Why is Barenboim considered similar to Furtwangler?
ti42
to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
RX-01
news:Xns92B1D15D96...@202.183.255.6...
> I'm a novice classical music listner. Why is Barenboim considered similar
> to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
To be honest I can't hear it very clearly either. If we take Beethoven
symphonies performed by both conductors and try to compare them, both have
strong dynamic contrasts and slow tempos. Furtwangler also conveys a sense
of mystery that I do not always find in Barenboim.
Your questions is interesting because I don't find any major difference
between Barenboim and say Masur, Giulini, Sawallisch and Solti. When it
comes to Beethoven they all treat the symphonies the same way. And this also
applies to their interpretations of other German composers, such as Brahms
for instance.
Indeed don't all of the above conductors hava a similar approach with
Furtwangler? Perhaps Barenboim is always the one compared with Furtwangler
because of his declared admiration for him.
RX-01
Matthew B. Tepper
typed in news:Xns92B1D15D96...@202.183.255.6:
> I'm a novice classical music listner. Why is Barenboim considered
> similar to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
Wishful thinking on the part of admirers of the former. Although I did
hear him conduct a Bruckner 9th here in Los Angeles about thirty years
ago, and it seemed to have certain features of intensity and grandeur
that I already knew from Furtwängler recordings. So go figure.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church
Curtis Croulet
declared himself a disciple (essentially) of Furtwängler.
Has anyone actually claimed Barenboim to be "similar?"
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
33° 27' 59"N, 117° 05' 53"W
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: I'm a novice classical music listner. Why is Barenboim considered similar
: to Furtwangler?
Well, have *you* ever seen a photograph of the two of them standing next
to each other?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"That's *genius*!"
"Really? I thought it was Rachmaninov."
Gerrit Stolte
>"ti42" <t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:Xns92B1D15D96...@202.183.255.6...
>> I'm a novice classical music listner. Why is Barenboim considered similar
>> to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
>
>To be honest I can't hear it very clearly either. If we take Beethoven
>symphonies performed by both conductors and try to compare them, both have
>strong dynamic contrasts and slow tempos. Furtwangler also conveys a sense
>of mystery that I do not always find in Barenboim.
I wouldn't exactly call Furtwängler's tempos slow. At least not
universally slow as Klemperer's or Konwitschny's tempos. I'd rather
call Furwängler's tempi flowing. He used to speed passages up (the
coda of Beethoven 5/IV), while slowing others down (the transistion
from Beethoven 5/III to IV). The only performance of Barenboim I
have, where he tries to impose a similar approach to tempi is a
videotape of the *Ring*. The difference, though, is, that
Furtwängler's way worked, while that of Barenboim doesn't convince me.
[Barenboim, Masur, Giulini, Sawallisch and Solti]
>Indeed don't all of the above conductors hava a similar approach with
>Furtwangler?
No to my ears. Solti's approach seems closer to, say, Toscanini.
Highly dramatic with constant tempi. And while Masur certainly was not
as fast in most interpretations as Solti or Toscanini, his
performances usually didn't involve flowing tempi. Have yet to give
Giulini and Sawallisch a closer listen.
Gerrit
Paul Goldstein
>
>In article <Xns92B1D15D96...@202.183.255.6>, ti42 <t...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>: I'm a novice classical music listner. Why is Barenboim considered similar
>: to Furtwangler?
>
>Well, have *you* ever seen a photograph of the two of them standing next
>to each other?
As a matter of fact, yes, I think I have.
Paul Goldstein
MIFrost
seems long and, well, rounded, as opposed to sharp and edgy like Szell
and Toscanini. Whether his conducting is as "magical" and "deeply
moving" as Furt's, well, I don't know about that. But I think the
overall impression, of slow and langorous music-making, is **similar**
in both. Personally, I tend to subconsciously categorize performers in
the Toscanini, Furtwangler or in-between camps, depending upon how
fast and "severely" they play. Barenboim and Giulini are in the
latter; Szell, Solti and the '62 Karajan are in the former.
MIFrost
ti42 <t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Xns92B1D15D96...@202.183.255.6>...
