Andre Previn and George Szell
Dontait...@aol.com
which I just responded, reminded me of a great story that Previn has
told and is also contained in Donald Rosenberg's history of the
Cleveland Orchestra.
At some point, Szell wanted to program Richard Strauss's Burleske.
He decided that perhaps Previn would be a good choice to play the
piano part, and asked him to meet him. As Previn told the story, he
went to see Szell in a hotel. So he must have been on tour.
Previn said that after initial conversation, Szell asked Previn to
play the piano part. Previn looked around. There was no piano to be
seen. He said so and asked how he could play it. Szell replied that
Previn should play it on the top of the table at which they were
sitting. Szell would watch Previn's "playing" and evaluate it. So
Previn, thinking it was perhaps a bit weird, did. At some point,
Szell stopped him. He said Previn was not "playing" the part
correctly. To which Previn replied
"I'm sorry. I've never played this table before."
Szell said "young man, that will be all!" and threw him out.
End of Andre Previn with George Szell.
Don Tait
td
Szell was an idiot.
Previn has real wit.
I prefer wit to idiocy.
TD
Gerard
Didn't Previn say also something like "I play it much better on the table at
home"?
Dontait...@aol.com
Perhaps. I'll try to check.
Don Tait
M forever
I hope it's not a real story. It makes Szell really look like an
idiot. I wonder who told it? Szell or Previn? Or was there someone
else in the room?
richard reichle
<21db22df-8995-43d8...@g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Dontait...@aol.com wrote:
> On Sep 29, 4:20?pm, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Dontaitchic...@aol.com wrote:
> > > ? Matthew's recent post about Previn and the mistuned orchestra, to
> > > which I just responded, reminded me of a great story that Previn has
> > > told and is also contained in Donald Rosenberg's history of the
> > > Cleveland Orchestra.
> >
> > > ? At some point, Szell wanted to program Richard Strauss's Burleske.
> > > He decided that perhaps Previn would be a good choice to play the
> > > piano part, and asked him to meet him. As Previn told the story, he
> > > went to see Szell in a hotel. So he must have been on tour.
> >
> > > ? Previn said that after initial conversation, Szell asked Previn to
> > > play the piano part. Previn looked around. There was no piano to be
> > > seen. He said so and asked how he could play it. Szell replied that
> > > Previn should play it on the top of the table at which they were
> > > sitting. Szell would watch Previn's "playing" and evaluate it. So
> > > Previn, thinking it was ?perhaps a bit weird, did. At some point,
> > > Szell stopped him. He said Previn was not "playing" the part
> > > correctly. To which Previn replied
> >
> > > ? "I'm sorry. I've never played this table before."
> >
> > > ? Szell said "young man, that will be all!" and threw him out.
> > > End of Andre Previn with George Szell.
> >
> > > ? Don Tait
> >
> > Didn't Previn say also something like "I play it much better on the table at
> > home"?
>
> Perhaps. I'll try to check.
>
> Don Tait
I thought it was along the lines of "I'm used to a table with better
action."
William Sommerwerck
>> the part correctly. To which Previn replied "I'm sorry.
>> I've never played this table before."
>> Szell said "young man, that will be all!" and threw
>> him out. End of Andre Previn with George Szell.
> I hope it's not a real story. It makes Szell really look like
> an idiot. I wonder who told it? Szell or Previn? Or was there
> someone else in the room?
I doubt Szell was an idiot (musically, anyway). More like someone without a
sense of humor.
Pianists commonly practice on silent keyboards. If Szell was a good pianist
(was he?), he should have been able to judge how Previn was "playing".
I'm wondering who "played" the tympanum part during this audition.
M forever
wrote:
> >> Szell stopped him. He said Previn was not "playing"
> >> the part correctly. To which Previn replied "I'm sorry.
> >> I've never played this table before."
> >> Szell said "young man, that will be all!" and threw
> >> him out. End of Andre Previn with George Szell.
> > I hope it's not a real story. It makes Szell really look like
> > an idiot. I wonder who told it? Szell or Previn? Or was there
> > someone else in the room?
>
> I doubt Szell was an idiot (musically, anyway). More like someone without a
> sense of humor.
He may or may not have had a sense of humor, but this story actually
makes him look like someone deeply insecure. Apparently he saw
Previn's reply as flippant or rude. You can probably judge that better
than I can, after all, you are an expert on the subject.
> Pianists commonly practice on silent keyboards. If Szell was a good pianist
> (was he?), he should have been able to judge how Previn was "playing".
Still a silly story (if it is true).
So what's the story with Previn and the mistuned orchestra?
William Sommerwerck
> actually makes him look like someone deeply insecure.
> Apparently he saw Previn's reply as flippant or rude. You can
> probably judge that better than I can, after all, you are an expert
> on the subject.
One mark of social intelligence is the willingness to consider that other
people's criticism might have value.
Anonymous
Charlie
Dontait...@aol.com
As I wrote, it's a true story. Previn told it. But here is how it is
told on page 316 of Donald Rosenberg's history of the Cleveland
Orchestra (Gray and Company, Cleveland, 2000). Here's an exact
transcript:
"Szell had never met Previn, so Columbia {Records] set up a meeting
when Szell was in Los Angeles for concerts with the Philharmonic.
Previn arrived at Szell's room at the Beverly Wilshire Hotel and
engaged in small talk. Then Szell said, "Well, let's go through the
piece." One problem: the room had no piano. Szell proceeded to tell
Previn to play the piece on a table. "Well, I was still young and
inexperienced, I suppose, and in awe of the great conductor, so I
didn't walk out," recalled Previn. "I sat down and started whacking
away at this table." Soon Szell stopped him. "No, no, no. It needs to
be faster." He wasn't kidding. Nor, perhaps, was Previn. "Well,
maestro, the reason it sounds so slow is that I'm simply not used to
this table. My dining room table at home has a much better action."
