Joyce Hatto: compelling evidence of an elaborate musical hoax?
Andrew Rose
http://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2759&newssectionID=1
"BREAKING NEWS"
Masterpieces Or Fakes? The Joyce Hatto Scandal February 15 2007
It was already one of the strangest stories the classical music world
had witnessed. But the discovery of the late English pianist Joyce Hatto
as the greatest instrumentalist almost nobody had heard of, appears to
have taken a bizarre, even potentially sinister turn.
It was around a year ago that Gramophone’s critics began to champion
this little-known lady, whose discs – miraculous performances, released
by her husband William Barrington-Coupe on the tiny label Concert Artist
– were notoriously difficult to get hold of. Such was the brilliance of
this pianist across Liszt, Schubert, Rachmaninov, Dukas and more in a
dizzying range – that it was worth making the effort to seek out Concert
Artist to get these discs, and they became much sought-after. By the
time she died in June 2006, Joyce Hatto was not only a sudden widespread
success, she was a cause celebre. To love Hatto recordings was to be in
the know, a true piano aficionado who didn’t need the hype of a major
label’s marketing spend to recognise a good, a great, thing when they
heard it.
But at the same time as the cult of Hatto was burgeoning, there were
persistent rumours on the internet as to the true origins of the
recordings. How, wondered the doubters, could one woman – especially one
who had battled cancer for many years – have mastered a range of
repertoire and recorded a catalogue that arguably makes her more
prolific than even the Richters and the Ashkenazys.
However, Gramophone critic Jeremy Nicholas published a letter in the
magazine asking anyone who had any evidence of any wrong-doing to come
forth. Nobody did, and the matter rested. Until now.
Several days ago, another Gramophone critic decided to listen to a Hatto
Liszt CD, of the 12 Transcendental Studies. He put the disc into his
computer to listen, and something awfully strange happened. His iTunes
player identified the disc as, yes, the Liszts, but not a Hatto
recording. Instead, his display suggested that the disc was one on BIS
Records, by the pianist Lazlo Simon. Mystified, our critic checked his
Hatto disc against the actual Simon recording, and to his amazement they
sounded exactly the same.
In then went a recording of Hatto playing two Rachmaninov Piano
Concertos and, sure enough, iTunes listed it as another – by Yefim
Bronfman, conducted by Esa-Pekka Salonen, on Sony. Again, the critic
compared, and again he could hear no difference.
Gramophone then sent the Hatto and the Simon Liszt recordings to an
audio expert, Pristine Audio’s Andrew Rose, who scientifically checked
the soundwaves of each recording. They matched. “Without a shadow of a
doubt,” reported Rose, “ten of the tracks on the Liszt disc are
identical to those on the Simon.” Of the remaining two, he now feels
that he has identified a further one – which he identified as being,
again “without a shadow of a doubt” from a CD entitled “Nojima Plays
Liszt”, a 1993 release from Reference Recordings. Furthermore, his
partner – who is based elsewhere with his own equipment – agrees.
More astonishing revelations were to come. The pair then checked a track
from a Hatto disc of music by Godowsky, and found that it sounded
strange, as if the sound had been tampered with. After running checks,
they found that if the music had indeed been manipulated – the time had
been stretched by an “audacious” 15.112% (such an extreme stretch
accounted for the odd sound) to alter the tone, but that if the stretch
was reversed it became clear that the track was identical to that played
by the pianist Carlo Grante on a CD issued by Altarus.
Rose even created special pages on his website, showing the soundwaves
for both the Godowsky and the Liszt side by side with those they match.
The listener can compare the tracks simultaneously.
It would take many weeks of intensive work to examine all of the Hatto
recordings, but it seems clear that at least some of these great
performances are identical to other performances available from other
recording companies. Contacted for his comments, Barrington-Coupe – who
acknowledged that he produced well-nigh all of his wife’s recordings -
was at a loss to explain the similarity.
Are the Hatto’s fakes? If so, how many? This, it must be suspected, is a
story that won’t go away until the full truth is known.
* Don’t miss the April issue of Gramophone for a longer version of this
story
James Inverne
For more information and the damning evidence from two Hatto CDs, see
our website:
http://www.pristineclassical.com
--
Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
The online home of Classical Music: www.pristineclassical.com
David Fox
> Published this evening on the Gramophone website:
>
>
> "BREAKING NEWS"
>
> Masterpieces Or Fakes? The Joyce Hatto Scandal February 15 2007
> It was already one of the strangest stories the classical music world
> had witnessed. But the discovery of the late English pianist Joyce Hatto
> as the greatest instrumentalist almost nobody had heard of, appears to
> have taken a bizarre, even potentially sinister turn.
>
> It was around a year ago that Gramophone's critics began to champion
> by her husband William Barrington-Coupe on the tiny label Concert Artist
> this pianist across Liszt, Schubert, Rachmaninov, Dukas and more in a
> Artist to get these discs, and they became much sought-after. By the
> time she died in June 2006, Joyce Hatto was not only a sudden widespread
> success, she was a cause celebre. To love Hatto recordings was to be in
> the know, a true piano aficionado who didn't need the hype of a major
> label's marketing spend to recognise a good, a great, thing when they
> heard it.
>
> But at the same time as the cult of Hatto was burgeoning, there were
> persistent rumours on the internet as to the true origins of the
> who had battled cancer for many years - have mastered a range of
> repertoire and recorded a catalogue that arguably makes her more
> prolific than even the Richters and the Ashkenazys.
>
> However, Gramophone critic Jeremy Nicholas published a letter in the
> magazine asking anyone who had any evidence of any wrong-doing to come
> forth. Nobody did, and the matter rested. Until now.
>
> Several days ago, another Gramophone critic decided to listen to a Hatto
> Liszt CD, of the 12 Transcendental Studies. He put the disc into his
> computer to listen, and something awfully strange happened. His iTunes
> player identified the disc as, yes, the Liszts, but not a Hatto
> recording. Instead, his display suggested that the disc was one on BIS
> Records, by the pianist Lazlo Simon. Mystified, our critic checked his
> Hatto disc against the actual Simon recording, and to his amazement they
> sounded exactly the same.
>
> In then went a recording of Hatto playing two Rachmaninov Piano
> Bronfman, conducted by Esa-Pekka Salonen, on Sony. Again, the critic
> compared, and again he could hear no difference.
>
> Gramophone then sent the Hatto and the Simon Liszt recordings to an
> audio expert, Pristine Audio's Andrew Rose, who scientifically checked
> the soundwaves of each recording. They matched. "Without a shadow of a
> doubt," reported Rose, "ten of the tracks on the Liszt disc are
> identical to those on the Simon." Of the remaining two, he now feels
> again "without a shadow of a doubt" from a CD entitled "Nojima Plays
> Liszt", a 1993 release from Reference Recordings. Furthermore, his
>
> More astonishing revelations were to come. The pair then checked a track
> from a Hatto disc of music by Godowsky, and found that it sounded
> strange, as if the sound had been tampered with. After running checks,
> been stretched by an "audacious" 15.112% (such an extreme stretch
> accounted for the odd sound) to alter the tone, but that if the stretch
> was reversed it became clear that the track was identical to that played
> by the pianist Carlo Grante on a CD issued by Altarus.
>
> Rose even created special pages on his website, showing the soundwaves
> for both the Godowsky and the Liszt side by side with those they match.
> The listener can compare the tracks simultaneously.
>
> It would take many weeks of intensive work to examine all of the Hatto
> recordings, but it seems clear that at least some of these great
> performances are identical to other performances available from other
> acknowledged that he produced well-nigh all of his wife's recordings -
> was at a loss to explain the similarity.
>
> Are the Hatto's fakes? If so, how many? This, it must be suspected, is a
> story that won't go away until the full truth is known.
>
> * Don't miss the April issue of Gramophone for a longer version of this
> story
>
> James Inverne
>
> For more information and the damning evidence from two Hatto CDs, see
> our website:
>
> http://www.pristineclassical.com
>
> --
> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Wow. It looks like a few people on this NG owe Peter Lemken a humble
apology.
DF
Paul Ilechko
a mediocre original ...
