greatest rivalries in music? who hated whose guts most?
cyborchestra
Ward Hardman
> ??
According to the writer, Don Marquis, Archy was once a great poet but
was reincarnated as a cockroach. Archy wrote by hopping from key to
key of Don's old typewriter, but was unable to use the shift key, so
his writing lacked capitals (and most punctuation). Are you a
reincarnated cockroach?
--Ward Hardman
"The older I get, the more I admire and crave competence, just
simple competence, in any field from adultery to zoology."
- H.L. Mencken
Allen
Please! archy showed much more intelligence and common sense than the
Shiftless Wonder. And--he used the same name throughout his career,
rather than changing it every few days. archy was a very gifted
cockroach, in spite of his inability to use the shift key, as his friend
mehitabel realized.
Allen
Ward Hardman
> Ward Hardman wrote:
> > The troll currently using the "cyborchestra" alias wrote:
> > > ??
> > According to the writer, Don Marquis, Archy was once a great poet
but
> > was reincarnated as a cockroach. Archy wrote by hopping from key to
> > key of Don's old typewriter, but was unable to use the shift key,
so
> > his writing lacked capitals (and most punctuation). Are you a
> > reincarnated cockroach?
> Please! archy showed much more intelligence and common sense than the
> Shiftless Wonder. And--he used the same name throughout his career,
> rather than changing it every few days. archy was a very gifted
> cockroach, in spite of his inability to use the shift key, as his
friend
> mehitabel realized.
Indeed! I am not suggesting that a human in the form of a cockroach is
doing this trollery; rather I am suggesting that an ungifted cockroach,
who has been reincarnated as a human, is unable to abandon the
circumscribed typing practices of his former self. ;-)
mdhjwh
cyborchestra wrote:
> ??\\
Well Mr Cockroach, I'd suggest it was Melba & Caruso.
Anyone who could place a cold sausage in the hand of the heroine whilst
rendering "Your tiny hand is frozen" sure didn't do it out of love.
Valfer
not a cockroach, but rather a weebylyn, those pesky little bugs which
infest cockroaches' pantries.
Valfer
Peter T. Daniels
supposedly never met.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Matthew B. Tepper
following letters to be typed in news:41C991...@worldnet.att.net:
> Well, Schoenberg and Stravinsky lived in the same town for years and
> supposedly never met.
I read once that they nodded to one another at a Monday Evening Concert.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Dan Tritter
> Well, Schoenberg and Stravinsky lived in the same town for years and
> supposedly never met.
stravinsky didn't play tennis.
stravinsky, standing 5'3", asked by bob craft years later what he
remebered of maurice ravel: "he was very short."
Peter T. Daniels
So was Schoenberg. If they'd ever met, Igor would have had something
else to kvell over.
Theresa
Bruckner and Brahms?
(narrowed to rmcr because I don't read the
other newsgroups)
"Peter T. Daniels" <gram...@worldnet.att.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:41C991...@worldnet.att.net...
brian....@loras.edu
orchestral musicians has to be between Don Peck and Ray Still,
principal flute and oboe respectively of the Chicago Symphony. Due to
their opposing sides in a union dispute, the two sat literally next to
each other for many years and did not speak. In Furlong's 1974 book,
"Season with Solti," Still was quoted as saying, "I think we play
better together since we stopped talking to each other."
Brian Hughes
J. Teske
Brahms and Tschaikowsky actively disliked each other on both a
personal and a musical level. (They did agree on the merits of Dvorak
though, both liked him although the mild mannered Dvorak was hardly a
threat to either one.) Brahms and Wagner was a fight seemingly fought
more by disciples than principals.
I once heard on Public TV a lecture by Stravinsky (ca. mid 1960's)
when during the Q & A session, and audience member asked Stravinsky
what he though of the music of Richard Strauss.
Stravinsky, after some thought, said "I don't much like the major
works of Richard Strauss."
After another pause he added; "I don't really like the minor works
either."
Jon Teske
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Well, Schoenberg and Stravinsky lived in the same town for years and
> supposedly never met.
If the town was Los Angeles, that's probably quite possible,
and may have had nothing to do with "hatred" - just physical
distance.
Matthew Fields
I've heard from Richard Hoffmann that it had to do with personalities.
It still seems odd. Schoenberg regularly played tennis with Gerswhin
and wrote a published polemic defending Gershwin against critics--
but had it in for wannabe followers of Hindemith. Go figure.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://personal.www.umich.edu/~fields
Music: Splendor in Sound
To be great, do things better and better. Don't wait for talent: no such thing.
Brights have a naturalistic world-view. http://www.the-brights.net/
Theresa
I heard that Stuckenschmidt, the journalist and
musical writer, had lunch with Stravinsky and had an
appointment with Schoenberg the same afternoon, and
that Stravinsky urged him not to mention where he
had had lunch with Schoenberg.
"EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:cqc89...@news3.newsguy.com...
Ward Hardman
> Brahms and Tschaikowsky actively disliked each other on both a
> personal and a musical level. [snip]
>
> I once heard on Public TV a lecture by Stravinsky (ca. mid 1960's)
> when during the Q & A session, and audience member asked Stravinsky
> what he though of the music of Richard Strauss.
>
> Stravinsky, after some thought, said "I don't much like the major
> works of Richard Strauss."
>
> After another pause he added; "I don't really like the minor works
> either."
"To Strauss the composer I take off my hat;
to Strauss the man I put it on again ."
-Arturo Toscanini
Alan Cooper
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Well, Schoenberg and Stravinsky lived in the same town for years and
>supposedly never met.
This subject is discussed in the notes for the new Naxos recording of
the Genesis Suite, which includes movements by both composers:
"Though they lived only a few miles apart in Los Angeles, there was
lingering hostility between the two, and during that time frame they
probably met only a few times, at public occasions. . . . The dress
rehearsals for Genesis Suite had to be organized so that Schonberg and
Stravinsky would not meet, but they ended up being there
simultaneously, and they remained on opposite sides of the hall.
Schoenberg's response to a disciplie's request for his reaction to the
Stravinsky piece was, 'It didn't end; it just stopped.'"
One more amusing point is that all of the composers who contributed to
the suite were paid $300 for their contributions except for
Stravinsky, who was "clandestinely" paid $1000. The work is an
interesting artifact with more historical than musical interest, but
the movements by Schoenberg, Toch, and Stravinsky are certainly worth
hearing, imo.
AC
Peter T. Daniels
>
> No, their residences were quite close in LA.
> I heard that Stuckenschmidt, the journalist and
> musical writer, had lunch with Stravinsky and had an
> appointment with Schoenberg the same afternoon, and
> that Stravinsky urged him not to mention where he
> had had lunch with Schoenberg.
They could see each other's villas on opposite hillsides, or something
like that? Closer, anyway, than Jefferson and Madison -- J could see M
with his telescope from Monticello.
> "EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)" <evg...@earthlink.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:cqc89...@news3.newsguy.com...
> >
> >
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >> Well, Schoenberg and Stravinsky lived in the same town for years and
> >> supposedly never met.
> >
> > If the town was Los Angeles, that's probably quite possible,
> > and may have had nothing to do with "hatred" - just physical
> > distance.
Dan Koren
"cyborchestra" <aliked...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1103671129.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> ??