David7Gable
>interview with Arrau that he disliked Klemperer's Mozart operas in
>Berlin in the twenties because he found them too fast!
Stravinsky on Klemperer: "Klemperer was sometimes guilty of erratic
tempi--they raced in the twenties as now they are inclined to mope--but his
musical instincts were amazingly right."
-david gable
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: In article <ap9a0r$qoq$4...@news.iucc.ac.il>, <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il says...
So I see you've been taken in by the conspiracy too. Did you notice
the black helicopters in the background?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"How many boards would the Mongols hoard if the Mongol hordes got bored?"
David7Gable
Furtwängler's Brahms, Bruckner, and Wagner isn't slow in the least. It's only
in classical repertory that he's comparatively slow.
-david gable
Simon Roberts
>
>It's a minor point and does not affect what you have say about
>Furtwängler and Barenboim, but:
>It seems that Klemperer got slower as he grew older. There are live
>recordings of Bruckner IV, VII, VIII from 1957, 58, 57 which are
>indeed rather fast. No. 8 e. g. fits on one disc, unlike the
>studio-recording from 1970 or 71. I remember having read in an
>interview with Arrau that he disliked Klemperer's Mozart operas in
>Berlin in the twenties because he found them too fast!
One might find his Mozart 25/i and 36/i from the 1950s too fast (I don't
think anyone's done them faster, before or since). His 503 with Barenboim
is one of the faster performances on disc, for that matter (c. 1970?).
Simon
Paul Goldstein
says...
>
>
>Furtwängler's Brahms, Bruckner, and Wagner isn't slow in the least. It's only
>in classical repertory that he's comparatively slow.
And even there, I think it is a fair generalization that he takes fast parts
faster and slow parts slower than average, so that there is no overwhelming
impression of slowness at all.
Furtwangler ultimately is sui generis, and it is misleading to say that anyone
else's performances resemble his.
Paul Goldstein
Matthew B. Tepper
Brendan R. Wehrung
> I'm a novice classical music listner. Why is Barenboim considered similar
> to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
The original claim was his, that he modelled himself after the earlier
conductor. I can't think of any great conductor who became a perfect
imitation of a chosen idol, but if a Furtwaengler-admiring young conductor
became a good Barenboim, I suppose it doesn't hurt. Maybe Matthew could
come up with a couple of echt-Toscaninis who remained true to their (his)
vision.
Brendan
JRsnfld
the Toscanini, Furtwangler or in-between camps, depending upon how
fast and "severely" they play. Barenboim and Giulini are in the
latter; Szell, Solti and the '62 Karajan are in the former. >>
It's easier to consider this in terms of a Kondrashin v. Rozhdestvensky
duality. Barenboim and Giulini are in the Rozhdestvensky camp; Toscanini, Szell
and Solti are in the Kondrashin camp. Furtwangler was booted out of camp long
ago, along with Golovanov, Mengelberg and Fried.
The best thing is to get rid of the "categories" of this kind, altogether,
because no two conductors are *that* similar to a conductor of a previous era.
I remember a review of Solti's Beethoven that claimed Solti had managed to fuse
the styles of Toscanini and Furtwangler in one set for the ages. With all due
respect to these fine recordings, how much more confusing and wrong could a
reviewer be?
--Jeff
Nicolas Hodges
>ti42 (t...@yahoo.com) writes:
>> I'm a novice classical music listner. Why is Barenboim considered similar
>> to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
>
>
>The original claim was his, that he modelled himself after the earlier
>conductor.
Did he really say exactly that? For him to have done so seems
vanishingly unlikely.
--
Nic
I reserve the right to use irony and obscure forms of humour without warning
Paul Goldstein
says...
>
><< Personally, I tend to subconsciously categorize performers in
>the Toscanini, Furtwangler or in-between camps, depending upon how
>fast and "severely" they play. Barenboim and Giulini are in the
>latter; Szell, Solti and the '62 Karajan are in the former. >>
>
>It's easier to consider this in terms of a Kondrashin v. Rozhdestvensky
>duality. Barenboim and Giulini are in the Rozhdestvensky camp; Toscanini, Szell
>and Solti are in the Kondrashin camp.