Tom Deacon must be sitting on a goldmine.
rkhalona
> To love Hatto recordings was to be in
> the know, a true piano aficionado who didn't need the hype of a major
> label's marketing spend to recognise a good, a great, thing when they
> heard it.
>
I am happy to count myself among the ignorant who never jumped on this
bandwagon. I wonder what RMCR's resident DJ has to say about this.
BTW, if the digital sound files match, why the question mark on the
subject line?
RK
tomdeacon
As far as I can tell, nobody has proven anything.
There are NO specifics in this report, simply allegations.
The one track which MAY be the one they are referring to - with Nojima
- does not betray the same inflections and playing as Hatto, at least
in Feux follets. I will, of course, get that CD out and compare them.
But frankly I wouldn't trust Andrew Rose to pick up my groceries from
Safeway, let alone compare wafeforms!!!
TD
JohnGavin
I just ordered my first Hatto CDs - the Ravel set and the Scarlatti
Vol. 1. One the one hand, I was amazed at her stupendous discography
- I guess what is so odd about the Hatto phenomenon is that this huge
discography made itself known all at once!
But on the other hand, if this is a hoax of some kind, isn't it odd
that since the records have been out for a while now, no critics or
expert pianophiles have noticed that the performances sounded familiar?
tomdeacon
You will not be unhappy with the Scarlatti, John. I have four of her
Scarlatti CDs. I simply don't know other versions of this music which
sound like this.
Ditto for her Ravel.
TD
Andrew Rose
So go take a look and listen for yourself, Tom:
http://www.pristineclassical.com/HattoHoax.html
BTW - I was asked to do this research by Gramophone. I have no axe to
grind, and have never previously participated in any discussion about
Hatto. I came to this with an open and enquiring mind.
To quickly find that one CD is ripped off from at least two, probably
three sources is remarkable.
To select another at random, and find a source for tracks on it within
20 minutes of looking, suggests an unprecedented hoax has been committed.
I've presented the evidence so far on our website, and I expect to
present more in the next few days. You'll hear three recordings -
"Hatto" on the left channel, and the originals on the right channel.
Judge for yourself.
No human in history could exactly replicate another's performance to
this degree of accuracy - to the nearest 1/44100th of a second...
Andrew Rose
Ahh, but some did, which led to the first match. From then on it was a
matter of finding the others - not easy if you digitally squash a track
so that it stays in tune but runs 15% faster. Only problem is, it makes
the track sound weirdly compressed, which was the clue to the Godowsky
recording. Speed him up by exactly the same amount and - there it is -
an exact match with Grante. This can only be a deliberate attempt to
deceive.
Andrew Rose
>
> You will not be unhappy with the Scarlatti, John. I have four of her
> Scarlatti CDs. I simply don't know other versions of this music which
> sound like this.
>
> Ditto for her Ravel.
>
What's the odds they're not doctored versions of other performances?
Doesn't mean they weren't great to start with.
In my admittedly limited experience - two discs - of Hatto, I've yet to
find one which has not been ripped off from another recording...
Taffy Brendel
Thank you Andrew for helping to expose this hoax.
Fools and Deacon are easily parted of their money.
Taffy
alanwa...@aol.com
> Published this evening on the Gramophone website:
>
>
> "BREAKING NEWS"
>
> Masterpieces Or Fakes? The Joyce Hatto Scandal February 15 2007
> It was already one of the strangest stories the classical music world
> had witnessed. But the discovery of the late English pianist Joyce Hatto
> as the greatest instrumentalist almost nobody had heard of, appears to
> have taken a bizarre, even potentially sinister turn.
>
> It was around a year ago that Gramophone's critics began to champion
> by her husband William Barrington-Coupe on the tiny label Concert Artist
> this pianist across Liszt, Schubert, Rachmaninov, Dukas and more in a
> Artist to get these discs, and they became much sought-after. By the
> time she died in June 2006, Joyce Hatto was not only a sudden widespread
> success, she was a cause celebre. To love Hatto recordings was to be in
> the know, a true piano aficionado who didn't need the hype of a major
> label's marketing spend to recognise a good, a great, thing when they
> heard it.
>
> But at the same time as the cult of Hatto was burgeoning, there were
> persistent rumours on the internet as to the true origins of the
> who had battled cancer for many years - have mastered a range of
> repertoire and recorded a catalogue that arguably makes her more
> prolific than even the Richters and the Ashkenazys.
>
> However, Gramophone critic Jeremy Nicholas published a letter in the
> magazine asking anyone who had any evidence of any wrong-doing to come
> forth. Nobody did, and the matter rested. Until now.
>
> Several days ago, another Gramophone critic decided to listen to a Hatto
> Liszt CD, of the 12 Transcendental Studies. He put the disc into his
> computer to listen, and something awfully strange happened. His iTunes
> player identified the disc as, yes, the Liszts, but not a Hatto
> recording. Instead, his display suggested that the disc was one on BIS
> Records, by the pianist Lazlo Simon. Mystified, our critic checked his
> Hatto disc against the actual Simon recording, and to his amazement they
> sounded exactly the same.
>
> In then went a recording of Hatto playing two Rachmaninov Piano
> Bronfman, conducted by Esa-Pekka Salonen, on Sony. Again, the critic
> compared, and again he could hear no difference.
>
> Gramophone then sent the Hatto and the Simon Liszt recordings to an
> audio expert, Pristine Audio's Andrew Rose, who scientifically checked
> the soundwaves of each recording. They matched. "Without a shadow of a
> doubt," reported Rose, "ten of the tracks on the Liszt disc are
> identical to those on the Simon." Of the remaining two, he now feels
> again "without a shadow of a doubt" from a CD entitled "Nojima Plays
> Liszt", a 1993 release from Reference Recordings. Furthermore, his
>
> More astonishing revelations were to come. The pair then checked a track
> from a Hatto disc of music by Godowsky, and found that it sounded
> strange, as if the sound had been tampered with. After running checks,
> been stretched by an "audacious" 15.112% (such an extreme stretch
> accounted for the odd sound) to alter the tone, but that if the stretch
> was reversed it became clear that the track was identical to that played
> by the pianist Carlo Grante on a CD issued by Altarus.
>
> Rose even created special pages on his website, showing the soundwaves
> for both the Godowsky and the Liszt side by side with those they match.
> The listener can compare the tracks simultaneously.
>
> It would take many weeks of intensive work to examine all of the Hatto
> recordings, but it seems clear that at least some of these great
> performances are identical to other performances available from other
> acknowledged that he produced well-nigh all of his wife's recordings -
> was at a loss to explain the similarity.
>
> Are the Hatto's fakes? If so, how many? This, it must be suspected, is a
> story that won't go away until the full truth is known.
>
> * Don't miss the April issue of Gramophone for a longer version of this
> story
>
> James Inverne
>
> For more information and the damning evidence from two Hatto CDs, see
> our website:
>
> http://www.pristineclassical.com
>
> --
> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
A question. Has the Itunes data base been loaded with Ms Hatto's
recordings and, if so, by whom?
Kind regards,
Alan M. Watkins
rkhalona
>
> > But on the other hand, if this is a hoax of some kind, isn't it odd
> > that since the records have been out for a while now, no critics or
> > expert pianophiles have noticed that the performances sounded familiar?
>
> Ahh, but some did, which led to the first match. From then on it was a
> matter of finding the others - not easy if you digitally squash a track
> so that it stays in tune but runs 15% faster. Only problem is, it makes
> the track sound weirdly compressed, which was the clue to the Godowsky
> recording. Speed him up by exactly the same amount and - there it is -
> an exact match with Grante. This can only be a deliberate attempt to
> deceive.
>
Exactly, and although it would be great to find additional examples to
further substantiate the hoax, the examples you cite are sufficient to
accept this was a deliberate attempt to deceive. The washed up DJ is
in denial. You can handle my groceries any time Mr. Rose.
RK
Andrew Rose
>
> Thank you Andrew for helping to expose this hoax.
>
> Fools and Deacon are easily parted of their money.
>
> Taffy
>
I'm happy to admit that without the listening and detective work of
others I'd not have known about this. I was first asked to test whether
it was possible to prove that the Simon disc and the Hatto disc were of
the same origin.