With that, Szell dismissed him -- "I don't consider that funny, young
man. You may go" -- and the recording was off.
Again, Rosenberg, page 316.
My first message didn't quote it exactly, for which I apologise.
No; this evidently was not made up.
Don Tait
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
This was not an audition with orchestra. It was with Szell in his
hotel in Los Angeles.
I've just posted the story.
Don Tait
William Sommerwerck
>> a good pianist (was he?), he should have been able to judge
>> how Previn was "playing".
>> I'm wondering who "played" the tympanum part during this
>> audition.
> This was not an audition with orchestra. It was with Szell
> in his hotel in Los Angeles.
Mr. Tait, why is it necessary to explain a obvious joke (or wry wisecrack,
if one prefers)?
The "Burlesque" has a prominent part for tympanum. Indeed, the main theme is
stated right at the opening on the tympanum. The word "played" was in
quotes.
M forever
wrote:
I agree - which is why I offered in the recent discussion about
HaydnHouse's psychic connection to Bruckner to consider that I may
have misunderstood your comments and how they came across, and I
invited you to do the same to bring the discussion back. However, you
simply completely ignored that because it apparently was outside your
mental capabilities to consider that you might have misunderstood my
comments and tone. Even after other, neutral posters pointed that out,
too.
You also complete failed to address any of the factual points I had
made, even though I gave you the opportunity several times over to
bring the discussion back to a more friendly level.
So, by your own definition and example, you have shown that you have
no real social intelligence. Just being offended easily is not a sign
of social intelligence. On the contrary, it often shows immaturity in
that respect.
Of course, it is easy to read and repeat a sentence like "one mark of
social intelligence is the willingness to consider that other people's
criticism might have value" without actually understanding that. So
please don't kid yourself - you may think of yourself as socially
intelligent and sensitive, but you aren't at all. You are just
emotionally immature and easily offended.
The most basic aspect of social intelligence, even more basic than
that, is to be able to consider that one might have misunderstood
somebody else's intentions and attitude. I offered you a chance to
consider that in a friendly manner, but you failed to pick up that
offer.
Gerard
O my goodness, there he goes again (thinking that HE is a wonder of "social
intelligence").
OTOH there cannot be any doubt about your tone.
M forever
Thanks for looking this up. It only just occurred to me that I
actually have that book. I became aware of and bought it when
Rosenberg was taken off his Cleveland Orchestra beat. The story is
indeed given on p.316 as you quote it. It doesn't say though what the
alleged source is. But that's OK. It's just a small story, so I don't
think any of us will lose any sleep over how authentic it is or not.
Still, if it is true, it shows Szell in a rather sad light.
O
<38b8db1f-1503-48c0...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
<Dontait...@aol.com> wrote:
Well, Previn might have made it up, as it's apparent that Previn is the
source to Rosenberg as well. Szell certainly isn't around to deny it.
What gives me doubts about it is the thought that they couldn't find a
piano in the Beverly Wilshire? Most of the 4 star hotels I've stayed
in lately (thank you, Priceline) seem to have at least a grand in the
lobby.
-Owen
Kip Williams
> Pianists commonly practice on silent keyboards. If Szell was a good pianist
> (was he?), he should have been able to judge how Previn was "playing".
He was a good enough pianist to record a Mozart piano quartet with
members of the Budapest Quartet. I have it on 78s, though I don't
believe I've ever taken it out and played it. My 78 turntable is usually
stuck away somewhere, except when I'm dubbing disks on it.
Kip W
Kip Williams
>>> Szell stopped him. He said Previn was not "playing"
>>> the part correctly. To which Previn replied "I'm sorry.
>>> I've never played this table before."
>>> Szell said "young man, that will be all!" and threw
>>> him out. End of Andre Previn with George Szell.
>
>> I hope it's not a real story. It makes Szell really look like
>> an idiot. I wonder who told it? Szell or Previn? Or was there
>> someone else in the room?
>
They probably used a tab'la.
Kip W
Matthew�B.�Tepper
letters to be typed in news:Zwzwm.211864$sC1....@newsfe17.iad:
I read somewhere that Szell's "party piece" was his own reduction of Strauss'
"Till Eulenspiegel," and that he achieved the ratchet effect by scraping his
cufflinks across the keys. (That would make two 20th century maestros who
had a cufflink ritual. I'll leave it as an exercise for you or someone else
to reveal who the other one was.)
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
Read about "Proty" here: http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/proty.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of my employers
Bob Harper
> Just being offended easily is not a sign of social intelligence.
> On the contrary, it often shows immaturity in that respect.
Hmmm.
Bob Harper
Kevin P. Mostyn
--
Kevin Mostyn
___________
My real e-mail address is my first name at my last name dot com
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9C95D41ADFA...@216.168.3.30...
herman
And the Mozart sonatas with Szigeti.
This anecdote is "as told by" Previn, and there's not much chance of
reliability, as Previn apparently wanted to show he was witty and
Szell was an idiot.
There are probably as many anecdotes to be made showing Previn is an
idiot. His marital history should provide plenty of fodder.
jrsnfld
It's a fun story (thanks, Don!) that does credit to the legends of
both men. As such, I'm not sure I care if it's true or unbiased.
--Jeff
wanwan
I'd be wary of Rosenberg. There's a least one story in the book he
tells that has the wrong people involved. (regarding Myron Bloom's
appointment as principal by Szell.)
--------
Eric
td
wrote:
I am unaware of a table which functions as a "silent keyboard".
TD
td
Nothing idiotic about Previn's marriages, even the last one. "Take me
to the heights, Daddy!"
TD
td
You mean he made a mistake?
Oooooooooooooo. Unforgiveable.
At least by Jesus? Is that you?
TD
Rugby
> What gives me doubts about it is the thought that they couldn't find a
> piano in the Beverly Wilshire? Most of the 4 star hotels I've stayed
> in lately (thank you, Priceline) seem to have at least a grand in the
> lobby.
