BBC: Does classical music make babies smarter?
Premise Checker
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4558507.stm
Published: 2005/05/19 13:51:29 GMT
By Denise Winterman
BBC News Magazine
As well as classical CDs and DVDs for very young children, this week
sees the launch of a programme of concerts for babies - including
those in utero.
Does playing classical music to babies make a difference? Opinion is
divided; but many experts think that it may stimulate the brain in a
way that helps educational and emotional development.
It's known as the Mozart Effect, a theory which is credited with
boosting IQ, improving health, strengthening family ties and even
producing the occasional child prodigy.
Numerous studies conclude that playing music to babies in the womb and
in the early years helps build the neural bridges along which thoughts
and information travel. And research suggests it can stimulate the
brain's alpha waves, creating a feeling of calm; a recent study of
premature infants found that they were soothed by the music.
In Florida, all state-funded pre-schools are required to play
classical music by law, and many US hospitals give classical CDs to
new mums.
In the UK, many parents have also embraced the theory, with Classic
FM's Music for Babies CD enjoying several weeks at the top of the
classical charts earlier this year.
Baby proms
And this week Sound Beginnings, a series of concerts aimed at the very
young, begins in Hampshire. It's the brainchild of Peter and Juliet
Kindersley, who founded the Dorling Kindersley publishing empire. Both
are strong believers in the power of classical music.
"Just as it's vitally important to eat good-quality food right from
the start, so we are deeply affected by the music we hear from a very
early age, even in the womb," Peter Kindersley says.
Sound Beginnings - and a planned "baby prom" next year - came about as
babies and toddlers are rarely welcome in concert halls.
Professor Paul Robertson, a leading expert in the field, says it's
important the best music is made available to babies at the earliest
possible stage of their growth.
"There is compelling scientific evidence that the music we hear at the
earliest ages significantly affects the way our neurological pathways
are laid down during development."
Chill out
Beanbags will be provided to make the setting more relaxed and the
pieces - including compositions by Mozart, Schumann and Ravel - have
been selected to benefit the wellbeing of babies, toddlers and
parents.
It has also been geared towards pregnant women, as a foetus responds
to sound from about 24 weeks and learns familiar noises it will
recognise after birth, such as music its parents have listened to
repeatedly.
Violinist Paul Robertson, the presenter of Channel 4's Music and the
Mind, and the acclaimed Russian concert pianist Mikhail Kazakevich
will present the concerts, the first of which will be held at the
Newbury Spring Festival in Hampshire on Thursday.
Sound Beginnings will then travel to the London Symphony Orchestra's
St Luke's venue next month and tour the country later in the year. A
symposia, bringing together the latest scientific research into the
effects of music on development and wellbeing, is also planned for
June.
jrs...@aol.com
Premise Checker wrote:
>
> Beanbags will be provided to make the setting more relaxed and
the
> pieces - including compositions by Mozart, Schumann and Ravel -
have
> been selected to benefit the wellbeing of babies, toddlers and
> parents.
>
>
This raises an important questions: Had Boulez had provided New Yorkers
with beanbags, instead of making them sit on rugs, would he have lasted
longer at the Philharmonic?
--Jeff
jrs...@aol.com
Premise Checker wrote:
>
> Beanbags will be provided to make the setting more relaxed and
the
> pieces - including compositions by Mozart, Schumann and Ravel -
have
> been selected to benefit the wellbeing of babies, toddlers and
> parents.
>
This raises an important question: Had Boulez provided beanbags,
instead of making New Yorkers sit on rugs, would he have lasted longer
at the Philharmonic?
--Jeff
Matthew B. Tepper
journalists dumber.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Stephen Worth
Premise Checker <che...@panix.com> wrote:
> Does playing classical music to babies make a difference? Opinion is
> divided; but many experts think that it may stimulate the brain in a
> way that helps educational and emotional development.
Penn & Teller did a bit on this in their Showtime series aptly titled
"Bullshit". They interviewed the professor who did the original study,
and he said that his original study measured a slight increase in
intelligence for only a minute or two after listening to music. After
that short period of time, the subjects went back to their normal
scores. And none of his test subjects were babies... They were all
adults. The whole concept of fetuses getting smarter from listening to
Mozart is urban legend.
See ya
Steve
--
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In article <Pine.NEB.4.63.05...@panix3.panix.com>,
> Premise Checker <che...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> > Does playing classical music to babies make a difference? Opinion is
> > divided; but many experts think that it may stimulate the brain in a
> > way that helps educational and emotional development.
>
> Penn & Teller did a bit on this in their Showtime series aptly titled
> "Bullshit". They interviewed the professor who did the original study,
> and he said that his original study measured a slight increase in
> intelligence for only a minute or two after listening to music. After
> that short period of time, the subjects went back to their normal
> scores. And none of his test subjects were babies... They were all
> adults. The whole concept of fetuses getting smarter from listening to
> Mozart is urban legend.
Have they ever explained how they measure a momentary IQ change?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Prai Jei
<Pine.NEB.4.63.05...@panix3.panix.com>:
> Does classical music make babies smarter?
> It's known as the Mozart Effect, a theory which is credited with
> boosting IQ, improving health, strengthening family ties and even
> producing the occasional child prodigy.
It's the other way round. I had the boosted IQ and was a child prodigy, so
naturally I developed an interest in classical music.
--
A couple of questions. How do I stop the wires short-circuiting, and what's
this nylon washer for?
Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply
bpnj...@yahoo.com
"Bullshit". They interviewed the professor who did the original study,
and he said that his original study measured a slight increase in
intelligence for only a minute or two after listening to music. After
that short period of time, the subjects went back to their normal
scores. And none of his test subjects were babies... They were all
adults. The whole concept of fetuses getting smarter from listening to
Mozart is urban legend.
See ya
Steve <<
Not all urban legend - some people have actually done real longer-term
studies; please don't ask me to enumerate them right now.
On a parallel track, there is quite a bit of evidence, from many
quarters, that positive *aural* stimulation, such as being read to,
being sung to and hearing music can help young children's neural
connections to develop more fully and enable them to become better
communicators, both in written and oral form. This goes alongside
reading as being a key elemnt for children to get off on the right
foot. If my own son is any indication, having the benefit of all of
these things hasn't hurt him a bit - he is an avid reader of advanced
books and loves serious music as well as folk music (he enjoys it as
many people his age enjoy pop stuff, and this energetic boy can listen
happily to symphonies and string quartets for hours, and appreciate the
musicianship and moods, if not yet the deeper adult emotions). He also
plays the piano like he was born to it, and is now picking up the flute
and a few other devices. He still has a magnificant sense of humor,
loves physical activity and creating things using Legos and any number
of other materials. He's just a regular kid - who got some good
stimulation as a baby and toddler.
This type preparation apparently also better enables mathematical and
analytical function too.
Watching fast-action TV (even so-called "educational" TV) and careering
through video games, on the other hand, in place of stimulation that
encourages patience and deeper consideration (like reading and music),
seems to develop a shallower sense of communication and understanding.
Plenty of studies done on that topic. Not that there isn't a place for
this activity, but it needs to be secondary after the far more
nourishing lingustic and musical pursuits, at least if you want to
raise children who will be considerate, patient, and thinking. We
watch some TV, but it is highly selective, and we lightly analyze what
we watch.
And frankly, whether or not serious music makes kids smarter in the
short run, isn't far better to get them hooked on it than any number of
other crass and inappropriate pursuits available these days? If they
learn to appreciate the best and most rewarding things that life has to
offer, they are much less likely to head toward the crap as adults.
Bruce Jensen
Stephen Worth
<bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not all urban legend - some people have actually done real longer-term
> studies; please don't ask me to enumerate them right now.
You should look for that particular episode of Bullshit. It covers just
about everything you mention in your post.
bpnjensen
just
about everything you mention in your post. <<
I seriously doubt it. There are some rather substantial books written
by respected researchers that I have seen, and in some cases read, the
contents of which cannot be covered and/or refuted by 50 or so minutes
of even high-quality TV. Just remember, Penn & Teller are also in the
*entertainment* industry, not the science-is-good-for-your-brain
industry. Having said this, I would not mind seeing the episode (a
little TV once in awhile is good to keep the BS-O-Meter in tune). I've
sene a couple of their shows - not bad, but not the full-coverage
reporting that they like to claim it is.
I also know a lot of kids personally who have grown up on TV, have
parents who do not given them substantial positive stimuli, do poorly
in school, and don't much give a damn about anything except videogames.
My wife tries to help them every day in her job - but she has a hard
time overcoming poor parenting. Pretty close matches for what the
books discuss. What do your experts the Las Vegas magicians have to
say about that?
Bruce Jensen
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:428E22...@worldnet.att.net:
Sure. The subject picks up a newspaper, the technicians put some Mozart CD
on at normal volume, the subject reads an article by the journalist and
throws it down, shouting, "This is bullshit!"
Later on, the technicians put on some rap CD and the subject reads the
article again, this time believing every word.
Matthew Fields
>
>"Bullshit". They interviewed the professor who did the original study,
>and he said that his original study measured a slight increase in
>intelligence for only a minute or two after listening to music. After
>that short period of time, the subjects went back to their normal
>scores. And none of his test subjects were babies... They were all
>adults. The whole concept of fetuses getting smarter from listening to
>Mozart is urban legend.
>
>See ya
>Steve <<
>
>Not all urban legend - some people have actually done real longer-term
>studies; please don't ask me to enumerate them right now.
Enumerate 'em right now.
It's an urban legend.
>On a parallel track, there is quite a bit of evidence, from many
>quarters, that positive *aural* stimulation, such as being read to,
>being sung to and hearing music can help young children's neural
>connections to develop more fully and enable them to become better
>communicators, both in written and oral form.
Classical music is not parenting.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
bpnjensen
Mozart CD
on at normal volume, the subject reads an article by the journalist and
throws it down, shouting, "This is bullshit!"
Later on, the technicians put on some rap CD and the subject reads the
article again, this time believing every word. <<
ROTFLMAO!!!
Perfect!
Bruce Jensen
Matthew Fields
bpnjensen <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>You should look for that particular episode of Bullshit. It covers
>just
>about everything you mention in your post. <<
>
>I seriously doubt it. There are some rather substantial books written
>by respected researchers that I have seen, and in some cases read, the
>contents of which cannot be covered and/or refuted by 50 or so minutes
>of even high-quality TV.