I realize that the above is probably tongue-in-cheek, but have you heard
Kondrashin's Brahms? It is about as far from the 3 campsters you cite as
possible, and is much closer to, say, what I'd imagine a Konwitschny Brahms
cycle would be like.
Paul Goldstein
David7Gable
Barenboim is a very strange case. He's obviously extremely gifted, but so many
of his performances are indifferent. I for one am grateful that he catches
fire when he's conducting new music by composers who seem to interest him, and
I can't imagine a finer conductor of Elliott Carter's music. One of the most
moving experiences of my life was a Barenboim performance of Carter's Adagio
tenebroso, and I vastly prefer Barenboim's old-fashioned Furtwänglerian phrased
Carter to the smooth and elegant Carter of Boulez, Knussen, and especially
David Robertson. (Robertson treats Carter's Clarinet Concerto like Philip
Glass.) Carter's whole style, his whole approach to rhythm, could be described
as a continuous written out rubato, and it's deeply rooted in an essentially
old fashioned sense of phrasing. Barenboim's live performance of four
movements from Boulez's Visage nuptial with the CSO were certainly more vivid
and fiery than Boulez's own tame Erato recording.
I've heard Barenboim live with the CSO many times, and when he was on he was on
he was very very good and when he was not he was dull. A live staged Cosi with
Barenboim and the CSO is one of my fondest memories of Orchestra Hall. Made me
wish I had gotten my act together to hear Figaro and Don Giovanni the same
season. (Barenboim lead all three Da Ponte operas that season. Opera at the
CSO is always great!)
I think one problem with some of Barenboim's performances is that he needs, not
a timid modern orchestra that avoids deeply etched phrasing, but an old
fashioned one to accomplish what he wants to. It's all well and good for him
to stand there conducting phrases, but not if the orchestra is comparatively
unresponsive. The obvious retort to this is that it's the conductor's job to
induce a response, but no conductor is going to be able to induce the same kind
of response from any of the great orchestras of today that he might have
induced from one of the great orchestras of, say, 1950.
-david gable
JRsnfld
>the Toscanini, Furtwangler or in-between camps, depending upon how
>fast and "severely" they play. Barenboim and Giulini are in the
>latter; Szell, Solti and the '62 Karajan are in the former. >>
>
>It's easier to consider this in terms of a Kondrashin v. Rozhdestvensky
>duality. Barenboim and Giulini are in the Rozhdestvensky camp; Toscanini,
Szell
>and Solti are in the Kondrashin camp.
I realize that the above is probably tongue-in-cheek, but have you heard
Kondrashin's Brahms? It is about as far from the 3 campsters you cite as
possible, and is much closer to, say, what I'd imagine a Konwitschny Brahms
cycle would be like. >>
It's largely tongue in cheek...but not entirely. The duality is more based on
comparison of Sibelius, Shostakovich, Rachmaninov, and Tchaikovsky
performances, central repertoire if ever there was any. I actually don't think
of Kondrashin as fast and inflexible, or Rozhdesvensky as only lugubrious, if
that's what you mean.
I'd like to allow myself the opportunity to hear more of Kondrashin's Brahms (I
think I've heard one of the Concertgebouw recordings on Philips). I'm sure I
haven't heard Rozhdestvensky conduct any. And I can imagine Rozhdestvensky's
Mahler might be quite interesting, but Kondrashin's is definitely great, plenty
of fire and flexibility.
Certainly the vast differences between Giulini's Bruckner and Barenboim's, or
between their Mahler and Brahms and Mozart and Tchaikovsky etc. etc., suggests
that they aren't in a camp together anyway.
--Jeff
Edward A. Cowan
> Stravinsky on Klemperer: "Klemperer was sometimes guilty of erratic
> tempi--they raced in the twenties as now they are inclined to mope--but his
> musical instincts were amazingly right."
My guess is that, in his youth, Otto Klemperer was, in his musical
activities, a kind of predecessor of Robert Craft: Both promoted what
was then "modern music". To be sure, Craft is associated primarily with
Igor Stravinsky. It is a tribute to Klemperer's standing that Thomas
Mann, in his novel _The Magic Mountain_, attributes the premiere of the
(fictional) work of Adrian Leverkuehn to Otto Klemperer. (What Klemperer
thought of that attribution is not known to me...)