>
typically conductors and opera singers.
but do your own research. you will find
it a lot more enjoyable.
dk
David7Gable
That's probably true. But what are two composers supposed to do?
Automatically befriend one another because they share a profession?
In fact Schoenberg's and Stravinsky's feelings toward the other's music were
ambiguous at worst. Despite equivocal comments from both corners, there was
also a certain respect. Schoenberg ended a negative review of Oedipus
Rex--about which he had been curious enough to attend a performance--by
questioning his own reaction, remarking that it is precisely the pieces that
critics dismiss in their day that are most valued by posterity. Stravinsky's
only published reaction to Schoenberg's music before Schoenberg's death had
been the favorable reaction to Pierrot lunaire expressed in his autobiography.
Schoenberg's death freed Stravinsky to register a more unguarded admiration for
some of Schoenberg's music than he had expressed privately.
While both composers were alive, Craft visited Schoenberg on more than one
occasion without being banished to outer darkness by Stravinsky. Bruno Walter
was only one of the other guests welcome in both households.
-david gable
Stephen Jay-Taylor
especially if they had made more money than him. The other main motivating
factor for the whole gang of mittel-Europaisch musical munchkins who fetched
up in California in the 30s and 40s for disliking Strauss - at a deeper
level of envy than the obviously political - was that he was 6' 3''.
SJT, 6' 3'' on a good day. Good-day.
Terry King
Terry King
I remember hearing of a bitter fight between Stravinsky and Vernon Duke
(Vladimir Dukelsky) carried out in the pages of (I think) the New York
Times, in which one of Stravinsky's volleys was entitled "A Cure for
V.D."
Matthew B. Tepper
> "To Strauss the composer I take off my hat;
> to Strauss the man I put it on again ."
> -Arturo Toscanini
I believe that was in response to a specific action of Strauss, namely,
promising Toscanini the Italian premiere of some work, maybe _Salome_, and
then undercutting it by conducting it himself in another Italian theater the
previous week.
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
Louis Spohr could have looked down at you.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in news:20041222144025...@mb-m14.aol.com:
Is there any truth to the story that Stravinsky, after paying his respects to
Schoenberg's widow, was heard to mutter, "Now I am alone"?
For that matter, how much did Schoenberg's "Herr Doktor Modernsky" quip
affect this non-relationship ... and was it a cause, or an effect?
Stephen Jay-Taylor
As could Rachmaninov. Oddly, I've never looked up to either.
SJT the haughty
Stephen Jay-Taylor
David7Gable
>Stravinsky was a wonderfully sour-mouthed bitch who never liked anybody,
This would be funnier if it were true.
-david gable
Dan Tritter
spoken like one who probably has never been within an ocean of l.a., and
who probably wasn't alive at the time. who told you this fairy tale?
the late hedda hopper?
by the way, stravinsky probably made as much money as any of them.
David7Gable
>
>Schoenberg's widow, was heard to mutter, "Now I am alone"?
He did pay his respects to Gertrud, but I don't know about "Now I am alone."
>For that matter, how much did Schoenberg's "Herr Doktor Modernsky" quip
>affect this non-relationship ... and was it a cause, or an effect?
Long after Schoenberg died, Stavinsky said he could almost forgive Schoenberg
for writing the Little Modernsky canon because it was such an ingenious canon.
-david gable
David7Gable
Tom Deacon and Dan Koren
Tom Deacon and David Hurwitz
Tom Deacon and Samir Golescu
-david gable
DylanBD
as the center of a gay clique that had taken over British music and pushed
Walton into the shadows.
"My music can never succeed," Walton was reported to lament, "Because I'm
just normal and everybody's queer."
Peter T. Daniels
Nu, would anyone argue that Walton's music "succeeds" better than
Britten's or Tippett's?
DylanBD
> "Ward Hardman" <ward_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> "To Strauss the composer I take off my hat;
>> to Strauss the man I put it on again ."
>> -Arturo Toscanini
>
> I believe that was in response to a specific action of Strauss, namely,
> promising Toscanini the Italian premiere of some work, maybe _Salome_, and
> then undercutting it by conducting it himself in another Italian theater
> the
> previous week.
I don't know that story, but it wasn't the only reason Toscanini had to
dislike him. When Toscanini, in protest against the Nazis, withdrew from
conducting at Bayreuth, Strauss took his place. Though he wasn't an active
collaborator, Strauss's cynical opportunism brought him the justified
contempt of many of the "mittel-Europaisch" of his day.
"Stephen Jay-Taylor" <sjayt...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> The other main motivating
> factor for the whole gang of mittel-Europaisch musical munchkins who
> fetched
> up in California in the 30s and 40s for disliking Strauss - at a deeper
> level of envy than the obviously political - was that he was 6' 3''.
Are we assuming here that physical vanity is a "deeper" feeling than moral
disgust?
David7Gable
AC quotes from Naxos liner notes on the relationship of Schoenberg to
Stravinsky:
>"Though they lived only a few miles apart in Los Angeles, there was
>lingering hostility between the two, and during that time frame they
>probably met only a few times, at public occasions.
"Hostility" is not quite the right word. Something like "wariness" would be
better.
-david gable
David7Gable
He made virtually no money off the original versions of Firebird, Petroushka,
and Rite of Spring, his three most widely performed, choreographed, and
recorded pieces. The Stravinsky who wrote them was a "White Russian," and the
Tsar had never signed any international copyright agreements.
One reason Stravinsky took up conducting and performing publicly as a pianist
is because he was desperate for money. That's also one but only one of the
reasons for his later revisions of Petroushka and the Rite and for his
concoction of a new Firebird Suite. He was certainly comfortably well off by
his Los Angeles years, but his income couldn't begin to compare to the incomes
of the real heroes of American culture: movie stars, sports stars, and rock
stars. (The superstar singers who starred in the operas of Rossini, Donizetti,
and Bellini were routinely paid more money than the composers whose music they
sang.)
Something of Stavinsky's attitude toward money--healthy respect-- is revealed
in a remark he made in the late 60's when an early Monet painting sold for a
then unprecedented sum in the neighborhood of $1,000,00: according to
Stravinsky, the sale showed "a flagrant lack of respect for the true value of
money." (This remark was not aimed at Monet but at inflation in the art
market.)
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
> Tom Deacon and Dan Koren
> Tom Deacon and David Hurwitz
> Tom Deacon and Samir Golescu
No, there's one which tops all of those:
Tom Deacon and reality.
Matthew B. Tepper
letters to be typed in
> "Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote:
>> "Ward Hardman" <ward_h...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> "To Strauss the composer I take off my hat;
>>> to Strauss the man I put it on again ."
>>> -Arturo Toscanini
>>
>> I believe that was in response to a specific action of Strauss, namely,
>> promising Toscanini the Italian premiere of some work, maybe _Salome_,
>> and then undercutting it by conducting it himself in another Italian
>> theater the previous week.
>
> I don't know that story, but it wasn't the only reason Toscanini had to
> dislike him. When Toscanini, in protest against the Nazis, withdrew
> from conducting at Bayreuth, Strauss took his place. Though he wasn't
> an active collaborator, Strauss's cynical opportunism brought him the
> justified contempt of many of the "mittel-Europaisch" of his day.
Well, the business with the _Salome_ premiere was many years earlier, and
was the proximate cause of the Toscanini remark quoted above.