There are even more substantial books by widely respected astrologers
and prophets, the sum total of which can be refuted in about 2 minutes.
> Just remember, Penn & Teller are also in the
>*entertainment* industry, not the science-is-good-for-your-brain
>industry.
I think you should say that to their faces.
> Having said this, I would not mind seeing the episode (a
>little TV once in awhile is good to keep the BS-O-Meter in tune). I've
>sene a couple of their shows - not bad, but not the full-coverage
>reporting that they like to claim it is.
>
>I also know a lot of kids personally who have grown up on TV, have
>parents who do not given them substantial positive stimuli, do poorly
>in school, and don't much give a damn about anything except videogames.
> My wife tries to help them every day in her job - but she has a hard
>time overcoming poor parenting. Pretty close matches for what the
>books discuss. What do your experts the Las Vegas magicians have to
>say about that?
I say that the "Mozart Effect" is an urban legend and has nothing
to do with what is currently called ADD.
bpnj...@yahoo.com
>>Enumerate 'em right now. <<
I can't, I'm not at home where they reside. Maybe later.
>>It's an urban legend. <<
OK, you're the expert (you and Penn and Teller). The so-called Mozart
Effect may be - but the other things I said have considerable basis in
research.
>>Classical music is not parenting. <<
Listening to it, making it and talking about it with your kids *is.*
Parenting is a combination of thousands of things, and whatever you do
with, to, or in the presence of your kids is parenting. It is
sometimes what you do not do as well, and denying them good experiences
in favor of mindless trash, whether by accident or design, or for
convenience's sake, is certainly a form of parenting.
Bruce Jensen
bpnj...@yahoo.com
>There are even more substantial books by widely respected astrologers
and prophets, the sum total of which can be refuted in about 2 minutes.
<
and
>I think you should say that to their faces. <
and
>I say that the "Mozart Effect" is an urban legend and has nothing
to do with what is currently called ADD. <
Well, you certainly put me ion my place.
Bruce Jensen
Stephen Worth
> I also know a lot of kids personally who have grown up on TV, have
> parents who do not given them substantial positive stimuli, do poorly
> in school, and don't much give a damn about anything except videogames.
> My wife tries to help them every day in her job - but she has a hard
> time overcoming poor parenting. Pretty close matches for what the
> books discuss. What do your experts the Las Vegas magicians have to
> say about that?
They say that the problem is poor parenting, not whether or not they
heard Mozart in the womb. The title of the Penn & Teller episode is
Baby Bullshit. It's not as good as the episodes on PETA and
Environmental Hysteria, but it's still pretty good.
Raving Loonie
> In article <1116614014....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
A long time ago, I remember hearing something about 'depressed' people
listening to Bach and/or Baroque music.
> I say that the "Mozart Effect" is an urban legend and has nothing
> to do with what is currently called ADD.
"Misery loves company". Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
RL
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116614014....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> bpnjensen <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I also know a lot of kids personally who have grown up on TV, have
> > parents who do not given them substantial positive stimuli, do
poorly
> > in school, and don't much give a damn about anything except
videogames.
> > My wife tries to help them every day in her job - but she has a
hard
> > time overcoming poor parenting. Pretty close matches for what the
> > books discuss. What do your experts the Las Vegas magicians have
to
> > say about that?
>
> They say that the problem is poor parenting, not whether or not they
> heard Mozart in the womb. The title of the Penn & Teller episode is
> Baby Bullshit. It's not as good as the episodes on PETA and
> Environmental Hysteria, but it's still pretty good.
What were the points about PETA and environmentalism?
J
John Harrington
Incidentally, I played music to my first child while she was in utero,
not because I thought it would make her smarter, but I thought it
couldn't hurt and might increase the likelihood she would develop
interest/ability in music. I didn't even know at the time that this
was a popular fad, but what gave me the idea was that baby books we
read at the time suggested reading/talking to the fetus.
I later learned that the inside of the womb is so LOUD that my daughter
probably heard nothing, and, as it happens, I think she's less
musically inclined than my second daughter, although it's too early to
tell for sure.
J
Stephen Worth
<bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> OK, you're the expert (you and Penn and Teller). The so-called Mozart
> Effect may be - but the other things I said have considerable basis in
> research.
I think you just don't know much about Penn & Teller. They aren't just
Las Vegas magicians. They, along with James Randi, are at the forefront
of applying rational thought and the scientific method to debunking
commonly believed snake oil. They know what they are doing.
Everyone agrees that good parenting allows babies to achieve their
maximum potential. But we aren't talking about good parenting. The
thing we are discussing is whether listening to classical music makes
babies smarter. If you take all of the studies done on the subject and
average their results, you come up with a wash.
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What were the points about PETA and environmentalism?
You have to see the shows... they were brilliant. They have them at
Blockbuster.
Matthew Fields
Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Matthew Fields wrote:
>> In article <1116614014....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>A long time ago, I remember hearing something about 'depressed' people
>listening to Bach and/or Baroque music.
>
>> I say that the "Mozart Effect" is an urban legend and has nothing
>> to do with what is currently called ADD.
>
>"Misery loves company".
Anthropomorphism.
> Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
No.
>
>RL
Nightingale
> Matthew Fields wrote:
>
>>In article <1116614014....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
> A long time ago, I remember hearing something about 'depressed' people
> listening to Bach and/or Baroque music.
>
>
It helps almost as much as antidepressants ;-)
bpnjensen
heard Mozart in the womb. The title of the Penn & Teller episode is
Baby Bullshit. It's not as good as the episodes on PETA and
Environmental Hysteria, but it's still pretty good. <<
Looks like we're in agreement after all!
I just happen to believe that sharing quality stuff with your kid
(including singing, reading and classical music) is part of good
parenting.
Bruce Jensen
Raving Loonie
> In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Matthew Fields wrote:
> >"Misery loves company".
>
> Anthropomorphism.
>
> > Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
>
> No.
Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
RL
John Harrington
bpnjensen wrote:
> ...sharing quality stuff with your kid
> (including singing, reading and classical music) is part of good
> parenting.
Hear hear.
J
bpnjensen
maximum potential. But we aren't talking about good parenting. The
thing we are discussing is whether listening to classical music makes
babies smarter. If you take all of the studies done on the subject and
average their results, you come up with a wash. <<
Probably correct, as far as it goes -
Just to reiterate (or perhaps to be redundant), I will insist that
sharing classical music with your children (along with reading and
music-making) is good quality parenting, and will tend to make them
seek out higher forms of music and knowledge;
...and I will add that curiosity about the best and highest is an
expression of intelligence. The Mozart Effect could well be imaginary,
but the lifelong love of learning instilled by early and frequent
exposure to quality art and literature and science gives your child an
intellectual advantage *of some kind* that others will not have.
Bruce Jensen
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116615436....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > OK, you're the expert (you and Penn and Teller). The so-called
Mozart
> > Effect may be - but the other things I said have considerable basis
in
> > research.
>
> I think you just don't know much about Penn & Teller. They aren't
just
> Las Vegas magicians. They, along with James Randi, are at the
forefront
> of applying rational thought and the scientific method to debunking
> commonly believed snake oil. They know what they are doing.
They are Las Vegas magicians with incredible pretensions to being on
some "forefront" of blah blah blah. Magicians have no credibility or
authority beyond debunking psychics, astrologers, spoon benders, and
others who use the tricks of the magicians' trade to befuddle the
masses, and I say that as a great fan of Randi and a longstanding
member of CSICOP. They have no business dabbling in areas of true
scientific inquiry, just because they claim rationality.
J
Matthew Fields
Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Matthew Fields wrote:
>> In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Matthew Fields wrote:
>
>
>> >"Misery loves company".
>>
>> Anthropomorphism.
>>
>> > Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
>>
>> No.
>
>Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
>
>RL
I am inferring that you're quite confused, and I'm stating quite clearly
that I'm a cheerful bloke.
The rest of your funny claims are your own lookout.
Raving Loonie
Matthew Fields wrote:
> In article <1116620073.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >Matthew Fields wrote:
> >> In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >Matthew Fields wrote:
> >Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
> I am inferring that you're quite confused, and I'm stating quite
clearly
> that I'm a cheerful bloke.
>
> The rest of your funny claims are your own lookout.
So you agree that your assertion of -
"I am inferring that you're quite confused, and I'm stating quite
clearly
that I'm a cheerful bloke. "
- is amusing ?
- and that we are in agreement on this point?
... Otherwise, you are not amused ?
Curious. I have always taken you as being an easy going and optimistic
sort of guy.
;-)
RL
Stephen Worth
Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They are Las Vegas magicians with incredible pretensions to being on
> some "forefront" of blah blah blah. Magicians have no credibility or
> authority beyond debunking psychics, astrologers, spoon benders, and
> others who use the tricks of the magicians' trade to befuddle the
> masses, and I say that as a great fan of Randi and a longstanding
> member of CSICOP. They have no business dabbling in areas of true
> scientific inquiry, just because they claim rationality.
That's basically the same thing I said, except Penn & Teller don't
really dabble in areas of scientific inquiry. They apply the scientific
method and rational analysis to debunking snake oil... and just about
everyone believes in snake oil of one sort or another. Their Bullshit
program is a brilliant and entertaining deconstruction of this stuff.
Some topics are like shooting a fish in a barrel, others are pretty eye
opening. In any case, it's a lot better than the Sun Pictures
International Nostradamus, Noah's ark, ghost and UFO documentaries that
are frequently shown on the "Learning Channel", and it's certainly more
informative than most broadcast TV.
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116616995.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > What were the points about PETA and environmentalism?
>
> You have to see the shows... they were brilliant.
Yeah, I doubt it. It's admittedly easy to lampoon PETA, especially
since the organization is often intentionally self-lampooning, but the
greater point of minimizing harm to animals is noble and held by many a
decent and intelligent person, including but not limited to a school of
British ethicists going back to the 18th century (starting with Jeremy
Bentham). The various man-made perils to the environment is a serious
area of study...if magician/entertainers made brilliant comments on it,
they would be published in scientific peer-reviewed/refereed journals,
not on TV shows. But I suppose in our culture these days, TV shows
taking cheap potshots are much more impressive than scientific
journals.