--E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
in G-minor, K.550? I suggest that "comparatively slow" is hardly the
word for that performance...
David7Gable <david...@aol.com> wrote:
--E.A.C.
Marc Perman
"Brendan R. Wehrung" <ck...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:ap9l82$rjk$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>
> The original claim was his, that he modelled himself after the
earlier
> conductor. I can't think of any great conductor who became a
perfect
> imitation of a chosen idol, but if a Furtwaengler-admiring young
conductor
> became a good Barenboim, I suppose it doesn't hurt. Maybe
Matthew could
> come up with a couple of echt-Toscaninis who remained true to
their (his)
> vision.
Barenboim has become a better conductor as he's gotten older. His
Beethoven and BPO Bruckner cycles are mostly wonderful, as I
suspect are his recent Wagner recordings, though I haven't heard
them.
Marc Perman
REG
and it's always been a part of his press. In addition, in the late 60s and
early 70s, when he and DuPre and Zuckerman et al were all kind of hanging
out for the benefit of the media, there were a number of interviews where
Barenboim spoke of Furt's influence, and how the group was very taken with
Furt's interpretations of various pieces. He also for quite a while, IMHO,
adopted a very ponderous approach to music making which seemed to beg
comparison with Furt's (although I see no similarity) - the best evidence
for Barenboim's approach is in the first, disasterous set of Moart/DaPonte
operas he recorded.
"ti42" <t...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92B1D15D96...@202.183.255.6...
David7Gable
I'm not sure I'm in a position to make such an assessment, but I like a lot of
the performances in Barenboim's mid-60's Mozart symphony box very much.
-david gable
Matthew B. Tepper
the following letters to be typed in
The usual example given is Cantelli, and maybe a few of the NBC men who
pursued conducting careers with results good or ill (Wallenstein, Katims,
Miller); but Robert Shaw could be argued as well.
Your Pal Brian
> > Maybe
> > Matthew could come up with a couple of echt-Toscaninis who remained
> > true to their (his) vision.
>
> The usual example given is Cantelli, and maybe a few of the NBC men who
> pursued conducting careers with results good or ill (Wallenstein, Katims,
> Miller); but Robert Shaw could be argued as well.
Wasn't Karajan a big admirer of Toscanini? I recall reading that somewhere.
The only similarities I can see are fastish tempos in some Beethoven. (All
the usual over-generalization caveats apply, of course.)
Brian
bal...@australia.edu
Reiner mold or for that matter, Walter or HvK or Leibowitz or
Weingartner or Mengelberg. Let's give each of these conductors their
due - Barenboim included!
Cheers
Baldric
Johannes Roehl
>
> eac...@anet-dfw.com (Edward A. Cowan) wrote in
> news:1fkknqe.1xau3gg1prkykkN%eac...@anet-dfw.com:
>
> > My guess is that, in his youth, Otto Klemperer was, in his musical
> > activities, a kind of predecessor of Robert Craft: Both promoted
> > what was then "modern music". To be sure, Craft is associated
> > primarily with Igor Stravinsky. It is a tribute to Klemperer's
> > standing that Thomas Mann, in his novel _The Magic Mountain_,
> > attributes the premiere of the (fictional) work of Adrian
> > Leverkuehn to Otto Klemperer. (What Klemperer thought of that
> > attribution is not known to me...)
>
> working on "Dr. Faustus".
> Anyway, anything Adrian Leverkühn wrote stands high above Poulenc's
> works ;-) .
Of course and not surprisingly as Leverkühns works are an
odd mix of real ones by Mahler, Schönberg, Berg and other
composers each far superior to Poulenc. Wasn't the
Violinkonzert premiered by Klemperer (Rudi Schwerdtfeger
played the violin of course)?
And Prof. Cowan is confused: there is no Klemperer or
Leverkühn in the Magic Mountain, only in Dr Faustus.