Szell using a "lobby" piano ?! I doubt he so lower himself.
Rugby
William Sommerwerck
>> that other people's criticism might have value.
> I agree - which is why I offered in the recent discussion about
> HaydnHouse's psychic connection to Bruckner to consider that
> I may have misunderstood your comments and how they came
> across, and I invited you to do the same to bring the discussion
> back. However, you simply completely ignored that because it
> apparently was outside your mental capabilities to consider that
> you might have misunderstood my comments and tone. Even
> after other, neutral posters pointed that out, too.
Another mark of social intelligence is not impugning other people's
"intelligence" or good will, simply because they disagree with you.
My original posts, as I remember, included an impersonal wisecrack about
Bruckner's relationship with God (which you failed to get), followed by
criticism of your highly rude response to someone who disagreed with your
"factual" statements about how Bruckner would or would not want his works
performed. That's it. I had nothing else in mind, including anything
connected with the correctness of any of your statements.
It is not my place to suggest that you are obliged to meet some arbitrary
standard of social behavior. But it's clear that all you see is yourself,
and you believe that anyone who reacts badly to the way you speak is lacking
in intelligence, or indulging in a perverse personal attack. Contrary to
what you say, I was not the only person bothered by your tone.
The issue is not what you meant -- it is, as I said, the way you expressed
yourself. I said this before, and gave an example of how you might have said
exactly the same thing without ruffling anyone's feathers, but you have
deliberately ignored it, converting criticism of tone into criticism of
content.
"So, by your own definition and example, you have shown that
you have no real social intelligence. Just being offended easily
is not a sign of social intelligence. On the contrary, it often
shows immaturity in that respect."
These are the comments of someone I would not consider particularly
rational. Does "Captain Queeg" ring a bell?
I've spent too much time on this. Grow up.
William Sommerwerck
>> during this audition.
> They probably used a tab'la.
Ah. Someone who got the joke -- and came back with something even better.
William Sommerwerck
>> a good pianist (was he?), he should have been able to judge
>> how Previn was "playing".
> I am unaware of a table which functions as a "silent keyboard".
A fair point. A silent keyboard has mechanical feedback lacking in a flat
piece of wood.
O
<54029d64-72d3-414e...@t32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
Rugby <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:
A lobby piano vs. a hotel table?
-Owen
Allen
Allen
Matthew�B.�Tepper
> Bernstein (the Koussevitzky cufflinks)
Of course that is the correct answer. Lenny would kiss each cufflink (a gift
from his mentor) before going on stage.
mark
he did with Paul Myers on a CBS disc and tell me he didn't have a
sense of humor.
Let's assume the story is true in every detail and that it was relayed
by Previn. How does the story put Szell in a bad light? Only if one
considers it in a vacuum. Maybe Szell was having a bad day. Maybe he
was extremely tired from traveling. Maybe Previn was squeezed into an
extremely tight Szell schedule and Szell felt he had no time for small
talk and frivolity. He may simply have been in no mood for joking.
Maybe he was simply taken back that some young pup had the balls to
challenge him at this late stage of his career. Who knows?
The point is that to see Szell in a bad light here, one needs to make
numerous assumptions and then jump to conclusions. I would imagine the
conclusions jumped to will reflect each reader's existing prejudices.
mark
> In article
> <54029d64-72d3-414e-8db9-a0b32503a...@t32g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Rugby <steveha...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 29, 9:36 pm, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
>
> > > What gives me doubts about it is the thought that they couldn't find a
> > > piano in the Beverly Wilshire? Most of the 4 star hotels I've stayed
> > > in lately (thank you, Priceline) seem to have at least a grand in the
> > > lobby.
>
> > Szell using a "lobby" piano ?! I doubt he so lower himself.
>
> A lobby piano vs. a hotel table?
>
> -Owen
Considering the lobby pianos I've encountered, I would think that the
hotel table's wood veneer was in better shape than any lobby
hotel...and that it might also be better in tune than the lobby
piano. ;)
mark
>
> Nothing idiotic about Previn's marriages, even the last one.
>
> TD
I don't blame Previn for marrying the much-younger-than-he AS Mutter.
Name a single straight male who would not jump at the chance to do so!
For that matter, there may well be any number of not-so-straights who
would jump at such a chance, male and female included. The woman is as
close to a goddess as one could hope to encounter in the classical
music world. Plus, she plays the fiddle real good.
El Klauso
had a cufflink ritual. I'll leave it as an exercise for you or
someone else
to reveal who the other one was.
Boom-boom.
EK
mark
Lenny would kiss each cufflink (a gift
> from his mentor) before going on stage.
>
do condoms or suppositories...
hiker_rs
well, cufflinks are better than a pistol in the back pocket (as in
Rodzinski)
td
IK could not disagree more, Mark.
Szell's summary dismissal of a pianist with the reputation of AP was a
clear attempt to put down someone of talent. Indeed, in my opinion,
Previn is a genius and Szell a good kapellmeister. Seen from that
standpoint, his behaviour is childish, ill-mannered and dictatorial.
Perhaps he thought Previn was one of his skulking musicians.
TD
td
Having met the woman, I would have to remove myself from your list,
Mark. ASM is about as cold and calculating a woman as I have ever met.
I prefer to go to bed with an icicle, frankly.
But AP must have seen something in her, or she in him. ("Daddy,
dearest!"). Fundamentally, relationships are always inscrutable.
TD
td
Speaking of Rodzinski, his son Richard has resigned or retired from
the Van Cliburn Competition as of today.
TD
William Sommerwerck
> AS Mutter. Name a single straight male who would not jump
> at the chance to do so!
I don't know. I always kinda thought Andy was gay.
mark
I would hold that it's a bit unfair to judge as we don't have Szell's
side of the story. Anything that one can infer from the story is
biased by the "standpoint" of the wronged individual who told the
story.
mark
Well, there's such a fine line between cold and reserved.