J
Raving Loonie
> Matthew Fields wrote:
> > In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >Matthew Fields wrote:
Honestly, misconstrual in communication fascinates me.
> > >"Misery loves company".
> >
> > Anthropomorphism.
> >
> > > Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
> >
> > No.
>
> Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
>
> RL
You meant 'Antropomorphism' insofar as it applies to misery suiting
itself.
I infered that your usage of 'Antropomorphism' was meant to suggest
that Baroque composers deliberately set out to compose morose music.
You consider Baroque music to be sufficiently cheerful.
You, yourself were of 'like' dour-mindedness; ... hence, at heart, a
miserable 'sot'.
:(
Melodious Thunk
"bpnjensen" <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Just to reiterate (or perhaps to be redundant), I will insist that
> sharing classical music with your children (along with reading and
> music-making) is good quality parenting, and will tend to make them
> seek out higher forms of music and knowledge;
Heh. I often hold my 10 month old in my lap while I practice piano; and he bangs away while I
play Bach one-handed. My kids are surrounded by quality classical and jazz at my house... and
yet when I take 'em to the beach, the neighbor vehicles are blaring out Lil' Jon ("Fuck
yerselves, yeah just fuck yerselves...") at 1,400 watts. I know perfectly well that my parenting
skills are creating little oddballs that won't fit in. ;-)
> ...and I will add that curiosity about the best and highest is an
> expression of intelligence. The Mozart Effect could well be imaginary,
> but the lifelong love of learning instilled by early and frequent
> exposure to quality art and literature and science gives your child an
> intellectual advantage *of some kind* that others will not have.
Time will tell. As a kid, I don't recall liking *anything* that my parents liked.
That being said, it couldn't hurt!
Matthew Fields
Wrong. Anybody, absolutely anybody has business dabbling in areas
of scientific inquiry. If the evidence exists to back up a scientific
claim, then given enough time, it can be presented to and explained to
anybody with a brain. That's just part of the difference between science
and other epistimologies.
Nightingale
>
> I infered that your usage of 'Antropomorphism' was meant to suggest
> that Baroque composers deliberately set out to compose morose music.
> You consider Baroque music to be sufficiently cheerful.
>
You have not listened to enough Baroque music - some is morose, some is
very cheerful.
> You, yourself were of 'like' dour-mindedness; ... hence, at heart, a
> miserable 'sot'.
>
His statement "I'm a cheerful bloke." seems quite accurate to me. You
see confused about several things.
Nightingale
> I know perfectly well that my parenting
> skills are creating little oddballs that won't fit in. ;-)
>
Good for you! :-)
John Harrington
> In article <1116620641....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
John
> Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > They are Las Vegas magicians with incredible pretensions to being
on
> > some "forefront" of blah blah blah. Magicians have no credibility
or
> > authority beyond debunking psychics, astrologers, spoon benders,
and
> > others who use the tricks of the magicians' trade to befuddle the
> > masses, and I say that as a great fan of Randi and a longstanding
> > member of CSICOP. They have no business dabbling in areas of true
> > scientific inquiry, just because they claim rationality.
>
> That's basically the same thing I said, except Penn & Teller don't
> really dabble in areas of scientific inquiry. They apply the
scientific
Issues of the environment such as global warming, ozone depletion,
pollution, etc., aren't "snake oil", and neither is the ethical view of
minimizing harm to animals. Magician/entertainers have no business
dabbling in either, and, if they wish to, they should contribute to
them in legitimate ways, in scientific journals or in jorunals of
philosophy, etc., after receiving appropriate credentials. These are
entertainers, not trained scientists. The fact that they even use
terms such as "the scientific method" makes me want to vomit. The
"snake oil" here is the idea that they know what they're talking about
beyond their chosen field.
J
bpnjensen
since the organization is often intentionally self-lampooning, but the
greater point of minimizing harm to animals is noble and held by many a
decent and intelligent person, including but not limited to a school of
British ethicists going back to the 18th century (starting with Jeremy
Bentham).<<
Hear hear back, and agreed.
>> The various man-made perils to the environment is a serious
area of study...if magician/entertainers made brilliant comments on it,
they would be published in scientific peer-reviewed/refereed journals,
not on TV shows. But I suppose in our culture these days, TV shows
taking cheap potshots are much more impressive than scientific
journals.<<
What many people do not understand is that, unlike in a highly
controlled lab situation, where direct results can often (although not
always) be measured quickly and definitively, the environment presents
a huge set of variables that defy any attempts at easy sorting. The
net result is that observational experiments, many times the only kind
that can be done, take a great deal of time to implement, trying the
patience and credulousness of the observing public. Not only that, but
various subtle or indirect pathways can lead to unexpected results that
may appear to defy the hypothesis at hand.
The one that really stands out is the greenhouse effect, and/or global
warming. There is little doubt at this point that the earth's
atmosphere is subtly heating; there is a great deal of conjecture and
argument about why. The hypothesis is that humans are playing a role
in this warming. The experiments being done are trying to prove or
cast doubt on this hypothesis. A bit of evidence comes out once in
awhile one way or the other before a wary public, and before you know
it, both sides are raging away, calling each other names. Meanwhile,
the scientists have to go on in this "climate" trying to get to the
truth.
Also, we get a winter with very heavy precipitation across much of the
United States (although not all), and a couple of nasty summer storm
seasons in a row. People use these events to support both sides of the
equation, while the average temperature shows up as slightly higher
than normal. All of which can be supported with simple statistics
against an average background. Nature is messy.
All of which leads to cheap potshots by those who support one agenda or
another.
Even if one is not an environmentalist, it still makes sense to
exercise caution to preserve the best of the system we have; but this
obvious concept seems lost on those who have ulterior motives. The net
result is that nothing gets done, and we fiddle while Rome burns.
This being off-topic (except the fiddle part) I will restrain myself
from this point forward.
Bruce Jensen
John Harrington
<snip>
> ... I know perfectly well that my parenting
> skills are creating little oddballs that won't fit in. ;-)
Bravo. Keep up the good work!
J
Raving Loonie
As some people, I went through a 'Baroque' phase, wherein I spent a
year or two listening almost exclusively to Baroque music; being very
enthusiastic about it. For me, the music was full of life.
It was rather disconcerting to hear it suggested that Baroque music is
associated with a person who is depressed.
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's admittedly easy to lampoon PETA, especially
> since the organization is often intentionally self-lampooning, but the
> greater point of minimizing harm to animals is noble and held by many a
> decent and intelligent person
You can't understand without seeing the show itself. It isn't
anti-animal... and PETA isn't lampooned... PETA is shown for what it
really is... and it definitely isn't a "let's all be nice to animals"
group.
They prove that PETA financially supported an Animal Liberation
terrorist that firebombed university labs and disrupted useful medical
research that would save millions of lives. They show a convicted
animal terrorist who PETA sends into the public school system to
recruit kids. They let the words of PETA spokespeople prove how they
put the rights of animals above the rights of people and disrespect the
deaths of the victims of the Holocaust. The best part is when they show
that the officers of PETA themselves are hypocritical in the extreme,
euthanizing animals they pretend to be saving and justifying using
medicines derived from animal products that they publicly say no one
else should be using.
It's an eye opening half hour.
Stephen Worth
Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Issues of the environment such as global warming, ozone depletion,
> pollution, etc., aren't "snake oil", and neither is the ethical view of
> minimizing harm to animals. Magician/entertainers have no business
> dabbling in either, and, if they wish to, they should contribute to
> them in legitimate ways, in scientific journals or in jorunals of
> philosophy, etc., after receiving appropriate credentials.
You're talking about a program you haven't seen. Of course on usenet,
not knowing what one is talking about is pretty common, so there's no
need to require that you have the appropriate credentials yourself. But
I do have to say that you play the role of self righteous indignation
brilliantly.
John Harrington
<snip>
> It's an eye opening half hour.
What you describe sounds like the same ol' same ol' of gotchas, cheap
shots, hypocrisy-hunting, and so on..."eye opening", I suppose, if
you're predisposed to hostility toward PETA. As a 10 year member of
PETA, the idea that the organization "disrespects" holocaust victims
and puts animal rights *above* human rights is blatant nonsense. That
simply doesn't fairly characterize the organization at all, though I'm
sure they were able to uncover a few "gotchas" so they could smear the
organization that way. How about you take a few years of the PETA
bulletin and read what PETA actually says on a consistent basis, rather
than relying on a few gaffs and unguarded comments, perhaps some of
them taken out of context? As to an act of PETA "terrorism"
jeopardizing "millions of lives", that itself is a load of Bullshit.
As someone who has worked at a major research university, I can attest
to the fact that no PETA "interruption" could possibly have such an
effect. It would be interesting to see what Penn and Teller support
indirectly or directly that might have adverse effects on human rights
and then get them to try to explain on camera how they reconcile their
actions and their professed beliefs. It's very easy to nit pick out
hypocrisies. In my experience, animal advocates are far less
hypocritical than people who never give animals a second thought. They
are also far kinder to humans.
J
Raving Loonie
Interesting thought ...
'Pontificating on Usenet' is as 'Singing in the shower'
RL
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116625413....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
John
> Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Issues of the environment such as global warming, ozone depletion,
> > pollution, etc., aren't "snake oil", and neither is the ethical
view of
> > minimizing harm to animals. Magician/entertainers have no business
> > dabbling in either, and, if they wish to, they should contribute to
> > them in legitimate ways, in scientific journals or in jorunals of
> > philosophy, etc., after receiving appropriate credentials.
>
I didn't say anything about the program. I stand by what I actually
said.
J
Michael Haslam
> Raving Loonie wrote:
> > Matthew Fields wrote:
> > > In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >Matthew Fields wrote:
>
> Honestly, misconstrual in communication fascinates me.
>
> > > >"Misery loves company".
> > >
> > > Anthropomorphism.
> > >
> > > > Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
> > >
> > > No.
> >
> > Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
> >
> > RL
>
> You meant 'Antropomorphism' insofar as it applies to misery suiting
> itself.
Why are you replying to your own post, Raving? And in such a strange
way.
>
> I infered
Now you are using the word correctly, if not spelling it correctly.
>that your usage of 'Antropomorphism' was meant to suggest
> that Baroque composers deliberately set out to compose morose music.