Few people seem to know that even conductors not
particularly associated with the then contemporary music,
conducted/played a lot of it, for instance IIRC Furtwängler
conducted the world premiere of Bartoks 2nd piano concerto.
Johannes
Simon Roberts
wrote:
>
>Wasn't Karajan a big admirer of Toscanini? I recall reading that somewhere.
Evidently to the extent of having his RCA Beethoven 9th in the studio with
him when making his first DG recording of the piece.
>The only similarities I can see are fastish tempos in some Beethoven.
Right - but then, you can admire without emulating (and seek to emulate
without succeeding). I doubt anyone listening to a performance of
anything conducted by Robert Shaw would guess merely from doing so the
extent to which he was associated with Toscanini....
Simon
Edward A. Cowan
_The Magic Mountain_. I meant, of course, _Dr. Faustus_. I recall that,
while taking a Thomas Mann seminar at Penn, the Philadelphia Orchestra
offered the AP of Penderecki's _Utrenja, The Entombment of Christ_. A
fellow-student and I agreed that this work sounded a lot like
Leverkuehn's "Doctor Fausti Weheklag" ("Dr. Faust's Lament"), the
composition that was (fictionally) premiered by Klemperer. --E.A.C.
Andante teneramente <db...@gmx.de> wrote:
[EAC wrote, unfortunately!]:
> It is a tribute to Klemperer's
> > standing that Thomas Mann, in his novel _The Magic Mountain_,
> > attributes the premiere of the (fictional) work of Adrian
> > Leverkuehn to Otto Klemperer. (What Klemperer thought of that
> > attribution is not known to me...)
>
> I guess Th. Mann asked him. They met several times while Mann was
> working on "Dr. Faustus".
> Anyway, anything Adrian Leverkühn wrote stands high above Poulenc's
> works ;-) .
--E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
> And Prof. Cowan is confused: there is no Klemperer or
> Leverkühn in the Magic Mountain, only in Dr Faustus.
Thanks! See my acknowledgement of the correction in another message in
this thread.
--E.A.C.
RX-01
characteristics is that he slows down certain passages and then speeds up
again. Barenboim does the same in his Beethoven symphony cycle for Teldec
(listen for instance 7ii and 9i).
In my opinion his Beethoven symphony cycle is among the greatest, along with
Karajan's 60s, Wand's and Blomstedt's. Indeed it is now my favourite set of
symphonies. These are grand, powerful and idiosyncratic performances that
really stand out. I paricularly like the way Barenboim adjusts the dynamic
contrasts and moulds the orchestral sound so that it sounds full-bodied.
However, I do understand that people who prefer a HIP approach will not like
this set.
RX-01
<bal...@australia.edu> wrote in message
news:afe35cfd.02102...@posting.google.com...
Simon Roberts
>As an earlier poster in this thread mentioned, one of Furtwaengler's
>characteristics is that he slows down certain passages and then speeds up
>again. Barenboim does the same in his Beethoven symphony cycle for Teldec
>(listen for instance 7ii and 9i).
>
>In my opinion his Beethoven symphony cycle is among the greatest, along with
>Karajan's 60s, Wand's and Blomstedt's. Indeed it is now my favourite set of
>symphonies. These are grand, powerful and idiosyncratic performances that
>really stand out. I paricularly like the way Barenboim adjusts the dynamic
>contrasts and moulds the orchestral sound so that it sounds full-bodied.
>However, I do understand that people who prefer a HIP approach will not like
>this set.
Some rather odd people (or, at least, this rather odd person) like both.
Simon
Johannes Roehl
There is, however a wonderful and entertaining chapter on
music (on recordings!) in Der Zauberberg, 'Fülle des
Wohllauts'
It is sometimes (at least I have seen it once and there used
to be a DG record of such a thing) read by actors who also
put on appropriate historical recordings of the music.
Johannes
Johannes Roehl
> Johannes Roehl <johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote in
> news:3DB94203...@physik.uni-giessen.de:
>
> > There is, however a wonderful and entertaining chapter on
> > music (on recordings!) in Der Zauberberg, 'Fülle des
> > Wohllauts'
> > It is sometimes (at least I have seen it once and there used
> > to be a DG record of such a thing) read by actors who also
> > put on appropriate historical recordings of the music.