> "Stephen Jay-Taylor" <sjayt...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> The other main motivating factor for the whole gang of mittel-Europaisch
>> musical munchkins who fetched up in California in the 30s and 40s for
>> disliking Strauss - at a deeper level of envy than the obviously
>> political - was that he was 6' 3''.
>
> Are we assuming here that physical vanity is a "deeper" feeling than
> moral disgust?
--
Matthew B. Tepper
Where did that leave Sir Lennox Berkeley, who may well have gone both ways?
(He was notoriously jilted by Britten, but later married and had a son.)
Derek Haslam
<Aomyd.7457$RH4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Yet as far as recording was concerned someone (I forget
who) said that if Walton farted Walter Legge would record
it.
Derek Haslam
--
__ __ __ __ __
/ \ | ||__ |__)/ | | |_ Derek Haslam:
\_\/ |__||__ | \\__ |__| __| Acorn/RISC OS Computer Enthusiast
\ Mastery of the rules is a pre-requisite for creatively breaking them.
SCL
DylanBD wrote:
> William Walton was bitter against Benjamin Britten, seeing the younger man
> as the center of a gay clique that had taken over British music and pushed
> Walton into the shadows.
is this why Britten is in such favor at San Francisco symphony ? =:-)
Peter T. Daniels
? He didn't write much symphonic music.
Now, if you'd inquired about the SF Opera, you might have had a point.
SCL
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> SCL wrote:
>
>>DylanBD wrote:
>>
>>>William Walton was bitter against Benjamin Britten, seeing the younger man
>>>as the center of a gay clique that had taken over British music and pushed
>>>Walton into the shadows.
>>
>>is this why Britten is in such favor at San Francisco symphony ? =:-)
>
>
> ? He didn't write much symphonic music.
Just last month program:
http://www.sfsymphony.org/templates/event_info.asp?nodeid=250&callid=93&eventid=846
In july was performed Spring symphony for solo & the whole SF Symphony chorus
including children one so that there was a half of hall's sits occupied just by it.
>
> Now, if you'd inquired about the SF Opera, you might have had a point.
well, you've already had it :-)
Peter T. Daniels
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> > SCL wrote:
> >
> >>DylanBD wrote:
> >>
> >>>William Walton was bitter against Benjamin Britten, seeing the younger man
> >>>as the center of a gay clique that had taken over British music and pushed
> >>>Walton into the shadows.
> >>
> >>is this why Britten is in such favor at San Francisco symphony ? =:-)
> >
> >
> > ? He didn't write much symphonic music.
>
> Just last month program:
> http://www.sfsymphony.org/templates/event_info.asp?nodeid=250&callid=93&eventid=846
> In july was performed Spring symphony for solo & the whole SF Symphony chorus
> including children one so that there was a half of hall's sits occupied just by it.
That's hardly what comes to mind when you refer to symphonic music. For
orchestra, he wrote one "symphony" (da Requiem) and a couple of
concertos, and a few short occasional pieces.
> > Now, if you'd inquired about the SF Opera, you might have had a point.
>
> well, you've already had it :-)
Dan Koren
"David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041222170436...@mb-m14.aol.com...
>
> Tom Deacon and Dan Koren
> Tom Deacon and David Hurwitz
> Tom Deacon and Samir Golescu
>
These are not rivalries in music.
They are rivalries *about* music.
dk
PS. And also, about pissing rights.
Dan Koren
news:cqc5la$1pi$02$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Wasn't there something with Wolf against
> Bruckner and Brahms?
>
> (narrowed to rmcr because I don't read the
> other newsgroups)
>
Wolf was rather paranoid and ended up in an
asylum. He hated everybody, and especially
Mahler, whom he suspected of blocking his
career.
dk
SCL
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> SCL wrote:
>
>>Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>
>>
>>>SCL wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>DylanBD wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>William Walton was bitter against Benjamin Britten, seeing the younger man
>>>>>as the center of a gay clique that had taken over British music and pushed
>>>>>Walton into the shadows.
>>>>
>>>>is this why Britten is in such favor at San Francisco symphony ? =:-)
>>>
>>>
>>>? He didn't write much symphonic music.
>>
>>Just last month program:
>>http://www.sfsymphony.org/templates/event_info.asp?nodeid=250&callid=93&eventid=846
>>In july was performed Spring symphony for solo & the whole SF Symphony chorus
>>including children one so that there was a half of hall's sits occupied just by it.
>
>
> That's hardly what comes to mind when you refer to symphonic music. For
> orchestra, he wrote one "symphony" (da Requiem) and a couple of
> concertos, and a few short occasional pieces.
>
>
And I did not mean symphonic music
When I mentioned 'San Francisco symphony'.
I meant the Davies symphony hall like all call it here
(look at the left corner http://www.sfsymphony.org/templates/home.asp?nodeid=16&hasflash=1 )
And, well, let's not argue why author called Spring Symphony a symphony...
You mignt be having right point here, but I'm not a fan of Britten (yet) anyway.
Tom Deacon
<dank...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "David7Gable" <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20041222170436...@mb-m14.aol.com...
>>
>> Tom Deacon and Dan Koren
>> Tom Deacon and David Hurwitz
>> Tom Deacon and Samir Golescu
>>
>
>
> These are not rivalries in music.
>
> They are rivalries *about* music.
Wrong.
> PS. And also, about pissing rights.
So vulgar.
TD
ddd
former artistical director, before leaving Milan to conduct the best
orchestras around the world) has never played in Milan anymore (and it is
about 20 years he doesn't conduct in his hometown).
I cannot say if Abbado refused or Muti never invited him (or both things...)
but anyone knows that Muti hates Abbado and Abbado dislikes Muti.
Schoenberg and Stavinsky weren't exactly friends...
Verdi never had good relations with Rossini
Furtwangler hated karajan, who hated Bohm
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
remembered that the Senior Strauss was a famous 1st horn in the Vienna
Orchestra (?) and that he hated Wagner with a passion and that the hate was
mutual. But Wagner once wrote something like...'when he plays his
horn...it's difficult to be cross with him'...or words to that effect.
And as an OT orchestral dislike...Dr. Fritz Reiner and Arthur Rubinstein
hated each other...yet despite this mutual hatred...they managed to record
some marvelous Rachmaninoff performances with the CSO.
Come to think of it...most of the CSO and other orchestral musicians Dr.
Reiner conducted...rather disliked him...but did appreciate his genius on
the podium.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Dan Tritter" <dtri...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:q4idnWSZSvO...@speakeasy.net...
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> Well, Schoenberg and Stravinsky lived in the same town for years and
>> supposedly never met.
>
> stravinsky didn't play tennis.
>
> stravinsky, standing 5'3", asked by bob craft years later what he
> remebered of maurice ravel: "he was very short."
Lani Spahr
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:H%yAd.252080$5K2.142006@attbi_s03...
> Come to think of it...most of the CSO and other orchestral musicians Dr.
> Reiner conducted...rather disliked him...
As the story goes, the musicians (or some of them) went to Reiner's
funeral - just to make sure he was dead.
Lani Spahr
graham
"Lani Spahr" <lani_...@xxxyahooxxx.com> wrote in message
news:JtAAd.823024$8_6.686486@attbi_s04...