> You consider Baroque music to be sufficiently cheerful.
>
> You, yourself were of 'like' dour-mindedness; ... hence, at heart, a
> miserable 'sot'.
>
> :(
Now I understand; there are *two* Raving Loonies posting in this thread.
--
MJHaslam
Remove accidentals to obtain correct e-address
"Can't you show a little restraint?" - Dr. David Tholen
Wayne Brown
>
> Time will tell. As a kid, I don't recall liking *anything* that my parents liked.
> That being said, it couldn't hurt!
It certainly doesn't hurt, and sometimes it sticks. For instance, in
a couple of hours my teenage son and I will be heading to the symphony
for a performance of Mozart's Concerto No. 3 in G major for violin and
Bruckner's Symphony No. 6 in A major. He's been exposed to Classical
music all his life, but it's only in the past year that he's shown this
much interest in it. (His favorite music is '50s, '60s and '70s pop
"oldies.") This makes about a dozen Classical concerts we've attended
together since last fall.
--
Wayne Brown (HPCC #1104) | "When your tail's in a crack, you improvise
fwb...@bellsouth.net | if you're good enough. Otherwise you give
| your pelt to the trapper."
"e^(i*pi) = -1" -- Euler | -- John Myers Myers, "Silverlock"
Raymond Hall
news:1116627280.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> In my experience, animal advocates are far less
> hypocritical than people who never give animals a second thought. They
> are also far kinder to humans.
In a nutshell. And an a very good generalisation, which could be undone by
the odd few specific examples to the contrary.
Compassion and kindness are universal qualities. Show me someone who is
cruel to an animal, and I will show you someone who is fully capable of
being cruel to a human being.
Ray H
Taree
John Harrington
<snip>
> Compassion and kindness are universal qualities. Show me someone who
is
> cruel to an animal, and I will show you someone who is fully capable
of
> being cruel to a human being.
I believe one of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy in the DSM is
abuse of animals. I welcome correction by someone with a copy handy.
On looking into the "PETA/Penn&Teller" connection, I happened across
the following article, which describes beautifully the reality of what
it means to be an advocate of animal welfare vs. what bleary-eyed
ignorami on the street think it means:
======================================================================
Animal Rights and Abortion
By Kathy Guillermo
It happened again. It was Saturday afternoon and my husband and I had
taken our three kids out for an afternoon at the beach. I happened to
be wearing a shirt with an animal rights message: "Respect your fellow
Earthlings." Beneath the words is a drawing by cartoonist Berkeley
Breathed of a young woman extending her hand to a cautious group of
animals, including a chimpanzee, a dog, a bird, a bunny, and a pig.
Not exactly in your face, but it made at least one person see red,
because without warning, he was in my face. His features were twisted
in anger and his index finger was pointed right at my nose. My kids
were startled. The 8-month-old, in a pack on her dad's back, burst into
frightened tears.
"You care more about animals than people!" the stranger shouted, spit
flying from his mouth. "You should be saving babies from abortion, not
worrying about pigs! You would rather help animals than unborn babies!"
Without saying a word, my husband and I guided our family past the
furious man, who continued to yell epithets until we were out of his
shouting range. No point in arguing with someone who's about to throw a
punch.
Such incidents are shocking, particularly when my young children
witness them. But they're hardly surprising. I've heard the same
accusation dozens of times. It's usually tossed up like a trump card,
delivered with a smug look that says, "Now I've got you! Nobody can
admit to caring more about cows strung upside down in the
slaughterhouse than about babies!"
I've heard plenty of arguments against my belief that might doesn't
make right, that we have no right to cage, eat, experiment on, and wear
animals on our backs simply because we hold the guns and whips and
knives. But the abortion accusation is the most puzzling. Why single
out animal rights activists? Did the angry man at the beach approach
the fellow wearing the Miller High Life shirt and accuse him of loving
beer more than babies?
There is a lot of suffering in the world and all of it needs to be
addressed. Why waste time vilifying people who are already trying to
alleviate some of it? My guess is that the angry man at the beach
doesn't accuse telephone operators, teachers, bankers, garbage
collectors, or any other working people of loving their jobs more than
babies. He probably doesn't stand outside movie theaters accusing
filmgoers of wasting their time on mindless entertainment while unborn
babies die. No, the angry man's ire is reserved for those who are
trying to end cruel, outdated practices, like shoving shampoo down
guinea pigs' throats and watching tigers jump through burning hoops;
for those who know we'd be healthier, and the animals better off, if we
didn't consume decaying flesh; and for those who believe fashion
shouldn't involve bloodshed.
And this is what betrays the angry man. He isn't thinking so much about
saving unborn babies as he is about preserving his turf. He is
threatened by the suggestion that we should "respect our fellow
Earthlings" because, if he did, he might have to make a few adjustments
in his life. After he puts down his "Abortion Is Murder" sign he
couldn't stop for a Big Mac, for example. Certainly, it's easier to
make me the villain than face the fact that experimenters still starve
and shock animals in"food aversion" studies. But if he labels me a
hypocrite, he can dismiss the notion of "respect" for all. I happen to
be pro-life. Many animal rights activists are. Many others believe
abortion is acceptable, for both humans and animals. It's not easy to
categorize us. We are democrats and republicans, men and women, young,
middle-aged and old, liberal and conservative; we are college
professors, store clerks, writers, priests, ex-hunters, homemakers,
actors, dentists, researchers, secretaries, students, veterinarians and
mail carriers.
What we share is the belief that there is an alternative to every cruel
act. We believe that if we can stop sufferingregardless of what species
the victim iswe should stop it.
Still, I sympathize a bit with the angry man at the beach; I used to be
him. I used to eat animal flesh, wear leather shoes, and munch popcorn
at the circus while elephants twirled before me. Facing up to the pain
I supported every time I smeared mayonnaise on a ham sandwich was
momentarily uncomfortable, but finding another, better way was
surprisingly easy. The most important lesson I learned is that we don't
have to choose between people and animals. There is no competition
between us; sharing our compassion with animals only makes us better
human beings.
Kathy Guillermo is a writer for People for the Ethical Treatment of
Animals and the author of Monkey Business: The Disturbing Case That
Launched the Animal Rights Movement.
Raving Loonie
> Raving Loonie <frogwa...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > Raving Loonie wrote:
> > > Matthew Fields wrote:
> > > > In article
<1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >Matthew Fields wrote:
> >
> > Honestly, misconstrual in communication fascinates me.
> >
> > > > >"Misery loves company".
> > > >
> > > > Anthropomorphism.
> > > >
> > > > > Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
> > > >
> > > > No.
> > >
> > > Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
> > >
> > > RL
> >
> > You meant 'Antropomorphism' insofar as it applies to misery suiting
> > itself.
>
> Why are you replying to your own post, Raving? And in such a strange
> way.
Misconstrual is often strange. It is an exploration of the unexpected.
As for multiple email addresses, emmanating from the same ISP ?
That should present no difficulty to anyone passionate about music
wherein endlessly mixed edits of numerous takes is ubiquiotous and
ordinary.
> >
> > I infered
>
> Now you are using the word correctly, if not spelling it correctly.
My spelling is an eye sore. After 50 years, I accept the inevidable as
well as a viable spelling checker which Google as my news-server of
choice fails to provide.
Using a word correctly?
As I see it there are at very least 2 ways of using most words. Many
such usages amusingly contradict each other.
Of course, if you only see one-way then why bother to look further, eh?
Simply write everyone with a dissenting opinion off as a 'Raving
Loonie'.
'Ignorance' is your prerogative.
> >that your usage of 'Antropomorphism' was meant to suggest
> > that Baroque composers deliberately set out to compose morose
music.
> > You consider Baroque music to be sufficiently cheerful.
> >
> > You, yourself were of 'like' dour-mindedness; ... hence, at heart,
a
> > miserable 'sot'.
> >
> > :(
> Now I understand; there are *two* Raving Loonies posting in this
thread.
Along with another mind having a fixed, pedantic perspective.
> --
> MJHaslam
> Remove accidentals to obtain correct e-address
> "Can't you show a little restraint?" - Dr. David Tholen
P.S. ... I must assume that you are suggesting that Dr. Tholen uses
less restraint than he is currently employing ? Quite frankly, I find
it difficult to imagine that an individual could be any more tightly
constrained than he appears to be at the moment.
Do you admire his irritating troupe of parasitic fleas?
They are monotonous, disrespectful, and dull, being quite easy to
ignore. An easy mark for ridicule.
RL
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a 10 year member of PETA...
OK. That explains why you're so demonstrative on this subject. Now I
know why you don't need to even watch the program to criticize it.
I can see how PETA supporters would be so opposed to this show... Penn
& Teller pretty much destroy any credibility PETA ever had using PETA's
own spokesmen, its own website, and most devastatingly, its own
publicly filed tax return. Before I saw it, my impression of PETA was
based on turkey rescues at Thanksgiving and hyper-theatrical protests
by over-enthusiastic college students. My opinion was that PETA was
amusing but basically harmless. After seeing it, I don't feel nearly as
"warm and fuzzy" about them.
In a semi-unrelated note, I wonder when Penn & Teller are going to take
on Scientology?
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116627280.0...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As a 10 year member of PETA...
>
> OK. That explains why you're so demonstrative on this subject. Now I
It "explains" nothing, other than I'm a member of PETA...I'm a member
of a lot of organizations, some of them requiring some defense because
they're unfairly picked upon, and others requiring no such defense. As
to fairmindedness, perhaps you should do as I suggested and actually
expose yourself a little to PETA's message for a while. You might not
agree with it, but then again you might see that placing animals over
humans and "disrespecting" the holocaust is not remotely a fair
characterization of PETA's actual beliefs. As I said before, "gotchas"
are easy to come by. Nobody's perfect. Actually understanding the
thrust of someone's message involves less prejudice and more
investigation.
J
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As to an act of PETA "terrorism"
> jeopardizing "millions of lives", that itself is a load of Bullshit.
> As someone who has worked at a major research university, I can attest
> to the fact that no PETA "interruption" could possibly have such an
> effect.