In what respect is she calculating? If it's in the business end of her
career, then I say, more power to her. I don't find her music making
calculated, and I thought she had the reputation of being a good
mother to her kids.
Maybe that's what Previn saw in her. Beyond that, she is eye candy of
a very high order.
graham
"mark" <markst...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3d762197-e534-4574...@a37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
----------------------------------------------------------
Who cares!!!! It's a good story so leave it at that!
Graham
mark
> "mark" <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I care.
Some would consider it "a good story" to aver that Obama was born in
Kenya, rather than Hawaii. I'd consider it a lie, and a lie being used
to advance a political agenda.
The Previn/Szell story under discussion seems a weak attempt to
bolster people's existing image of Szell as a humorless martinet.
There are other "good stories" that circulate in the classical music
world, such as the received opinion that "Karajan joined the Nazi
Party - twice!" (not true). Why settle for such simple-minded, one-
sided bromides when the truth is always far more interesting?
Not all good stories are equally good, if you catch my drift.
O
<094e38dc-5795-49ac...@31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com>, td
<tomde...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Sep 30, 12:49�pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Sep 30, 2:36�am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > Nothing idiotic about Previn's marriages, even the last one.
> >
> > > TD
> >
> > I don't blame Previn for marrying the much-younger-than-he AS Mutter.
> > Name a single straight male who would not jump at the chance to do so!
> > For that matter, there may well be any number of not-so-straights who
> > would jump at such a chance, male and female included. The woman is as
> > close to a goddess as one could hope to encounter in the classical
> > music world. Plus, she plays the fiddle real good.
>
> Having met the woman, I would have to remove myself from your list,
> Mark. ASM is about as cold and calculating a woman as I have ever met.
> I prefer to go to bed with an icicle, frankly.
In that case, then there's no arguing over who sleeps in the wet spot.
-Owen
jrsnfld
I agree. It's an entertaining story.
But Mark is right to wonder why we should infer that Szell was such a
humorless ogre in this situation. Yes, the story fits the reputation
and I am almost certain Szell enjoyed playing the hard-*ss in such
situations. But also, as a conductor, you have to be able to work with
your soloist. And Szell was at a point in his career where he didn't
have to put up with anyone who would rather make a wisecrack than
discuss something as basic to a collaboration as the tempo. I think
Szell saw right away that Previn wasn't the kind of musician he wanted
to work with. He knew full well the limitations of a table; his point
was largely independent of the table.
--Jeff
O
<cdef3d29-2c55-4580...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> wrote:
> > Graham
>
> I agree. It's an entertaining story.
>
> But Mark is right to wonder why we should infer that Szell was such a
> humorless ogre in this situation. Yes, the story fits the reputation
> and I am almost certain Szell enjoyed playing the hard-*ss in such
> situations. But also, as a conductor, you have to be able to work with
> your soloist. And Szell was at a point in his career where he didn't
> have to put up with anyone who would rather make a wisecrack than
> discuss something as basic to a collaboration as the tempo. I think
> Szell saw right away that Previn wasn't the kind of musician he wanted
> to work with. He knew full well the limitations of a table; his point
> was largely independent of the table.
I think if Previn was willing to put up with the inanity of playing a
table, then Szell should have been willing to put up with the humor of
its limitations.
-Owen
herman
>
> Maybe that's what Previn saw in her. Beyond that, she is eye candy of
> a very high order.
This is based on publicity pictures involving hours and hours of
styling before, and some photoshopping after. That's not what you get
to see at the breakfast table.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
typed in news:d3b675d9-2d54-4110-b5d0-
e4935b...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
I've seen an ostensibly candid photo of her from behind, in blue jeans.
That's good enough for me.
Matthew�B.�Tepper
be typed in news:c5540a64-3dce-484e-a657-
dc8c7a...@a39g2000pre.googlegroups.com:
> I don't blame Previn for marrying the much-younger-than-he AS Mutter.
> Name a single straight male who would not jump at the chance to do so!
> For that matter, there may well be any number of not-so-straights who
> would jump at such a chance, male and female included. The woman is as
> close to a goddess as one could hope to encounter in the classical
> music world. Plus, she plays the fiddle real good.
Count me as one of her admirers. Although my first choice will always be the
heavenly Kyung-Wha Chung.
mark
You could say that about anyone, couldn't you?
In any case, certain people "clean up" better than others. From what
I've seen of Ms Mutter, she has the basic goods+ that make for a very
good clean up. I reference Matthew's comment about her modeling a pair
of denims...
jrsnfld
I agree, but Szell was pretty darn serious about music. I think he was
just testing Previn but in a way, it was a productive test because
Previn showed that he wasn't Szell's "type"--either totally obsequious
or totally serious about the music.
I have friends who wouldn't think twice about tapping on a table and
then discussing tempi. They aren't humorless. They are totally,
shamelessly committed.
--Jeff
mark
>
> I think if Previn was willing to put up with the inanity of playing a
> table, then Szell should have been willing to put up with the humor of
> its limitations.
>
You should consider the chance that Szell was unimpressed or even
distressed by the "playing" he saw Previn offering on the table top,
and that rather than being mean (honest) and telling Previn he was an
incompetent, Szell elected to make a stink over Previn's wisecrack
instead, sparing him an attack on his (Previn's) musicianship and
giving him an easy out at Szell's expense.
Perhaps Szell simply played the old break-up card ("it's not your
fault, it's my fault"). Perhaps Szell's rejection of Previn was the
catalyst that launched Previn onto the many successes of his later
years.
That COULD have been how it went down, and that's just as valid an
explanation as the more-obvious one.
Dontait...@aol.com
wrote:
> >> Pianists commonly practice on silent keyboards. If Szell was
> >> a good pianist (was he?), he should have been able to judge
> >> how Previn was "playing".