Graham
porky_...@my-deja.com
Nazis. After the war was over, all three quoted those letters as an
example of their anti-Nazi activities.
dan tritter
and two out of three were outright liars. karajan joined the nazi party
twice, in salzburg [before anschluss] and in aachen. bohm was widely
photographed wearing a swastika armband.
porky_...@my-deja.com
dan tritter wrote:
from now on whenever I listen Wozzeck (with Fischer-Dieskau), I'll be
visualizing
Bohm conducting while wearing a swastika armband. Adds new dimension to
this opera, me thinks.
dan tritter
do we then gather that you believe bohm was not a nazi, all published
reports notwithstanding? was that widely known armband for the
elks club ?
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
question as there seem to be pictures showing him wearing one. But my
understanding is that many people...not just artists...joined the party as
an expediency. And that expediency was to stay alive! Normal everyday
people were doing it also...same reason...to stay alive.
Do we condemn Shostakovitch or Khachaturian as being a Commies because he
chose the expediency of life over death...by composing under the auspices of
the Proletariat administration?
It's a difficult question...we should all ask ourselves what we would do in
the same situation. I know...also...that a great many people chose not to
join the Nazis or wear armbands. I also know that many people are dead for
not doing so...history bears this out.
So I wouldn't be so quick to condemn people and artists living under the
extraordinary circumstances of a lunatic governmental dictatorship.
That's my 2 cents on this thread.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"dan tritter" <dtri...@speakeasy.net> wrote in message
news:kcudnf8fGLv...@speakeasy.net...
Dan
<<I'm not sure what to think. That he wore the armband is beyond
question as there seem to be pictures showing him wearing one. But my
understanding is that many people...not just artists...joined the party
as
an expediency. And that expediency was to stay alive! Normal everyday
people were doing it also...same reason...to stay alive.>>
I've read in couple of memoirs of the period that Boehm was, in fact,
quite an enthusiastic Nazi, making unprovoked adulatory comments about
the Fuehrer on at least one occasion, to the orchestra regarding some
event or other.
Also, in Boehm's case (forgive the lack of umlauts), if he really had
qualms about the regime, it would have probably been easier for him
than most ordinary people to leave with his family and find work
elsewhere.
<<Do we condemn Shostakovitch or Khachaturian as being a Commies
because he chose the expediency of life over death...by composing
under the auspices of the Proletariat administration?>>
I don't think that the two are comparable because it was possible for
Germans to leave before the war, especially, I would gather,
internationally famed musicians - as many of them did when they saw
which way things were going. This was never the case in the USSR of
the period, when no one even dared to ask because of the consequences.
<<It's a difficult question...we should all ask ourselves what we would
do in the same situation. I know...also...that a great many people
chose not to join the Nazis or wear armbands. I also know that many
people are dead for not doing so...history bears this out.>>
I also think you have to make a distinction between ordinary people
with very little clout who had to do what they had to do to stay alive
and celebrities who ended up making a personal statement about what
they were willing to do to further their career. About this, you might
want to see the movie "Mephisto" or read the book on which it is based.
Still, even if one can't condemn folks for going over to the other side
to stay alive, you can't give them much credit either when any number
of people put themselves in harms way for not doing so.
Just a thought
Dan Plante
PS - does anyone at this late date really care one way or the other
about Khatchaturian?
REG
intelligent posting than he deserves. Shostakovitch, for one, didn't join
the Communist Party until about 1960, and certainly had a difficult time, as
anyone with a modicum of education knows, to say the least, for over two
decades in the Soviet Union. To compare the situations of someone like Boehm
and Shostokovitch is idiocy (and I say this liking much of Boehm's work).
Of course, the Prokofiev situation is even more interesting, although I
don't feel ulimately that he had the same kind of inspired capacity for
music making as DS.
As to Khatchaturian, there was an interesting film about him released about
a year or so ago that showed here in New York. He filled a certain slot in
Soviet music, both as a good populist music maker and as being a
representative of the ethnic regions. It seems to me that not much survives
today other than some of the ballets, the piano concerto (ocassionally, but
more in historic performances) and some of the works for cello.
"Dan" <dplan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1104514865.1...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
where not the best...but I trust you got the gist of my intent.
The movie 'Mephisto' did get under my skin. I understand your point...it's
a pity that choices such as these had to be made at all.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:KngBd.37953$Yh2.15...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Dan
<<Actually, Dan,you probably give the original poster more credit for
an intelligent posting than he deserves. Shostakovitch, for one, didn't
join the Communist Party until about 1960, and certainly had a
difficult time, as anyone with a modicum of education knows, to say the
least, for over two decades in the Soviet Union. To compare the
situations of someone like Boehm
and Shostokovitch is idiocy (and I say this liking much of Boehm's
work).>>
Exactly. Shostakovich was caught between a rock and the proverbial
throughout his career and for me, at least, I can understand that by
1960, joining the Party showed that he no longer had the emotional
energy to live on the precipice for so long. And, having lived within
in a society essentially sealed off from the rest of the world, I'm not
sure he could have even conceived of moving to the west at such a late
date. 40's USSR was not that much unlike contemporary North Korea.
<<Of course, the Prokofiev situation is even more interesting, although
I don't feel ulimately that he had the same kind of inspired capacity
for music making as DS.>>
Prokofiev is a very curious case, since he left the France when he was
having no luck at besting Stravinsky at his own game and very little
success at all in the US and was being received with such support in
his homeland. He definitely felt that this was his best bet for his
career, ego, and, I guess to satisfy the longing to be the big man at
home. But, he really didn't have a clue as to the trap he was walking
into. They treated him as an international star until he became a
Soviet Citizen and then they slammed the door shut and made them dance
to their own tune.
As for which one is more inspired - my vote would have to go to
Prokofiev based on the consistancy of his major pre-Soviet and some of
his early Soviet works. Based on just inspiration alone, Shostakovich
is much more variable and given to empty note-spinning. Added to that,
I think that Prokofiev's technique was much more developed and
sophisticated than that of Shostakovich, who didn't have the advantage
of being able to study all the new music coming off the international
presses like Koussevitsky's RMV, but this is all because of the
critical difference of the time when they came to maturity.
Ultimately, and I'm sure everyone will disagree, Shostakovich seems to
have only two modes - cheeky, giddy and ironic, on the one hand, and
morose on the other. Prokofiev is much more varied.
The odd thing, though, is that for all his reputation as being
rebellious, Prokofiev always seemed to have a deep down desire to
please, whether it be following the Rite of Spring with his own, K-Mart
brand Sythian Suite, which I still enjoy, or the politically motivated
need to pander to Soviet Authorities to simplify in his last period.
In any case, neither was able to stamp out enough of their
personalities to make the authorities comfortable.
<<As to Khatchaturian, there was an interesting film about him released
about a year or so ago that showed here in New York. He filled a
certain slot in Soviet music, both as a good populist music maker and
as being a representative of the ethnic regions.>>
There is a musty whiff of a Soviet stamp of approval on his music that
for me makes it hard for me to listen to. A certain tackiness, I
suppose, a higher grade Fikrit Amarov. Even the orchestration live
sounds like it comes off of a mono-50s Melodiya pressing with it's
notorious fish glue used to hold the jacket together. :-)
Being a New Yorker, I missed knowing about the movie - and probably
would have seen it just due to an interest in that period of Soviet
culture that he represents. Where did it play?