Are you familiar with Rodney Coronado? He's a convicted felon who
firebombed a Michigan State University medical lab. Penn & Teller
showed video footage of Coronado representing the Animal Liberation
Front (ALF) demonstrating to college students how to make an incindiary
device out of a milk jug, a rag and gasoline. He was encouraging them
to use arson against medical research facilities. They had a tape of a
telephone conversation with Coronado where he stated he didn't want to
appear on the show to defend his actions because he didn't want to say
anything to make PETA look bad. Penn & Teller quoted PETA's founder,
Ingrid Newkirk describing this despicable terrorist as a "fine young
man". Through tax records, the program showed that PETA gave tens of
thousands of dollars to Rodney Coronado, and even channelled money to
him through bogus "loans" to his father.
PETA isn't just kids pulling stunts to protest animal issues. It
supports out and out urban terrorism.
For more info, see the National Animal Interest Alliance... They've got
the whole scoop there.
http://www.naiaonline.org/
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On looking into the "PETA/Penn&Teller" connection, I happened across
> the following article, which describes beautifully the reality of what
> it means to be an advocate of animal welfare vs. what bleary-eyed
> ignorami on the street think it means:
Nice anecdotal story... If you are interested in hearing why animal
rights organizations have such a bad name, here are some other cases to
check out while you're at it... vandalism, firebombings, explosives,
stealing dead people's remains and holding them for ransom, computer
hacking, identity theft, credit card fraud, endangering baby animals,
throwing rocks through the windows of veterinarians... The cases I
quote are just from 2005. You can get the complete list at...
http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/arterror.htm
Animal rights and environmental extremists use intimidation and
violence to achieve their ends
Animal rights and environmental extremists no longer limit themselves
to demonstrations, publicity stunts and radical legislative proposals.
Today they embrace physical assaults, vandalism, harassment, theft,
property destruction, and terrorism to achieve their ends. Over the
past two decades these attacks have mushroomed into the following
events:
May 17, 2005 Fair Oaks, CA: Several SUVs and trucks were spray-painted
with łELF˛ and łpolluter˛, and many also had their tires slashed. A
short distance away łbomb the White House˛ was found spray-painted on a
real estate sign. FBI, Secret Service, and a joint terrorism task force
are investigating, and trying to find out if the two attacks were
related.
May 9, 2005 Laurel Hollow, NY: The wife of an executive of Forest
Laboratories was followed to her workplace, where credit cards were
stolen from her car. They were used by ALF activists to buy $20,000 in
Travelers Checks that were sent to a number of charities. A post on the
ALF website stated "If we find out a dime of that money granted to
those charities was taken back we will strip you bear (sic) and burn
your (expletive). This is OUR insurance policy.˛ The family has been
attacked before, with graffiti painted on their house, and their phone
number, license plates and bank accounts posted on the Internet. Two NY
police departments and the FBI are investigating attacks on about 30
Forest Lab employees in the NY metro area. Attacks have moved from
protests at homes to vandalism, theft, and threats. Forest Laboratories
does business with Huntington Life Sciences.
April 27, 2005 Dorset, UK: A group calling itself the Lobster
Liberation Front has claimed responsibility for destroying the fishing
nets of a lobsterman on Easter Sunday. The group had attacked another
lobsterman last summer, releasing his lobsters and damaging his
boathouse.
April 26, 2005 Hollywood Hills, CA: Five animal rights activists were
arrested after being caught breaking windows and defacing the property
of an executive of Huntington Life Sciences.
April 20, 2005 Baton Rouge, LA: The FBI and Louisiana State University
police are investigating the break-in, vandalism, and release of ten
caged mice at a university biology lab. The activists broke in through
a ventilation grid, broke windows, painted ALF slogan on walls, sprayed
acetone on outside walls, and glued locks shut. The ALF website claimed
the vandalism was done łin celebration of World Week for Animals in
Laboratories.˛
April 13, 2005 Sammamish, WA: ELF is suspected in a fire caused by an
incendiary device at a home in the late stages of construction, causing
about $100,000 worth of damage Another incendiary device, which did not
go off, was discovered at another new house a few blocks away. A sign
was found saying łWhere are all the trees, burn, rapists, burn. ELF.˛ A
third device was found March 3 in a home under construction in Redmond.
Federal officials said the unexploded device in Sammamish is similar to
the devices found in Snohomish County a year ago, which were firebombs
made with two-liter bottles full of flammable liquid. The FBI and
agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are
investigating. (See April 21, 2004)
March 29, 2005 Hattiesburg, MS: The ALF łpress office˛ reported that
ALF activists vandalized a KFC restaurant, spray-painting slogans and
damaging the order box speaker.
April 4, 2005 Burton, UK: In letters to the media, a group calling
itself the Animal Rights Militia offered to return łone-sixth˛ of the
remains of the 82 year old mother-in-law of a part-owner of Darley
Oakes Farm, which raises guinea pigs for biomedical research. The
womanąs body was stolen from her grave in October. Several known animal
rights activists have been arrested and bailed but the body has not
been found. The letter offered GPS coordinates for the exact location
where they said the partial remains were buried in a plastic container.
The letter stated, ł"We would have returned Gladys had the Halls taken
steps towards closing down, but they did nothing. The Halls have a
choice. If they take steps now to close they may not have to see one of
their family or a friend buried... by us. We have disposed of one body
no problem, the next one will be easier.˛ (See October 8, 2004)
April 2, 2005 Bluffs, IL: ALF raiders broke into a fox farm and opened
58 pens containing females nursing litters or about to deliver.
Breeding records were destroyed. All the foxes were recovered, one
died, and the farm is faced with the challenge of matching mothers to
the correct pups. Property damage is minor, but the extent of damage
done to livestock wonąt be known for several weeks. An ALF press
release said the attack was in support of Peter Young, a recently
captured fugitive implicated in attacks on several farms seven years
ago.
March 16, 2005 Branston, England: A gasoline bomb was left on the
doorstep of a house owned by the daughter of a part-owner of Darley
Oaks Farm, which breed guinea pigs for biomedical research. Bomb
disposal experts removed the device. Threatening letters had been
received by the staff of the farm during the week.
March 6, 2005 Fair Oaks, CA: Vandals spray-painted ELF on several
pickup trucks and SUVs. Police are investigating whether the Fair Oaks
vandalism against the vehicles is connected with the firebombings and
attempted arsons at new construction sites in the area over the last
several months.
March 3, 2005 London, England: Heathrow and Manchester airports, air
freight companies, and airport operators BAA are being targeted by a
new group, Gateway to Hell, protesting the importation of animals for
biomedical research. The group is closely linked to SHAC. Police are
investigating a number of vandalism attacks by unknown assailants on
the homes and vehicles of some BAA executives, which caused tens of
thousands of dollars in damages. Graffiti spray-painted on the home of
the finance director of BAA said łYou are now a target for us. You will
not win.˛ A director of UTI, A freight-forwarding company, was attack
the same night and UTI directors received threatening letters at their
homes warning of łmore visible signs of action˛ if the firm didnąt stop
dealing with HLS. (donąt know if you want to leave this inŠAs a result,
UTI has said it will no longer do business with HLS.)
February 19, 2005 Chino Hills, CA: Animal rights activists vandalized
the home of the chief veterinarian for the city of Los Angeles. They
threw rocks through windows, and left behind fliers with the
veterinarianąs photo, accusing her of animal cruelty. ALF is suspected
in this incident as well as prior threats against the veterinarian and
other employees of the LA City Animal Shelter.
February 18, 2005 Albuquerque, NM: The FBI suspects eco-terrorism in
the arson of a home under construction. There have been billboards
targeted with graffiti against development of the area.
February 15, 2005 Auburn, CA: A fifth firebomb was found and safely
dismantled at the Department of Motor Vehicle offices. The first three
firebombs were aimed at developments, the last two at government
establishments. The FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force is investigating all
five, two of which have been claimed as the work of ELF. (See February
7 and January 12 articles).
February 14, 2005 United Kingdom: An animal rights group calling itself
łElectronic Civil Disobedience (ECD) against the Fur and Vivisection
Industry˛ launched a Denial of Service attack against seven
organizations in the fur industry. They are attempting to crash
computer servers by flooding them with e-mail, thanks to new software
that automatically sends e-mails from chat rooms each time a new
message is typed.
February 13, 2005 Carson and Torrence, CA: ALF claimed responsibility
for two more attacks on fast-food restaurants. For the second time in
one week, windows were smashed and graffiti including łALF˛ and
łMcKillers˛ spray painted at the Torrence McDonalds. The Carson KFC
sustained broken windows and slogans including łKFC Kills˛ and a
misspelled statement łUntil the slaughter stops, neither will we.˛
Damage was estimated at $20,000. This makes at least five attacks in
the area in the last three months.
February 13, 2005 Auburn, CA: Eco-terrorism may be behind a firebomb
placed at the foot of the Placer County courthouse. The follows the
arrest of Ryan Lewis, a suspect charged with attempted arson of an
office building in Auburn and arson of an apartment building in Sutter
Creek. The FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force is investigating.
February 7, 2005 Sutter Creek, CA: An early morning arson at a new
apartment complex may be the work of radical environmental activists.
Graffiti saying łWe will win ELF˛ was found at the site. There were
seven individual fires, set off by seven incendiary devices. Four of
the apartments suffered direct damage, others were damaged by fires set
in halls and by smoke damage. Only two of the apartments were occupied
and no one was injured. An FBI task force is investigating these fires
along with the firebombs recently found at the construction sites of an
office building in Auburn and a new subdivision in Lincoln.
February 6, 2005 Torrance, CA: Animal rights activists smashed windows
and glass doors and spray-painted slogans at a McDonalds restaurant. A
burglar alarm alerted police around 4:30 am. łMcMurder Killers˛ and
łALF˛ were painted on a window. it was similar to attacks in the South
Bay and Hollywood Hills within the last three months. Since November,
vandals have struck at least three other times at McDonald's
restaurants ‹ including once at the same Torrance franchise. Each time,
they shattered windows, spray-painted the letters "ALF" and wrote
slogans such as "Don't feed your kids McKillers," "Stop McKiller" and
"We won't sleep until the slaughter ends."
January 20, 2005 San Luis, CA: ALF activists cut through a 500ą segment
of 8ą high fence at the GNK ranch and released a heard of European
fallow deer. The owner, who sells venison at farmerąs markets, was able
to collect and corral most of the herd. The claim posted on an activist
website read ł"Freedom for these creatures -- for whom death is a
certainty -- was a simple and unskilled operation. We encourage
compassionate people everywhere to locate farms in their area and tear
down their walls. For the liberation of the helpless we will strike,
A.L.F."