From there I scoured the internet for the source of the fifth track on
the Liszt disc - after about two dozen blanks I found the match.
The Godowsky disc was chosen next as there were fewer possible sources.
Again it was a case of searching for matches on the Internet, using both
download sites and recording samples at CD retail sites.
Tomorrow I hope to discover whether one of her orchestral recordings is
what it claims to be, or what others suspect it might be. Thus far I've
heard neither, and will approach again with an open mind and a
scientific approach.
It is, however, clear where a match is true and where it's not. The tone
and much of the playing of the final track on the Liszt CD resembles
closely a recording by Freddy Kempff on BIS but it isn't, and I don't
yet know who is playing it. I don't have an inexhaustible library of
recordings to select, so there are bound to be some that I can't trace,
but the two sources of the Liszt were convincing, and proving the same
on a second CD was compelling enough for Gramophone to go to press with
the story. There seems little reason to doubt that further CDs will
yield similar results.
All of which I find terribly sad...
Andrew Rose
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>>
>> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
>
> A question. Has the Itunes data base been loaded with Ms Hatto's
> recordings and, if so, by whom?
>
The system simply checks CD track durations against a central database.
If there's a close match but no exact match it'll suggest that as a
possible hit, as I understand it. This gave a few clues but proved
nothing - just a place to start looking.
The proof is online, awaiting your expert ears...
Henk van Tuijl
"JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
news:1171575893....@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LOL!
If it is a hoax, it is a great one - and my compliments to late Ms.
Hatto and company.
I bought the Debussy etudes and wonder how the original performance and
who the original performer is/was.
Dan Koren's mystery pianist and radio programs with the same format
prove time and again that there are no expert pianophiles.
Peter Lemken might be the exception!
Henk
Andrej Kluge
> It would take many weeks of intensive work to examine all of the Hatto
> recordings, but it seems clear that at least some of these great
> performances are identical to other performances available from other
> recording companies.
Incredible.
I wonder who had played her Mozart sonatas that were highly acclaimed in
this ng... If this came out someday I'd be glad to know.
Ciao
A.
David Fox
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
iTunes users may or may not have submitted Hatto track listings to
CDDB (which iTunes uses) but that is hardly the point. The Gramophone
piece says that if you insert the Hatto Rach 2 & 3, it identifies it
as the Bronfman/Salonen recording. The CDDB algorithm is based on
number and lengths of tracks. It is possible to get false positives,
but in my experience the probability that the genres much less the
pieces match is remote. I wouldn't take wagers on the statistical
probability that Joyce Hatto plays each movement of each concerto at
the same timing to the second as Yefim Bronfman.
The waveform comparison analysis is about as open and shut as evidence
ever is. There's nothing to do but to stand back and watch the
theater as this hoax unravels.
You've had some personal interactions with Hatto and Barrington-
Coupe. Did anything ever strike you as strange?
DF
Andrew Rose
>
> If it is a hoax, it is a great one - and my compliments to late Ms.
> Hatto and company.
>
> I bought the Debussy etudes and wonder how the original performance and
> who the original performer is/was.
>
> Dan Koren's mystery pianist and radio programs with the same format
> prove time and again that there are no expert pianophiles.
>
> Peter Lemken might be the exception!
>
Read the MusicWeb biog again with this in mind and you start to wonder
how anyone could miss it:
http://www.musicweb.uk.net/classrev/2006/Jan06/Hatto2_recordings.htm
"Joyce stopped playing in public in 1979. Hospitalisation, near-death
encounters, and alternative therapies followed - to become the pattern
of her existence. She returned to the studio, 3 January 1989, playing
Liszt. Since then she has maintained an annual recording schedule,
reaching a peak of intensity in 1997-99. No discernible pattern or
progression of repertory is apparent. Rather a mêlée of works, of stark
emotional juxtapositions, of dramatically differing linguistic,
spiritual and style states seemingly as the mood and impulse takes her,
of projects begun, taken up again, or completed. In the five days
between 4th and 8th January 1998, for example, she ranged from Chopin
(four ballades) and Beethoven (Hammerklavier) to Prokofiev; in the
corresponding period the following year, 3rd-7th, from Saint-Saëns
(Fourth Piano Concerto), late Beethoven, Mendelssohn (the two piano
concertos [CACD-9070-2]), Rachmaninov (B flat minor Sonata [CACD
9079-2]) and Schumann to Schubert (last sonata) and Liszt, and back
again to Beethoven (middle period sonatas). Prodigious."
^^^^^^^^^^
One might also say "unbelievable"...
"Assuming correct documentation, five of her studio visits strike me in
particular (changes of sound or microphone position between works
notwithstanding), Joyce ostensibly doing in a day what others would need
two or three for. Contemplate the magnitude, the intellectual grasp, the
aesthetic response, the sheer pianistic stamina and concentration required:
6, 7 January 1995 Liszt Italian Operatic Transcriptions, including
Hexaméron, Niobe,
Norma and Sonnambula [CACD 91112, 91122] Four late Mozart sonatas,
K 533/494, 545, 570, 576 [CACD 9055-2
4 January 1998 Chopin B minor Sonata [CACD 9043-2].
Beethoven Hammerklavier [CACD 8009-2]
14 October 1998 Schubert Sonatas in A minor, C minor, D 845, 958 [CACD
9064-2]
16 March 1999 Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition [CACD 9129-2].
Balakirev Islamey [CACD 9195-2]
5 September 2003 Chopin Op 10 Études – a 75th birthday fest in the middle of
Chopin-Godowsky sessions [CACD 9147-2, 9148-2]
- impossible, many cynics would uphold."
^^^^^^^^^^
Yep.
"From the track-listings of her CDs, most works or cycles are finished
at a sitting or during a run of consecutive sessions/days. Occasionally
though she will set aside a project to be continued or completed at a
later date. Prokofiev’s War Sonatas, for instance, were not to be
finally tidied-up until six years after they were first tackled. The
Liszt Sonata/Rhapsodie espagnople album, begun in 1989, only reached
completion in 1999 [CACD 9067-2]; the Transcendental Studies, started in
1990, in 2001 [CACD 9084-2]. Maintaining consistency of idea and
interpretation over a lengthy period, with a sound envelope to match,
doesn’t seem to pose a problem."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Not when you're using the same BIS CD as the source for most of it...
Andrew Rose
>
> iTunes users may or may not have submitted Hatto track listings to
> CDDB (which iTunes uses) but that is hardly the point. The Gramophone
> piece says that if you insert the Hatto Rach 2 & 3, it identifies it
> as the Bronfman/Salonen recording. The CDDB algorithm is based on
> number and lengths of tracks. It is possible to get false positives,
> but in my experience the probability that the genres much less the
> pieces match is remote. I wouldn't take wagers on the statistical
> probability that Joyce Hatto plays each movement of each concerto at
> the same timing to the second as Yefim Bronfman.
>
>
This is the recording I'll be testing tomorrow, I hope...
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
If Tom Deacon cares to compare Hatto's Liszt Transcendentals with
Laszlo Simon's he'll hear for himself that they are (except for tracks
5 and 12) the same. If he can't there's something wrong with his ears.
Many more of Hatto's recordings will be correctly identified over the
coming weeks, now that this has started to unravel.
As for Tom Deacon's amusing statement that his only regret about the
Philips Great Pianists series was the exclusion of Joyce Hatto, I only
hope that his numerous friends here are ready to remind of this.
SL
JohnGavin
Here's a quick comparison. I determined the timings of the first nine
Chopin-Godowsky Studies - the Grante Altarus and Joyce Hatto's
timings, given in a review at Classics Today. (Altarus doesn't provide
written timings, so I used my CD player read out).
Grante Hatto
2:09 2:09
3:28 2:59
1:45 1:40
2:19 2:09
5:22 4:47
3:02 2:42
1:48 1:43
2:03 1:59
2:51 2:30
The timing differences probably don't prove anything, but they are
certainly disproportionatly different. Of course you can notice that
in most cases, Joyce Hatto's timings are faster.
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
What about Grante's Music & Arts recording, I wonder?
