Hatto Debussy Etudes not Thiollier
Len of MusicWeb
Hatto Debussy Etudes not Thiollier
Apologies for starting another Hatto thread but with 60 messages under
Hatto? Ha! people will begin to lose their way.
For some time now Wikipedia, Pristine Audio and other sites following
the Hatto identification process have been listing Thiollier's Debussy
Etudes on Naxos as a source for some or even all of the "Hatto"
performances, as well as Hommage à Haydn. This identification has not been
scientifically investigated by Andrew Rose or any other similarly qualified
person, nor been followed up by any confirmation as to which are or aren't.
On the strength of this I requested a review copy of the Thiollier. In
view of the lapse of time before the review gets written, edited and posted,
I wish to state here and now that I am totally convinced that the Thiollier
is NOT the source for the Hatto Etudes, but it IS the source for Hommage à
Haydn and D'un cahier d'esquisses.
Hattification can increase/decrease the tempi and change the sound
picture, but it cannot change a longish reverberation period into a shorter
one, turn pedalled passages into unpedalled ones, alter dynamics or
accentuation or the rubato with which a phrase is shaped. I have compared
numerous points within the first minute or so of each Etude and the most I
can say is that, while it was usually clear that the performances were quite
different from the very start, in a few cases the conceptions were
sufficiently close to call for more detailed comparisons. Furthermore, while
Thiollier is good, "Hatto" is considerably more perceptive.
I shall not list all my points of comparison either here or in the
review since it would be a long and very technical discussion which only
pianists would fully comprehend, and I will do so only if obliged to by
somebody presenting a reasoned argument as to why he still believes the
source is Thiollier.
So the search is still on, and the matter is of considerable interest
to me since I chose this disc as a Record of the Year and would like the
real performer to have his/her work duly recognized.
The two smaller pieces are fairly straight transfers with the sound
brightened up, rather to its advantage. Each has been lengthened by 2-3
seconds (actual music, discounting silence before and after), so little one
wonders why it was done at all, or could it be a side effect of some other
editing process?
Christopher Howell
......................................................................
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Henk van Tuijl
"Len of MusicWeb" <zen2...@zen.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:45fea8d3$0$27102$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
Choosing the Hatto Debussy Etudes as the Recording of the Year and now
telling us that it cannot be Thiollier and that you believe that the
search is still on because it has to be a "considerably more perceptive"
performer ...
Please, continue _your_ search and let us know who this CMP performer is
as soon as you have found him/her.
I'd love to hear the CMP source of the Debussy Etudes if it exists!
Henk
MrT
> "Len of MusicWeb" <zen22...@zen.co.uk> schreef in berichtnews:45fea8d3$0$27102$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
> Choosing the Hatto Debussy Etudes as the Recording of the Year and now
> telling us that it cannot be Thiollier and that you believe that the
> search is still on because it has to be a "considerably more perceptive"
> performer ...
>
> Please, continue _your_ search and let us know who this CMP performer is
> as soon as you have found him/her.
>
> I'd love to hear the CMP source of the Debussy Etudes if it exists!
Well, these things are best decided on the evidence, not on what one
wishes. The serious distortions applied by Joyce Hatto and Barrington-
Coupe to Debussy are often disorienting (that's the purpose, I think),
which perhaps explains why Christopher is having doubts.
Best,
MrT
ckho...@ckhowell.com
I trust you have both not only heard the Thiollier and the Hatto but
have spent, as I have, the best part of a morning comparing each
study, looking for specific points (pedalling, accentuation, rubato
etc) that would have to be the same even if speeded up/slowed down.
I have already gone through the Indjic/"Hatto" Mazurkas and the
Aspaas/"Hatto" Dukas in this way and my ears have confirmed the match.
These reports were sent to MusicWeb last week and will be posted soon
so I won't go into detail. My ears also confirmed Hommage à Haydn and
D'un cahier. If these same ears report that the Debussy Etudes are
different, you might allow the possibility that they could be right.
For the record, no.12 is the one I found hardest to decide. This is
not one of the records that has been scientifically investigated as
yet.
I hoped to be spared the necessity of writing a detailed report which
would of necessity be technical and comprehensible only to those with
scores but it looks as if I might have to do so. I have written to
Andrew Rose offering to send him a CDR of this disc. If he is willing
to do his stuff perhaps you will accept his findings if not mine.
In the meantime, could you please explain the technology by which WBC
or anyone else can so transform a passage played by Thiollier as a sea
of pedal that it sounds as if "Hatto" had played it with perfect
clarity. He'd have to scrub clean every single note. I'm not talking
about pedalling through rests, which could be removed. It might be
possible to add fake "pedalling" but I don't believe you can take it
away.