<<It seems to me that not much survives today other than some of the
ballets, the piano concerto>>
On a personal note, besides the occasional Sabre Dance by way of Ed
Sullivan's Sunday night acrobats, the piano concerto was my
introduction to Khatchaturian, complete with its musical saw solo in
the slow movement. The pianist of the recording was Peter Katin (a
really nice fellow based on my correspondance with him some years
later), who later achieved a bit of notariety in the late 60s due to
his recordings of "Very Late" Liszt and Beethoven, as channeled through
Rosemary Brown, whose home they purportedly visited in order to dictate
their latest musical thoughts from beyond the grave. Remember
Rosemary?
Dan Plante
REG
comparisons, I don't know why.
Have a happy New Year.
REG
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:%LgBd.310110$HA.195074@attbi_s01...
REG
group.
One of the elements of Prokofiev's going back to Moscow was also serious
illness, which Stalin apparently offered to take care of, and which was not
unimportant to SP. Also, as youu kind of allude to, I think that Russian
artists, of that period at least, were having by and large a difficult time
adjusting to the West, and not only was the language and culture issues a
major vector, but you have to remember that the Soviet Union had been soaked
in blood since 1917, and while Stalin added to this, it wasn't as if Lenin
had been running Disneyland, so going back at that point wasn't as if SP
were entering into a world which was all that different than the world he'd
left.
I totally accept that my valuation of DS over SP is not the norm....I hear
the note spinning so often in SP's music, even in parts of the "war
sonatas", and I generally don't hear it in DS, and I know that's not the
general approach. I think that you are on to something when you talk about
SP's desire to please....something in the kinetic quality of much of his
music seems forced and "noisy" to me, and perhaps that's what I object to.
Do you really often hear a sense of sincerity in SP?? I don't.
The AK film was in fact at Film Forum less than a year ago! Not particularly
good, and if I recall correctly it was more of a hommage than anything else,
but the footage was interesting.
The two recordings I have of the AK Piano Concerto that I've ever listened
to more than once is the Mindru Katz and the Newton-Woods. I like the Katz,
and feel that his death was really a loss. I think tha t N-W's art has
pretty much eluded me. Certainly a romantic figure in terms of his life, but
I don't hear a great deal of it in the playing.
"Dan" <dplan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1104519467.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
long_ter...@yahoo.com
essays on Brahms are a must-read. The venom is spectacular!
mdhjwh
J. Teske wrote:
> On 21 Dec 2004 22:43:06 -0800, "mdhjwh" <mdh...@iprimus.com.au>
wrote:
>
> Brahms and Tschaikowsky actively disliked each other on both a
> personal and a musical level. (They did agree on the merits of Dvorak
> though, both liked him although the mild mannered Dvorak was hardly a
> threat to either one.) Brahms and Wagner was a fight seemingly
fought
> more by disciples than principals.
>
My Pet Brahms V Tschaikowsky theory has it that B hated T because he
was a homophobic & repressed closset queen. But did they ever meet face
to face ?
porky_...@my-deja.com
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> Dan: I'm not sure what to think. That he wore the armband is beyond
> question as there seem to be pictures showing him wearing one. But
my
> understanding is that many people...not just artists...joined the
party as
> an expediency. And that expediency was to stay alive! Normal
everyday
> people were doing it also...same reason...to stay alive.
>
To follow your logic, the Nazi member should have been comprised of
100% of all the adult Germans, since staying alive is quite natural
instinct of any (human) being. Which certainly wasn't the case.
A while ago I was reading the book about music in Nazi Germany (forgot
both the name and the title, but remember that the author is from
Canada). It consists of biographies of several composers. Makes very
interesting readings. He gives Hartmann as an example of composer who
hated Nazis, decided not to colloborate with them, and yet didn't have
any problems either. Just kept low profile and survived. It was those
who wanted to prosper, to make a career, pure opportunists such as Orf,
who collaborated with the regime. It's a very interesting book, well
researched.
REG
"mdhjwh" <mdh...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:1104529571.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
REG
components to be creamed over by the Nazis, and had contempt for them
through the 12 year Reich.
<porky_...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1104530497....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
SP's desire to please....something in the kinetic quality of much of his
music seems forced and "noisy" to me, and perhaps that's what I object to.
Do you really often hear a sense of sincerity in SP?? I don't."
But then there's 'Alexander Nevsky'...and for that matter...all of his
'Film' music. I hear sincerity in every single note of that opus...and then
there's 'Peter and the Wolf'...admittedly for children...but for that music
I prefer to remain a non-adult...and simply revel in the memory of the early
times of my life...when all the world was young.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BwhBd.35965$kq2....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Dan
this group.>>
I agree - it's much better than some of the posturing put downs going
back and forth that I've been reading here. This is very interesting
and enjoyable.
<<One of the elements of Prokofiev's going back to Moscow was also
serious illness, which Stalin apparently offered to take care of, and
which was not unimportant to SP.>>
I didn't realize that he had been ill. What was wrong with him at the
time? Did you know - at least this is what his son - I believe Oleg -
claimed on the Prokofiev website, was that for a while (I don't know
how long) Prokofiev was a a follower of Christian Science? It seemed
really improbable when I read it, but there it is for what it's worth.
If he was, I can't imagine it was anything more than a momentary
flirtation for the very here-and-now SP.
In any case, I've read from a lot of sources that going back to the
USSR was at the center of his talk among the Paris emigre community.
<<I think that Russian artists, of that period at least, were having by
and large a difficult time adjusting to the West, and not only was the
language and culture issues a major vector>>
No doubt you're right on this, but I think Prokofiev had a particularly
difficult time owing to several factors. First of all, his reputation
in the West was as a musical bolshevist who wrote only hard driving
factory music. As he himself remarked, this was unfair and untrue,
although his early Paris works included the 2nd Symphony and the
Scythian Suite. This, and works for Chicago like the 3rd Piano
Concerto and Love for 3 Oranges did not endear him to a relatively
unsophisticated American audience and made him very hard to market as
either a pianist or a composer.
Second, he had next to no social skills and found it nearly impossible
to be polite and discreet to nearly everyone. His wife Lina was often
left to smoothe over one gauch comment after another. This was not the
way into western art market, such as it was.
Third, while the famous Russian virtuosos with big Romantic repertoire
were having a good time with it, and many not-so-famous
musicians/composers found places to teach and have local careers, I
don't think SP fit into either those two modes of success. He had long
since stopped playing the Romantics (did you know he once had the
Rachmaninoff 1st and 2nd in his repertoire?) and he would never be
content with being a local minor master. The USSR offered him star
status, as it was doing when they were trying to lure him back. This
is what he wanted - and in the USSR he wouldn't have Stravinsky at
center stage to contend with. He was quite irked with his decidedly
junior status among the Diagilev circle, where IS was the big cheese.
<<but you have to remember that the Soviet Union had been soaked in
blood since 1917, and while Stalin added to this, it wasn't as if Lenin
had been running Disneyland, so going back at that point wasn't as if
SP were entering into a world which was all that different than the
world he'd left.>>
Of course you're right about the situation in the USSR. But from my
reading about SP, it seemed as if he had this huge capacity to put out
of his mind ANYTHING that didn't relate to him or his career. And, his
Paris friends felt him strikingly naive about the politics back home.
