary
> Janos Suite. They were never recorded with him, either.) Then
> Stokowski was to record "Sacre" for Decca in London around 1971/2, but
> he had health problems and the sessions never took place. Sad. A major
> loss.
>
> Don Tait
>
> Maybe, maybe not. I would have liked to have heard a performance
> substantially different from the one in "Fantasia" -- otherwise, what would
> have been the point?
It would have been the complete ballet, not the cut version in
"Fantasia" that you cited and said you (plus others) find to be a
problem, and would therefore have been substantially different indeed.
Wouldn't it be good to hear him in modern stereo sound, doing the
entire work?
And Stokowski was always different, from one performance to the
next.
> If you haven't heard Stokowski's "Swan of Tuonela", which was recorded but
> never used, do so. It's on the (presumably out of print) deluxe DVD of
> Fantasia. It is Stokowski at this absolute peak.
No, I have not, but would love to. Stokowski's recordings of the
work are sublime.
Don Tait
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:730a85e4-614a-4678-ba93-
a8ff03...@c10g2000yqi.googlegroups.com:
And the cor anglais player, by the conductor's personal request, was Mitchell
Miller.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
William Sommerwerck
>>> recorded but never used, do so. It's on the (presumably out of
>>> print) deluxe DVD of Fantasia. It is Stokowski at this absolute
>>> peak.
>> No, I have not, but would love to. Stokowski's recordings of the
>> work are sublime.
> And the cor anglais player, by the conductor's personal request,
> was Mitchell Miller.
Thank God he didn't subvocalize during the performance.
mark
>
> As it happens I just received the Stravinsky/Stravinsky Sony box, dirt
> cheap for 22 CDs. One evening I'll listen to what the composer does with
> the score, but I doubt he'll better Markevitch.
>
I've looked at buying that as it's so cheap. I had the original 22-CD
set with the booklets but gave it to a friend who is a much bigger IS
fan than me when I received the IS Original Jackets as a promo from
Sony. That edition is missing Rake's Progress - which I can't stand as
music, though I love Alexander Young's singing. Maybe I should get the
el cheapo set. Hmm...
My second Rite of Spring recording was a two-fer Columbia LP set with
IS conducting. I bought this in high school, and I was struck even
back then with how much the Markevitch recording outclassed IS's in
every respect.
Ray Hall
I got the box from Amazon UK. Minimal packaging, and just a little
booklet in a few languages, with each CD in its paper case. I haven't
even listened to any yet - I have a large backlog to catch up on. A sure
sign that CDs are really very inexpensive these days.
I haven't yet met a Rite that outclasses Markevitch, and I have a fair few.
Ray Hall, Taree
Gerard
I don't thinkt that it is usefull.
>
> > If a composer definitely wanted to write post-romantic music and has
> > succeeded
> > so, also according to many other people and to the people in his
> > era, it's a hard work to redefine "romantic" in such a way that
> > that piece of music fits in.
>
> Then why was it so easy for the argument to be made? And composers can
> be wrong.
There's no reason at all to assume so (in this case).
Only if people here think that you it better (and of course, some do).
>
> To prove it, I'll compose a piece of such monumental intent
> as to make irrelevant all other music. Think I'll succeed?
To prove what exactly?
>
> > It has no purpose also (unless someone only likes romantic music
> > and wants to force all other music he likes into that category -
> > but it stays something very artificial, and it does not convince at
> > all).
>
> Unless one makes a case for it. For the Rite, think of Romantic traits
> that might apply: exotic setting, chromaticism, folk-music origins,
> the Rimsky scale, programatic, etc.
>
> > > This discussion is a useful illustration of the problems of such
> > > labels as 'Romantic,' etc.
> > >
> > > Stephen
> >
> > I don't think so.
>
> Well-contradicted!
>
> > "Redefining" the Sacre as romantic music is a rather artificial
> > thing.
>
> So is defining it as post-Romantic.
No.