> >> I'm wondering who "played" the tympanum part during this
> >> audition.
> > This was not an audition with orchestra. It was with Szell
> > in his hotel in Los Angeles.
>
> Mr. Tait, why is it necessary to explain a obvious joke (or wry wisecrack,
> if one prefers)?
>
> The "Burlesque" has a prominent part for tympanum. Indeed, the main theme is
> stated right at the opening on the tympanum. The word "played" was in
> quotes.
I overlooked your quotation marks. My stupid, ignorant blunder.
Sorry. And yes, I'd heard somewhere that Strauss's Burleske has a
prominent timpani part. Thanks.
Don Tait
O
<c4c9771e-d242-4fca...@y10g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
jrsnfld <jrs...@aol.com> wrote:
I would think if one were "totally, shamelessly committed," they
wouldn't reduce a serious audition for a major part in a Top 5 symphony
orchestra to tapping on a table.
-Owen
O
<95a1d42a-c111-4cef...@d9g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
mark <markst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
There are probably hundreds of possible scenarios that might match the
details as we know it, and could make Szell, Previn, both or none look
foolish, depending on the circumstances. There's only one source,
Previn, and he's a man "with a sense of humor," as others here have
described him, and people with a sense of humor are prone to embellish
here and there for the maximum humor effect (present company excepted,
of course!), so we'll probably never know the real scenario, other than
it sounds fairly ridiculous, but not so much that it's beyond the realm
of possibility.
-Owen
Simon Roberts
ow...@denofinequityx.com:
>
> I think if Previn was willing to put up with the inanity of playing a
> table, then Szell should have been willing to put up with the humor of
> its limitations.
>
Perhaps.
Anyone remember a BBC2 classical music game show, Face the Music (I think),
which, among other things, usually involved the contestants having to guess
what the host, Joseph Cooper, was playing on the "silent" (it rattled quite
a bit) piano?
Simon
jrsnfld
A meeting in a hotel room is a serious audition for a pianist? (I
realize orchestral players used to audition for Top 5 orchestra jobs
in hotel rooms all the time in the pre-union days, but pianists and
soloists not so much.)
Rather, it sounds like this was a social visit arranged by managers
who were hoping for a specific result, and Szell was making the best
of the opportunity not to waste his time with someone who didn't
interest him. Likewise Previn.
--Jeff
William Sommerwerck
>>> audition.
>> This was not an audition with orchestra. It was with Szell
>> in his hotel in Los Angeles.
>> Mr. Tait, why is it necessary to explain a obvious joke (or wry
>> wisecrack, if one prefers)?
>> The "Burlesque" has a prominent part for tympanum. Indeed,
>> the main theme is stated right at the opening on the tympanum.
>> The word "played" was in quotes.
> I overlooked your quotation marks. My stupid, ignorant blunder.
> Sorry. And yes, I'd heard somewhere that Strauss's Burleske
> has a prominent timpani part. Thanks.
I apologize if I sounded unduly "rough". I have a decidedly dry sense of
humor, which not everyone catches. Not to mention the fact that printed text
lacks the vocal and physical inflections that convey humor.
Bob Lombard
Humor has to be fairly obvious to cross the usenet barrier. Even
moderately subtle stuff can evoke another meaning for the 'sense of wonder'.
bl
Taree Dawg
Precisely.
Ray Hall
Gerard
> herman <her...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following
> letters to be typed in news:d3b675d9-2d54-4110-b5d0-
> e4935b...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On 30 sep, 20:02, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Maybe that's what Previn saw in her. Beyond that, she is eye
> > > candy of a very high order.
> >
> > This is based on publicity pictures involving hours and hours of
> > styling before, and some photoshopping after. That's not what you
> > get to see at the breakfast table.
>
> I've seen an ostensibly candid photo of her from behind, in blue
> jeans. That's good enough for me.
Yeah. We've seen photos of you too.
Christopher Howell
>
> I think if Previn was willing to put up with the inanity of playing a
> table, then Szell should have been willing to put up with the humor of
> its limitations.
>
> -Owen
Just to get back to basics, of the many works that have were set down
by both Szell and Previn, are there any at all where one might prefer
the Previn recording?
Chris Howell
td
Any of them, I think.
Szell's "artistry" has always escaped me completely.
Cold. Dry. Unfeeling. Chromium-plated. Toscanini without the warmth.
TD
jrsnfld
Sticking strictly to the piano, I'd give Szell the nod in the Brahms
quintet and the Mozart quartets. But Previn's not bad in either.
--Jeff
mark
Is there that much crossover between these two conductors?
Gerard
The first thing I was thinking about: Prokofiev symphony 5.
Some other Prokofiev, some Debussy and/or Ravel. A very few Bart�k, Janacek.
Walton maybe. Brahms 4. A single Beethoven symphony (7?).
mark
We all have our blind spots. Nothing wrong with that.
I'm listening to Szell's recordings of Haydn's Early London Symphonies
(Sony 748904 ) in the VW today. I think Szell shines in this music.
For the most part he allows Haydn's humor and excitement to come
through without having to goose it.
That said, Szell indulges in a few clumsy examples of phrasing that
get annoying on repeat hearing. They are so infrequent that I find
myself wondering why he chose to do X in Symphony Y at point Z.
mark
> Walton maybe. Brahms 4. A single Beethoven symphony (7?).
I find Szell a bit rushed on the Prokofiev 5. I know that I have the
Previn, but it doesn't stick in my memory.
Previn did a wonderful disc of R Strauss pieces with the Vienna Phil
before his Telarc series that I remember being really good. I don't
know how much overlap there was there with the Szell recordings. Szell
is a bit sterile in this music for my taste. I prefer Karajan who I
would rate as the overall best conductor in the music of RS.
td
Those RS discs - don't forget the DG one(s?) when DG took up the
Telarc contract - are superb, all of them.