January 12, 2005 Auburn, CA: Five incendiary devices were found in an
office building under construction. Devices of the same type were
discovered in an upscale subdivision in near-by Lincoln on December 27.
Official stated the firebombs were capable of extensive damage.
Graffiti found on the Lincoln homes included łU will pay˛ and łEnjoy
the world as it is as long as you can.˛ In a letter sent to the
Auburn Journal on January 18, ELF claimed responsibility, and warned of
more terrorist attempts to come "We are setting a new precedent,
where there will be at least one or more actions every few weeks," it
read. The Joint Terrorism Task Force is investigating.
January 1, 2005 Hever, Kent, England: Seven incendiary devices believed
to be display-strength rockets were found on the ground where the Old
Surrey Bristow and West Kent Hunt was meeting. Members of the hunt
smelled burning and uncovered the set, time-delay fuses. West Kent
police extinguished the fuses and are investigating. Over ninety horses
were taking part in the hunt, including children on ponies, and there
were many people on foot in the area, along with cars and horse-boxes.
Graeme Worsley, joint master of the hunt, said: "If you have a firework
going off under a horse and its rider you are talking about a potential
fatality. These people have a blatant disregard for the safety of
anyone, horses or people. It is terrorism, it is nothing to do with
animal welfare." The group has been attacked before by hunt saboteurs
throwing fireworks and harassing the hunt and hunt followers.
John Harrington
<snip>
> PETA isn't just kids pulling stunts to protest animal issues. It
> supports out and out urban terrorism.
No, that is not a fair characterization of PETA's views, as you would
realize had you spent any time with PETA's members or took the time to
find out what the organization actually stands for on a daily basis.
As to the issue of Rodney Coronado, yes I am aware of him and I don't
believe PETA has knowingly funded acts of terrorism. If there were
credible evidence that they have, they could be tried and convicted
under current law and their tax exempt status revoked. And they are
hardly skirting under the radar. PETA critics (more like antagonists)
have been trying to smear PETA with the terrorism charge for years as,
in part, an attempt to remove its tax exemption. To date, PETA remains
a tax exempt organization and unconvicted of any criminal conspiracy.
Any political organization such as PETA has members and associates on
the wrong side of the law, and it is very easy to smear the entire
organization because of the association. That doesn't discredit the
organization as a whole.
J
bpnj...@yahoo.com
supports out and out urban terrorism. <
I am also a PETA member.
If PETA supports all that you describe, then there is a problem, and it
needs correcting. But rest assured, this is not PETA's general message
- you will not see a call for violence anywhere in any of its materials
- and I cannot believe that any majority of PETA supporters would agree
with the bulk of these tactics. Doubtless, there are many fringe
groups that associate with PETA personnel, and doubtless, some PETAns
are also ALFers. To whitewash all PETAns (and those who care about
animals) as violent idiots who "place animals above humans" is
thoroughly disingenuous.
Bruce Jensen
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116632812.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On looking into the "PETA/Penn&Teller" connection, I happened
across
> > the following article, which describes beautifully the reality of
what
> > it means to be an advocate of animal welfare vs. what bleary-eyed
> > ignorami on the street think it means:
>
> Nice anecdotal story... If you are interested in hearing why animal
> rights organizations have such a bad name, here are some other cases
to
> check out while you're at it... vandalism, firebombings, explosives,
> stealing dead people's remains and holding them for ransom, computer
> hacking, identity theft, credit card fraud, endangering baby animals,
The anti-abortion movement has a history of murder and mahem. Throwing
rocks and spray painting are the least of their crimes. Yet, if I see
someone at the beach wearing an "It's a child, not a choice" tee, I
don't start shouting spittle into their face, nor should I. That is
the act of a mindless, prejudiced ignoramus, like the one this poor
woman faced.
J
John Harrington
> >PETA isn't just kids pulling stunts to protest animal issues. It
> supports out and out urban terrorism. <
>
> I am also a PETA member.
>
The charges don't even merit an "if" at this point. The Coronado
incident is over 10 years old. Literally millions have been spent
trying to drag PETA into the terrorist dragnet and nothing has come of
it. PETA is simply not a terrorist organization. Anyone who believes
they are may go to court, present the evidence and have them shut down
permanently under existing law. Nothing of the sort has happened, nor
do I believe it will.
I wish people wouldn't rely on television reports as a basis for
pontificating on issues they don't understand, but what can you do?
J
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As to the issue of Rodney Coronado, yes I am aware of him and I don't
> believe PETA has knowingly funded acts of terrorism.
Personally, I don't care if PETA funded specific acts of terrorism or
not. Funding a convicted ALF firebomber is enough for me to have
nothing to do with them.
> Any political organization such as PETA has members and associates on
> the wrong side of the law, and it is very easy to smear the entire
> organization because of the association. That doesn't discredit the
> organization as a whole.
I'm sure there are many fine people in the membership roles of PETA.
But the leadership at the top is full of rotten eggs. Ingrid Newkirk's
support of Coronado is enough to give her the boot. Get rid of her and
the people in charge who think like that, and I'll reconsider my
opinion. Until then, I'm not out of line to say that PETA is not a good
organization to support.
Here in Los Angeles, Pam Ferdyn is waging a war of intimidation on the
officials of the LA County Animal Shelters. She's violating their
privacy, interfering with their ability to do their job, wasting my tax
dollars, and putting the welfare of the animals housed there at risk.
She is another animal rights spokesperson I can do without.
There are plenty of animal welfare organizations that deserve support.
PETA is not one of them.
Stephen Worth
<bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If PETA supports all that you describe, then there is a problem, and it
> needs correcting.
Bravo! There's the correct attitude.
I suggest you read this article...
http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/ca_arson_terrorist(8-7-
03).htm
Then telephone PETA and tell them that they should immediately issue a
public condemnation of all animal rights organizations that employ or
condone illegal means for promoting their cause. Do a little research
and make a list of them yourself so they know which ones they need to
disassociate themselves from (ALF, ELF, etc). Request that Ingrid
Newkirk issue a statement publicly apologizing for supporting Rodney
Coronado and employing Gary Yourofsky. Ask her to state clearly that
PETA will never again condone or encourage any illegal activity on
behalf of animal rights, and affirm that PETA does not consider animal
rights to be superior to human rights. Tell PETA that you expect them
to promote the cause of animal welfare in a civil and professional
manner, and that they should do everything possible to insure that all
members do the same.
If you get them to do that, I'll join PETA.
Good luck
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with you. That's a good example of one person suffering from
mindless prejudice. Now let's talk about thousands of people suffering
from a prejudiced ignoramus firebombing a college medical research
facility... Or the woman whose mothers remains were stolen from the
graveyard and offered back to her for ransom, just because she raises
guinea pigs for medical research... Or the county animal control
director whose house had rocks thrown through the windows because he
heads up animal shelters that euthanize unwanted cats and dogs... or
any of the other examples on the list I posted... These are a lot worse
than getting bawled out by a jerk on the street.
See ya
Steve
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wish people wouldn't rely on television reports as a basis for
> pontificating on issues they don't understand, but what can you do?
Watching reports on TV is better than turning a blind eye to clear
evidence. OK. You think PETA is clean, even though it supported Rodney
Coronado. What do you think of the ALF?
Bob Harper
> In article <1116632812.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>On looking into the "PETA/Penn&Teller" connection, I happened across
>>the following article, which describes beautifully the reality of what
>>it means to be an advocate of animal welfare vs. what bleary-eyed
>>ignorami on the street think it means:
>
>
> Nice anecdotal story... If you are interested in hearing why animal
> rights organizations have such a bad name, here are some other cases to
> check out while you're at it... vandalism, firebombings, explosives,
> stealing dead people's remains and holding them for ransom, computer
> hacking, identity theft, credit card fraud, endangering baby animals,
> throwing rocks through the windows of veterinarians... The cases I
> quote are just from 2005. You can get the complete list at...
>
> http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/arterror.htm
>
> Animal rights and environmental extremists use intimidation and
> violence to achieve their ends
>
> Animal rights and environmental extremists no longer limit themselves
> to demonstrations, publicity stunts and radical legislative proposals.
> Today they embrace physical assaults, vandalism, harassment, theft,
> property destruction, and terrorism to achieve their ends. Over the
> past two decades these attacks have mushroomed into the following
> events:
>
> May 17, 2005 Fair Oaks, CA: Several SUVs and trucks were spray-painted
> short distance away ³bomb the White House² was found spray-painted on a
> Laboratories.²
>
> April 13, 2005 Sammamish, WA: ELF is suspected in a fire caused by an
> incendiary device at a home in the late stages of construction, causing
> about $100,000 worth of damage Another incendiary device, which did not
> go off, was discovered at another new house a few blocks away. A sign
> third device was found March 3 in a home under construction in Redmond.
> Federal officials said the unexploded device in Sammamish is similar to
> the devices found in Snohomish County a year ago, which were firebombs
> made with two-liter bottles full of flammable liquid. The FBI and
> agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are
> investigating. (See April 21, 2004)
>
> ALF activists vandalized a KFC restaurant, spray-painting slogans and
> damaging the order box speaker.
>
> April 4, 2005 Burton, UK: In letters to the media, a group calling
> remains of the 82 year old mother-in-law of a part-owner of Darley
> Oakes Farm, which raises guinea pigs for biomedical research. The
> rights activists have been arrested and bailed but the body has not
> been found. The letter offered GPS coordinates for the exact location
> where they said the partial remains were buried in a plastic container.
> steps towards closing down, but they did nothing. The Halls have a
> choice. If they take steps now to close they may not have to see one of
> their family or a friend buried... by us. We have disposed of one body
> no problem, the next one will be easier.² (See October 8, 2004)
>
> April 2, 2005 Bluffs, IL: ALF raiders broke into a fox farm and opened
> 58 pens containing females nursing litters or about to deliver.
> Breeding records were destroyed. All the foxes were recovered, one
> died, and the farm is faced with the challenge of matching mothers to
> the correct pups. Property damage is minor, but the extent of damage
> release said the attack was in support of Peter Young, a recently
> captured fugitive implicated in attacks on several farms seven years
> ago.