>
> > 'Romantic" isn't only a label; it's also a period Stravinsky did
> > not really belong to.
>
> Nonsense. To start with, there's no such thing as a "Romantic period".
> Did composers all get a memo at the beginning of the 20th Century?
>
> Romantic: not just a label, but a period as well.
>
> Stephen
Sorry. Just nonsense, those last sentences.
MiNe 109
"Gerard" <g_no_spam_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Consider the opposite: refusing other viewpoints is useful for limiting
one's understanding.
> > > If a composer definitely wanted to write post-romantic music and has
> > > succeeded
> > > so, also according to many other people and to the people in his
> > > era, it's a hard work to redefine "romantic" in such a way that
> > > that piece of music fits in.
> >
> > Then why was it so easy for the argument to be made? And composers can
> > be wrong.
>
> There's no reason at all to assume so (in this case).
> Only if people here think that you it better (and of course, some do).
The Rite has Romantic qualities even if the work as a whole is
post-Romantic.
> > To prove it, I'll compose a piece of such monumental intent
> > as to make irrelevant all other music. Think I'll succeed?
>
> To prove what exactly?
The limits of intent.
> > > It has no purpose also (unless someone only likes romantic music
> > > and wants to force all other music he likes into that category -
> > > but it stays something very artificial, and it does not convince at
> > > all).
> >
> > Unless one makes a case for it. For the Rite, think of Romantic traits
> > that might apply: exotic setting, chromaticism, folk-music origins,
> > the Rimsky scale, programatic, etc.
I see you don't have anything to say about an actual case for the
argument.
> > > > This discussion is a useful illustration of the problems of such
> > > > labels as 'Romantic,' etc.
> > > >
> > > > Stephen
> > >
> > > I don't think so.
> >
> > Well-contradicted!
> >
> > > "Redefining" the Sacre as romantic music is a rather artificial
> > > thing.
> >
> > So is defining it as post-Romantic.
>
> No.
The provocative statement of an enfant terrible is organic?
> > > 'Romantic" isn't only a label; it's also a period Stravinsky did
> > > not really belong to.
> >
> > Nonsense. To start with, there's no such thing as a "Romantic period".
> > Did composers all get a memo at the beginning of the 20th Century?
> >
> > Romantic: not just a label, but a period as well.
> >
> > Stephen
>
> Sorry. Just nonsense, those last sentences.
If there's a "Romantic Period" it must begin and end. What are those
dates?
Stephen
William Sommerwerck
> What are those dates?
I don't know. Must it? Who decides? What are the criteria?
"The Four Seasons" could be considered Romantic works. Does that make
Vivaldi a Romantic composer?
Does Prokofiev's "Classical" symphony mark the end of the Classical era?
Does Hanson's "Romantic" symphony similarly terminate the Romantic era?
ivanmaxim
wrote:
Exactly right and it just proves that labels like "Romantic' and
"Classic" don't mean all that much Wagner Fan
MiNe 109
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > If there's a "Romantic Period" it must begin and end.
> > What are those dates?
>
> I don't know. Must it? Who decides? What are the criteria?
>
> "The Four Seasons" could be considered Romantic works. Does that make
> Vivaldi a Romantic composer?
According to "Vivaldi for Valentines," sure. :-)
> Does Prokofiev's "Classical" symphony mark the end of the Classical era?
> Does Hanson's "Romantic" symphony similarly terminate the Romantic era?
A twenty-three year epoch!
The labels, Classical, Romantic, etc can be useful but have limits. My
music history prof spent the first few weeks of his 19th Century course
demonstrating the fallibility of the terms.
Stephen
M forever
> On Jul 21, 11:23 pm, Ray Hall <raymond.ha...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > don't see it), or the Rite being Romantic in the usual sense. But there
> > is definitely a fairytale aspect to it, much like Firebird and Petrouchka.
>
> certainly apparent in Firebird and Petrouchka, and if you listen to
> the Rite through the prism of Firebird and Petrouchka, I believe that
> NRK's influence is there. Maybe not as obvious as in Firebird, but
> still obvious, at least to my ears.