TD
Steve de Mena
> On Sep 30, 6:22 pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Sep 30, 3:16 pm, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> mark wrote:
>>>> On Sep 30, 3:00 pm, Christopher Howell <ckhow...@ckhowell.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 30 Set, 21:45, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I think if Previn was willing to put up with the inanity of
>>>>>> playing a table, then Szell should have been willing to put up
>>>>>> with the humor of its limitations.
>>>>>> -Owen
>>>>> Just to get back to basics, of the many works that have were set
>>>>> down by both Szell and Previn, are there any at all where one might
>>>>> prefer the Previn recording?
>>>>> Chris Howell
>>>> Is there that much crossover between these two conductors?
>>> The first thing I was thinking about: Prokofiev symphony 5.
>>> Walton maybe. Brahms 4. A single Beethoven symphony (7?).
>> I find Szell a bit rushed on the Prokofiev 5. I know that I have the
>> Previn, but it doesn't stick in my memory.
>>
>> Previn did a wonderful disc of R Strauss pieces with the Vienna Phil
>> before his Telarc series that I remember being really good. I don't
>> know how much overlap there was there with the Szell recordings. Szell
>> is a bit sterile in this music for my taste. I prefer Karajan who I
>> would rate as the overall best conductor in the music of RS.
>
> Those RS discs - don't forget the DG one(s?) when DG took up the
> Telarc contract - are superb, all of them.
>
> TD
I noticed all of the DG & Telarc Strauss discs by Previn are being
reissued in Japan about now, including the hard-to-find Symphonia
Domestica.
Steve
Kip Williams
> Just to get back to basics, of the many works that have were set down
> by both Szell and Previn, are there any at all where one might prefer
> the Previn recording?
Has Szell recorded Orff's "Carmina Burana"? I used to have a co-worker
in Houston whose opinions were of interest (he knew more than I about
the subject, and felt deeply about it) who said Previn's CB was one of
the very best, honoring the composer's intentions in places where others
routinely ignored them.
Kip W
Greg
That spinning sound you hear is Szell turning over in his grave at the
very notion...
Greg
Greg
<snip>
>
> > Just to get back to basics, of the many works that have were set down
> > by both Szell and Previn, are there any at all where one might prefer
> > the Previn recording?
>
> > Chris Howell
>
> Is there that much crossover between these two conductors?
I think Previn's strengths lie mostly in areas Szell didn't touch, or
at least focus on. Rachmaninov, RVW, Tchaik ballet suites, French
music, etc... (I haven't heard Previn's Strauss.) As much as I admire
some of Previn's recordings (especially some of the LSO ones), I don't
think he compares favorably as a conductor to Szell, who is one of the
giants imo. But, one could make a convincing case that Previn had a
more promising start to his career than Szell, and then fizzled out,
whereas Szell peaked late. Most of the really great Szell recordings
came after he had turned 60 or so, an age at which Previn was pretty
much burned out (it seems to me). If Previn had continued to develop,
perhaps he would have become one of the giants as well.
Greg
Allen
her Gubaidulina-Bach disc, you know that the raw material for the
stylists and the PSers is there, in spades. What is she now? 45 or
thereabouts?
Allen
M forever
> On Sep 30, 12:02 pm, "graham" <g.ste...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "mark" <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:3d762197-e534-4574...@a37g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Sep 30, 10:47 am, td <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 30, 12:40 pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Oh, I think Szell had a good sense of humor. Listen to the interview
> > > > he did with Paul Myers on a CBS disc and tell me he didn't have a
> > > > sense of humor.
>
> > > > Let's assume the story is true in every detail and that it was relayed
> > > > by Previn. How does the story put Szell in a bad light? Only if one
> > > > considers it in a vacuum. Maybe Szell was having a bad day. Maybe he
> > > > was extremely tired from traveling. Maybe Previn was squeezed into an
> > > > extremely tight Szell schedule and Szell felt he had no time for small
> > > > talk and frivolity. He may simply have been in no mood for joking.
> > > > Maybe he was simply taken back that some young pup had the balls to
> > > > challenge him at this late stage of his career. Who knows?
>
> > > > The point is that to see Szell in a bad light here, one needs to make
> > > > numerous assumptions and then jump to conclusions. I would imagine the
> > > > conclusions jumped to will reflect each reader's existing prejudices.
>
> > > IK could not disagree more, Mark.
>
> > > Szell's summary dismissal of a pianist with the reputation of AP was a
> > > clear attempt to put down someone of talent. Indeed, in my opinion,
> > > Previn is a genius and Szell a good kapellmeister. Seen from that
> > > standpoint, his behaviour is childish, ill-mannered and dictatorial.
> > > Perhaps he thought Previn was one of his skulking musicians.
>
> > > TD
>
> > I would hold that it's a bit unfair to judge as we don't have Szell's
> > side of the story.
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Who cares!!!! It's a good story so leave it at that!
> > Graham
>
> I care.
>
> Some would consider it "a good story" to aver that Obama was born in
> Kenya, rather than Hawaii. I'd consider it a lie, and a lie being used
> to advance a political agenda.
>
> The Previn/Szell story under discussion seems a weak attempt to
> bolster people's existing image of Szell as a humorless martinet.
>
> There are other "good stories" that circulate in the classical music
> world, such as the received opinion that "Karajan joined the Nazi
> Party - twice!" (not true).
I think he did, actually, but the first membership of 1933 didn't
become(or stay active), so he was invited in 1935 to join again.
Literally invited as one couldn't join the NSDAP anymore from a few
months after they came to power, except by invitation from a party
official.
> Why settle for such simple-minded, one-
> sided bromides when the truth is always far more interesting?
>
> Not all good stories are equally good, if you catch my drift.
graham
"Matthew B. Tepper" <oy�@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9C9687CEC6F...@216.168.3.30...