The same goes for the reverberation period - the Thiollier was
recorded in a church. You could lengthen it by trickery, but the
"Hatto" has it shorter. Again, I'm not talking about pauses.
Similarly, do you really believe WBC or anyone else would have applied
time stretching/shrinking to individual pairs of notes, one by one, to
change the pianist's rubato?
Intervention at this level has not so far been reported elsewhere.
Just a thought. This disc also contains a performance of La plus que
lente which has been widely admired and not so far identified. How
about taking a special look at sets of Etudes that have La plus que
lente as one of the fillers?
Christopher Howell
Milan
Henk van Tuijl
<ckho...@ckhowell.com> schreef in bericht
news:1174375211....@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>Christopher Howell
>Milan
Andrew Rose should only be bothered with positive identifications. Ask
him for confirmation as soon as you believe to have found the "real
Hatto". I am looking forward to it!
In the mean time Thiollier remains for me the heavily edited source of
the Hatto CD. I can live with the thought (I would never have chosen the
Hatto CD as Recording of the Year ...).
Besides, I did spend more than one morning to compare several moments in
all the Thiollier and Hatto etudes. I even bought a program to be able
to hear one moment immediately after another, not trusting my musical
memory for more than a second.
BTW, I'll listen tonight to Thibaudet's La plus que lente and Hatto's.
Henk
MrT
> <ckhow...@ckhowell.com> schreef in berichtnews:1174375211....@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> Andrew Rose should only be bothered with positive identifications. Ask
> him for confirmation as soon as you believe to have found the "real
> Hatto". I am looking forward to it!
>
> In the mean time Thiollier remains for me the heavily edited source of
> the Hatto CD. I can live with the thought (I would never have chosen the
> Hatto CD as Recording of the Year ...).
>
> Besides, I did spend more than one morning to compare several moments in
> all the Thiollier and Hatto etudes. I even bought a program to be able
> to hear one moment immediately after another, not trusting my musical
> memory for more than a second.
>
> BTW, I'll listen tonight to Thibaudet's La plus que lente and Hatto's.
I think one has to be open-minded. The manipulations applied by WB-C
(or some minion or minions) can be devilish. Of course, with today's
technology, anyone with time can do it. I would welcome anything new
that Christopher uncovers. I have not checked La plus que lente, since
I don't have the Hatto.
Best,
MrT
Henk van Tuijl
"MrT" <symbi...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:1174391642.7...@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> I think one has to be open-minded. The manipulations applied by WB-C
> (or some minion or minions) can be devilish. Of course, with today's
> technology, anyone with time can do it. I would welcome anything new
> that Christopher uncovers. I have not checked La plus que lente, since
> I don't have the Hatto.
>
> Best,
>
> MrT
I agree with you about being open-minded. Christopher Howell might find
a more interesting source for his Recording of the Year than the heavily
edited Thiollier, who knows?
If you don't mind I'll send you the Hatto (I'll send it anyway, you can
always delete it!).
Best regards,
Henk
Henk van Tuijl
> Thank you, Henk. From a sample available on the Internet, I think this
> might very well be Klara Kormendi on Naxos (an old CD, I don't know if
> it is still available. Unfortunately, I no longer have it). I sent the
> Hatto to Abe Schwartz, who will do a more careful comparison later
> today.
>
> Best,
>
> MrT
LOL! Another Naxos as Recording of the Year!
Best regards,
Henk
Thomas Wood
"Henk van Tuijl" <hvt...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:45ffa282$0$327$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
>
>
> Andrew Rose should only be bothered with positive identifications. Ask him
> for confirmation as soon as you believe to have found the "real Hatto". I
> am looking forward to it!
>
> In the mean time Thiollier remains for me the heavily edited source of the
> Hatto CD. I can live with the thought (I would never have chosen the Hatto
> CD as Recording of the Year ...).
>
> Besides, I did spend more than one morning to compare several moments in
> all the Thiollier and Hatto etudes. I even bought a program to be able to
> hear one moment immediately after another, not trusting my musical memory
> for more than a second.
>
> BTW, I'll listen tonight to Thibaudet's La plus que lente and Hatto's.
>
Has anyone investigated Gordon Fergus-Thompson's Debussy set? It was
originally on ASV and re-released on Brilliant. On the re-release, at least,
La plus que lent and the Etudes are on the same disk.