There is definitely a connection there, but while with the Firebird,
it is very obvious, in Rite, it is already very remote. The Firebird
is heavily influenced by R-K, not only in the musical material, but
also in its colorful orchestration. Stravinsky employed more sonic
effects than R-K did and so made the music even more "exotic" than R-
K's own fairy tale operas. With Petrushka, IS developed the coloristic
effects even further and added a more complex rhythmical dimension to
the music, and by the time he arrived at Rite, the rhythmical
complexity and the instumental effects had become most of the musical
material in itself. So by the time of the Rite, the R-K influence is
very distant.
> As far as the Rite being a Romantic ballet, I stick by my assertion.
"Romantic" is a *very* general term but I don't think Rite can be
called "romantic" in any way. In fact, it is a conscious departure
from romantic musical ideas and ideals. Rhythm and color become
musical values in themselves rather than transporting any form of
"sentiment". IS often stressed this aspect when he talked about the
music.
For instance, in the (in)famous review of Karajan's first recording by
IS which many like to quote but which few have actually read, IS isn't
as negative about the recording as those who haven't read the review
but who like to quote his "tempo di hoochie-koochie" think, but there
is one general aspect, that of note lengths and colors, which IS
explicitly criticizes because he feels that Karajan approached the
music too much from the "romantic" performance tradition and that that
is contrary to what IS intended.
Of course, that is actually what makes the Karajan recording so
interesting, in its own way. He finds more color and mystery in the
music than most so while it is not really stylistically "correct"
according the the composer (and I think we can trust his judgment in
that respect LOL), it is still a musically quite intriguing
performance. However, Karajan definitely read the review because he
didn't touch the music for a number of years and the restudied it with
the BP and performed it quite often in the 70s before he made his
second recording - which was actually done in one single unedited
take! And that second recording is just as weighty, but much more
sharply edged and aggressive than the first one while it still has the
full palette of colors, so that is one of the recordings I would
recommend. It may not be particularly "savage" still, but it is
definitely pretty wild has a lot of impact.
M forever
I definitely agree with that. That "sinister" aspect, a certain
"inhuman"and "relentless" quality transported in the almost machine-
like structures of the music is very important, probably more
important and effective than frenetic and "savage" drum beating. That
in itself can be quite "exciting", but it can easily miss the "inner"
dimension of the music, the earthy, dark undercurrents.
ivanmaxim
It is when you're having sex to it! (!!!) Wagner fan
William Sommerwerck
>> think Rite can be called "romantic" in any way"
> It is when you're having sex to it! (!!!)
What do you expect from your (assumed) girlfriend at the very end of the
piece? Orgasm? Death? (The male orgasm has sometimes been called "the little
death".)
mark
> On Jul 22, 2:49 am, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
if you listen to
> > the Rite through the prism of Firebird and Petrouchka, I believe that
> > NRK's influence is there. Maybe not as obvious as in Firebird, but
> > still obvious, at least to my ears.
>
> There is definitely a connection there, but while with the Firebird,
> it is very obvious, in Rite, it is already very remote. The Firebird
> is heavily influenced by R-K, not only in the musical material, but
> also in its colorful orchestration. Stravinsky employed more sonic
> effects than R-K did and so made the music even more "exotic" than R-
> K's own fairy tale operas. With Petrushka, IS developed the coloristic
> effects even further and added a more complex rhythmical dimension to
> the music, and by the time he arrived at Rite, the rhythmical
> complexity and the instumental effects had become most of the musical
> material in itself. So by the time of the Rite, the R-K influence is
> very distant.
Whether it is very distant or slightly distant, it is still there. I
would say this - without having studied with NRK, I very much doubt
that the Rite would sound the way it does. I doubt it would be the
piece it is if IS hadn't penned those earlier, less-radical scores. I
hear NRK's influence in the Rite. You and others, not so much.