(This is a constant theme song in SP's biography.) Also, before he
went back for good, he was able to come and go to the USSR as he
pleased. It seems clear from things I've read that he didn't think
that this would change. What DID change though was by the time he took
back his citizenship, it became impossible to do so. As I said, he
seemed to tell himself stories about reality that would be almost
unbelievable to the rest of us.
<<I totally accept that my valuation of DS over SP is not the norm....I
hear the note spinning so often in SP's music, even in parts of the
"war sonatas", and I generally don't hear it in DS, and I know that's
not the general approach.>>
That's quite alright. If we all valued the same things equally there
would be nothing to talk about and life would be very boring.
I won't argue that Prokofiev couldn't spin notes with the best of them,
and the amount one can put up with, I suppose, corresponds to the the
degree one likes what is being spun or what one is willing to put up
with. I'm not the biggest fan of the "war sonatas" myself. Depends on
what day I'm listening.
<<I think that you are on to something when you talk about
SP's desire to please....something in the kinetic quality of much of
his music seems forced and "noisy" to me, and perhaps that's what I
object to. Do you really often hear a sense of sincerity in SP?? I
don't.>>
Sincerity is a touchy subject, because, I think, that in the best of
all possible worlds we would like to great (good?) art to correspond
with the degree of sincerity with which it was composed. I know many
compositions who's sincerity is as painfully obvious as is it's lack of
an interesting idea and the technique to carry it out. I think we all
have our list so I won't stomp on anyone's toes by mentioning more than
one, but may I suggest that oratorio by Paul McCartney?
I do think, though, that a lot of music (great and not great) either
finds a listener receptive to it or not. There are lots of pieces that
I just don't get but on the other hand, when I heard a performance of
the Schoenberg Serenade many years ago in the midst of a lot of drecky
and forgettable stuff, to me it was like coming home and putting on my
old comfortable slippers. I really connected and could let my hair
down. Now I KNOW this is not a lot of people's reaction to
Schoenberg's Op. 24, but it was mine the summer when I was 21 and still
is.
Prokofiev was a very clever person, but as am adult human being he
seemed never to get beyond childhood in his self-centeredness and his
inability to empathize with others. He was REALLY strange in this
regard. Some are now suggesting Aspergher's Syndrome.
As for the Khatchaturian concerto, the only recording I have around is
the Kapell one, recorded early in his career when he focused on the big
showpieces. It's with Koussevitsky and the BSO. I just can't listen
to that piece anymore straight through, but if the recording has
anything to recommend itself, besides the brilliant playing of Kapell
is that they ditched the musical saw in the second movement. Sorry,
it's actually called a flexitone. And it makes me laugh every time. I
think it's called being "over the top."
Sorry this has gone on so long, but I've been having a great time.
Dan Plante
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Bruckner's music. Perhaps because of his devotion to Wagner...I'm not sure.
But there were a more than a few famous composers who were not allowed into
the church for Bruckner's funeral mass...they were not deemed important
enough...Hugo Wolf being one...and maybe Brahms...my memory's a bit rusty on
this. But...once again...'Irony' takes the day!
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:56mBd.35998$kq2....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Dan
was a homophobic & repressed closset queen. But did they ever meet face
to face ?>>
I'm not sure that Brahms was exactly in a position to look down on
other's sexual proclivities, shall we say, but it has been always my
understanding that Brahms actually admired a good bit of the
Tchaikovsky Fifth Symphony, but told him that he felt that the last
movement was weak, especially in its turning of the first movement
theme from minor into a triumphant major. He felt it just didn't work
- to use contemporary jargon. Apparently, PT wasn't great at dealing
with criticism and as a result got defensive about it.
Dan Plante
REG
the Wolf, which is actually one of the pieces of music I am fondest of, bar
none.
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:HvmBd.311007$HA.179039@attbi_s01...
Matthew B. Tepper
to be typed in news:BwhBd.35965$kq2....@twister.nyc.rr.com:
> One of the elements of Prokofiev's going back to Moscow was also serious
> illness, which Stalin apparently offered to take care of, and which was
> not unimportant to SP.
One story I heard was that Prokofiev had ammassed heavy gambling debts in
the West, and he fled home in order to escape the consequences.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Take THAT, Daniel Lin, Mark Sadek, James Lin & Christopher Chung!
Matthew B. Tepper
> And of course the great dissenter was Kna, who had all the "genetic"
> components to be creamed over by the Nazis, and had contempt for them
> through the 12 year Reich.
But then the similarly-qualified Fritz Busch hot-tailed it out of there.
Matthew B. Tepper
> Yes, I agree on Alexander Nevsky and of course R&J and most of all Peter
> and the Wolf, which is actually one of the pieces of music I am fondest
> of, bar none.
May I respectfully suggest that, if you're going to make only a three-line
comment, you consider clipping at least some of the 150+ lines from the
preceding posts?
REG
Brahm's Violin Concerto....something like, "he builds a brilliant pedestal,
and then just puts a second pedestal on top of it". So I think you're right
that at least as much of the acrimony may have been originating with Tchai.
"Dan" <dplan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1104543175....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
REG
though I don't know what would have been all that treatable in the 30s;
could it have been TB?. I have avoided so far trying to tackle the two
volume SP biography that's been coming out, but I'd known, and forgotten,
that he'd traveled back and forth for some period before finally returning
back to the Soviet Union, but I think there was some issue with him going
back and forth in connection with his family....had he left them there, or
was it that they couldn't return with him?
In any case, I wish I had more to contribute here, but I don't.
I do think I offered a bit of a poisoned bon-bon with the issue of
sincerity. I suppose I could try to recover by referring to SP's need to
publish a great deal of socialist realism music, but the same was true for
everyone, including DS.
The issue that's never really been addressed enough, or at least that I
don't understand enough, is the place that music had in Stalin's world. I
think it pretty well established by now that DS, for one, owed his survival
at several points to his ability to do film score work, and I don't know how
much of that SP did (other than Nevsky, which Jon Stozek has just reminded
me of). But I don't know if we'll ever understand at this remove, and from
the outside, what it would have been like to be an artist in the Soviet
Union, particularly during Stalin's period. There's no frame of reference,
at least for me.
Best, and I hope you stay around for the New Year
REG
"Dan" <dplan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1104542463.6...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
REG
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy兀earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns95D0B3732C6...@207.217.125.201...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Shostakovitch lived with a great fear of suddenly disappearing...as did a
number of artists during Stalin's regime...and was somewhat paranoid. It
took a monumental power of sheer will-power on DS's part...to persevere...to
survive as a person and as an artist. Witness his 5th symphony
which...while going through the wrenching psychological first 3
movements...comes to the life-affirming 4th movement and a true triumph of
the will.
Perhaps Prokofiev managed to rise above that level of paranoia also by his
power of mind...or that he was oblivious to the dangers which were an
everyday occurrence under Stalin and his murderous thugs. I think at some
point...the mind simply snaps and refuses to believe the
unthinkable...especially when the unthinkable kicks you in the stomach
everyday of you life. I don't know...I can merely conjecture...but I have a
great respect for those artists who did survive the almost unimaginable
mental & physical horror of their individual times.