>
> "Celeste Aida" and "La fatal pietra sovra me - O terra addio" were
> Caruso's recordings iirc.
> To - at least - one recording Mann comes back in "Dr. Faustus": "Mon
> coeur s'ouvre à ta voix". Do you happen to know which particular
> recording Mann had here in mind?
No clue (I don't even know the pieces with the french
title); I ma not even sure they used the proper recordings
at the performance I attended (they sounded old, but not
like pre WWI); for the Schubert songs I believe it was
Schlusnus, which is from the 30ties, quite a bit later than
Hans in the Berghof...
Johannes
Brian Park
news:4I1u9.38801$Up6.9...@twister.nyc.rr.com...
>
> Barenboim has become a better conductor as he's gotten older. His
> Beethoven and BPO Bruckner cycles are mostly wonderful, as I
> suspect are his recent Wagner recordings, though I haven't heard
> them.
>
Much of Barenboim's recent Teldec recordings of Wagner have been very good,
in fact. The only real "turkey" I can think of is the Meistersinger. But
his Tristan is good, his Ring Cycle is very good, and his Lohengrin and
Parsifal are both outstanding. His orchestral excerpts discs with the CSO
are all excellent too. I haven't heard the new Tannhauser but I'd still be
willing to go out on a limb and say that Barenboim is probably the best
living Wagner conductor we have today.
Brian Park
Dan Koren
That's good -- no prejudices :)
> Why is Barenboim considered similar
> to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
Neither can I. Methinks Barenboim is
considered similar to Furtwaengler
mainly because he suffers from the
same disease -- he is seriously,
terminally serious. He does not
make music when he conducts, he
rather performs a sacred service
-- or so he thinks.
dk
Dan Koren
Barenboim's due is a concert tour in Antarctica.
dk
Dan Koren
> news:ap9l82$rjk$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
> >
> > The original claim was his, that he modelled himself after the
> earlier
> > conductor. I can't think of any great conductor who became a
> perfect
> > imitation of a chosen idol, but if a Furtwaengler-admiring young
> conductor
> > became a good Barenboim, I suppose it doesn't hurt. Maybe
> Matthew could
> > come up with a couple of echt-Toscaninis who remained true to
> their (his)
> > vision.
>
> Barenboim has become a better conductor as he's
> gotten older.
Yes indeed -- unfortunately still not good enough.
Why doesn't the man simply retire? Hasn't he paid
off his mortgage(s) yet?
> His Beethoven and BPO Bruckner cycles are mostly
> wonderful,
heavier than platinum :)
> as I suspect are his recent Wagner recordings,
> though I haven't heard them.
Can we hope suspicion might lead to indictment?
dk
Dan Koren
He merely forgot to add Ormandy to
the mix -- that would have described
Solti perfectly.
dk
RX-01
Dan Koren wrote:
> ti42 wrote in message news:...
>
> >I'm a novice classical music listener.
>
>
> That's good -- no prejudices :)
>
>
> >Why is Barenboim considered similar
> >to Furtwangler? I can't hear it.
>
>
> Neither can I. Methinks Barenboim is
> considered similar to Furtwaengler
> mainly because he suffers from the
> same disease -- he is seriously,
> terminally serious. He does not
> make music when he conducts, he
> rather performs a sacred service
> -- or so he thinks.
>
>
> dk
Perhaps for some people music *is* a sacred service.
RX-01
Matthew B. Tepper
Edward A. Cowan
> I'm sorry to be a nitpicker today. Does Mann mention a performance
> of "Doctor Fausti Weheklag" at all?
> I remember that Klemperer was the conductor of the fictional
> premiere of the "Apocalipsis cum figuris". But iirc like some real
> composers of 20th century music, particularly the Viennese school,
> Leverkühn had trouble being performed at all. And iirc "Dr. Fausti
> Weheklag" remains unperformed to the end of the novel.
I'm sure I was writing from off the top of my head, a most unreliable
resource at my age! It must have been the "Apocalisis cum figuris" that
Klemperer (fictionally) conducted. In any case, to this day, I associate
Penderecki's "Utrenja" with that fictional composition.