>
> > As far as the Rite being a Romantic ballet, I stick by my assertion.
>
> "Romantic" is a *very* general term but I don't think Rite can be
> called "romantic" in any way. In fact, it is a conscious departure
> from romantic musical ideas and ideals. Rhythm and color become
> musical values in themselves rather than transporting any form of
> "sentiment". IS often stressed this aspect when he talked about the
> music.
And I'm using the word "Romantic" in that general sense.
Whether or not IS stressed the belief that the rhythm and colors of
the Rite are musical and not sentimental vales, he was still writing a
ballet, which is an art form that has a very real aspect that lies
outside the music. Indeed, if one could strip away all human emotion
and sentiment from any ritual in the moment that ritual is performed -
be it a marriage ceremony, communion or the rituals of the Rite - the
fact remains that ritual itself has as its basis human sentiment and
emotion. Ergo, no matter what IS BELIEVED he was doing, his tying the
Rite to yet another "ritualistic" form (ballet) rather defeats his
unsentimental intent, does it not?
The bottom line is that the Rite is hardly absolute music. One doesn't
listen to the piece without knowing its basic program, does one?
> For instance, in the (in)famous review of Karajan's first recording by
> IS which many like to quote but which few have actually read, IS isn't
> as negative about the recording as those who haven't read the review
> but who like to quote his "tempo di hoochie-koochie" think, but there
> is one general aspect, that of note lengths and colors, which IS
> explicitly criticizes because he feels that Karajan approached the
> music too much from the "romantic" performance tradition and that that
> is contrary to what IS intended.
Yes, but there are many, many instances of musical compositions that
sound just fine and are quite valid even when they run quite contrary
to the composer's intentions. Messiah springs to mind (of course, one
then must ask exactly WHAT Handel's intentions were for the piece), or
Pachelbel's Canon or any other composition that has the musical spine
to stand up to a diverse approaches of every stripe. So, while HvK's
Rite I may not meet IS's stated preferences, it certainly has it's
appeal in ways that were possibly beyond IS's imagination.
BTW - I remember talking to an American composer whose opera was being
given its world premiere in Central City, Colorado. During the piano
rehearsals, he said to me that he always found the piano rehearsals
both frightening and exciting. Frightening, because he didn't know
whether what he had written was going to work for the performers.
Excited, because he felt that it was the performers and their
interpretation that put the finishing touches on his score. "Once I've
finished writing, my work is in their hands and I have to trust them,"
he said. "I have often been happily surprised at how an individual
performer can interpret something in a way that I had never thought
of, and how often I find their interpretation to be even more
compelling than what I had imagined possible." Interesting thoughts,
don't you think?
> Of course, that is actually what makes the Karajan recording so
> interesting, in its own way. He finds more color and mystery in the
> music than most so while it is not really stylistically "correct"
> according the the composer (and I think we can trust his judgment in
> that respect LOL), it is still a musically quite intriguing
> performance.
I agree entirely. And for what it's worth, no matter what IS said or
didn't say about HvK's Rite I, I think we can all agree that HvK
conducted the piece more expertly than did the composer himself in his
recording.
>However, Karajan definitely read the review because he
> didn't touch the music for a number of years and the restudied it with
> the BP and performed it quite often in the 70s before he made his
> second recording - which was actually done in one single unedited
> take!
Yes. David Hurwitz has pointed out that the tam-tam player just stops
playing after the double bar near the end of the piece. I wonder if
that was a mistake by the player or a piece of tinkering by HvK in the
percussion parts. I wonder if there are other miscues in the recording
that one would expect from doing only a single take.
>And that second recording is just as weighty, but much more
> sharply edged and aggressive than the first one while it still has the
> full palette of colors, so that is one of the recordings I would
> recommend. It may not be particularly "savage" still, but it is
> definitely pretty wild has a lot of impact.
Agreed, though to my ears, it isn't all that much different than the
first. Your description of the differences between the two is spot on.