> herman <her...@yahoo.com> appears to have caused the following letters to
> be
> typed in news:d3b675d9-2d54-4110-b5d0-
> e4935b...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On 30 sep, 20:02, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe that's what Previn saw in her. Beyond that, she is eye candy of
>>> a very high order.
>>
>> This is based on publicity pictures involving hours and hours of
>> styling before, and some photoshopping after. That's not what you get
>> to see at the breakfast table.
>
> I've seen an ostensibly candid photo of her from behind, in blue jeans.
> That's good enough for me.
>
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
Bob Harper
>> There are other "good stories" that circulate in the classical music
>> world, such as the received opinion that "Karajan joined the Nazi
>> Party - twice!" (not true).
>
> I think he did, actually, but the first membership of 1933 didn't
> become(or stay active), so he was invited in 1935 to join again.
> Literally invited as one couldn't join the NSDAP anymore from a few
> months after they came to power, except by invitation from a party
> official.
>
And one wonders whether such an 'invitation' wasn't a bit like Don
Corleone making someone an offer he couldn't refuse.
Bob Harper
Gerard
> Christopher Howell wrote:
>
> > Just to get back to basics, of the many works that have were set
> > down by both Szell and Previn, are there any at all where one might
> > prefer the Previn recording?
>
> Has Szell recorded Orff's "Carmina Burana"? I used to have a co-worker
> in Houston whose opinions were of interest (he knew more than I about
> the subject, and felt deeply about it) who said Previn's CB was one of
> the very best,
I agree with that.
Previn also has recorded a splendid Midsummer Night's Dream ('complete'), where
Szell only has recorded a few parts of it, but twice. I think that Previn is
more charming here, and that this (being an essential thing in this type of
music) is his advantage over Szell, who is more a miracle of precision (without
missing the right "tone").
M forever
Not being in the party was not necessarily a problem, refusing to join
when approached was a very serious problem. My father did and also
refused to join the SS (he was an athlete in the 1936 Olympics field
hockey selection), and got into a shitload of trouble, getting kicked
out of the team was only the least of that. Which ironically (or maybe
not) helped him after the war when the allies were looking for
politically clean Germans to help get things running again. He ended
up working for both US and Soviet material requisitioning agencies,
organizing shipments of urgently needed goods and supplies. Since
there was no economy and most of the infrastructure was gone,
everything needed to be organized completely new. He also played a
part in the Berlin airlift.
herman
Well, I've said this before. I used to have Previn's Tchaikovski
ballets on LP (and these weren't the 'suites' - there are no
authentic Swan Lake and Sleeping Beauty 'suites') when there wasn't
that much competition. A couple of years ago I purchased the 3
balletbox with Previn and the LSO, mostly for nostalgic reasons, and
boy was I appalled at the sloppy playing, lousy rhythmic control and
pretty much everything. IMO the Rachmaninov stuff he did mostly stand
or falls with Ashkenazy's paino playing. In my view Previn is typical
of seventies excess. He was a popular guy and recorded just about
everything that's to be recorded, but I would be suprised if any of it
survived. No surprise td is an apologist; Previn was even
(hilariously) included in the Great Pianists of the Century.
Szell's recorded legacy will stand. This is one of the authentic
greats of the conducting and recording history.
td
> td wrote:
> > On Sep 30, 6:22 pm, mark <markstenr...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Sep 30, 3:16 pm, "Gerard" <ghen_nospam_drik...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> mark wrote:
> >>>> On Sep 30, 3:00 pm, Christopher Howell <ckhow...@ckhowell.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On 30 Set, 21:45, O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> I think if Previn was willing to put up with the inanity of
> >>>>>> playing a table, then Szell should have been willing to put up
> >>>>>> with the humor of its limitations.
> >>>>>> -Owen
> >>>>> Just to get back to basics, of the many works that have were set
> >>>>> down by both Szell and Previn, are there any at all where one might
> >>>>> prefer the Previn recording?
> >>>>> Chris Howell
> >>>> Is there that much crossover between these two conductors?
> >>> The first thing I was thinking about: Prokofiev symphony 5.
> >>> Walton maybe. Brahms 4. A single Beethoven symphony (7?).
> >> I find Szell a bit rushed on the Prokofiev 5. I know that I have the
> >> Previn, but it doesn't stick in my memory.
>
> >> Previn did a wonderful disc of R Strauss pieces with the Vienna Phil
> >> before his Telarc series that I remember being really good. I don't
> >> know how much overlap there was there with the Szell recordings. Szell
> >> is a bit sterile in this music for my taste. I prefer Karajan who I
> >> would rate as the overall best conductor in the music of RS.
>
> > Those RS discs - don't forget the DG one(s?) when DG took up the
> > Telarc contract - are superb, all of them.
>
> > TD
>
> I noticed all of the DG & Telarc Strauss discs by Previn are being
> reissued in Japan about now, including the hard-to-find Symphonia
> Domestica.
They are quite wonderful, Steve. Never got the attention they
deserved, in my opinion.
TD
td
> > Just to get back to basics, of the many works that have were set down
> > by both Szell and Previn, are there any at all where one might prefer
> > the Previn recording?
>
> Has Szell recorded Orff's "Carmina Burana"?
LOL
TD
td
Really? Fizzled out?
This statement is laughable.
TD
td
I suppose he is where BH is, crying in his beer.
TD
td
Then try his first Nutcracker ballet and compare it to ANY Tchaikovsky
by GS.
TD
td
I have to wonder whether you have EVER heard AP play the piano,
Herman.
I have. His abilities are simply staggering, particularly given his
other commitments in music.
What is truly hilarious is your ignorance. And your gall. Fools rush
in where angels fear to tred.
> Szell's recorded legacy will stand. This is one of the authentic
> greats of the conducting and recording history.
HA HA HA HA HA
Actually, he should have had the reputation acquired (erroneously, in
my opinion) by Ansermet. Szell should have been a Swiss watch-maker.