>
> March 16, 2005 Branston, England: A gasoline bomb was left on the
> doorstep of a house owned by the daughter of a part-owner of Darley
> Oaks Farm, which breed guinea pigs for biomedical research. Bomb
> disposal experts removed the device. Threatening letters had been
> received by the staff of the farm during the week.
>
> March 6, 2005 Fair Oaks, CA: Vandals spray-painted ELF on several
> pickup trucks and SUVs. Police are investigating whether the Fair Oaks
> vandalism against the vehicles is connected with the firebombings and
> attempted arsons at new construction sites in the area over the last
> several months.
>
> March 3, 2005 London, England: Heathrow and Manchester airports, air
> freight companies, and airport operators BAA are being targeted by a
> new group, Gateway to Hell, protesting the importation of animals for
> biomedical research. The group is closely linked to SHAC. Police are
> investigating a number of vandalism attacks by unknown assailants on
> the homes and vehicles of some BAA executives, which caused tens of
> thousands of dollars in damages. Graffiti spray-painted on the home of
> not win.² A director of UTI, A freight-forwarding company, was attack
> the same night and UTI directors received threatening letters at their
> dealing with HLS. (don¹t know if you want to leave this inŠAs a result,
> UTI has said it will no longer do business with HLS.)
>
> February 19, 2005 Chino Hills, CA: Animal rights activists vandalized
> the home of the chief veterinarian for the city of Los Angeles. They
> threw rocks through windows, and left behind fliers with the
> in this incident as well as prior threats against the veterinarian and
> other employees of the LA City Animal Shelter.
>
> February 18, 2005 Albuquerque, NM: The FBI suspects eco-terrorism in
> the arson of a home under construction. There have been billboards
> targeted with graffiti against development of the area.
>
> February 15, 2005 Auburn, CA: A fifth firebomb was found and safely
> dismantled at the Department of Motor Vehicle offices. The first three
> firebombs were aimed at developments, the last two at government
> establishments. The FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force is investigating all
> five, two of which have been claimed as the work of ELF. (See February
> 7 and January 12 articles).
>
> February 14, 2005 United Kingdom: An animal rights group calling itself
> Industry² launched a Denial of Service attack against seven
> organizations in the fur industry. They are attempting to crash
> computer servers by flooding them with e-mail, thanks to new software
> that automatically sends e-mails from chat rooms each time a new
> message is typed.
>
> February 13, 2005 Carson and Torrence, CA: ALF claimed responsibility
> for two more attacks on fast-food restaurants. For the second time in
> ³McKillers² spray painted at the Torrence McDonalds. The Carson KFC
> sustained broken windows and slogans including ³KFC Kills² and a
> misspelled statement ³Until the slaughter stops, neither will we.²
> Damage was estimated at $20,000. This makes at least five attacks in
> the area in the last three months.
>
> February 13, 2005 Auburn, CA: Eco-terrorism may be behind a firebomb
> placed at the foot of the Placer County courthouse. The follows the
> arrest of Ryan Lewis, a suspect charged with attempted arson of an
> office building in Auburn and arson of an apartment building in Sutter
> Creek. The FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force is investigating.
>
> February 7, 2005 Sutter Creek, CA: An early morning arson at a new
> apartment complex may be the work of radical environmental activists.
> seven individual fires, set off by seven incendiary devices. Four of
> the apartments suffered direct damage, others were damaged by fires set
> in halls and by smoke damage. Only two of the apartments were occupied
> and no one was injured. An FBI task force is investigating these fires
> along with the firebombs recently found at the construction sites of an
> office building in Auburn and a new subdivision in Lincoln.
>
> February 6, 2005 Torrance, CA: Animal rights activists smashed windows
> and glass doors and spray-painted slogans at a McDonalds restaurant. A
> ³ALF² were painted on a window. it was similar to attacks in the South
> Bay and Hollywood Hills within the last three months. Since November,
> vandals have struck at least three other times at McDonald's
> restaurants ‹ including once at the same Torrance franchise. Each time,
> they shattered windows, spray-painted the letters "ALF" and wrote
> slogans such as "Don't feed your kids McKillers," "Stop McKiller" and
> "We won't sleep until the slaughter ends."
>
> of 8¹ high fence at the GNK ranch and released a heard of European
> fallow deer. The owner, who sells venison at farmer¹s markets, was able
> to collect and corral most of the herd. The claim posted on an activist
> certainty -- was a simple and unskilled operation. We encourage
> compassionate people everywhere to locate farms in their area and tear
> down their walls. For the liberation of the helpless we will strike,
> A.L.F."
>
> January 12, 2005 Auburn, CA: Five incendiary devices were found in an
> office building under construction. Devices of the same type were
> discovered in an upscale subdivision in near-by Lincoln on December 27.
> Official stated the firebombs were capable of extensive damage.
> the world as it is as long as you can.² In a letter sent to the
> Auburn Journal on January 18, ELF claimed responsibility, and warned of
> more terrorist attempts to come "We are setting a new precedent,
> where there will be at least one or more actions every few weeks," it
> read. The Joint Terrorism Task Force is investigating.
>
> January 1, 2005 Hever, Kent, England: Seven incendiary devices believed
> to be display-strength rockets were found on the ground where the Old
> Surrey Bristow and West Kent Hunt was meeting. Members of the hunt
> smelled burning and uncovered the set, time-delay fuses. West Kent
> police extinguished the fuses and are investigating. Over ninety horses
> were taking part in the hunt, including children on ponies, and there
> were many people on foot in the area, along with cars and horse-boxes.
> Graeme Worsley, joint master of the hunt, said: "If you have a firework
> going off under a horse and its rider you are talking about a potential
> fatality. These people have a blatant disregard for the safety of
> anyone, horses or people. It is terrorism, it is nothing to do with
> animal welfare." The group has been attacked before by hunt saboteurs
> throwing fireworks and harassing the hunt and hunt followers.
>
You've made mincemeat of Harrington, for which well done. You must
understand, however, that no matter what you say, he will insist on
having the last word, and will think he's trumped you, no matter how
inane his statements actually are. That's just how he is, so don't let
it bother you. Just remember you've won the argument quite handily.
Bob Harper
Stephen Worth
<bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
> he will insist on
> having the last word, and will think he's trumped you, no matter how
> inane his statements actually are. That's just how he is, so don't let
> it bother you.
I got that impression. I'm finished, except to say again that Penn &
Teller's Bullshit is the best show on TV. I wish I had Showtime because
new episodes are airing and I haven't seen them yet. Anyone out there
taping them?
See ya
Steve
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116641667.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I wish people wouldn't rely on television reports as a basis for
> > pontificating on issues they don't understand, but what can you do?
>
> Watching reports on TV is better than turning a blind eye to clear
> evidence.
There is no "clear evidence". If there were, PETA would be convicted
of aiding and abetting terror. You are repeating accusations without
any regard for the truth.
J
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116641225.0...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The anti-abortion movement has a history of murder and mahem.
Throwing
> > rocks and spray painting are the least of their crimes. Yet, if I
see
> > someone at the beach wearing an "It's a child, not a choice" tee, I
> > don't start shouting spittle into their face, nor should I. That
is
> > the act of a mindless, prejudiced ignoramus, like the one this poor
> > woman faced.
>
> I agree with you. That's a good example of one person suffering from
Whatever non sequiturs we talk about, let's not talk about crimes
against property which do not compare with, say, murders, which
anti-abortionists have carried out, including the sniper killing of a
doctor sitting down to dinner with his family, and setting off nail
bombs with the express intent to wound and kill in Olympic Park, gay
nightclubs and abortion clinics. For that matter, there is simply no
comparison between right wing violence and left wing violence in the
'States. No comparison whatsoever.
J
John Harrington
> In article <idGdnT6k0s6...@comcast.com>, Bob Harper
> <bob.h...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > he will insist on
>
> I got that impression.
It's not about getting the last word. It's about the fact that truth
is tireless and lies poop out quite quickly. Truth usually has the
last word.
> I'm finished
You certainly are.
J
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116640973.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > If PETA supports all that you describe, then there is a problem,
and it
> > needs correcting.
>
> Bravo! There's the correct attitude.
>
> I suggest you read this article...
>
>
http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/ca_arson_terrorist(8-7-
> 03).htm
>
> Then telephone PETA and tell them that they should immediately issue
a
> public condemnation of all animal rights organizations that employ or
> condone illegal means for promoting their cause.
They've already done so.
> Do a little research
Physician, heal thyself.
> and make a list of them yourself so they know which ones they need to
> disassociate themselves from (ALF, ELF, etc).
You don't need to dissociate yourself from organizations you were never
involved with.
J
John Harrington
John Harrington wrote:
> Stephen Worth wrote:
> > In article <1116640973.8...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> > <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > If PETA supports all that you describe, then there is a problem,
> and it
> > > needs correcting.
> >
> > Bravo! There's the correct attitude.
> >
> > I suggest you read this article...
> >
> >
>
http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/ca_arson_terrorist(8-7-
> > 03).htm
> >
> > Then telephone PETA and tell them that they should immediately
issue
> a
> > public condemnation of all animal rights organizations that employ
or
> > condone illegal means for promoting their cause.
>
> They've already done so.
Or, rather, they've denounced violent means. They have not denounced
civil disobedience or other non-violent means.
J
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116640584.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > As to the issue of Rodney Coronado, yes I am aware of him and I
don't
> > believe PETA has knowingly funded acts of terrorism.
>
> Personally, I don't care if PETA funded specific acts of terrorism or
Yes, it is quite clear you have absolutely no concern for the truth.
J
Michael Haslam
Matthew Fields
>> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >Matthew Fields wrote:
>> >> In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> >> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >Matthew Fields wrote:
>
>
>
>> >Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
>
>
>clearly
>> that I'm a cheerful bloke.
>>
>> The rest of your funny claims are your own lookout.
>
>
>So you agree that your assertion of -
>
>"I am inferring that you're quite confused, and I'm stating quite
>clearly
>that I'm a cheerful bloke. "
>
> - is amusing ?
> - and that we are in agreement on this point?
>
> ... Otherwise, you are not amused ?
>
>Curious. I have always taken you as being an easy going and optimistic
>sort of guy.