SL
alanwa...@aol.com
Andrew: I repeat my question. Have her recordings been uploaded on to
the database?
It is a simple yes or no surely? If not, how will it know?
Taffy Brendel
> On 15 Feb, 22:06, Andrew Rose <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > alanwatkin...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > >> --
> > >> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> > >> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
>
> > > A question. Has the Itunes data base been loaded with Ms Hatto's
> > > recordings and, if so, by whom?
>
> > The system simply checks CD track durations against a central database.
> > If there's a close match but no exact match it'll suggest that as a
> > possible hit, as I understand it. This gave a few clues but proved
> > nothing - just a place to start looking.
>
> > The proof is online, awaiting your expert ears...
>
> > --
> > Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> > The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
>
> If Tom Deacon cares to compare Hatto's Liszt Transcendentals with
> Laszlo Simon's he'll hear for himself that they are (except for tracks
> 5 and 12) the same. If he can't there's something wrong with his ears.
All evidence is that there is something wrong with his ears - VPO/BPO
anyone? Would that this is his only flaw. He is wrong from his
hooved feet to his horned head. No wonder Pogorelich had nothing to
do with him. Pogo could smell the stench of sulphur eminating from
the Deacon from a considerable distance of course.
>
> Many more of Hatto's recordings will be correctly identified over the
> coming weeks, now that this has started to unravel.
Oh, that will be fun! Let's see Deacon, Graham, Lumpe, Watkins and
all the others should go into hiding (who else who has perpetrated
this fraud have I forgotten?). In Deacon's case he can go listen to
all of the Hoaxo discs he bought. This old fraud has been flacking
this hoax for a considerable time. He obviously knows diddly squat
about music not to mention piano playing. He owes everyone an apology
the old narcissist. Of course he is undoubtedly admiring himself in
his magic mirror right now. While he sees himself (and no one else)
as a beauteous creature most others seem him for the dispicable ugly
fraud he is. If he had even a dust motes worth of decency he would
issue an apology. Alas, he is now permanently affixed to his mirror
gazing upon his hideous visage. He is incapable of ever admitting
fault.
>
> As for Tom Deacon's amusing statement that his only regret about the
> Philips Great Pianists series was the exclusion of Joyce Hatto, I only
> hope that his numerous friends here are ready to remind of this.
I don't think there is much to worry about in this respect. Deacon's
already tenuous grip on reality along with non-existent credibility
will do nothing but elicit scorn for everything his addled mind utters
from now on, of course.
>
> SL
Taffy
John Wilson
wrote:
The washed up DJ proved months ago that he is as deaf as a post in his
BPO/VPO debacle so it shouldn't be surprising that he is completely
ignorant of which pianist he might be hearing. This also probably
accounts for the myriad errors in the so-called "Great Pianist"
series. So much for the pompous know-it-all ex-DJ.
John
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm sure all those orchestral musicians who were performing on Hatto's
concerto recordings will come flooding out of the woodwork to verify
it was really her. Or indeed the fictitious conductor.
SL
O
<and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
Not only that -- it turns out that Joyce Hatto was the father of Anna
Nicole Smith's baby!
-Owen
alanwa...@aol.com
Andrew: answer the question. Has it been uploaded with the material
of Ms Hatto or not on to the "central database"
Yes or no?
It is quite simple, really.
JohnGavin
> In article <45d4d5d1$0$27405$ba4ac...@news.orange.fr>, Andrew Rose
>
> - Show quoted text -
Joking aside - let's keep in mind that even if a hoax is uncovered,
Ms. Hatto may have known nothing about it, and her good reputation may
survive all of this (with an admittedly smaller discography).
Bob Lombard
"John Wilson" <j...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cln9t29691fg9t9l0...@4ax.com...
All of this is fairly dismaying - but anyway, I'm pretty sure that the
LP of her playing Bax sonatas is the real Hatto - and she was good.
bl
O
<simon...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> As for Tom Deacon's amusing statement that his only regret about the
> Philips Great Pianists series was the exclusion of Joyce Hatto, I only
> hope that his numerous friends here are ready to remind of this.
She may already be there - multiple times!!
It's so much easier to play a CD than to play the piano. Less practise
time, too!
How do you get to Joyce Hatto hall?
Hit play, hit record, hit play, hit record.
-Owen
O
<kl...@wizzy.de> wrote:
The Lazlo Simon cult is about to start up .... want in?
-Owen
Paul Ilechko
>
> All of this is fairly dismaying - but anyway, I'm pretty sure that the
> LP of her playing Bax sonatas is the real Hatto - and she was good.
It's quite possible that she was a very good pianist who made some very
good recordings, and after she got sick some greedy and unscrupulous
people around her found a way to increase her fame and make more money
for themselves.
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
wrote:
> On Feb 15, 10:06?pm, Andrew Rose <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > alanwatkin...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > >> --
> > >> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> > >> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
>
> > > recordings and, if so, by whom?
>
> > The system simply checks CD track durations against a central database.
> > If there's a close match but no exact match it'll suggest that as a
> > possible hit, as I understand it. This gave a few clues but proved
> > nothing - just a place to start looking.
>
> > The proof is online, awaiting your expert ears...
>
> > --
> > Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> > The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
>
> Andrew: answer the question. Has it been uploaded with the material
> of Ms Hatto or not on to the "central database"
>
> Yes or no?
>
> It is quite simple, really.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Alan, I don't know the answer but it's really not relevant. The text
for Hatto's Rachmaninov recording coming up as Bronfman is, at the
mildest, a clue. The giveaway is when you actually listen to the two
recordings and realize they are the same. You might claim that Sony
ripped off the Joyce Hatto recording, but you wouldn't ... would you?
I suspect Hatto's recording details haven't been added to the database
because they have not been widely distributed. The few Hatto discs I
have (including the Liszt Transcendentals incidentally) come up as
"artist unknown". But either way, it makes no difference to the
evidence.
SL
Roland van Gaalen
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> schreef in bericht
news:45d4da76$0$320$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>
> "JohnGavin" <dag...@comcast.net> schreef in bericht
> news:1171575893....@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 15, 4:37 pm, "rkhalona" <rkhal...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Feb 15, 1:20 pm, Andrew Rose <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > To love Hatto recordings was to be in
>>> > the know, a true piano aficionado who didn't need the hype of a major
>>> > label's marketing spend to recognise a good, a great, thing when they
>>> > heard it.
>>>
>>> I am happy to count myself among the ignorant who never jumped on this
>>> bandwagon. I wonder what RMCR's resident DJ has to say about this.
>>> BTW, if the digital sound files match, why the question mark on the
>>> subject line?
>>>
>>> RK
>>
>> I just ordered my first Hatto CDs - the Ravel set and the Scarlatti
>> Vol. 1. One the one hand, I was amazed at her stupendous discography
>> - I guess what is so odd about the Hatto phenomenon is that this huge
>> discography made itself known all at once!
>>
>> But on the other hand, if this is a hoax of some kind, isn't it odd
>> that since the records have been out for a while now, no critics or
>> expert pianophiles have noticed that the performances sounded familiar?
>
> LOL!
>
> If it is a hoax, it is a great one
This is extremely funny.
I am not familiar with any recordings by the late Mrs Barrington-Coupé, née
Hatto, but I hope for a strange twist in this bizarre story.
--
Roland van Gaalen
Amsterdam
r.p.vangaalenATchello.nl (AT=@)
O
JohnGavin <dag...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > > No human in history could exactly replicate another's performance to
> > > this degree of accuracy - to the nearest 1/44100th of a second...
> >
> > Not only that -- it turns out that Joyce Hatto was the father of Anna
> > Nicole Smith's baby!
> >
> > -Owen- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Joking aside - let's keep in mind that even if a hoax is uncovered,
> Ms. Hatto may have known nothing about it, and her good reputation may
> survive all of this (with an admittedly smaller discography).
>
Ask Milli Vanilli.
If even a small percentage of her recordings are found to be hoaxed, no
one could trust that the remaining recordings would actually be her,
and not just some unfound recording.