TD
William Sommerwerck
conduct different music, Szell leaning in the Classical direction, Previn in
the Romantic.
There was a time when Previn was an up-and-coming conductor, but he did,
indeed, fizzle out.
Szell's performances will probably be remembered longer than Previn's.
Richard S. Sandmeyer
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
They both seemed to do well in Walton's symphonies -- Previn in #1 and
Szell in #2.
I can think of a few things they both recorded. Didn't they both do a
Beethoven symphony cycle, Szell with Cleveland (on Epic, later
Columbia/CBS/Sony) and Previn with the Royal Philharmonic (on RCA, I
think)? They also both recorded some Richard Strauss orchestral works,
as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. However, as you say,
their repertoires largely tended in different directions, so a
work-by-work comparison is not easy (even if it would prove anything).
--
Rich Sandmeyer
rich dot sand at verizon dot net
td
<rich.s...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> In article <ha23fj$l5...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > It's difficult to compare/contrast Previn and Szell, as they tended to
> > conduct different music, Szell leaning in the Classical direction, Previn in
> > the Romantic.
>
> > There was a time when Previn was an up-and-coming conductor, but he did,
> > indeed, fizzle out.
>
> > Szell's performances will probably be remembered longer than Previn's.
>
> They both seemed to do well in Walton's symphonies -- Previn in #1 and
> Szell in #2.
>
> I can think of a few things they both recorded. Didn't they both do a
> Beethoven symphony cycle, Szell with Cleveland (on Epic, later
> Columbia/CBS/Sony) and Previn with the Royal Philharmonic (on RCA, I
> think)? They also both recorded some Richard Strauss orchestral works,
> as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. However, as you say,
> their repertoires largely tended in different directions, so a
> work-by-work comparison is not easy (even if it would prove anything).
Previn did a complete Beethoven cycle?
Do you have details of this?
You're right about the repertoire, of course. But even where they
coincide, Szell was completely outclassed by Fritz Reiner (Richard
Strauss, for example, the Moussorgsky Pictures, Dvorak New World
Symphony, Schubert symphonies, etc.). They were both dictators, but
Reiner was a musician, not just a meticulous conductor.
Szell's perfectionism was a sterile exercise, in my opinion. It is
mirrored today in Vanska's Beethoven, for example, an equally soulless
enterprise.
Szell could even manage to extract every ounce of charm from Dvorak's
Slavonic Dances. Comparisons with Talich, a REAL conductor, are
devastating.
Even in his sacred Mozart Szell was beaten to the post by Josef Krips,
whose recordings with the RCOA are simply fabulous. Detailed, precise,
but warm.
TD
Andy Mountford
wrote:
>O <ow...@denofinequityx.com> wrote in news:300920091545502999%
>ow...@denofinequityx.com:
>
>>
>> I think if Previn was willing to put up with the inanity of playing a
>> table, then Szell should have been willing to put up with the humor of
>> its limitations.
>>
>
>Perhaps.
>
>Anyone remember a BBC2 classical music game show, Face the Music (I think),
>which, among other things, usually involved the contestants having to guess
>what the host, Joseph Cooper, was playing on the "silent" (it rattled quite
>a bit) piano?
>
>Simon
Certainly do. I loved it. (Latish '60s onwards I think.)
I remember regular appearances by such luminaries as as Joyce
Grenfell, David Attenborough, Robin Ray, Bernard Levin, Patrick
Moore...
As I recall, Robin Ray was very good at identifying pieces on the
"silent" keyboard when prompted with the opus number.
Andy
Gerard
>
> Previn did a complete Beethoven cycle?
I think he did only a few (like #7, maybe #5).
>
> Do you have details of this?
>
> You're right about the repertoire, of course. But even where they
> coincide, Szell was completely outclassed by Fritz Reiner (Richard
> Strauss, for example, the Moussorgsky Pictures, Dvorak New World
> Symphony, Schubert symphonies, etc.). They were both dictators, but
> Reiner was a musician, not just a meticulous conductor.
Nor was Szell.
>
> Szell's perfectionism was a sterile exercise, in my opinion. It is
> mirrored today in Vanska's Beethoven, for example, an equally soulless
> enterprise.
>
> Szell could even manage to extract every ounce of charm from Dvorak's
> Slavonic Dances. Comparisons with Talich, a REAL conductor, are
> devastating.
>
> Even in his sacred Mozart Szell was beaten to the post by Josef Krips,
> whose recordings with the RCOA are simply fabulous. Detailed, precise,
> but warm.
>
But not fabulous.
Gerard
To see (hear) what?
Simon Roberts
news:rich.sand-F2693...@news.verizon.net:
> In article <ha23fj$l5h$1...@news.eternal-september.org>,
> "William Sommerwerck" <grizzle...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> It's difficult to compare/contrast Previn and Szell, as they tended
>> to conduct different music, Szell leaning in the Classical direction,
>> Previn in the Romantic.
>>
>> There was a time when Previn was an up-and-coming conductor, but he
>> did, indeed, fizzle out.
>>
>> Szell's performances will probably be remembered longer than
>> Previn's.
>
> They both seemed to do well in Walton's symphonies -- Previn in #1 and
> Szell in #2.
>
> I can think of a few things they both recorded. Didn't they both do a
> Beethoven symphony cycle, Szell with Cleveland (on Epic, later
> Columbia/CBS/Sony) and Previn with the Royal Philharmonic (on RCA, I
> think)? They also both recorded some Richard Strauss orchestral
> works, as has been mentioned earlier in this thread.
Previn also conducted/played Mozart (concertos and symphonies) and Haydn
(symphonies) and Brahms (symphonies, Requiem (especially) and maybe
concertos), though perhaps not to the extent that Szell did. I lived in
London when he was music director of the LSO and have fond memories of
several concerts he conducted, including Beethoven 9 and Brahms' Requiem.
Simon