--E.A.C.
Edward A. Cowan
Strings Attached: Reminiscences and Reflections_, New York: Knopf,
1947), chapter 16, pp.143-158, in which, among other reflections about
the history and possible future of recordings, the author gives his
ideas about which recordings Hans Castorp listens to in that great novel
by Thomas Mann. (This passage is on pp.152-158 of Szigeti's book.)
The "Largo al factotum" from _Barbiere_ is attributed by Szigeti to a
recording by Titta Ruffo; the aria from _La traviata_ was, he guesses,
by either Selma Kurz or Tetrazzini; the excerpts from _Carmen_, _Aida_,
and _Faust_ were likely those by Caruso and Anton van Rooy (a celebrated
Wagnerian baritone of the first decade of the last century) -- in
particular, Schubert's "Der Lindenbaum" was likely by Van Rooy. He even
quotes a letter to himself from Thomas Mann on this subject, dated 24
Dec. 1943. Szigeti further speculates that the "idyll, yet _raffiné_,
shaped and turned with all the subtlety and economy of the most modern
art" was likely Debussy's _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_. And the
Romance by Anton Rubinstein was likely Szigeti's own early recording of
that work.
There is a list of Szigeti's recordings in an appendix to the book,
though catalogue numbers are given only for his electrical recordings.
But the appendix does mention the violinist's pre-1914 recordings for
the Gramophone Company, Ltd. and a Russian label, _Muspred_.
Andante teneramente <db...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Johannes Roehl <johanne...@physik.uni-giessen.de> wrote in
> news:3DB94203...@physik.uni-giessen.de:
>
>
> > There is, however a wonderful and entertaining chapter on
> > music (on recordings!) in Der Zauberberg, 'Fülle des
> > Wohllauts'
> > It is sometimes (at least I have seen it once and there used
> > to be a DG record of such a thing) read by actors who also
> > put on appropriate historical recordings of the music.
>
> "Celeste Aida" and "La fatal pietra sovra me - O terra addio" were
> Caruso's recordings iirc.
> To - at least - one recording Mann comes back in "Dr. Faustus": "Mon
> coeur s'ouvre à ta voix". Do you happen to know which particular
> recording Mann had here in mind?
>
> Regards
--E.A.C.
Matthew B. Tepper
> There is a chapter in the memoirs of violinist Joseph Szigeti (_With
> Strings Attached: Reminiscences and Reflections_, New York: Knopf,
> 1947), chapter 16, pp.143-158, in which, among other reflections about
> the history and possible future of recordings, the author gives his
> ideas about which recordings Hans Castorp listens to in that great novel
> by Thomas Mann. (This passage is on pp.152-158 of Szigeti's book.)
>
> The "Largo al factotum" from _Barbiere_ is attributed by Szigeti to a
> recording by Titta Ruffo; the aria from _La traviata_ was, he guesses,
> by either Selma Kurz or Tetrazzini; the excerpts from _Carmen_, _Aida_,
> and _Faust_ were likely those by Caruso and Anton van Rooy (a celebrated
> Wagnerian baritone of the first decade of the last century) -- in
> particular, Schubert's "Der Lindenbaum" was likely by Van Rooy. He even
> quotes a letter to himself from Thomas Mann on this subject, dated 24
> Dec. 1943. Szigeti further speculates that the "idyll, yet _raffiné_,
> shaped and turned with all the subtlety and economy of the most modern
> art" was likely Debussy's _Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune_. And the
> Romance by Anton Rubinstein was likely Szigeti's own early recording of
> that work.
Surely some collector could anthologize these public-domain recordings?
> There is a list of Szigeti's recordings in an appendix to the book,
> though catalogue numbers are given only for his electrical recordings.
> But the appendix does mention the violinist's pre-1914 recordings for
> the Gramophone Company, Ltd. and a Russian label, _Muspred_.
The Gramophone Company recordings were, I believe, CD'd by Biddulph. I've
long drooled over the thought of hearing those Russian ones.
Dan Koren
A chacun son gout (ou degout)
-- note however that "sacred
service" does not rhyme with
"performing art".
dk