-Owen
Paul Ilechko
Presumably BIS is going to reissue his Liszt TEs in time for the flood
of orders ...
tomdeacon
> tomdeacon wrote:
>
> > You will not be unhappy with the Scarlatti, John. I have four of her
> > Scarlatti CDs. I simply don't know other versions of this music which
> > sound like this.
>
> > Ditto for her Ravel.
>
> What's the odds they're not doctored versions of other performances?
> Doesn't mean they weren't great to start with.
>
> In my admittedly limited experience - two discs - of Hatto, I've yet to
> find one which has not been ripped off from another recording...
Indeed.
Limited experience.
One thing is sure: if you are wrong, I do hope you have a very good
lawyer. You'll need one.
TD
alanwa...@aol.com
> Published this evening on the Gramophone website:
>
> http://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2759&newssec...
>
> "BREAKING NEWS"
>
> Masterpieces Or Fakes? The Joyce Hatto Scandal February 15 2007
> It was already one of the strangest stories the classical music world
> had witnessed. But the discovery of the late English pianist Joyce Hatto
> as the greatest instrumentalist almost nobody had heard of, appears to
> have taken a bizarre, even potentially sinister turn.
>
> It was around a year ago that Gramophone's critics began to champion
> this little-known lady, whose discs - miraculous performances, released
> by her husband William Barrington-Coupe on the tiny label Concert Artist
> - were notoriously difficult to get hold of. Such was the brilliance of
> this pianist across Liszt, Schubert, Rachmaninov, Dukas and more in a
> dizzying range - that it was worth making the effort to seek out Concert
> Artist to get these discs, and they became much sought-after. By the
> time she died in June 2006, Joyce Hatto was not only a sudden widespread
> the know, a true piano aficionado who didn't need the hype of a major
> label's marketing spend to recognise a good, a great, thing when they
> heard it.
>
> recordings, but it seems clear that at least some of these great
> performances are identical to other performances available from other
> acknowledged that he produced well-nigh all of his wife's recordings -
> was at a loss to explain the similarity.
>
> Are the Hatto's fakes? If so, how many? This, it must be suspected, is a
> story that won't go away until the full truth is known.
>
> * Don't miss the April issue of Gramophone for a longer version of this
> story
>
> James Inverne
>
> For more information and the damning evidence from two Hatto CDs, see
> our website:
>
> http://www.pristineclassical.com
>
> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
Andrew: which two Rachmaninoff piano concertos please?
tomdeacon
wrote:
> recordings and, if so, by whom?
iTunes database is loaded by ANYONE.
Indeed, you can go in and change the database right now if you like.
Garbage in, garbage out.
I think even Tepper has encountered particular examples of such
garbage.
TD
Andrew Rose
In the case of the second, which is the one I examined, you can hear
when listening to the uncompressed original 'Hatto' the artefacts
produced by digitally compressing time without altering pitch.
In an off-the-shelf PC program like Adobe Audition you have three basic
options for time and pitch:
1. Alter both (simply speed up or slow down and the pitch does the same
2. Alter pitch, leaving the tempo the same
3. Alter tempo, leaving the pitch the same
The latter two require clever processing and only work convincingly to a
relatively small degree of change, hence the unusual sound on track 2.
Consider the difference - a 15% speed up of an hour's music loses you
nine whole minutes, whilst retaining all the notes.
The third option was used as a means of disguising the origins of the
original recording, and would certainly have continued to be successful
had not previous tracks looked at shown similar, though much less
severe, evidence of the same thing.
A simple vari-speed difference could be put down to error. A time-shift
of 15%, difficult to achieve and get past the critical listener, can
only be a deliberate attempt to disguise and deceive.
Andrew Rose
I haven't the faintest idea - I've never used iTunes.
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
I've looked up reviews for Ms. Hatto's recordings at various sites
over the last 6 months or so. The reviews are almost unanimously
superlative, and by many who really know piano recordings, like Jed
Distler. If someone orchestrated an elaborate hoax, they certainly
knew how to choose good recordings! Take for example Ms. Hatto's
Vingt Regards. Superlative reviews - calling it competitive and even
surpassing the likes of P. Serkin, Osborne and Aimard. Just finding
another recording of the Messiaen to create a hoax, and having that
recording's true identity elude the radar of experts, while they call
it the best version they've heard is practically genius!
MiNe 109
"Roland van Gaalen" <SeeSig...@DeadSpam.com> wrote:
> This is extremely funny.
>
> I am not familiar with any recordings by the late Mrs Barrington-Coupé, née
> Hatto, but I hope for a strange twist in this bizarre story.
Any significance to the April issue we're supposed to wait for?
Stephen
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
Oh Tom, you are hilarious. Have you listened to the BIS recording of
the Liszt Treanscendentals? If not, I suggest you do.
Even without this evidence, the whole Hatto affair was so blatantly
suspicious I'm surprised more people didn't question it.
It'll be Mr Barrington-Coupe who'll need the lawyers. Not for the
first time.
SL
David Fox
>
> - Show quoted text -
Perhaps, but they don't give out awards for this sort of genius. Only
jail sentences.
DF
O
JohnGavin <dag...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I've looked up reviews for Ms. Hatto's recordings at various sites
> over the last 6 months or so. The reviews are almost unanimously
> superlative, and by many who really know piano recordings, like Jed
> Distler. If someone orchestrated an elaborate hoax, they certainly
> knew how to choose good recordings! Take for example Ms. Hatto's
> Vingt Regards. Superlative reviews - calling it competitive and even
> surpassing the likes of P. Serkin, Osborne and Aimard. Just finding
> another recording of the Messiaen to create a hoax, and having that
> recording's true identity elude the radar of experts, while they call
> it the best version they've heard is practically genius!
>
Maybe the flip side of this story is that there's a whole lot of really
good music out there that we don't get to here because it's been
ignored or neglected.
-Owen
O
wrote:
Change that to "get to hear"
-Owen
Andrew Rose
I found it on emusic - it's also on the Naxos Music Library and iTunes.
I know the head of BIS has been contacted about this and given his full
approval of our use of the online example from the Simon CD.
I suspect it was chosen precisely because of bring perhaps a little off
the beaten track - with a couple of other performances thrown in to put
listeners off the scent. Alas the resurrection of back catalogue through
Internet downloading was fatal flaw in that plan...
Royke
could be naive enough to think this would never be detected.
Then again, this is good news for whoever the original pianists will turn
out to be, as surely the raving reviews ('miraculous performances' in the
Gramophon article) will remain valid.
RJ
Andrew Rose
>
> Andrew: which two Rachmaninoff piano concertos please?
>
> Kind regards,
> Alan M. Watkins
>
>
The suggestion has been made that her Rach 2 & 3 are actually taken from
a Sony CD. I've no idea yet whether this is the case - as with the
Liszt/Simon recording, this suggestion came from another source, and
I'll merely be checking to see if it holds any water.
David Fox
> In article <1171580277.697227.195...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com>,
This also answers Peter Lemken's long-standing question of how the
orchestra fit into the Cambridge studio: by traveling via jewel case.
DF
Royke
news:45d4ceb0$0$5078$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
> Published this evening on the Gramophone website:
>
>
>
> "BREAKING NEWS"
>
> Masterpieces Or Fakes? The Joyce Hatto Scandal February 15 2007
>
> Several days ago, another Gramophone critic decided to listen to a Hatto
> Liszt CD, of the 12 Transcendental Studies. He put the disc into his
> computer to listen, and something awfully strange happened. His iTunes
> player identified the disc as, yes, the Liszts, but not a Hatto recording.
> Instead, his display suggested that the disc was one on BIS Records, by
> the pianist Lazlo Simon. Mystified, our critic checked his Hatto disc
> against the actual Simon recording, and to his amazement they sounded
> exactly the same.
>
> In then went a recording of Hatto playing two Rachmaninov Piano Concertos
> again he could hear no difference.
So, all you Hatto recording owners, how much work can it be to try all your
Hatto CDs in iTunes???
Do not keep us in suspense! Who did the Ravel, and the Mozart?
J.Martin
> Maybe the flip side of this story is that there's a whole lot of really
> good music out there that we don't get to here because it's been
> ignored or neglected.