By the way...to change the mood a bit...this thread has been one of the most
utterly delightful I've ever experienced on RMO. It's so reassuring to know
that simple conversation on these topics can be held to a reasonable level
of acceptability and intelligence...and in a somewhat reverent spirit.
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
(aka 'ersatz egghead')
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:yqnBd.36008$kq2....@twister.nyc.rr.com...
dan tritter
no,reg, the greatest dissenter was fritz busch, a genuinely great
conductor in mid-career (1933) who was not jewish, but denounced the
party and left germany forever, to become the founding conductor at
glyndebourne, to bring greatness to teatro colon, and to lead some
indelible performances at the met and elsewhere. his death in 1951
was a tragedy for all of us.
Peter T. Daniels
>
> "REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> appears to have caused the following letters
> to be typed in news:l8nBd.36005$kq2....@twister.nyc.rr.com:
>
> > Yes, I agree on Alexander Nevsky and of course R&J and most of all Peter
> > and the Wolf, which is actually one of the pieces of music I am fondest
> > of, bar none.
>
> May I respectfully suggest that, if you're going to make only a three-line
> comment, you consider clipping at least some of the 150+ lines from the
> preceding posts?
Why don't you snip the other newsgroups _before_ you make your remarks?
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Matthew B. Tepper
> Kna was taller :)
Fritz had better complexion. ;--)
Dan
Peter and the Wolf, which is actually one of the pieces of music I am
fondest of, bar none.>>
Reg: Of the Soviet works besides those you mention, I think that the
Sixth Symphony is really underrated, although I know that it doesn't
have the kind of appeal that AN, R&J, and Peter have. What I don't
particularly care about the Soviet works is the turn toward
simplification and courseness his orchestration took, although there
even complaints about how "complicated" his orchestration was during
the original production of R&J.
Of the works I like best are the ones from the 20s, including the
concertos 1 & 2, Syms. 2 & 3, the Gambler, and despite the cheese
factor, the Scythian Suite. His early Parisian neo-classic period from
the late 20s provided some nice works too, like the 5th sonata and 3rd
and 4th concertos. As for the ballets (except R&J and Cincerella) and
the later Soviet operas, I'm not so hot about. But, I suppose when you
consider that during this time he was living with his common law wife
and her family in a vaguely heated three-room apartment, where he
composed all this stuff you begin to wonder how he could have done
anything in that situation.
In any case, for those interest in staged productions of Romeo and
Juiliet and live in NY, you shouldn't miss the American Ballet Theater
when they do it at the Met. It's really great. What is not really
great though is the freelance orchestra which starts out sounding like
a mid-level high school orchestra sight-reading and goes down from
there. Well, that was a few seasons ago.
Dan Plante
Dan
<<I don't recall the illness, but want to say it was some kind of
cancer, though I don't know what would have been all that treatable in
the 30s; could it have been TB?. I have avoided so far trying to tackle
the two volume SP biography that's been coming out, but I'd known, and
forgotten, that he'd traveled back and forth for some period before
finally returning back to the Soviet Union, but I think there was some
issue with him going back and forth in connection with his
family....had he left them there, or was it that they couldn't return
with him?>>
I can't claim to be an SP expert either, but from my reading (mainly
Robinson but others too) I know that SP was getting a lot of
commissions and other professional opportunities from the USSR during
the late French period (more interest than from the West, which by that
time was undergoing its neoclassic period)and that Miaskovsky was
keeping him posted on what was going on back home. I've never read
anything about health issues during this period, although he suffered
from severe hypertension in the last years of his life. And, was the
state of USSR medicine in poverty-stricken Stalinist Russia an
attraction?
Regarding family, I don't think it might have been that. SP was an only
child and both his parents had passed on by that point. His father
when he was young, in fact. And, as a child it was mostly him and his
mother alone in St. Petersburg (dad stayed home to make money).
Besides, he wasn't terribly sentimental about these kinds of things -
having left his wife and kids without giving them a lot of
consideration during the period - and then divorcing her, knowingly
leaving her, as a foreigner with foreign contacts, to the tender
mercies of the KGB and, ultimately, to the Gulag, where she spent a
good number of years.
This, however, is just off the top of my head and I wouldn't bet my
unemployment check on it. My memory was never what it used to be.
But, no matter what one thinks of them as people or as artists, as you
said, it's pretty impossible to really know what it was like to be an
artist in the USSR during the Stalinist period, and besides a few whose
behavior was unforgiveable (like Khrenikov, who Lina Prokofiev
evidently had a heart big enough to forgive), it must have been
unbelievably horrible. And, like you, I find this period very
interesting.
Best wishes and best of health to you, too, for the new year. I'm
sure, like all sensible New York natives you were nowhere near Time
Square last night.
Dan Plante
Dan Koren
>
> Do we condemn Shostakovitch or Khachaturian as
> being a Commies because he chose the expediency
> of life over death...
Your analogy is inappropriate.
Boehm, Karajan and Furtwaengler
were not at risk for their lives
had they not joined the party.
dk
alci...@aol.com
Oh, yes! I have one or two cuts on cassette, and they make great party
(not Nazi) records. The "Tristan Rag" composed by the ghost of Wagner
after getting chummy with the ghost of Joplin (Scott, not Janis) is
hilarious. I also recall the Kodaly Buttocks Pressing Song, a folksong
transcription celebrating an obscure folk custom, "comminicated" by
the Hungarian composer's spirit after mishearing a request for "Could I
But Express In Song". I wish I had bought those Rosemary Brown LPs
back when -- have they ever made it to CD? I never realized they were
the work of Katin. There was another musical medium (not Menotti's)
IIRC, who actually claimed to be channeling the greats. Can't recall
her name. I suppose Katin's was a spoof of her.
Matthew B. Tepper
in news:1104617023.2...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
You're confusing Rosemary Brown (who joined her compatriots in the other
world last year, I think), her book and her two LPs (one available in Japan
only) with a one-sided *comedy LP* entitled "Rosemary Brown Psychs Again"
that was issued by David Canfield of Ars Antiqua Records many years ago.
Evidently Mrs. Brown was sincere in her belief that the spirits of Liszt,
Chopin, and other departed composers spoke to her and even dictated their
compositions to her. While these works sometimes demonstrate remarkable
pianistic writing, they are short, ambling, and generally pointless. The
American LP on Philips (with its glowing-green cover design) had one side
of works played by Mrs. Brown, one by Peter Katin. I have corresponded
with Mr. Katin occasionally but don't think I ever discussed this with him.
The "Tristan Rag," "Kodaly's Buttocks-Pressing Song" and other silly-named
works were off the Canfield LP. In particular, I thought the "Tristan
Rag" was a terrific send-up, more so even than "Souvenirs de Munich."
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
You know this...why? Because you were there? Because you knew them...and
they told you this...or perhaps some Gestapo stooge told this to you.
I simply don't understand how you can make such a blanket statement as to
"were not at risk for their live had they not joined the part". Just how
the hell would you know that?
--
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Dan Koren" <dank...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41d7063c$1...@news.meer.net...
REG
as the earlier pieces you mention. In fact, I've just put on the Jarvi 2 and
3....do you have specific recommendations of performances you like? That
would be appreciated.