Tom Wood
MrT
> Has anyone investigated Gordon Fergus-Thompson's Debussy set? It was
> originally on ASV and re-released on Brilliant. On the re-release, at least,
> La plus que lent and the Etudes are on the same disk.
>
Martin Jones (on Nimbus). This is one case where the acoustic
ambience, ahem, could give away the game. And speaking of Jones, what
became of him? In the early days of the CD he seemed to be recording
everything, then silence (at least on recordings).
Best regards,
MrT
Henk van Tuijl
news:1174401627.0...@e1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Thank you, Henk. From a sample available on the Internet, I think this
> might very well be Klara Kormendi on Naxos (an old CD, I don't know if
> it is still available. Unfortunately, I no longer have it). I sent the
> Hatto to Abe Schwartz, who will do a more careful comparison later
> today.
>
> Best,
>
> MrT
Hatto's La plus que lente is a rather superficial interpretation
compared with Thibaudet's. I wonder how Kormendi is. The little that I
did hear on Naxos didn't make a deep impression.
Henk
MrT
> Hatto's La plus que lente is a rather superficial interpretation
> compared with Thibaudet's. I wonder how Kormendi is. The little that I
> did hear on Naxos didn't make a deep impression.
>
Yes, it's pretty ordinary. Kormendi right now looks like Hatto, but I
haven't gotten confirmation from Abe yet.
Best,
MrT
MrT
Klara Körmendi "La plus que lente" match. He did it purely by ear by
repeated listening over a couple of days. He did comment that he was
puzzled by what sounded like a coughing fit in the Kormendi recording
(at between 44 and 46 seconds into the piece) but were absent in the
Hatto. Based on comparing the first minute of both recordings, I have
no doubt that they are the same. Perhaps Christopher wants to check
what seems to some of us like a clear match, or enlist Andrew to check
it out with wave analysis software.
Best,
MrT
Henk van Tuijl
Hmmm. Following Christopher Howell: "This disc also contains a
performance of La plus que lente which has been widely admired ..." It
seems that Klara Kormendi has many admirers among experts when she is
called Joyce Hatto.
Henk
MrT
> Hmmm. Following Christopher Howell: "This disc also contains a
> performance of La plus que lente which has been widely admired ..." It
> seems that Klara Kormendi has many admirers among experts when she is
> called Joyce Hatto.
She has recorded a bunch of Satie for Naxos, but I haven't heard that
cycle. I had her pegged, perhaps wrongly, as a specialist in modern
music, especially Hungarian music. I've never seen her in concert.
That doesn't mean she is not good. As you know, Europe is crawling
with fine musicians, too many for anyone to get to know even with all
the festivals. The excellent Polish Kultura channel shows a lot of
music, including many fine musicians I've never heard of.
Best regards
mrt
bisr...@compuserve.com
> "Len of MusicWeb" <zen22...@zen.co.uk> schreef in berichtnews:45fea8d3$0$27102$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> - Visa citerad text -
Someone told me some time ago that the "Hatto" Debussy etudes actually
were a rip-off of BIS's Yukie Nagai recordings. I haven't been able
to lay my hand on the "Hatto" recording. Could someone check this
(50% of each track of the BIS recordings can be heard for free under
www.bis.se)? Maybe Barrington Cooper (his original name) took a
liking to our piano production...
Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO BIS Records
Henk van Tuijl
<bisr...@compuserve.com> schreef in bericht
news:1174754362.1...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Someone told me some time ago that the "Hatto" Debussy etudes actually
were a rip-off of BIS's Yukie Nagai recordings. I haven't been able
to lay my hand on the "Hatto" recording. Could someone check this
(50% of each track of the BIS recordings can be heard for free under
www.bis.se)? Maybe Barrington Cooper (his original name) took a
liking to our piano production...
Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO BIS Records
Did Yukie Nagai record the etudes? I'd love to buy the set if she has. I
know that she did record among others the preludes.
Henk
bisr...@compuserve.com
> <bisrob...@compuserve.com> schreef in berichtnews:1174754362.1...@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> Someone told me some time ago that the "Hatto" Debussy etudes actually
> were a rip-off of BIS's Yukie Nagai recordings. I haven't been able
> to lay my hand on the "Hatto" recording. Could someone check this
> liking to our piano production...
>
> Best - Robert von Bahr, CEO BIS Records
>
> Did Yukie Nagai record the etudes? I'd love to buy the set if she has. I
> know that she did record among others the preludes.
>
> Henk
Oh, bugger it. I read etudes, write etudes but mean preludes.
Sorry. No, she didn't record the etudes, but she did record the
Preludes, and someone did tell me that they were Hatto'ed. Can
someone check?