>
> -Owen
That's what I was thinking. If all of these recordings have been
issued before, why didn't critics or collectors rave about them? Is
it because they weren't on a major label? Because they didn't have a
heart-wrenching story attached to them?
It all reminds me of when Andante issued what was supposedly a new
live recording of Das Lied with Walter and Ferrier, which some critics
instantly proclaimed as superior, more "flowing," etc, than the well-
known studio version. In reality, the two recordings were of the same
performance, which even a quick comparative listen via headphones
would have revealed.
We hear with our minds as much as our ears, I suppose, and a good
story counts for as much as good playing.
tomdeacon
wrote:> > On 15 Feb 2007 14:02:07 -0800, "rkhalona" <rkhal...@hotmail.com>
She was good, Bob. Can't say "is", as she is now dead, of course.
TD
Andrew Rose
Absolutely - and in my numerous calls over the last couple of days both
to the editor and his deputy at Gramophone and elsewhere in the US, I've
been speaking to people who've publicly championed Hatto, now forced to
admit that they were as taken in as so many others.
I think Gramophone have done well both to get to the bottom of this
quickly and then not to sensationalise the announcement on their web pages.
I suspect the next issue will provide a reasonable outline of the story
and background, but with only a couple of working days until they go to
press there'll be little new evidence to report, and a lot of humble pie
to be eaten...
rkhalona
You are keeping us in suspense. What's the skinny on Mr. B-C's
shenanigans?
RK
tomdeacon
wrote:
Indeed.
Good question.
I actually own the Bronfman discs and am able to make the comparison.
But first it would help to know which concertos he is claiming are
identical.
I am increasingly suspicious of a hoax, alright. It just may not be
the hoax that all here are thinking of.
TD
Andrew Rose
shrinking the durations, the producers of the CDs have sought to muddy
the waters and disguise the origins of the CDs. Then again, there may be
further clues to be had...
Andrew Rose
>
> I actually own the Bronfman discs and am able to make the comparison.
> But first it would help to know which concertos he is claiming are
> identical.
It'll be either the 2nd or the 3rd - or both, or neither. The suggestion
has come from an American reviewer - it's taken a while to get the
appropriate discs from various UK reviewers to somewhere in England
where digital copies can be sent to me in France. Should be able to
start work on this tomorrow, as long as the UK postal service meets its
delivery targets...
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
As a critic all you can do is review what's in front of you. A CD
review is not the place to air suspicions of circumstances not quite
ringing true or adding up.
tomdeacon
> On 15 Feb, 23:11, "tomdeacon" <tomdedea...@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 15, 4:55 pm, Andrew Rose <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>
> > > tomdeacon wrote:
>
> > > > You will not be unhappy with the Scarlatti, John. I have four of her
> > > > Scarlatti CDs. I simply don't know other versions of this music which
> > > > sound like this.
>
> > > > Ditto for her Ravel.
>
> > > What's the odds they're not doctored versions of other performances?
> > > Doesn't mean they weren't great to start with.
>
> > > In my admittedly limited experience - two discs - of Hatto, I've yet to
> > > find one which has not been ripped off from another recording...
>
> > Indeed.
>
> > Limited experience.
>
> > One thing is sure: if you are wrong, I do hope you have a very good
> > lawyer. You'll need one.
>
> > TD
>
> Oh Tom, you are hilarious. Have you listened to the BIS recording of
> the Liszt Treanscendentals? If not, I suggest you do.
I do not have access to Mr. Simon's Liszt TEs.
> Even without this evidence, the whole Hatto affair was so blatantly
> suspicious I'm surprised more people didn't question it.
Everyone, including myself, was curious, if not suspicious. There was
no reason to be suspicious. You don't "question" a recording which you
have every reason to believe is authentic. Unless you are a born
"doubting Thomas", of course.
> It'll be Mr Barrington-Coupe who'll need the lawyers. Not for the first time.
????
Perhaps you could do more than insinuate?
TD
rkhalona
What would be really funny is if some of these 'unanimously acclaimed'
Hatto recordings turn out to be by pianists who have been panned
before by the critical intelligentsia.
RK
Jakko_...@yahoo.com
> On Feb 15, 2:19 pm, simon.la...@hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 15 Feb, 22:06, Andrew Rose <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>
> > > alanwatkin...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > >> Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> > > >> The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
>
> > > > recordings and, if so, by whom?
>
> > > The system simply checks CD track durations against a central database.
> > > If there's a close match but no exact match it'll suggest that as a
> > > possible hit, as I understand it. This gave a few clues but proved
> > > nothing - just a place to start looking.
>
> > > The proof is online, awaiting your expert ears...
>
> > > Andrew Rose - Pristine Classical
>
> > > The online home of Classical Music:www.pristineclassical.com
>
> > Laszlo Simon's he'll hear for himself that they are (except for tracks
> > 5 and 12) the same. If he can't there's something wrong with his ears.
>
> All evidence is that there is something wrong with his ears - VPO/BPO
> anyone? Would that this is his only flaw. He is wrong from his
> hooved feet to his horned head. No wonder Pogorelich had nothing to
> do with him. Pogo could smell the stench of sulphur eminating from
> the Deacon from a considerable distance of course.
>
>
>
> > Many more of Hatto's recordings will be correctly identified over the
> > coming weeks, now that this has started to unravel.
>
> Oh, that will be fun! Let's see Deacon, Graham, Lumpe, Watkins and
> all the others should go into hiding (who else who has perpetrated
> this fraud have I forgotten?). In Deacon's case he can go listen to
> all of the Hoaxo discs he bought. This old fraud has been flacking
> this hoax for a considerable time. He obviously knows diddly squat
> about music not to mention piano playing. He owes everyone an apology
> the old narcissist. Of course he is undoubtedly admiring himself in
> his magic mirror right now. While he sees himself (and no one else)
> as a beauteous creature most others seem him for the dispicable ugly
> fraud he is. If he had even a dust motes worth of decency he would
> issue an apology. Alas, he is now permanently affixed to his mirror
> gazing upon his hideous visage. He is incapable of ever admitting
> fault.
>
>
>
> > As for Tom Deacon's amusing statement that his only regret about the
> > Philips Great Pianists series was the exclusion of Joyce Hatto, I only
> > hope that his numerous friends here are ready to remind of this.
>
> I don't think there is much to worry about in this respect. Deacon's
> already tenuous grip on reality along with non-existent credibility
> will do nothing but elicit scorn for everything his addled mind utters
> from now on, of course.
>
>
>
> > SL
>
> Taffy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
As long as hoaxes are being exposed is it true that Alan Watkins is
really a sock puppet of Tom Deacon?
Jakko
tomdeacon
> "Andrew Rose" <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote in message
>
> news:45d4ceb0$0$5078$ba4a...@news.orange.fr...
>
>
>
> > Published this evening on the Gramophone website:
>
>
> > "BREAKING NEWS"
>
> > Masterpieces Or Fakes? The Joyce Hatto Scandal February 15 2007
> ...
>
> > Several days ago, another Gramophone critic decided to listen to a Hatto
> > Liszt CD, of the 12 Transcendental Studies. He put the disc into his
> > computer to listen, and something awfully strange happened. His iTunes
> > player identified the disc as, yes, the Liszts, but not a Hatto recording.
> > Instead, his display suggested that the disc was one on BIS Records, by
> > the pianist Lazlo Simon. Mystified, our critic checked his Hatto disc
> > against the actual Simon recording, and to his amazement they sounded
> > exactly the same.
>
> > In then went a recording of Hatto playing two Rachmaninov Piano Concertos
> > conducted by Esa-Pekka Salonen, on Sony. Again, the critic compared, and
> > again he could hear no difference.
>
> So, all you Hatto recording owners, how much work can it be to try all your
> Hatto CDs in iTunes???
>
> Do not keep us in suspense! Who did the Ravel, and the Mozart?
I have put many Hatto discs into iTunes and NEVER come up with any
previous names identified as the pianist.
That includes all of her Scarlatti, many Godowsky Etudes, the Brahms
2, and so on and on.
The problem with iTunes is that ANYONE can enter this information and
change it ad libitum.
TD
Taffy Brendel
No you old fool, Bob is probably correct as many of the pianists that
are supposed to be the fictional Hatto are indeed alive. Now begone
you idiot.
