Hatto Debussy Etudes not Thiollier
Apologies for starting another Hatto thread but with 60 messages under
Hatto? Ha! people will begin to lose their way.
For some time now Wikipedia, Pristine Audio and other sites following
the Hatto identification process have been listing Thiollier's Debussy
Etudes on Naxos as a source for some or even all of the "Hatto"
performances, as well as Hommage à Haydn. This identification has not been
scientifically investigated by Andrew Rose or any other similarly qualified
person, nor been followed up by any confirmation as to which are or aren't.
On the strength of this I requested a review copy of the Thiollier. In
view of the lapse of time before the review gets written, edited and posted,
I wish to state here and now that I am totally convinced that the Thiollier
is NOT the source for the Hatto Etudes, but it IS the source for Hommage à
Haydn and D'un cahier d'esquisses.
Hattification can increase/decrease the tempi and change the sound
picture, but it cannot change a longish reverberation period into a shorter
one, turn pedalled passages into unpedalled ones, alter dynamics or
accentuation or the rubato with which a phrase is shaped. I have compared
numerous points within the first minute or so of each Etude and the most I
can say is that, while it was usually clear that the performances were quite
different from the very start, in a few cases the conceptions were
sufficiently close to call for more detailed comparisons. Furthermore, while
Thiollier is good, "Hatto" is considerably more perceptive.
I shall not list all my points of comparison either here or in the
review since it would be a long and very technical discussion which only
pianists would fully comprehend, and I will do so only if obliged to by
somebody presenting a reasoned argument as to why he still believes the
source is Thiollier.
So the search is still on, and the matter is of considerable interest
to me since I chose this disc as a Record of the Year and would like the
real performer to have his/her work duly recognized.
The two smaller pieces are fairly straight transfers with the sound
brightened up, rather to its advantage. Each has been lengthened by 2-3
seconds (actual music, discounting silence before and after), so little one
wonders why it was done at all, or could it be a side effect of some other
editing process?
Christopher Howell
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Choosing the Hatto Debussy Etudes as the Recording of the Year and now
telling us that it cannot be Thiollier and that you believe that the
search is still on because it has to be a "considerably more perceptive"
performer ...
Please, continue _your_ search and let us know who this CMP performer is
as soon as you have found him/her.
I'd love to hear the CMP source of the Debussy Etudes if it exists!
Henk
Well, these things are best decided on the evidence, not on what one
wishes. The serious distortions applied by Joyce Hatto and Barrington-
Coupe to Debussy are often disorienting (that's the purpose, I think),
which perhaps explains why Christopher is having doubts.
Best,
MrT
Christopher Howell
Milan
>Christopher Howell
>Milan
Andrew Rose should only be bothered with positive identifications. Ask
him for confirmation as soon as you believe to have found the "real
Hatto". I am looking forward to it!
In the mean time Thiollier remains for me the heavily edited source of
the Hatto CD. I can live with the thought (I would never have chosen the
Hatto CD as Recording of the Year ...).
Besides, I did spend more than one morning to compare several moments in
all the Thiollier and Hatto etudes. I even bought a program to be able
to hear one moment immediately after another, not trusting my musical
memory for more than a second.
BTW, I'll listen tonight to Thibaudet's La plus que lente and Hatto's.
Henk
I think one has to be open-minded. The manipulations applied by WB-C
(or some minion or minions) can be devilish. Of course, with today's
technology, anyone with time can do it. I would welcome anything new
that Christopher uncovers. I have not checked La plus que lente, since
I don't have the Hatto.
Best,
MrT
> I think one has to be open-minded. The manipulations applied by WB-C
> (or some minion or minions) can be devilish. Of course, with today's
> technology, anyone with time can do it. I would welcome anything new
> that Christopher uncovers. I have not checked La plus que lente, since
> I don't have the Hatto.
>
> Best,
>
> MrT
I agree with you about being open-minded. Christopher Howell might find
a more interesting source for his Recording of the Year than the heavily
edited Thiollier, who knows?
If you don't mind I'll send you the Hatto (I'll send it anyway, you can
always delete it!).
Best regards,
Henk
LOL! Another Naxos as Recording of the Year!
Best regards,
Henk
Has anyone investigated Gordon Fergus-Thompson's Debussy set? It was
originally on ASV and re-released on Brilliant. On the re-release, at least,
La plus que lent and the Etudes are on the same disk.