I'm sorry, time's up, you'll have to pay for another half-hour if you want
to keep going at this.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Matthew Fields
Raving Loonie <frogwa...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>Nightingale wrote:
>> Raving Loonie wrote:
>> >
>> > I infered that your usage of 'Antropomorphism' was meant to suggest
>> > that Baroque composers deliberately set out to compose morose
>music.
>> > You consider Baroque music to be sufficiently cheerful.
>> >
>>
>is
>> very cheerful.
>>
>>
>> > You, yourself were of 'like' dour-mindedness; ... hence, at heart,
>a
>> > miserable 'sot'.
>> >
>>
>You
>> see confused about several things.
>
>As some people, I went through a 'Baroque' phase, wherein I spent a
>year or two listening almost exclusively to Baroque music; being very
>enthusiastic about it. For me, the music was full of life.
>
>It was rather disconcerting to hear it suggested that Baroque music is
>associated with a person who is depressed.
>
Certainly wasn't me who made that suggestion. Perhaps somebody was thinking
of The Movies.
Matthew Fields
Matthew Fields
Raving Loonie <frogwa...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>Raving Loonie wrote:
>> Matthew Fields wrote:
>> > In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>> > Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >Matthew Fields wrote:
>
>
>> > >"Misery loves company".
>> >
>> > Anthropomorphism.
>> >
>> > > Does Baroque music depress you, too ?
>> >
>> > No.
>>
>>
>
>You meant 'Antropomorphism' insofar as it applies to misery suiting
>itself.
>
>that Baroque composers deliberately set out to compose morose music.
>You consider Baroque music to be sufficiently cheerful.
>
>miserable 'sot'.
>
>
Very odd logic. Choose your premises carefully.
I reckon the 'moroseness' in baroque music to be mostly of
as-yet-not-fulfilled desire, in pursuit of quite gleeful sensuality--
made quite explicit in madrigals of the time, and slyly referenced
even in works with "holy" texts.
Matthew Fields
James Randi Educational Foundation, and I reserve the right to disagree
with either of 'em at any time. So there.
Nu?
Michael Haslam
> Does classical music make dolphins smarter?
I always try to choose tunafriendly dolfin.
[nb I silt tea into my lato keyboard this morning and now 5 keys don't
work. Guess which letter is fubar.]
Michael Haslam
> Smarter babies like classical music.
>
> Incidentally, I played music to my first child while she was in utero,
> not because I thought it would make her smarter, but I thought it
> couldn't hurt and might increase the likelihood she would develop
> interest/ability in music. I didn't even know at the time that this
> was a popular fad, but what gave me the idea was that baby books we
> read at the time suggested reading/talking to the fetus.
>
> I later learned that the inside of the womb is so LOUD that my daughter
> probably heard nothing, and, as it happens, I think she's less
> musically inclined than my second daughter, although it's too early to
> tell for sure.
My daughter's mother was rehearsing and erforming and listening to the
Schubert Octet eight months after she was conceived. For the first 18
months after her birth the recording of the Schubert was the only thing
that calmed her on car journeys. She is, coincidentally, very bright
with a good musical ear.
Thomas Wood
"bpnjensen" <bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1116614014....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>You should look for that particular episode of Bullshit. It covers
> just
> about everything you mention in your post. <<
>
> I seriously doubt it. There are some rather substantial books written
> by respected researchers that I have seen, and in some cases read, the
> contents of which cannot be covered and/or refuted by 50 or so minutes
> of even high-quality TV.
Please, cite some of these for us.
Tom Wood
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:hFGje.1596$II....@news.itd.umich.edu:
> Does classical music make dolphins smarter?
I don't know, but I understand they're thankful for all the fish.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Matthew B. Tepper
> In article <1116622553.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> Raving Loonie <frogwa...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>Matthew Fields wrote:
>>> In article <1116620073.5...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
>>> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >Matthew Fields wrote:
>>> >> In article <1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>>> >> Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >> >Matthew Fields wrote:
>>
>>> >Are you infering that 'at heart' you are a miserable sot ?
>>
>>> I am inferring that you're quite confused, and I'm stating quite
>>> clearly that I'm a cheerful bloke.
>>>
>>> The rest of your funny claims are your own lookout.
>>
>> So you agree that your assertion of -
>>
>> "I am inferring that you're quite confused, and I'm stating quite
>> clearly that I'm a cheerful bloke. "
>>
>> - is amusing ?
>> - and that we are in agreement on this point?
>>
>> ... Otherwise, you are not amused ?
>>
>> Curious. I have always taken you as being an easy going and optimistic
>> sort of guy.
>
> I'm sorry, time's up, you'll have to pay for another half-hour if you
> want to keep going at this.
But I paid you just now!
Raving Loonie
Matthew Fields writes -
> Does classical music make dolphins smarter?
No, you have it all wrong!
Do dolphins make calssical music better ?
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> I know perfectly well that my parenting skills are creating little
> oddballs that won't fit in. ;-)
Good! More, more!
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:200520051237280227%ne...@vintageip.com:
> In article <1116615436....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
><bpnj...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> OK, you're the expert (you and Penn and Teller). The so-called Mozart
>> Effect may be - but the other things I said have considerable basis in
>> research.
>
> I think you just don't know much about Penn & Teller. They aren't just
> Las Vegas magicians. They, along with James Randi, are at the forefront
> of applying rational thought and the scientific method to debunking
> commonly believed snake oil. They know what they are doing.
>
> Everyone agrees that good parenting allows babies to achieve their
> maximum potential. But we aren't talking about good parenting. The
> thing we are discussing is whether listening to classical music makes
> babies smarter. If you take all of the studies done on the subject and
> average their results, you come up with a wash.
Actually, I think the odious thing is parents using easily-bought
quasi-"solutions" to make the job of parenting easy for them. Instead of
sticking the kid in front of a TV for electronic babysitting, they stick
him in front of a boombox playing "lite" Mozart arrangements.
This should properly be termed child abuse, but I don't want to detract
from the prosecution of real cases of same.
Matthew B. Tepper
> There are plenty of animal welfare organizations that deserve support.
> PETA is not one of them.
The only PETA I would want to be a member of is the alternative one, where
the acronym stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.
Raving Loonie
> In article <1116623321.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> Raving Loonie <frogwa...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >Raving Loonie wrote:
> >> Matthew Fields wrote:
> >> > In article
<1116616947....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> >> > Raving Loonie <raving...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >Matthew Fields wrote:
Ahah!
> Very odd logic. Choose your premises carefully.
>
> I reckon the 'moroseness' in baroque music to be mostly of
> as-yet-not-fulfilled desire, in pursuit of quite gleeful sensuality--
> made quite explicit in madrigals of the time, and slyly referenced
> even in works with "holy" texts.
Foreplay is everything.
Yes, good explanation.
RL
John Harrington
> Stephen Worth <ne...@vintageip.com> appears to have caused the
following
> letters to be typed in news:200520051926303461%ne...@vintageip.com:
>
> > There are plenty of animal welfare organizations that deserve
support.
> > PETA is not one of them.
>
> The only PETA I would want to be a member of is the alternative one,
where
> the acronym stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.
Wow that's funny, and so original, too.
Okay, so for you it's just okay that animals literally suffer tortures
all their lives on factory farms, living in constant misery and
unimaginable suffering. But that's okay because you find them "tasty".
And if you found it "fun" you'd go watch a cat being burnt by
cigarettes, or a horse being shocked slowly to death, right? Is there
any treatment of animals you wouldn't find objectionable?
Okay, now reply with one of your patented "amusing" one liners, jerk.
J
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:1116692499.351981.83620
@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
How's this? PLONK!
Bob Harper
> Stephen Worth <ne...@vintageip.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:200520051926303461%ne...@vintageip.com:
>
>
>>There are plenty of animal welfare organizations that deserve support.
>>PETA is not one of them.
>
>
> The only PETA I would want to be a member of is the alternative one, where
> the acronym stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.
>
Bob Harper
Raving Loonie
Gareth Williams
They actually make it worse, but not on porpoise.
--
Kind regards, Gareth Williams
Stephen Worth
John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Whatever non sequiturs we talk about, let's not talk about crimes
> against property which do not compare with, say, murders
Yes, crimes against property (like firebombing university research
facilities) are much "nicer" than murders. (rolls eyes)
Sheesh! Give it up.
See ya
Steve
--
VIP RECORDS: Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD in great sound
FREE MP3s OF COMPLETE SONGS http://www.vintageip.com/records/
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/
Stephen Worth
<sp...@uce.gov> wrote:
> Does classical music make dolphins smarter?
They love La Mer!
John Harrington
Completely expected, and welcome.
J
Stephen Worth
Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You don't need to dissociate yourself from organizations you were never
> involved with.
Rodney Adam Coronado is a long-time ringleader of the Animal
Liberation Front, a criminal enterprise that the FBI classifies as
Americaąs most dangerous domestic terrorism threat. He was sentenced in
1995 to 57 months in federal prison, for the 1992 arson of a Michigan
State University research laboratory. In a November 30, 2002 speech,
Coronado openly confessed to at least six other arsons, all of them
part of a crime spree known as łOperation Bite Back.˛ While the FBI was
most intensely investigating Coronado, PETA gave him over $70,000 in
łgrants˛ from its tax-exempt coffers.
Reference
http://www.activistcash.com/biography.cfm/bid/3255
John Harrington
Stephen Worth wrote:
> In article <1116652335.1...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> John Harrington <bear...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Whatever non sequiturs we talk about, let's not talk about crimes
> > against property which do not compare with, say, murders
>
> Yes, crimes against property (like firebombing university research
> facilities) are much "nicer" than murders. (rolls eyes)
So after swearing me off, you still can't help replying. What a
surprise.
Yes, firebombing inanimate objects is much nicer than murdering humans.
It's much nicer even than torturing animals.
J
John Harrington
Same reply:
Okay, so for you it's just okay that animals literally suffer tortures
all their lives on factory farms, living in constant misery and
unimaginable suffering. But that's okay because you find them "tasty".
And if you found it "fun" you'd go watch a cat being burnt by
cigarettes, or a horse being shocked slowly to death, right? Is there
any treatment of animals you wouldn't find objectionable?
Not to mention same cowardly running away from the answer.
J