Taffy
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
The names in iTunes is a red-herring. At best it provides a clue as to
which recording to compare the Hatto with.
I have compared the Hatto Liszt TEs with the Simon, and (apart from
tracks 5 and 12) they are the same. That would be the case regardless
of what any text on the web was telling me.
Andrew Rose
>
>> It'll be Mr Barrington-Coupe who'll need the lawyers. Not for the first time.
>
> ????
>
> Perhaps you could do more than insinuate?
>
Hmm, let me see. Wholesale piracy of product from a wide range of
different record companies? Making money off the backs of other
performers? Deceiving everyone who's bought the faked CDs?
Nah - don't suppose any lawyers would be at all interested...
JohnGavin
>
> - Show quoted text -
Here is a question I have for anyone familiar with Joyce Hatto's
recorded work. Do you have doubts that they can all be of the same
pianist?? Wasn't it Peter Lemken who posted something to the effect
that the Mozart playing couldn't be the same pianist as the Prokofiev?
(That post really caught my attention).
We know that Richter or Horowitz or Michelangeli or DeLarrocha are
very recognizeable in all their repertoire. Is there a similar touch,
stylistic consistency in the range of Hatto's recordings?
Andrew Rose
>
> The problem with iTunes is that ANYONE can enter this information and
> change it ad libitum.
Which is precisely why it's not being cited as evidence, just as
something which provided a possible route of investigation...
Paul Goldstein
says...
>
>On Feb 15, 1:20 pm, Andrew Rose <and...@pristineaudio.com> wrote:
>
>> To love Hatto recordings was to be in
>> the know, a true piano aficionado who didn't need the hype of a major
>> label's marketing spend to recognise a good, a great, thing when they
>> heard it.
>>
>
>bandwagon.
LOL. I sampled one Hatto disc, of Chopin, found it mediocre, and went no
further. I wonder whose mediocre Chopin I was really listening to? Oh, this is
a delicious one. Has the ex-DJ previously opined that Nojima's Liszt, for
example, was lousy? That would be too funny. (Incidentally, the forger at
least has good taste - Nojima's Reference Liszt CD is outstanding!)
>I wonder what RMCR's resident DJ has to say about this.
I'm sure he'll humbly apologize to Peter Lemken, Andrew Rose, and everybody else
who has exposed this fraud.
>BTW, if the digital sound files match, why the question mark on the
>subject line?
(Over?)abundance of caution by Gramophone's legal dept.
Andrew Rose
> tomdeacon wrote:
>>
>>> It'll be Mr Barrington-Coupe who'll need the lawyers. Not for the
>>> first time.
>>
>> ????
>>
>> Perhaps you could do more than insinuate?
>>
>
> Hmm, let me see. Wholesale piracy of product from a wide range of
> different record companies? Making money off the backs of other
> performers? Deceiving everyone who's bought the faked CDs?
>
> Nah - don't suppose any lawyers would be at all interested...
>
>
Sorry, missed the 'first time' bit. I did hear a rumour this afternoon,
albeit from a reliable and very well-placed source, that he may have had
a spot of bother in the past with the law. I can't say any more, but I'm
sure there's someone busy checking this out right now with court records
and the like...
But right now - unless anyone knows to the contrary - it's nothing more
than rumour and gossip, and I'm not prepared to elaborate on the
accusation I heard.
David Fox
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh my. The hole you're digging yourself gets deeper and deeper.
Haven't you ever learned to quit while you're behind?
DF
Andrew Rose
>
> Here is a question I have for anyone familiar with Joyce Hatto's
> recorded work. Do you have doubts that they can all be of the same
> pianist?? Wasn't it Peter Lemken who posted something to the effect
> that the Mozart playing couldn't be the same pianist as the Prokofiev?
> (That post really caught my attention).
I recalled it yesterday and went back looking for the thread. Peter
joined in later on, but this was what started it off:
"After hearing so much about Joyce Hatto, I started purchasing some of
her recordings. While nothing I have heard is bad (in fact, I am glad I
bought these CDs), I have noticed something eerie: that the pianist
playing the Mozart sonatas _cannot be_ the pianist playing Prokofiev
_or_ the pianist playing Albeniz. I have the distinct feeling of being
the victim of some sort of hoax. Does anyone else share these feelings?
What is actually known about the artist and the circumstances? I looked
on the web and all I can find is some sort of official story, nothing
independent.
Cheers,
Seth"
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yep, he certainly did. And unlike so much of Hatto's biography,
Barrington-Coupe's will be able to be corroborated.
Phil Caron
news:150220071818471668%ow...@idsx.netx...
> In article <1171581299....@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> JohnGavin <dag...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> I've looked up reviews for Ms. Hatto's recordings at various sites
>> over the last 6 months or so. The reviews are almost unanimously
>> superlative, and by many who really know piano recordings, like Jed
>> Distler. If someone orchestrated an elaborate hoax, they certainly
>> knew how to choose good recordings! Take for example Ms. Hatto's
>> Vingt Regards. Superlative reviews - calling it competitive and even
>> surpassing the likes of P. Serkin, Osborne and Aimard. Just finding
>> another recording of the Messiaen to create a hoax, and having that
>> recording's true identity elude the radar of experts, while they call
>> it the best version they've heard is practically genius!
>>
>
> Maybe the flip side of this story is that there's a whole lot of really
> good music out there that we don't get to here because it's been
> ignored or neglected.
>
- Phil Caron
rkhalona
Are you saying that no one has ever seen the DJ and Watkins at the
same place at the same time? Oh my, we're surrounded by hoaxes!
RK
Andrew Rose
>
>> BTW, if the digital sound files match, why the question mark on the
>> subject line?
>
> (Over?)abundance of caution by Gramophone's legal dept.
>
I'd rather people looked at the evidence and came to their own
conclusion. Having waded through the last major Hatto thread I was
merely exercising caution, given the strong feelings aired last time
round! Hence the question mark.
BTW this thread was not instigated by Gramophone - quite probably they
know nothing about it. I just thought it might be of some minor interest
here... :-)
thoma...@hotmail.com
But that would imply that TD is a formidable timpanist... Hmmm...
Taffy Brendel
Behind is the operative word here.
It is not possible for him to quit. He is a cultist and a
narcissist. His religion and his world have been upended. As
previously stated he (and Mr. Watkins are in denial). When the hoax
is fully exposed he will be able to join the class action suit to
recover his money for the fake cds. OTOH, after months of hawking
this phoney stuff he may well be sued for being an intrinsic part of
the hoax - hasn't he told of his many conversations with Coupe de
Fraud here on RMCR? Of course he has.
Taffy
David Fox
>
> - Show quoted text -
If Deacon had any sense of shame or even a single brain cell in his
head, he should log off of RMCR forever. I sure would if I were in
his place. I'm hoping that this is what finally gets us rid of him.
But, unfortunately, he has no shame. And not a single lonely brain
cell in his head.
DF
rkhalona
>
> >I am happy to count myself among the ignorant who never jumped on this
> >bandwagon.
>
> LOL. I sampled one Hatto disc, of Chopin, found it mediocre, and went no
> further. I wonder whose mediocre Chopin I was really listening to? Oh, this is
> a delicious one. Has the ex-DJ previously opined that Nojima's Liszt, for
> example, was lousy? That would be too funny.
I can hear the legions of Hatto fans: Say it ain't so Mr. Deacon!
RK
simon...@hotmail.co.uk
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well Mr Deacon and Mr Watkins have sure gone quiet. But it'll only be
temporary. I fear Deacon's position is so entrenched, and he's been so
unnecessarily insulting to so many people (people whose judgement has
proved to be better than his own), that he'll come up with
increasingly desperate arguments.
Incidentally, Joyce Hatto knew very well what was being done in her
name. Her husband certainly instigated it, but she was not ignorant of
it.
rkhalona
>
> It is not possible for him to quit. He is a cultist and a
> narcissist. His religion and his world have been upended. As
> previously stated he (and Mr. Watkins are in denial). When the hoax
> is fully exposed he will be able to join the class action suit to
> recover his money for the fake cds. OTOH, after months of hawking
> this phoney stuff he may well be sued for being an intrinsic part of
> the hoax - hasn't he told of his many conversations with Coupe de
> Fraud here on RMCR? Of course he has.