When it comes to me deciding which HvK Rite I'm going to listen to,
I'm pretty much split between the two. I'd probably give the edge to
HvK II simply because it's coupled with his Prokofieff 5, which is a
recording I listen to fairly often.
William Sommerwerck
given its world premiere in Central City, Colorado. During the piano
rehearsals, he said to me that he always found the piano rehearsals
both frightening and exciting. Frightening, because he didn't know
whether what he had written was going to work for the performers.
Excited, because he felt that it was the performers and their
interpretation that put the finishing touches on his score. "Once I've
finished writing, my work is in their hands and I have to trust them,"
he said. "I have often been happily surprised at how an individual
performer can interpret something in a way that I had never thought
of, and how often I find their interpretation to be even more
compelling than what I had imagined possible." Interesting thoughts,
don't you think?
One does not think of Stravinsky as being that sort of composer.
mark
Heck51
> Bernstein/NYPO 1958 or
> Solti/CSO
I should also add Mehta/LAPO from the 60s - a very excellent, savage
one, brilliantly recorded...
Mehta/NYPO is good too - Zubin has this piece down...
boombox
How about the one with the VPO from Salzburg?
mark
Which begs the question: what conductor who has recorded the Rite
DOESN'T have it down?
mark
Or, should that have been "which conductor?"
Heck51
> Which begs the question: what conductor who has recorded the Rite
> DOESN'T have it down?>>
Ozawa...there are parts of it that he just doesn't get...he has to
follow the orchestra thru those parts. I've heard this from members of
both the Chicago SO and the Boston SO, on separate occasions..
Bob Harper
Ozawa), or perhaps in something I read elsewhere, Perlman mentions
having to point out to Ozawa that a particular section of the work was a
Viennese waltz.
Bob Harper
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:xWt2o.411934$7n7.160183@en-nntp-
14.dc1.easynews.com:
Surely not the Carinthian folk song, which is in 3/4? I would assume that
Ozawa was aware of the Bach chorale, however.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
***** War is Peace **** Freedom is Slavery **** Fox is News *****
Gerard
Is this to indicate that Ozawa was incompetent (in your opinion)?
I've seen several films with rehearsals during which both conductor and soloist
are pointing out things to each other, without exception resulting in a better
understanding of each other and of what the other wanted to emphase and in a
better performance. And always without any suggestion that the other was
incompetent.
Bob Harper
> Bob Harper wrote:
>> On 7/23/10 7:59 PM, Heck51 wrote:
>>> On Jul 23, 10:53 pm, mark<markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Which begs the question: what conductor who has recorded the Rite
>>>> DOESN'T have it down?>>
>>>
>>> Ozawa...there are parts of it that he just doesn't get...he has to
>>> follow the orchestra thru those parts. I've heard this from members
>>> of both the Chicago SO and the Boston SO, on separate occasions..
>>>
>> In the notes to the Perlman recording of the Berg Concerto (conducted
>> by Ozawa), or perhaps in something I read elsewhere, Perlman mentions
>> having to point out to Ozawa that a particular section of the work
>> was a Viennese waltz.
>>
>> Bob Harper
>
> Is this to indicate that Ozawa was incompetent (in your opinion)?
No, just that he didn't understand something. I leave it to others to
decide whether that indicates incompetence or simply unfamiliarity.
Bob Harper
William Sommerwerck
> No, just that he didn't understand something. I leave it to others to
> decide whether that indicates incompetence or simply unfamiliarity.
Not recognizing a waltz or chorale might indicate a lack of familiarity --
but considering how long Ozawa has been conducting, it comes closer to
incompetence. Anyone with a basic familiarity with Western music should
recognize these.
One might expect this from a non-European musician, but it also occurs with
musicians of European extraction. I don't remember the name of Stereophile's
"house" pianist, but some years back he did a Brahms piece with a section
where Brahms "lapses" into his belovéd Gypsy music. The pianist just didn't
get it. He played it "blankly", neither (apparently) recognizing it, or
knowing that he was supposed to play it in a particular style not like that
of the rest of the piece.