Robert
ckho...@ckhowell.com
Slightly less promisingly, it doesn't seem to be available but I hope
to get hold of it somehow. La plus que lente seems to be available in
a Debussy compilation and also a Debussy/Ravel compilation, so I can
at any rate start there.
The "official" solution for the Preludes is Izumi Tateno on Canyon
Classics, at least for Book 1 and Feux d'artifice. But it hasn't been
scientifically checked. I'm trying to get hold of that too. If it
doesn't match, or only partly, Nagai sounds like the next port of
call.
Christopher Howell
Milan
MrT
Christopher, the Kormendi is for La plus que lente, not for the
etudes. I listed to a few of those again and what I hear (like Henk)
is Thiollier with distortions. If you find otherwise, please let us
know. The bad thing about these comparisons is that I end up sick of
the piece. And getting sick of Debussy was never in my plans. Be
careful!
Best,
MrT
Henk van Tuijl
BTW, hats off for the way Music Web (and Christopher Howell) are
revisiting the "Hattos": facts (even unpleasant ones) instead of an
oratio pro domo.
I have ordered Song's etudes to compare with the Hatto. Samples on
Amazon did remind me somehow of certain moments in the Hatto. it is
worth looking into it.
Henk
ckho...@ckhowell.com
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Apr07/Debussy_5_Thiollier_8553294.htm
Included are 2 appendixes, one stating why I am convinced that Hommage
and Cahier are lifted from Thiollier (which I think we all agree
about), the other stating why I am still convinced the Etudes are not.
For each of the Etudes 7-12 I have given at least 5 points, as
specific as I can make them, where I believe that no electronic
trickery could make Thiollier sound like Hatto. A lot of my points
concern pedalling.
There is at least a possibility, in view of the facts emerging about
the Liszt Transcendentals (some pure Simon, some with Nojima for no.5,
some with an unidentified no.12) that not all the Hatto Debussy Etudes
are the same. Without necessarily checking on all my examples, could
someone who still believes it's Thiollier check on maybe just one or
two points I make about the Hatto disc to see if they actually
correspond to their copy of the disc?
Christopher Howell
MrT
One of the unfortunate consequences of this identification game is
that I get somewhat sick of the music for a while. Sort of like waking
up in the morning, taking a look and ohmygod sameold sameold... it
passes, though.
Best,
MrT
Henk van Tuijl
<ckho...@ckhowell.com> schreef in bericht
news:1176059398.2...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Thanks!! I'll all check your points - and if necessary look further for
a positive identification.
Henk
Steve Emerson
ckho...@ckhowell.com wrote:
> MusicWeb has just posted my review of the Thiollier Etudes.
>
> http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Apr07/Debussy_5_Thiollier_
> 8553294.htm
Interesting, and thanks for the update. However -- ach! "Hatto" may give
Uchida a run for her money? Any of the following are easily preferable
to Uchida:
Ericourt
Boffard
Jacobs
Queffelec
Ju-Ying Song
Loriod
Rosen 1950
Helffer
YMMV.
SE.
JohnGavin
> In article <1176059398.252128.307...@y80g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,> >http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Apr07/Debussy_5_T...
> > 8553294.htm
>
> Interesting, and thanks for the update. However -- ach! "Hatto" may give
> Uchida a run for her money? Any of the following are easily preferable
> to Uchida:
>
> Ericourt
> Boffard
> Jacobs
> Queffelec
> Ju-Ying Song
> Loriod
> Rosen 1950
> Helffer
>
> YMMV.
>
> SE.
DiBonaventura!!
ckho...@ckhowell.com
> > to Uchida:
>
> > Ericourt
> > Boffard
> > Jacobs
> > Queffelec
> > Ju-Ying Song
> > Loriod
> > Rosen 1950
> > Helffer
>
it's too old)
>
> DiBonaventura!!
This is really interesting. I know that a person in the USA with whom
WBC corresponded quite a lot (in all innocence on the other party's
side I hasten to add) told him Anthony Di Bonaventura's was his
favourite off-the-beaten-track recording of the Etudes. I suppose not
even WBC would have dared to send his correspondent back a duly
Hattified Di Bonaventura and perhaps he wouldn't have risked Di
Bonaventura at all in the USA. But he'd have been safe enough with me
and probably anyone in Europe. So could it be that some Hattos are
Thiollier and some are Di Bonaventura?