>
Coupe de Fraud!
HA HA HA HA HA!!
RK
David Fox
>
> - Show quoted text -
She must have known that the playing on the recordings wasn't hers.
Who knows though? Maybe her husband ushered her into a
"studio" (without the complications of actual microphones and tape
machines) and these recordings magically came out when they were
finished.
DF
Andrew Rose
>
> She must have known that the playing on the recordings wasn't hers.
> Who knows though? Maybe her husband ushered her into a
> "studio" (without the complications of actual microphones and tape
> machines) and these recordings magically came out when they were
> finished.
You'd think she'd have listened back to one or two of them, wouldn't
you? From the evidence of a recording we did last year with Peter Katin,
these pianists have a pretty solid grasp of what they've just played,
and where there might have been slight moments of difficulty requiring
remedial attention...
John Wilson
Well, the DJ is very good at beating his own drum so perhaps.......
Nope only a tinkling cymbal and further he doesn't know enough about
music to be a player.
John
Paul Goldstein
Jakko_...@Yahoo.com says...
>
>As long as hoaxes are being exposed is it true that Alan Watkins is
>really a sock puppet of Tom Deacon?
Come now. Alan Watkins is an excellent contributor to this NG who has proven
his knowledge, taste, and experience countless times.
thoma...@hotmail.com
> In article <1171582689.791891.71...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
> Jakko_Hofm...@Yahoo.com says...
>
>
>
> >As long as hoaxes are being exposed is it true that Alan Watkins is
> >really a sock puppet of Tom Deacon?
>
> Come now. Alan Watkins is an excellent contributor to this NG who has proven
> his knowledge, taste, and experience countless times.
Totally seconded.
Paul Goldstein
says...
>> A question. Has the Itunes data base been loaded with Ms Hatto's
>> recordings and, if so, by whom?
>>
>> Alan M. Watkins- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>CDDB (which iTunes uses) but that is hardly the point. The Gramophone
>piece says that if you insert the Hatto Rach 2 & 3, it identifies it
>as the Bronfman/Salonen recording. The CDDB algorithm is based on
>number and lengths of tracks. It is possible to get false positives,
>but in my experience the probability that the genres much less the
>pieces match is remote. I wouldn't take wagers on the statistical
>probability that Joyce Hatto plays each movement of each concerto at
>the same timing to the second as Yefim Bronfman.
The iTunes evidence may be subject to misinterpretation. The mere fact that
iTunes identified an ostensible Hatto CD as being the Bronfman CD does not in
itself prove anything. iTunes makes false identifications of classical CDs from
time to time. The iTunes ID of the Hatto as Bronfman does, however, raise a
question: Could it be that the Hatto CD is a copy of the Bronfman? That
question can be answered - and apparently has been answered - with irrefutable
scientific evidence
>The waveform comparison analysis is about as open and shut as evidence
>ever is. There's nothing to do but to stand back and watch the
>theater as this hoax unravels.
Exactly.
Taffy Brendel
If Joyce Hatto knew (assuming that she even existed - for all we know
if she did exist she may have died years ago allowing her name to be
exploited by the unscrupulous Coupe de Fraud not to mention the
cultist Deacon Watkins Hatto cult) then it is both a tradgedy and a
crime.
The next time we hear from the Deakster he will probably tell us that
he suspected a hoax all along but did not want to believe it. He has
no, 0, nada, rien credibility. He has been exposed as the total fraud
that he is. He is undoubtedly deaf all that um...*drum* beating has
caused him to go deaf and probably blind too (anyway that will be his
defense when he is sued for partaking in the perpitration of this
fraud - wait until Sony and others haul the dispicable DJ into
court). Hey Deacon where's the Hatto Bax sonatas? Oh that's right
Coupe de Fraud was preparing them from lps as the mastertapes are
damaged (wink wink).
Taffy
Paul Goldstein
alanwa...@aol.com says...
>
>A question. Has the Itunes data base been loaded with Ms Hatto's
>recordings and, if so, by whom?
The answer, Alan, seems to be "No." And precisely that omission has resulted in
exposure of the hoax! That's why iTunes could identify her Rach disc as
Bronfman's. The fraudsters weren't quick or smart enough to get the "Hatto"
data into the iTunes database.
Andrew Rose
> In article <1171577617....@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, David Fox
> says...
>>> A question. Has the Itunes data base been loaded with Ms Hatto's
>>> recordings and, if so, by whom?
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Alan M. Watkins- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> iTunes users may or may not have submitted Hatto track listings to
>> CDDB (which iTunes uses) but that is hardly the point. The Gramophone
>> piece says that if you insert the Hatto Rach 2 & 3, it identifies it
>> as the Bronfman/Salonen recording. The CDDB algorithm is based on
>> number and lengths of tracks. It is possible to get false positives,
>> but in my experience the probability that the genres much less the
>> pieces match is remote. I wouldn't take wagers on the statistical
>> probability that Joyce Hatto plays each movement of each concerto at
>> the same timing to the second as Yefim Bronfman.
>
> The iTunes evidence may be subject to misinterpretation. The mere fact that
> iTunes identified an ostensible Hatto CD as being the Bronfman CD does not in
> itself prove anything. iTunes makes false identifications of classical CDs from
> time to time. The iTunes ID of the Hatto as Bronfman does, however, raise a
> question: Could it be that the Hatto CD is a copy of the Bronfman? That
> question can be answered - and apparently has been answered - with irrefutable
> scientific evidence
>
To be clear - right now the question of the Bronfman remains open. I
hope to confirm one way or the other whether this is the source of the
Hatto recording within the next 24 hours.
I notice that Wikipedia has already been updated to suggest that it's
been confirmed, which is most certainly not the case, though suspicions
are clearly very high.
rkhalona
> > What would be really funny is if some of these 'unanimously acclaimed'
> > Hatto recordings turn out to be by pianists who have been panned
> > before by the critical intelligentsia.
>
> Now that the cat is out of the bag I'll fess up. I played the D960,
> Gaspard, and Wilde Jagd. Unnamed Brucknerthonites turned the pages for me.
> I am very pleased with the 10/10 I got ..
> By the way Ramon have you heard Szell's Bruckner 5th?
>
How can I trust it's Szell conducting? On a day like this, I doubt
everything! :-)
RK
Andrew Rose
>
> If Joyce Hatto knew (assuming that she even existed - for all we know
> if she did exist she may have died years ago allowing her name to be
> exploited by the unscrupulous Coupe de Fraud not to mention the
> cultist Deacon Watkins Hatto cult) then it is both a tradgedy and a
> crime.
An article in the Boston Globe on 21st August 2005 gives the clear
impression that the author met and spoke with Hatto, as well as her
husband, and quotes her extensively.
Paul Ilechko
> On Feb 15, 3:22 pm, "Royke" <r...@canada.com> wrote:
>> Even more surprising than this not being detected before, is that anyone
>> could be naive enough to think this would never be detected.
>>
>> Then again, this is good news for whoever the original pianists will turn
>> out to be, as surely the raving reviews ('miraculous performances' in the
>> Gramophon article) will remain valid.
>>
>> RJ
>
> What would be really funny is if some of these 'unanimously acclaimed'
> Hatto recordings turn out to be by pianists who have been panned
> before by the critical intelligentsia.
Which just proves that the objectivity is not what you might think that
it ought to be - reviewers listened to a Hatto performance *expecting*
it to be great, so it was, for them.
Jakko_...@yahoo.com
And here we thought the washed up DJ was just a nasty incontinent old
fool while all the time he has been hatching this hoax with Mr. Coupe
de Fraud to pull on an unsuspecting public. Shades of his phony
contracts for Authorized Richter Edition.
Jakko
neil97232
This proves nothing but should be mentioned in context of this thread
- the first disk of Hatto's Messiaen Vingt Regards comes up on iTunes'
database as being played by Paul S. Kim.
Can Andrew Rose obtain a copy of Kim's recording?
Neil Levenson