Tom Wood
Best regards,
MrT
Hatto's La plus que lente is a rather superficial interpretation
compared with Thibaudet's. I wonder how Kormendi is. The little that I
did hear on Naxos didn't make a deep impression.
Henk
Yes, it's pretty ordinary. Kormendi right now looks like Hatto, but I
haven't gotten confirmation from Abe yet.
Best,
MrT
Best,
MrT
Hmmm. Following Christopher Howell: "This disc also contains a
performance of La plus que lente which has been widely admired ..." It
seems that Klara Kormendi has many admirers among experts when she is
called Joyce Hatto.
Henk
She has recorded a bunch of Satie for Naxos, but I haven't heard that
cycle. I had her pegged, perhaps wrongly, as a specialist in modern
music, especially Hungarian music. I've never seen her in concert.
That doesn't mean she is not good. As you know, Europe is crawling
with fine musicians, too many for anyone to get to know even with all
the festivals. The excellent Polish Kultura channel shows a lot of
music, including many fine musicians I've never heard of.
Best regards
mrt
Someone told me some time ago that the "Hatto" Debussy etudes actually
were a rip-off of BIS's Yukie Nagai recordings. I haven't been able
to lay my hand on the "Hatto" recording. Could someone check this
(50% of each track of the BIS recordings can be heard for free under
www.bis.se)? Maybe Barrington Cooper (his original name) took a
liking to our piano production...
Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO BIS Records
Someone told me some time ago that the "Hatto" Debussy etudes actually
were a rip-off of BIS's Yukie Nagai recordings. I haven't been able
to lay my hand on the "Hatto" recording. Could someone check this
(50% of each track of the BIS recordings can be heard for free under
www.bis.se)? Maybe Barrington Cooper (his original name) took a
liking to our piano production...
Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO BIS Records
Did Yukie Nagai record the etudes? I'd love to buy the set if she has. I
know that she did record among others the preludes.
Henk
Oh, bugger it. I read etudes, write etudes but mean preludes.
Sorry. No, she didn't record the etudes, but she did record the
Preludes, and someone did tell me that they were Hatto'ed. Can
someone check?
Robert
The "official" solution for the Preludes is Izumi Tateno on Canyon
Classics, at least for Book 1 and Feux d'artifice. But it hasn't been
scientifically checked. I'm trying to get hold of that too. If it
doesn't match, or only partly, Nagai sounds like the next port of
call.
Christopher Howell
Milan
Christopher, the Kormendi is for La plus que lente, not for the
etudes. I listed to a few of those again and what I hear (like Henk)
is Thiollier with distortions. If you find otherwise, please let us
know. The bad thing about these comparisons is that I end up sick of
the piece. And getting sick of Debussy was never in my plans. Be
careful!
Best,
MrT
BTW, hats off for the way Music Web (and Christopher Howell) are
revisiting the "Hattos": facts (even unpleasant ones) instead of an
oratio pro domo.
I have ordered Song's etudes to compare with the Hatto. Samples on
Amazon did remind me somehow of certain moments in the Hatto. it is
worth looking into it.
Henk
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Apr07/Debussy_5_Thiollier_8553294.htm
Included are 2 appendixes, one stating why I am convinced that Hommage
and Cahier are lifted from Thiollier (which I think we all agree
about), the other stating why I am still convinced the Etudes are not.
For each of the Etudes 7-12 I have given at least 5 points, as
specific as I can make them, where I believe that no electronic
trickery could make Thiollier sound like Hatto. A lot of my points
concern pedalling.
There is at least a possibility, in view of the facts emerging about
the Liszt Transcendentals (some pure Simon, some with Nojima for no.5,
some with an unidentified no.12) that not all the Hatto Debussy Etudes
are the same. Without necessarily checking on all my examples, could
someone who still believes it's Thiollier check on maybe just one or
two points I make about the Hatto disc to see if they actually
correspond to their copy of the disc?
Christopher Howell
Best,
MrT
Thanks!! I'll all check your points - and if necessary look further for
a positive identification.
Henk
> MusicWeb has just posted my review of the Thiollier Etudes.