Christopher Howell
MrT
> This is really interesting. I know that a person in the USA with whom
> WBC corresponded quite a lot (in all innocence on the other party's
> side I hasten to add) told him Anthony Di Bonaventura's was his
> favourite off-the-beaten-track recording of the Etudes. I suppose not
> even WBC would have dared to send his correspondent back a duly
> Hattified Di Bonaventura and perhaps he wouldn't have risked Di
> Bonaventura at all in the USA. But he'd have been safe enough with me
> and probably anyone in Europe. So could it be that some Hattos are
> Thiollier and some are Di Bonaventura?
> Christopher Howell
Christopher, why don't you post the timings for your issue of the
Hatto etudes? I mean, the timing tha the computer or CD player
actually shows, not what the booklet says... That way, we would have a
clue as to whether we are talking about the same Hattoization or not.
I frankly doubt that there are two completely different sets of
etudes, but you never know.
By the way, I have all the Hatto material on another computer and
haven't been able yet to attend to your specific objections to Hatto
as Thiollier in the etudes.
Best,
MrT
Henk van Tuijl
I have been revisiting the Hatto lately, not only to check Christopher's
objections (we all know that there are differences between the Hatto and
its source) but to find out if recordings by others are more close to
the Hatto.
At the moment I am comparing the Hatto with 19 other versions (leaving
out Gieseking). I also ordered every other set that seems to be
available.
Henk
ckho...@ckhowell.com
> Hatto etudes?
Here we go - from the computer.
1. 3:06
2. 3:39
3. 5:16
4. 4:33
5. 2:49
6. 1:47
7. 2:19
8. 5:27
9. 3:30
10. 5:15
11. 4:41
12. 4:56
Christopher Howell
Henk van Tuijl
<ckho...@ckhowell.com> schreef in bericht
news:1176483627.0...@l77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
These are the timings on my Hatto CD too!
Henk
Steve Emerson
> Any of the following are easily preferable
> > > to Uchida:
> >
> > > Ericourt
> > > Boffard
> > > Jacobs
> > > Queffelec
> > > Ju-Ying Song
> > > Loriod
> > > Rosen 1950
> > > Helffer
> >
> And so might all have to be tested for "Hatto" (except 1950 Rosen,
> it's too old)
Several others can probably be quickly eliminated as candidates too:
Loriod, Helffer, and Queffelec have not been issued on CD.
The Ericourt CDs are in lousy sound, done via an inept transfer-from-LP.
Henk stated previously that Song didn't seem to be the source.
There's no pattern at all of similarity between these Coupester timings
and those of Jacobs (or Pollini DG, Fou Ts'ong, and Uchida). Not that
that fully rules them out, particularly as to the possible use of a few
etudes here or there.
FWIW there is some general similarity with Boffard's -- five of them in
particular (1, 2, 3, 7, 11). (I haven't heard the "Hatto" so can't say
anything beyond that.)
Boffard:
1. 3:00
2. 3:36
3. 5:16
4. 3:52
5. 2:32
6. 1:34
7. 2:16
8. 5:05
9. 3:12
10. 5:29
11. 4:43
12. 4:23
SE.
ckho...@ckhowell.com
> These are the timings on my Hatto CD too!
>
It seems we're talking about the same CDs then. Really, I think Naxos
themselves might commission some wave-pattern research from Andrew
Rose or a similarly qualified person to settle the matter rather than
hope somebody will do it pro bono. They must surely want to know if
their records have been pinched, and if there's doubt about the Etudes
there are several other Naxos attributions that haven't been
questioned.
Christopher
Steve Emerson
> FWIW there is some general similarity with Boffard's [timings] --
> five of them in particular (1, 2, 3, 7, 11). (I haven't heard the
> "Hatto" so can't say anything beyond that.)
Since then I've had access to the "Hatto" etudes thanks to a generous
fellow aficionado.
Boffard is not a match in any of the cited etudes; didn't compare
further.
SE.
ckho...@ckhowell.com
> and those of Jacobs (or Pollini DG, Fou Ts'ong, and Uchida). Not that
> that fully rules them out, particularly as to the possible use of a few
> etudes here or there.
I can rule out Fou Ts'ong and Uchida for nos. 7-12
Christopher Howell
MrT
Best,
MrT
Steve Emerson
"MrT" <symbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Steve, have you compared Hatto with Thiollier?
In the Etudes, I just now compared 1, 2, 3, 7, 11, and 12. I didn't
think any were a match.
Did you find some that were?
I'm beginning to see why Christopher was enthusiastic about the "Hatto";
pretty consistently alert.
Regards,
Steve.
Steve Emerson
ckho...@ckhowell.com wrote:
I'll rule out Fou for 1-3 also (didn't compare in 4-6).
SE.