The other point you raise is of course one that flies in the face of
everything we know about artistry in the West....that is, the almost
impossible (for us) conditions under which works were created and then
performed. Leaving aside music, the first time we went to St P, we went to
see Akmatova's lodgings....it's incredible to see how she lived. And for
performers it wasn't necessarily much better...if you weren't teaching at a
university, you were essentially done for, and when people in the West think
about "concert careers" of Soviet artists, I think they're largely misled.
There were no big fees, often not fees at all, and little for recordings.
The situation has changed somewhat for those artists who can not leave
Russia, but just last year we heard a concert at the Great Hall of the
Conservatory of Moscow with Constantine Lifshitz, and tickets were about two
bucks a piece. So you can imagine what he got from that.
Look forward very much to your recommendations.
Best
REG
"Dan" <dplan...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1104607024.8...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Dan
<<Dan, thank you. I am going to get the 6th and give it a real listen,
as well as the earlier pieces you mention. In fact, I've just put on
the Jarvi 2 and 3....do you have specific recommendations of
performances you like? That
would be appreciated.>>
As for current recordings I wish I could be more positive. I've only
heard the Jarvi 2nd once but I recall that the piece was a more than
the Scottish orchestra could control dynamically. It's just noisy - and
they fudge a lot too. It's a hard piece to pull off because the first
movement is heavily scored and is both extreme and relentless in its
dynamics. The trick is, I think, to play it with a large degree of
elegence and a concern for tone to cut through the texture and to give
the entire thing a bit more flexibility and range of color. Otherwise
it tends to be rather headache-producing.
My favorite for both 2 and 6 has always been the Leinsdorf/BSO
recordings but RCA has never issued it on CD. It's a shame because the
BSO was still a great orchestra at that and played with such beauty and
control.
The theme and epilog of the second movement is really gorgeous and it
really shows what a great orchestrator with a spectacular ear SP was at
this time. As for the BSO, I've always felt that their Piano Concerto
cycle with John Browning was a model in playing those pieces.
Recently I got a recording of 2 and 3 with Rozhdestvensky and the USSR
Radio and TV Large Symphony Orchestra recently that wasn't too bad - it
was the Consonance label. As for No. 3, I still like Muti/Philadelphia
(Philips), I think for the same reason I like the the BSO ones, they
refuse to make ugly sounds and have great control. That may not be
still around, however. Not many single recordings of 2, 3,4, 6, and 7.
But you know, all in all, the VOX Martinon set for just a couple bucks
is actually quite decent throughout, and while the orchestra isn't the
BSO in its glory days, Martinon is very musical throughout and has
control over all of the pieces. They're quite musical - no headaches.
I think I saw them the other day on the bargain CD wall at the 4th and
Broadway Tower Records.
Still, I pine over the old Leinsdorf/BSO ones, though I have to admit
the 5th Symphony was a tad understated.
<<the first time we went to St P, we went to see Akmatova's
lodgings....it's incredible to see how she lived. And for
performers it wasn't necessarily much better...if you weren't teaching
at a university, you were essentially done for, and when people in the
West think about "concert careers" of Soviet artists, I think they're
largely misled.>>
It hurts to even think about it. What you say reminds me of a
conversation I had with a fellow Russian graduate student who told me
the same thing. Basically if you were Richter, Gilels or Oistrakh you
had it not too badly, but if you were anyone else, you lived a pretty
bare-bones existence. And, the thing was, and not to knock R, G, or O,
the level of your career was determined by the musical establishment
you trained in not by the interest you were able to drum up on your own
by your own wits and talent. You were tracked from your conservatory
days.
As it turns out, I may (just may) be teaching in Moscow at some point
in the future. Nothing but talk at the moment and it may not go
anywhere. I've never been there, although I have Russian aquaintances
and American friends who have visited. I can't even imagine what it
must be like to live there. Please tell me (or e-mail me if you have a
moment) about your visit. I'm really curious.
Dan Plante
El Klauso
Positions were given him in the NS, ( and later taken away...) but I
have not read in the three or four bios I have consumed that he was a
party member.
Can anyone prove the assertion?
REG
"El Klauso" <Kla...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1104711732.3...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Larry Rinkel
aside, surely one of the great mutual hatreds in opera was between the
sopranos Faustina Bordoni and Francesca Cuzzoni, who were engaged by Handel
to sing "Admeto" in 1727, but whose rivalry culminated in a hair-pulling,
fist-fighting brawl onstage during a performance of Bononcini's
"Astianatte." A year later John Gay satirized their rivalry in "The Beggar's
Opera" by having his beggar-writer give equal time onstage to Polly Peachum
and Lucy Lockit: "As to the Parts, I have observed such a nice Impartiality
to our two Ladies that it is impossible for either of them to take Offence."
(In fact Polly has a considerably larger role.)
It is almost as good as the back-biting between Tebaldi and Callas.
capa0...@aol.com
After wading through it quickly, I'm surprised that no one has
mentioned what is unquestionably the greatest and longest-running
musical controversy in history - the eighteenth century conflict
between the followers of the French and Italian styles that the French
came to call 'La Querelle (or 'La Guerre') des Bouffons' -- the
bouffons being supporters of Italian opera buffa.
The pamphlet 'war' began after a brilliantly successful production in
Paris of Pergolesi's "La Serva Padrona" in 1752, with tout le beau
monde taking sides. Louis XV and his conservative courtiers took the
side of the musical conventions then in vogue in Paris, while the
Queen, Diderot, Rousseau, and other intellectuals plead the cause of
the Italian innovators, whose opera buffa gave the 'war' its name.
Jean Jacques Rousseau loved nothing better than an intellectual
controversy, and as a sometime opera composer himself ( "Le Devin du
Village") threw himself whole-heartedly into this one.
The controversy continued at a fever pitch for a time, and then cooled
down for a number of years, until Gluck came along in the 1770's and
challenged the Italian style once again with his new approach to opera,
and the controversy (or its stepchild) erupted all over again, with the
followers of Gluck and Piccini once again splitting Paris into two
warring camps.
By this time, curiously, Rousseau had changed sides, and became the
principal spokesman for Gluck, while Marmontel -- who had described
Gluck's music's 'harsh and rugged harmony, incoherent modulations, and
incongruities, mutilations ... " and so forth, carried the Italian
standard.
"Women and men alike entered the fray," a baroness wrote in her diary.
"Such passion and fury were aroused that people had to be separated.
Friends and even lovers quarreled on this account." A Madame
Riccoboni wrote to David Garrick, the greatest actor of the time, "They
are tearing each others eyes out, for or against Gluck."
The director of L'Opera, seizing on the publicity, quickly commissioned
both Gluck and Piccini to write an opera on the subject of Iphigeneia
en Tauride, so that the two operas could be presented in quick
succession, and Paris could make its judgment.
Gluck's "Iphigeneia" debuted in triumph a short time later. "I know
not," wrote Melchior Grimm (he might well be the father of the famous
brothers who were born just a few years later) "whether what we have
heard is melody. Perhaps it is something even better. I forget the
opera and find myself in a Greek tragedy."
After Gluck's triumph, Piccini tried to back out of the contest, but he
was held to his contract. His opera followed shortly thereafter, but
was a fiasco, leaving the French stage in the possession of Gluck, the
forester's son from Erasbach -- the first of the three Germans whose
work was to captivate Paris over the next hundred years.
"The works of Gluck" reported 'La Mercure' a short time later, "are
about the only fortune of operatic music."
Those were the days,eh?
Pat