>
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Apr07/Debussy_5_Thiollier_
> 8553294.htm
Interesting, and thanks for the update. However -- ach! "Hatto" may give
Uchida a run for her money? Any of the following are easily preferable
to Uchida:
Ericourt
Boffard
Jacobs
Queffelec
Ju-Ying Song
Loriod
Rosen 1950
Helffer
YMMV.
SE.
DiBonaventura!!
This is really interesting. I know that a person in the USA with whom
WBC corresponded quite a lot (in all innocence on the other party's
side I hasten to add) told him Anthony Di Bonaventura's was his
favourite off-the-beaten-track recording of the Etudes. I suppose not
even WBC would have dared to send his correspondent back a duly
Hattified Di Bonaventura and perhaps he wouldn't have risked Di
Bonaventura at all in the USA. But he'd have been safe enough with me
and probably anyone in Europe. So could it be that some Hattos are
Thiollier and some are Di Bonaventura?
Christopher Howell
Christopher, why don't you post the timings for your issue of the
Hatto etudes? I mean, the timing tha the computer or CD player
actually shows, not what the booklet says... That way, we would have a
clue as to whether we are talking about the same Hattoization or not.
I frankly doubt that there are two completely different sets of
etudes, but you never know.
By the way, I have all the Hatto material on another computer and
haven't been able yet to attend to your specific objections to Hatto
as Thiollier in the etudes.
Best,
MrT
I have been revisiting the Hatto lately, not only to check Christopher's
objections (we all know that there are differences between the Hatto and
its source) but to find out if recordings by others are more close to
the Hatto.
At the moment I am comparing the Hatto with 19 other versions (leaving
out Gieseking). I also ordered every other set that seems to be
available.
Henk
Here we go - from the computer.
1. 3:06
2. 3:39
3. 5:16
4. 4:33
5. 2:49
6. 1:47
7. 2:19
8. 5:27
9. 3:30
10. 5:15
11. 4:41
12. 4:56
Christopher Howell
These are the timings on my Hatto CD too!
Henk
> Any of the following are easily preferable
> > > to Uchida:
> >
> > > Ericourt
> > > Boffard
> > > Jacobs
> > > Queffelec
> > > Ju-Ying Song
> > > Loriod
> > > Rosen 1950
> > > Helffer
> >
> And so might all have to be tested for "Hatto" (except 1950 Rosen,
> it's too old)
Several others can probably be quickly eliminated as candidates too:
Loriod, Helffer, and Queffelec have not been issued on CD.
The Ericourt CDs are in lousy sound, done via an inept transfer-from-LP.
Henk stated previously that Song didn't seem to be the source.
There's no pattern at all of similarity between these Coupester timings
and those of Jacobs (or Pollini DG, Fou Ts'ong, and Uchida). Not that
that fully rules them out, particularly as to the possible use of a few
etudes here or there.
FWIW there is some general similarity with Boffard's -- five of them in
particular (1, 2, 3, 7, 11). (I haven't heard the "Hatto" so can't say
anything beyond that.)
Boffard:
1. 3:00
2. 3:36
3. 5:16
4. 3:52
5. 2:32
6. 1:34
7. 2:16
8. 5:05
9. 3:12
10. 5:29
11. 4:43
12. 4:23
SE.
It seems we're talking about the same CDs then. Really, I think Naxos
themselves might commission some wave-pattern research from Andrew
Rose or a similarly qualified person to settle the matter rather than
hope somebody will do it pro bono. They must surely want to know if
their records have been pinched, and if there's doubt about the Etudes
there are several other Naxos attributions that haven't been
questioned.
Christopher
> FWIW there is some general similarity with Boffard's [timings] --
> five of them in particular (1, 2, 3, 7, 11). (I haven't heard the
> "Hatto" so can't say anything beyond that.)
Since then I've had access to the "Hatto" etudes thanks to a generous
fellow aficionado.
Boffard is not a match in any of the cited etudes; didn't compare
further.
SE.
I can rule out Fou Ts'ong and Uchida for nos. 7-12
Christopher Howell
Best,
MrT
> Steve, have you compared Hatto with Thiollier?
In the Etudes, I just now compared 1, 2, 3, 7, 11, and 12. I didn't
think any were a match.
Did you find some that were?
I'm beginning to see why Christopher was enthusiastic about the "Hatto";
pretty consistently alert.
Regards,
Steve.
I'll rule out Fou for 1-3 also (didn't compare in 4-6).
SE.