Gerard
> > > Is this to indicate that Ozawa was incompetent (in your opinion)?
>
> > No, just that he didn't understand something. I leave it to others
> > to decide whether that indicates incompetence or simply
> > unfamiliarity.
>
> Not recognizing a waltz or chorale might indicate a lack of
> familiarity -- but considering how long Ozawa has been conducting, it
> comes closer to incompetence. Anyone with a basic familiarity with
> Western music should recognize these.
The way Bob wrote this ("point out to Ozawa that a particular section of the
work was a
Viennese waltz") only mentions "pointing out" - this could mean that Perlman
wanted to _emphasize_ that aspect of that section, while Ozawa did not do so (or
not enough - according to what Perlman wanted). It does *not* say that Ozawa did
not know or recognize it.
William Sommerwerck
> section of the work was a Viennese waltz") only mentions
> "pointing out" - this could mean that Perlman wanted to
> _emphasize_ that aspect of that section, while Ozawa did not
> do so (or not enough - according to what Perlman wanted).
> It does *not* say that Ozawa did not know or recognize it.
Perhaps, but that isn't the way I would interpret the intent of "pointing
out".
Gerard
OK. But it is very well a possibility, because musicians are "poiting out" (like
saying how they see it or want it) things the whole day.
martinonmaven
with the September '68 CSO/Martinon "Sacre" I alluded to in my first e-
mail? If so, I would love to compare notes in this forum. For what
it's worth, Adolph Herseth has stated on more than one occastion
(including an after-concert conversation with me a few years back)
that Martinon conducted the most exciting "Sacre" in his experience
during one of the CSO's regular Carnegie Hall visits, ca. 1966. I
forgot to ask him how that performance would compare with 9./68, the
final work played on the Orchestra's 1967-68 season in O. Hall and
which WFMT captured in fabulous sound.
Heck51
I have a copy of the 9/28/67 performance, it is very fine. live
performance, so the recorded sound is not ideal, but it is still quite
good...
M forever
Harper said "having to point out" and the "having to" part in this
context clearly means that he "had to" point out something because
Ozawa did not know it. I know that English is not your first language
and I understand things may not always be clear to you because it is
not mine either, but in this context, the meaning is very clear and
unambiguous.
Here is some more detail from snother source:
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/music/other_stories/documents/02156380.htm
Gerard
> On Jul 24, 9:45 am, "Gerard" <g_no_spam_hendrik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > William Sommerwerck wrote:
> > > > The way Bob wrote this ("point out to Ozawa that a particular
> > > > section of the work was a Viennese waltz") only mentions
> > > > "pointing out" - this could mean that Perlman wanted to
> > > > _emphasize_ that aspect of that section, while Ozawa did not
> > > > do so (or not enough - according to what Perlman wanted).
> > > > It does *not* say that Ozawa did not know or recognize it.
> >
> > > Perhaps, but that isn't the way I would interpret the intent of
> > > "pointing out".
> >
> > OK. But it is very well a possibility, because musicians are
> > "poiting out" (like saying how they see it or want it) things the
> > whole day.
>
> Harper said "having to point out" and the "having to" part in this
> context clearly means that he "had to" point out something because
> Ozawa did not know it.
He was not very sure about the whole thing (see "perhaps in something I read
elsewhere"). His "having to" very possibly deserved some grain of salt.
>
> I know that English is not your first language
> and I understand things may not always be clear to you because it is
> not mine either, but in this context, the meaning is very clear and
> unambiguous.
>
> Here is some more detail from snother source:
> http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/music/other_stories/documents/02156380.htm
But this is really some source.
As far as I remember that New Year's concert, Ozawa didn't do a bad job. But a
waltz probably is not his thing.
I wonder if other conductors wouldn't have recognized that section as a waltz as
well.
Such stories have been told here before - like about Solti having problems with
counting.
Maybe many conductors have experienced such embarassing moments.